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Sunday, September 02, 2012

OTP - September 2012 - Because it’s Labor Day after all

Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: September 02, 2012 at 01:22 PM | 8483 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   701. Steve Treder Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4227539)
being a newcomer can be a major political advantage. Several Republicans with considerable experience (Reagan was certainly one) tried to cast themselves as newcomers. (You can have it both ways if people buy it: I'm the fresh face with all the experience …)

The funniest might have been Newt Gingrich selling himself as an outsider.
   702. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4227540)
I haven't done any whining. I've simply pointed out
Opined. You've been opining.
   703. I am going to be Frank Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4227543)
I laughed at how Newt tried to position himself as an "outsider" in the primaries. Third-in-line for succession for President but he's an outsider!
   704. Joe Kehoskie Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4227544)
Opined. You've been opining.

Yes, an opinion with which right-wingers like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, et al., seem to agree.
   705. I am going to be Frank Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4227545)
Damnit! Cokes and such...
   706. steagles Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4227552)
But they're not "federal responsibilities" at all.
when the federal government taxes its citizens, those revenues trickle down to the state and local levels in the form of educational grants, infrastructure investment, medicare/medicaid/welfare/unemployment insurance. by taking that money away, you're not eliminating the need for that money to be sent, you're just shifting the burden of taxation.


   707. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4227554)
Yes, an opinion with which right-wingers like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, et al., seem to agree.
*Snerk* Given the right wing's hard-on for long resumes like Palin and Ryan, I'm not sure you're making anything resembling a case here.
   708. zonk Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4227555)
you're not eliminating the need for that money to be sent, you're just shifting the burden of taxation.


NOW, you're starting to understand the GOP's 'substance'!
   709. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4227560)
Let's vote, who comes closest to being an orthodox liberal here?

I vote Andy.


It's Treder in a walk.

Hmmmmm, where does being against juicers for the Hall of Fame put me on the political spectrum? With the liberal Treder or the wingnut Ray?

Other than that, the wingnuts here are so completely clueless about liberals and liberalism that it scarcely matters what they think. You could fit their knowledge of actual American social conditions over the past 100 years into a thimble and still leave plenty of room.

As to who's the most consistent of the wingnuts, though, that's a tough call. After disqualifying the obvious trolls like Joey and Good Face, I'd say that it'd be Edgar Bergen Nieporent and Charlie McCarthy DiPerna on "Don't steal my person" economics, "Bear thy rapist's child, woman" snapper on cultural and religious matters, and Kehoskie on the 2012 election. There are some promising wannabee benchwarmers who show up from time to time, but their Wingnut Above Replacement score needs to be burnished by a bigger career total. But I'd say that a few years in the loo with Ayn Rand might be enough to bring them up to speed.
   710. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4227561)
when the federal government taxes its citizens, those revenues trickle down to the state and local levels in the form of educational grants, infrastructure investment, medicare/medicaid/welfare/unemployment insurance. by taking that money away, you're not eliminating the need for that money to be sent, you're just shifting the burden of taxation.

You give the states a choice whether to spend it or not. States can choose to be high tax/high benefit or low tax/low benefit, or somewhere in between, and people can vote with their feet.

   711. Steve Treder Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4227562)
NOW, you're starting to understand the GOP's 'substance'!

Yup.
   712. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4227563)
taken from earlier 1040 tax forms gathered and stored on the flash drives.


...and sealed in a mayonnaise jar stored on Funk & Wagnels porch.
   713. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4227565)
A free abortion.

On demand?


At gunpoint.
   714. Joe Kehoskie Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4227566)
Principles or preferences? Reason investigates "choice" at the Democratic National Convention:

How 'Pro-Choice' are Democrats?

Funny stuff.
   715. Steve Treder Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4227567)
...and sealed in a mayonnaise jar stored on Funk & Wagnels porch.

I think hidden inside a hollowed-out pumpkin in the pumpkin patch would be more apropos.
   716. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4227573)
Have you read his positions on feminism? ;-)

umm, no...
   717. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4227574)
I haven't done any whining. I've simply pointed out that Dem voters value style over substance, and none of your thousands of words in response have refuted that basic claim.
The 2008 Democratic primary campaign was one of the most substantial in recent memory. Obama and Clinton both proposed massive health care reform programs, along with cap and trade programs, and education plans. The toughest fight of the primary season involved how these health care programs would be structured and funded.

