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Thursday, February 28, 2013

[OTP - March] Scott wants money for spring training teams

While working at the Detroit Tigers’ spring facility in Lakeland, Gov. Rick Scott announced today he will ask the Florida Legislature to set aside $5 million a year for projects specifically aimed at improving the Major League Baseball training facilities in the state.

“It’s my job as governor to make sure Florida remains the number one destination for spring training and that is why we will work to provide $5 million annually to only be used for spring training facilities,” Scott said in a statement that was released while Scott was participating in one of his “work days” with the Tigers at Joker Marchant Stadium in Lakeland.

Tripon Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:05 PM | 2909 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baseball, florida, ot, politics, spring training

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   1801. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4392755)

Why is a conversation "diverting attention away from" anything? The rapists were tried and convicted of rape. Why would repeating those facts over and over again be even vaguely interesting?

Why would repeating that the girl acted somewhat foolishly over and over again be even vaguely interesting.
   1802. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4392758)
If my positions are sexism
Maybe you just did it out of sheer trolldom, but ffs Sam-- this whole subthread started because you just could not resist mentioning the victim's culpability in the assault. You may not think of yourself as sexist, your wife may console you at the end of the day by telling you that you're not a sexist in her eyes, but in your public presentation of self in this thread, you come off like a sexist, no matter what rhetoric you try to cloak it in.
   1803. DevilInABlueCap Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4392759)
Reposted for the flip:

The discussion went on as I wrote that long comment. To help with the newer posts:

Ways Women Can Not Be Raped:
*Don't drink when you're around rapists
*Don't date rapists
*Don't marry rapists
*Don't walk with rapists
*Don't let rapists into your house
*Don't spend time with rapists at night
*Don't spend time with rapists during the day
*Don't befriend rapists
*Don't ignore or condescend to rapists (they take it really badly, and then try to rape you)
*Don't be lesbian and near a rapist (correctional rape)
*Don't be straight and near a rapist
*Don't be bi and near a rapist (with how you'll have sex with either gender, it creates confusion as to why you are not accepting sex with them, as they are of a gender)
*Don't wear revealing clothes around a rapist
*Don't wear concealing clothes around a rapist
*Don't be a teenager around a rapist
*Don't be an old lady around a rapist
*Don't be female around a rapist

That's not a comprehensive list, but you guys are definitely capable of adding on!
   1804. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4392760)
Why would repeating that the girl acted somewhat foolishly over and over again be even vaguely interesting.


On the merits, it's not. It's only interesting in that it's something we are told we are forbidden to say, and I don't like being told that I'm forbidden to state things that are true. (Or false, for that matter, but still, in this case, true.)
   1805. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4392761)
(I guess legitimate would have given the game away) and a general tenor to the proceedings that seems to prize men's right not to be called rapists (even when convicted) over women's right not to be raped. Or, worse, equates a false accusation (rare) to a real rape (common). Because rape is about a ruined reputation or something, instead of a complete violation of bodily autonomy.

Accepting your interpretation of the tenor of the discussion, those are false choices. Both are important. I ranked them above, and will stick with that ranking, but you seem to be severely reducing the importance of due process, clear standards separating crime from non-crime, fair trials, prison, and reputational harm.

What do you mean by "rare" in describing false accusations? A single false accusation is an outrage, a man being imprisoned on a false accusation is grotesque.

Unless you're a child, you (general "you") should know what sexual consent looks like, and if you're unsure (blurred lines, and all that idiocy), then one might look back at your sexual encounters and wonder if you had consent (if you didn't, I'm sorry to say, you raped someone).

The Steubenville defendants were children. What's the dividing line here -- puberty?

   1806. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4392762)
Why would repeating that the girl acted somewhat foolishly over and over again be even vaguely interesting.


It's only being "repeated over and over again" because it's being met with resistance over and over again.

Unlike the statement that the two boys in this case were rightfully tried as they should have been. None of us are pushing back against that, so it isn't being repeated over and over again. So you think it's being ignored, or not noticed, or something.
   1807. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4392763)
Why is a conversation "diverting attention away from" anything? The rapists were tried and convicted of rape. Why would repeating those facts over and over again be even vaguely interesting?
Why did you feel the need to bring up the victim's actions? I would be happy to hear "I was just being a troll" as the genuine answer; it's way better than the alternative.
   1808. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4392764)
Maybe you just did it out of sheer trolldom, but ffs Sam-- this whole subthread started because you just could not resist mentioning the victim's culpability in the assault. You may not think of yourself as sexist, your wife may console you at the end of the day by telling you that you're not a sexist in her eyes, but in your public presentation of self in this thread, you come off like a sexist, no matter what rhetoric you try to cloak it in.


That would seem to me to indicate an overly sensitive perception. Now you may respond that perception is reality if you like, and I'll cop that easily enough, but no. You're still wrong.
   1809. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4392766)
Why did you feel the need to bring up the victim's actions?


It's the only conversation on this subject that would be even remotely interesting. "Bad rapists are bad" isn't terribly compelling internet theater.
   1810. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4392768)
and I don't like being told that I'm forbidden to state things that are true.
Get over yourself. No one's "forbidding" you from saying anything. They're claiming that your utterances have effects-- one of those effects is that you shift focus to the victim, and away from the perpetrator. Another effect is that you come off like a garden-variety sexist #######.
   1811. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4392770)
"Bad rapists are bad" isn't terribly compelling internet theater.
Trolling it is, then.
   1812. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4392771)
"Bad rapists are bad" isn't terribly compelling internet theater.


And yet there are plenty of people who are willing to defend rapists, to deflect blame from them, to justify their actions, to fault women for bringing up the matter, etc. etc. How about discussing that?
   1813. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4392772)
They're claiming that your utterances have effects-- one of those effects is that you shift focus to the victim, and away from the perpetrator.


