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Monday, September 11, 2017

OTP 11 September 2017: Hurricane Irma wreaking havoc on minor league baseball playoffs

There are 18 minor league affiliations that play playoffs every season, and those playoffs all have different formats – some with one wild card, some with split first-half/second-half winners, some with a required 8-10 team playoff grouping. This season, the issues caused by Hurricane Irma will lead to 3 of those 18 championships being cancelled and turned into co-champions.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:54 AM | 1783 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: minor league baseball, minor leagues, playoffs, politics

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   801. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 06:54 AM (#5531325)
So anyway, Lassus' misinterpretation of RDP's words was kind of my point. I think what Ray wrote was very clear. Lassus thought that my reading was superficial because I wasn't considering years of evidence of Ray's beliefs on homelessness. But in fact, I was right. Lassus looked past what Ray actually wrote because he thought he could read Ray's mind.

Every time on this thread people don't engage with the actual words on the screen, and instead make assumptions about intent, the discussion goes off the rails.
   802. simon bedford Posted: September 14, 2017 at 07:03 AM (#5531328)
Rays position seems to be "people who choose to be homeless are weird hipsters I dont like and I have gathered all my evidence by walking past some people that I assume are homeless but I did not bother to engage them at all."
His actual words dont contain any deep analyst or actual facts or experiences beyond "Boy these voluntary homeless neck beards really annoy me."
   803. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 07:27 AM (#5531332)
I think it's fair to say that one does not get a complete view of homelessness merely by walking to and from one's office from the subway stop


Yeah you have to add a law degree.
   804. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 07:56 AM (#5531334)
A lesson for all you pampered, insulated fancy lads.. No, this is a completely different redneck, I don't have tattoos on my hands.
   805. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 07:57 AM (#5531335)
According to the 2010 SAMHSA report:[136]


More "hilarious" sources. You are falling for the trap of "Big Homeless" like so many liberals. You can't trust any organization that ... you know ... works with, cares about, or tries to understand the homeless, because you KNOW they are biased. You have to use Ray's source. The one that tells him the real and unvarnished truth about the homeless. That is the only true unbiased source my man.
   806. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:12 AM (#5531337)
But in fact, I was right. Lassus looked past what Ray actually wrote because he thought he could read Ray's mind.

I wasn't reading Ray's mind, but his posts.

But I see evidence on page six that my interactions with Ray's posts could use improvement. I did look past his crusty problem - which was, as stated, no real problem at all - to his overall mistakes about the varied homeless populations that he considers facts, as stated in #780-whatever.

Ray's overall summary of the homeless problem is so badly out of whack that his troubles with the homeless hipster hobos especially grates, and I should have thought better of making it an issue in response. Granted and noted.
   807. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:18 AM (#5531340)
I dont think of OTP as a tribe. More like a pack
   808. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:19 AM (#5531341)
I think Ray's failure, as ever, is his inability to see complexity. Of course there are real stark raving mad homeless men howling in the street, and there are also good men crushed by ill fortune that are doing their damned best to put their lives back together. But these are not discrete categories, there are tens of thousands of people that fall somewhere in between. There are many homeless that are on and off the street, or in and out of shelters, depending on their day-to-day circumstances. There are many degrees of disability due to mental illness and substance abuse. There are many people that fall back on homelessness because it's all they've known. How many homeless people do you think had a stable emotional upbringing? Ray's dichotomy (I feel sorry for the crazies, but the other guys need to get a ###### job) is false. Even the hipster homeless are more complex than I've portrayed them - many have drug issues, and many, I would bet, are coming from profoundly chaotic upbringings, and they spend so much time in and around the regular homeless crowd that there is bound to be mixing and blending.
   809. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:21 AM (#5531342)
You can't trust any organization that ... you know ...

... has a financial interest in ensuring
the problem never goes away?
   810. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:22 AM (#5531344)
I don't see the evidence of this, and I believe you are wrong both about myself and about Ray. Not as wrong as Ray, mind you.

I don't see how I'm wrong. Ray validated my interpretation of what he said, which you had disregarded because you brought in extratextual evidence.

edit > just saw your edits
   811. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:27 AM (#5531346)
I don't have tattoos on my hands.

No scars from a fight?

Last night I was unloading freight when I noticed my coworker walk over and grab the six foot dock plate pole and walk to the other bay, which I thought was odd because we have only one built in plate.

What I didnt know yet was that one of the truck drivers had flashed a knife and threatened to #### him up.

Somebody has a knot on his head this morning.
   812. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:30 AM (#5531349)
Every time on this thread people don't engage with the actual words on the screen, and instead make assumptions about intent, the discussion goes off the rails.

Dont you want to be a good person?
   813. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:33 AM (#5531350)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.

Who lives longer on average, rock stars or NFL vets?

Time hurts
   814. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:35 AM (#5531351)
I don't see how I'm wrong. Ray validated my interpretation of what he said, which you had disregarded because you brought in extratextual evidence.


If only Ray were as generous as you are in reading what people say with an eye towards what they mean and then accepting unreservedly when they clarify what they meant. Generally when I clarify a statement of mine I get called a liar by Ray (note: Ray is hardly the only one who does this and obvious it is not just me that gets called a liar for explaining what was meant).

Still, you are a good example and one Ray and others would do well to emulate.
   815. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:37 AM (#5531352)
Update from another angle on the ongoing Republican civil war - Bannon’s Oligarch Cage Match Worries GOP

As Republican leaders fret over a possible loss of control of the Senate due to Bannon’s actions, they fail to notice that Bannon is not playing a short-term game for GOP majorities in Congress. Bannon’s game is one for control of the Republican Party writ large.

It’s clear that Mercer has no small amount of envy for the Koch brothers, the billionaire siblings whose will has largely shaped the GOP agenda as the party became ever more dependent on the political infrastructure built by the Kochs and the donor network they have cultivated over the course of decades. No longer insurgents, the Kochs and their political beneficiaries have become part of the GOP establishment. House Speaker Paul Ryan, whose career got a mighty boost from the Koch-founded Americans For Prosperity (AFP), is a case in point. Ryan, along with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, are now tasked with the realities of governing, which often leads them to make decisions that are at odds with the president’s whims. And that makes them, and some of the incumbents they hope to re-elect, the focus of right-wing ire.

