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Monday, December 11, 2017

OTP 11 December, 2017 - GOP strategist: Moore would have ‘date with a baseball bat’ if he tried dating teens where I grew up

“I grew up in Mississippi. Every father I knew, if he saw a guy like Roy Moore in his 30s trying to date his 16-year-old daughter, he would have had a date with a baseball bat,” Stevens, a former aide to Mitt Romney’s campaign, said on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360.”

Stevens, who worked on former Alabama Gov. Bob Riley’s (R) primary campaign against Moore in 2006, said Moore has violated the “decency standard” of civil society in his previous alleged pursuit of teenage girls.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2017 at 08:53 AM | 2653 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bats, bats are afraid, politics

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   1901. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: December 14, 2017 at 09:38 PM (#5593022)
Your worst ideologies are: ...

Queer anarchism -70%


A deathblow to the movement, no doubt.
   1902. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2017 at 09:50 PM (#5593025)
Wow. I'm pretty sure googling Odalism has put me on even more watchlists.


At first glance I read that as Odinism, which probably also gets you on a number of watchlists ...
   1903. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 14, 2017 at 09:51 PM (#5593026)
All praises to the AllFather.
   1904. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 14, 2017 at 09:58 PM (#5593029)
bunyon, #1896:
The hostility toward Jackson from John Quincy Adams was intense (and mutual) if not well publicized (due to the times). And, well...okay, I can see why Trumpkins would be worried if they're using that analogy.


But those were just two politicians who despised each other. Harry Truman was viciously contemptous of Richard Nixon and said so publicly. For Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy, it would have been worth it to either man to drag the other down into the Grand Canyon, so long as they could've been assured the other one would strike the ground and die one-thousandth of a second sooner than they would. The loathing was mutual between FDR and Huey Long. Everybody, including the ghost of Will Rogers, hates Ted Cruz. Those aren't really the same as the pivot-to-Hillary rhetoric, or advocacy, or the attempted policy that's literally being breathed into life in the Oval Office and on the floors of Congress. And of course Andrew Jackson '28 was just a little more viable and formidable a threat than Hillary Clinton '20 is.
   1905. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 14, 2017 at 09:59 PM (#5593031)
I'm glad I checked in to this never-ending shitshow in time to find the Political Sextant!

Your top ideologies are:
Social democracy 75%
Third Way 62%
Kemalism 42%

Your worst ideologies are:
Baathism -40%
Agorism -40%
Paleoconservatism -40%
Trotskyism -40%

1) I guess I should tell my BernieBro father that his son really IS a neoliberal cuck.
2) I did not think my third highest rating would put me in Attaturk's vanguard.
3) I like that I'm anti-fascist, anti-communist, anti-libertarian AND anti-conservative in equal measure. Suck it, nerds. I'm the best, except for that slightly troubling tendency towards Kemalism.
   1906. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5593032)
Looks like Dustin Hoffman is going to be next up in the bye-bye barrel.

He can't offer a half-baked apology. It must be completely baked.
   1907. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:18 PM (#5593033)
Looks like Dustin Hoffman is going to be next up in the bye-bye barrel.

Well, WTF do you expect from someone named Ratso Rizzo who later became a notorious transvestite? He was probably just in rehearsal for his next movie.
   1908. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5593034)
Trump is using Hillary as a prop to distract the Dancing Monkeys. She's useful to him for that. If she wasn't her name wouldn't even cross his mind for a second.
   1909. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:27 PM (#5593036)
Looks like Dustin Hoffman is going to be next up in the bye-bye barrel.

I’m afraid the report comes a little too late to save the reputation of John Oliver, whose virtue signalling on the stage of the 92nd Street Y was so appropriately savaged last week on these pages by the King of Comedy. Oliver’s show has been off the air since.
   1910. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:28 PM (#5593037)
Russell Simmons with #NotMe.

Russell... there are 12 accusers...
   1911. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5593038)
Just seven more, and he ties the leader of the free world.
   1912. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5593040)
I’m afraid the report comes a little too late to save the reputation of John Oliver, whose virtue signalling on the stage of the 92nd Street Y was so appropriately savaged last week on these pages by the King of Comedy. Oliver’s show has been off the air since.


Last week we were discussing facts known at the time. I was unaware that having ESP was a requirement of posting here.
   1913. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:37 PM (#5593043)
One impulsive blemish should not be allowed to stain an otherwise impeccable record of long-distance celebrity character analysis.
   1914. Shredder Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:07 PM (#5593052)
Kemalism - 75%
Social Democracy - 75%
Third Way - 75%

Mutualism, National Anarchism, and Synthesis Anarchism were my worst, whatever the hell those are.
   1915. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:15 PM (#5593054)
I’m afraid the report comes a little too late to save the reputation of John Oliver, whose virtue signalling on the stage of the 92nd Street Y was so appropriately savaged last week on these pages by the King of Comedy. Oliver’s show has been off the air since.


Well, yeah, his show wrapped for the season a few weeks ago.
   1916. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:17 PM (#5593055)
I doubt if Oliver's grilling of Hoffman is going to cost him his Last Week Tonight show, which is scheduled to resume in (I think) February.
   1917. greenback slays lewks Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:45 PM (#5593058)
Last week we were discussing facts known at the time. I was unaware that having ESP was a requirement of posting here.