Nothing anyone has said on this thread has had any impact whatsoever on the lives of either victim or perpetrator.

Another effect is that you come off like a garden-variety sexist #######.


It's a false conclusion if so, but you know, eggs, omelettes, etc.
   1814. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4392774)
Nothing anyone has said on this thread has had any impact whatsoever on the lives of either victim or perpetrator.
You're twisting in a lot of strange contortions to avoid admitting a mistake.
Edit: This is a public forum where rape is being discussed, and you decided in your admittedly uninformed commentary on the incident to make it about the victim. But you really didn't want to make it about her-- you wanted to make it about Sam and his willingness to hold bold opinions. Unfortunately, this bold opinion has the demerit of also being a valueless one, not worthy of expression.
   1815. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4392775)
The problem is focusing responsibility on the victim, rather than on the rapist.
Yes. The idea has been beat to death and largely agreed upon but... this isn't some zero-sum game of blame here - she needs to be responsible enough not to get herself in this situation (question: how would reactions differ if this was a guy who got blitzed and had stuff happen to him), but in no way is it her _fault_ that this happened.

The quicker everyone drops the phrase 'rape culture', the better IMO. Dp’s 1760 sums this stuff up nicely.

it is always, always, always about how we make women less rape-able rather than rapists more easily caught.

It's about - and should be about - how to make rape less frequent. Making it easier to catch rapists - a step there (yes, we need to protect the rights of those accused as well). Making women "less rape-able" - a step there (this should mean giving agency, not blaming them proactively) . Ensuring people understand that assaulting someone is not acceptable - a bigger step. Part of that is calling ######## on stuff like what Sam is saying, which I think is perilously close to 'boys will be boys', whether he thinks so or not. It is a reasonable expectation that a teenager, that an adult will not engage in this sort of behavior, will not be tempted to.

***

I'm sorry that you don't have faith in people, snapper - or (if I read you correctly) love for humanity, DevilInABlueCap - I find them, with all their faults and venality and inconstancy, a source of comfort and love and the possibility of redemption that exceeds whatever someone else might come up with.
   1816. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4392776)
Trolling it is, then


By this definition, there is nothing on any of these threads, by any contributor, that isn't "trolling."

And yet there are plenty of people who are willing to defend rapists, to deflect blame from them, to justify their actions, to fault women for bringing up the matter, etc. etc. How about discussing that?


Where does this alleged behavior occur? Is there another thread, or is it one of those super creepy sub-Reditts or something?
   1817. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4392777)
And yet there are plenty of people who are willing to defend rapists, to deflect blame from them, to justify their actions, to fault women for bringing up the matter, etc. etc.

Who?
   1818. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4392778)
This thread has left me with the strong feeling I don't want to be part of this community. I'm honestly not sure I can stay on the main board after reading this. Jesus.
   1819. DevilInABlueCap Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4392779)
Accepting your interpretation of the tenor of the discussion, those are false choices. Both are important. I ranked them above, and will stick with that ranking, but you seem to be severely reducing the importance of due process, clear standards separating crime from non-crime, fair trials, prison, and reputational harm.

What do you mean by "rare" in describing false accusations? A single false accusation is an outrage, a man being imprisoned on a false accusation is grotesque.


Men who will serve time in prison for rape are a very, very, very small group. Of that group, the chance that they are falsely accused is minute. All of them got fair trials. (Unless we're arguing that the justice system itself is so warped as to be meaningless, which is a different discussion.)

Rape is not rare. It is not equivalent. These issues are not the same. It's like comparing casualties from drone strikes to the Rwandan genocide. "People are dying!" "There's something called scale."

The Steubenville defendants were children. What's the dividing line here -- puberty?

If you're starting to think about sex as something you want/participate in, you should know what sexual consent looks like. Not knowing yet acting is a crime. You should try to be aware of what crimes are and how not to commit them. It's not especially difficult. The rules we teach kindergarteners hold up amazingly well: don't touch someone unless they say it's ok. Just like we tell children not to touch strangers, and to ask first if we can pet dogs.
   1820. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4392780)
This thread has left me with the strong feeling I don't want to be part of this community. I'm honestly not sure I can stay on the main board after reading this. Jesus.


Why?
   1821. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4392785)
I don't like being told that I'm forbidden to state things that are true.
Internet punditry is real victim of rape.
   1822. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4392786)
Because of the horrific rape apologias passed off as acceptable discourse.

I'm honestly too angry and disturbed to respond.

I feel like there was a time when BTF wasn't a men's rights activists watering hole with a little baseball discussion on the side, but maybe I was always kidding myself. Either way, I don't know how much of this place is worth my time.
   1823. Lassus Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4392788)
Go read the child support thread, you'll feel better.
   1824. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4392789)
Of that group, the chance that they are falsely accused is minute.


False accusations are extremely rare. If the victim names names, it's almost certainly not a false flag. False reports are more common, but are more often than not false reports refuse to name the rapist. It's part of the investigative process to get the victim to name her assailant before proceeding because a false accusation by name is so uncommon.
   1825. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4392791)
An anecdote:

When I was 19, I helped a guy I didn't know move a couch into his apartment. After we got it in there, he asked if I wanted a glass of water - I said 'sure' (I'd spent the previous three hours playing basketball and was about to go home, the last guy on the court, when he asked). I heard a strange sound coming from the adjacent room and checked it out - it was a TV showing porn. There was a loud click from the living room, the front door locking, and he returned 'demanding service'. It took a few minutes, but I eventually escaped out a window, nothing having happened up to that point that was worse than having been pinned down as I struggled and getting kissed on the stomach and such against my will... which was bad enough. I was sexually assaulted, I was not raped.

