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Monday, September 11, 2017

OTP 11 September 2017: Hurricane Irma wreaking havoc on minor league baseball playoffs

There are 18 minor league affiliations that play playoffs every season, and those playoffs all have different formats – some with one wild card, some with split first-half/second-half winners, some with a required 8-10 team playoff grouping. This season, the issues caused by Hurricane Irma will lead to 3 of those 18 championships being cancelled and turned into co-champions.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:54 AM | 1783 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: minor league baseball, minor leagues, playoffs, politics

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   701. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5531117)
Is this country really ready to elect a Ugandan savage as President?

Ha! Turn out the lights, this partys over.


Nobody cares what you think, you jive soul bro.
   702. The Good Face Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5531118)
Since we're doing Real Talk, I should probably tell you that Bitter Mouse is absolutely right about the one-line responses to everything in my posts being a tell that you're flailing.


Does your mom also tell you that you're really smart and winning all your internet debates? Stand up on your hind legs for once and stop hiding behind other people. Take ownership of your life instead of being such a puling manling.

What does "justice" have to do with you making fun of Sam's weight during a discussion about politics?


Once you threaten to murder somebody and their family, your right to take offense at some fat jokes directed your way dries up. Sam's made his bed, and he'll have to lie in it.

You think that the only reason other people here don't compulsively tweak and poke and needle each other with gratuitous and irrelevant opprobrium is because they're unquestioning slaves to social convention?


I think people here do compulsively tweak and poke and needle each other, and they do it because they're slaves to social convention. They merely direct that gratuitous opprobrium towards members of outgroups. You engage in that behavior yourself.

That seems like an unnecessarily complicated explanation - wouldn't it be simpler to suggest that other people don't do it because they don't have the kind of latent insecurities that compel you to do so?


People slavishly reinforce tribal membership status because they're insecure.
   703. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:01 PM (#5531119)
Translation: If you live in a city where the median rent is greater than your monthly pay, it's your fault for not moving to Mississippi or Kansas.


I want to buy a vacation home in Mississippi. See how perspicacious I am?
   704. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:01 PM (#5531120)
Why not post a substantive reaction to 666

If you could be inside my head, youd see that black and white is red.
   705. BrianBrianson Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5531122)
This is so interesting to me. Like the terrorism problem, people don't want to be honest about what the problem actually IS, and the causes of it. So they say that housing costs are the problem, rich people are the cause, taxpayers are the cause, capitalism is the cause...... And they never actually allow a conversation centered on the actual causes and sources of the problem.


Ray, if you left the conversation, everyone would honestly discussing the causes of homelessness. Which are mostly mental illness, and various poverty traps. 666 is a good example - if you give people a path out of homelessness, essentially all the non-mentally ill ones take it. But if you try to give people a path out of homelessness, it becomes a political non-starter because people like you keep pushing policies to make it more difficult for the homeless to get out of the trap.

Even if people end up homeless in the first place because of bad life decisions - shouldn't have chosen to be gay knowing you had fundy parents, shouldn't have chosen a boyfriend who starts beating you once you get knocked up, - or, if you want a less virtuous one, shouldn't have chosen to try meth - well, those were bad choices. But once you're homeless, merely have people continue to stomp you down because you previously made a bad decision - that decision can't be unmade.
   706. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5531123)
What's your plan of action for the mentally ill class of homeless?


Unfortunately, like my plan for curing Stage 4 cancer, there isn't a solution.

We can somewhat forcibly institutionalize them, which we had been doing, but society deemed that doing so was untoward.

So the only other solution is to deinstitutionalize them and provide shelters/food/etc.

There's nowhere else to go with the problem. Mental illness is as big or a bigger disease than severe physical diseases, there's mostly no cure, and thus nothing left for us to do beyond what we've been doing, other than to revert to institutionalizing them. But that doesn't mean we have to incentivize it either.
   707. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:06 PM (#5531124)
BM, I did not RTFPDF but your excerpts make me question the rigor of that study. How on earth does one glibly determine that "poverty" is a cause of a man's homelessness? How do you distinguish between poverty and unemployment, or poverty and lack of affordable housing? Moreover, one suspects that 99.9% of those polled suffer from poverty (duh) or lack of affordable housing (duh)... what % suffer from mental health disorders or substance abuse? If it's like 97%, isn't that a pretty strong indication that Ray is right?
   708. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:07 PM (#5531125)
By the way, like I said, I just choose the top three google hits with no more screening than that. If you have a more credible source than the Salvation Army, National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty, and HomeAid I am glad to hear it. Please provide a link to your source. Thanks!


Almost any source would be more credible than those. They have a bias and a vested interest in presenting the problem in a certain way, so as to maximize funding that is funneled to their group. They have skin in the game.

That's why they lied to you and deceived you as to what the causes of the problem are.
   709. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5531126)
If theres one thing that could unite OTP, its a pogrom targetting hipsters.

But first -- take this quiz
   710. Omineca Greg Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:10 PM (#5531128)
Hipsters are annoying. To try to tie poverty to hipsterdom is a neat little trick...I guess.

But hipsters always suck. How 'bout the hipsters in Médecins Sans Frontières? "Oh, I'm going to a humanitarian crisis in Kyrgyzstan, it's still kind of underground, you probably haven't heard of it yet..."

Or Carthusian monk hipsters, "I prayed 8 hours today for 'World Peace'. Sometimes you gotta go for the McChicken..."

Or a special needs teacher hipster, "Like this class is really giving me a Proust/Schoenberg kind of vibe. Sort of a twelve tone À la recherche du temps perdu thing."

Doesn't reflect on those three group as a whole.
   711. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5531129)
BM, I did not RTFPDF but your excerpts make me question the rigor of that study. How on earth does one glibly determine that "poverty" is a cause of a man's homelessness? How do you distinguish between poverty and unemployment, or poverty and lack of affordable housing?


Right, "unemployment" is a non-answer, and an educated and serious person would immediately be able to see that. Homeless people are largely unemployed. Yay. That's such a brilliant insight. Now, what is the CAUSE of said unemployment? What is the CAUSE of them not being able to afford housing? You have to drill down to get at the meat of the issue.
   712. The Good Face Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5531130)
I'd wager everybody in the world has made a 'poor life decision' at one time or another in their life.


Virtually everybody makes some poor life decisions. I remember this one time I was at a dinner and I couldn't decide between the grilled octopus and the pan seared Muscovy duck for my appetizer; I chose the duck, and then the server brought the dishes out and I was like, FUCK, that octopus looks delicious. And it was! Gave me a serious case of futterneid. Poor life decision. But some people make a lot more than other people, and/or make much more serious poor life decisions.

