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Tuesday, December 05, 2017

OTP 04 December 2017: Baseball group accused of ‘united front’ tactics

New Power Party (NPP) Legislator Hsu Yung-ming (徐永明) said that the baseball association should bear the brunt of the blame for letting Taiwanese players become political tools in China’s “united front” strategy and for giving Chinese media an opportunity to promote the “both sides of the Strait are one family” view without restraint.

China is not a top-tier nation in baseball and positive effects on Taiwanese baseball from the tournament would be limited, Hsu said.

The Chinese Taipei Baseball Association should not go along with China, he said, adding that the Sports Administration should investigate whether the association accepted financial aid and whether it reported issues to the government in advance.

“The government should clearly standardize the guidelines for cross-strait sports exchanges,” Hsu added.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 08:57 AM | 1673 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: china, politics, taiwan

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   1. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5586638)
Republican Tax Plan Remains Very Unpopular

A new Quinnipiac poll finds American voters disapprove of the Republican tax plan 53% to 29%. By a 61% to 34% margin, voters say the plan benefits the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.

Meanwhile, President Trump’s approval rate is 35% to 58% and voters think he’s unfit to be president by a 56% to 40% margin.

Said pollster Tim Malloy: “Deeply unpopular and manifestly unfit for the job. That’s the harsh assessment of President Trump, whose tax plan is considered built for the rich at the expense of the rest.”


So, good news?

   2. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5586643)
Well not to go all Ray...but the dude isn't exactly an Oracle.
   3. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5586648)
And even if they pass, The Trump Tax Cuts Can Be Undone

Jonathan Chait: “Of all the horrors Donald Trump has (and has yet to) inflict upon the republic, a huge tax cut for the rich was the most inevitable. But it is also the most easily reversible. Lifetime court appointments, carbon pollution, the degrading of democratic norms — all of these will prove difficult or impossible to undo, and leave costs deep into the future. The Trump tax cuts will not.”

“Indeed, the passage of the Trump tax cuts will help lay the groundwork for their undoing by increasing the chances Democrats regain control of Congress.”
   4. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5586651)
Apparently the DB subpoena story isn't actually true, denied by sources and Trump's lawyer. The lawyer said he'd confirmed with the bank that it was untrue.

More fake news, put out there to keep hope alive.

   5. BrianBrianson Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5586652)
People wouldn't have voted (R) in 2016 if they didn't want large tax cuts for the rich, and for large corporations.
   6. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5586654)
People wouldn't have voted (R) in 2016 if they didn't want large tax cuts for the rich, and for large corporations.


Sure they would have. They're idiots.
   7. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5586662)
David, prior:

If torture doesn't work, then what's the big deal? We'd never need or want to torture anyone, so we don't have to even bother to debate whether it should be legal under some circumstances. Of course torture can work.


You fail to account for the general love some people have for inflicting pain for pain's sake. Torture proponents don't care that it doesn't work, and wouldn't if we knew (which we generally do) as much beforehand. They like the idea of making the "bad guy" hurt. Period. End of story.
   8. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5586672)
Nice post from TGF from the last thread:

2786. The Good Face Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:19 PM (#5586646)
Torture doesn't really work,


Torture works, in the sense that almost everybody will tell you anything to get it to stop. It's simply not useful outside of a tiny number of possible scenarios. For it to be of any value, you have to know exactly what information you're looking for; fishing expeditions derived from torture are worthless. You have to know that the torture victim knows the information you're looking for. You have to know that the information is still valid. And you have to be able to verify the veracity of what the torture victim tells you, typically within a very short time frame. Since the chances of all of those conditions being met within the context of law enforcement or military action are slim to none, it's smarter to just outlaw it.


Credit where credit is due.
   9. Ishmael Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5586674)
(Note that "working" involves two unrelated concepts: (1) torture can get people to give us truthful information; and (2) torture can get people to say what we want them to say. We know that it works in the second sense. (I would implicate any of you losers in any crime I could think of, in order to avoid the pain of being tortured.) But that's obviously an immoral use that only authoritarian governments of the kind Trump likes would use. The only interesting issue is whether it it works in the first sense. But again, saying, "It doesn't" just seems like a copout.)

(Also, torturing Yankees fans is always moral.)

There are other reasons to torture. As punishment, or to inspire terror.

There is also the danger that people who actually have the (legal, thank you) power to torture are loathe to give it up, to the extent that protecting that power becomes an end in itself. This is, of course, a reason to convince yourself it is effective.

I do think that those who support torture aren't making a purely utilitarian case for it as an intelligence gathering technique. You'll find many more people who defend the torture of a terror suspect than defend the torture of the family of a terror suspect, even if they think that the second might be just as effective.
   10. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5586675)
[3]

So the Dems are gonna go all "Obamacare" on the tax bill if/when they get back in power?