I remember blindly wandering back to my girlfriend's dorm room, feeling ###### up and cold and confused and angry and lost. The rest of that summer is still kind of a blur to me - I went through the motions in class, at work, with people - clocking in and out of life, but not engaged with anything. There was a poster of the guy who did this to me in the student union (I was a night manager there), the university triumphed him as a success story in adult education, and I'd fill with revulsion every time I saw it, but I never reported him or "did" anything about what happened to me.

I don't claim that this gives me special insight or that my opinion on this is any more meaningful than anyone else's. I presume most of us do in fact know someone, likely someone we're close to, who has been raped (I've known a few). But, it does allow me to say that at least one person who’ll admit to being a victim in this arena (independent of what that signifies in terms of gender) finds some of the talk here at best, callous – the kind of callous that could drive really good posters like Matt from a board, or others not to post in the first place. Which I think is a mistake - if you want a better world (or forum), do things to help it get there, speak out.
   1826. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4392794)
I'm honestly too angry and disturbed to respond.


Odd. Try to calm down and come back to it. No subject or conversation should be out of bounds for open discourse.
   1827. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4392795)
By this definition, there is nothing on any of these threads, by any contributor, that isn't "trolling."
In an attempt to say something "interesting" (by which, I assume you meant something "inciting"), you took an incredibly sexist position. That fits with your schtick of having to out-everything everyone constantly, but recognize that in this situation, your need to indulge your ego was not your friend, and learn a lesson. You might even try admitting the post was a mistake, if that wouldn't damage the old ego too much.

Mission accomplished, though!
   1828. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4392797)
if you want a better world (or forum), do things to help it get there, speak out.
Well, I can make better fora elsewhere or do other things. I participated in the Starlin Castro thread and the child support thread, and I was horrified enough. This is the last straw. It's just not worth it.
   1829. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4392799)
Internet punditry is real victim of rape.


Punditry? I've arrived, apparently.
   1830. DevilInABlueCap Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4392800)
   1831. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4392802)
The idea has been beat to death and largely agreed upon but... this isn't some zero-sum game of blame here - she needs to be responsible enough not to get herself in this situation (question: how would reactions differ if this was a guy who got blitzed and had stuff happen to him), but in no way is it her _fault_ that this happened.
I know Sam a little, and I'm certain he's not on the side of rapists. But he's repeating their defense, and that's a problem because when you make the point that the victim's actions were stupid, there's a pretty significant contingent of the population — on both sides of the argument — who see it as legitimizing "she had it coming," or at the very least see that as a legit mitigating circumstance.
   1832. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4392806)
I know Sam a little, and he's clearly not on the side of rapists. But he's repeating their defense, and that's a problem.

Agreed on both.
   1833. DevilInABlueCap Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4392808)
Well, I can make better fora elsewhere or do other things. I participated in the Starlin Castro thread and the child support thread, and I was horrified enough. This is the last straw. It's just not worth it.


As a longtime lurker and only some time poster, I will so deeply miss your contributions. It's you and participation like yours that has made this forum worthwhile, IMHO. I hope that this discussion changes its tone and calibre in a way that makes you reconsider.
   1834. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4392809)
I feel like there was a time when BTF wasn't a men's rights activists watering hole with a little baseball discussion on the side, but maybe I was always kidding myself. Either way, I don't know how much of this place is worth my time.


You're not alone, Matt.
   1835. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4392815)
Rape is not rare. It is not equivalent. These issues are not the same.

Quite right, and they differ in that one involves private conduct, the other the power of the state. The fact that they aren't really comparable is precisely why it's a false choice to be asked to choose between the two.

You can always come up with some private outrage that's worse than the state unjustly punishing someone -- "Hey, why should we care if that guy was executed even though he wasn't guilty, do you know how many kids are starving in India???" It doesn't even have to be private-public -- "Hey, who cares if that guy was executed even though he wasn't guilty, what about all the murdered children in Iraq???"
   1836. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4392817)
The straw factory reopened for business!
   1837. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4392820)
I feel like there was a time when BTF wasn't a men's rights activists watering hole with a little baseball discussion on the side

I don't think that's the dominant voice in these threads - though it is enough of one and its tenor shrill and occasionally offensive enough - that I post in the political stuff less often than I used to (which, yes, runs counter to my previous point).
   1838. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4392822)
Because of the horrific rape apologias passed off as acceptable discourse.


In general, the really creepy stuff has come from the guys who usually stake out really creepy positions, no? I guess the really obvious exception has been Sam, just for the sake of being Captain Iconoclast or something sad like that.
   1839. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4392823)
Well, I can make better fora elsewhere or do other things. I participated in the Starlin Castro thread and the child support thread, and I was horrified enough. This is the last straw. It's just not worth it.


MCOA,

You get to feel what you feel and it is of course OK. As I said before this board should be fun, and if it isn't then change something. Selfishly I want you to stick around because I think you are a very good poster and add to the discussion and make it more fun for me.

I think there are valuable chunks even in a thread that I find overall unpleasant (whcih I find this one I admit). It is not one of the few topics I flat refuse to talk about though so I am here, but we are different (obviously).

My suggestion is you should take a break and come back later, but again there is some selfishness because I like you as a poster.

And to the extent I have made this thread worse for you I am am sorry for that.

   1840. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4392825)
I think the problem with focusing so much on the fact that the victim did something "wrong" (she didn't, she did something mildly foolish that many people - including no doubt many in this thread - have done without any significant negative repercussions), is that it comes awfully close to portraying rape as some force of nature that we all just need to accept. This in some ways leads to young men not feeling terribly bad about doing these sorts of things to a really drunk girl. Again, not sure how many of you have watched the video I posted in 1649 (where the drunk 16 year old football players, unlike Morty and SBB, seem to have no trouble recognizing that what just occurred was rape), but the lead jackass there definitely says "It's her own fault she got so drunk."