By contrast, in 2012, Mitt Romney's major policy proposals are the repealing of Obama's policies. He has no health care plan, no financial regulation plan, no tax plan beyond "I'll cut taxes and it'll be revenue neutral because... look! it's Halley's Comet!"

The GOP has drummed its serious policy people out of the party, and now it's just these Mayberry Machiavellis who see policy as just another campaign in which the party is always right.
   718. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4227576)
Principles or preferences? Reason investigates "choice" at the Democratic National Convention:

How 'Pro-Choice' are Democrats?

Funny stuff.


Good one. Shows that certain segments of both sides are can be as hypocritical. FTR, I'm opposed to most of those mandates talked about in the piece. But one can take this freedom of choice thing too far. Should I have a choice to not pay taxes? Should I have a choice to not educate my children? Should I have a choice to smoke in a public library? Should I have a choice to not wear pants in public?
   719. Tripon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4227577)
Bitfloor, the largest Bitcoin exchange market in the US, is temporarily halting trading until further notice after an attack on their system that led to hackers running away with US$250,000 worth of Bitcoins.
   720. Joe Kehoskie Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4227578)
The GOP has drummed its serious policy people out of the party, and now it's just these Mayberry Machiavellis who see policy as just another campaign in which the party is always right.

Er, except for Paul Ryan, who was ... nominated to be vice president.

(I know, I know — Ryan isn't "serious.")
   721. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4227579)
By contrast, in 2012, Mitt Romney's major policy proposals are the repealing of Obama's policies. He has no health care plan, no financial regulation plan, no tax plan beyond "I'll cut taxes and it'll be revenue neutral because... look! it's Halley's Comet!"


The fewer plans, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

But it's kind of funny how liberals criticize the "oppose everything Obama does" tactic used by the Republicans, since that's precisely what Democrats did to Bush for 8 years.
   722. Joe Kehoskie Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4227582)
   723. steagles Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4227584)
Should I have a choice to not wear pants in public?
i am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
   724. steagles Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4227587)
But it's kind of funny how liberals criticize the "oppose everything Obama does" tactic used by the Republicans, since that's precisely what Democrats did to Bush for 8 years.
yeah, i love how the lbrls cut stonewalled bush's taxcuts and cut funding for his wars and filibustered no child left behind and tried to run the economy off the cliff by doing something no congress had ever done.


also...DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!
   725. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4227588)
Democracy, Democrat-style

Wow! That's ridiculous.
   726. Tripon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4227589)
I'm naked right now
   727. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4227591)
But it's kind of funny how liberals criticize the "oppose everything Obama does" tactic used by the Republicans, since that's precisely what Democrats did to Bush for 8 years.


I was going to say something, but 724 came first...

   728. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4227601)
I was going to say something, but 724 came first...
We don't know that. We only know he's naked.
   729. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4227602)
Should I have a choice to not pay taxes? Should I have a choice to not educate my children? Should I have a choice to smoke in a public library? Should I have a choice to not wear pants in public?

No. Yes. No. Yes.
   730. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4227603)
Democracy, Democrat-style

Wow! That's ridiculous.
The Democratic Party's ability to say \"#### you" to its base is nearly unparalleled. One of the party elites decided that for political reasons the platform should have a Jerusalem policy that the actual delegates don't support. So they made it happen.

The Democratic base has two main problems - (1) it just isn't as big as the Republican base, see polling on self-identification as "liberal" vs "conservative" and (2) its alternative infrastructure is fractured between a variety of different causes, which makes it extremely hard to build a significant left-wing group that can put broad pressure on the party. So you get that bullshit.
   731. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4227617)
Should I have a choice to not pay taxes? Should I have a choice to not educate my children? Should I have a choice to smoke in a public library? Should I have a choice to not wear pants in public?

No. Yes. No. Yes.


First of all, I can now claim that you are not pro-choice.

And second, #2, really? To me, that's child abuse.
   732. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4227627)
Principles or preferences? Reason investigates "choice" at the Democratic National Convention:

How 'Pro-Choice' are Democrats?

Funny stuff.


The man on the street stuff may be fish in a barrel, but Zach Weissmueller is one of my favorite youngsters over at Reason. In contrast to the long-winded, Dennis Miller-style libertarians that I associate with, it's nice to see some clean-cut kids who apparently pattern their demeanor and sartorial tastes after Matt Welch representing.

