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Tuesday, December 05, 2017

OTP 04 December 2017: Baseball group accused of ‘united front’ tactics

New Power Party (NPP) Legislator Hsu Yung-ming (徐永明) said that the baseball association should bear the brunt of the blame for letting Taiwanese players become political tools in China’s “united front” strategy and for giving Chinese media an opportunity to promote the “both sides of the Strait are one family” view without restraint.

China is not a top-tier nation in baseball and positive effects on Taiwanese baseball from the tournament would be limited, Hsu said.

The Chinese Taipei Baseball Association should not go along with China, he said, adding that the Sports Administration should investigate whether the association accepted financial aid and whether it reported issues to the government in advance.

“The government should clearly standardize the guidelines for cross-strait sports exchanges,” Hsu added.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 05, 2017 at 08:57 AM | 1673 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: china, politics, taiwan

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   1101. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:07 PM (#5588451)
Watching the second episode of Horace and Pete on Hulu even though Louis CK has been disappeared. Hmm. It’s almost as if a sincere fellow poster was making #### up.
   1102. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:07 PM (#5588452)
I just don't see how you can put together a list of regular OTP posters to be mocked for general absurdity or whatever and not include Sam. He's batshit insane.


I mock them because they're Trump apologists, if not out and out supporters. Dancing Monkeys. Useful idiots.

edit...so, not for "whatever".
   1103. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:12 PM (#5588454)
Is it too much to ask, if an item is labeled as an "exclusive", to also note its source? In this case, Fox News?
Fox News has a stable of top reporters, including Rosen.
   1104. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5588455)
Strangely, I haven't heard anyone make the argument, "If Nunes has been investigating this for a year and hasn't found anything, there must not be anything to find."
Aren't we forgetting that the bogus complaint pursued by Democrats meant that Nunes got sidelined/silenced for several months?
   1105. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:18 PM (#5588456)
I'm masochistic so I turned on Hannity - all in on the corrupt partisan FBI! Such transparent flailing to give Trump cover to shut the investigation down. I actually am skeptical it will work, Trump firing Mueller would be an obviously impeachable offense and very dangerous for him.
   1106. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:21 PM (#5588457)
I wouldn't be surprised if Nunes' colleagues call him a Dancing Monkey (or something similar) behind his back. Hannity is a Dancing Monkey. Alex Jones is the Uber Dancing Monkey.
   1107. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5588461)
Honestly I'm surprised Nunes was cleared, given his bumbling efforts to obstruct the House investigation. But you shouldn't be that concerned, other congressional Republicans are also trying to cover for Trump.
   1108. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:38 PM (#5588462)
Trump firing Mueller would be an obviously impeachable offense and very dangerous for him.
Karl Rove agrees:
If Mr. Trump has done nothing wrong—and so far there has been no evidence of collusion with the Russians—then he has nothing to fear. Mr. Mueller has indicted only people who created problems for themselves. Paul Manafort and Richard Gates were allegedly caught up by shenanigans in Ukraine and trying to bring their ill-gotten gains home without paying taxes. George Papadopoulos and Mike Flynn lied to the FBI.

The president should wall off the investigation and focus on his Oval Office duties. He should pay the legal costs for staff caught up in the inquiry or allow them to set up legal-defense funds. Most important, he should calmly express confidence in the outcome. Raging against the probe only deepens the belief that he’s guilty of something, while also burying any good news about his policy victories.

If Mr. Mueller wants Americans to trust his ultimate findings, he faces his own challenges. He must conduct himself in a way that builds greater public confidence. Firing Mr. Strzok was critical, but his staff of lawyers has too many politically active Democrats. He has irritated Congress by withholding documents. He must overcome the deep distrust of the FBI created by James Comey’s dramatic non-indictment of Hillary Clinton last year.

Still, the next move is the president’s. Mr. Trump has shown himself to be impulsive and vindictive, often punching down at targets better ignored. But if he fires Mr. Mueller, he would ignite a political conflagration that would consume him, those around him, and his entire presidency.
   1109. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:39 PM (#5588463)
Jolly Andy, #1021:
I was 14 that year, and sold all my comic books and magazines (1400 of them, for a penny apiece) to finance my first date


I hope you got laid, 'cause I know you got screwed. Today, MAD #38 goes for $225 in near mint condition, down to $18 in raggedy beat-up condition.


In that case it would've been more like the $18, which would've been $2.12 in 1958 dollars. So I still got screwed, but then my mom would've thrown everything out if I hadn't sold them. Clearly she was being Svegalied by future Comic Book Guys, because if mothers hadn't thrown away 99.99% of those old comic book and baseball card collections, Comic Book Guys would all be on welfare.
   1110. strong silence Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:43 PM (#5588466)
OTP posters didn't vote for Trump.

And I've been reading more admissions from posters who didn't vote for Clinton.

Y'all left it to yokels, dumbasses, and know nothings to decide the President.

What cowards.

   1111. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:43 PM (#5588467)
The Grab-Ass State's leading newspaper has some speculation as to who might run for Franken's former seat in the 2018 special election:
Meanwhile, a variety of party big names would likely consider running for the U.S. Senate seat now held by Franken: U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison, who would be the state’s first black senator; two other U.S. representatives, Rep. Betty McCollum and Rep. Rick Nolan; or state Rep. Ilhan Omar, who would become the Senate’s first Somali-American member.

Several current candidates for governor might also reconsider and run for Franken’s seat, including U.S. Rep. Tim Walz or St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman. Attorney General Lori Swanson, also widely believed to be considering a run for governor, could run for the Senate instead.