I mean - if you want to get down to brass tacks and put it in a vacuum that sets aside larger policy implications, thinking you'll just work at the local factory or in the local coal mine all your life constitutes a poor life decision, too.


Sigh. So what's Danny Dimbulb with his 85 IQ supposed to do? Go to Stanford and become a disruptive software innovator in Silicon Valley?
   713. Covfefe Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5531132)
There's nowhere else to go with the problem. Mental illness is as big or a bigger disease than severe physical diseases, there's mostly no cure, and thus nothing left for us to do beyond what we've been doing, other than to revert to institutionalizing them. But that doesn't mean we have to incentivize it either.


This is patently absurd.

Mental healthcare is grossly underfunded and horrifically under-available, especially for those at lower income levels... Hell - just today - a story crossed my RSS feed that negotiations in the Senate over covering the ACA insurance subsidies are breaking down over GOP demands that mental health requirements be removed from the mandatory benefits schema.

   714. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:15 PM (#5531133)
I think hipsters are terrific. And these neo-hobos are not hipsters in any way.
   715. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5531134)
Stand up on your hind legs for once and stop hiding behind other people.


I'm right here in front of you. Have been for the whole thread. Which is probably why you're getting more and more frustrated and continuing to act out.

Once you threaten to murder somebody and their family, your right to take offense at some fat jokes directed your way dries up.


So once someone else does something you consider to be bad, anything goes as far as your own treatment of them? That seems like a very situational code of ethics. By that standard, is it OK to rob a thief, or to kill a murderer?

I think people here do compulsively tweak and poke and needle each other, and they do it because they're slaves to social convention.


I don't disagree with you about the compulsive and maladaptive aspects of some of the political discourse in this thread, but I'm not sure that I buy adherence to social convention as the driving factor. Can you elaborate on exactly what social convention you think is driving this?

People slavishly reinforce tribal membership status because they're insecure.


Yes, exactly! But you don't think that this is what you're trying to do when you derail conversation by tossing out preemptive ad hominems? Like a hetero version of a redpill guy negging the girl he wants to get in the sack?
   716. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5531135)
Sort of a twelve tone À la recherche du temps perdu thing.


Kill me now.
   717. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:19 PM (#5531136)
714 -- frustrating, nest-ce pas?
   718. Covfefe Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:27 PM (#5531138)
Sigh. So what's Danny Dimbulb with his 85 IQ supposed to do? Go to Stanford and become a disruptive software innovator in Silicon Valley?


First - I'd just say that you grossly misunderstand modern software development and are stuck in an 80s era Wargames mindset if you think only geniuses write code or involved in development lifecycles today. The nature of the modern beast is that you DO have to relatively intelligent to architect it, but implementation in various areas (as well as necessary ancillary areas like QA) nowadays isn't a whole lot more taxing than learning how to assemble the widget on the assembly line.

But - even setting that aside... manufacturing sector employment has been flat or declining for as long as anyone under 65 has been old enough to even think about life after childhood. You know what hasn't? The service sector. Transportation. Etc.

So - Danny Dimbulb should have set his sights on getting a CDL and becoming a trucker... or an installer... or whatnot.
   719. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5531139)
There's nowhere else to go with the problem. Mental illness is as big or a bigger disease than severe physical diseases, there's mostly no cure, and thus nothing left for us to do beyond what we've been doing, other than to revert to institutionalizing them. But that doesn't mean we have to incentivize it either.



This is patently absurd.

Mental healthcare is grossly underfunded and horrifically under-available, especially for those at lower income levels... Hell - just today - a story crossed my RSS feed that negotiations in the Senate over covering the ACA insurance subsidies are breaking down over GOP demands that mental health requirements be removed from the mandatory benefits schema.


Well, there is something else we can do. We can encourage families to step up and care for mentally ill individuals in their family, at least those mentally ill individuals who have families. But there is precisely zero discussion of this as one possible solution for the cases in which it applies. Instead people prattle on about the alleged high cost of housing.

We could shame people who don't care for their mentally ill family members, like we shame people who won't bake cakes for gay weddings. We could even divert some funding towards these families, to help with the situation. But for the family members it's a lot of hard work so many of them are not interested, and for politicians it doesn't provide a great soap box speech, so many of them aren't interested. I mean, you don't get to go on and on about how it costs so so so much to rent an apartment or have a house.
   720. The Good Face Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5531140)
I'm right here in front of you. Have been for the whole thread.


No, you're hiding behind your amen chorus. Which is one of the benefits of slavishly maintaining membership in your tribe, so I can see why somebody like you would do it. That alternatives are taking responsibility for yourself, a fate worse than death for you.

So once someone else does something you consider to be bad, anything goes as far as your own treatment of them?


Since when is calling somebody fat "anything goes"? Sam acts like a psychotic, raging dick so he gets treated with contempt. If he decided to improve his behavior, I'd consider changing how I treat him. But he's happy doing his thing and I'm happy on my end, so whatever.

By that standard, is it OK to rob a thief, or to kill a murderer?


Pretty sure there are laws about that kind of thing. Is there a law against calling blowhards who issue death threats "fat"? Maybe in the CFR? Somewhere near the back perhaps?

I don't disagree with you about the compulsive and maladaptive aspects of some of the political discourse in this thread, but I'm not sure that I buy adherence to social convention as the driving factor. Can you elaborate on exactly what social convention you think is driving this?


Tribal solidarity and membership is reinforced through attacking outgroups, particularly outgroups perceived as enemies. This is wired into our monkey brains; throw poo at the outsider!

Yes, exactly! But you don't think that this is what you're trying to do when you derail conversation by tossing out preemptive ad hominems?


I don't have a tribe here. Nobody for me to impress or solidify my good standing with. But you certainly do, and you go to great pains to make sure you remain within its constraints. Once again, you're projecting your behavior and motivations onto me.
   721. BrianBrianson Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:36 PM (#5531141)
Ray, please come back to planet earth. We do both of those things in spades.

If you have a family that's in a position to support you, you're probably not homeless. But it's very tough to care for the mentally ill - many families can't do it, because they don't know how (indeed, that's probably true of most families). Apart from a few fundies happy to toss their gay/atheist kids on the street, parents aren't choosing to have their kids sleep rough.