And what a revelation that Democrats are universally pro-choice, provided that those choices are based on sound reasoning.
   733. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4227628)
But it's kind of funny how liberals criticize the "oppose everything Obama does" tactic used by the Republicans, since that's precisely what Democrats did to Bush for 8 years.
Just to put some numbers on this. What were Bush's primary policy achievements and attempted achievements?

-the tax cuts
-the war in Iraq
-no child left behind
-Medicare Part D
-Social Security privatization

Tax Cuts: 12 Senate Dem ayes, 13 House Dem ayes
Iraq: 29 Senate Dem ayes, 86 House Dem ayes
NCLB: 47 Senate Dem ayes, 197 House Dem ayes
Part D: 11 Senate Dem ayes, 9 House Dem ayes

Social Security privatization is the one where you see a disciplined party apparatus standing against the President's policy. Bush wasn't even able to get enough Republicans to sign on to get it to a vote, but there was only one Democrat outstanding who hadn't already promised to vote against it.

Compare to Obama's primary policy goals and achievements:

-stimulus
-Obamacare
-financial regulation
-cap and trade

ARRA: 3 Senate Rep ayes, 0 House Rep ayes
ACA: 0 Senate Rep ayes, 1 House Rep ayes
Finreg: 4 Senate Rep ayes, 3 House Rep ayes
Cap: 8 House Rep ayes, no Senate vote

As with Social Security privatization, the Democrats were unable to wrangle their own party to even make a vote happen in the Senate. It seems highly likely that every Senate Republican would have voted against if a vote had occurred, but it is possible that a few would have supported the bill, while the Democrats were likely to slough off several votes of their own.

The Democrats in several areas were obstructionist, but I don't think the two records are particularly comparable.
   734. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4227635)
And what a revelation that Democrats are universally pro-choice, provided that those choices are based on sound reasoning.


Um, I think there's more than 3 Democrats in the entire universe.
   735. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4227639)
That's why I use the adjective "modern." Today's "liberals" are, as you note, highly illiberal.


My Jeffersonian sensibilities are a little raw on this topic, but it's always been my position that libertarians (a hideous portmanteau) are the only ones who merit the liberal title. Lefties can have leftist, democrat, progressive, revolutionary, People's, populist, and anything else they can dream up that doesn't evoke liberty, but it's a shame that they've claimed squatters' rights on a name that doesn't befit them in any way. It's even more of a shame that Republicans have bought into that little scam, which trickles down to the third parties.

Um, I think there's more than 3 Democrats in the entire universe.


Parse again, fellow BotB fan.
   736. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4227642)
And second, #2, really? To me, that's child abuse.

How you raise your kids is your business. I suppose I would say you have to educate your kids but how you do it isn't up to me.

As to the smoking in a public library - if I stipulate that public libraries are truly public then, no, you can't subject people in a public place to harmful agents. I don't think you should be free to fire guns off anywhere you like, either.

I think people should be a lot more free in their choices than they are; doesn't mean there should be NO curbs on behavior. If that means I'm not "pro-choice" fine, what a zinger. It's like pointing out that if a "pro-life" person steps on a bug, they aren't really pro-life. Those terms are well defined in the social lexicon as pertaining to abortion.

I know lots of pro-death penalty, pro-life people and plenty of pro-choice folks who think they should be able to tell me what ingredients to use in the kitchen. I agree, if read literally, those are silly terms. But they aren't literal.
   737. BDC Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4227645)
And leave us not forget immigration reform, MCoA. The high-water mark of the Bush efforts was probably the 46 votes scraped together to invoke cloture on S. 1639 in June 2007 – well after Katrina, well after the wars had dragged on into hopelessness. 34 Democrats voted with Bush (plus 11 Republicans and Lieberman). Obama and Biden voted with Bush, as did McCain and Trent Lott; among those united to oppose Bush were Jim DeMint and Bernie Sanders.
   738. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4227647)
but it's a shame that they've assumed a title that doesn't befit them in any way. It's even more of a shame that Republicans have bought into that little scam.


You have it all backwards, it's the conservatives who have labeled what they don't like as "liberal" and it's those that the conservatives who have labeled "liberal" who "have bought into that little scam."