You're playing it both ways, "why didn't they say anything" and "it's all virtue signaling." In this particular case it would have been easy to conclude that Oliver had not-yet-publicized dirt on Hoffman.
   1918. Omineca Greg Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:49 PM (#5593059)
I notice a lot of people getting "social democracy". I did too, 83%.

When I think of social democrats, I always think of this Churchill quote...
Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.

I think of social democrats as people who see private enterprise as the predatory tiger, but as a necessary evil to generate enough wealth to pay for government programs; they don't go to stronger types of socialism because they think that pragmatically it just won't work. What they want for humanity costs money. I like free markets, I'm in the sturdy wagon category, so I don't think of myself as a social democrat. I think of Bernie as a social democrat, and probably a few others I don't know about, but I wouldn't consider "social democracy" synonymous with "moderate Democrat". Could be my perception is off.

I dunno, just thinking out loud...and wondering what madvillain could have possibly typed in to get "Ba'athism"?...
   1919. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5593061)
Does anyone here buy into the story that Paul Ryan plans on not running for re-election?
   1920. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 14, 2017 at 11:56 PM (#5593062)
[1918] "Moderate Democrat" is listed as "Third Way."
   1921. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 15, 2017 at 12:48 AM (#5593064)
greenback to Ray, #1917:
You're playing it both ways, "why didn't they say anything" and "it's all virtue signaling." In this particular case it would have been easy to conclude that [John] Oliver had not-yet-publicized dirt on [Dustin] Hoffman.


Oh, it was publicized dirt. In fact, Oliver was badgering Hoffman about the victim's own account in this Hollywood Reporter essay, which was published more than a month before the 92nd St. Y event. Her complaint was picked up at the time by numerous news sources, including ABC News, Variety, the New York Post, USA Today, Newsweek, Huffington Post, the Guardian, Fox News, Breitbart, the L.A. Times, the Washington Times, the Wrap, NBC News, and others. But not ESP.
   1922. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 15, 2017 at 01:02 AM (#5593066)
   1923. DJS vs. The White Knights Posted: December 15, 2017 at 01:04 AM (#5593067)
Your top ideologies are:
Classical liberalism 80%
Minarchism 67%
Free-market environmentalism 75%
Liberal democracy 67%

Your worst ideologies are:
Compassionate conservatism -83%
Fourierism -88%
Gandhian economics -75%
   1924. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 15, 2017 at 01:14 AM (#5593068)
On Wednesday, Russian hackers redirected Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook internet traffic through their own provider for two hours, presumably to help study/decrypt the data and prepare for future cyberattacks.
   1925. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 15, 2017 at 05:05 AM (#5593079)
This is why many people are saying the #FailingNFL will be out of business soon.

I mean, it sucks when a great play is negated on a penalty, but that's about as blatant a hold as you will ever see. The guy has his arm wrapped around the rusher's neck from behind, pulling him back and to the ground. If he doesn't commit the penalty, the QB gets flattened and never gets the pass off, and the play never happens. Not calling penalties like that, would result in a much much worse game, than occasionally losing a great play that was only possible because of a foul.
   1926. manchestermets Posted: December 15, 2017 at 07:04 AM (#5593080)
Real men hunt cows in the wild.


Cows? Real men hunt aurochs.
   1927. Greg K Posted: December 15, 2017 at 07:16 AM (#5593081)
Fourierism -88%


That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed I don't think can be definitively said.
   1928. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 07:20 AM (#5593082)
I notice a lot of people getting "social democracy". I did too, 83%.

My score exactly.

When I think of social democrats, I always think of this Churchill quote...
Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.

I think of social democrats as people who see private enterprise as the predatory tiger, but as a necessary evil to generate enough wealth to pay for government programs; they don't go to stronger types of socialism because they think that pragmatically it just won't work. What they want for humanity costs money. I like free markets, I'm in the sturdy wagon category, so I don't think of myself as a social democrat. I think of Bernie as a social democrat, and probably a few others I don't know about, but I wouldn't consider "social democracy" synonymous with "moderate Democrat". Could be my perception is off.

Social Democracy is most associated with post-WWII Western Europe, and leaders like the Berlin mayor Willy Brandt, who later became Chancellor. It's the quintessential "third way"** that navigated a middle path between socialism and unbridled capitalism, and it wasn't at all hostile to private enterprise per se, only to its more predatory examples. Don't forget that Churchill himself was a conservative, don't forget that Britain' Labor Party after the war was well to the Left of most other social democracies, and don't forget that Churchill himself, in domestic policies at least, was well to the Left of American conservatives of his time.

And what you also have to remember is that the Right Wing Noise Machine has devoted the major part of its existence going back over 80 years in trying to peddle the line that social democracy---represented over here by the Democrats, and by programs like Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare---is some sort of a socialist / communist Trojan horse. You can see this message reflected here in the libertarian wing of BTF, most coherently by David and most incoherently by Ray. It's often been quite successful in its neverending propaganda drumbeat, but if you look at where we were 100 years ago and take the long range view, it's not hard to see where the long arc of history is headed, even if right now we're at a major bump in the road. Just take a look at the demographic breakdown of this year's elections, and notice how extreme the generational split has become.

** P. S. My "Third Way" score on that test was 75%. And for 95% of my adult life I owned my own business.

   1929. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 07:31 AM (#5593084)

peddle the line that social democracy---represented over here by the Democrats, and by programs like Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare---is some sort of a socialist / communist Trojan horse
Not really, no. The Trojan horse was when they hid something bad inside something good. This is more like hiding arsenic inside a bottle labeled arsenic.
   1930. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 07:53 AM (#5593086)
Not really, no. The Trojan horse was when they hid something bad inside something good. This is more like hiding arsenic inside a bottle labeled arsenic.