Bannon and his patron Mercer, it seems, are willing to take their chances on the possible loss of the GOP’s narrow Senate majority if the gambit places Mercer in the kingmaker’s seat, supplanting the Koch brothers in that role. But there’s a fly in that ointment, for nearly all Republican lawmakers depend on the Koch brothers’ political apparatus in order to win re-election, especially the get-out-the-vote operations of Americans For Prosperity, and the data firm i360. Bannon seems to be betting that AFP will turn out the vote for any Republican who runs for the Senate, including the neo-theocrat Roy Moore, whom Bannon is backing against Strange in the Alabama Republican primary.


Bring your own popcorn and enjoy the show as it unfolds over the next few months.
   816. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5531353)
In related news ... House GOP Worries About ‘Mass Exodus’ Of Frustrated Members

It’s not much fun to be a House Republican these days. President Trump has repeatedly taken potshots at their conference. Primary challenges burble on the right. Congress has been unable to pass much meaningful legislation in spite of unified control of Washington. Every trip home means an earful both from liberals furious at their support of the president and conservatives irate they’re not doing enough to support his agenda. And members who haven’t seen real competition for years face tough races due to Trump’s deep unpopularity.

That weighs heavily on Republicans who are on the fence about returning.

“The jury may be out for some folks. … Some days it feels discouraging,” said Rep. Mark Amodei (R-NV), who told TPM he was likely to run for reelection but admitted his final decision in March was “a long ways away.”

“I can see where people would be discouraged as members of the majority when some days it seems like they’re fighting the Senate and sweeping generalizations even made by the administration that don’t even apply to the House,” he said, pointing to the failure of Obamacare repeal. “I don’t know of anybody who thinks that anything about election 2018 is going to be an easy walk. And Republicans love intramural [fighting], so there’s every reason to think there’s going to be a robust intramural period for some time.”
   817. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5531357)
If only Ray were as generous as you are in reading what people say with an eye towards what they mean and then accepting unreservedly when they clarify what they meant.


Oh, I'm aware. I think I said it several hundred comments ago, that funny enough, Ray is one of the worst on the board at this.
   818. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5531358)
the Koch brothers, the billionaire siblings whose will has largely shaped the GOP agenda
To be clear, this is crazy. I wish it were true, but it isn't remotely so. Every time a liberal talks about the Koch brothers, he should picture a conservative saying the exact same things, but about Soros. If it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory when said in that context, it's a crazy conspiracy theory for the liberal, too.
   819. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:50 AM (#5531360)

You move to Chiang Mai and you make Silicon Valley bucks while spending like $400 a month on rent and eating mangosteens and dating girls that would be out of your league jailbait in America.

   820. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5531361)
I don't have tattoos on my hands.

No scars from a fight?


Only one and it's small.

Heed the words of the bare-knuckle masters of yore - protect your fists with proper punching technique AND aiming for soft targets unlikely to cause injury to your tender hands - jaw, side of the neck, liver, solar plexus. Be smarter still and only use your striking to set up your submissions grappling, you don't break anything choking a man out.
   821. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:52 AM (#5531362)
I guess I'm capitalizing politically on a tragedy, ah well, so be it, the reciprocation of same has never been an issue of mine. In the men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them department:
Estranged Husband Killed Wife and 7 Friends During Dallas Cowboys Viewing Party: 'He Wasn't Moving On and She Was'

“It was officially ‘out with the old and in with the new,’” Debbie Lane told local news station WFAA. “It was her reclaiming her life, and she was thrilled to be doing that. It was the happiest she’d been in years. Years.”

“I think he saw our comfort, ease, and happiness… and her embracing new life, and resented it to the maximum and responded the way he did,” Debbie Lane told the news station.

“He was not moving on,” she said. “And she was.”
   822. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:52 AM (#5531363)
Every time a liberal talks about the Koch brothers, he should picture a conservative saying the exact same things, but about Soros.


The Koch Brothers aren't cool enough to be Jewish Nazis.
   823. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:54 AM (#5531365)
Estranged Husband Killed Wife and 7 Friends During Dallas Cowboys Viewing Party: 'He Wasn't Moving On and She Was'
Sheesh. I don't like the Cowboys either, but I wouldn't kill people just for refusing to stop rooting for them.
   824. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:55 AM (#5531367)
crazy conspiracy theory

Because theres zero evidence that billionaires and billion dollar corporations influence our politics?

Kinda hard to ignore the elephant in the White House.

   825. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5531368)
jailbait


That too.
   826. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:58 AM (#5531369)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.

Awful damn dusty in here all of a sudden.

############# ####.
   827. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 08:59 AM (#5531370)
Mental illness and drug abuse are certainly the biggest drivers of homelessness. Abusive relations probably drive the third (both romantic and familiar). Which is often why they can't easily resort to family/friends for shelter. Certainly the people I've known who've ever been homeless, it's been driven by one or more of those three factors. Voluntary hipster homelessness is something like the four hundred and thirty third cause of homelessness, just after being cursed by a gypsy woman.
   828. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:00 AM (#5531371)
In the men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them department:


It sounds clever, but men kill their wives today at about the rate women were killing their husbands when Peggy said it. I suppose she's good with a twist of phrase, but she's a better goalie - should've stuck with her day job.
   829. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:03 AM (#5531373)
It sounds clever, but men kill their wives today at about the rate women were killing their husbands

The quote doesn't say husbands and wives.
   830. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:03 AM (#5531374)
Every time a liberal talks about the Koch brothers, he should picture a conservative saying the exact same things, but about Soros.


Both sides, as in all things. There could never be any difference in tangible influence, to be sure. Black. White. Nuance is dead. Or something.

Seriously though, while the Koch brothers hardly "control" the GOP, their influence is orders of magnitude stronger in the GOP than Soros's is in the Democratic Party. Pretending otherwise doesn't make it so.

I do think it interesting that you wish the Koch brothers had even more power than they do. Personally I don't want any billionaire having more power than they already do within the Democratic Party, but maybe that is just me.
   831. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5531378)
It sounds clever, but men kill their wives today at about the rate women were killing their husbands


The idea that men kill women at the same rate women kill men is, of course, utter lunacy. Which is of course why you sensibly re-framed the quote in your statement. I am a man, I like men, no self hating here, but any analysis of data on violence makes it startlingly clear that the real people to be afraid of are not black or brown, rather they are men of all colors.

Side note: I have seen numerous mentions to a linkage between domestic violence and terrorism, which I think interesting (in a terrible way, to be clear). It doesn't surprise me that terrorists (who are largely, though not entirely male) have a predilection for domestic violence, but I have not seen any solid study or rock solid evidence to make the connection, so I am presenting it as anything other than something to think about and pay attention to going forward.
   832. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:15 AM (#5531382)
Seriously though, while the Koch brothers hardly "control" the GOP, their influence is orders of magnitude stronger in the GOP than Soros's is in the Democratic Party. Pretending otherwise doesn't make it so.
And asserting it doesn't make it so.