Seriously, think through the kind of craziness you're spewing before barfing it up. People choosing to spend their nights in a lice infested bunk with stabby Carl. Parents telling the kids they spent 20 years raising they should go sleep in an oil drum because they might mess up the guest room. These aren't plausible scenarios.
   722. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:38 PM (#5531142)
According to the most recent annual survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors, major cities across the country report that top causes of homelessness among families were:
(1) lack of affordable housing,
(2) unemployment,
(3) poverty, and
(4) low wages, in that order.
Um, aren't those all pretty much the same thing?
   723. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5531143)
We can encourage families to step up and care for mentally ill individuals in their family, at least those mentally ill individuals who have families.


What makes you think that random members of the general public are qualified to provide adequate care for the mentally ill?
   724. BrianBrianson Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5531145)
Um, aren't those all pretty much the same thing?


If it's a survey without a list of possible answers, you're going to get a lot of fairly similar answers, as people use the different words to express related ideas.

Why are people homeless? Because they can't afford a home. The number of people who can afford a home but choose not to are vanishingly small. But why can't they afford a home? You might say "the homes are too expensive" or you might say "jobs don't pay enough to allow you to afford a home" if you're not prompted. But you gotta repeat the idea 'til it gets into Ray's head.
   725. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5531146)
Hey everybody. I just got cell service at my house. I returned from exile yesterday afternoon and have been incommunicado since. I'm fine, my house is fine, just a real mess in the yard. Lost a lot of trees and parts of trees. Don't believe reports of 90% of the homes in the keys being destroyed or significantly damaged. Maybe on some islands, but far from county wide. No internet yet, so I'm on my phone which is a pain. I'll check in as time allows. Gonna spend my time helping friends far worse off than me
   726. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5531147)
People choosing to spend their nights in a lice infested bunk with stabby Carl. Parents telling the kids they spent 20 years raising they should go sleep in an oil drum because they might mess up the guest room. These aren't plausible scenarios.


Kindly explain this phenomenon. Now, a lot of crusties are assuredly drug addicts and had terrible upbringings and such, but there remains a clear cultural attraction to the lifestyle, and I betcha that many of these types started out at age 15 reading On The Road in their suburban homes.
   727. Covfefe Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5531148)
Well, there is something else we can do. We can encourage families to step up and care for mentally ill individuals in their family, at least those mentally ill individuals who have families. But there is precisely zero discussion of this as one possible solution for the cases in which it applies. Instead people prattle on about the alleged high cost of housing.

We could shame people who don't care for their mentally ill family members, like we shame people who won't bake cakes for gay weddings. We could even divert some funding towards these families, to help with the situation. But for the family members it's a lot of hard work so many of them are not interested, and for politicians it doesn't provide a great soap box speech, so many of them aren't interested. I mean, you don't get to go on and on about how it costs so so so much to rent an apartment or have a house


You make it sound like mental health care is a matter of just making chicken soup for the family member suffering mental health issues.

It's not.

This is a few years old - but pretty good background on the barriers towards what you suggest.

My ex-GF works at a public mental center back in Illinois -- this is the sort of place that those so-called lazy family members get routed to for such care -- and AFTER said families have secured a referral from a school guidance counselor or physician, the waiting list just for an intake session that puts you in line is 6 to 9 months.... that's just for the initial intake. Truly severe mental health issues - like say, schizophrenia - aren't supposed to route to them (they're not staffed to handle cases that require extensive hospitalization/medication/etc), but they still get a healthy chunk of referrals that they then immediately route to more critical care providers.... which, themselves, are also over-burdened.

   728. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:48 PM (#5531149)
No, you're hiding behind your amen chorus. Which is one of the benefits of slavishly maintaining membership in your tribe, so I can see why somebody like you would do it.


What "amen chorus" is this? What "tribe" do you think is backing me up when I call you out for being rude and disruptive?

Pretty sure there are laws about that kind of thing.


We were speaking about morals, though, not laws. You said that you were motivated by "justice". Is it just to treat people badly just because you think they themselves are bad people?

Tribal solidarity and membership is reinforced through attacking outgroups, particularly outgroups perceived as enemies. This is wired into our monkey brains; throw poo at the outsider!
[...]
I don't have a tribe here. Nobody for me to impress or solidify my good standing with. But you certainly do, and you go to great pains to make sure you remain within its constraints.


I understand the underlying mechanism, which is part of why it seems so obvious to me that your own aggression is an expression of that exact dynamic, as you seek to preemptively solidify your own status by putting others in their place, in order to compensate for that gnawing voice down at your core. But I am curious as to how you define the groups in question. What tribes are in operation on this board? You deliberately used the plural, so you obviously believe that there are more than one.

Also, are you deliberately trying to position yourself as an outsider from these tribes, or is it an inadvertent consequence? If it's the former, what are you trying to achieve by doing so?
   729. Covfefe Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5531150)
Tribal solidarity and membership is reinforced through attacking outgroups, particularly outgroups perceived as enemies. This is wired into our monkey brains; throw poo at the outsider!


Assuming you'd agree that one can certainly classify the homeless as an "outgroup" -- I'd say that I agree and I think we've seen it exemplified the last few pages.
   730. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5531151)
Great to hear, Mis!

Keep us posted.
   731. PepTech Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5531152)
Thanks for the update, misirlou, been thinking about you. Glad to here things aren't as bad where you are - still sounds bad out where the eye hit, though. If the water transmission system is effed up, that could be rough. And some of the sand accumulation in spots looks like it will take a long, long time to address.

Stay safe!
   732. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:54 PM (#5531153)
Um, aren't those all pretty much the same thing?

If it's a survey without a list of possible answers, you're going to get a lot of fairly similar answers, as people use the different words to express related ideas.


Then you group them as one item, instead of saying "in that order."

...If you're being objective, rather than trying to pretend that mental illness is just one of many other factors by hiding mental illness among the list of repeats.
   733. Srul Itza Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:56 PM (#5531155)
Um, aren't those all pretty much the same thing?


"(2) unemployment, (3) poverty, and (4) low wages" are.

Lack of affordable housing is a slightly different issue. For a variety of reasons, housing costs have gone up faster than wages have risen. People are being completely priced out of the market.

You also get a cascade effect. Miss a couple paychecks, and because so much goes for rent, you don't have the reserves. So you end up sleeping in your car or whatever, and then it gets harder to get back to square one.

These are the people it is easiest to help, with transitional housing, shelters, hygiene facilities, counseling, etc.