Pardon my cynicism, Mouse, but I'll believe it when I see it...
   11. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5586676)
Jonathan Chait: “Of all the horrors Donald Trump has (and has yet to) inflict upon the republic, a huge tax cut for the rich was the most inevitable. But it is also the most easily reversible. Lifetime court appointments, carbon pollution, the degrading of democratic norms — all of these will prove difficult or impossible to undo, and leave costs deep into the future. The Trump tax cuts will not.”


As Mary Astor said in 1942's The Palm Beach Story, "Nothing is permanent in this world, except for Roosevelt."
   12. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5586677)
Since the chances of all of those conditions being met within the context of law enforcement or military action are slim to none, it's smarter to just outlaw it.


Concur. The ticking time bomb thing is kind of ivory towerish. The reality of what would happen if it really truly came to pass is exactly as I explained it.
   13. Lassus Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5586679)
Apparently the DB subpoena story isn't actually true, denied by sources and Trump's lawyer. The lawyer said he'd confirmed with the bank that it was untrue.
More fake news, put out there to keep hope alive.


Maybe, but do you have a source for this?
   14. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5586684)
Wait a minute. WAITAMINUTE...!

Trump's LAWYER says a story that might-could be damaging to Trump says it's not true???

I'm shocked...S H O C K E D!
   15. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:49 PM (#5586687)
Jay Sekulow has said it. Of course, John Dowd wrote the obstruction tweet.
   16. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5586689)
S H O C K E D !!!!!!
   17. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5586690)
Major Garrett of CBS via Twitter.
   18. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5586691)
Trump's LAWYER says a story that might-could be damaging to Trump says it's not true???

I'm shocked...S H O C K E D!


It's in Trump's interest to say it is true and that it means Mueller is going far afield.

Maybe there's some tenth-dimensional chess going on there, but I'm conversant only up to nine dimensions.
   19. Lassus Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5586692)
Jay Sekulow has said it. Of course, John Dowd wrote the obstruction tweet.
Major Garrett of CBS via Twitter.


Interesting. The source (of the news of the subpoena to Deutsche) seems to have been a German daily, I wonder who's lying or wrong?
   20. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5586693)
18

It's in Trump's interest to say it is true and that it means Mueller is going far afield.



You're right, but what is the usual reaction from the White House when something even remotely negative emerges?

It's just the way it is.
   21. Traderdave Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5586694)
FWIW, folks I know at Douche Bank say the place has been abuzz with the news.
   22. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5586695)
So the Dems are gonna go all "Obamacare" on the tax bill if/when they get back in power?

Pardon my cynicism, Mouse, but I'll believe it when I see it...


The GOP keeps driving the Democrats ... well let me link the story - Dems warn GOP: We’re prepared for class war

Democrats are ready to embrace a class war — and blame Republicans for starting it.

The GOP’s controversial dual effort to revamp the health care system and tax code has convinced Democrats they should bluntly assail Republicans as the defenders of out-of-touch plutocrats, a message party operatives have already begun to poll-test, include in attacks ads, and use against vulnerable incumbents even before Saturday’s passage of the Senate GOP bill.

And rather than wince at the inevitable retorts that the party is trying to instigate a class war, leading party strategists say they welcome the attack — confident the GOP’s legislative priorities make them a more likely culprit in the public’s mind.


Said long ago and more succinctly by Warren Buffett — 'There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.'

Now I don't think the Democrats will go full on class warfare, but compared to previous decades they keep moving in that direction, especially since many think that Trump won because of his populist message.

Note: One advantage the Democrats will have in portraying the GOP as plutocrats engaged in warfare against the poor and middle class is that it happens to be true.
   23. BrianBrianson Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5586697)
Trump's LAWYER says a story that might-could be damaging to Trump says it's not true???


C'mon - as far as credibility goes, he's definitely in my top hundred billion humans.
   24. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5586701)
Major Garrett of CBS via Twitter.
Major Garrett reports that Sekulow has said it; he doesn't report that it's true.
   25. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5586702)
Major Garrett of CBS via Twitter.


Curious there's nothing on the CBS News website. Nor Fox. Nor anywhere I can find other than the Garrett tweet, and John Roberts (Fox news) re-tweet.
   26. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5586703)
Major Garrett reports that Sekulow has said it; he doesn't report that it's true.


My point.
   27. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5586706)
You fail to account for the general love some people have for inflicting pain for pain's sake.


By the way in most instances torture inflicts damage on the torturer. There are no winners from torture.
   28. spycake Posted: December 05, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5586707)
FWIW, folks I know at Douche Bank say the place has been abuzz with the news.