Republicans would also try to mount a serious candidate, having not won a statewide race since Tim Pawlenty was re-elected governor in 2006. … Pawlenty would be at the top of any list of potential candidates.

Former Sen. Norm Coleman, whom Franken beat in their epic 2008 battle, is another possibility, as is Emmer or U.S. Rep. Erik Paulsen. State Senate Majority Leader Paul Gazelka and House Speaker Kurt Daudt both have rising profiles.

Speculation that Franken might try a comeback by 2018 is intriguing, but seems unlikely. Too soon, as they say.
   1112. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:45 PM (#5588469)
If there are a billion bloodthirsty NFL fans, the sponsors won't feel that they have to distance themselves from the NFL. No, the problem isn't sponsors; the problem is trial lawyers. It doesn't take millions of disapproving people to kill the NFL; it takes 12.

I won't claim a coke for that, but that's only because I made the same point hours ago in the NFL thread and not here.
   1113. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:47 PM (#5588470)
The French Ambassador to the United States, Gérard Araud, tweeted this today. Seriously.

"HOLEEEEEE CRAP" is right. This ###### should be forced to speak German, then expel his sorry ass.
   1114. madvillain Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5588472)
I won't claim a coke for that, but that's only because I made the same point hours ago in the NFL thread and not here.


Mothers are what's going to kill the NFL. I'm thinking they have to go to soft helmets. I love football but something has to change.
   1115. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:53 PM (#5588475)
Karl Rove is right! (that it would be politically disastrous to fire Mueller). Mueller still might be fired if he gets close to what Trump is trying to cover up (Matt Yglesias has pointed out a bunch of times that it is risky for Republicans to help Trump with a cover up when they don't know what's being covered up). But I imagine that would be closer to some sort of end game for the Russia investigation than we are now.

Karl Rove is wrong! (that there's no evidence of collusion so far). There's a ton of evidence. "There's no evidence of collusion yet" is one of those lines that's repeated so often the people saying it seem to have convinced themselves it's true.
   1116. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:56 PM (#5588477)
Karl Rove is wrong! (that there's no evidence of collusion so far). There's a ton of evidence. "There's no evidence of collusion yet" is one of those lines that's repeated so often the people saying it seem to have convinced themselves it's true.
We know of evidence of criminal collusion? Really?
   1117. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:56 PM (#5588478)
I can only imagine what would've been made of this story if it'd been about Hillary Clinton:

White House: Trump has scheduled a physical, and his slurred speech was caused by a dry throat

President Trump has scheduled a physical health exam for early next year at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center and will share the results with the public, the White House announced Thursday, a day after Trump's slurred speech sparked concern about his health.

Trump slurred his words during a policy address Wednesday about Israel, inspiring media speculation that he may have had a dental or health problem. But White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Thursday that Trump simply was suffering from a dry throat....

At age 70, Trump was the oldest president elected to his first term. During his nearly one year as president, Trump, now 71, has not publicly released any medical records.

In September 2016, during the general election campaign, Trump released a doctor's note that included some medical information. Trump also discussed his health during a taping of “The Dr. Oz Show,” a television talk show.

Asked last week whether Trump would get an annual physical and report his health information to the public, as his predecessors have, Sanders said she did not know. But she testified to Trump's endurance.

“I do know that I spent 12 days on the road with him in Asia, and despite the fact that he's a little bit older than me, he had twice the energy that I do — and I'm the one sick now, and he's still going,” Sanders said Nov. 30 at her daily news briefing. “So I think he's in pretty good health. But I'd be happy to share any information.”


I'm sure that his doctor will just tell Trump "Take two Big Macs, two Filet-O-Fishes, and a large chocolate milkshake three times a day, and keep tweeting all night." At least that's what most people will hope he tells him.

   1118. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:57 PM (#5588479)
"There's no evidence of collusion yet" is...


...wishful thinking. As if Mueller broadcasts his every finding as they are found.
   1119. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:58 PM (#5588480)
Ian Miles Cheong:
Porn actress August Ames apparently killed herself because she stated she wouldn't want to do scenes with men who've done gay porn scenes, so she got bullied online, lost her potential gigs, and killed herself.

Good job, SJWs. Back pats all around.
   1120. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:59 PM (#5588482)
It doesn't get any more true on the 25th repetition.
You are correct. Things can't get more true than 100%.
   1121. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5588483)
The French Ambassador to the United States, Gérard Araud, tweeted this today. Seriously.

"HOLEEEEEE CRAP" is right. This ###### should be forced to speak German, then expel his sorry ass.


Maybe he should first be required to take Remedial History 101. The French and the UK confronted the fascist powers in the 30's??!!!! Christ, even the ####### Soviet Union made more of a pretense of that than the ####### French and the ####### Brits.
   1122. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:04 PM (#5588484)
1119- what a deeply reported story! (If true that she killed herself, or it was because of online bullying, then that is terrible; that tweet from a notorious ####### doesn't prove anything).
   1123. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:08 PM (#5588488)
We know of evidence of criminal collusion? Really?