The hard core population of the mentally ill and substance abusers present a much harder problem.
   734. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:57 PM (#5531156)
Why are people homeless? Because they can't afford a home.


Wrong.

Because they're mentally ill, or because they're drug addled, or because they choose to be homeless rather than get a job -- or because, yes, they can't afford a home because they can't find a job despite trying and trying and trying. But, despite so much of the policy discussion focusing on that latter group, THAT is the group that is vanishingly small.
   735. Srul Itza Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:58 PM (#5531157)
Kindly explain this phenomenon


I read it in Wikipedia, so it must be true and it must explain everything.
   736. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:00 PM (#5531159)
What's your plan of action for the mentally ill class of homeless?
Just keep bussing em to SF; it's working fine so far, and soon enough the new transbay terminal will open and they won't be homeless anymore.
   737. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5531160)
If you have a family that's in a position to support you, you're probably not homeless.
You wouldn't think so... except that activists inflate the homelessness statistics by counting people who live with their friends or families as "homeless."
   738. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:05 PM (#5531161)
Gonna spend my time helping friends far worse off than me


Good on you. Stay safe out there.
   739. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5531162)
or because, yes, they can't afford a home because they can't find a job despite trying and trying and trying. But, despite so much of the policy discussion focusing on that latter group, THAT is the group that is vanishingly small.


What is your evidence that the latter group is "vanishingly small"? All the other statistics posted so far in the thread seem to suggest the opposite.
   740. Greg K Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5531163)
My only (detailed) experience with a homeless person was a friend of mine a few years ago. The immediate cause, as a teenager, was an abusive family member that domineered the rest of the family to the point that no one took her side. Homeless for a while, but then got a government agency to set her up with an apartment. But a 15 year old in an apartment with very little supervision led to what you might call poor decisions (though I'm sure most 15 year olds in that position would make a few). At a certain point, homelessness was safer than staying there.

She's landed on her feet now...as she's quite intelligent and hard-working she eventually got a pretty good job (though it took quite a while to get her foot in the door).

The conclusions I've extrapolated from this sample size of one is that family plays a pretty important role in stories of homelessness. And that you can't always count on having a family that has your back.
   741. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5531164)
Now, a lot of crusties are assuredly drug addicts and had terrible upbringings and such, but there remains a clear cultural attraction to the lifestyle, and I betcha that many of these types started out at age 15 reading On The Road in their suburban homes.

Please Kill Me

And whenever I tried to put on the records I liked, everybody thought I was so adolescent. You know, immature and freaky.

But I was thinking, 'Why?' Just because I like good music? Just because I'm trying to turn you on to good rock and roll? I'm trying to get through to you and you think I'm flaky? Well, I think you're bourgeois, and I don't like you. Bye."
   742. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5531165)

I read it in Wikipedia, so it must be true and it must explain everything.


Weak response. It's not like they're hiding or anything. I guess they haven't hitchhiked to Hawaii yet for some reason.
   743. Greg K Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5531166)
Also lived for a while with a guy who worked at a group home for teenagers. Mostly from abusive homes that had nowhere else to live. I imagine, despite everyone's best efforts, there were adult homeless outcomes there.
   744. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:16 PM (#5531170)
I read it in Wikipedia, so it must be true and it must explain everything

Youve been living on an island too long.
   745. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:28 PM (#5531173)
Theres a guy outside the warehouse I work from whose been living in his car the past month or two, though he finally got it mobile a couple weeks ago.

My response was the typical liberal one, but a coworker said you have to want to not be homeless, that a week one time in a tent was enough for him.

Even if its true our lives are largely determined by accident of birth, youve got to let adults be adults until they prove they are of real danger to themselves or others. Let people live out on the streets if they want, especially able-bodied youngsters. Its still a free country for another day or two.

   746. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:30 PM (#5531174)
r/vagabond is a goldmine:

whenever I usually hitchhike around, I do so after a bit of saving up, I keep enough for an emergency greyhound, food, etc ... I've started to realize though my wanderlust is getting a bit stronger than my will to keep working, and I'd like to at least /try/ a more long-term gig on the road, surviving on made-as-is income instead of saved up cash.
Basically, I just want a little info from people with experience, is panhandling / begging on the streetside enough to get my daily meals, maybe a few commodities like replacement tarps, pay a phone bill, etc? Or will I sort of have to be job-hunting for farm/cannery/etc work to get by on that kind of deal?


Panhandling as income?

(Also I like the "cannery" detail ... the young man has been reading his Steinbeck.)
   747. Traderdave Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:31 PM (#5531175)
Just keep bussing em to SF; it's working fine so far, and soon enough the new transbay terminal will open and they won't be homeless anymore.



Details fail me because it's been a number of years, but I recall an article in the Chronic Lie about a new program in San Francisco to help get homeless people back to their hometowns, as the great majority were not from SF.

The article mentioned that the success rate was surprisingly low. Many of the takers simply treated it as a vacation visit back home and were soon back on the street in SF.

   748. zenbitz Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:32 PM (#5531176)
Does he suck at his job? Does he suck at identifying what the cause of the problem is and how to address it? Does he fail to understand the limitations of government?


Hey, at least he isn't banning soda.
LA is probably both one of the worst and best places to be homeless. Best because the weather, worst because lack of foot traffic and inability to get anywhere by anything other than automobile.

Classical (80s) Republican solution: Declare cars "mobile homes".
   749. zenbitz Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:42 PM (#5531180)
Do you think the $138 million LA has allocated to the problem over two years just fell out of a tree?


Well they have all that left over scratch from taxing illegal immigrants (sales tax there is at least 3% over CA state). Also, this is less than 1% of the city budget of $9.2B/year. Finally - I have no idea if this is a good use of LA's budget BECAUSE I DON'T LIVE THERE. If the fine citizens of LA think this is a waste of money, they can elect someone else...

   750. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:45 PM (#5531181)
737...keep squeezing that nickel DMN. Maybe it will become a dime.
   751. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5531183)
Panhandling as income?

Read on down. Theres a code of ethics to it.
   752. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:53 PM (#5531186)
Read on down. Theres a code of ethics to it.


I did. It's all very interesting. I doubt that there is a consistent code of ethics, and the point should be clear - some people in this subculture are begging not out of desperation but in order to facilitate their chosen lifestyle. It's not even a matter of speculation, there's open discussion of this, free for all to see. This is why I leaped to RDP's defense ... I get that the base assumption should be "RDP = callous presumptuous dick" but in this case he was right.
   753. GordonShumway Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:53 PM (#5531187)
Hey, at least he isn't banning soda.
LA is probably both one of the worst and best places to be homeless. Best because the weather, worst because lack of foot traffic and inability to get anywhere by anything other than automobile.