The Trump family has definitely done a lot of business at Douche Bank.
   29. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5586712)
The Atlantic reports on the unity ticket:
On Friday, October 7, 2016, The Washington Post published the Access Hollywood tape that showed Trump gloating about his penchant for grabbing women “by the pussy,” and instantly upended the campaign. Republicans across the country withdrew their endorsements, and conservative editorial boards called on Trump to drop out of the race. Most alarming to the aides and operatives inside Trump Tower, Mike Pence suddenly seemed at risk of going rogue.

Trump’s phone calls to his running mate reportedly went unreturned, and anonymous quotes began appearing in news stories describing Pence as “beside himself” over the revelation. One campaign staffer told me that when she was asked on TV the day after the tape came out whether Pence would remain on the ticket, she ad-libbed that, yes, he was 100 percent committed to Trump. She remembers walking away from the set and thinking, “I have no idea if what I just said is true.”

It’s been reported that Pence sent Trump a letter saying he needed time to decide whether he could stay with the campaign. But in fact, according to several Republicans familiar with the situation, he wasn’t just thinking about dropping out—he was contemplating a coup. Within hours of The Post’s bombshell, Pence made it clear to the Republican National Committee that he was ready to take Trump’s place as the party’s nominee. Such a move just four weeks before Election Day would have been unprecedented—but the situation seemed dire enough to call for radical action.

Already, Reince Priebus’s office was being flooded with panicked calls from GOP officials and donors urging the RNC chairman to get rid of Trump by whatever means necessary. One Republican senator called on the party to engage emergency protocols to nominate a new candidate. RNC lawyers huddled to explore an obscure legal mechanism by which they might force Trump off the ticket. Meanwhile, a small group of billionaires was trying to put together money for a “buyout”—even going so far as to ask a Trump associate how much money the candidate would require to walk away from the race. According to someone with knowledge of the talks, they were given an answer of $800 million. (It’s unclear whether Trump was aware of this discussion or whether the offer was actually made.) Republican donors and party leaders began buzzing about making Pence the nominee and drafting Condoleezza Rice as his running mate.

Amid the chaos, Trump convened a meeting of his top advisers in his Manhattan penthouse. He went around the room and asked each person for his damage assessment. Priebus bluntly told Trump he could either drop out immediately or lose in a historic landslide. According to someone who was present, Priebus added that Pence and Rice were “ready to step in.” (An aide to the vice president denied that Pence sent Trump a letter and that he ever talked with the RNC about becoming the nominee. Priebus did not respond to requests for comment.)

Priebus responds that none of the above is true, and that no one asked him to comment. The Atlantic writer responds that he emailed and phoned Priebus several times.

More from the Atlantic piece:
*Trump made efforts to convince Mike Pence he was a religious man of faith. Behind the scenes, he mocks Pence and his family as "yokels."

*A Pence campaign aide says that Karen Pence "finds [Trump] reprehensible—just totally vile.”

*Many of Pence's allies and rivals in Indiana recognize that Pence is a decent, devoted person and shake their heads at his loyal hound act. A top Indiana Democrat says, “Ah, Mike. Ambition got the best of him.” A Pence adviser says, “The number of compromises he made to get this job, when you think about it, is pretty staggering.”

*Pence reportedly told at least one person interviewing for a staff adviser role, “Look, I’m in a difficult position here. I’m going to have to 100 percent defend everything the president says. Is that something you’re going to be able to do if you’re on my staff?”

*Six years ago, the Public Religion Research Institute found that only 30 percent of white evangelicals believed “an elected official who commits an immoral act in their personal life can still behave ethically and fulfill their duties in their public and professional life.” During Trump's ascent, that number jumped to 72 percent. The PRR head says, “They have moved to an ends-justifies-the means style of politics that would have been unimaginable before this last campaign.”
   30. manchestermets Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5586714)
From the quote in 2783 in the old thread:

he insists that “ticking-time-bomb cases are not about torture policy; they are about one-off applications of torture.”


That's ridiculous - if you've decided that torture is acceptable in one-off ticking time-bomb cases, that is torture policy.
   31. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5586721)
That's ridiculous - if you've decided that torture is acceptable in one-off ticking time-bomb cases, that is torture policy.


Right. And good luck having a Philosopher King around to divine the right applications.
   32. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5586723)
It’s been reported that Pence sent Trump a letter saying he needed time to decide whether he could stay with the campaign. But in fact, according to several Republicans familiar with the situation, he wasn’t just thinking about dropping out—he was contemplating a coup. Within hours of The Post’s bombshell, Pence made it clear to the Republican National Committee that he was ready to take Trump’s place as the party’s nominee.


Yeah, that's a guy we want as president. /eyeroll.
   33. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5586726)
Ventura County in CA currently on fire.


