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Monday, September 11, 2017

OTP 11 September 2017: Hurricane Irma wreaking havoc on minor league baseball playoffs

There are 18 minor league affiliations that play playoffs every season, and those playoffs all have different formats – some with one wild card, some with split first-half/second-half winners, some with a required 8-10 team playoff grouping. This season, the issues caused by Hurricane Irma will lead to 3 of those 18 championships being cancelled and turned into co-champions.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:54 AM | 1783 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: minor league baseball, minor leagues, playoffs, politics

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   901. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5531510)
Trump's claims regarding the legitimacy of the election he won are more flagrant and ridiculous than anything any Dem has stated. Also, Dems do not believe the election was "rigged" - some believe that there was foreign interference in the court of public opinion but nobody has disputed the actual vote totals, as far as I know. It's certainly not a mainstream view.


Foreign interference = rigging.

Democrats don't get to claim both that Putin interfered with the election AND that this was not rigging and be taken seriously.

The point of the RussiaRussia claim is that the election was not a fair one. That's what rigging means.
   902. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5531511)
Removing yourself from substance abuse can also make mental health issues worse - some people start using as a way of self-medicating for those kinds of conditions.

It's all very complicated.


Yes, it is. I have often been told by former addicts that they drank or used because it made them feel good when nothing else did, and they kept drinking more because they wanted to feel good, and as their tolerance increased, they just upped the ante. The problem with an addict is when it stops making him feel good, when it makes him feel awful, he still can't stop doing it.
   903. GordonShumway Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5531515)
Even Danny with his 85 IQ ought to be able to handle following instructions like "use CTRL+F to search for each of these 700 object IDs provided in this list, verify each of these three metadata objects that look like this example, and then follow these instructions to correct any that don't meet this standard, ask X if any aren't clear".


I am skeptical that a person with an 85 IQ would be able to fully comprehend what you just wrote, let alone properly execute such instructions without constant supervision.
   904. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5531518)
I am skeptical that a person with an 85 IQ would be able to fully comprehend what you just wrote, let alone properly execute such instructions without constant supervision.

I laughed at that passage as well, but I think the instructions to those operations would not be gone over in one sentence; and honestly when described and instructed properly by a normal human being, I think it would be quite simple.
   905. The Good Face Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5531520)
I generally don't call out "righties" for that, either.


Now you're just resorting to bald faced lying.

I called you out for entirely non-partisan reasons - your petty little insults derail discussion in a way that others' don't.


And here's a confirmation bias justification for the lie.

Plus, since you've explicitly said that you don't have a "tribe", it shouldn't matter to you whether or not I call out "lefties" or "righties", because you don't have any allegiance to or support from either. Right?


It matters in the sense that it's an accurate description of reality. You claim to be "calling out" rudeness or disruptive behavior, but you only "call out" such behavior from people who disagree with you politically. You're just justifying your own bad behavior by pretending it's some sort of principled stand. It's not.

That may be your perception of your own behavior, but it doesn't line up at all with my experience of seeing you interact with others.


Whereas your perception of my behavior is to be accepted? Please. My experience of seeing you interact with others is that you're an ####### to anybody who doesn't generally share your political beliefs.

With the other people who post here. You've claimed that you don't care at all about their opinions, but that's obviously not true from both your behavior and your subsequent attempts to rationalize it.


I've simply said that I value doing what is right more than I value the opinion of anybody here. And there's nothing in my behavior inconsistent with that.

If you legitimately didn't care, you wouldn't have gotten agitated when you were challenged and tried to escalate your dominance display, because there would have been no need to try and bluff me down.


More projection. You're so fearful and insecure that you perceive the slightest prodding as a dominance display, that I'm trying to "bluff you down" (to where? what does that even mean?). Even now you can't let this go. Because that would mean that you've been "dominated" in your fucked up head. Despite me telling you exactly what I'm doing and why, you're still playing my game, two days later.

For that matter, you wouldn't have kept posting in here for years and years if all you were doing was shouting into a void.


I post here because it's fun.

Like all other people, you want to be liked and respected.


I do and I am. BBTF is not the world.
   906. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5531525)
Foreign interference = rigging.

Democrats don't get to claim both that Putin interfered with the election AND that this was not rigging and be taken seriously.


I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that he interfered, that it was serious, and that it was not rigging. "Rigging" to me means that the election was fraudulent. It was not.

