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Monday, December 11, 2017

OTP 11 December, 2017 - GOP strategist: Moore would have ‘date with a baseball bat’ if he tried dating teens where I grew up

“I grew up in Mississippi. Every father I knew, if he saw a guy like Roy Moore in his 30s trying to date his 16-year-old daughter, he would have had a date with a baseball bat,” Stevens, a former aide to Mitt Romney’s campaign, said on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360.”

Stevens, who worked on former Alabama Gov. Bob Riley’s (R) primary campaign against Moore in 2006, said Moore has violated the “decency standard” of civil society in his previous alleged pursuit of teenage girls.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 08:53 AM | 2653 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bats, bats are afraid, politics

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   101. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5590116)
Keep wondering why you lose elections to people like Trump and Moore.


When you intentionally build your base on Creationists you're self-selecting for the most intransigently ignorant members of society, the ones who can proudly declare that they don't even need to consider the mountains of scientific evidence accumulated over centuries in support of the grandest and most important scientific theory in human history - they just know in their gut that it's wrong. Once you start with that sort of arrogant stupidity, convincing them that there's a massive global conspiracy to place an African communist in the White House to further George Soros's agenda is a snap.

Religious zealots have always been the vanguard unit of The Stupids. Hate science, hate America.

   102. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5590117)
Keep wondering why you lose elections to people like Trump and Moore. Eventually you might understand something about the subject other than OUTRAEG.


Keep losing? Trump won once, with nearly 3 million more people voting for his opponent. Moore hasn't won anything yet.
   103. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5590118)
Ray, #77:
The party I was at last week was quite good, actually. Best California and avocado rolls I've ever had. Free wine and desserts and other food.


I'll be sure to file that cuisine approval alongside your recommendations on film, television, comedy and who it's thrilling to take a selfie with.
   104. Traderdave Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5590119)


When you intentionally build your base on Creationists you're self-selecting for the most intransigently ignorant members of society, the ones who can proudly declare that they don't even need to consider the mountains of scientific evidence accumulated over centuries in support of the grandest and most important scientific theory in human history - they just know in their gut that it's wrong. Once you start with that sort of arrogant stupidity, convincing them that there's a massive global conspiracy to place an African communist in the White House to further George Soros's agenda is a snap.

Religious zealots have always been the vanguard unit of The Stupids. Hate science, hate America.


Well said.
   105. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5590120)
Keep losing? Trump won once, with nearly 3 million more people voting for his opponent.


I love when this chestnut gets trotted out as a rebuttal to "Trump won."

Moore hasn't won anything yet.


You're worried that he might win. And in analyzing why he has a good chance of winning you can come up with nothing other than Outrage that people would vote for him.

That's a child's view of the world. It betrays a simple incapability of actually applying logic to the question.
   106. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5590121)
you can come up with nothing other than Outrage that people would vote for him.


No, dummy. Moore will probably win because it's Alabama, like Srul said. More apt is what happened in Virginia.
   107. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5590122)
Oh Morty. I’m going to hang around long enough to piss on yours and a few other graves.

Sorry I won't be able to personally witness that. I've heard it is now permissible, if not de rigueur, for you and yours to piss standing up.
   108. Traderdave Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5590123)
Best California and avocado rolls I've ever had.


The TV dinners of Americanized sushi.
   109. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5590125)
No, dummy. Moore will probably win because it's Alabama, like Srul said.


That must explain Trump too, then.

It makes me laugh to think of the posters on this board, and how their teenage children can very likely explain election results better than they can.
   110. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5590127)
The TV dinners of Americanized sushi.


I was going to say the McDonalds and KFC of sushi. How typically Trump.
   111. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5590128)
Trump was elected because Republicans and people like you who enable them have no moral center, Ray.
   112. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5590130)
Again, no, dummy. Trump won because many Obama voters stayed home.
   113. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5590131)
People will vote for Roy Moore because they are religious fanatics. They’re American Taliban. And you support them Ray. You’d support them if they were strapping bombs on and blowing up coffee shops.
   114. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5590132)
I was going to say the McDonalds and KFC of sushi. How typically Trump.


Oh, they had actual sushi there. I don't touch the stuff if I can help it. Maybe a salmon roll here or there.
   115. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5590133)
Ah yes MCD and YUM, 2 of the safest investments in today's market. God bless America.
   116. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5590134)
How many times have you been to Alabama Ray?

Don't know about Ray, but I've seen My Cousin Vinny multiple times.

Was in Montgomery for the final day of the Selma march, and almost got arrested in Tuscaloosa 10 years later on an attempted frameup job by a bank clerk who tried to shortchange us when we were exchanging small bills for big bills---and no, it wasn't part of a drug deal. I capped off my visit there by taking home over a thousand bucks after stepping on a rusty nail at a motel.

Hey, you take the good with the bad.

Of course I love Alabama while hating its political leaders. That's not a contradiction, and if every adult in Alabama would suddenly decide to vote, I might change my opinion about their political leaders. And other than maybe in parts of rural North Carolina, there's no more melodious regional accent.
   117. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5590136)
You know who else won't eat sushi? Children.
   118. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5590138)
That's a child's view of the world. It betrays a simple incapability of actually applying logic to the question.


Yes, yes... the "logic".

The logic of Trumpkins, Mooreons, and the choady toadies who enable them.

Pass.
   119. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5590139)
Hate science, hate America.


'Murica has always been anti-intellectual and anti-education. Hell, why y'all need to be wastin' yer time at one o' them fancy colleges when the fields need a-tillin' and the coal needs a-minin'? Git yer nose outta that book, boy, an' do some real work.

Now, c'mere so's I can beat yer ass and send ya to bed.
   120. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5590140)
Trump was elected because Republicans and people like you who enable them have no moral center, Ray.

Again, no, dummy. Trump won because many Obama voters stayed home.