Major fire now burning in the Angeles Forest near Sylmar. Several areas under evacuation, 210 freeway closed between the 2 and the 5.

The 5 is also closed further north by another fire in Santa Clarita.

It's pretty nuts out there today.
   34. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5586728)
Still nothing on the interwebs regarding the subpeona other than a couple of tweets saying that Trump's lawyer denies it. Fake news indeed.
   35. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5586733)
From earlier today...

I don't see it, Jason. Comey was overseeing everything. He had the power to staff and direct the investigation. And question whether interviews and the classification of witnesses was handled properly. Whatever happened or didn't happen is Comey's fault (or non-fault, as the case may be).

If the buck stopped with Strzok, I could see a corrupted process. Such as if Strzok was heading up Mueller's investigation. But Strzok didn't head up the Hillary investigation, and he's not heading up the Trump one.

They found out that he was incredibly biased and they removed him. That was entirely proper. And it's more for show than for any real substance.
Agreed, Ray. Even if Comey hadn't signed off on everything, he's responsible for his deputy's actions.

And like many of the lefties here, you refuse to offer an answer as to why Mueller refused to answer Grassley for three-plus months when asked why Strzok was removed.
   36. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5586735)
Dem Rep. Adam Schiff says that House Intelligence Republicans refuse to subpoena Deutsche Bank as part of its Trump investigation, but have subpoenaed banks to turn over Fusion GPS records. Well, "Fusion" does come before "Trump" alphabetically.
   37. Ishmael Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5586736)
That's ridiculous - if you've decided that torture is acceptable in one-off ticking time-bomb cases, that is torture policy.

I think the distinction Allhoff is making here is between moral and legal.

If he can construct a hypothetical case of torture that we would agree is morally permissible or required then we can't argue that there is an absolute moral prohibition against torture.

But that's not to say, at that point, that we would agree that torture should be legal. He will go on to suggest a possible legal framework for torture. But the TTB hypotheticals are supposed to be narrowly focused on isolated cases meant to test the limits of an absolute moral prohibition.

I agree with Shue's criticism from that passage, that the implicit context of the hypothetical is important, and might be decisive. We would have to accept, in the hypothetical world, the degrading of the norm against torture, if we really took the thought experiment seriously. But that's still a moral question, and not yet a question of policy.
   38. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5586740)
Oh look, here's more evidence of super-duper professional conduct at the Bureau:
The emails, several sent from official Justice Department email addresses, show strong support for Yates, who was fired for disobeying a direct order from the President:

Thomas Delahanty, then the United States Attorney for Maine wrote: “You are my hero.”
Liz Aloi, a career service employee and Chief of the Justice Department’s Special Financial Investigations Unit told Yates she was “Inspirational and heroic.”
Emily Gray Rice, then the U.S. Attorney for New Hampshire and an Obama appointee said: “AAG Yates, thank you, as always, for making us proud. It is truly an honor to work for you.”
Obama appointee Barbara McQuade, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan told Yates, “Thank you for your courage and leadership. This is wonderful news.”
DOJ Civil Division Appellate Attorney Jeffrey Clair wrote: “Thank you AG Yates. I’ve been in civil/appellate for 30 years and have never seen an administration with such contempt for democratic values and the rule of law. The President’s order is an unconstitutional embarrassment and I applaud you for taking a principled stand against defending it.”

“This is an astonishing and disturbing find. Andrew Weisman, a key prosecutor on Robert Mueller’s team, praised Obama DOJ holdover Sally Yates after she lawlessly thwarted President Trump,” stated Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton. “How much more evidence do we need that the Mueller operation has been irredeemably compromised by anti-Trump partisans? Shut it down.”
   39. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5586741)
And like many of the lefties here, you refuse to offer an answer as to why Mueller refused to answer Grassley for three-plus months when asked why Strzok was removed.


You seem weirdly obsessed with our opinion as to why Mueller acted like he did. We don't have the information Mueller has, and given what we do know I see no reason why Mueller should have to answer other than he did.
   40. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:36 PM (#5586743)
Judicial Watch? Really?
   41. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:36 PM (#5586744)
Dem Rep. Adam Schiff says that House Intelligence Republicans refuse to subpoena Deutsche Bank as part of its Trump investigation, but have subpoenaed banks to turn over Fusion GPS records. Well, "Fusion" does come before "Trump" alphabetically.
I'd be interested in learning why they haven't done so. Meanwhile, does Schiff agree with the need to thoroughly investigate Fusion GPS?
   42. Omineca Greg Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5586745)
Где продается тетрагидрогестринон? По чем МФР?!!!

I'll say it again...