I do think it interesting that you wish the Koch brothers had even more power than they do.
That's... not quite what I said. I'm indifferent to the Koch brothers' personal power. What I wish is that the GOP agenda matched more closely the one they've been advocating.
   833. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:19 AM (#5531385)
Because theres zero evidence that billionaires and billion dollar corporations influence our politics?
Your grasp of nuance is exceedingly impressive... compared to SBB.
Kinda hard to ignore the elephant in the White House.
Given that he's diametrically opposed to everything the Kochs support, you probably shouldn't be trying to ignore him in this discussion.
   834. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5531387)
Certainly it's true that men kill women more often than women kill men. But like basically everything about gender, it's a factor of a couple, not the orders of magnitude it gets represented as. The overall drop in murder rate in the last fifty years means women back in the 70s were killing men at the rate men are killing women today (at least, in North America - I'd guess it's not true in Saudi Arabia, for instance).

But like basically everything about gender, it's a bit quantitatively different, but it's not qualitatively different.
   835. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:23 AM (#5531389)
Bannon’s Oligarch Cage Match Worries GOP


The way this year has gone, I'm only halfway surprised that headline isn't about some stupid bullshit with Ramzan Kadyrov.
   836. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:26 AM (#5531392)
It's also true if you generalise to men and women.

Your statistical statements are rather vague. Are you asserting that women kill men at the same rate/volume/percentage that men kill women? If that's the case I'd be interested to see those figures.

New post noted, doesn't really change my reply.

There's also an element of fear whereby when you're getting beaten or raped but still end up not killed by a man, you are actually afraid of being killed. The statement very specifically cites that fear, and the factor of women being beaten and/or raped by men simply ain't "a couple".
   837. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5531395)
To get hung up on Soros or Koch is to miss the forest for the trees.
   838. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:32 AM (#5531396)
Jesus. Lassus and BM, can either of you learn to read? He didn't say that men/husbands kill women/wives and w/w kill m/h at equal rates. He said that men kill women (now) at the same rate that women killed men when that pithy quote was first said.
   839. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5531397)
To get hung up on Soros or Koch is to miss the forest for the trees.
Pretty sure that my whole point was to tell people to stop getting so hung up on the Koch brothers.
   840. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5531401)
the factor of women being beaten by men simply ain't "a couple".


But actually, it is one third of women and a quarter of men experience domestic violence. A seventh of women and an eighteenth of men are severely injured by a partner (a factor of ~2.5 - i.e., "a couple") One in three women and one in twenty men who're murdered are murdered by a current or former sexual partner (and since men are murdered at about twice the rate women are - the rate men are murdered by girlfriends/wives is ~30% of the rate women are murdered by husbands/boyfriends - one can argue "a few" is closer than "a couple" here, I guess, if they're a pedant. But it's not night and day.)
   841. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 09:40 AM (#5531403)
Wait, BrianBrianson, did you use the word "couple" to mean "more or less two" in a sentence about men and women, boyfriends and girlfriends, husbands and wives? Hella confusing.
   842. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:01 AM (#5531412)
But actually, it is one third of women and a quarter of men experience domestic violence. A seventh of women and an eighteenth of men are severely injured by a partner (a factor of ~2.5 - i.e., "a couple") One in three women and one in twenty men who're murdered are murdered by a current or former sexual partner (and since men are murdered at about twice the rate women are - the rate men are murdered by girlfriends/wives is ~30% of the rate women are murdered by husbands/boyfriends - one can argue "a few" is closer than "a couple" here, I guess, if they're a pedant. But it's not night and day.)

Again, the quote does not refer to husbands, wives, or couples, or domestic violence. In fact, I have never thought of applying that quote that specifically.

I mean, I suppose I used the quote to refer to a story ABOUT a shooting of domestic origin, and if the generality I was applying was unclear, I will take responsibility for that.

Overall, women have far greater reason to fear for their lives from men than vice-versa. Seems odd to me to push back on that, but YMMV.


Jesus. Lassus and BM, can either of you learn to read?

Yes. I'm not sure why applying a quote to an event a few days ago requires a irrelevant (see the point regarding fear in #836) citation of violence in the 70s.
   843. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5531418)
Jesus. Lassus and BM, can either of you learn to read?


Can you? I addressed the shift from men and women to husbands and wives. You know, what happened in the thread. Strange that you think my specifically addressing an aspect of the relevant posts in your mind means I can't read, but OK.

And on that subject I think it silly to limit the discussion to killing, I think broadening it to violence is much more appropriate. And anyone who believes that men commit violence against women at the same rate and degree that women commit violence against men is a lunatic.
   844. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5531419)
Rays position seems to be "people who choose to be homeless are weird hipsters I dont like and I have gathered all my evidence by walking past some people that I assume are homeless but I did not bother to engage them at all."
His actual words dont contain any deep analyst or actual facts or experiences beyond "Boy these voluntary homeless neck beards really annoy me."


The fact that Simon Bedford thinks they're not now makes me think perhaps hipster homeless *are* a surprisingly large percentage of homeless.
   845. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5531422)
It's true males commit most violence and crime, as society and our law defines that, but they also are the ones who repress it and otherwise resolve it, either legally or informally.

I also find a corollary to the male/female propensity for violence curious: most of the violence males commit is against other males; most of the violence females commit is against . . . males (and of course they always have an excuse if not outright justification).
   846. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5531424)
Yes. I'm not sure why applying a quote to an event a few days ago requires a irrelevant (see the point regarding fear in #836) citation of violence in the 70s.
If you don't think that Brian Son of Brian's response was relevant, then, sure, say so, but don't claim that he's wrong/crazy by refuting an argument he didn't make.

(Not to put words in his mouth, but his point was to put the facts in perspective. One of the premises underlying that quote was that men did not have to fear being killed by women at that time. But if that was true, then women currently do not have to fear being killed by men, since the rates are the same.)
   847. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5531425)
Simply a misrepresentation. I have stated over and over again, including on the last couple of pages, my belief that the homelessness problem is mainly a mental illness problem. Second is drug abuse. Third is hipster homeless. Fourth are the category that people obsess over as if they make up 95% of homeless people: in this group are people who really ARE down on their luck, are not mentally ill, do not have a substance abuse problem, have tried, tried, tried, but still can't find a job.