Another pair of true statements that don't contradict one another.
   121. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5590142)
I think we should all listen to the political analysis of the guy who proudly doesn't pay attention, doesn't vote, and doesn't think any of this matters (unless all taxes are eliminated or some such).

Who else would be an expert about Ray Moore and his election than the guy who had no idea who that even was until recently told here in this thread.

You cannot make this stuff up, not would you want to.
   122. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5590144)
I'm optimistic about Jones winning because I'm delusional, I think. If this were a regular Election Day election, Moore cruises to victory but this is a special election and you have to be motivated to vote. I think the dem side here is way more motivated.

I'm probably wrong though.
   123. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5590145)
What we've been witnessing and are witnessing now and still, what should be the wakeup call to so-called progressives, is: The Revenge of the Stupids. You swank it over those you snickeringly deride long enough and some will take umbrage and those who take umbrage will seek ways to get back at you. Chickens do come home to roost. The social engineering New Left/antifa type's has. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Heed, the mean white man ain't submitting to obsolescence docilely or quietly.
   124. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5590146)
I'd put stupidity before lacking a moral center --

I mean, sure - Trump got the votes of the Clappers of the world - but I suspect the proportion of rubes that Trump has long made his living by scamming outweighs the morally bereft Clappers of the world.
   125. dlf Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5590147)
Moore hasn't won anything yet.


The molestation issues hadn't come out then, but the Alabama Republican party failed yugely when it nominated Moore a few months back. They had a choice to nominate Mo Brooks, a Republican Congressman who has a history of being pretty far on the right of the party and is a DJT supporter. They could have nominated Luther Strange, the incumbent who was actively endorsed by DJT and has a long history before being in the national spotlight of traditional GOP policy positions. Heck, they even had two state senate / congressmen running in the primary who also had solid R credentials plus a handful of folks with no prior political experience.

But instead, they nominated a person who twice was removed from office because he acted upon his belief that the U.S. Constitution is not the law of the land ... they nominated someone who issued rulings in cases that were based on religious scripture ... they nominated someone who has publicly stated that consensual homosexual behavior should be illegal ... they nominated someone pandering to racists with his birther nonsense ... they nominated someone who co-authored a book including chapters stating that women are not qualified to hold elected office ... I could go on and on.

Roy Moore won the R nomination in what is ordinarily a one-party state. It is only because of the molestation issues that this is even close, but no sane believer in our constitutional form of government and the attendant separation of church and state could possibly support Roy Moore. And yet, he won.

Alabama, despite the contempt that some posters here have for it, is a wonderful state. From the NASA space center in Huntsville producing cutting edge scientific research to the most beautiful beaches in the continental U.S. in the area around Ft. Morgan it is a wonderful place. The best BBQ in the country comes from a little cinder block building outside of a lumberyard in Northport. Both of my daughters were born there and my wife grew up in the state. But slightly more than 262,000 people who voted for Roy Moore in the runoff have given the place an enormous black eye.
   126. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5590148)
Morty might enjoy this if he hasn't already read it:

H. L. Mencken, The Worst American State, from The American Mercury, September - November, 1931:

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Spoiler Alert: After using dozens of metrics to come with an answer, the winner was (inevitably) Mississippi. Its summary and conclusion:

Starting with the broad category of wealth, the two** compiled data on everything from tangible and taxable property per capita, bank resources, per capita savings, taxes and disposable income to gasoline consumption, telephone use and life insurance.

After combining the rankings, Connecticut topped the list of wealthiest states, followed by California and New York. Maryland was 19th out of the 48 states (and the District of Columbia), and Mississippi was the poorest state.

Mencken and Angoff turned next to education and culture, looking at illiteracy, school populations, teacher salaries, libraries, magazine and newspaper subscriptions, passport applications and the number of natives appearing in "Who's Who in America."

This time Massachusetts was deemed most educated and cultural, with the District of Columbia and California close behind. Maryland came in 25th, and Mississippi again brought up the rear.

Finally, Mencken and Angoff looked at three more broad categories: public health, public order and general habitability.

They included death rates, infant mortality, the supply of physicians and hospitals and other data in the health category. Public order comprised the number of lynchings, homicides and suicides, the racial and religious composition of a state, robberies, prison sentences and the number of stills seized by the federal government. Under general habitability were climate, population, roads and railways.

The winner was Massachusetts, which, "save for its fisheries, has little natural wealth, but it has been settled for more than three centuries," Mencken and Angoff wrote. "It early accumulated a great deal of capital in trade, and it has led the Union in most cultural matters . . ."

Mississippi, at the other extreme, "has few natural resources, and suffers from a bad climate and a backward population," they wrote. "It has no efficient police, as its lynching record shows, and its government is in the hands of office-seekers of low character.

"It is also deficient in decent hospitals, colleges, newspapers and libraries . . . Altogether, it seems to be without a serious rival to the lamentable pre-eminence of the Worst American State."

** Mencken and Charles Angoff
   127. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5590150)
I'm optimistic about Jones winning because I'm delusional, I think.

I'm glad to see my newsletter subscription has not run out.
   128. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5590152)

Rose McGowan slams Alyssa Milano for supporting Georgina Chapman

Alyssa Milano was slammed by her former “Charmed” co-star Rose McGowan for supporting disgraced producer Harvey Weinstein’s estranged wife.

Milano appeared on “Megyn Kelly Today” on Thursday and was asked about Georgina Chapman, Weinstein’s fashion designer wife. Chapman in October said that she was leaving Weinstein after 10 years of marriage following numerous sexual misconduct allegations made against him. Milano and Chapman worked together on “Project Runway: All Stars.”

Milano told Kelly that Georgina was doing well following the allegations.

“Georgina is doing very well … she’s an amazing woman, and I think her priority right now is focusing on how to raise those two children to the best of her capacity given the situation,” Milano said. “She goes through very dark times. She’s very sad. This is not easy for her, but I have no doubt that not only will she come out on the other side of this, but she deserves to. She’s a good woman.”