Mmmmmm, arsenic.
   1931. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:01 AM (#5593087)
Arsenic was historically used to treat syphilis. Let’s see a lawyer do better than that.
   1932. manchestermets Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:09 AM (#5593088)
Churchill himself, in domestic policies at least, was well to the Left of American conservatives of his time.


I don't know, I think there are probably plenty of American conservatives who'd approve wholeheartedly of using the army to break strikes.
   1933. McCoy Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:09 AM (#5593089)
I think the NFL is going to go out of business soon because of those hideous orange uniforms
   1934. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:16 AM (#5593090)
And what you also have to remember is that the Right Wing Noise Machine has devoted the major part of its existence going back over 80 years in trying to peddle the line that social democracy---represented over here by the Democrats, and by programs like Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare---is some sort of a socialist / communist Trojan horse

Not really, no. The Trojan horse was when they hid something bad inside something good. This is more like hiding arsenic inside a bottle labeled arsenic.


Yes, as everyone knows, universal health coverage should always come with a poison label, because everyone who gets it DIES.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Churchill himself, in domestic policies at least, was well to the Left of American conservatives of his time.

I don't know, I think there are probably plenty of American conservatives who'd approve wholeheartedly of using the army to break strikes.


And in some cases maybe even a liberal or two.
   1935. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:26 AM (#5593091)
Your top ideologies are:
Liberal socialism 43%
Nordic model 57%
Social democracy 50%

Your worst ideologies are:
Insurrectionary anarchism -40%
Integral nationalism -40%
Trotskyism -50%

I seem to have really low agreement and disagreement rates with everything. I suspect I would get a 100% match with Liberal Wishywashyism.
   1936. -- Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5593092)
it's not hard to see where the long arc of history is headed,


The long arc of history is headed toward the recession of democracy, the rise of tribalism and authoritarianism, and Decline.(*) It's going to need a major secular change to get it going back in the right direction.

There's no sane reason to believe we can put back the framework of consensus and mostly rational debate that we had in place and took for granted. We'd have to incorporate the internet and social media into it, but those are the main things that fractured it.

(*) It's not really even entirely the long arc of history -- that has been the trend since right around the turn of the century and the turn of the century is now almost 18 years ago. While correlation is not necessarily causation, the trend times almost perfectly with the rise of the internet.

   1937. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5593093)
Yes, as everyone knows, universal health coverage should always come with a poison label, because everyone who gets it DIES.
Well, it's kind of like Internet freedom in that way; the repeal of so-called net neutrality has already led to corpses piling up in the streets by the tens of thousands. I estimate that by the end of the weekend, the handful of survivors will all be back to subsistence farming.
   1938. Greg K Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5593096)
There's no sane reason to believe we can put back the framework of consensus and mostly rational debate that we had in place and took for granted. We'd have to incorporate the internet and social media into it, but those are the main things that fractured it.

I am on record as arguing that the internet is a different medium with different consequences, but it is interesting that you get a very similar argument with the rise of printing and literacy a few centuries ago.

James I was particularly concerned about the impossibility of governing a society where everyone had an opinion and the ability to widely distribute it.

EDIT: Of course, the 1620s, and even more so the 1640s seemed to prove James right. But western society figured it out in the end. So look on the bright side, although twitter will lead to a horribly destructive civil war some times in the 2020s, we'll have figured it out by the time our grand-children are adults.
   1939. Lassus Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5593097)
it's not hard to see where the long arc of history is headed

Straight into the gaping maw of the Fermi Paradox, it unfortunately seems.
   1940. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:52 AM (#5593098)
The 2017 Dukes Awards Nominees Are Here!

Always a good round up of the crazy for the year. Read them all and remember the wacky year we have had. And no they are not all about GOP President Trump (though he supplied enough to fill the slate).


This year’s categories:

Best Scandal — General Interest

Best Scandal — Local Venue

Meritorious Achievement In The Crazy

Most Heartwarming On-The-Record Quote From A Trump Associate

Literary Achievement in 140 Characters (or Instagram) By A Public Official

Best Shameless Cartoon Villain Move By An Administration Official

Best Moment From A Press Conference
   1941. -- Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:52 AM (#5593099)
James I was particularly concerned about the impossibility of governing a society where everyone had an opinion and the ability to widely distribute it.


He was right. And of course now the ability to distribute the random opinion has gone up by many orders of magnitude.
   1942. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:55 AM (#5593100)
Race for Senate Control Now a Toss Up

“The Democrats got the political version of a miracle on Tuesday. Doug Jones’s victory in Alabama means Democrats have accomplished the most difficult item on their checklist in pursuit of the Senate. A Democratic path is now obvious, and the race for control is basically a tossup, perhaps with a Republican advantage.”


But perhaps even more troubling for GOP President Trump ... Even Fox News Viewers Are Turning on Trump

“In March, Fox viewers were 40 points more likely to view Trump positively than were voters overall. By December, they were only 24 points more likely to do so — even though the numbers for Republicans — with which Fox viewership overlaps to some extent — remained fairly high. As you might expect, the percent of Fox viewers who see Trump unfavorably has climbed. In the most recent poll, more than a third of that group says they view him negatively, twice as high as the percentage of Republicans.”
   1943. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5593102)
But western society figured it out in the end.