Classical (80s) Republican solution: Declare cars "mobile homes".

Fixed.
   754. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 06:57 PM (#5531189)
Um, aren't those all pretty much the same thing?


No. They are not. It is really funny that King Pedant is claiming they are the same. Excuse me "pretty much" the same.

(2) unemployment


Being unemployed. Not having a job.

(3) poverty


Not having money. Being extremely poor. Not the same as being unemployed. One can be employed and be in poverty AND one can be unemployed and not be in poverty.

(4) low wages


This is very different than (2), because you know if you are unemployed you have no wages, not low wages. There is a difference between low and none. Also not the same as poverty (if in doubt see above).


EDIT: They are all related, but they are NOT the same thing. And even if they were, that doesn't address the Ray assertion that it is really all Mental Illness (about which I guess we can do nothing, for reasons, the best reasons, and especially nothing to do with government or his tax dollars).
   755. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:02 PM (#5531191)
But the point is clear - some people in this subculture are begging not out of desperation but in order to facilitate their chosen lifestyle

Some people is carrying too much water here. There are def organized panhandlers, but as one guy replied, theyre druggies, and panhandling for cash is last resort.

I never give money to those people.

Thr smart thing is to evaluate individuals case to case. There are a variety of subcultures in play here, certainly. Im the lawyer for those for whom it is a conscious choice.
   756. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:04 PM (#5531193)
But, despite so much of the policy discussion focusing on that latter group, THAT is the group that is vanishingly small.


Do you have any ... you know ... evidence?

You made fun of the top three Google search sources*, but have failed to provide ANY sources we should trust. Well Ray, can you link to a source you trust? That would really help out the discussion if you could.

* Which is fine, of course. Where something ranks in a Google search is hardly dispositive. However, looking over the following links ... they pretty much all say the same stuff. So I guess this is all just the Cathedral hiding the obvious and tricking us all. Like with Global warming and Race science. Amazing how deep the conspiracy goes.
   757. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5531194)
I don't have a tribe here.


Note: I am still not reading the endless TGF war about ... no clue honestly. But scanning through the thread looking for homeless comments I missed while commuting home and other such tasks I saw the quoted line. Honestly I find it kind of sad.

Dude has been posting here for years. And he has no one. I have plenty of people here that I consider at least internet friends and other who I have met in real life and consider friends. And it is not just those that agree with me. I have some disagreements with Andy and many with Jason, but I have thoroughly enjoyed my discussions with them and meeting them. Despite many vigorous arguments I value David and Rickey! and would love to meet them in real life, and that is just four people who have commented here in this thread today.*

I can't imagine commenting in a community like this for years and saying that there was no one in my tribe, no one I cared about to impress, keep the good opinion of, no one with ties to me or my affections.

One of the things I love about this site is the community. The fact that I care about the Greg's (Baker and Scholar) despite the fact they are in Canada and I may never meet them, I care that Misirlou is OK, and on and on and on.

If I didn't have that sense of community, if I didn't care about the people here I wouldn't bother posting here. I have no idea why one would post and so definitely exclude themselves from the community aspects of it all. But hey, to each there own.

And yes, for the record I am glad TGF posts here, because he offers a perspective that while I find it loathsome, it is valuable to see an example of it.

* If you are reading this and sad you are not mentioned, yes I likely want to meet you too. There are only a very few posters here I have no interest in meeting.
   758. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:16 PM (#5531195)
EDIT: They are all related, but they are NOT the same thing. And even if they were, that doesn't address the Ray assertion that it is really all Mental Illness (about which I guess we can do nothing, for reasons, the best reasons, and especially nothing to do with government or his tax dollars).


This bears no relation to my argument.
   759. Omineca Greg Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:28 PM (#5531198)
Again, my experiences with homeless people are going to be different than anybody else's here.

The vast majority of the homeless in the Omineca are First Nations people that have have come here from smaller communities in Northern BC. You'd laugh if you saw it, but to a lot of people this is a big city, and when they want to shake off that little town dust, they come here.

There's a lot of substance abuse, a little mental illness too. But the long and short of it is, nobody wants to hire these people. I wouldn't say they're unemployable, but as an employer you would be taking on a bigger risk that something could go wrong. So nobody hires them...if they have a choice. The jobs they can get pay marginally more than they get on SA, that small sliver of extra pay isn't worth it a lot of the time. Only if they were in line for better paying jobs would working be worth it, so a lot of time they don't even start.

I had an employee who was Cree, after a few years of working with us, she decided to go back to the rez. She was a good person, I liked her...she had issues. Substance abuse, mental illness, been molested as a child. Overall, I would consider her a good employee, but I could see where some employers might think otherwise. There were extra things I had to do on her behalf. Let's leave it at that.

So, when she quit, and went to go back to the rez, she sat down and talked to me...I'll leave out her kind words to me, but she appreciated what I had done for her, she was quite effusive in her praise. Which made me happy, because, indeed, it hadn't been easy. And this is what she said.

Greg, you're white, so you won't get it, but you listen so much better than most white people, so I'll tell you honestly how I feel. It feels like a step backwards, going back to the rez. All I'm going to do is drink beer, smoke weed, eat chips, and wait for the SA cheque to come. So that's bad. But that's how I was brought up. The world you whites have built, it's good, it's a good world, where even someone like me can make a good living...

But it's cold. You don't know how cold it is, because it's all you've ever known, so to you it's normal. But I've been brought up on the rez, I have so many friends, and aunties and uncles and elders, and people I've known from when I was born, and I'm going to know them until they die, and I know everybody being born is going to know me, from when they can first remember, until I die. So I'll never be alone. Ever. And one day, I'll be an elder, and I know people will take care of me, no matter what. Your world is short on "no matter what." So that's why I'm going back, and I know some people will think I'm just a dumb, drunk native. And part of me is ashamed. But part of me is ashamed to be ashamed, because it's who I am. And it will be good there, to be there again.


So then she starts crying, and I start crying...it was quite the scene.