Rove's statement was about collusion, not "criminal" collusion. There is plenty of evidence of collusion (emails, meetings, changing policy, reaching out to Russia during the transition to ease sanctions, and constant lying and obstruction of justice which both suggest malfeasance). It's not been proven yet, which is not the same thing as saying there is no evidence. There are many forms of collusion that would not clearly be crimes (would it be a crime for the Trump campaign to help wikileaks time email dumps? To change policy in exchange for help against Clinton? I don't know.), so I don't know how strong the evidence of "criminal" collusion is.
   1124. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:09 PM (#5588489)
The only reason I am aware of Cheong is because he gets owned on twitter on the regular. But whatever it takes to virtue signal that you din’t like SJW.
   1125. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5588491)

We know of evidence of criminal collusion? Really?
We know of evidence of collusion. Whether it's criminal is a separate question (and only partially relevant to whether it's impeachable). I mean, the president's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager took a meeting with a Russian government agent after being told that the meeting was because the Russian government was trying to help them win the election. (With the son saying, "I love it" in response to the proposal.) You can argue that no laws were broken, but that is collusion. We have a campaign foreign policy advisor being told that the Russians had thousands of hacked emails to give to the campaign, and him being told by the campaign chairman to go ahead and try to set up a meeting in Russia. Again, you want to argue about whether laws were broken, fine, but don't question where the evidence of collusion is.
   1126. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5588492)
1119- what a deeply reported story!

Here's the full-length article, Count.
   1127. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:12 PM (#5588493)
We know of evidence of collusion.
This goes both ways. If collusion (as opposed to criminal collusion) isn't a crime, then Democrats should stop bleating as if it is one.
   1128. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:12 PM (#5588494)
If there are a billion bloodthirsty NFL fans, the sponsors won't feel that they have to distance themselves from the NFL. No, the problem isn't sponsors; the problem is trial lawyers. It doesn't take millions of disapproving people to kill the NFL; it takes 12.

I won't claim a coke for that, but that's only because I made the same point hours ago in the NFL thread and not here.

Mothers are what's going to kill the NFL. I'm thinking they have to go to soft helmets. I love football but something has to change.


Maybe so, but there are almost as many injuries per participant in helmetless rugby as there are in American football, and that doesn't factor in the different speeds between the sports at the point of body collision.
   1129. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:15 PM (#5588496)
We know of evidence of collusion.

If collusion isn't a crime, then Democrats should stop bleating about it, as if it is a crime.

So if Democrats agreed to do that, will Republicans in return fully admit its non-criminal degree of seriousness?
   1130. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5588498)
If collusion isn't a crime, then Democrats should stop bleating as if it is one.


We're getting somewhere, you went from denial to acceptance in ten minutes!
   1131. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5588499)

This goes both ways. If collusion (as opposed to criminal collusion) isn't a crime, then Democrats should stop bleating as if it is one.
First, as I noted, it can be impeachable even isn't a crime. Second, if we have all this evidence of collusion already (and we do), then Republicans should stop bleating as if we don't, and should stop acting as if the investigation(s) have been failures at this early stage.
   1132. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:18 PM (#5588500)
I'm sure Miss Ames had a healthy and stable psychological foundation before her twitter account was rudely flooded with messages.
   1133. madvillain Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5588501)
lol, is that Milo's new site Jason is linking?
   1134. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5588502)
We're getting somewhere, you went from denial to acceptance in ten minutes!
I'm sorry. Did you just bleat something?
   1135. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5588503)
I thought that the soft helmets, while decreasing the rate of concussions, increased the rate of, like, on-field death.
   1136. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5588506)
I'm sorry. Did you just bleat something?


Seriously, do you think collusion isn't bad or shouldn't be investigated?
   1137. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:25 PM (#5588507)
I'm sure Miss Ames had a healthy and stable psychological foundation before her twitter account was rudely flooded with messages.
Not the point. When did "our bodies, our selves" give way to "have sex with these men -- or else?"
lol, is that Milo's new site Jason is linking?
How funny. I didn't even know that ######### had started a web site, let alone this one. Certainly didn't know you were following him around.
   1138. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5588510)
Seriously, do you think collusion isn't bad or shouldn't be investigated?
Sigh. Investigate away but there's no publicly available evidence of criminal collusion.

And my point remains: If you're gonna smack Rove for what you view as a careless use of "collusion," then apply it across the board.
   1139. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:31 PM (#5588511)
Not the point.


When you post quotes without commentary, it's difficult to guess what your point is. You linked to someone that blamed liberals for her death.
   1140. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:39 PM (#5588513)
Sigh. Investigate away but there's no publicly available evidence of criminal collusion.

And my point remains: If you're gonna smack Rove for what you view as a careless use of "collusion," then apply it across the board.


I should have clarified - do you think non-criminal collusion isn't bad or shouldn't be investigated? Also I wasn't smacking Rove for careless use of "collusion," I was criticizing him for lying (or being wildly misinformed) about the evidence. I am criticizing *you* for changing Rove's terms from "collusion" to "criminal collusion."

Surely the hypothetical acts I listed above - "would it be a crime for the Trump campaign to help wikileaks time email dumps? To change policy in exchange for help against Clinton?" are bad and worth investigating regardless of whether they are criminal.
   1141. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:44 PM (#5588516)
How much longer before straight guys are labeled bigots for not wanting to have sex with TGs?
   1142. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:46 PM (#5588517)
I should have clarified - do you think non-criminal collusion isn't bad or shouldn't be investigated? Also I wasn't smacking Rove for careless use of "collusion," I was criticizing him for lying (or being wildly misinformed) about the evidence. I am criticizing *you* for changing Rove's terms from "collusion" to "criminal collusion."

Surely the hypothetical acts I listed above - "would it be a crime for the Trump campaign to help wikileaks time email dumps? To change policy in exchange for help against Clinton?" are bad and worth investigating regardless of whether they are criminal.
Congress should continue looking into what happened in 2016 and Mueller's entitled to his pound of flesh. A far greater concern is the appearance of different standards depending on who's being investigated.
   1143. Count Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:52 PM (#5588518)
Congress should continue looking into what happened in 2016 and Mueller's entitled to his pound of flesh. A far greater concern is the appearance of different standards depending on who's being investigated.