Look at the France election, where (IIRC) there was a huge dump of leaked anti-Macron stuff timed to perfectly coincide with some sort of national gag order that prevented his camp from addressing it. That election was not "rigged" - the votes were the votes, 100% legitimate - but you're damn right that the French intelligence services should take that #### seriously.

The election was legit. Trump really did win it. It was not rigged. Russia tried to sway voters. This should be investigated and ceased in the future.
This is the mainstream Democratic view.

The point of the RussiaRussia claim is that the election was not a fair one. That's what rigging means.


Not really, the RussiaRussia stuff goes beyond the election and into whether they struck any secret pre-inauguration deals, stuff like that.

Regardless, you will have zero defense of Trump's absurd claims about voter fraud, because there is no defense for it. Your equivalency is ####### nonsense.
   907. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5531527)
Yes, but Ray - Trump's claims of "election rigging" hinge on individual voter fraud, presumably orchestrated by the opposing side for its own interest, and have been proven false.

The claims (not just by the Dems, but primarily so) that the Russians at least attempted to manipulate the election have been nearly universally accepted as true.

--------------

Additionally, orchestrating voter fraud, on an individual level, by Americans, would be massively illegal. Foreign interference in the domestic election process is a problem we would seek to avoid, but almost certainly not indictable (unless it turns out Americans were involved/abetted). I'd be very surprised if the CIA doesn't at least attempt to rig elections on a regular basis.

------------
The point of the RussiaRussia claim is that the election was not a fair one.
No. The point of RussiaRussia is not that *Russia* was doing anything, but whether American citizens in some way assisted those efforts. Russia is practically *expected* to try and interfere.

No one (credible) is claiming that the election is illegitimate (except Trump, whose ego needs to win bigly-er) or that DJT isn't the President. Lots of folks aren't *happy* about it, and/or wish he were removed, but there are no claims of illegitimacy.

ETA: Jones Soda for PF; extra points for the pre-election deals aspect of RussiaRussia (although that's more than likely business-as-usual for incoming administrations, albeit without the clumsy lying about it).

   908. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5531528)
   909. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5531529)
Yes, but Ray - Trump's claims of "election rigging" hinge on individual voter fraud, presumably orchestrated by the opposing side for its own interest, and have been proven false.


What's funny is that the conservative elites -- later known as the NeverTrumpers -- have claimed since forever that voter fraud is prevalent.

Then when Trump claimed it they said he was crazy.
   910. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5531530)
Democrats don't get to claim both that Putin interfered with the election AND that this was not rigging and be taken seriously.


We know that the Russians at least attempted to interfere with the election. We don't know (yet) whether they were successful at rigging it, though it's not unreasonable to harbor suspicions.

There is a wealth of evidence on the Russia situation, and none w/r/t Trump's claims, so those two things really aren't comparable.
   911. GordonShumway Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5531532)
I am skeptical that a person with an 85 IQ would be able to fully comprehend what you just wrote, let alone properly execute such instructions without constant supervision.


I laughed at that passage as well, but I think the instructions to those operations would not be gone over in one sentence; and honestly when described and instructed properly by a normal human being, I think it would be quite simple.


Perhaps. Maybe I've worked in too many mediocre software companies in my lifetime, but in my experience it's not that common to find a software manager who can clearly communicate instructions and expectations to lower level employees.

Also, I think zonk's example is a nice idea in theory, but won't happen in real life any time in the foreseeable future. Even if there is a position within a software company that can be effectively filled by an individual with an 85 IQ, said company will not hire that individual, as there are plenty of higher-IQ applicants to choose from for the position.
   912. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5531533)
There is a wealth of evidence on the Russia situation

Cite just one piece of that evidence.

There's much less there than there is that Saudi Arabia materially aided the 9/11 attackers.
   913. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5531535)
We don't know (yet) whether they were successful at rigging it


Forget it.
   914. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5531536)
Perhaps. Maybe I've worked in too many mediocre software companies in my lifetime, but in my experience it's not that common to find a software manager who can clearly communicate instructions and expectations to lower level employees. Also, I think zonk's example is a nice idea in theory, but won't happen in real life any time in the foreseeable future. Even if there is a position within a software company that can be effectively filled by an individual with an 85 IQ, said company will not hire that individual, as there are plenty of higher-IQ applicants to choose from for the position.