Well yeah. Change happens, and it impacts us all and then we adjust to it. Some folks will hyperventilate, but most will just go about their daily business.

We'll be fine. Twitter is even less of a threat to Western Civilization than ISIS was.
   1944. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:02 AM (#5593103)
Russell Simmons with #NotMe

Russell... there are 12 accusers...


Ugh...I just read the articles on Simmons, and saw that the wife of a friend/former colleague is one of the accusers. What a terrible person / thing to have to deal with.
   1945. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:12 AM (#5593105)
But western society figured it out in the end.

Well yeah. Change happens, and it impacts us all and then we adjust to it. Some folks will hyperventilate, but most will just go about their daily business.
It's worth noting that if you include the Reformation as a result of the printing press, then "figuring it out" took a couple of centuries and killed 10 million+ people. Even limiting it to relatively stable Britain and the Civil War, it's somewhere north of half a million dead and a couple of decades of chaos. Looking to the printing press as a model for how we work out the ramifications of the internet is not an especially hopeful thing.
   1946. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:13 AM (#5593106)
We'd have to incorporate the internet and social media into it, but those are the main things that fractured it.


It's all, like..., computers, man.

SAN DIMAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES!
   1947. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5593107)
It's worth noting that if you include the Reformation as a result of the printing press, then "figuring it out" took a couple of centuries and killed 10 million+ people.


Were they Trump voters?
   1948. Greg K Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:16 AM (#5593108)
Yeah it is one of the draw backs of the "long-arc" thesis.

I mean, I guess it's good for humanity. But if you're a cobbler living in small-town Germany in the 1630s, it's not very comforting to hear: "sure, your entire life will be a kind of living hell...but in the longue duree we as a species are on the upswing!"

As a raging narcissist with sociopathic tendencies, I tend to care more about my life than the general direction humanity is moving in.
   1949. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:33 AM (#5593114)
Yeah it is one of the draw backs of the "long-arc" thesis.

I mean, I guess it's good for humanity. But if you're a cobbler living in small-town Germany in the 1630s, it's not very comforting to hear: "sure, your entire life will be a kind of living hell...but in the longue duree we as a species are on the upswing!"


On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
   1950. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5593115)
It's worth noting that if you include the Reformation as a result of the printing press, then "figuring it out" took a couple of centuries and killed 10 million+ people. Even limiting it to relatively stable Britain and the Civil War, it's somewhere north of half a million dead and a couple of decades of chaos. Looking to the printing press as a model for how we work out the ramifications of the internet is not an especially hopeful thing.


OK, seriously. First of all I think it more than a little questionable to assign everything bad that happened in Europe over centuries to just the printing press - it is way way more complex than that (and of course history doesn't repeat exactly). Secondly, the printing press is nearly universally hailed as being one of the top five technological innovations in human history*, so forgive me for not being afraid of the next printing press.

I am not throwing stones at you, but some here look at the decades following the dawn of the atomic age as the apex of civilization and are now fretting over the introduction of the next printing press and the decades following it. I am pretty sure we should still be more concerned about nuclear weaponry than the internet. Just saying.

* Using fire as a tool doesn't count, since it predates humanity.
   1951. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5593116)
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.


Olivia de Havilland begs to differ.
   1952. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:47 AM (#5593117)
Yeah it is one of the draw backs of the "long-arc" thesis.

I mean, I guess it's good for humanity. But if you're a cobbler living in small-town Germany in the 1630s, it's not very comforting to hear: "sure, your entire life will be a kind of living hell...but in the longue duree we as a species are on the upswing!"


I think you are conflating two things together. It is not an either or. There is no choice one has to make, do I want the printing press or a good life? Industrial revolution or security? Indoor plumbing or a stable marriage?

One of the reasons for the "long arc" is not some weird mystical force, but rather it is the accumulation of millions of choices by millions of people to try to better their lives for themselves and their children, resulting in progress over the long run for everyone. However, that doesn't make it painless or cost-less. No one would expect it to.

People did not embrace the moveable type printing press, which then led astonishingly quickly to a massive jump in literacy, because it would magically lead to progress for humanity, they embraced it because knowledge it awesome. Knowledge is power. In that moment they made the choice to embrace this new innovation for a whole host of reasons, which simplified reduce down to "I think it is better for me and my children, now and in future."

It just so happens that it was one of the great and significant technological marvels in human history. It revolutionized civilization. But blaming the printing press for the deaths that followed is like blaming freedom and democracy for the deaths in WWII. I mean I guess you can draw the line, but you are starting with a preset narrative and then supplying selective facts to bolster it.

In other words the 30 years war, for example, was caused by political, historic, and religious facts on the ground, even if some of those were precipitated indirectly by the printing press I think it silly to just assume without the printing press none of that would have happened.
   1953. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5593120)
One of the reasons for the "long arc" is not some weird mystical force, but rather it is the accumulation of millions of choices by millions of people to try to better their lives for themselves and their children, resulting in progress over the long run for everyone.


So, David's Lord and Savior the Invisible Hand of the Market, then.
   1954. BDC Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5593121)
the Reformation as a result of the printing press

I don't know about that. Reformation-like ideas circulated widely in Europe in manuscript days. Boccaccio and Chaucer were sharp critics of clerical hypocrisy and corruption, and they were just entertainers, not activists like their contemporary John Wycliffe (14th century all). You might as well say that the printing press was a result of the Reformation: the desire to circulate ideas drove the development of technology.
   1955. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5593123)
Would any of The Deplorables here mind deciphering this for the non-sane ones among us?