McGowan tweeted in response to Milano’s update of Chapman: “You make me want to vomit. You actually gave me a body flashback. Well done, fake one.”

McGowan followed up with another tweet suggesting Milano and Chapman could “call up Camille Cosby.” Bill Cosby’s wife, Camille, has stood by the comedian following numerous sexual assault allegations against him.

McGowan has questioned how much Chapman knew of Weinstein’s alleged misconduct and reports of the disgraced producer bullying stars into wearing his wife’s clothing.
   129. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5590153)
What we've been witnessing and are witnessing now and still, what should be the wakeup call to so-called progressives, is: The Revenge of the Stupids. You swank it over those you snickeringly deride long enough and some will take umbrage and those who take umbrage will seek ways to get back at you. Chickens do come home to roost. The social engineering New Left/antifa type's has. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Heed, the mean white man ain't submitting to obsolescence docilely or quietly.


How old are you?
   130. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5590154)
126:

Highly recommended. Anything by Mencken is recommended. You don't have to agree with him--in fact, you can vehemently disagree with him--to enjoy and be thrilled by his rhetoric.

Oh, and despite his loathing of the South, and his diatribes against women, he married a Southern belle and was very devoted to her.
   131. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5590156)
Andy, 112 was responding to Ray, not Sam.
   132. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5590157)
How old are you?

Are you asking me for a date?
   133. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5590158)
Andy, 112 was responding to Ray, not Sam.

Got it, but I was just making the generic point that no single explanation covers the reason Trump won.
   134. Count Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5590159)
What we've been witnessing and are witnessing now and still, what should be the wakeup call to so-called progressives, is: The Revenge of the Stupids. You swank it over those you snickeringly deride long enough and some will take umbrage and those who take umbrage will seek ways to get back at you. Chickens do come home to roost. The social engineering New Left/antifa type's has. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Heed, the mean white man ain't submitting to obsolescence docilely or quietly.


Jesus, now I'm worried the "New Left/antifa types" will migrate and become an SBB trope. Morty, you have no idea what you're talking about. You should try being more specific about what groups or issues you're worried about and see if they are still so troubling once they're exposed to any scrutiny. For example, you might find that antifa are pretty small groups and in no danger of keeping the white man down.
   135. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5590161)
Still waiting from the usual suspects as to whether MLK, Jr.'s legacy should be reassessed in light of current standards?
   136. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5590162)
What we've been witnessing and are witnessing now and still what should be the wakeup call to so-called progressives, which is: The Revenge of the Stupids. You pretend you swank it over those you snickeringly deride long enough and people will take umbrage and those who take umbrage will seek ways to get back at you. Chickens do come home to roost. The social engineering New Left/antifa type's has. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Head, the mean white man ain't submitting to obsolescence docilely or quietly.


That's a really, really, really stupid way to run a culture.

People suffering from such low self-esteem and crushing chips on their shoulders don't need ####### voting blocks, they need a good therapist. I hear Stuart Smalley will soon be available.

And that's without even getting into the fact that the whole premise is complete and utter bullshit to begin with --

I mean, hey - I'm new to this politics thing.... but remind me again, who is it that BOTH parties always paint and the good and holy salt-of-the-earth folks? And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't "San Francisco values" and "New York values" commonly used in national campaigns meant to be non-complimentary? And when you look up and down the TV dial or even at the movies - how often is it that the small-town white boy is the ultimate villain while the snooty big city elite is the hero?

Give me a break. This is all bullshit cooked up by people worried that somewhere in Park Slope, there just might be a black drag queen, multi-pierced lesbian, and PhD in gender studies who just got off his bartending job enjoying a coffee house poetry slam where one of the stanzas may be less than complimentary to tractor pulls. And, of course - how dare they! It's coffee house poetry slams that should, alone, be mocked!

I've split my life, virtually in half between those awful, snobby urban elites and those hard-working, high moral fiber small town salt of the earthers.... and the only difference that stands out to me is that the latter waste a lot more of their life whining about the former.
   137. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5590164)
126:

Highly recommended. Anything by Mencken is recommended. You don't have to agree with him--in fact, you can vehemently disagree with him--to enjoy and be thrilled by his rhetoric.


Totally agree, though besides some of his political views there's one more major downside that Mencken was never personally aware of: After his death, his style was mimicked by God knows how many right wing writers, most noticeably R. Emmett Tyrrell of The American Spectator and more than one of his hired writers. After a while, these third rate imitations of Mencken became about as cringeworthy as SBB's "an exercise best left to the reader."
   138. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5590165)
Morty... You should try being more specific

- spit-take -
   139. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5590166)
Are you asking me for a date?


I'm hoping you're at least 65. You don't have a grasp on reality and it's especially tenuous whenever you try and blame millenial libs for Trump.
   140. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5590167)
Jesus, now I'm worried the "New Left/antifa types" will migrate and become an SBB trope. Morty, you have no idea what you're talking about. You should try being more specific about what groups or issues you're worried about and see if they are still so troubling once they're exposed to any scrutiny. For example, you might find that antifa are pretty small groups and in no danger of keeping the white man down.

Whether this is true is irrelevant. It explains why many white people, in increasing numbers, feel as they do. They feel they've been wrongly blamed and grossly insulted for decades, if not eons, and they ain't taking the #### anymore. And what aids them is that the social engineering Left has lost all moral momentum due to hypocrisy and failure to adhere to greater democratic political precepts.
   141. dlf Posted: December 11, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5590168)
Still waiting from the usual suspects as to whether MLK, Jr.'s legacy should be reassessed in light of current standards?


Genuinely curious: were King's transgressions ones of non-consensual behavior and/or child molestation or mere adultery by and between consenting adults?