And it wouldn't make sense for me to dispute a word of this, certainly.
   915. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5531537)
I don't have a good feeling for how stupid an 85 IQ is.
   916. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5531538)
The election was legit. Trump really did win it. It was not rigged. Russia tried to sway voters. This should be investigated and ceased in the future. This is the mainstream Democratic view.


BINGO!
   917. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5531540)
There's much less there than there is that Saudi Arabia materially aided the 9/11 attackers.


I'll give you that one, for sure.
   918. BDC Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5531544)
I don't have a good feeling for how stupid an 85 IQ is

One dog shy of Tommy Lasorda.
   919. Covfefe Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5531546)
Perhaps. Maybe I've worked in too many mediocre software companies in my lifetime, but in my experience it's not that common to find a software manager who can clearly communicate instructions and expectations to lower level employees.

Also, I think zonk's example is a nice idea in theory, but won't happen in real life any time in the foreseeable future. Even if there is a position within a software company that can be effectively filled by an individual with an 85 IQ, said company will not hire that individual, as there are plenty of higher-IQ applicants to choose from for the position.


Heh - well, it's not my bailiwick anymore -- but years ago, I like to think that I very much could write such instructions out so that even our proverbial Danny could grok it (I was very big on examples, illustrations, and providing CVLs)... part of this, of course, came from the fact that back in the day - I used to first try to script out such corrections, but for a non-expert developer most fluent in rather rudimentary tools like perl or simple little awk one-liners, there's only so much you can properly regexp (especially if you have to use other fields for context).... but it does give you a leg up on writing manual fix instructions that your limited scripting skills can't tackle.

In any case, I don't want to lean too much on personal examples from 10 years ago - but virtually every company is at least in some way, a software company now... we're more of a publisher - in the legal space - so what I'm generally referring to is the sort of content that DOES tend to be relatively uniform, with relatively straight-forward CVLs, but it's just as that over decades upon decades of hundreds of thousands of docs in a content stream (likely having undergone multiple base content format changes and translations to boot) - you do always, inevitably end up with tons of archival data that is actually best served by manual intervention. I doubt we're unusual in this regard -- there are plenty of publishers in professional spaces (from academia to finance, beyond just law) where the same is the case.

I will say though, this isn't something Danny should plan on being a long-term factory assembly line replacement either... Just in a decade -- NLP, xquery, and publishing methods that no longer require pristine markup/are better able to handle stream translations/corrections have come a long way. We still employ a relatively fair number of human eyes, though - because even when you automate, you still have no lack of outliers that require little more expertise than being able to read.

Anyway, I'm just saying that even today - on any given project and setting aside the various product folks/looking solely at the raw work/build aspect, less than a third of the team would be actual coders or architects. Another third certainly include other roles that an 85 IQ won't get you far with - UX designers, project managers (though... well... never mind, don't want to offend any PMs :-)... but we still very much have a decent chunk of folks without any particular technical expertise. That said - I also do not want to denigrate such folks by any stretch... a good content specialist (as we call them) or QA analyst is still quite valuable in my mind, even if higher ups/budgets don't always recognize that.... though, I do get the sense that they've started to recognize that the age-old "cost of a new hire" still applies, even when we're talking entry level work. I.e., such folks are just tossed into the pool on day 1 - there is most certainly up-and-running time to learn our software and processes.



   920. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5531547)
BINGO!

I'm not sure what counts as mainstream Democratic anymore. I'm okay with President Obama's statements regarding the Russians, as well as much of what Diane Feinstein has said. Both have been heavily criticized for not saying and doing more.

The problem is whatever Russia did pales in comparison to the ruckus raised by the combination of Trump v Nevertrump. I know its bonkers that DJT is PUS, but we did that 99.9 percent domestically.

The President we deserve. Putin ain't all that.
   921. zenbitz Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5531548)
And then, in hilarious fashion to negate this point, it was Democrats who suddenly started caterwauling about rigged elections -- and who haven't stopped.


IT'S A TRAP.
   922. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:32 PM (#5531549)
I'm not sure what counts as mainstream Democratic anymore.

Seems more accurate you don't care or acknowledge what is, which is not the same thing.
   923. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5531551)
I was going to say, I think that's probably also the mainstream Republican view of it.
   924. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5531552)
I'm not sure what counts as mainstream Democratic anymore.