Most of the people in the fourth group aren't actually on the streets at all, as they're taken in or supported by friends or family temporarily, or they rig some other temporary fix -- such as selling their house -- and they're unemployed for a few months and then they land on their feet again.

There is zero reason in 2017 America that someone who is of able mind and body should be unemployed (which means has no job but actively looking or one) for years on end, unless one simply has made poor decisions all down the line.


So let's set aside the fact that I don't exactly trust that a patent lawyer in NYC has a side hobby of calculating homelessness statistics and just talk about your supposedly tiny 4th group....

Are you really so obtuse as to fail to recognize the barriers to getting back on your feet once you're off your feet? First of all - you've likely been evicted... which is going to be at least something of an obstacle to getting a new place - some options are off the table and even the ones that are, are not going to be exactly amendable to a "can you give me a few weeks/months to come up with the remainder of the grand or so you need for a security deposit?" Second, as a corollary to above - your access to credit is likely nonexistent... beyond the sorts that are going to be yet another barrier to getting back on your feet. Third, by virtue of your eviction - you've likely lost your inventory of things you might have been pawning or selling in the attempt to stay afloat. Fourth, there's an EXCELLENT chance you're also now operating in the banking world of dealing with losing 1% to 3% of your paycheck just to cash your paycheck from the job you managed to land.... to say nothing of the fact that you're probably living in money order land, which means an extra buck or two just to do something like pay rent to the place you managed to get to get back on your feet.

Beyond even homelessness and just talking about poverty generally - this is the problem... at a point in your life when you could actually use some hardship waivers to get back on your feet, in fact - the barriers multiply.

Things do not get easier - or even just stay as hard as they are in such cases, they get exponentially harder.
   848. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5531427)
But like basically everything about gender, it's a factor of a couple, not the orders of magnitude it gets represented as.


I think (accepting your numbers) that 2.5 to 1 is a really high difference. I don't know that it is presented as an order of magnitude or "a couple", but it is a huge deal.

If the murder rate jumped by 2.5 times (+250%) that would be massive and people would freak out. Regardless of how it is presented (couple or order of magnitude) men are more violent towards women than women are towards men - even as society as a whole decreases in such violence (using your murder rate example), still it appears that the relative rate is still skewed towards men being more violent.

Which, to loop back to the original quote, does suggest that the asymmetry in men's fears about women and women's fears about men still holds true today. Which is kind of sad.
   849. The Good Face Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5531430)
First - I'd just say that you grossly misunderstand modern software development and are stuck in an 80s era Wargames mindset if you think only geniuses write code or involved in development lifecycles today. The nature of the modern beast is that you DO have to relatively intelligent to architect it, but implementation in various areas (as well as necessary ancillary areas like QA) nowadays isn't a whole lot more taxing than learning how to assemble the widget on the assembly line.


You don't need to be a genius to hold down a job as a code monkey today, but you need to be closer to 115 IQ than 85.

But - even setting that aside... manufacturing sector employment has been flat or declining for as long as anyone under 65 has been old enough to even think about life after childhood. You know what hasn't? The service sector. Transportation. Etc.

So - Danny Dimbulb should have set his sights on getting a CDL and becoming a trucker... or an installer... or whatnot.


His name is Danny Dimbulb, not Danny Carefully-Considers-All-Available-Information-And-Makes-The-Best-Possible-Decision. Making suboptimal life choices is part of the package. But sure, he could become a trucker and lose his livelihood in a decade or so once self-driving trucks become ubiquitous. He can't become an installer, because Diego Dimbulb from Guatemala already has that job, and employers much prefer him over Danny. Don't have to comply with employment law and whatnot.
   850. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:19 AM (#5531432)
but his point was to put the facts in perspective.

"I suppose she's good with a twist of phrase, but she's a better goalie - should've stuck with her day job."

A familiar point, I suppose. Perhaps I misread.
   851. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5531434)
(Not to put words in his mouth, but his point was to put the facts in perspective. One of the premises underlying that quote was that men did not have to fear being killed by women at that time. But if that was true, then women currently do not have to fear being killed by men, since the rates are the same.)


And of course this is silly. If we are discussing relative rates between outcome A and outcome B, and A is higher than B by a factor of 2.5, then it is higher, even if in the past the rates of both A and B were even higher than they are today.

To use a concrete example (with totally made up numbers), if I say motorcycles are way more dangerous than cars and cite statistics saying the death and injury rates are 5 times higher for motorcycles than cars and pull out a quote from 20 years ago talking about "murdercycles" it is silly to proclaim that quote is basically wrong because the rates of death and injury for cars 20 years ago are equal to motorcycles today.

The quote is still basically valid if relative to cars they are still much more dangerous, even if the rates of injury and death from both have decreased over the years. The quote is about the relative danger from A and B (where A is motorcycles or men and B is cars or women) and not the absolute level of danger.
   852. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5531435)
Somebody has a knot on his head this morning.


Hopefully you.
   853. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5531436)
It's true males commit most violence and crime, as society and our law defines that, but they also are the ones who repress it and otherwise resolve it, either legally or informally.


They may be most of the arsonists, but they are also most of the firefighters, so it all works out. Right?
   854. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5531437)
If the murder rate jumped by 2.5 times (+250%) that would be massive and people would freak out.


If it was overnight, sure, people would freak (and rightly so). But if the murder rate jumped 2.5X (which is +150%, FWIW), we'd be living in the murderous hellhole of America in 1980. Or present day Mad Max post-civilisation wastelands like Greenland, Puetro Rico, and the Cayman Islands. Or leaving pleasant Minnesota for the lawless anarchy of Georgia.
   855. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5531438)
   856. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5531440)
711

Now, what is the CAUSE of said unemployment? What is the CAUSE of them not being able to afford housing?



Downsizing, since all those MAGA hats are made in China?
   857. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5531442)
Seems odd to me to push back on that, but YMMV.


I push back on everything that's asserted from ideology rather than fact. Which is why I'm always getting lumped in with the leftists ;)
   858. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5531443)
A supremely interesting case of homelessness is that of George R. Price, the expounder of the Price equation in biology. His story is told in Oren Harman's (2010) The Price of Altruism: George Price and the Search for the Origins of Kindness, A genius, associated with W. D. Hamilton and John Maynard Smith, apparently Price couldn't accept in a deeply psychological sense the implications of his own findings wrt selfishness/selflessness. Whether those findings were a mere trigger or an actual cause, he went off the rails, became a Christian fundamentalist, wrote esoteric minutia of a religious and theological nature, lived in "squats" in North London while helping other homeless street persons and squats. He ended up severing his carotid artery.
   859. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5531444)
If it was overnight, sure, people would freak (and rightly so). But if the murder rate jumped 2.5X (which is +150%, FWIW), we'd be living in the murderous hellhole of America in 1980. Or present day Mad Max post-civilisation wastelands like Greenland, Puetro Rico, and the Cayman Islands. Or leaving pleasant Minnesota for the lawless anarchy of Georgia.