After the rape accusations were filed this girl was inundated by comments directed at her over social media saying that she was at fault because only a whore would get drunk around a bunch of boys. I really think you're underestimating the degree to which the prevalence of that attitude actually makes rape more likely.

Edit: I see DIABC already posted some of the twitter "She deserved it she was so drunk" brilliance, but it's also worth noting that that was a refrain in comments from Stuebensville residents as soon as the story came out.
   1841. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4392826)
In general, the really creepy stuff has come from the guys who usually stake out really creepy positions, no?


I was accidentally offensive, does that count?

Note: This is not to say I am not normally offensive, but I don't think I am creepy. But then again I don't find any of the posters creepy, so maybe my detector is broken.
   1842. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4392831)
Note: This is not to say I am not normally offensive, but I don't think I am creepy. But then again I don't find any of the posters creepy, so maybe my detector is broken.

Come on! how can somebody with the word 'loiters' in his handle not be creepy?
   1843. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4392832)
I was accidentally offensive, does that count?


The bit about Ray & "rape culture"? That wasn't even a blip, I don't think. Again, if one accepts the "rape culture" model (not saying you do, but I guess you used the phrase, so it's in play, so to speak), the vast majority of participants in society are part of that culture, whether willingly or deliberately or otherwise, I suppose.
   1844. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4392836)
I don't think that's the dominant voice in these threads - though it is enough of one and its tenor shrill and occasionally offensive enough - that I post in the political stuff less often than I used to (which, yes, runs counter to my previous point).


I find it odd how big of a kneejerk reaction there is against two so-called "men's rights" discussions over the course of three months. I get that there's a population who use "men's rights" to cover for misogyny. I don't think any of the regular contributors to the OTP threads here are in any way justifiably reduced to that population. Nothing good ever comes from refusing to ask questions and answer them forthrightly and honestly. Nothing. I like Matt as much as I like any contributor to this site, but I find this throwing up of hands and leaving in a huff thing to be off putting at best. Nothing good comes of refusing to think a thought, however uncomfortable the thought may make you.
   1845. SoSH U at work Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4392837)
is that it comes awfully close to portraying rape as some force of nature that we all just need to accept.


But isn't the opposite approach pretending rape can never happen?

Forget about after-the-fact rape. If you're advising your teenage or college-age daughter when she's going out for a night with friends, would you not want to warn her of one of the potential harms that could befall her if she gets passed-out drunk? That putting herself in that position is risky behavior, potentially more risky than it is if her brother does it, and she may want to factor that into her decision making?

It's not fair that she may be at greater risk than her brother if she gets in that condition, but it seems pretty true.*

* At least in terms of sexual assault. Men may be at greater risk for other types of injuries when they've had too much to drink.
   1846. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4392839)
I don't think any of the regular contributors to the OTP threads here are in any way justifiably reduced to that population.

I think you're absolutely wrong about that.
   1847. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4392842)
The number of false rape accusations seems quite high according to this article.

I am in no way vouching for the bona fides of the authors here, but the article doesn't appear to be quack on its face and is footnoted with seemingly honest studies.

Among the highlights:

Very little formal research has been conducted on the prevalence of false allegations of rape. One study looked at the 109 cases of forcible rape that were disposed of in one small midwestern town between 1978 and 1987 (Kanin, 1994). The given town was specifically selected for study because the police department used a uniquely objective and thorough protocol when investigating rape complaints. Among other procedural safeguards, officers did not have the discretion to drop rape investigations if they concluded the complaint was "suspect" or unfounded. Every rape accusation had to be thoroughly investigated and included offering a polygraph to both the accuser and the accused. Cases were only determined to be false if and when the accuser admitted that no rape occurred.

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were "false" or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be "proven" allegations either because the "overwhelming preponderance of the evidence" strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be "disproved" as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a "hoax" at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or "unresolved" rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a "proven" rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 "disproved" cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.
   1848. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4392846)
Again, not sure how many of you have watched the video I posted in 1649 (where the drunk 16 year old football players, unlike Morty and SBB, seem to have no trouble recognizing that what just occurred was rape),

WTF are you talking about?
   1849. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4392848)
I think the problem with focusing so much on the fact that the victim did something "wrong" (she didn't, she did something mildly foolish


Is behaving foolishly not wrong, by definition. Is it right to behave foolishly? What's the practical distinction between "wrong" and "foolishly" in your statement?

is that it comes awfully close to portraying rape as some force of nature that we all just need to accept.


Rape has been part of the human genome for aeons. That doesn't mean it's something "we all just need to accept." That means the by refusing to acknowledge the biological reality of the world you almost certainly ensure that any attempt to remove the behavior from society at large will fail, because you're not addressing the underlying facts.
   1850. The Good Face Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4392850)
Internet punditry is real victim of rape.


Punditry? I've arrived, apparently.


Around here pointing out something that's both obvious and true apparently qualifies one for punditry.

Really though, I liked your posting in this thread; I thought you made cogent points and maintained an even tone. A pleasant contrast to the usual suspects.
   1851. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4392851)
I don't think any of the regular contributors to the OTP threads here are in any way justifiably reduced to that population.

I think you're absolutely wrong about that.


Indeed. I like Sam a lot, but he needs to decide whether he's going to be Mr. Misanthrope or Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. The first statement would seem to reflect the latter persona.
   1852. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4392852)
Forget about after-the-fact rape. If you're advising your teenage or college-age daughter when she's going out for a night with friends, would you not want to warn her of one of the potential harms that could befall her if she gets passed-out drunk? That putting herself in that position is risky behavior, potentially more risky than it is if her brother does it, and she may want to factor that into her decision making?

Yes. But, and I think this is a distinction that is missing here, that is significantly different thing from bringing up the fact that an actual rape victim was drinking prior to the actual rape.
   1853. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4392854)
I think you're absolutely wrong about that.