   142. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:00 PM (#5590170)
Still waiting from the usual suspects as to whether MLK, Jr.'s legacy should be reassessed in light of current standards?


Go for it. Historical figures are a part of their own time and should be seen as such, but history is living and historical figures are human not divine.
   143. Greg K Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:01 PM (#5590171)
I've split my life, virtually in half between those awful, snobby urban elites and those hard-working, high moral fiber small town salt of the earthers.... and the only difference that stands out to me is that the latter waste a lot more of their whining about the former.


As always, Stewart Lee has you covered.
   144. Count Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:03 PM (#5590172)
Morty's cranky racist bit is a cousin to the arguments that Trump or Moore is the liberals' fault for being annoying (incredibly someone in this thread blamed progressives for their snobiness and for putting up Ralph Nader as if Nader got considerable support from the liberal wing of the country). If you don't like Roy Moore or Donald Trump, why don't you blame their voters instead of blaming liberals?
   145. BDC Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5590173)
I'm back from France, where I had a nice 3 or 4 days hearing almost nothing about Roy Moore or Donald Trump (till the Jerusalem announcement). The big news in France was the deaths, within a few hours of each other, of Jean d'Ormesson and Johnny Hallyday. Being a foreigner and extremely ignorant, I had never heard of either of them, but one was the doyen of the Academie Française and the other was the nation's greatest rock star. I don't think there's an American analogue. Maybe it would be like being in Canada when Margaret Atwood and Neil Young died on the same day. Which I hope they don't, or anyway at least not soon.
   146. Count Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5590174)
Whether this is true is irrelevant. It explains why many white people, in increasing numbers, feel as they do. They feel they've been wrongly blamed and grossly insulted for decades, if not eons, and they ain't taking the #### anymore. And what aids them is that the social engineering Left has lost all moral momentum due to hypocrisy and failure to adhere to greater democratic political precepts.


If it's false, then who are you upset with? Whose responsibility is it if a bunch of people believe that "antifa" is engaging in social engineering? (Again, you seem to have no idea what you're talking about here). Whose fault is it if a bunch of people believe that Obama is a Kenyan muslim and George Soros is out to get them?

Based on your past posts I think by social engineering you mean affirmative action, which whatever you think of it has not had a devastating effect on white people in this country. If you mean something else, please explain.
   147. OCF Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5590175)
I have a connection to high school math competitions - especially a competition that features largish teams that often represent whole states. There is an Alabama team, and it has sporadically been competitive. The Alabama team ranked 15th nationally in 2006 and 11th in 2007. Of course, such teams never represent the mass demographics of their regions particularly well. In all 50 states, Asian-Americans (particularly Chinese, but also Korean and Indian) are wildly over-represented. I remember meeting the 2007 Alabama team; their leading individual had a Russian name. To a large extent, the Alabama teams have come from Vestavia Hills (a suburb of Birmingham) and Huntsville (the children of rocket scientists).

As I said, that isn't anywhere close to being representative of the state.
   148. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5590176)
Whether this is true is irrelevant. It explains why many white people, in increasing numbers, feel as they do. They feel they've been wrongly blamed and grossly insulted for decades, if not eons, and they ain't taking the #### anymore. And what aids them is that the social engineering Left has lost all moral momentum due to hypocrisy and failure to adhere to greater democratic political precepts.


God, this is so ####### ridiculous it hurts.

'Wrongly blamed and grossly insulted for decades, if not eons'?

Spare me...

They ought to try spending a week in the shoes of an urban black male trying to make a go of it.... or a lesbian teacher worried about keeping her job, much less settling down with a partner and perhaps starting a family... or a migrant from south of the border.

How ####### ridiculous.

Wrongly blamed and grossly insulted? It's STILL hardly settled opinion that a homosexual can be trusted to teach a class or lead a Cub scout troop. Welfare reform is STILL sold as kicking those lazy blacks off the teet. And Jose picking tomatoes? He's behind the greatest crime wave in human history.

   149. Count Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5590177)
My assumption / hope is that Neil Young is immortal.
   150. BDC Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5590178)
And let me also express support for Mouse and his efforts at finding us stories to link. I did that for a few months last winter and Mouse is right, it is pretty slim pickings at times. You can go to other sports, as I often did, or you can find something both topical and tangential, like hitting Roy Moore with a baseball bat (as a thought experiment). Thumbs up.
   151. Srul Itza Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5590179)
But instead, they nominated a person who twice was removed from office because he acted upon his belief that the U.S. Constitution is not the law of the land ... they nominated someone who issued rulings in cases that were based on religious scripture ... they nominated someone who has publicly stated that consensual homosexual behavior should be illegal ... they nominated someone pandering to racists with his birther nonsense ... they nominated someone who co-authored a book including chapters stating that women are not qualified to hold elected office ... I could go on and on.

Roy Moore won the R nomination in what is ordinarily a one-party state. It is only because of the molestation issues that this is even close, but no sane believer in our constitutional form of government and the attendant separation of church and state could possibly support Roy Moore. And yet, he won.

Alabama, despite the contempt that some posters here have for it, is a wonderful state. [SNIP] But slightly more than 262,000 people who voted for Roy Moore in the runoff have given the place an enormous black eye.


There are roughly 4.9 million people in Alabama. Of course, they are not 100% cut from the same cloth.

But lest we forget, Roy Moore did not spring fully grown from the skull of Zeus. This is also the State that twice elected Moore to the Alabama Supreme Court, after it was quite clear who, and what, he was.

And they will line up to vote for him again.
   152. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5590180)
They feel they've been wrongly blamed and grossly insulted for decades, if not eons, and they ain't taking the #### anymore. And what aids them is that the social engineering Left has lost all moral momentum due to hypocrisy and failure to adhere to greater democratic political precepts.