Well yeah, but the rise in crime rates drove much of the politics in 1980 and afterward (despite the fact that violent crime rates keep going down). Basically, people are terrible at evaluating risks like that, and most of them don't even realize how pleasant Minnesota is versus Georgia - despite how obvious it is, I mean just look at the posters here in this thread. :)
   860. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5531445)
What do people think of the Freakonomics argument that Roe v Wade created the crime drop? I never followed up after reading it years ago. Was it validated/discredited?
   861. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5531446)
In this case, it strikes me that Ray was particularly clear with his initial post (494); the problem may have been that it was just before a flip. Then snippets were used, and contextual issues abounded. Then Ray's... persona? defense mechanism? inability to see complexity (to borrow from 808) kicked in and off we went.
If only Ray were as generous as you are in reading what people say with an eye towards what they mean and then accepting unreservedly when they clarify what they meant. Generally when I clarify a statement of mine I get called a liar by Ray (note: Ray is hardly the only one who does this and obvious it is not just me that gets called a liar for explaining what was meant).
That. And this:
Exactly. My position here is not difficult to understand, for any reasonable person. One may disagree with it, but claiming that it's oh so hard to figure out is a bit much. Misrepresenting it, as some have, is a lot much.
This post neatly demonstrates Ray's other key traits: Throwing in a completely unnecessary condescension (those who disagree with me are mentally slow and/or unreasonable) along with a criticism of behavior he himself engages in constantly.
Every time on this thread people don't engage with the actual words on the screen, and instead make assumptions about intent, the discussion goes off the rails.
Yep. As an experiment, it's interesting to catch up on a thread by scrolling *up* slowly and guessing the handle of a post before you see the name. Some are easy every time (cough*TGF*cough) but many, including Ray when he's not in Binary/Condescension mode, will surprise.
   862. The Good Face Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5531447)
What "amen chorus" is this?


Argument by incomprehension is tiresome enough when Lassus does it. Your engaging in the practice doesn't improve it.

when I call you out for being rude and disruptive?


Your issue isn't rudeness or disruptive behavior. You never bother to call out the lefties when they engage in such things. You can only screw up your courage to "call somebody out" when they're a member of an outgroup and you've got the pack at your back. Because you're pathetically insecure and afraid of being socially isolated, even in an environment as inconsequential as this one.

I understand the underlying mechanism, which is part of why it seems so obvious to me that your own aggression is an expression of that exact dynamic


Aggression? Again, you're projecting your fears and insecurities onto my behavior. I'm far from aggressive, I merely reserve the right to treat people the way they treat me. People who are pleasant and respectful will be treated the same way. Insecure people who feel the need to signal their tribal bona fides by attacking me may find themselves attacked in turn.

as you seek to preemptively solidify your own status by putting others in their place


What status? Status with whom? I realize this seems alien to somebody as hollow as you, who lives terrified of the judgments and possible exclusion of others, but I act as I act because it's the right thing to do. Not because I have an audience that will reward me.

   863. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5531451)
They may be most of the arsonists, but they are also most of the firefighters, so it all works out. Right?

You of course instantly convert a mere observation to a gibe redolent of social meaning, fostering the impression that anyone who says this is excusing violence.

Men being more prone to violence probably has a lot to do with the way their brains and mental organs and components and the associated traits evolved, along with their specific role in social organizations, which also was, and is, recursively informed by that biology. But don't think if it shaking you cliche precepts and predispositions make you uncomfortable.
   864. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5531452)
You don't need to be a genius to hold down a job as a code monkey today, but you need to be closer to 115 IQ than 85.


But as I said - you don't even need to be a code monkey. The number of ancillary, non-coder based roles on projects varies by exactly what you're building of course, but you'd be surprised how many roles exist that Danny could do... Even Danny with his 85 IQ ought to be able to handle following instructions like "use CTRL+F to search for each of these 700 object IDs provided in this list, verify each of these three metadata objects that look like this example, and then follow these instructions to correct any that don't meet this standard, ask X if any aren't clear".

His name is Danny Dimbulb, not Danny Carefully-Considers-All-Available-Information-And-Makes-The-Best-Possible-Decision. Making suboptimal life choices is part of the package. But sure, he could become a trucker and lose his livelihood in a decade or so once self-driving trucks become ubiquitous. He can't become an installer, because Diego Dimbulb from Guatemala already has that job, and employers much prefer him over Danny. Don't have to comply with employment law and whatnot.


Which only reinforces my point: Why does Danny Dimbulb from Rust Belt, Ohio or Appalachia warrant more understanding that Danny Dimbulb from Urban Center, USA.... What makes the burg factory worker or coal miner any more sympathetic to poor decisions than the urban stockroom drone?

As to your last point, though -- I think I've been pretty consistent and clear that I'm fine with whatever penalties you want to apply to employers. Indeed, I think I've said often - and as recently as last week - that extraordinarily punitive punishments, including financial death penalties for businesses and even jail time is my version of the 'wall'.

I do very much support paths to citizenship so by virtue of his already being legally able to work, Danny should apply for Diego's job while Diego takes the steps necessary to be able to compete with Danny.
   865. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:48 AM (#5531453)
I push back on everything that's asserted from ideology rather than fact.

The facts are pretty clear that women have much greater reason to fear being killed by men than vice-versa. The pushback in this case seems more like ideology to me.
   866. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:48 AM (#5531455)
Can you? I addressed the shift from men and women to husbands and wives. You know, what happened in the thread. Strange that you think my specifically addressing an aspect of the relevant posts in your mind means I can't read, but OK.

And on that subject I think it silly to limit the discussion to killing, I think broadening it to violence is much more appropriate. And anyone who believes that men commit violence against women at the same rate and degree that women commit violence against men is a lunatic.
Jesus 2.0. Sequence:

Lassus: Posts quote about men & women & killing.
BB: Actually, putting the facts relating to the quote in perspective, X is the case. (Except he says husbands & wives instead of men & women.)
Lassus: Points out that the quote was about men & women not husbands & wives.
BB: Says that his point is still true if we're talking about men & women.
Lassus & BM: Saying Z is crazy.
Me: But he didn't say Z. He said X.
BM: But saying Z is crazy.