Где продается тетрагидрогестринон? По чем МФР?!!!
   43. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5586747)
Judicial Watch? Really?
Really, dude? One Sammy is enough. One Bivens is enough. One retired pig farmhand is enough. Be your own man.

Feel free to blast JW's commentary but the e-mails are real, courtesy of FOIA.
   44. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5586749)
You seem weirdly obsessed with our opinion as to why Mueller acted like he did. We don't have the information Mueller has, and given what we do know I see no reason why Mueller should have to answer other than he did.
Grassley requested the information and Mueller refused to comply. But that's ok: we know you don't care.
   45. Lassus Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5586750)
Judicial Watch:
Founded in 1994, it has sued the administrations of Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama. Most of its lawsuits have been dismissed.[2] As of October 2016 it was the plaintiff in more than 20 ongoing lawsuits involving Hillary Clinton.[2]

stated Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton. “How much more evidence do we need that the Mueller operation has been irredeemably compromised by anti-Trump partisans? Shut it down.”
Also, I would avoid asking Larry Klayman about Tom Fitton.
   46. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5586751)
32...i agree Pence would be worse. The chutzpah of that guy...before Trump chose him he was in no ones list of candidates for a nationwide office. He was the highest profile toady that would debase himself by accepting Trump's offer.

Pence is portrayed so accurately on "The President Show".
   47. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5586753)
Still nothing on the interwebs regarding the subpeona other than a couple of tweets saying that Trump's lawyer denies it. Fake news indeed.

No, there are reports about the White House denying any such subpoena has been issued:
White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders on Tuesday disputed reports that special counsel Robert Mueller has subpoenaed President Trump’s bank records. “We confirmed that the news reports [that] the special counsel had subpoenaed financial records related to the president are completely false,” Sanders said during the daily press briefing.

“No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources. I think this is another example of the media going too far and too fast and we don't see it going in that direction," she said.

If the Deutsche Bank story heads south, that's three significant anti-Trump stories that have blown up over the last few days. Tossing everything against the wall, hoping some of it sticks, isn't a good look even for comments here, much less those claiming to adhere to any actual journalistic standards.
   48. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5586754)

And like many of the lefties here, you refuse to offer an answer as to why Mueller refused to answer Grassley for three-plus months when asked why Strzok was removed.
Well, I'll respond: not knowing what Grassley actually asked, or what Mueller said in response, I can't possibly know why Mueller said what I don't know he said in response to a question in which I don't know what was asked, but perhaps Mueller was trying to avoid the silliness we've seen this week.
   49. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:44 PM (#5586755)
What's that, Lassus? They sued the obviously liberal Democrat George W. Bush when he was POTUS? Oh my.
   50. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:44 PM (#5586756)
Gotta love that the takeaway for JE isn't that Trump is a dangerous con man with no respect for the independence of the DOJ -- but that the entire Mueller investigation should be shut down.

You know when a highly placed DOJ official writes:

Thank you AG Yates. I’ve been in civil/appellate for 30 years and have never seen an administration with such contempt for democratic values and the rule of law. The President’s order is an unconstitutional embarrassment and I applaud you for taking a principled stand against defending it.”


it might be wise to listen to what they are saying. 30 years, so that would be reagan, and bush, and clinton, and bush and obama and trump. So mostly GOP, and yet the official didn't feel the need to say that Trump was worse than Reagan or Obama was better than Bush (1 or 2): but that Trump was dangerously out of line with the norms.

Come on JE put down the ####### partisan pen.
   51. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:44 PM (#5586757)
If the Deutsche Bank story heads south, that's three significant anti-Trump stories that have blown up over the last few days. Tossing everything against the wall, hoping some of it sticks, isn't a good look even for comments here, much less those claiming to adhere to any actual journalistic standards.


The MSM is in "keep hope alive" mode, not reporting the news mode. Pretty pathetic.

We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources.


"Other sources" there is quite likely Mueller's office itself.
   52. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:45 PM (#5586759)
Grassley requested the information and Mueller refused to comply. But that's ok: we know you don't care.


And? What I asked, and ask again in hopes you answer, is why you are obsessed with having liberals here answer why? Seriously there are a million possible reason Mueller answered as he has - you can make guesses as well as any of us, and you will like your own guesses WAY better than ours.

EDIT: Coke to David, I like his answer better.
   53. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:47 PM (#5586760)
No, there are reports about the White House denying any such subpoena has been issued:


Is this supposed to be evidence for or against the DB story? I mean given the White House track record under Trump I think it gives credence to the story it may not deserve.
   54. Lassus Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5586761)
What's that, Lassus? They sued the obviously liberal Democrat George W. Bush when he was POTUS? Oh my.