Anyway, I don't know anything about crusties, or homeless in the big urban centres. But I have some clue what homeless people face here. A foreign culture, a world, if not exactly exclusionary, is a little harder going than if you belong to the majority group. And even when they catch a lucky break, and aren't homeless anymore, things are never quite perfectly in tune. And, yes, a lot of them make poor lifestyle choices. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be supportive, and do what I can to help. And to understand that it's not fair to throw up roadblocks (even unwittingly) to success, and ##### when people fail. I don't know how applicable that is to other places, and other people, but...those experiences inform my worldview.
   760. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:33 PM (#5531199)
SAY HULLO TO THE BAD GUY, eh TGF?
   761. Howie Menckel Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:36 PM (#5531201)
in case some are just arriving (like I was) and won't be trying to catch up, we had some excellent news a couple of hours ago:

725. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 05:42 PM (#5531146)
Hey everybody. I just got cell service at my house. I returned from exile yesterday afternoon and have been incommunicado since. I'm fine, my house is fine, just a real mess in the yard. Lost a lot of trees and parts of trees. Don't believe reports of 90% of the homes in the keys being destroyed or significantly damaged. Maybe on some islands, but far from county wide. No internet yet, so I'm on my phone which is a pain. I'll check in as time allows. Gonna spend my time helping friends far worse off than me
   762. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:37 PM (#5531202)
Boy is my timing bad. Very nice 759 greg.
   763. PepTech Posted: September 13, 2017 at 07:37 PM (#5531203)
This bears no relation to my argument.
Great.

So instead of just saying that, maybe say WHY it doesn't, or make your argument better so that people don't have to flail around and guess. Because then the flail-around-guessing conversation precludes (maybe I should say "refuses to ALLOW") the original argument from proceeding. Unless you'd rather just complain about how debates don't get anywhere, and feel superior.

Or how about this - if the sidebar doesn't relate to your argument, then just don't comment on it at all. Doing so in the manner you affect comes across as snooty. If you *know* that already, you're doing it on purpose, which would be dickish. If you *didn't* know that already, you should.
   764. Srul Itza Posted: September 13, 2017 at 08:01 PM (#5531216)
I did. It's all very interesting. I doubt that there is a consistent code of ethics, and the point should be clear - some people in this subculture are begging not out of desperation but in order to facilitate their chosen lifestyle. It's not even a matter of speculation, there's open discussion of this, free for all to see. This is why I leaped to RDP's defense ... I get that the base assumption should be "RDP = callous presumptuous dick" but in this case he was right.


How many of them are there?

What percentage of the homeless do they make up?
   765. BDC Posted: September 13, 2017 at 08:19 PM (#5531220)
In addition to homelessness, of course, there's substandard housing. I mentioned upthread being truly poor for a year recently - my apartment had broken windows; when I moved in there was a new carpet, but come to find the building had ancient water heaters; my neighbor's flooded, my new carpet did too, mold set in. Bathroom fixtures were decrepit, kitchen always hitting on less than all cylinders, so to speak. Very hard to get management to fix things, and at the hilariously low rent you could see why. Neighbors were nice but odd. Not all there mentally sometimes. Drunkenness and noises at night. There was a guy shot dead on the street there last year.

And it was *comfortable*. I was out of ####s to give and had no property worth stealing. It was a fine year for me. And I could see my way out of it. Imagine every aspect being worse, and no prospect for improvement, and you start to get the picture of some American lives.

I revise my upthread estimate, too. I lived on $18K that year, no dependents. I was *not* badly off.
   766. Greg K Posted: September 13, 2017 at 08:37 PM (#5531226)
And it was *comfortable*. I was out of ####s to give and had no property worth stealing. It was a fine year for me. And I could see my way out of it. Imagine every aspect being worse, and no prospect for improvement, and you start to get the picture of some American lives.

One can't help but be reminded of Pulp's "Common People".
   767. Omineca Greg Posted: September 13, 2017 at 08:50 PM (#5531228)
One can't help but be reminded of Pulp's "Common People".

What kind of Trekkie are you that doesn't say William Shatner's "Common People"?

Great song. Great song. By the time it had come out, I had already figured out that with my supportive and reasonably well-off family, I could never know poverty, no matter how little I was earning, or what my expenses were. But in case I hadn't, that song would have made it clear.
   768. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 08:56 PM (#5531232)

How many of them are there?

What percentage of the homeless do they make up?


Is this where I type "concession accepted?"

I doubt there are many of these vagabonds. They're seemingly omnipresent in certain parts of certain neighborhoods of certain cities, and almost nonexistent anywhere else. I'm certainly not trying to argue that they represent some big issue in our culture. I don't think Ray even was. Ray, I think, had some point about how "the left" was trying to be stupidly charitable (with the free phone chargers on the street) and ended up giving yet another gift to the professional layabouts. That's not my point at all - I was only arguing the narrow facts of these freespirited hobo losers.
   769. Lassus Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5531236)
I get that the base assumption should be "RDP = callous presumptuous dick" but in this case he was right.

PF, considering that I find you one of the most reasonable human beings on the site (not that you should care about that), I'll be glad to disagree but discuss.

If I'm going to accept your view of Ray's rightness in this discussion, I need to understand in your opinion who in this passage
People who lose their jobs and are of sound mind don't turn to a state of hardened perpetual homelessness. If they can't pay the rent even after collecting unemployment and downsizing temporarily they get financial assistance from family or friends; or they move in with family or friends temporarily; or they crash on a couch for a couple of weeks. If they don't have those resources available to them they try for other solutions. Absolutely last on the list would be to live on the street and beg for money. But even there, magically turning up all looking the same, with the mangy dog and the leather jacket all tatted and bearded up is quite the coincidence.
the bolded "all" refers to.

Because in my reading there is nothing there that pulls out a particular brand of homeless. It's an overall statement.
   770. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:26 PM (#5531238)
PF's got me reading /r/Vagabond now. Fascinating.
   771. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5531241)
Lassus, I answered that above, in comment #580.

"All" must refer only to the crusty types - the ones with leather jackets and tattoos and mangy dogs. Ray's point, I believe, is that they would not have a cohesive and immediately recognizable fashion style if they were in fact just sad people that were really down on their luck. It proves that they are not hapless victims of circumstance. They share a cultural identity. (For example, if by some series of tragedies I found myself out on the street, I wouldn't suddenly adopt a pit bull and grow dreadlocks and pierce my septum - promise. I do already have a beard though.)

And next paragraph makes it clear that he's talking about a subset of homeless, not all homeless.