There is a strong tendency on both sides of the BTF-OTP "aisles" to read the other side as harshly and ungenerously as possible.
   1854. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4392856)
I feel like there was a time when BTF wasn't a men's rights activists watering hole with a little baseball discussion on the side, but maybe I was always kidding myself. Either way, I don't know how much of this place is worth my time.


You're not alone, Matt.

Part of the problem is that the serial offenders are the ones who invest the most time and verbiage into their comments, and after seeing the same people** post the same garbage in thread after thread like this, there doesn't seem to be much point in saying anything at all. I'm glad to see that Matt and Der K*** and Slivers and Bitter Mouse**** and Lassus and DP and DIABC (and whoever I haven't mentioned) have tried to interject a bit of common humanity into the discussion, but it's like trying to compete against a quintet of steam calliopes, and I'm not sure it's really worth it.

**Who don't often agree with each other on too many topics, but who all could be roughly described as bush league professional contrarians.

***After reading your account of your experience as a 19 year old, I almost felt a twinge of sympathy for the NRA's likely suggestion that you should have been carrying a gun and sent that ############ to his final resting place.

****Whose sense of politeness and forbearance is as always worthy of some sort of prize for tolerance.
   1855. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4392859)
WTF are you talking about?


@1285
Their behavior is barbaric.

Not really. That's far too strong a term to describe it.

High school kids have been getting drunk and hooking up for decades. High school and college girls have gotten themselves drunk so as to become less sexually inhibited for decades, which often results in quite intended sexually-related activity. This episode seems to have mildly crossed an extremely blurred line. It really wasn't close to "barbaric."
   1856. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4392861)
I think the problem with focusing so much on the fact that the victim did something "wrong" (she didn't, she did something mildly foolish that many people - including no doubt many in this thread - have done without any significant negative repercussions),


Wait a minute - you're objecting to the use of the word "wrong" as opposed to "mildly foolish"? I didn't use the word "wrong" - I said she used bad judgment - but I'll gladly accept "mildly foolish" instead. Is that what this entire discussion has been over? Framing? Which word to use? People want to deal with semantics rather than substance? "Wrong" vs. "mildly foolish"? Jesus.

is that it comes awfully close to portraying rape as some force of nature that we all just need to accept.


Not at all. My comment was specifically to _reduce_ the chance of rape, not "accept it." You may disagree (bizarrely) that fewer blacked-out drunk women would lead to fewer rapes, but the fact remains that my suggestion was still offered up as a way to reduce the chance that rape would occur.

This in some ways leads to young men not feeling terribly bad about doing these sorts of things to a really drunk girl.


Not in the mind of any rational and good hearted person.
   1857. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4392862)
There is a strong tendency on both sides of the BTF-OTP "aisles" to read the other side as harshly and ungenerously as possible.

FWIW, I was not referring to you.
   1858. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4392864)
No one on this thread has committed any "offense," Andy. Sorry.

Nor has anyone shown any lack of "common humanity." Discussing the issues of the day in an open, peaceful way is among the loftiest traits of human beings. Sorry again.

Some things may have offended your sense of propriety or politesse in some vague, undefined way. So be it.
   1859. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4392865)
Yes. But, and I think this is a distinction that is missing here, that is significantly different thing from bringing up the fact that an actual rape victim was drinking prior to the actual rape.

How so? I see no problem with saying the two guys are fully responsible for their crime (and I've said they should be doing 10 years instead of 1 or 2) and the victim acted stupidly, making herself more vulnerable to predators.

Why is it any different than saying a person who was fall down drunk, and waving money around, and then got mugged, did stupid things that increased to probability of a mugging? That doesn't in any way mitigate the guilt of the mugger.
   1860. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4392869)
FWIW, I was not referring to you.


Lassus says it's not all about me.
   1861. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4392873)
@1285
Their behavior is barbaric.

Not really. That's far too strong a term to describe it.

High school kids have been getting drunk and hooking up for decades. High school and college girls have gotten themselves drunk so as to become less sexually inhibited for decades, which often results in quite intended sexually-related activity. This episode seems to have mildly crossed an extremely blurred line. It really wasn't close to "barbaric."


And your point? I rarely define the acts of non-adults as "barbaric" and don't here. You want me to put that in all caps for you?

I remain troubled that a black kid's life, which had seemingly got nicely on track, has now been ruined. So shoot me.
   1862. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4392877)
Rape has been part of the human genome for aeons. That doesn't mean it's something "we all just need to accept." That means the by refusing to acknowledge the biological reality of the world you almost certainly ensure that any attempt to remove the behavior from society at large will fail, because you're not addressing the underlying facts.
There's not a huge difference between saying rape is something "we all just need to accept" and saying rape is a "biological reality of the world." If one accepts the latter, then what better defense is there than "my client is human and could not resist the biological reality of the world" because the victim was drunk and hot? It's the ultimate mitigating circumstance.

Edited for coherence.
   1863. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4392878)
I remain troubled that a black kid's life, which had seemingly got nicely on track, has now been ruined. So shoot me.

So you don't care about the white perp?

WTF does race have to do with this? I don't even know the race of the victim, nor do I care.
   1864. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4392879)
So about Rape Culture. I did use the term so here goes ...

I think it is all of the cultural cues, habits and what have you that can contribute to, make more likely, make more acceptible, minimize the consequences or guilt of rape. I think using a slang term for female genetalia as a synonym for wimp is a perfect example of this.

Does it lead to football frat guy raping a girl directly? Obviously not, but I think it is plausible that that sort of thing contributes to it. And by calling out that behavior, by not using that term and suggesting others not use the term I think helps fight that culture.

This is a small part of it (clearly) and someone can snip opart of this post away and make funof "typcal liberal PC ..." but I think that is missing the point entirely. Woman should not be thought of as natural victims in our language or anywhere else. it is not OK to victimize them.