Yeah, don't you love my selective partisan editing? ???
   55. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5586763)

Also, I would avoid asking Larry Klayman about Tom Fitton.
I would avoid speaking to Larry Klayman entirely. If you find yourself in the same room as him, avoid eye contact and back away slowly while reaching for a big stick to defend yourself with. He's a nut.
   56. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5586764)
Jason:

they sued because of Bush's guest worker program.

So basically he wasn't as much of a xenophobe nationalist as they hoped. But Trump!
   57. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5586766)
Come on JE put down the ####### partisan pen.
I said at the time and I'll say it again: Yates was insubordinate and deserved to be shitcanned.

It's the author of the e-mail who was engaged in lots of partisanship.
   58. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:56 PM (#5586767)
Remember kids. Jason would “never”* support Trump.

*unless that was his best game path to war with Iran of course.
   59. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:57 PM (#5586768)
Seriously there are a million possible reason Mueller answered as he has - you can make guesses as well as any of us, and you will like your own guesses WAY better than ours.
I'm interested in knowing. You're not.
   60. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5586770)
It's the author of the e-mail who was engaged in lots of partisanship.


And? Seriously there are many partisan people in Washington. Should all of them be in trouble? Should you be allowed to work ever in a non-partisan fashion? I mean you have said plenty of partisan things, does that make you ineligible for non-partisan tasks?
   61. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5586772)
Is this supposed to be evidence for or against the DB story?

It's a response to Misirlou's contention in #34 that there was nothing reported beyond tweets from Trump's lawyer, There's a WH statement, that's been widely reported.
   62. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5586773)
I'm interested in knowing. You're not.


I am interested in knowing, not guessing. You are interested in liberals here guessing and making points off of it, not knowing.
   63. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5586774)
It's a response to Misirlou's contention in #34 that there was nothing reported beyond tweets from Trump's lawyer, There's a WH statement, that's been widely reported


And, do you think it makes the DB story more or less credible, given the current White House's relationship with the truth?
   64. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5586775)
And? Seriously there are many partisan people in Washington. Should all of them be in trouble?
If they've got Strzok's responsibilties? Or Weisman's? Absolutely.

As Guy Benson, also no Trumpkin, reminds:
Strzok interviewed Cheryl Mills and Huma Abedin during the Clinton email probe, and they lied to him about when they were aware of their boss' server scheme. Why weren't they charged with lying to the FBI?
If Strzok won't answer, ask Comey.
   65. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5586776)
It's the author of the e-mail who was engaged in lots of partisanship.


Deserved has nothing to do with it. I don't give a #### about Yates. I care about a president weaponizing the DOJ, practically begging them to investigate a private citizen in order to take the heat off his own legal issues.

Not every single thing is partisan. Attacking democratic institutions and norms is not helpful and is dangerous.
   66. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:03 PM (#5586778)
And, do you think it makes the DB story more or less credible, given the current White House's relationship with the truth?


As opposed to the MSM's? Surely, you jest.

Google "Brian Ross."
   67. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5586784)
As opposed to the MSM's? Surely, you jest.


Are Breitbart and Drudge the MSM? Because there is still nothing there*. You would think that if anyone would be reporrting this blockbuster story it would be them.

*As of 5:08 EST. Timestamped so that Clapper can't come back 2 hours later if something does show up and again claim I'm lying.
   68. BrianBrianson Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5586787)
I'm interested in knowing. You're not.


I have to admit, watching SBB panic as he doesn't know whether Mueller has issued a subpoena to DB or not, and thus doesn't know how to condemn him for making a totally immoral decision, is a lot of fun.
   69. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5586788)
“This is an astonishing and disturbing find. Andrew Weisman, a key prosecutor on Robert Mueller’s team, praised Obama DOJ holdover Sally Yates after she lawlessly thwarted President Trump,” stated Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton. “How much more evidence do we need that the Mueller operation has been irredeemably compromised by anti-Trump partisans? Shut it down.”

This is a pathetic and unhinged cite. Going all in on The Party of Donald F'n Trump and The Alabama Teen Molester because you hate libs.
   70. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:13 PM (#5586790)
Google "Brian Ross."


Ok

In October 2001, Ross twice linked Iraq to the anthrax attacks in the United States. These reports, based on anonymous "high level" sources, were denied by the administration.[7] In November 2001, Ross updated the story, acknowledging that original reports of bentonite in the anthrax samples were incorrect.[8] Glenn Greenwald criticized Ross for the story, stating that Ross unwittingly helped build support for the invasion of Iraq as a result of this high-profile report.


Librulbias supported the Great War of Adventure in Iraq!
   71. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5586795)
Librulbias supported the Great War of Adventure in Iraq!