What do you mean?
   1144. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:56 PM (#5588519)
I mean, the president's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager took a meeting with a Russian government agent after being told that the meeting was because the Russian government was trying to help them win the election. (With the son saying, "I love it" in response to the proposal.)


Indeed this was stupid. They should have paid Fusion GPS to pay Steele to meet with the Russians.
   1145. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:02 PM (#5588521)
When you post quotes without commentary, it's difficult to guess what your point is. You linked to someone that blamed liberals for her death.


Not liberals; leftists.

And I don't blame them per se. As with most suicides, especially at young ages, mental illness is the primary driver. The leftist twitter trolls with miserable lives might have triggered her, but she was likely headed for an early demise in any event.

But even setting her suicide, we see that the trolls were demanding she have sex with the people *they* demanded she have sex with; it wasn't her decision to have or not have sex with anyone she wanted or didn't want, for any reason or no reason. Not a good look.
   1146. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5588522)
And I've been reading more admissions from posters who didn't vote for Clinton.


I voted for Clinton. Bill twice and Hillary once. I didn't vote for either during the contested primaries they were in.
   1147. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:05 PM (#5588523)
What do you mean?
Once more: We deserve to know for certain that the dossier, which Comey admitted before Congress back in March was pretty much full of ####, nonetheless prompted the FBI to investigate the Trump campaign.
   1148. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:12 PM (#5588527)
A far greater concern is the appearance of different standards depending on who's being investigated.

Do you realize you've just #### on all the Benghazi investigations?
   1149. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5588530)
So he was never successful in getting a single actress to go willingly to his casting couch, in 35 years?

Well first of all, I am certainly not going to take Weinstein's word for who did and who didn't. Especially not when bragging to another girl he is trying to pressure into sex.

Secondly, it doesn't matter. They are the victims here, and the blame is still 100% with Weinstein. Outing them is just an act of slut-shaming, and trying to pass the blame to them, for being put into a no-win situation by a sleezeball. But hey, why stop your tour de force of misogyny now?
   1150. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:20 PM (#5588531)
Do you realize you've just #### on all the Benghazi investigations?
Oh? Thanks to the ARB, headed by Clintonista Tom Pickering, there were no interviews of the most senior State Department officials. In contrast, thanks to Trey Gowdy, we discovered Hillary's secret server -- yet you still won't send him a Christmas card.
   1151. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5588533)
Secondly, it doesn't matter. They are the victims here, and the blame is still 100% with Weinstein. Outing them is just an act of slut-shaming, and trying to pass the blame to them, for being put into a no-win situation by a sleezeball. But hey, why stop your tour de force of misogyny now?


Are you insane? I outed nobody. This is front page news on a number of online papers right now.

(Nor is it "misogyny" to point out the fact that some women willingly agree to the casting couch. Unless you're using the human definition.)
   1152. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:36 PM (#5588535)
@reaganbatallion:
Video: Roy Moore: Putin may be right, America is the focus of modern evil in the world.

@jpodhoretz
Roy Moore hates America. And maybe that's the secret. What's actually going on here is America-hatred--another parallel between 1960s left radicalism to 2010s right radicalism


The modern Republican Party, folks. And the Juanitas here eat it up. Can't get enough.
   1153. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:42 PM (#5588536)
It's really quite the marvel how brazenly obtuse the Trumpkins can be -

Why, if it weren't for Fusion GPS nobody would be talking about investigating Trump and Russia!

Well, except....

Up until about May of 2016, seems to me that a lot of Republicans were agog and aghast about the Putin mancrush...

And one of Trump's sparse foreign policy team had already been recruited once by Russian agents - who did time for it - and then, rather than wiping his brow that he wasn't charged, doubled down on his Russia humping... so much so, he became persona non grata... until Trump came along.

And Trump's campaign manager was a well-known Moscow stooge long before we - we being the general public - found out that he was also having serious liquidity problems and solving them with dirty cash from Russian puppets.

And yeah - since Trump's last bankruptcy, he rebuilt a fortune with an awful lot of Russian money, including chunks that involved no-doubt-about-it unsavory characters.

And the fact that it doesn't take a FISA warrant for the US to monitor communications of the known Russian spymaster on US soil... and hear about Jared's "secure channel" in the Russian embassy or Mike Flynn's lying to the FBI about a conversation that a 30 year intelligence veteran, former Director of Defense Intelligence, and incoming NSA would know damn well are party lines.

Anyone who seriously believes all this only came about because of an oppo research dossier is either lying, an idiot, or suffering from very specific bouts of amnesia and/or blindness and deafness.
   1154. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:45 PM (#5588538)
On eve of Trump visit, Mississippi blacks say he’s brought back troubles of the past

“It’s hostile now, more hostile than in a long, long time,” said Pete McElroy, who employs three men at the auto repair shop that has been his family’s business for three generations. “People almost boast about it: ‘We got our man in the White House, and this is the way the ball’s going to roll now.’ ”

...

“We’re losing a lot,” McElroy said here this week. “Losing Obamacare. Where are people going to go? Losing money. He’s making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Mostly, we’re losing respect. No way you can evade that. The way he speaks, the racists feel like they can say anything they want to us.”

...

“It’s getting worse, not better, not just for black Americans but for poor whites, too,” Brooks said. “You see the Confederate banner back up, the whole Confederate monuments thing. This country is going back to more segregation, and a museum makes people think that’s all history, that’s all fixed.”