Actually most of them are just NEETs posting memes on /Pol and are mad that Jose is dating Jane and he has his own place.
   153. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:11 PM (#5590181)
Go for it. Historical figures are a part of their own time and should be seen as such,


Like Roy Moore circa 1977?

I don't think that holds.
   154. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5590185)
[153] Molesting a 14 year old was a crime in 1977.
   155. BDC Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5590186)
whether MLK, Jr.'s legacy should be reassessed

MLK Jr.'s personal aura of sainthood has been sternly reassessed, but I don't see what that has to do with his legacy. Getting to eat at the same places and sit in the same part of theaters and vote and serve on juries and the like isn't somehow tarnished by the fact that one guy involved in getting you there was a philanderer.

When James Levine was fired by the Metropolitan Opera last week, somebody on Facebook asked if they had to throw away his recordings. WTH? They're recordings of music. What do we know about the personal dark side of everybody performing on every recording we own, the authors of every book on our shelf, the painters of the art on our walls? Unless Levine was conducting some sort of NAMBLA-themed opera, it can't matter less. It can matter whether the Met keeps employing him, but that's a much different issue.
   156. PreservedFish Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:19 PM (#5590188)
I spent my honeymoon driving in France for 3 weeks. We spent most of our time in the car listening to a delightful national oldies station that played both French and English songs. Hallyday was a fixture.

"Souvenirs Souvenirs"
   157. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5590189)
Go for it. Historical figures are a part of their own time and should be seen as such,


Like Roy Moore circa 1977?

I don't think that holds.


The difference, here, I think, is that Roy Moore did it once...no, wait, twice...no...OK, a bunch of times...and many think would likely do it again if given the opportunity.

Dr. King is dead at the present time and very likely to remain so. As such, his achievements as well as his transgressions are locked-in, in perpetuity. Whatever "wrongs" he may have committed, he is not able to do again.
   158. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:24 PM (#5590190)
Like Roy Moore circa 1977?

I don't think that holds.


As JCI said, I am pretty sure what Roy Moore did was either illegal or creepy in 1977. Plus your (dumb) analogy fails in two ways.

1) MLK jr was quite a bit further back than Roy Moore
2) But anyway yes I think the voters will evaluate Roy Moore in light of history, and yes mores have changed some since 1977. If voters choose to elect Moore I am the one maybe most OK with it. I think the vote3rs get to decide however they wnat, and if they think 1977 was different enough they want to give him a pass, I disagree, but accept it.

Note: It sounds like you don't think historical figures should be seen as a product of their times. Please, tell me more.
   159. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5590197)
Note: It sounds like you don't think historical figures should be seen as a product of their times. Please, tell me more.


This is an interesting argument for you to make in light of the sexual assault revolution we're having right now.

Matt Lauer. Just a product of his times when sexual assaulters and harassers weren't outed as such!!
   160. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5590199)
MLK Jr.'s personal aura of sainthood has been sternly reassessed, but I don't see what that has to do with his legacy. Getting to eat at the same places and sit in the same part of theaters and vote and serve on juries and the like isn't somehow tarnished by the fact that one guy involved in getting you there was a philanderer.

Tina Brown was on NPR this morning. She knew and worked with Harvey Weinstein--of course, disclaiming any knowledge of his repulsive behavior--and made the point how both that personal behavior and his promoting of quality movies could co-exist in the same person.

Maybe, the work is separate, and should stay separate, but, nevertheless, it is important to many people what our cultural leaders do in their private life, whether that is Roman Polanski, Bob Dylan, Weinstein, or Bill Clinton. It's not possible for someone to be two people. Whatever he does that is what he is, even if his behavior seems contradictory. So, what then? To begin with, as a threshold matter, you should a) get it factually right and b) hold everyone in the class (or across classes even) to the same standards of judgment. For that you need fearless disclosure, forthright and thorough discussion, and an air of the unperturbably dispassionate. If you don't have the last, you're just part of the insane clown posse.
   161. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5590200)
This is an interesting argument for you to make in light of the sexual assault revolution we're having right now.


No, really, I am asking what is your opinion on how historical figures should be thought of. Please elaborate.

Note: You seem to think sexual harassment and child molestation were OK in the recent past. That is ... not my opinion.
   162. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5590202)
As such, his achievements as well as his transgressions are locked-in, in perpetuity. Whatever "wrongs" he may have committed, he is not able to do again.

It sounds like you don't think historical figures should be seen as a product of their times. Please, tell me more.

Hard to believe it was just a few short months ago that the left's manufactured outrage du jour was directed at statues of Confederate leaders.
   163. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5590203)

Note: You seem to think sexual harassment and child molestation were OK in the recent past. That is ... not my opinion.


It's not mine (see posts 153 and 159) but it seems to be yours. See your post 158 in which you say: "Note: It sounds like you don't think historical figures should be seen as a product of their times. Please, tell me more."
   164. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5590204)
As JCI said, I am pretty sure what Roy Moore did was either illegal or creepy in 1977. Plus your (dumb) analogy fails in two ways.

1) MLK jr was quite a bit further back than Roy Moore
2) But anyway yes I think the voters will evaluate Roy Moore in light of history, and yes mores have changed some since 1977. If voters choose to elect Moore I am the one maybe most OK with it. I think the vote3rs get to decide however they wnat, and if they think 1977 was different enough they want to give him a pass, I disagree, but accept it.


Well, three ways -- I mean, let's not forget that MLK wasn't elected to anything nor was there ever a snowball's chance in hell he would have been had he run for anything.
   165. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5590205)
They ought to try spending a week in the shoes of an urban black male trying to make a go of it.... or a lesbian teacher worried about keeping her job, much less settling down with a partner and perhaps starting a family... or a migrant from south of the border.