@seanhannity:
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017
   1956. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5593124)
And what you also have to remember is that the Right Wing Noise Machine has devoted the major part of its existence going back over 80 years in trying to peddle the line that social democracy---represented over here by the Democrats, and by programs like Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare---is some sort of a socialist / communist Trojan horse

Not really, no. The Trojan horse was when they hid something bad inside something good. This is more like hiding arsenic inside a bottle labeled arsenic.

Yes, as everyone knows, universal health coverage should always come with a poison label, because everyone who gets it DIES.

Well, it's kind of like Internet freedom in that way; the repeal of so-called net neutrality has already led to corpses piling up in the streets by the tens of thousands. I estimate that by the end of the weekend, the handful of survivors will all be back to subsistence farming.


Never mind that I haven't written a word here about net neutrality, and never mind that on the subject of universal health care you're the one doing the scaremongering by comparing it to a bottle of arsenic. But keep analogizing, I'm sure you'll come up with something.
   1957. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:55 AM (#5593125)
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017


Fewer.
   1958. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5593126)
Would any of The Deplorables here mind deciphering this for the non-sane ones among us?

@seanhannity:


Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017

Maybe it's got something to do with being forced to swallow bottles of arsenic.
   1959. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:59 AM (#5593127)
So, David's Lord and Savior the Invisible Hand of the Market, then.


No. I mean the invisible hand is a tiny subset of what I am taking about. The invisible hand is restricted, generally, to free market bound financial transactions, which is obviously the merest fraction choices that people make over their lifetime. Economists often model non-market choices in economic terms, but that is hardly the same thing.

Someone coming up with a better way to manage their crops, and that new and better method spreading everywhere, increasing food production is more than the invisible hand. The market forces explain or model why the new technique spreads (at least in a free market context), but nevertheless such innovations have been happening all of human history, well before any notion of the free market as we understand it today.

So the invisible hand is a shadow of what I am talking about, a casting of it in a specific and limited context, it is not the whole of it.

EDIT: More specifically, the market system is really great (the best system we know of) for assigning resources in an optimally efficient manner. Is says nothing about how to choose which optimally efficient manner is best, or when it is worthwhile to choose a less efficient manner, or really anything moral, ethical, or so on.
   1960. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:03 AM (#5593128)
Okay, the guy the Senate Judiciary Committee was considering Wednesday really is unqualified. Matthew Petersen is a veteran lawyer, but he has never been a litigator, and he couldn't answer basic softball questions from Sen. John Kennedy (the Republican from Louisiana, not the dead Democratic one from Massachusetts), like "What's the Daubert standard?" or "What's a motion in limine?" I'm not saying he's dumb (although, given that he knew going in - he put it in his opening statement – that he has a non-traditional background, you'd think someone smart would have prepped a bit), but he would have a ridiculous learning curve as a district judge. Don't know who thought he'd be a good idea.
   1961. dlf Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:04 AM (#5593129)
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017


Elon Musk's next SpaceX launch is at 10:35 this morning. Maybe Hannity will be on board.
   1962. dlf Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5593130)
"What's the Daubert standard?"


That is the standard for whether a comic strip can be entered as evidence of the wisdom of a political maneuver, right?
   1963. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:07 AM (#5593131)
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017


The nutwings (I pulled up Zero Hedge this time) says Hannity has a "Obama bombshell" that's coming soon. A BOMBSHELL!
   1964. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5593132)
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017



Fewer.


This is an interesting puzzle. Fewer is used for countable things, so the question is how countable is time? Last I checked physics was struggling trying to decide whether there is a smallest possible unit of time, a "time atom" if you will, beyond which you cannot subdivide it (meaning fewer is most accurate), or is time a continuum, able to be subdivided forever (meaning it is perhaps uncountable and suggesting that less is more correct).

I mean you could look to linguistics for the answer which is better to use, but personally I would rather seek the answer in physics. :)
   1965. Lassus Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5593133)
Tick Tock in less than 2 hours. ...
8:39 AM - 15 Dec 2017


Nuclear strike on Pyongyang?
   1966. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:10 AM (#5593134)
Nuclear strike on Pyongyang?


It's about the uranium "scandal" that the nutters have been rubbing out to for months. It is literally nothing to anyone with a functioning brain.
   1967. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5593135)
Nuclear strike on Pyongyang?


I blame the internet for all the deaths incurred.
   1968. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5593136)
Okay, the guy the Senate Judiciary Committee was considering Wednesday really is unqualified. Matthew Petersen is a veteran lawyer, but he has never been a litigator, and he couldn't answer basic softball questions from Sen. John Kennedy (the Republican from Louisiana, not the dead Democratic one from Massachusetts), like "What's the Daubert standard?" or "What's a motion in limine?" I'm not saying he's dumb (although, given that he knew going in - he put it in his opening statement – that he has a non-traditional background, you'd think someone smart would have prepped a bit), but he would have a ridiculous learning curve as a district judge. Don't know who thought he'd be a good idea.