Other than that, yes you are right, the so-called "libertarians" are closer to what used to be called (100+ years ago) liberals, than current day "liberals"

As far as libertarian being a hideous portmanteau, I disagree, it's a nice little riff on liberty.
   739. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4227648)
among those united to oppose Bush were Jim DeMint and Bernie Sanders.


that's an interesting pair, I assume they voted no for different reasons...
   740. Tripon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4227651)


You have it all backwards, it's the conservatives who have labeled what they don't like as "liberal" and it's those that the conservatives who have labeled "liberal" who "have bought into that little scam."

Other than that, yes you are right, the so-called "libertarians" are closer to what used to be called (100+ years ago) liberals, than current day "liberals"

As far as libertarian being a hideous portmanteau, I disagree, it's a nice little riff on liberty.


On this refrain, what's so conservative about current conservatives today? Their platform is actually pretty radical.
   741. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4227656)


You have it all backwards, it's the conservatives who have labeled what they don't like as "liberal" and it's those that the conservatives who have labeled "liberal" who "have bought into that little scam."

Other than that, yes you are right, the so-called "libertarians" are closer to what used to be called (100+ years ago) liberals, than current day "liberals"

As far as libertarian being a hideous portmanteau, I disagree, it's a nice little riff on liberty.


I wish that were right, but the existence of hundred-year-old leftist groups across the pond who've used "liberal" in the same way that most Americans do leads me to believe that it's the lefties who coopted it, not the neocons. I'd be interested to see a dedicated study on the ideological drift of the language of political identification.

To the last point, "libertarian" has at least one too many syllables; we're just a few letters away from being in the same boat as the infralapsarians.
   742. Howie Menckel Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4227657)

God is BACK, BABY! - in the Democratic platform

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-dnc-platform-god-jerusalem-20120905,0,558903.story

   743. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4227665)
By contrast, in 2012, Mitt Romney's major policy proposals are the repealing of Obama's policies. He has no health care plan, no financial regulation plan, no tax plan beyond "I'll cut taxes and it'll be revenue neutral because... look! it's Halley's Comet!"
But this requires buy-in to the liberal framework that the more a politician proposes to "do," the more "serious" and "substantive" it is. Kind of like how the more wars a president starts, the more "presidential" he gets rated by "presidential historians."
   744. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4227668)
Kind of like how the more wars a president starts, the more "presidential" he gets rated by "presidential historians."


Careful, David. That's neoconfederate talk!
   745. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4227669)
On this refrain, what's so conservative about current conservatives today? Their platform is actually pretty radical.


I had a lefty prof who defined "conservative" (in any culture) as "those with economic power and who want to keep economic power"
if you use that definition, then yes, today's conservatives are conservatives

if you define conservatives as being the ones who want to keep doing what we've been doing then, then, economically speaking, no, they are quite radical.

If you ignore economic issues and look at religious/family issues they are conservative bordering on reactionary
   746. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4227671)
The funniest might have been Newt Gingrich selling himself as an outsider.


I didn't pay attention to the primaries, but if this is what Gingrich did I'll agree it is hilarious.
   747. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4227672)
How you raise your kids is your business. I suppose I would say you have to educate your kids but how you do it isn't up to me.


Well, that's fine, and not what I meant. I'm thinking of the "They don't need no book leaning" kind of person. Not that there are many of those, but that's what I mean by not educating your kids.

As to the smoking in a public library - if I stipulate that public libraries are truly public then, no, you can't subject people in a public place to harmful agents. I don't think you should be free to fire guns off anywhere you like, either.

I think people should be a lot more free in their choices than they are; doesn't mean there should be NO curbs on behavior. If that means I'm not "pro-choice" fine, what a zinger. It's like pointing out that if a "pro-life" person steps on a bug, they aren't really pro-life. Those terms are well defined in the social lexicon as pertaining to abortion.

I know lots of pro-death penalty, pro-life people and plenty of pro-choice folks who think they should be able to tell me what ingredients to use in the kitchen. I agree, if read literally, those are silly terms. But they aren't literal.