Because, yeah, you know, our tribe isn't just our tribe. We're a superior separate species from those hopeless trogs in Alabama (or Ferguson, or Kenya, or Nova Scotia).
   166. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5590206)
Just catching up with things...
I would refuse to vote for Moore on the grounds that he's a child molester. But what the elites of society can't understand while sipping their cocktails at their fancy parties in their fancy buildings is that voting for candidates is an adult decision. As such it typically boils down to more than one factor. Children can't handle more than one issue at a time, and therefore they would almost have to be single-issue voters. But adults are able to function at a higher capacity than that. Adults -- serious ones -- can and do vote having many factors in mind, ranging from ideology to self interest to others. For adults who are struggling -- rather than sipping cocktails at their high society dinners -- and see liberal policies as harmful, either to society or to their own self interest, they can and will vote on multiple issues. They don't like that Moore is a child molester, but voting for candidates is a wider inquiry than that.
This is flat appalling. So being a child molester is just a “single issue” among many that “real adults” should take into consideration? What if Moore had pulled a Dylan Roof – would that just be a “single Issue” among many that “real adults” should take into consideration?
Only a matter of time before a candidate on the level of Trump/Moore appears as a D…. See Conyers and Franken.
That’s cute, but all of the available evidence shows that when a D commits sexual harassment, they are pressured by their party to resign quickly while when a R commits sexual assault or child molestation, you and the rest of the Trumpkins make continued excuses and they stay around.
Keep wondering why you lose elections to people like Trump and Moore. Eventually you might understand something about the subject other than OUTRAEG.
So…the Ds should embrace candidates like Trump and Moore? Or they should embrace voters who support candidates like Trump and Moore? No thanks; I won’t literally sell my soul just to win an election.
   167. Stormy JE Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5590208)
Once more: presidents-elect have no rights at all relating to the presidency or foreign policy. There are certain courtesies customarily extended to them, but as a matter of grace, not right.
And this principle has been violated more often than not by Presidents-elect on both sides of the aisle (most notably in recent years by Reagan, Obama, and of course Trump).

And what receives precious little attention, probably because this White House comms office is so inept, is that Obama did *way* more to violate custom for an outgoing POTUS, undertaking major policy decisions clearly at odds with the views of his successor.
   168. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5590209)
And before Ray goes completely off the rails and tries to misrepresent my opinion, here is what I said when Morty asked if MLK's "legacy should be reassessed in light of current standards".

Go for it. Historical figures are a part of their own time and should be seen as such, but history is living and historical figures are human not divine.


Weirdly now Ray wants to turn this from assessment (and reassessment) of legacy into assessing whether or not an anchor should have been fired for recent transgressions and/or talking about a current politician and their worthiness to be elected based on past deeds. In neither case are we talking about assessing a legacy, but instead are talking about fitness for current jobs.

Abe Lincoln - perhaps our greatest president - had opinions on a variety of subjects that render him unfit for office in 2020 (should he rise from the grave, a living man). However, that is a different assessment than talking about his legacy in light of current standards. A nuance I feel certain is lost on Ray.
   169. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5590210)
Matt Lauer. Just a product of his times when sexual assaulters and harassers weren't outed as such!!
Wasn't Matt Lauer fired within 24 hours of his superiors finding out about his actions? And like MLK, not a single D has voted for Lauer for a single public office ever.
   170. Traderdave Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5590211)
Well, three ways -- I mean, let's not forget that MLK wasn't elected to anything nor was there ever a snowball's chance in hell he would have been had he run for anything.


I think it's fair to say he could have won a local election in Alabama if the given county/city had enough black voters. Had he lived longer (he was only 39 when he was killed) he could have likely won a statewide office in the 80's.
   171. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5590213)
Because, yeah, you know, our tribe isn't just our tribe. We're a superior separate species from those hopeless trogs in Alabama (or Ferguson, or Kenya, or Nova Scotia).


If the truth hurts and that bothers you - then stopping looking for truths.
   172. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5590214)
Hard to believe it was just a few short months ago that the left's manufactured outrage du jour was directed at statues of Confederate leaders.


?????

I am not reassessing Confederate generals or opining on their fitness for present day office. I just don't want public monuments to treason against the US on public property payed for by the public dollar.

And ... uh ... manufactured outrage? That is what you are going with? That is weak dude. When your arguments are worse than Ray's it is time to reassess in light of current thread standards.
   173. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5590215)
Because, yeah, you know, our tribe isn't just our tribe. We're a superior separate species from those hopeless trogs in Alabama (or Ferguson, or Kenya, or Nova Scotia).


You're just rambling. Poor whites voting for Trump isn't surprising and has little to do with Antifa or "the New Left" or whatever other bogeyman you've conjured. Poor whites don't have any class consciousness but they sure have a racial one and "MAGA" was a brilliant dog whistle.

One of the most striking things from the 2016 election is how many working and poor white women went for Trump. It seems white women don't mind Trump's behavior that much, or if they do, they like the idea of MAGA more.
   174. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:44 PM (#5590216)
It's not mine (see posts 153 and 159) but it seems to be yours. See your post 158 in which you say: "Note: It sounds like you don't think historical figures should be seen as a product of their times. Please, tell me more."


You appear to be suffering under some sort of delusion. I have no idea where the gotcha you are reaching for is, what your opinion on the matter is (though I have asked you twice before this), or what you think my opinion is. Honestly you are not making much sense.

Start over. Read what I wrote and try to frame your argument in less "single line gotcha! mode" and more - this is what Ray thinks. Maybe then I will get what you are trying to say.
   175. BrianBrianson Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5590217)
One of the most striking things from the 2016 election is how many working and poor white women went for Trump. It seems white women don't mind Trump's behavior that much, or if they do, they like the idea of MAGA more.