I admit as a male (or Monkey) I have hard wired "reflexes" regarding women. That does not mean I act on them or that it is OK for others to either.

I don't actually like the term rape culture, because it implies that our culture condones rape, which is not true. If someone has a better term I am open to it and wil adopt it. But there are cultural behaviors and artifacts which do matter (IMO) and I think rooting them out is important. this mirrors my feelings about discrimination and racism. There is legacy cultural bits even in "non-racist" America that need to be cleaned up.

Someday we will have moved past both issues (I hope) and the PC police won't care if the slang term for female geentalia is easily linked to victimhood while the corresponding slang for male genetalia is much more agressive. it won't matter in that future because we wil be past it, but I kind of think it does matter now.

Is it the most important thing? No. Is a fair an impartial justice system more important than the language people use on a chat board? Obviously.

EDIT: Changes word from queue to cue. Not sure what I was thinking.
   1865. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4392880)
There's not a huge difference between saying rape is something "we all just need to accept" and saying rape is a "biological reality of the world." If one accepts the latter, then what better defense is there than "my client is human and could not resist the biological reality of the world"? It's the ultimate mitigating circumstance.


That makes no sense at all. Murder has been part of the human genome for aeons too, yet we still manage to legislate against that.
   1866. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4392882)
Well, I can make better fora elsewhere or do other things. I participated in the Starlin Castro thread and the child support thread, and I was horrified enough. This is the last straw. It's just not worth it.


Matt, seriously. I like you and think you have a lot to offer on the site (both in baseball threads and politics threads) but this behavior is pretty childish, to loudly announce that you're so horrified by people saying things you're horrified by that you're going to leave the site. If you're going to leave, if you can't handle it, then just quietly leave, rather than making a spectacle of yourself. It's just another way to stifle discussion and dissent while portraying yourself as above it all.
   1867. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:47 PM (#4392883)
So you don't care about the white perp?


He was asking for it.
   1868. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4392886)
I think it is all of the cultural queues, habits and what have you that can contribute to, make more likely, make more acceptible, minimize the consequences or guilt of rape. I think using a slang term for female genetalia as a synonym for wimp is a perfect example of this.


This is extremely vague and gauzy. It's very much "veteran leadership" type thinking. Do you think violent video games or Hollywood movies lead to violence in America?
   1869. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4392890)
WTF does race have to do with this?

Nothing??
   1870. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4392892)
I admit as a male (or Monkey) I have hard wired "reflexes" regarding women. That does not mean I act on them or that it is OK for others to either.

Actually, you should act upon your good instincts towards women. A big part of the outrage in this case is that no one else at the party stood up and said that's not OK, and you're not going to do it. Or, if they were afraid, call 911.

One thing that Sam has right is that there will always be predatory men who take advantage of the fact that they are generally stronger physically than women, to do horrible things. But the correct response is for the decent majority men to act to protect women, not to tut-tut about it, and worry about making women feel unequal.
   1871. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4392893)
WTF does race have to do with this?

Nothing??


Then why did you specifically call out being upset about the black perp?
   1872. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4392896)
And your point? I rarely define the acts of non-adults as "barbaric" and don't here. You want me to put that in all caps for you?
I remain troubled that a black kid's life, which had seemingly got nicely on track, has now been ruined. So shoot me.

I find your contention that what happened "mildly crossed an extremely blurred line" to be pretty reprehensible. That's what I was referring to. I don't really care about your personal definition of barbaric, caps or no.
   1873. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4392897)
Rape has been part of the human genome for aeons.


I don't know that this is true. In fact I don't think it is true, except perhaps in the sense that theft and murder have also been in the human genome for aeons I guess in that we have always had the capability to do them and in certain circumstances they may help propagate successfully (to put it delicately as I can).

Can you please explain what you mean and how it is different from any other crime of violence in a genomic sense?

Coke to Sam who basically answered before I refreshed and is upthread of the question making me look foolish. Sigh.
   1874. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4392898)
Murder has been part of the human genome for aeons too, yet we still manage to legislate against that.
But we don't have large numbers of people saying murder's okay because a murder victim's just asking for it. With rape, we do.
   1875. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4392900)
I get that there's a population who use "men's rights" to cover for misogyny. I don't think any of the regular contributors to the OTP threads here are in any way justifiably reduced to that population.
Yeah, but you're inclined to a sympathetic interpretation of your own positions-- try to have the self-awareness (not to steal too much from Robin here) to see how what you wrote in that thread might come off to someone who's not inclined to such a generous reading. And I know you all hate this, but then remind yourself that any outsider would notice immediately that this is a conversation being had exclusively among men, with no interest in or solicitation of female perspectives, and in fact, something that looks like an open hostility toward female voices entering the conversation, at least based on the responses of some here to Devil.

Nothing good comes of refusing to think a thought, however uncomfortable the thought may make you.
There's a big, thick line between "thinking" and "discussing in a public forum." You're trying to hide behind the "I have dangerous ideas" defense. Your idea here wasn't as much dangerous as it was foolishly introduced. If you're going to constantly insist on these brutal reality-checks, how about this one? "Discourse has effects". I'd expect you of all people to bear this in mind. The "rape culture" thing is all about recognizing discourse effects, in an attempt to change that discourse away from one that finds the victims' actions worthy of comment ("interesting," as you put it). Again, this is not a complicated nor a new idea, but apparently, it's new for some people here, so will take some getting used to. Next time you feel the need to call a victim stupid because she got raped, just bite your tongue. Or still your fingers, or whatever. Or don't. But don't act surprised if people think you sound like a sexist #### for failing to do so.
   1876. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4392902)
Then why did you specifically call out being upset about the black perp?

Because that was my reaction.

And still is.
   1877. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4392903)
I find your contention that what happened "mildly crossed an extremely blurred line" to be pretty reprehensible. That's what I was referring to. I don't really care about your personal definition of barbaric, caps or no.