I'm with you 100%. Just pointing out the potential silliness of "Democrats aren't really pro choice, because they oppose some choices." bit



   748. BDC Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4227675)
I assume they voted no for different reasons

Not all that different. Both see immigrants as taking jobs away from Americans. Their ideas about what would be ideal working conditions for Americans probably differ: Sanders's tending toward some pipe dream of protected, unionized industries and DeMint's tending toward some pipe dream of rugged unregulated entrepreneurship. But both see a steady supply of immigrant workers as damaging to that ideal.
   749. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4227676)
I didn't pay attention to the primaries, but if this is what Gingrich did I'll agree it is hilarious.

His moonbase was pretty outsiderish.
   750. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4227678)
I wish that were right, but the existence of hundred-year-old leftist groups across the pond who've used "liberal" in the same way that most Americans do leads me to believe that it's the lefties who coopted it, not the neocons. I'd be interested to see a dedicated study on the ideological drift of the language of political identification.


1: it wasn't the neocons who labeled american dems "liberals"
2: the fact that in Europe some lefties were called liberals would be a reason for america righties to label their opponents as being liberals, not a reason for American non-conservatives to name themselves such.
   751. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4227680)
I didn't pay attention to the primaries, but if this is what Gingrich did I'll agree it is hilarious.


He did, and it is. And I actually like Newt. He's probably the smartest guy who ran for president this year. I think he'd be a terrible president, but I hope he doesn't go away.
   752. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4227681)
I didn't pay attention to the primaries, but if this is what Gingrich did I'll agree it is hilarious.


yes it was what he tried to do, what was really hysterical is that some people were buying- Palin for one, who claimed that the fact the so-called establishment disliked him was evidence he was really an outsider...

   753. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4227682)
His moonbase was pretty outsiderish.

hey, I liked that part!
   754. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4227683)
Not all that different. Both see immigrants as taking jobs away from Americans. Their ideas about what would be ideal working conditions for Americans probably differ: Sanders's tending toward some pipe dream of protected, unionized industries and DeMint's tending toward some pipe dream of rugged unregulated entrepreneurship. But both see a steady supply of immigrant workers as damaging to that ideal.
I can't remember who wrote it, but it's always stuck with me: Get Glenn Beck and Michael Moore in the same room, and they'll find, on how economic policy affects John Q. Public, they have quite a bit in common.
   755. Steve Treder Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4227684)
Palin for one, who claimed that the fact the so-called establishment disliked him was evidence he was really an outsider...

When in fact the reason the establishment disliked him is that it's rather clear that everyone who has ever gotten to know Gingrich dislikes him.

I agree that he would probably be a fun guy to BS with. But I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him, and he weighs about 300 pounds.
   756. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4227685)
He did, and it is. And I actually like Newt. He's probably the smartest guy who ran for president this year. I think he'd be a terrible president, but I hope he doesn't go away.


I sort of like him for the entertainment value, but good gawd do we have all sorts of ex-pols running around who have absolutely no personal sense of shame whatsoever, Gingrich, Spitzer, I hear that Weiner has been mulling a "comeback*"


*In NYC, and you know what, he might get elected to some position...


   757. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4227686)
1: it wasn't the neocons who labeled american dems "liberals"
2: the fact that in Europe some lefties were called liberals would be a reason for america righties to label their opponents as being liberals, not a reason for American non-conservatives to name themselves such.


1: Correct.
2: "Liberal" had a meaning long before it was co-opted by 19th-/early 20th-century leftists who were influenced by socialist thought. Locke and Jefferson were liberals; what happened between then and now that so twisted the word?

Edit: Pelosi is killing it tonight with her weird chants and insistence that our republic is, in fact a democracy. I can really see why she's such a powerful figure within her party and only a few steps behind Biden within the intellectual leadership. "We made college more affordable..." Pop quiz, Rep: what happens when you subsidize a massive increase in demand within an industry? Do prices go down?
   758. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4227688)
2: "Liberal" had a meaning long before it was co-opted by 19th-/early 20th-century leftists who were influenced by socialist thought. Locke and Jefferson were liberals; what happened between then and now that so twisted the word?
"Conservative" used to refer to Burkeans, "libertarians" were originally left-anarchists. This is what happens to political identifiers. I don't know the precise history - my guess is that the center-left in America identified as "liberals" over and against actual leftists in the labor and progressive movements, and the word then shifted to refer to the left in American politics. But I don't actually know.