Some would say this calls into question the administration's judicial nominee process. Some might even say more exhaustive vetting is warranted. Perhaps we shouldn't be rushing to approve nominees to lifetime appointments if this is the caliber of candidates presented by the Republican Party. Definitely worth monitoring, but BBTFers have to consider themselves very lucky this morning that we have an individual so interested in the state of judicial nominees. Though it's worrying he didn't share this news, as it's already gone viral and clearly news. The judicial review process is finally getting some attention! Happy for The Yankee Clapper *blushing emoji*
   1969. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5593137)
Some would say this calls into question the administration's judicial nominee process. Some might even say more exhaustive vetting is warranted. Perhaps we shouldn't be rushing to approve nominees to lifetime appointments if this is the caliber of candidates presented by the Republican Party. Definitely worth monitoring, but BBTFers have to consider themselves very lucky this morning that we have an individual so interested in the state of judicial nominees. Though it's worrying he didn't share this news, as it's already gone viral and clearly news. The judicial review process is finally getting some attention! Happy for The Yankee Clapper *blushing emoji*


He couldn't post at length about this because he was so overcome with happiness that someone was finally looking at the judicial nomination process along with him.
   1970. DavidFoss Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:19 AM (#5593138)
Have Hannity's Tick Tocks led to anything yet? I mean, people he disagrees with will have their share of scandals from time to time, but I'll wait until the news is formally broken by a real journalist first (even one from Fox).
   1971. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5593139)
Okay, the guy the Senate Judiciary Committee was considering Wednesday really is unqualified. Matthew Petersen is a veteran lawyer, but he has never been a litigator, and he couldn't answer basic softball questions from Sen. John Kennedy (the Republican from Louisiana, not the dead Democratic one from Massachusetts), like "What's the Daubert standard?" or "What's a motion in limine?" I'm not saying he's dumb (although, given that he knew going in - he put it in his opening statement – that he has a non-traditional background, you'd think someone smart would have prepped a bit), but he would have a ridiculous learning curve as a district judge. Don't know who thought he'd be a good idea.

I dunno, but here's one possibility.
The Trump administration has been filling judicial vacancies in rapid succession, with the majority of nominees having one thing in common: ties to the Federalist Society.

Groups on the left have accused the White House of outsourcing the nomination process to the Washington, D.C.-based group as it seeks to stack the courts with conservative judges.

Of the 13 judicial nominees confirmed since President Trump took office, 10 are either current or former Federalist Society members or regular speakers at its events. Eight of the 10 appellate Trump nominees pending before the Senate have ties to the group.

Leonard Leo, executive vice president of the Federalist Society, is a White House adviser on judicial nominations. He reportedly played a key role in Trump’s nomination of Neil Gorsuch to replace the late Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court.

Leo declined numerous requests to be interviewed for this story, as did other Federalist Society staff members....

Of course you might want to say that Petersen is too unqualified for the Society to have recommended him, in which case it's safe to assume that he just wrote a string of pro-Trump tweets in order to secure the nomination.
   1972. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5593142)
1817

[1815] It's not just Sugar Bear. Sean Hannity is all over it. Hillary fear mongering has been a quite successful business model for Fox News in general even.


It actually started in 1994, when the joke going around went something like:

Limbaugh: "O.J. Simpson is on trial for murdering his wife and another man. Now, the question is, 'How was Hillary involved...'"
   1973. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5593143)
It's about the uranium "scandal" that the nutters have been rubbing out to for months. It is literally nothing to anyone with a functioning brain.

Fair payback for the Obama administration rounding up and prosecuting members of the GWB admin for war crimes because of their torture regime.

Or...maybe Hannity is going all OAN and calling the Alabama Senate race for Republican nominee (and credibly accused molester) Roy Moore?
   1974. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5593144)
Have Hannity's Tick Tocks led to anything yet?


They keep the Fox idiots frothing about Hillary and Obama, which is what they are meant to do.
   1975. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5593145)
the Reformation as a result of the printing press

I don't know about that. Reformation-like ideas circulated widely in Europe in manuscript days. Boccaccio and Chaucer were sharp critics of clerical hypocrisy and corruption, and they were just entertainers, not activists like their contemporary John Wycliffe (14th century all). You might as well say that the printing press was a result of the Reformation: the desire to circulate ideas drove the development of technology.
That's the whole thing, reforming ideas had been in the air basically forever, but they never caught hold Europe-wide until after the printing was well established. Look at the example of the Hussite movement of the early 16th century, which was basically a Protestant movement that couldn't expand outside of Bohemia, at least in part because they couldn't broadly circulate broadsides and apologies and jeremiads. And there's the specific history of Luther and Zwingli -- to both the printed works of Erasmus, especially his Greek New Testament, were critical. Direct action by the printing press, as it were.

I also don't buy that the Reformation drove the printing press. Caxton for instance printed so many things that weren't religious texts, and also many religious texts that don't look especially "Protestantish". The Reformation was certainly good for the printing business, but any sort of controversy was, at least until a local prince or bishop locked you up for it.
   1976. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5593146)
1818

Wait.

Has Trump seriously convinced his Trumpkins that the real fear remains Hillary could still be President?

Seriously?



No, there is no chance she ever will be. Which makes her delusions about and study of The Kenyan Precedent all the more comical. (And yes, they really did happen and really were reported on and really were commented upon in OTP in real time. No shock that the TDS brigade didn't notice; after all, Donald Trump might have tweeted something inconsistent with what Rex Tillerson's deputy said that day -- and we can't miss out on that!!)