...

“White men following me, intimidating my daughter — this is the craziest time I’ve ever seen,” said Sterling, 49, a Jackson resident and a cousin of Emmett Till, the 14-year-old black boy who was lynched in Mississippi in 1955 after a white woman accused him of flirting with her at her family’s grocery store.

“I used to say I could never have lived in the 1950s or ’60s, that I couldn’t have taken the pressure,” Sterling said. “Now it’s 2017 and I’ve had people follow me and threaten me with vitriol. It’s vitriol like I never heard before Trump.”

There are a few Upper West Siders Mr. Brooks should speak with before saying racism isn't 'fixed'. Shame on him.
   1155. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:46 PM (#5588539)
Are you insane? I outed nobody. This is front page news on a number of online papers right now.

(Nor is it "misogyny" to point out the fact that some women willingly agree to the casting couch. Unless you're using the human definition.)

You are the one posting it here, and pointing fingers at them, and drawing people's attention to it. Again, it serves no purpose, other than slut-shaming, and victim blaming. None at all.

It shouldn't be done for the same reason you shouldn't doxx people. Especially not when they are victims who want to be left alone. But you don't care about the actual victims, you don't care about their privacy, and you don't care about their feelings, or the fact that they were violated. You just care about using them to score points. And using women for your own agenda, without any concern for them, is pretty much the definition of misogyny.
   1156. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:59 PM (#5588541)
1153. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:42 PM (#5588536)
You had weeks to come up with something -- anything -- and that's the very best you could do? LMAO.

Only someone totally clueless would talk about that creep Manafort while ignoring the mounds of evidence showing that Hillary's peeps and Obama administration foreign policy team were chuck full of Kremlin apologists in good standing. (And let's be clear: Michael McFaul, Obama's Russia advisor, was talking with Kremlin officials during the 2008 campaign and transition. Was that some sort of Logan Act violation?)

And you know, one of these days, we'll go back, way back, back into time and relive all of the cutesy, wootsy things zonkie was saying about Mother Russia and Mitt Romney during the previous POTUS election.
   1157. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:08 AM (#5588542)
You are the one posting it here, and pointing fingers at them, and drawing people's attention to it. Again, it serves no purpose, other than slut-shaming, and victim blaming. None at all.

It shouldn't be done for the same reason you shouldn't doxx people. Especially not when they are victims who want to be left alone. But you don't care about the actual victims, you don't care about their privacy, and you don't care about their feelings, or the fact that they were violated. You just care about using them to score points. And using women for your own agenda, without any concern for them, is pretty much the definition of misogyny.


Talk about trolling. Or if you're actually serious, maybe Joe has some left over medicine you can take.
   1158. Jay Z Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:20 AM (#5588546)
Winning elections is not all that matters. I mean I don't agree with your analysis that this might hurt the Democrats in the long run, but even if it did it is the right thing to do. I don't want every single decision my political party to make to be all around winning elections. Some of that sort of thinking is natural and even healthy, but at some point you have to stand for what is right even if it hurts you. You sign the Civil Rights act even if it means you lose the South. You sign ACA even if it kills you in the next election.

Maybe the GOP only cares about elections, but I care about more than that and I want my party to also care about more that that as well.


But the things you are mentioning were actually voted upon by Representatives and Senators who were elected to, and seated in, Congress. So you need to win at least some of the elections.

What has happened to Franken right now is still political. It's believed to be expedient to jettison him now, may put pressure on the people on the other side, may not. If he was vital or something right now he'd stay. He isn't.

I have said that there is a line. The stuff Franken has been accused of doing, basically would only matter if it was an exact dead heat. If the only thing if cupping a boob or buttcheek the wrong way, sorry, lady or ladies. Bush vs. Gore 2000, we know Bush invaded Iraq, presumably Gore would not, I don't care if Gore tried to kiss someone he worked with. Not that I love Gore or anything, at that point there were two choices.
   1159. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:42 AM (#5588553)
You had weeks to come up with something -- anything -- and that's the very best you could do? LMAO.


It may surprise how little time and effort I put into fencing with whatever silly little defense mechanism you've developed to hide the shame of your slow slide into lapdogdom.

When exactly did this magic stopwatch start ticking? And how, exactly, did that come about?
   1160. zenbitz Posted: December 08, 2017 at 01:21 AM (#5588559)
Technically, France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, Sept 1939. Technically.
   1161. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 05:35 AM (#5588566)

And using women for your own agenda, without any concern for them, is pretty much the definition of misogyny.
Just to be clear, that is very much not in any way the definition of misogyny.
   1162. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2017 at 05:48 AM (#5588567)
Jason, your #1119 and follow-ups are a new low.
   1163. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 08, 2017 at 05:58 AM (#5588568)
Because shit has gotten real, the noise level from the conservative media has suddenly escalated, as they denounce the overreach/failure/illegality/expansion/corruption/general offensiveness of the most partisan, most unAmerican, most witch huntiest investigation to overturn an election in the entire history of ever.

Bloomberg News explains why all of it is likely to be futile:
The Dec. 1 plea deal struck with President Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn...helped ensure that his probe will continue, even if one day he’s not leading it.

...As Mueller’s probe has gotten closer to Trump’s inner orbit, speculation has risen over whether Trump might find a way to shut it down. The Flynn deal may make that harder. For one thing, it shows that Mueller is making progress. “Any rational prosecutor would realize that in this political environment, laying down a few markers would be a good way of fending off criticism that the prosecutors are burning through money and not accomplishing anything,” says Samuel Buell, a former federal prosecutor now at Duke Law School.