"Liberals" in the 18th century might hold slaves and deny the full humanity of various non-European folks. That changed too.
   759. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:24 PM (#4227689)
Locke and Jefferson were liberals; what happened between then and now that so twisted the word?

Evolution of language, which has been happening since the first grunt?
   760. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4227691)
Evolution of language, which has been happening since the first grunt?


Irregardless, I'm disinterested and could care less about it.
   761. BDC Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4227692)
I'd love to talk Civil War history with Newt Gingrich. But if he starts in on "What if Robert E. Lee had had a Saturn V," I'm going to remember a dentist's appointment.
   762. DA Baracus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4227693)
Gingrich's campaign was hilarious. Don't forget that on top of the moonbase and calling himself an outsider, four days after he declared he torpedoed himself by slamming Paul Ryan's Medicare proposal, and four weeks later his senior staff quit because he wasn't serious about campaigning. He had never stepped foot in his Georgia office, instead going on a vacation cruise to the Mediterranean. Plus there was the whole $500,000 bill at Tiffany's issue too as his campaign was in debt by about $1M. And that was just in the summer of 2011.
   763. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:31 PM (#4227697)
Evolution of language, which has been happening since the first grunt?


Which is why those who followed "The Way" laid out by Jeshua ben Joseph are now known as moslems. Incisive insight.

Irregardless, I'm disinterested and could care less about it.


Nice, but needs more less/fewer confusion.

Edit: I tuned in for the DNC but somehow wound up watching the Miss America pageant.
   764. SteveF Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4227699)
Is the DNC being televised tonight or are they just assuming everyone will be watching football?
   765. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4227706)
He did, and it is. And I actually like Newt. He's probably the smartest guy who ran for president this year. I think he'd be a terrible president, but I hope he doesn't go away.

Whoever gets elected in November could do quite a bit worse than to hire Gingrich and Clinton, chain them in the corner of the Oval Office (you know what a I mean) and listen to them carefully at the end of each day.
   766. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: September 05, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4227707)
On this refrain, what's so conservative about current conservatives today? Their platform is actually pretty radical reactionary.


Fixed that for you.

Radicals want to change the world immediately, usually in a revolutionary manner. Libertarians are radicals.
Liberals want to change the world incrementally, usually in from within a standard model. Liberals are liberals.
Conservatives want to arrest change and maintain the status quo. There are no real conservatives in the US. Tories are conservatives.
Reactionaries want to reverse time and return to a previous state or "golden era." Republicans are reactionaries.
   767. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4227714)
Is the DNC being televised tonight or are they just assuming everyone will be watching football?

Watch what now?
   768. BDC Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4227716)
watching football

Ah, thanks for the reminder. 17 minutes to kickoff …
   769. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4227726)
Get this:

The group allegedly obtained the files from PricewaterhouseCooper’s Tennessee office on Aug. 25, in what was described on PasteBin as a Mission Impossible-like caper:

Romney’s 1040 tax returns were taken from the PWC office 8/25/2012 by gaining access to the third floor via a gentleman working on the 3rd floor of the building. Once on the 3rd floor, the team moved down the stairs to the 2nd floor and setup shop in an empty office room. During the night, suite 260 was entered, and all available 1040 tax forms for Romney were copied. A package was sent to the PWC on suite 260 with a flash drive containing a copy of the 1040 files, plus copies were sent to the Democratic office in the county and copies were sent to the GOP office in the county at the beginning of the week also containing flash drives with copies of Romney’s tax returns before 2010. A scanned signature image for Mitt Romney from the 1040 forms were scanned and included with the packages, taken from earlier 1040 tax forms gathered and stored on the flash drives.

Appears to be a hoax, since the links to the story seem to be disappearing. However, it is somewhat surprising that a purported Watergate-stlyle burglary to obtain Romney's tax returns has been referred to several times by the Democratic partisans here without a word of disapproval. Interesting.
   770. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4227728)
I haven't done any whining. I've simply pointed out that Dem voters value style over substance, and none of your thousands of words in response have refuted that basic claim.


Because it is a silly claim and a false dichotomy. Feel free to prove that the GOP is somehow different.
   771. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4227730)
Appears to be a hoax, since the links to the story seem to be disappearing. However, it is somewhat surprising that a purported Watergate-stlyle burglary to obtain Romney's tax returns has been referred to several times by the Democratic partisans here without a word of disapproval. Interesting.