OK, that was months ago -- a lifetime in the current news cycle, number one. And number B, you said it yourself: she is not President and never will be. So, as I've said before, whatever nefarious activities Hillary and/or the DNC engaged in, they must've been pretty frikken bad at them, seeing as we now have the P-Grabber-In-Chief living at ol' 1600.

If you spin any harder, Bear, you're going to screw yourself into the ground.
   1977. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5593150)
OK, that was months ago -- a lifetime in the current news cycle, number one.


BTW, I had no clue what the "Kenyan Precedent" even was. My initial guess was birther nonsense and misspelling of President, but I figured that was nuts*. However, after that I was lost. Maybe it was a thing while I was vacationing from this thread, but sheesh.

* More so even than I usually expect from certain quarters.
   1978. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5593151)
Remember that "fourth wall" of professionalism I spoke of?

Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) shared the video of the hearing on Twitter, writing, “MUST WATCH: Republican @SenJohn asks one of @realDonaldTrump’s US District Judge nominees basic questions of law & he can’t answer a single one. Hoo-boy.”


Classy.
   1979. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5593152)
Decline.
   1980. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5593154)
@CNN:
President Trump on the FBI: “It’s a shame what’s happened with the FBI. We’re gonna rebuild the FBI. It’ll be bigger and better than ever.”

@KT_So_It_Goes:
MAGA: the Deep State is too big

ALSO MAGA: the Deep State needs to be bigger
   1981. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5593155)
Or...maybe Hannity is going all OAN and calling the Alabama Senate race for Republican nominee (and credibly accused molester) Roy Moore?

I'd barely heard of OAN, but here's what I discovered via Wiki:

During the night of the election, OANN announced that Moore had swept the election "by a large margin" when in actuality, Moore ended up losing the race.[35] In its announcement, the network cited "unofficial polling" and the news anchor then extended the OAN CEO Robert Herring's congratulations to Moore on having run a "fine campaign."[35] OAN's website also published an erroneous article claiming that Moore had won, writing that he won "despite attacks from democrats about unverified allegations."[35] During election night, OAN also said that it had "reports that a number of people have been caught trying to sneak into voting booths and vote illegally"; however, Alabama Secretary of State’s office said that it had no credible reports of voter fraud.[36]

[35]Bowden, John (2017-12-14). "Conservative news outlet called Alabama race for Moore". TheHill. Retrieved 2017-12-15.

[36]Weigel, David (2017-12-14). "White House urges Roy Moore to concede, as supporters look for evidence of 'voter fraud'". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2017-12-15.
   1982. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5593156)
BTW, I had no clue what the "Kenyan Precedent" even was. My initial guess was birther nonsense and misspelling of President, but I figured that was nuts*. However, after that I was lost. Maybe it was a thing while I was vacationing from this thread, but sheesh.

* More so even than I usually expect from certain quarters.


So Hillary whines something stupid and it's SBB's fault?
   1983. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5593158)
President Trump on the FBI: “It’s a shame what’s happened with the FBI. We’re gonna rebuild the FBI. It’ll be bigger and better than ever.”

But if any FBI agent was caught smirking while hearing that speech, it's proof that they're biased and deserve to be fired!
   1984. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5593159)
I hope Moore NEVER concedes. I want endless recounts and vast conspiracy theories to engulf Alabama for the whole next cycle. True believers pitted against the GOP establishment sellouts who are really part of the deep state.

Make it happen Roy Moore, make it happen.
   1985. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5593160)
The clip of the Q&A with the judge that David mentioned above.... so Clapper can put in his judge watch folder.

Not a good look, as they say.

Would have been funny if Kennedy had responded to the motion in limine question "well, I think your chances of confirmation sure wish you had filed one before this hearing".
   1986. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5593162)
So Hillary whines something stupid and it's SBB's fault?


Huh? SBB posted something delusional (part of which was admittedly a carefully selected part of the vast number of things Hillary has said) and that post is the Stretchy Band Ninja's fault, yes.

I am responsible for what I post and despite a running need to make everything the fault of some democrat somewhere, what he posts is his fault.
   1987. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5593163)
I hope Moore NEVER concedes. I want endless recounts and vast conspiracy theories to engulf Alabama for the whole next cycle. True believers pitted against the GOP establishment sellouts who are really part of the deep state.

Make it happen Roy Moore, make it happen.


And with luck, they'll settle their feud with the Mother of All Demolition Derbies.
   1988. Lassus Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5593164)
If that original Hannity tweet was at 8:39 AM, it's now been more than two hours.
   1989. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5593165)
Maybe this, as reported by my beloved Daily Mail, is Hannity's Obombashell:

Trump says he's not ready to talk about pardoning Mike Flynn 'yet' and Roy Moore should throw in the towel in Alabama senate race as he attacks 'rigged system' that cleared Hillary

Trump hinted that he might issue a presidential pardon to Mike Flynn

President also said Alabama Republican U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore should admit he lost Tuesday's election

...

'I don't want to talk about pardons with Michael Flynn yet. We'll see what happens,' the president said as he left the White House for a speech to FBI agents in Virginia.

'When you look at what’s going on with the FBI and the Justice Department, people are very, very angry,' he added.

Trump also threw a jab at the Justice Department for clearing Hillary Clinton in the case of her mishandling of classified information on a private email server.

That declaration came in the context of a question about whether his campaign colluded with Russia to tilt the 2016 election in his favor.

'They found tremendous things on the other side,' he said. 'When you look at the Hillary Clinton investigation, it was – I've been saying for a long time – that was a rigged system, folks. That was a rigged system.