Men and women don't form separate communities - we live in the same communities, on the same streets, in the same houses. This kind of "individuals are complete islands" mindset besets progressives so often, and it's nuts. Men and women mostly vote the same way, because they mostly live in the same communities, same households, and thus have mostly the same priorities.
   176. Stormy JE Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5590219)
Despite furor over Jerusalem move, Saudis seen on board with U.S. peace efforts:
BEIRUT/RIYADH/AMMAN (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia pulled no punches when it condemned President Donald Trump’s move to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. But Palestinian officials say Riyadh has also been working for weeks behind the scenes to press them to support a nascent U.S. peace plan.

Trump reversed decades of U.S. policy on Wednesday with his announcement and instructions to begin the process of moving the embassy in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, despite warnings that it would drive the wedge between Israel and the Palestinians deeper.

The Saudi royal court described the decision as “unjustified and irresponsible” and “a big step back in efforts to advance the peace process.”

But Arab officials privately say that Riyadh appears to be on board with a broader U.S. strategy for an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan still in its early phases of development. ...

Palestinian officials fear, and many Arab officials suspect, that by closing the door on East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state, Trump will align with Israel in offering the Palestinians limited self-government inside disconnected patches of the occupied West Bank, with no right of return for refugees displaced by the Arab-Israeli wars of 1948 and 1967.

The Palestinian officials said they were concerned that the proposal that Prince Mohammed communicated to Abbas, which purportedly came from Kushner, presents exactly that scenario.

As told to Abbas, the proposal included establishing “a Palestinian entity” in Gaza as well as the West Bank administrative areas A and B and 10 percent of area C, which contains Jewish settlements, a third Palestinian official said.

Jewish settlements in the West Bank would stay, there would be no right of return, and Israel would remain responsible for the borders, he said.

The proposal appears to differ little from existing arrangements in the West Bank, widening Palestinian control but falling far short of their minimum national demands.

“This is rejected by Palestinians. Abu Mazen (Abbas) explained the position and its danger to the Palestinian cause and Saudi Arabia understood that,” the official said.

The White House official denied that Kushner communicated those details to Prince Mohammed: “It does not accurately reflect any part of the conversation.”

Trump sought to temper the blow from his Jerusalem announcement with a phone call to Abbas on Tuesday, stressing that the Palestinians stood to gain from the plan being drawn up by Kushner and U.S. Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt.

“President Trump in a phone call told Abu Mazen: ‘I will have some proposals for you that you would like’. When Abu Mazen pressed him on details, Trump didn’t give any,” the first Palestinian official said.

A Saudi source said he believed an understanding on Israeli-Palestinian peace would nonetheless begin to emerge in the coming weeks.

“Do not underestimate the businessman in (Trump). He has always called it the ultimate deal,” the source said, declining to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject.

“I don’t think our government is going to accept that unless it has something sweetened in the pipeline which (King Salman and the crown prince) could sell to the Arab world – that the Palestinians would have their own state.”
Don't say I didn't give you fellas the heads-up about Saudi change, both at home and abroad. (However, kudos to Mouse for posting the Kevin Drum piece re: Saudi, Iran, and the Jerusalem announcement last week.)
   177. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5590220)
Monmouth’s final poll of Alabama shows ... a tie! At least with their standard turnout model. Their high turnout model shows Jones +3, while their low turnout model shows Moore +4.
   178. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5590221)
Fox News and Emerson are both well respected pollsters (yes, I realize that Fox News is basically the Trump Propaganda Network these days, but their polling is separate from that) who have been around a long time. Fox has Jones +10, while Emerson has Moore +9. That’s ridiculous and shows how nobody knows how to model the electorate. I think Zonk is way underestimating Jones right now- it’s a coin flip.

There are some races where polls just shouldn't be published because the turnout model is so unreliable. This is one of those races. There are just too many anomalies at play.
   179. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5590222)
Men and women don't form separate communities - we live in the same communities, on the same streets, in the same houses. This kind of "individuals are complete islands" mindset besets progressives so often, and it's nuts. Men and women mostly vote the same way, because they mostly live in the same communities, same households, and thus have mostly the same priorities.

Lots of truth to that. I wonder if there are any (reliable) polling data that show how much of the gender gap is due to single women, as opposed to married women who cancel the votes of their Republican husbands, or widows who voted as their husbands did and kept on doing it after their husbands died. I'd strongly suspect that the first group accounts for nearly all of the difference.
   180. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 11, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5590224)
Monmouth’s final poll of Alabama shows ... a tie! At least with their standard turnout model. Their high turnout model shows Jones +3, while their low turnout model shows Moore +4.

Sounds about right. Although I would have thought more of a skewed distribution with +5 Jones and +10 Moore.
   181. BDC Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5590225)
Is the common wisdom still that quite a few Republicans will vote for Moore on the theory that the Senate will expel him and they'll keep the (R) seat?
   182. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5590226)
Monmouth’s final poll of Alabama shows ... a tie! At least with their standard turnout model. Their high turnout model shows Jones +3, while their low turnout model shows Moore +4.

I'm not finding that poll. Could you provide a link?
   183. dlf Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5590227)
This is also the State that twice elected Moore to the Alabama Supreme Court, after it was quite clear who, and what, he was.

And they will line up to vote for him again.


I am *mildly* comforted by knowing that he is also a twice failed candidate for Governor when the state voiced its collective opinion that he was unqualified for that office.
   184. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5590229)
This kind of "individuals are complete islands" mindset besets progressives so often, and it's nuts. Men and women mostly vote the same way, because they mostly live in the same communities, same households, and thus have mostly the same priorities.


In general I agree but this is just shocking, from a Vox post election summary:

Trump beat Clinton among white women without college degrees by 27 points.


27 points! You'd think at least some working and poor white women would have broken with their race (and husbands) on Trump.
   185. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5590230)
There are roughly 4.9 million people in Alabama. Of course, they are not 100% cut from the same cloth.