So, you think it's a hoax. Many other who commented on it think it's a hoax, and yet a lack of outrage about something that no one believes really happened is indicative of something?

The fact that you're not outraged about the plans of the 12 Zionist bankers in Zurich to take over the world is also interesting.
   772. Tripon Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4227731)
Somebody did steal 250,000 bit coins from a server did.
   773. booond Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4227734)
However, it is somewhat surprising that a purported Watergate-stlyle burglary to obtain Romney's tax returns has been referred to several times by the Democratic partisans here without a word of disapproval. Interesting.


Names please.
   774. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4227735)
On this refrain, what's so conservative about current conservatives today? Their platform is actually pretty radical.
Similarly, how come progressives are so opposed to progress? They want to revert to conserve the New Deal and revert to 19th century ideas about economics.
   775. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4227737)
Kind of like how the more wars a president starts, the more "presidential" he gets rated by "presidential historians."


Did not work very well for Bush II. Perhaps he should have started five or six more wars.
   776. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:59 PM (#4227738)
Similarly, how come progressives are so opposed to progress?


They do want to progress.

Most of the rest of the world now has some sort or government mandated/controlled/provided health care. We don't
Most of the rest of the world has disbanded the death penalty. We haven't.
Most of the rest of the world has a progressive tax system. We don't.

   777. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4227739)
So, you think it's a hoax. Many other who commented on it think it's a hoax, and yet a lack of outrage about something that no one believes really happened is indicative of something?

Did you read the thread? Several posts point to this story without any indication that story is a hoax or that the poster disapproves of the tactic.
   778. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4227740)
Similarly, how come progressives are so opposed to progress? They want to revert to conserve the New Deal and revert to 19th century ideas about economics.


ObamaCare is progress as we join with the rest of the first world. We want to expand the New Deal, but since it is under attack we have to defend it as well. And Keynes is more of a 20th century economist than 19th, but even so we want to build on the success of the past. Progress isn't about throwing away the past, it is about honoring it, learning from it, and then building out something better.
   779. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4227748)

They do want to progress.

Most of the rest of the world now has some sort or government mandated/controlled/provided health care. We don't
Most of the rest of the world has disbanded the death penalty. We haven't.
Most of the rest of the world has a progressive tax system. We don't.


a) If you liked WW2 ration booklets, you'd love government mandated/provided/controlled health care. "Progress" =)
b) Most of the rest of the world or Europe? Careful now.
c) But, speaking of Europe...

1. I would like to introduce you to medicare, medicaid, and state-licensed physicians.
2. Disbanded? Were they on tour previously? But agreed.
3. I wasn't aware that my betters in government had done away with Social Security, according to which the young/relatively poor are forced to give money to the old/relatively rich according to the "progressive" model. Needless to say, you made my day.
   780. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4227750)
Did you read the thread? Several posts point to this story without any indication that story is a hoax or that the poster disapproves of the tactic.

I, for one, think it's total fabricated crapola. Something real occurs, I'll be happy to disapprove; I'm not going to get my underwear in a twist over hypotheticals.
   781. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4227752)
Did you read the thread? Several posts point to this story without any indication that story is a hoax or that the poster disapproves of the tactic.


Concern troll is concerned.

Show me that 1) this actually happened and 2) the Obama campaign was involved in the planning and execution of it and then you can start comparing #### to Watergate, numbnuts.
   782. Zoppity Zoop Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4227753)

Most of the rest of the world has a progressive tax system. We don't.


And theeeeeeerrrrre goes the kewpie doll.
   783. Zoppity Zoop Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4227754)

Concern troll is concerned.


Hutcheson hasn't just removed all doubt, he's obliterated it back to the Stone Age.
   784. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4227755)
Appears to be a hoax, since the links to the story seem to be disappearing. However, it is somewhat surprising that a purported Watergate-stlyle burglary to obtain Romney's tax returns has been referred to several times by the Democratic partisans here without a word of disapproval. Interesting.

Maybe that's because the plot is so completely farfetched. If these hackers / burglars really wanted a million dollars, the last thing they'd do would be to make their demand public, which would guarantee that they'd never get it. Plus they'd have to know that they could get $10 million or even $50,000,000 just as readily as they could get a measly million. But not by demanding the money in a ####### public announcement.