And it isn't BB who limited the discussion to killing; he was responding to a quote that was about killing.
   867. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5531456)
I act because it's the right thing to do. Not because I have an audience that will reward me.


Every human on earth is a massive bundle of irrationality, confirmation bias and so on. You are not immune, I am not immune, no one is immune. The idea that being part of a community makes one less reliable than someone who is alone and cut off from society is silly. Both states, being in and out of a community, cause bias of different sorts.

The man with no name, wandering into town on his horse, setting things right and then riding away, independent, alone, and better than everyone else is and always has been a childish myth (though it makes for some pretty great westerns I must admit). Time to let go of such things if you want to be taken as an adult.
   868. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5531457)
my belief that the homelessness problem is mainly a mental illness problem. Second is drug abuse.

Well, that's wrong, you have one and two reversed.

According to the 2010 SAMHSA report:[136]

26.2% of all sheltered persons who were homeless had a severe mental illness
About 30% of people who are chronically homeless have mental health conditions.

34.7% of all sheltered adults who were homeless had chronic substance abuse issues
About 50% of people who are chronically homeless co-occurring substance abuse problems.


This analysis is incorrect; it makes the assumption that there's no overlap between the two categories (mentally ill and substance abuse).

Third is hipster homeless.

This contention is less wrong than actually insane:

2 percent earned money by peddling or selling personal belongings.


Most hipster homeless don't peddle or sell their belongings; they just put their hand out, like most other homeless categories.

This is ludicrous:

A 2010 longitudinal study of homeless men conducted in Birmingham, Alabama, found that most earned an average of ninety dollars per week while working an average of thirty hours per week.


That doesn't make sense on its face.
   869. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5531458)
According to the 2010 SAMHSA report:[136]

More "hilarious" sources. You are falling for the trap of "Big Homeless" like so many liberals.


Sources from 2010 are sufficient for most modern day issues. But not for this one, given the marked increase in hipster homeless over the past few years, including young women.
   870. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5531459)
Men being more prone to violence probably has a lot to do with the way their brains and mental organs and components and the associated traits evolved, along with their specific role in social organizations, which also was, and is, recursively informed by that biology. But don't think if it shaking you cliche precepts and predispositions make you uncomfortable.


I am having trouble parsing this mess, but at its base I never suggested any reason for why men are more violent than women, simply that it is the case. Logically the cause is some combination of nature and nurture, but I am not clear why you think that would make me uncomfortable. It is fairly obvious.
   871. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5531460)
Yeah - despite WH claims to the contrary - it sounds like 'Amnesty Don' (as Breitbart has gleefully started warning him this AM) actually did come to an agreement with Chuck & Nancy...

By all means, Dems... keep riding the craving approval Trump pony.

Much as I still loathe the man and want him gone ASAP, I will gladly risk rises in his popularity and "maybe he's not so badism" if it means that GOP control of DC actually leads to Dem-lite legislation.

   872. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5531461)
And of course this is silly. If we are discussing relative rates
And of course, all you ever want to do is discuss relatives rather than absolutes, for obvious reasons.

To use a concrete example (with totally made up numbers), if I say motorcycles are way more dangerous than cars and cite statistics saying the death and injury rates are 5 times higher for motorcycles than cars and pull out a quote from 20 years ago talking about "murdercycles" it is silly to proclaim that quote is basically wrong because the rates of death and injury for cars 20 years ago are equal to motorcycles today.
That may be a concrete example, but it isn't parallel to the discussion here. If you say that in the 1970s, cars were safe and motorcycles were dangerous, and that the same is still true, and then someone points out that actually motorcycles today are as safe as cars in the 1970s, then one of your premises is wrong. True, motorcycles are still more dangerous than cars, but they're no longer dangerous based on your initial claim about the 1970s.

The quote is still basically valid if relative to cars they are still much more dangerous, even if the rates of injury and death from both have decreased over the years. The quote is about the relative danger from A and B (where A is motorcycles or men and B is cars or women) and not the absolute level of danger.
The claim was that in the 1970s, men didn't have to fear violence from women -- just ridicule. That's an absolute claim, not a relative one.
   873. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5531462)
Time to let go of such things if you want to be taken as an adult.

By whom? The stars of OTPs Days of Our Lives?
   874. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5531463)
So let's set aside the fact that I don't exactly trust that a patent lawyer in NYC has a side hobby of calculating homelessness statistics and just talk about your supposedly tiny 4th group....

Are you really so obtuse as to fail to recognize the barriers to getting back on your feet once you're off your feet? First of all - you've likely been evicted... which is going to be at least something of an obstacle to getting a new place - some options are off the table and even the ones that are, are not going to be exactly amendable to a "can you give me a few weeks/months to come up with the remainder of the grand or so you need for a security deposit?" Second, as a corollary to above - your access to credit is likely nonexistent... beyond the sorts that are going to be yet another barrier to getting back on your feet. Third, by virtue of your eviction - you've likely lost your inventory of things you might have been pawning or selling in the attempt to stay afloat. Fourth, there's an EXCELLENT chance you're also now operating in the banking world of dealing with losing 1% to 3% of your paycheck just to cash your paycheck from the job you managed to land.... to say nothing of the fact that you're probably living in money order land, which means an extra buck or two just to do something like pay rent to the place you managed to get to get back on your feet.

Beyond even homelessness and just talking about poverty generally - this is the problem... at a point in your life when you could actually use some hardship waivers to get back on your feet, in fact - the barriers multiply.

Things do not get easier - or even just stay as hard as they are in such cases, they get exponentially harder.


I agree with all of this. And none of it refutes my point that this is mainly a mental illness / drug abuse problem. You assume above that those factors aren't present and that they don't completely override the homelessness issue; but they are and they do.

All you do above is show how hard it is to get back on one's feet once one hits rock bottom. Sure. I agree. And this is STILL the smallest category of homeless people, which was my original point.
   875. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5531464)
The facts are pretty clear that women have much greater reason to fear being killed by men than vice-versa.


"much greater" is pretty subjective. They have a 2~3X greater reason. Which is being presented like it's 100~1000x greater or more. If people were using "much greater" to mean "oh, maybe three times more", they wouldn't feel the need to push back on actual numbers. It's a kind of neat coincidence that this is also how much more people in the 70s-80s had cause to fear being murdered than we do (which, admittedly is a bit callous way of phrasing it - but here we are).
   876. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5531465)
This analysis is incorrect; it makes the assumption that there's no overlap between the two categories (mentally ill and substance abuse).