Yeah, that's a very disturbing statement.
   1878. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4392904)
Because that was my reaction.

Well that's odd. I would think you would feel bad for both perps or neither.
   1879. DevilInABlueCap Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4392905)
Oh, I get the confusion over "rape culture" and what it means. You guys just blatantly ignored my post at 1783. No problem; I'll post the relevant bit again:

Rape culture, for the uninitiated, is not about being a rapist. It's about creating a world that constantly calls into question the legitimacy of sexual assault victims, that shifts blame away from people who commit sexual crimes and onto the people who are subject to them. It's about creating an environment that calls women "sluts" or "teases" when they speak out about assault, and suggests that some kinds of violation aren't really violations because "how bad is one finger?" It's a world where women don't speak out for fear that their every misdeed (getting a C in junior Trig/drinking underage/the color of her bra/wearing a skirt of any length) will be combed through, and men don't even bother to report (a very serious problem). It's when 19,000 assaults happen on average per year in the world's best resourced military and only 2400 are reported, and only 240 come to trial (not conviction, just trial). It's where the narrative about rape is that a scary, insane looking guy sits in the bushes, grabs a knife and holds it to the neck of a (white) virginal schoolgirl on her way home from Bible study and "defiles" her while she fights back viciously (but not in a way that harms her ethereally beautiful face) instead of what it is: a crime marked only by its lack of consent, committed as opportunities come with women, men, girls and boys of varying attractiveness and dress.

Rape culture is in the air we breathe, because sex is still discussed as something women "have" and men "get" instead of a mutually beneficial arrangement that people agree to. Rape culture is something like Steubenville being reduced down to "little more than a scene from the Jackass movies". And it's why bodily autonomy and sexual orifices are turned into property whenever an analogy to rape is made (women's sexual safety has been compared to wallets, $50 bills, $100 bills, and other objects) instead of acknowledging that one's physical boundaries are not capable of being "flaunted" nor replaceable. Rape culture is never clearer than this: whenever one of these discussions come up, it is always, always, always about how we make women less rape-able rather than rapists more easily caught.
   1880. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4392906)
Why is it any different than saying a person who was fall down drunk, and waving money around, and then got mugged, did stupid things that increased to probability of a mugging? That doesn't in any way mitigate the guilt of the mugger.

Because generally with a mugging there's not a huge public narrative about how the victim is partially to blame and if only they hadn't gotten drunk none of the lives of the people involved would have been ruined (See 1861 and about a billion twitter and facebook posts, many of them from people who know the victim).
   1881. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4392907)
I find your contention that what happened "mildly crossed an extremely blurred line" to be pretty reprehensible.

Then let me repeat it.

I don't really care about your personal definition of barbaric, caps or no.

Then why did you quote it and call attention to it?

   1882. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4392909)
You're trying to hide behind the "I have dangerous ideas" defense.
This is my impression as well. It's not a "dangerous idea", it's not even a new one. It's the defense put forth by the rapists, and it's been used since forever.
   1883. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4392911)
I find your contention that what happened "mildly crossed an extremely blurred line" to be pretty reprehensible.


Several of us are eagerly waiting to see that one hand-waved away, I'm sure.


Edit: Though #1881 indicates that no hands will be waved. That's ... fascinating, at least to me, & calls to mind my "creepy" characterization an hour or so ago.
   1884. Kurt Posted: March 20, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4392912)
Why is it any different than saying a person who was fall down drunk, and waving money around, and then got mugged, did stupid things that increased to probability of a mugging? That doesn't in any way mitigate the guilt of the mugger.

Honestly, I think the guilt of the mugger can be mitigated. Chancing upon someone face down in the gutter, with a thick stack of $20 bills sticking out of his pocket and deciding to take the money and walk away is wrong, but not as bad as threatening someone with a weapon or using force to get their money. I wouldn't expect the justice system to treat the two situations identically.

I wouldn't say the saem thing about rape or sexual assault, basically for the reason outlined by DWABD earlier. Personal bodily autonomy is sacrosanct, in a way money and watches etc. are not. The behavior of the Steubenville perps was horrific, full stop.
   1885. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4392913)
This is extremely vague and gauzy. It's very much "veteran leadership" type thinking. Do you think violent video games or Hollywood movies lead to violence in America?


I called out a specific example of verbiage and linked it to behavior, while admiting it is not a direct or sole cause. What would be less vague? Seriously it is like the Climate Denial folks who demand that a hurricane be linked directly to global warming or insist global warming be dismissed; there is s HUGE area between those two and that is the area (vague though it may be) that is real.

Do you think it problamatic:
a) that the slang for female genetalia is a synonym for being a wimp?
b) That Morty thought it OK to use it? (EDIT: In this thread)
c) That Morty defended his use and sees no problem even when brought to his attention?

For me that sort of behavior, while not causing rape, is not a good thing and is problematic at best (even if you find it vague).
   1886. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4392914)
But we don't have large numbers of people saying murder's okay because a murder victim's just asking for it.


We have a large number of people saying 'don't walk through central park at 2am.' But there are no open-mouthed gasps produced by that statement.

With rape, we do.


No, we don't. Not one person has said "rape's okay because a rape victim's just asking for it." You made that up.
   1887. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4392917)
I find your contention that what happened "mildly crossed an extremely blurred line" to be pretty reprehensible.

Then let me repeat it.

I don't really care about your personal definition of barbaric, caps or no.

Then why did you quote it and call attention to it?

Because it was part of the post with the other line in it? Is this really that hard?
   1888. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4392919)
Rape culture is never clearer than this: whenever one of these discussions come up, it is always, always, always about how we make women less rape-able rather than rapists more easily caught.

Devil, why would it ever not be both?