The Flynn plea also makes it difficult for Trump to fire Mueller without inviting accusations of a cover-up and sparking a constitutional crisis.

...Even if Mueller goes, his team is providing tools that other prosecutors or investigators can use to continue inquiries. Flynn’s deal requires him to cooperate with state and local officials as well as with federal investigators. That includes submitting to a polygraph test and taking part in “covert law enforcement activities.” Mueller also has provided a road map to state prosecutors interested in pursuing money laundering charges against Trump’s former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort. Mueller’s case against Manafort lays out a series of irregular wire transfers made from Manafort’s bank accounts in Cyprus... Mueller stopped short of filing charges related to where the money went. But by including the details in his indictment, he left open the possibility of bringing charges in a follow-up indictment and perhaps left breadcrumbs for state authorities to pursue.

...The president can pardon people convicted of federal crimes; only governors can pardon those convicted under state law. For prosecutors in New York, “the Manafort case is like a legal Chia Pet,” says [former DoJ prosecutor Michael] Weinstein. “Just add water, and it grows.” Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. is investigating the circumstances surrounding unusual real estate loans to Manafort from a bank run by Steve Calk, who served as an adviser to the Trump campaign. New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman is conducting his own Trump-related probe.

...“Before this is wrapped up, Mueller’s going to request an interview with the president, and he may even request it under oath,” says Amy Sabrin, a Washington lawyer who worked for Bill Clinton on the Paula Jones sexual harassment case. “And then what is Trump going to do?”
   1164. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 06:02 AM (#5588569)
You can argue that no laws were broken, but that is collusion.


So was Clinton's "oppo research," the only difference being that her people, unlike Trump's people, instigated the Russian contacts.(*)

What did she and/or her people offer the Russians in exchange for the information?

And again, this isn't to say Clinton did anything wrong -- she almost certainly didn't -- but to perform the very valuable public service of noting that for a principle to be applicable to Trump it would have to be equally applicable to not-Trump. The example of Tony Podesta taking a bunch of money from the Russian state bank to try to get sanctions overturned was much in the same vein.

(*) And of course the very big difference that Clinton's Russian-sourced info was then sold to the FBI which used it to "investigate" and wiretap the Trump campaign.
   1165. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 08, 2017 at 06:06 AM (#5588570)
Just to be clear, that is very much not in any way the definition of misogyny.

Objectification of women (viewing or treating them as a means towards an end, rather than person with their own agency) is very much part of any serious definition of misogyny.
   1166. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 06:10 AM (#5588571)
Nor is it "misogyny" to point out the fact that some women willingly agree to the casting couch.


Some women even -- gasp! -- instigate the casting couch.
   1167. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 06:11 AM (#5588572)
Objectification of women (viewing or treating them as a means towards an end, rather than person with their own agency)


You and yours are the ones denying them their agency. Quite clearly so.
   1168. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 06:23 AM (#5588573)
David Brooks faces the reality of Decline:

The Republican Party I grew up with admired excellence. It admired intellectual excellence (Milton Friedman, William F. Buckley), moral excellence (John Paul II, Natan Sharansky) and excellent leaders (James Baker, Jeane Kirkpatrick). Populism abandoned all that — and had to by its very nature. Excellence is hierarchical. Excellence requires work, time, experience and talent. Populism doesn’t believe in hierarchy. Populism doesn’t demand the effort required to understand the best that has been thought and said. Populism celebrates the quick slogan, the impulsive slash, the easy ignorant assertion. Populism is blind to mastery and embraces mediocrity.


A lot of what he talks about is social-media driven, which he doesn't really grapple with. In the modern tribal cacophony, there's no breathing room for excellence to flourish and reveal itself.
   1169. manchestermets Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:02 AM (#5588575)
I'm sure that his doctor will just tell Trump "Take two Big Macs, two Filet-O-Fishes, and a large chocolate milkshake three times a day, and keep tweeting all night." At least that's what most people will hope he tells him.


I believe the correct plural would be Filets-O-Fish, no?
   1170. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:07 AM (#5588576)
So was Clinton's "oppo research," the only difference being that her people, unlike Trump's people, instigated the Russian contacts.(*)


Who are the people in the Clinton campaign that had direct contact with the Russians?
And I mean, actual face-to-face or email communication, not some "they hired a company who then hired someone else on their own volition who then had contact with a Russian person" version of "contact".

I ask this genuinely because I must not know all the details because once you Americans start talking about Fusion GPS, I kind of lose control on who was hired for whom.
   1171. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:19 AM (#5588577)
I'm sure that his doctor will just tell Trump "Take two Big Macs, two Filet-O-Fishes, and a large chocolate milkshake three times a day, and keep tweeting all night." At least that's what most people will hope he tells him.

I believe the correct plural would be Filets-O-Fish, no?


I guess so, but that's the way Business Insider spelled it. Note the quotation marks.
   1172. manchestermets Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:28 AM (#5588580)
Who are the people in the Clinton campaign that had direct contact with the Russians?
And I mean, actual face-to-face or email communication, not some "they hired a company who then hired someone else on their own volition who then had contact with a Russian person" version of "contact".

I ask this genuinely because I must not know all the details because once you Americans start talking about Fusion GPS, I kind of lose control on who was hired for whom.


In addition to this, there is of course the repeated equivalence drawn between "some Russian people" and "the Russian government".
   1173. Greg K Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:34 AM (#5588581)

I believe the correct plural would be Filets-O-Fish, no?