Most everyone agrees the root causes of such a thing as homelessness are complex and likely multivariate. Thus any such representation of "x is the cause" is going to end up being overly simplistic in nature. A "better" representation would end up being much more complex with weighted scores in a regression analysis or some such, but it would be a bad way to communicate as it would confuse many people.

Sources from 2010 are sufficient for most modern day issues. But not for this one, given the marked increase in hipster homeless over the past few years, including young women.


Awesome opportunity for you to show us the better source. I am open to any credible source of information you care to link to. I don't actually have much predisposed opinion on homelessness. I am not homeless, I have never been homeless, and I don't have a great deal of other insight into the homeless. Which is why I was willing to take the admittedly inelegant step of just using the top few Google search links, especially since they all roughly agreed with each other and with common sense.
   877. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5531467)
This post neatly demonstrates Ray's other key traits: Throwing in a completely unnecessary condescension


Well, thank god you don't have _that_ problem, Pot.
   878. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5531468)
he was responding to a quote that was about killing.

The quote is about fear, brought up (by me) in reference to an instance where the fear turned out justified.
   879. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM (#5531469)
What "amen chorus" is this?

Argument by incomprehension is tiresome enough when Lassus does it. Your engaging in the practice doesn't improve it.


At least there's a certain charm when Lassus does it.
   880. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5531470)
Which only reinforces my point: Why does Danny Dimbulb from Rust Belt, Ohio or Appalachia warrant more understanding that Danny Dimbulb from Urban Center, USA.... What makes the burg factory worker or coal miner any more sympathetic to poor decisions than the urban stockroom drone?
I think you know the answer to that question.
   881. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5531472)
he was responding to a quote that was about killing.

The quote is about fear, brought up (by me) in reference to an instance where the fear turned out justified.
The quote is about fear of being killed: "In the men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them department:"
   882. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5531473)
If you say that in the 1970s, cars were safe and motorcycles were dangerous


But I didn't say any such thing. I didn't say men were safe. I have no idea why you think I did. I did take just a snippet from the original quote, but I don't think I did it maliciously and my statement after tried to make it clear the point I was making. If not, I think I have clarified enough that by the now established Ray Standard of post clarification I think we are good.

And of course, all you ever want to do is discuss relatives rather than absolutes, for obvious reasons.


Huh? In this specific case I was talking about a quote which addressed the relative and asymmetric fears of men and women. That sort of thing is relative in nature IMO. If you want to argue people should evaluate risk better, should have more reliance on absolute numbers and not just relative ones, then sure we agree.

But other times I often talk about absolute numbers. It kind of depends on context.
   883. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5531475)
The quote is about fear of being killed: "In the men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them department:"


The quote is clearly about the asymmetry between the fears of women versus the fears of men. Both sides fear, but one sides fears something much more dire than the other. Reducing it down to the most simplistic and nuance free version of the text is like being too busy counting, measuring, and cataloging all those trees over there to bother finding that forest everyone else is talking about.

EDIT: To be clear I am referring to the base Atwood quote. If it was used up thread in a different context then my bad, and carry on.
   884. Hot Wheeling American Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5531476)
@realDonaldTrump
The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built

@ScottAdamsSays Retweeted Donald J. Trump
This is the real story. The rest is just word-thinking about what a "wall" is and is not.
   885. Hot Wheeling American Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5531478)
@ScottAdamsSays
Scott Adams drinks yet more coffee and teaches you all the persuasion tricks President Trump is using on wall/DACA
   886. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5531479)
As to other solutions to homelessness, we could start by revamping the entire K-12 educational system. Homework is piled on to elementary school and junior high kids when in actuality studies show that homework doesn’t become beneficial until 9th grade or so. So we have families of young children going crazy with backpacks full of homework and useless projects when they could instead be getting quality time at home with their family, particularly given that they’ve already spent several HOURS of the day at school.

The second issue is all of the useless classes such as home ec and the like. Or the 12th English lit class where they assign books nobody wants to read. Or the foreign languages classes. Some combination of those is fine -- building fundamental reading and writing and logic skills are important -- but the insane focus on them is wasted time and energy. Instead we could be spending part of that time teaching high school kids to learn a vocational skill, such as carpentry or wiring or some such – so that they have something to fall back on in case they’re not suited for college. Instead we just assume that every kid is suited for college, and so we waste valuable learning years from 14-17 teaching them stuff that for many of them will never help in life.

The above could help reduce that small portion of the homelessness problem that presents itself because some kids are coming out of high school with no prospects and no skills despite having just been in school for a dozen years.

But the above solutions have to take a back seat to more pressing issues, such as deciding which bathrooms the handful of transgender students can use, I do realize.
   887. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5531480)
Your issue isn't rudeness or disruptive behavior. You never bother to call out the lefties when they engage in such things.


I generally don't call out "righties" for that, either. I called you out for entirely non-partisan reasons - your petty little insults derail discussion in a way that others' don't.

Plus, since you've explicitly said that you don't have a "tribe", it shouldn't matter to you whether or not I call out "lefties" or "righties", because you don't have any allegiance to or support from either. Right? That's why I ask for clarification as to how you define these tribes, because it seems like a huge internal contradiction in your explanation.

People who are pleasant and respectful will be treated the same way.


That may be your perception of your own behavior, but it doesn't line up at all with my experience of seeing you interact with others.

What status? Status with whom?


With the other people who post here. You've claimed that you don't care at all about their opinions, but that's obviously not true from both your behavior and your subsequent attempts to rationalize it. If you legitimately didn't care, you wouldn't have gotten agitated when you were challenged and tried to escalate your dominance display, because there would have been no need to try and bluff me down. For that matter, you wouldn't have kept posting in here for years and years if all you were doing was shouting into a void.

Like all other people, you want to be liked and respected. You just have maladaptive coping mechanisms that manifest in antisocial behavior.
   888. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5531481)
word-thinking

Oh my.
   889. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5531482)
Trump Launches Broad New Anti-Leak Program

National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster “has directed government departments and agencies to warn employees across the entire federal government next week about the dangers and consequences of leaking even unclassified information,” BuzzFeed reports.

“The Trump administration has already promised an aggressive crackdown on anyone who leaks classified information. The latest move is a dramatic step that could greatly expand what type of leaks are under scrutiny and who will be scrutinized.”