I have been as harsh in my condemnation of the two animals who did this crime as anyone in this thread. I've said that they are completely to blame, and should have been tried as adults, and facing 10 years in maximum security prison instead of a couple of years in juvie. I can't condemn them any more.

But, it seems nonsensical to ignore the fact that the victim acted foolishly. I mean, we don't want to just catch and punish rapist, we want to prevent rapes. Women not getting blackout, fall-down drunk will prevent rapes.
   1889. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4392920)
Yeah, that's a very disturbing statement.

Sorry, but the "line" of consent is blurred in the context of this case, as is their capacity to know and actual knowledge of such consent -- a necessary element to the offense.

If you find it "disturbing" to evaluate whether the actual elements of a crime have actually been proven, I really can't help you.
   1890. Kurt Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4392923)
No, we don't. Not one person has said "rape's okay because a rape victim's just asking for it." You made that up.

See #1830.
   1891. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4392925)
Because generally with a mugging there's not a huge public narrative about how the victim is partially to blame and if only they hadn't gotten drunk none of the lives of the people involved would have been ruined (See 1861 and about a billion twitter and facebook posts, many of them from people who know the victim).

And the people who do this should be loudly condemned.
   1892. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4392926)
We have a large number of people saying 'don't walk through central park at 2am.' But there are no open-mouthed gasps produced by that statement.
But when someone does die in Central Park at 2 a.m., nobody says, "Oh, but he deserved it."

No, we don't. Not one person has said "rape's okay because a rape victim's just asking for it." You made that up.
Lots of people say that, except they say, "IT'S NOT RAPE because she was asking for it." They don't see the victim as a victim, and they don't see non-consent sex as rape. They change the language to make it okay.
   1893. Morty Causa Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4392927)
In "rape culture" activism, the mere suggestion that a victim's actions prior to being assaulted were problematic means you're "blaming the victim" for the crime.

The issue with harping about the victim's responsibility is that it is entirely counter-productive, if what you are actually trying to do is reduce the occurrence of rape.

There’s an aspect of this that goes toward proving the element of the crime of rape: lack of consent. Most cases dealing with rape don’t have a photographic record of the event. That there was sex maybe can be easily established. The issue is consent. And often all the court has is with is a she says, he says.

A real case that comes to mind has a woman claiming she was abducted and repeatedly rape at his home. They then went out for pizza at a restaurant, with workers and other patrons (it was late at night), where, yes this is true, she even got up from the table and was allowed to go to the rest room. She did not try to run away, nor did seek aid from the patrons or the workers at the pizza place. Where cross-examined on this, she said she was afraid to run away or ask for help—she was under his will. She said she later came out of the fog and escaped; he said he brought her home. She filed charges.

Who would you believe? The court believed the woman. The court of appeal affirmed.
   1894. formerly dp Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4392928)
But, it seems nonsensical to ignore the fact that the victim acted foolishly.
Dots. So. Hard. To. Connect. Dots.
   1895. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4392929)
Do you think violent video games or Hollywood movies lead to violence in America?


To answer your question (in hopes you answer mine), I think "lead to" is doing much work. I think there is desensitization (sp?) that happens. I think that has been largely shown to be true. I think there is some degree of correlation, but suspect it is somewhat weak. I am a happy consumer of violence on TV and in movies, and allow my children to watch (thogh in a munch more limited fashion than most of America). I think the "damage" done by violence portayed can be minimized in other ways and should be. I don't think it is a great analogy, because I think portrayals of violence in film and game can be entertaining and a "good" (to outweigh soem of the possible bad), but I am not seeing anything similar on the Rape Culture side.
   1896. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4392931)
Dots. So. Hard. To. Connect. Dots.

Isn't it better to both encourage women to avoid risky behavior and prosecute rapists vigorously?

WTF is lost in the world if fewer women get blackout drunk? That's a good thing in and of itself.
   1897. jmurph Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4392932)
Matt, seriously. I like you and think you have a lot to offer on the site (both in baseball threads and politics threads) but this behavior is pretty childish, to loudly announce that you're so horrified by people saying things you're horrified by that you're going to leave the site. If you're going to leave, if you can't handle it, then just quietly leave, rather than making a spectacle of yourself. It's just another way to stifle discussion and dissent while portraying yourself as above it all.


Ray: I'm not MCoA (obviously), and nobody asked me, but I appreciated his sentiment. "Rickey" (I'll do him the favor he doesn't deserve or understand that he needs and not use his name as others have done) has said some irredeemably ###### up stuff in this thread. As has SBB. Ray, to your credit, I haven't seen anything remotely comparable from you to "Rickey's" opening volley, comparing the victim to a drunk driver that kills other people.

So at some point while reading through this, you ask yourself, is this where one should spend one's time talking about baseball? I wouldn't have a friend offline who expressed the stuff that "Rickey" has expressed, so why would I interact with a person like that online?

For my sake I hope MCoA sticks around, because he and Darren (and Jose and a few others) make my Red Sox fandom much more enjoyable. But I certainly wouldn't blame the guy for not wanting his name attached to this stuff.
   1898. Tripon Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4392934)
I hope this thread gets closed. Its at that point.
   1899. Howling John Shade Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4392936)
Sorry, but the "line" of consent is blurred in the context of this case, as is their capacity to know and actual knowledge of such consent -- a necessary element to the offense.

If you find it "disturbing" to evaluate whether the actual elements of a crime have actually been proven, I really can't help you.

Welp, I'm a lawyer. I'm pretty aware of what legally constitutes rape. I'm very sympathetic to the rights of criminal defendants. If you think this is close to a "blurred line," you're delusional.
   1900. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: March 20, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4392937)
Isn't it better to both encourage women to avoid risky behavior and prosecute rapists vigorously?
We can certainly do both. The important thing from the male side of the equation is to drill into the culture the understanding that no amount of "risky behavior" constitutes consent.
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