And the NYTs! FFS, if only our MSM "lefties" were as brazenly agenda driven as Breitbart or Fox News. We'd probably win a few more elections, among other things.
   72. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5586796)
#61:
It's a response to Misirlou's contention in #34 that there was nothing reported beyond tweets from Trump's lawyer, There's a WH statement, that's been widely reported.


A possible explanation:

Deutsche Bank subpoena is reported: ~4:00 AM
Jay Sekulow denial: ~noon
Sarah Sanders denial: ~2:30 PM

Chronology, you dirtbag you.
   73. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:33 PM (#5586807)

So far, @realdonaldtrump has not tweeted a single thing about the alleged Deutche Bank subpoenas. Hmm...
   74. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:35 PM (#5586808)

As opposed to the MSM's?
Yes.
Google "Brian Ross."
Still pretending you can't tell the difference between an error and a lie, eh? Or maybe you are actually too dumb to know the difference?
   75. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:36 PM (#5586809)
So far, @realdonaldtrump has not tweeted a single thing about the alleged Deutche Bank subpoenas. Hmm...


John Dowd must be out sick.
   76. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5586812)
Hopefully the Douche Bank subpoena sent Trump to the toilet with raging diarrhea.
   77. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5586813)
Still pretending you can't tell the difference between an error and a lie, eh? Or maybe you are actually too dumb to know the difference?


Intent is irrelevant to dependability and credibility, the issues at hand.

And as previously noted, it's in Trump's interest to have the DB story be true, not false.
   78. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5586814)
I care about a president weaponizing the DOJ
Oh? Do you care about this act of weaponization?
(Reuters) - The U.S. Justice Department has reached a settlement with dozens of conservative groups that claimed the Internal Revenue Service unfairly scrutinized them based on their political leanings when they sought a tax-exempt status, court documents showed.

In a pair of lawsuits filed in federal court in 2013, the conservative groups accused the IRS of targeting organizations with such words as “Tea Party” or “patriots” when they applied to the agency for tax-exempt status starting in 2010.

The sides asked the United States District Court for the District of Columbia on Wednesday to issue a declarative judgment in one of the cases involving 41 plaintiffs that would say the IRS was wrong to apply the United States tax laws based on an entity’s name, position or association with a particular political movement.

”We hope that today’s settlement makes clear that this abuse of power will not be tolerated,” Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in a statement on Thursday.
Using the Justice Department to influence the 2012 election isn't an attack on democracy?

I'll hang up and listen to your outrage...
   79. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:43 PM (#5586816)
John Dowd must be out sick.


But Sekulow (sp) wasn't, so it's all good.
   80. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5586817)
There's a WH statement, that's been widely reported.


That WH statement has finally showed up on Fox news, but it's not a denial. It is merely a re-statement of Sekulow's statement. IOW, Sanders didn't deny it. She merely said Sekulow denies it. I think that's telling, because when this White House wants to deny something, they aren't coy about it. You have no doubt what they are saying and what they mean.
   81. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5586818)
Meanwhile, Russia has been banned from the upcoming Winter Olympics...sort of. Apparently, most if not all Russian athletes (including the hockey team) will be allowed to compete anyway, if they're considered "clean". This seems to be a slap against Putin personally. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
   82. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5586820)
I'm so tired of the whataboutism. It's not the same, it's not even close, stop trying to argue it.

Using the Justice Department to influence the 2012 election isn't an attack on democracy?


What are you even talking about the article you linked was about JEFF SESSIONS' DOJ coming to a settlement on the suit. Gee, wonder what motivation they'd have to settle under their new GOP overlord Trump.

The suit had nothing to do with the DOJ it was the IRS "scandal".
   83. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5586821)
Hopefully the Douche Bank subpoena sent Trump to the toilet with raging diarrhea.


Raging diarrhea is what the rest of the world calls his Twitter feed.
   84. JJ1986 Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:47 PM (#5586822)
FBI Agents can't investigate Trump; they are biased because of all the terrible things he says about the FBI.
   85. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:48 PM (#5586825)
I'm so tired of the whataboutism. It's not the same, it's not even close, stop trying to argue it.
Shorter MV: History began in 2016. Also, call me a waaaaambulance!
   86. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:49 PM (#5586827)
Shorter MV: History began in 2016. Also, call me a waaaaambulance!


did you even read the article you linked? It has nothing to do with Obama "weaponizing" the DOJ. Furthermore, Obama fired the guy responsible for the IRS partisanship. And there was never any evidence (which you'd think Sessions would have gleefully noted) that Obama had any idea what Miller was doing at the IRS wrt to the Tea party.

So on one case we have a rogue operator at the IRS getting fired over partisan bullshit and in the other we have the POTUS making the highly unusual step of asking his DOJ via twitter to investigate his Democratic opponent in the prior election cycle.