Pretty much every administration leaks to some extent. Pretty much every executive HATES it. They all try to stem the leaks and rarely seem to succeed. So from that standpoint this is just business as usual. However, from what I have read the Trump administration leaks way more than normal and the measures being put in place to stop it (including but not limited to above) are also fairly extreme.

That may just be reporting though, honestly no clue. In any event I doubt these new measures will be all that effective, or if they are extreme enough to be effective then they - like many such security measures - will end up causing more net harm to the administration than good.
   890. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5531485)
National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster “has directed government departments and agencies to warn employees across the entire federal government next week about the dangers and consequences of leaking even unclassified information,” BuzzFeed reports.


For example, if you happen to talk about a classified Israeli intelligence source in front of a hostile foreign leader, you could significantly hamper operations against ISIS.

If only Trump had known!
   891. The Good Face Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5531486)
Time to let go of such things if you want to be taken as an adult.

By whom? The stars of OTPs Days of Our Lives?


If there's one thing BM is good at, it's missing the point in a truly spectacular fashion.
   892. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5531487)
790

He always asked people for their votes. He never said that no reasonable person wouldn't vote for him, or slandered them as deplorable if they didn't.


No, but he started caterwauling about rigged elections if he'd lost, pretty much right away. Pre-emptive caterwauling.
   893. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5531492)
No, but he started caterwauling about rigged elections if he'd lost, pretty much right away. Pre-emptive caterwauling.


And then, in hilarious fashion to negate this point, it was Democrats who suddenly started caterwauling about rigged elections -- and who haven't stopped.
   894. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5531494)
As to other solutions to homelessness, we could start by revamping the entire K-12 educational system.


While I think schooling in the US is hardly ideal, and perhaps changes in it might reduce homelessness a tiny amount, I think overall school reform has bigger and more pressing goals. Homelessness can be on the list, but it is no where near the top in my opinion. But again I am not an expert so maybe the relationship is more powerful than it would otherwise appear.

But the above solutions have to take a back seat to more pressing issues, such as deciding which bathrooms the handful of transgender students can use, I do realize.


Trollish barb aside, I have a couple points. First I think we can manage to deal with more than one problem at a time. I hope so anyway, or we are doomed. Secondly I am genuinely curious as to the numbers of the homeless caused by flaws in schooling versus the number of Transgender students. Are you sure there is more of one than the other? Both groups are small, but it is not clear to me one group is obviously much smaller than the other.

And of course the size of a group is not the only determinant as to the urgency or importance of dealing with the situation. Sometimes you choose an easy solution that takes very little investment and has little cost (Use the bathroom of the gender you self identify as - done) versus the hugely costly and complex task of redesigning the school system to reduce its impact on homelessness.
   895. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5531496)
it was Democrats who suddenly started caterwauling about rigged elections


Trump's claims regarding the legitimacy of the election he won are more flagrant and ridiculous than anything any Dem has stated. Also, Dems do not believe the election was "rigged" - some believe that there was foreign interference in the court of public opinion but nobody has disputed the actual vote totals, as far as I know. It's certainly not a mainstream view.
   896. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:29 AM (#5531497)
We offer a lot of vocation skills in high schools (or at least, have in the recent past). I could take accounting classes, programming classes, mechanical classes like wiring - my highschool included a car focussed shop class, language classes, home skill classes (cooking, sewing .. and ?), I'm sure some others - it's been a while. But there are a lot of practical classes. Many people took 'em - only ~half of high school kids even try to go to college. Yeah, we had to take a lot of "English" classes - but being able to read & write well are very transferable skills.

But they're not prestigious, so parents push their kids out of them. And that does often end up with them getting cut - they can be expensive, and no one's using them.
   897. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5531499)
I agree with all of this. And none of it refutes my point that this is mainly a mental illness / drug abuse problem. You assume above that those factors aren't present and that they don't completely override the homelessness issue; but they are and they do.

All you do above is show how hard it is to get back on one's feet once one hits rock bottom. Sure. I agree. And this is STILL the smallest category of homeless people, which was my original point.


I very much do not assume those factors aren't present -- but as I said a few pages ago, the services required to treat those issues are woefully underfunded and in short supply. I will also agree that large portions of the separate mental illness and drug abuse categories are overlapping, but that only emphasizes my point further because now you're also talking about not just needing professional mental health, but also substance abuse/detox. My beef is pretending that such services are readily available - but just unused - by individuals OR their families. They are not. If you do want me to carve out an "I agree with you" category (it's the fault of family, yada yada) - I would carve out the slim proportion of such folks who are very wealthy and can afford private treatment options, regardless of coverage... i.e., if you're a millionaire - I readily agree that there's a no excuse for a family not to get their family member treatment (with limits, of course - a family can certainly spend to no end and still come up short on an individual... and indeed, at least as far as substance abuse goes - there is a point where every treatment professional will tell you that the sad, final answer is that you have to land on and stick with a last chance treatment plan).

Regardless, though -- I would also point out that just because one falls into that category, they are, of course - still near certain (if not MORE) likely to also face the same hurdles as the purely 'unfortunate' i/r/t wrecked finances, credit, and access to it. In all the various endeavors to get back on one's feet -- "I was suffering from an untreated mental illness and concordant substance abuse problems" isn't going to help that shitty credit score in terms of securing a place to live and employment... indeed, it's probably just going to make it harder.

Ultimately, my point remains that however one ended up in such a situation -- they need burdens eased and lifted so as to focus on the core essentials to returning to being a productive member of society, not more obstacles and difficulties.
   898. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5531500)
If there's one thing BM is good at, it's missing the point in a truly spectacular fashion.


Hey man if you don't want to be taken as an adult, well that is up to you. I can lead the horse to water, but if you are not thirsty, you are not thirsty. I feel pity for you that you consider yourself as having no tribe here, no connection to the people you spend so much time discussing these issues with. As I said I love the community aspects of this site, but everyone gets something different out of the experience.
   899. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5531502)

This analysis is incorrect; it makes the assumption that there's no overlap between the two categories (mentally ill and substance abuse).

Simple but true. Moreover, from tons of experience, I the general observation that the more that substance abuser gets clean and the longer he stays clean, the less mentally ill he becomes. Is the opposite true? Can someone get mentally healthy if he doesn't remove himself from the depths of substance abuse?
   900. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5531506)
Can someone get mentally healthy if he doesn't remove himself from the depths of substance abuse?


Removing yourself from substance abuse can also make mental health issues worse - some people start using as a way of self-medicating for those kinds of conditions.

It's all very complicated.
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