It's sloppy writing, I'll give you that.
   772. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5531243)
There's apparently a subset of hobo called digital nomad, which seems like you're half hobo, half roving IT consultant.
   773. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5531247)
PF, considering that I find you one of the most reasonable human beings on the site (not that you should care about that)


Also, I do care, and I thank you for the compliment. JE paid me the same compliment recently. If I can charm both sides I'm doing something right.
   774. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5531249)
There's apparently a subset of hobo called digital nomad, which seems like you're half hobo, half roving IT consultant.


Oh, this is a whole thing. You move to Chiang Mai and you make Silicon Valley bucks while spending like $400 a month on rent and eating mangosteens and dating girls that would be out of your league in America. Has nothing to do with train-riding hobos though, these guys presumably shower from time to time. It's freespirited in a sense but the digital nomads are harnessing technology and capitalism and globalism in order to get the most out of life, whereas the crusties, I dunno, they seem to have entirely opted out of modern life. I think they're pretty much opposites. Digital nomads have more in common with retirees in RVs, I would think.
   775. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:39 PM (#5531251)

Oh, this is a whole thing. You move to Chiang Mai and you make Silicon Valley bucks while spending like $400 a month on rent and eating unlimited tropical fruits and dating girls that would be out of your league in America. Has nothing to do with train-riding hobos though, these guys presumably shower at least from time to time.


That's why I said half-hobo! It's all very interesting stuff. I've never lived in an area with the hipster hobo transients, so I'm reading up on all this now. Not really for me, though technically, I could probably still work just fine as a drifter. Hobometrician?
   776. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:47 PM (#5531254)
Digital Dandy and Hobometrician? Some folks have it all.
   777. Lassus Posted: September 13, 2017 at 09:52 PM (#5531258)
And next paragraph makes it clear that he's talking about a subset of homeless, not all homeless.
It's sloppy writing, I'll give you that.


I have to disagree. In that case his point ended up being that a subset of homeless who all look alike conveniently all look alike. That's ridiculous enough to me that I can't find it's his original intent.

I've been reading Ray on the homeless for years. He thinks overall that it's a bootstrap/laziness problem. That he would all of a sudden single out a group of about 5% of the homeless population does not strike me as what he was doing. And if he was, it's pointless, as it's absolutely a ridiculously small subset of the homeless population.
   778. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5531266)
Well. Perhaps He will condescend to let us unworthies know His meaning.
   779. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2017 at 10:05 PM (#5531267)
DJS, I have little kids and as such am somewhat stuck providing them with a stable upbringing. But if I were not, that digital nomad lifestyle would be immensely appealing. I work from home a bit now and I'm constantly thinking "I could be on the beach in Bali doing this."
   780. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5531270)
Today in the Drudge Report's normal and un-obsessive Hillary coverage, this full headline:
Hillary Clinton demonstrates 'alternate nostril breathing' during interview...

Naturally she needs to use calming breathing techniques. Her new book's just been marked down 40% by Amazon!

Tune in tomorrow for the next utterly sensible update on America's most fascinating civilian, on the Drudge Report.
   781. Morty Causa Posted: September 13, 2017 at 10:42 PM (#5531278)
I've known a good many street people through the last 20 years or so, both because of my profession and otherwise. My conclusions (without casting judgment): most homeless persons are deep into substance abuse and took to the street because of that. Many have serious mental problems, true, but a lot of that is caused or exacerbated by substance abuse. And as long as they are mired in that substance abuse, there's little hope for them. It's just a matter time and playing out the string. Furthermore, substance abuse when it reaches the state most of those people are in is extraordinarily difficult to recover from long-term.
   782. Morty Causa Posted: September 13, 2017 at 10:53 PM (#5531279)
Bernie Sanders’ Big Single-Payer Proposal Skips Over the Hardest Thing About Single Payer

A balanced and well-considered critique of Sanders's Medicare for all plan. But, then, all government programs come down to how they will be paid for.
   783. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:16 PM (#5531285)
Many have serious mental problems, true, but a lot of that is caused or exacerbated by substance abuse.


One thing I have discovered over the years - people I have known - is that many people with mental health issues essentially self medicate with illegal drugs, which leads directly to substance abuse.

But I agree there are many reasons to be homeless. A huge percent is mental illness and substance abuse, but not all, and still I think the government can and should do much more for them than it is.
   784. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:21 PM (#5531289)
Lassus, I answered that above, in comment #580.

"All" must refer only to the crusty types - the ones with leather jackets and tattoos and mangy dogs. Ray's point, I believe, is that they would not have a cohesive and immediately recognizable fashion style if they were in fact just sad people that were really down on their luck. It proves that they are not hapless victims of circumstance. They share a cultural identity. (For example, if by some series of tragedies I found myself out on the street, I wouldn't suddenly adopt a pit bull and grow dreadlocks and pierce my septum - promise. I do already have a beard though.)


Exactly. My position here is not difficult to understand, for any reasonable person. One may disagree with it, but claiming that it's oh so hard to figure out is a bit much. Misrepresenting it, as some have, is a lot much.
   785. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:29 PM (#5531292)
I have to disagree. In that case his point ended up being that a subset of homeless who all look alike conveniently all look alike. That's ridiculous enough to me that I can't find it's his original intent.

I've been reading Ray on the homeless for years. He thinks overall that it's a bootstrap/laziness problem. That he would all of a sudden single out a group of about 5% of the homeless population does not strike me as what he was doing. And if he was, it's pointless, as it's absolutely a ridiculously small subset of the homeless population.


Simply a misrepresentation. I have stated over and over again, including on the last couple of pages, my belief that the homelessness problem is mainly a mental illness problem. Second is drug abuse. Third is hipster homeless. Fourth are the category that people obsess over as if they make up 95% of homeless people: in this group are people who really ARE down on their luck, are not mentally ill, do not have a substance abuse problem, have tried, tried, tried, but still can't find a job.

Most of the people in the fourth group aren't actually on the streets at all, as they're taken in or supported by friends or family temporarily, or they rig some other temporary fix -- such as selling their house -- and they're unemployed for a few months and then they land on their feet again.