In fact if anything, it's more plausible that it was a story planted by the GOP, in order to give Romney an "I'm not giving into ransom" cover for hiding those tax returns. Not that either of these scenarios are the remotest bit likely unless the perpetrators are just trying to break into a Chuck Shepherd column.
   785. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4227757)
b) Most of the rest of the world or Europe? Careful now.


Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, ... IOW, the countries where people are most free.

Top 10 countries in number of people executed in 2011:

China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
US
Yemen
North Korea
Somalia
Sudan
Bangladesh

Do you like that company?

a) If you liked WW2 ration booklets, you'd love government mandated/provided/controlled health care. "Progress" =)


And yet...most developed countries "most like us" have it and most of their citizens are happy with it.

3. I wasn't aware that my betters in government had done away with Social Security, according to which the young/relatively poor are forced to give money to the old/relatively rich according to the "progressive" model. Needless to say, you made my day.


If Joe K has taught me anything, it's that payroll taxes aren't taxes.
   786. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4227759)
Please be advised #782 is a download.

That is some shitpoor form, Prior.
   787. Zoppity Zoop Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4227761)
Please be advised #782 is a download.

That is some shitpoor form, Prior.


Yeah, as civility goes, a 15K spreadsheet with economic data is worse than the n-word. Might waste a few valuable seconds on a 2400 baud modem.
   788. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4227764)
Please be advised #782 is a download.

That is some shitpoor form, Prior.


I agree. I suggest you remove it while you can.
   789. JJ1986 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4227766)
I don't think it's bad form to link to a file if it was clearly a .xls, but that's hidden as a url.
   790. Zoppity Zoop Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4227768)
Well, it's clearly been verified as a spreadsheet at this point, so who gives a ####?

Lassus's mock outrage and scolding at having downloaded a 15K spreadsheet is absolutely absurd. He could've said "Hey, that link isn't clearly labeled, can you take care of that so people don't worry about downloading a virus?" instead of accusing me of "shitpoor form." Tell me, how many people did you scold in the flame wars of these political threads for actual bad behavior? Zero?
   791. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:50 PM (#4227769)
If you think that's outrage, you haven't been around enough Mets fans.
   792. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4227770)
Lassus's mock outrage and scolding at having downloaded a 15K spreadsheet is absolutely absurd. He could've said "Hey, that link isn't clearly labeled, can you take care of that so people don't worry about downloading a virus?" instead of accusing me of "shitpoor form." Tell me, how many people did you scold in the flame wars of these political threads for actual bad behavior? Zero?


Feeling a little bloated today, are we?
   793. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4227774)
Tell me, how many people did you scold in the flame wars of these political threads for actual bad behavior? Zero?

Well, as I couldn't be bothered to reprimand you for calling Americans "clueless twats", I guess zero is about right.
   794. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4227779)
sandra fluke?? Come on
   795. asdf1234 Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4227793)
Fair share. Bottom up. Corporations are not people. Squared shoulders, planted feet.

The fact that this fascist, Ted Kennedy-quoting thing is actually considered for office is evidence that this nation is lost. Did she really just proclaim the need for a "newer world"? I want my tuition back with interest.

And if we build it together, miss, then just build the damn thing and leave those who don't want it out of it. If it works, then the rest of us will gladly join you after our voluntaryist, free society collapses in the disrepair that has so often followed decency and even modestly free markets.

And yet...most developed countries "most like us" have it and most of their citizens are happy with it.


Check your numbers. And if you're happy with socialized, rationed, vets-administration-style health care with no alternative, then by all means forge your own mutual aid society. I'm on your side in that respect, and I'll support you all the way.

Just leave me and every other individual who didn't snooze through Economics 101 and who actually finished the Marx/Engels Reader out of it.

And Clinton is being pretty hard on the Republicans given that he was one for four years. Nice of him to venture out to support the Amateur, though.
   796. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4227799)
Damn good speech by Warren. That's going to help her in MA.
   797. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4227800)
jdb - did you not just spend a couple hours complaining about the ways in which terms of political identification have been shifted in unnatural ways? The idea that standard social democratic language is "fascist" is utterly stupid.
   798. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4227802)
this is awesome
   799. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4227803)
Bill looks good
   800. booond Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4227812)
The fact that this fascist,


Huh?
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