But lest we forget, Roy Moore did not spring fully grown from the skull of Zeus. This is also the State that twice elected Moore to the Alabama Supreme Court, after it was quite clear who, and what, he was.
He also ran for governor twice, and flopped badly in the GOP primaries. So let's not go overboard.
   186. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5590231)
There are some races where polls just shouldn't be published because the turnout model is so unreliable. This is one of those races. There are just too many anomalies at play.


*Shrug*

People want polling.

Without the horserace stuff, how would scoreboard watchers like Ray stay involved... hey... wait... maybe you're right :-)

In any case, I highly suspect this is why there has been a paucity of well-respected polling operations dipping their toes into this one (I mean, Gravis? Come on...) The inherent instability and darts at a board modeling probably makes it a poor situation for a reputable firm to put its reputation on the line.
   187. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5590232)
Is the common wisdom still that quite a few Republicans will vote for Moore on the theory that the Senate will expel him and they'll keep the (R) seat?

I, for one, would be shocked if the GOP actually expelled Moore. But stranger things have happened.
   188. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5590233)
This is flat appalling.

[Niles leaves, slamming the door.]

Martin: [rising] How's a corned beef sandwich sound?
Frasier: I am appalled!
Martin: Well, no problem, there's some smoked turkey in here, too.


So being a child molester is just a “single issue” among many that “real adults” should take into consideration? What if Moore had pulled a Dylan Roof – would that just be a “single Issue” among many that “real adults” should take into consideration?


It would be, and often single issues ruin candidates.

Again: I'm just explaining to you how the world works. You can be "appalled" at that if you wish.

Only a matter of time before a candidate on the level of Trump/Moore appears as a D…. See Conyers and Franken.

That’s cute, but all of the available evidence shows that when a D commits sexual harassment, they are pressured by their party to resign quickly while when a R commits sexual assault or child molestation, you and the rest of the Trumpkins make continued excuses and they stay around.


Umm, there was a firestorm of people demanding Trump quit the race. Even from within his own party. Moore too, for that matter.

Keep wondering why you lose elections to people like Trump and Moore. Eventually you might understand something about the subject other than OUTRAEG.

So…the Ds should embrace candidates like Trump and Moore? Or they should embrace voters who support candidates like Trump and Moore? No thanks; I won’t literally sell my soul just to win an election.


The solution I thought was self evident was "Ds should have a platform that will easily defeat the Trumps and Moores of the world."

But keep RAEGing.
   189. BrianBrianson Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5590234)
27 points! You'd think at least some working and poor white women would have broken with their race (and husbands) on Trump.


Some did - Trump beat Clinton by 37 points among white people without college degrees overall. Now, probably can't assume no college degreers are 50-50 men/women, but that indicates a non-trivial break.
   190. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5590238)
The solution I thought was self evident was "Ds should have a platform that will easily defeat the Trumps and Moores of the world."


Please describe what this platform would be.
   191. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5590239)
[182] Here
   192. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5590240)
Wasn't Matt Lauer fired within 24 hours of his superiors finding out about his actions?


No. That's the story NBC fed you from behind the curtain, but it wasn't true.
   193. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5590241)

Monmouth’s final poll of Alabama shows ... a tie! At least with their standard turnout model. Their high turnout model shows Jones +3, while their low turnout model shows Moore +4.
I can't see anything on 538 newer than last Thursday, but they basically threw up their hands at the various polls and said, "Who the #### knows?"
   194. The Good Face Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5590243)
One of the most striking things from the 2016 election is how many working and poor white women went for Trump. It seems white women don't mind Trump's behavior that much, or if they do, they like the idea of MAGA more.


Think about it for a minute. Put yourself in their shoes. Their fathers are white men. Their brothers are white men. Their sons and husbands/boyfriends are usually white men. And the Dems are the party of hostility towards white men, especially poor and working class white men. There are a lot of Andys out there, gloating about some near future where white men will be a minority and will get what's coming to them, good and hard. Plenty of women don't find that to be an appealing future for their sons.

Poor whites don't have any class consciousness but they sure have a racial one and "MAGA" was a brilliant dog whistle.


Until fairly recently they were loyal Dem voters because they saw the Dems as more likely to look out for their interests. And no, not talking about the deep south here. Trump is POTUS because he convinced poor and working class whites in places like Pennsylvania and the Midwest that he was on their side, but he was only able to do that because the Dems completely abandoned those people when they weren't actively mocking and insulting them. The guy who actually DID try to appeal to class consciousness would have trounced Trump. Welp.
   195. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5590245)
He also ran for governor twice, and flopped badly in the GOP primaries. So let's not go overboard.


That was before the left started with their brilliant "Vote for our candidates or you're all deplorable scum buckets" elections strategy.
   196. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5590246)
Hey if you want to argue that Clinton style neo-liberalism pushed working class whites to the culture war GOP I'm with you. #### Bill Clinton.
   197. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5590247)
Monmouth’s final poll of Alabama shows ... a tie! At least with their standard turnout model. Their high turnout model shows Jones +3, while their low turnout model shows Moore +4.

I'm not finding that poll. Could you provide a link?

[182] Here


Thanks, Calculus man.
   198. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5590248)
.
   199. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5590249)
Until fairly recently they were loyal Dem voters because they saw the Dems as more likely to look out for their interests. And no, not talking about the deep south here. Trump is POTUS because he convinced poor and working class whites in places like Pennsylvania and the Midwest that he was on their side, but he was only able to do that because the Dems completely abandoned those people when they weren't actively mocking and insulting them. The guy who actually DID try to appeal to class consciousness would have trounced Trump. Welp.


Boy, you're sure making a lot of awfully small numbers do an awful lot of really heavy lifting.

   200. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5590250)
He also ran for governor twice, and flopped badly in the GOP primaries. So let's not go overboard.

That was before the left started with their brilliant "Vote for our candidates or you're all deplorable scum buckets" elections strategy.

That's how both George Wallace and Republicans were describing the Democrats' pitch going back 49 years. Try to think of something more original.
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