There is zero reason in 2017 America that someone who is of able mind and body should be unemployed (which means has no job but actively looking or one) for years on end, unless one simply has made poor decisions all down the line.
   786. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:33 PM (#5531294)
Bernie Sanders’ Big Single-Payer Proposal Skips Over the Hardest Thing About Single Payer


Mark Steyn:

"Bernie is plowing on now to try to introduce socialized health care in America, because to him health care in America isn't wrecked enough, so he'd like to take it to the next level."
   787. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:34 PM (#5531295)

And while I'm at it, here's Steyn on Hillary's Defeat Tour:

"It's beginning to remind me of OJ hunting for the real killers. The wider she looks for the real killers of her campaign, the more you suspect -- and in fact the more your view is confirmed -- that the answer is closer to home, and considerably closer to home."
   788. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:43 PM (#5531300)
"It's beginning to remind me of OJ hunting for the real killers. The wider she looks for the real killers of her campaign, the more you suspect -- and in fact the more your view is confirmed -- that the answer is closer to home, and considerably closer to home."

So, Hillary is going to blame Bill next?
   789. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:43 PM (#5531301)
And Steyn, with a point I made many times:

"Actually, one of the things that Trump did that was incredibly useful is that he destroyed all of the boring tedious conventions of professional American politics that resulted in the year 2016 in one party offering the wife of a previous president and the other party offering the son and the brother of two previous presidents. And that ought to be unseemly in a republic of 300 million people. And she should have known this, and Jeb Bush should have known this. Your husband was president. That's enough. Clear out. Go to Martha's Vineyard. Go to the Bahamas. Clear off. Get out of here. And the same for Jeb Bush too. Your dad was president, and your brother was president. And they weren't so indispensable that we need a third one. Clear off, you creeps. That's unseemly in a republic."

   790. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 13, 2017 at 11:55 PM (#5531305)
So, Hillary is going to blame Bill next?


Heh.

Think of her message, though. Essentially it's "If you didn't vote for me, you're a sexist. Or you're a bigot. Or you were hoodwinked by Russia. Or you were hoodwinked by Comey. Or you were hoodwinked by the media." She doesn't hold open the possibility of a reasonable person not voting for her. It's yet another reason in a long line of them why Trump was preferable to her.

Did Trump ever claim, "If you don't vote for me, you're an [insert bad person]?" No, he never did. He always asked people for their votes. He never said that no reasonable person wouldn't vote for him, or slandered them as deplorable if they didn't.
   791. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:38 AM (#5531310)
my belief that the homelessness problem is mainly a mental illness problem. Second is drug abuse.

Well, that's wrong, you have one and two reversed.
According to the 2010 SAMHSA report:[136]

26.2% of all sheltered persons who were homeless had a severe mental illness
About 30% of people who are chronically homeless have mental health conditions.

34.7% of all sheltered adults who were homeless had chronic substance abuse issues
About 50% of people who are chronically homeless co-occurring substance abuse problems.



Third is hipster homeless.

This contention is less wrong than actually insane:
2 percent earned money by peddling or selling personal belongings.



Fourth are the category that people obsess over as if they make up 95% of homeless people: in this group are people who really ARE down on their luck, are not mentally ill, do not have a substance abuse problem, have tried, tried, tried, but still can't find a job. Most of the people in the fourth group aren't actually on the streets at all, as they're taken in or supported by friends or family temporarily, or they rig some other temporary fix -- such as selling their house -- and they're unemployed for a few months and then they land on their feet again. There is zero reason in 2017 America that someone who is of able mind and body should be unemployed (which means has no job but actively looking or one) for years on end, unless one simply has made poor decisions all down the line.

This is ludicrous:
A 2010 longitudinal study of homeless men conducted in Birmingham, Alabama, found that most earned an average of ninety dollars per week while working an average of thirty hours per week.

The theory that the chosen, young, free-wheeling hipster homeless numbers somehow beat out the working or unworking-but-looking homeless is totally batshit.

1.37 million (or 39%) of the total homeless population are children under the age of 18.
If only they’d made better decisions.
   792. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5531314)
Did Trump ever claim, "If you don't vote for me, you're an [insert bad person]?" No, he never did. He always asked people for their votes. He never said that no reasonable person wouldn't vote for him, or slandered them as deplorable if they didn't.


Oh really?
"If you really like Donald Trump, that's great, but if you don't, you have to vote for me anyway. You know why? Supreme Court judges, Supreme Court judges," Trump said at a rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

"Have no choice, sorry, sorry, sorry. You have no choice,"


“Look at that face! Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?!”


“How stupid are the people of Iowa? How stupid are the people of the country to believe this crap?”


   793. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:55 AM (#5531315)
Did Trump ever claim, "If you don't vote for me, you're an [insert bad person]?" No, he never did. ...He never slandered them as deplorable if they didn't [vote for him].


No, he just said that millions of Hillary Clinton voters were criminals and illegals, who rigged the election against him by committing massive voter fraud. And then he kept saying it.
   794. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 03:25 AM (#5531317)
#759 is pretty great. Quality share, Greg.
   795. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 03:54 AM (#5531318)
Bernie Sanders’ Big Single-Payer Proposal Skips Over the Hardest Thing About Single Payer

A balanced and well-considered critique of Sanders's Medicare for all plan. But, then, all government programs come down to how they will be paid for.
All he has to do is agree to call it TrumpCare, and he'll win the president's support for it and all the necessary tax hikes.
   796. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 04:12 AM (#5531319)
Actually, one of the things that Trump did that was incredibly useful is that he destroyed all of the boring tedious conventions of professional American politics that resulted in the year 2016 in one party offering the wife of a previous president and the other party offering the son and the brother of two previous presidents. And that ought to be unseemly in a republic of 300 million people.


So instead, it went to a wealthy, unqualified oligarch with long-standing connections to organized crime, who was actively backed by a hostile foreign government.

There are lots of "republics" that do that sort of thing, but they usually have "banana" appended to the front of that descriptor. Maybe MAGA stands for Make America Guatemala Again?
   797. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 04:18 AM (#5531320)
Mark Steyn:

"Bernie is plowing on now to try to introduce socialized health care in America, because to him health care in America isn't wrecked enough, so he'd like to take it to the next level."


It's certainly nice of Steyn to lay his cards on the table like that w/r/t class warfare, by outright stating that moving from a model where millions of poor people are forced to do without basic health care because they can't afford it to a model where a few rich people would have less money would "wreck" things.
   798. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2017 at 06:10 AM (#5531322)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.
   799. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 06:40 AM (#5531323)
And Steyn, with a point I made many times:


Did he make that point in 2000? I only recall his eager performance as Dubya's enthusiastic cockholster after the election. He was quite fond of the argument that opposing the Great War of Adventure in Iraq made you a terrorist-sympathizer.
   800. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 06:46 AM (#5531324)
I think it's fair to say that one does not get a complete view of homelessness merely by walking to and from one's office from the subway stop.
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