Only in your jaundiced eyes are the two even remotely equivalent.
   87. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:50 PM (#5586828)
The suit had nothing to do with the DOJ it was the IRS "scandal".
That was the point, genius. It was about the attack on Tea Party groups and other conservative outfits and their efforts to organize, in part for the 2012 election. And thanks for the scare quotes.

Wake us when your serious, k?
   88. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:54 PM (#5586831)
Furthermore, Obama fired the guy responsible for the IRS partisanship. And there was never any evidence (which you'd think Sessions would have gleefully noted) that Obama had any idea what Miller was doing at the IRS wrt to the Tea party.
Obama also committed obstruction of justice (at least if we apply it the way you're anxious to do it WRT Trump) by confidently claiming from the very beginning that there was no conspiracy, just a few rogue locals.
   89. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:55 PM (#5586832)
That was the point, genius. It was about the attack on Tea Party groups and other conservative outfits and their efforts to organize, in part for the 2012 election. And thanks for the scare quotes.


Just admit you didn't even read it dude. Obama didn't weaponize #### at the IRS. When he found out about it, he fired the guy responsible. Get back to me when you find Obama trashing his own IC, his own FBI, and begging his DOJ to investigate John McCain on twitter.

Obama also committed obstruction of justice (at least if we apply it the way you're anxious to do it WRT Trump) by confidently claiming from the very beginning that there was no conspiracy, just a few rogue locals.


You didn't even read your own link:'

House Republican investigators found no connection to the Obama administration, according to a 2014 report.
   90. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 05:57 PM (#5586833)
(which you'd think Sessions would have gleefully noted)
Which part of "We hope that today’s settlement makes clear that this abuse of power will not be tolerated" do you fail to comprehend?
   91. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:01 PM (#5586834)
Just admit you didn't even read it dude. Obama didn't weaponize #### at the IRS. When he found out about it, he fired the guy responsible.
First of all, the name is "Lerner." Second, the "guy" is a woman.

And the agreement reached last month points the finger directly at her, an Obama political appointee.
   92. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5586836)
Which part of "”We hope that today’s settlement makes clear that this abuse of power will not be tolerated" do you fail to comprehend?


You cut off the context for my parenthetical you dishonest partisan hack.

Again, from your own team:


House Republican investigators found no connection to the Obama administration, according to a 2014 report.



I'm moving on. Please bother to read the substance of your own links in the future.
   93. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:06 PM (#5586839)
Jason is mere weeks away from citing The Gateway Pundit as a source. It's a matter of when, not if.
   94. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5586840)
   95. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:08 PM (#5586841)
Furthermore, Obama fired the guy responsible for the IRS partisanship.


If this is about Lerner going after "non profit" political groups that were not actually non-profit it's not even partisanship. While the original "scandal" was sold as a political operation by President Jungle Savage against poor, put upon Tea Party patriots, the actual long form investigation found that the IRS went after far more liberal groups than right wingers.

Doesn't fit Jason's talking points, so he conveniently ignores it.
   96. madvillain Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:10 PM (#5586842)
LOL, I see the Washington Times, Breitbart, the WSJ editorial pages and the Weekly Standard are all banging this "growing IRS scandal under Lerner" this week. JFC man your talking points are just the hackiest of hacks.

   97. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5586843)
LOL, I see the Washington Times, Breitbart, the WSJ editorial pages and the Weekly Standard are all banging this "growing IRS scandal under Lerner" this week.
No ####, Sherlock. That was because *she* asked a federal judge to permanently seal her depositions.
   98. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:17 PM (#5586846)
Strzok interviewed Cheryl Mills and Huma Abedin during the Clinton email probe, and they lied to him about when they were aware of their boss' server scheme. Why weren't they charged with lying to the FBI?

IIRC, the evidence that they lied were emails asking/commenting that "the server" was down when emails weren't going through. I ask the same question of colleagues when emails aren't going through. That doesn't mean I have any knowledge of how my firm's servers are set up, it just means I'm trying to figure out whether it's a firm-wide problem or just a problem with my connection/computer.
   99. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:23 PM (#5586849)
IIRC, the "evidence" that they lied were emails asking/commenting that "the server" was down when emails weren't going through. I ask the same question of colleagues when emails aren't going through. That doesn't mean I have any knowledge of how my firm's servers are set up, it just means I'm trying to figure out whether it's a firm-wide problem or just a problem with my connection/computer.
Except one of the e-mails in question was directed at a longtime aide to Bill Clinton who had helped set up the homebrewed server. And as it's been pointed out, setting up a server which her confidantes, which include Abedin and Mills, very well knew was bound to direct classified info through it speaks to intent.
   100. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 05, 2017 at 06:30 PM (#5586850)
.pilF
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