I guess so, but that's the way Business Insider spelled it. Note the quotation marks.

There's no need for us to keep going down these semantic culs-de-sac!
   1174. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5588585)
Jason, your #1119 and follow-ups are a new low.
Substance-free Lassus returns!
   1175. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:08 AM (#5588586)
Who are the people in the Clinton campaign that had direct contact with the Russians?
What Team Clinton/DNC/OFA did with Fusion GPS and the Kremlin:
It's the smart move. Tessio was always smarter.
   1176. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:11 AM (#5588587)
So was Clinton's "oppo research,
It doesn't get any more true on the 25th repetition.


When I buy a new iPad from Best Buy, that is not "collusion" with Best Buy, and it certainly is not collusion with Apple, let alone with Foxconn.

What did she and/or her people offer the Russians in exchange for the information?
Nothing. Neither she nor her people had any contact with the Russians at all.
   1177. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:11 AM (#5588588)
...“Before this is wrapped up, Mueller’s going to request an interview with the president, and he may even request it under oath,” says Amy Sabrin, a Washington lawyer who worked for Bill Clinton on the Paula Jones sexual harassment case. “And then what is Trump going to do?”
Maybe I'm missing something but does anyone believe that Trump would agree to a "request" from Mueller to be interviewed under oath?
   1178. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:16 AM (#5588589)
In addition to this, there is of course the repeated equivalence drawn between "some Russian people" and "the Russian government".
What are you trying to say? Who met with "some Russian people?"
   1179. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5588590)
Substance-free Lassus returns!

Quoth the raven, "#evergreen" and "Oh".


Maybe I'm missing something but does anyone believe that Trump would agree to a "request" from Mueller to be interviewed under oath?

Probably not, but I can also see some manner of idiotic hubris playing into it as a possibility for assent.
   1180. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:28 AM (#5588591)
Trump's popularity falling with almost every demographic, poll finds

So much winning the people have in fact grown tired of it.

Key Findings:

* Trump's approval rating has fallen from 78% to 61% with white evangelical Protestants, a key constituency of his base.
* Now, only 41% of white voters approve of his performance, a 7% decline since February.
* His support among blacks dropped to just 7%, while his support was unchanged among Hispanics, at 17%.
   1181. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:31 AM (#5588593)
Objectification of women (viewing or treating them as a means towards an end, rather than person with their own agency) is very much part of any serious definition of misogyny.
It is not. Seriously. Misogyny = hatred of women, outside of Womyn's Studies classes. But even if "objectification" of women were misogyny, it would have to be objectification of women as a class, not objectification of specific people. Do you think being a baseball fan is misandry because we're looking at men as a means towards an end?

Do you think that a lawyer who looks at his (or her) clients as a means towards an end -- paying his own mortgage -- is a misogynist because some of those clients are women? Or a misandrist because some are men? Or am I -- er, I mean an unspecified lawyer -- a misanthrope because those clients are both?
   1182. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:31 AM (#5588594)
An interesting take on the Jerusalem announcement - Trump’s Jerusalem Announcement Is All About Iran

This is not to say that there won’t be any blowback from Trump’s announcement. There might well be. But I suspect that most Arab states in the Middle East care a lot less about the Palestinian cause than they claim, and are willing to keep the inevitable protests under tight control. They mostly understand three fundamental facts:

* There is no peace process, and there won’t be one anytime in the near future.
* Israel is going to continue to steadily take over the territory it wants, no matter what the rest of the world thinks. There is nothing short of war that will stop this, and there is no one with both the strength and inclination to stop them.
* Israel will allow neither the formation of a Palestinian state nor Palestinian integration into Israel.
   1183. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5588595)
Who are the people in the Clinton campaign that had direct contact with the Russians?
And I mean, actual face-to-face or email communication, not some "they hired a company who then hired someone else on their own volition who then had contact with a Russian person" version of "contact".
None. But not only does that point refute SBB's I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I trolling, but his use of the term "the Russians" also elides the difference between the Russian government, and people from Russia.

(And now he'll try to claim that some of Steele's sources worked for the Russian government. Which is true, but misleading; that doesn't mean that they were acting on behalf of the Russian government. Ed Snowden worked for the U.S. government under Obama. Sally Yates worked for the Trump administration. Doesn't mean that if they acted as confidential sources they were acting on behalf of the U.S. government.)
   1184. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5588596)
An interesting take on the Jerusalem announcement - Trump’s Jerusalem Announcement Is All About Iran
Thanks for sharing, Mouse. The headline is a bit misleading but a glance at the content suggests it's pretty spot-on.
   1185. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:42 AM (#5588598)
And now he'll try to claim that some of Steele's sources worked for the Russian government. Which is true, but misleading; that doesn't mean that they were acting on behalf of the Russian government.


LOL. We're back to the "postman in Vladivostok" again.

OK, then.

   1186. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5588599)

What are you trying to say? Who met with "some Russian people?"
Steele. But -- and coke to MM for making the point originally, and to reiterate what I said in 1183 -- there's no evidence those people were speaking for the government. And (if they were) even less evidence than that that Steele, Fusion, and especially Hillary knew they were.
   1187. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5588600)
Who are the people in the Clinton campaign that had direct contact with the Russians?


Christopher Steele, at least.
   1188. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5588601)
But -- and coke to MM for making the point originally, and to reiterate what I said in 1183 -- there's no evidence those people were speaking for the government.