'When you look at what they did with respect to the Hillary Clinton investigation, it was rigged. And there's never been anything like it in this country that we've ever found before. It's very, very sad. Very, very sad.'

...

Trump also said Moore should throw in the towel instead of contesting his loss in a recount.

'I think he should. He tried,' he said.

'I want to support – always I want to support the person running. We need the seat.'

But Moore, he said, should admit he lost and move on.

'As Roy Moore, yeah, it's certainly – I would certainly say he should.


   1990. BrianBrianson Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5593167)
So Hillary whines something stupid and it's SBB's fault?


It's his fault he's giving her an audience.
   1991. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5593169)
Huh? SBB posted something delusional (part of which was admittedly a carefully selected part of the vast number of things Hillary has said) and that post is the Stretchy Band Ninja's fault, yes.


1/3 of the population can't identify humor.
   1992. Count Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5593170)
Trump also said this morning "I don’t want to talk about pardons for Michael Flynn yet." Again, the GOP could forestall pardons and firing Mueller if they announced that it was a red line that would lead to impeachment. Instead, they are laying the groundwork for firing Mueller by attacking the investigation on spurious grounds.
   1993. Greg K Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5593171)
I think you are conflating two things together. It is not an either or. There is no choice one has to make, do I want the printing press or a good life? Industrial revolution or security? Indoor plumbing or a stable marriage?

One of the reasons for the "long arc" is not some weird mystical force, but rather it is the accumulation of millions of choices by millions of people to try to better their lives for themselves and their children, resulting in progress over the long run for everyone. However, that doesn't make it painless or cost-less. No one would expect it to.

People did not embrace the moveable type printing press, which then led astonishingly quickly to a massive jump in literacy, because it would magically lead to progress for humanity, they embraced it because knowledge it awesome. Knowledge is power. In that moment they made the choice to embrace this new innovation for a whole host of reasons, which simplified reduce down to "I think it is better for me and my children, now and in future."

It just so happens that it was one of the great and significant technological marvels in human history. It revolutionized civilization. But blaming the printing press for the deaths that followed is like blaming freedom and democracy for the deaths in WWII. I mean I guess you can draw the line, but you are starting with a preset narrative and then supplying selective facts to bolster it.

In other words the 30 years war, for example, was caused by political, historic, and religious facts on the ground, even if some of those were precipitated indirectly by the printing press I think it silly to just assume without the printing press none of that would have happened.

I think there may be a misunderstanding about what I'm arguing, or in fact, whether we disagree at all.

I'm not saying that if I had a time machine I'd go back and smash up every printing press I could find and thus save humanity a great disaster.

Taken in aggregate I'm sure the printing press has been a net positive for humanity (not sure how one would measure that precisely, but it's a net positive for me, reading books is fun!)

I'm not arguing for an either/or. The question isn't whether we should make twitter illegal, or fry all tele-communications systems. But to recognize that technology and different forms of media have inherent qualities of their own that are worth understanding (and in particular, their particular influence over society/politics/economics is worth understanding). As noted above, it's difficult to tell a comprehensive history of the Reformation without treating printing, not just as another instrument of spreading information, but as a medium which spreads information in very particular ways.

The question isn't (for me anyway), social media: good or bad? But what influence social media will have on politics and society. This is a question that can be answered in the long-run or in the short-term. Both are valid approaches to history, but some people live their entire lives in the short-run.
   1994. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5593172)
It's his fault he's giving her an audience.


She was the Democratic nominee. It seems that you and yours are the ones who gave her an audience. But carry on.
   1995. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5593174)
Remember that "fourth wall" of professionalism I spoke of?


Trumpkins don't get to lecture others on "professionalism," Ray.
   1996. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5593176)
Again, the GOP could forestall pardons and firing Mueller if they announced that it was a red line that would lead to impeachment.


Why would the president exercising his constitutional powers be something that should be impeachable?
   1997. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5593177)
1/3 of the population can't identify humor.


I will admit, promptly and forthrightly, that I missed any and all humor in #1982. I believe you that it was an attempt humor and move on with my life. As always I will defer before GB and his knowledge and analysis regarding "the funny".
   1998. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5593178)
I'd barely heard of OAN, but here's what I discovered via Wiki:


What's really hilarious is that now that they've taken their Roy Wins! article down - the latest news items they have listed is his big election eve rally with Bannon... despite 50+ stories on the race and what appears to be an almost hourly update on the race.... well, before the results.
   1999. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5593179)
This is an interesting puzzle. Fewer is used for countable things, so the question is how countable is time? Last I checked physics was struggling trying to decide whether there is a smallest possible unit of time, a "time atom" if you will, beyond which you cannot subdivide it (meaning fewer is most accurate), or is time a continuum, able to be subdivided forever (meaning it is perhaps uncountable and suggesting that less is more correct).

You can also count the water molecules in a glass of water. It's still "less water," and not "fewer water." The units are so small that they are imperceptible, so irrelevant to the way humans perceive and experience them.

It's "less than 2 hours."
   2000. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5593180)
1857

It does seem different today, in the sense that people are actually still apprehensive about waking up tomorrow to find Hillary taking office.


Kind of like the end of Fatal Attraction, or betting against the Yankees, Patriots or Warriors: don't count them out until they close the lid...

EDIT: Oh, crap. Should I have said "spoiler alert...?"
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