It doesn't matter -- "speaking for the government" is another goalpost move and invented "criterion" -- but yes there is a lot of evidence, starting with their high-ranking positions and contacts.
   1189. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:46 AM (#5588602)
I ask this genuinely because I must not know all the details because once you Americans start talking about Fusion GPS, I kind of lose control on who was hired for whom.

This is one of the goals of The Juanitas, I’m afraid. Muddy the waters enough so that people give up trying to figure out an issue and throw up their hands, saying they’re all crooks. One of the hallmarks of the campaign of the intellectual and moral leader of the Republican Party, President Trump.
   1190. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5588603)

LOL. We're back to the "postman in Vladivostok" again.

OK, then.
LOL. We're back to you trolling again. But of course you never left. I referenced Sally Yates in that very comment. She was not the equivalent of a postman in Vladivostok. She was Deputy AG / acting AG. One of the highest ranking people in the U.S. government. But she certainly wasn't speaking for the government when she decided not to enforce Travel Ban 1.0. She was acting against the government.

Or -- to pick an exact analogy of a confidential source -- Mark Felt was a very high ranking official in DC (second in command at the FBI), but it would be loony to say that Woodward and Bernstein's source was the American government.
   1191. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5588604)
It doesn't matter
It very much does matter. One can't collude with an entity by getting information from someone working against that entity.

(And that's even if obtaining information from someone were sufficient to constitute collusion, which it isn't.)
   1192. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5588605)
Vanity Fair, again:

How good were these sources? Consider what Steele would write in the memos he filed with Simpson: Source A—to use the careful nomenclature of his dossier—was “a senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure.” Source B was “a former top level intelligence officer still active in the Kremlin.”


Postman in Vladivostok, indeed.

Please do pull the other one.
   1193. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:49 AM (#5588606)
someone working against that entity


You're inventing things again.
   1194. Greg K Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:50 AM (#5588607)

This is not to say that there won’t be any blowback from Trump’s announcement. There might well be. But I suspect that most Arab states in the Middle East care a lot less about the Palestinian cause than they claim, and are willing to keep the inevitable protests under tight control. They mostly understand three fundamental facts:

That's always been my understanding. Most of the Sunni-state governments only make noises about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the extent that domestic popular pressure forces them to.

One of the ingredients of the Arab Spring in 2011 was the 2010 diplomatic leaks that showed how little governments actually cared about the issue.
   1195. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5588608)
(And now he'll try to claim that some of Steele's sources worked for the Russian government. Which is true, but misleading; that doesn't mean that they were acting on behalf of the Russian government. Ed Snowden worked for the U.S. government under Obama. Sally Yates worked for the Trump administration. Doesn't mean that if they acted as confidential sources they were acting on behalf of the U.S. government.)
I haven't followed all of Sugar Baby's posts, David, but your assessment here seems naive. It is hardly unreasonable to believe that, assuming Steele is on the level, the FSB nonetheless manipulated his sources. And even if Russian intel didn't work this, paying one's sources for info isn't exactly the way to collect the most reliable intel.
   1196. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:53 AM (#5588609)
   1197. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:55 AM (#5588610)
Or -- to pick an exact analogy of a confidential source -- Mark Felt was a very high ranking official in DC (second in command at the FBI), but it would be loony to say that Woodward and Bernstein's source was the American government.


You're moving the goalposts again.(*) No one's ever said Steele's sources "were the Russian government." The nutty Kremlin lawyer "wasn't the Russian government," either. And she's further removed from the government, since she also worked for Fusion.

(*) And that's a charitable term to use. What you're really doing is inventing things.
   1198. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:56 AM (#5588611)
Steele. But -- and coke to MM for making the point originally, and to reiterate what I said in 1183 -- there's no evidence those people were speaking for the government. And (if they were) even less evidence than that that Steele, Fusion, and especially Hillary knew they were.


Can someone sane - not you Stretchy Band Ninja - explain to me the "logic" behind trying to use Clinton as a shield for Trump's Russian adventures?

1) It won't influence the Mueller investigation at all
2) It doesn't impact any legal matters at all
3) Even if Clinton and her whole campaign are guilty it doesn't detract or add to the guilt or innocence of Trump or his campaign one iota.
4) No one cares about Clinton (except a few close family, friends, and loyalists I guess), so if Clinton had to be thrown under the bus to "get" Trump anyone who was out to get Trump would gladly do so.
5) Plus, as David and others have shown, it is extremely weak.

I guess it could be one of the following, but all are very unimpressive:

1) Convince the stupids. They already believe and will buy anything, but I guess they start by hating Clinton so maybe that distracts them a key extra bit.
2) Influence the politics. But the GOP is not going to impeach Trump absent a smoking gun (and maybe not then), this nonsense won't influence that at all.
3) Drive the conversation away from Trump towards Clinton, because "Win the news cycle!" or something.
4) Continue to muddy the water and just keep throwing stuff out there in hopes something, anything sticks.

So what am I missing (other than the Troll factor, I guess)? Why do we coming back to this? It is boring. I am ready to declare Clinton guilty of treason if it will get certain parties here to move onto to a less boring topic - because at this point, again, no one cares about Clinton any more*. She is no longer relevant.

* Other than as a person, of course, who has done nothing really wrong and should at this point be left alone and not harangued, but it is not like anyone here can influence her life in any meaningful fashion anyway.
   1199. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5588612)
But she certainly wasn't speaking for the government when she decided not to enforce Travel Ban 1.0.


Yeah, she actually was. The government isn't just one person's voice. She was exercising governmental authority at all times in that episode and had the power to bind the government. So did others.
   1200. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:59 AM (#5588613)
.pilF
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