It's someone who yells Nazi sympathizer rather than engage with an argument.
   925. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5531553)
I don't have a good feeling for how stupid an 85 IQ is


Something like a sixth of people have an IQ of 85 or lower.
   926. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5531555)
920

Putin ain't all that.


No, but he thinks he is. For chrissakes, Vlad...put your goddam shirt on, willyaplease?
   927. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5531556)
You claim to be "calling out" rudeness or disruptive behavior


No, I claimed that I was calling out YOUR rude and disruptive behavior, which I was. You're the one who wants to try to make it about you being a member of a tribe and/or a non-member of a tribe (you don't seem to be entirely clear on that point), rather than merely about you being rude and disruptive.

Correctly pointing out your juvenile display for what it is doesn't obligate me to police everything that everyone else says, ever.

I've simply said that I value doing what is right more than I value the opinion of anybody here.


You have, but that's not a particularly compelling explanation. If you didn't value the opinion of anybody here, there wouldn't be any reason for you to be posting here, rather than on a different site with different people whose opinions you did value. So it seems much more likely that you do value people's opinions, but just don't want to admit it. Maybe because you equate need with weakness and acknowledging a need implicitly places you in a subordinate position, or maybe for some other reason. Can you elaborate on that?

Even now you can't let this go. Because that would mean that you've been "dominated" in your ###### up head.


Comments like that one are a big tell that I'm right on the money - you're projecting your own motivations onto me. You hate that you were called out, and you hate that it's still going, but you can't bear to admit that your dominance display failed, so you keep trying to double-or-nothing to salvage the respect that you claim not to care about.

I post here because it's fun.


Maybe so. What about it, specifically, do you enjoy?
   928. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5531557)
It's someone who yells Nazi sympathizer rather than engage with an argument.


Speaking of which, it's your turn to engage in this argument. 906 and 907 are waiting.
   929. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5531558)
Cite just one piece of that evidence.


Sure.
   930. BDC Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5531559)
Something like a sixth of people have an IQ of 85 or lower

There are six of us on this end of the hall in my office building … I think I know which one you're talking about.
   931. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5531561)
I know the intense focus on political soap is not going to change, but some really fantastic posts get lost in the shuffle in the Trump thread inflation. Beyond the funny stuff, Omineca Greg knocked my socks off with yesterday's anecdote on his former FN employee. And I love the historical reports from Greg K and Ishmael. And I like the funny stuff in general from our resident comics.

I don't need anybody to tell me what a swell person they are in RL. Write something that sparks curiosity and I might want to sleep with you...
   932. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5531562)
It's someone who yells Nazi sympathizer rather than engage with an argument.


Most of us have decided the Nazi position isn't worth engaging with intellectually. You're welcome to join us, Ray.
   933. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5531564)
929

Sure.



And the "FAKE NEWS!" cry in 5...4...3...
   934. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5531568)
Even if there is a position within a software company that can be effectively filled by an individual with an 85 IQ, said company will not hire that individual, as there are plenty of higher-IQ applicants to choose from for the position.


Average IQ for someone diagnosed autistic is around 85. IQ doesn't measure every aspect of cognitive ability, many autistics can sit and burrow into code just fine. Microsoft has a special recruiting protocol to attract autistic coders, and (IIRC) the main issue that keeps autistic coders from succeeding wasn't their inability to do the job itself, but the difficulty in interpersonal relations. That's where they focused their support system for the recruits.
   935. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:48 PM (#5531572)
What's funny is that the conservative elites -- later known as the NeverTrumpers -- have claimed since forever that voter fraud is prevalent.
What's funny is you are defending (or deflecting from) Trump's dishonest and untruthful statements by attempting to make a false equivalency.

Trump: Pre-emptively went on the attack with unsubstantiated claims of potential illegal Dem voter fraud. Post-emptively (sic) those claims became outright lies, which he to this day continues to repeat.

Ray: Excuses Trump's (potentially slanderous?) lies by pointing at other stuff which is unrelated, not illegal, and not untrue.


Sure, both Trump's fabrications and Russia's machinations fall under the broad umbrella of "election rigging" if you look at it a certain way. That doesn't mean they are the same thing, and your motives in failing to equate them are... unclear.
   936. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5531574)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.


This might not come off right, but it's 95%+ homage:

Sooner or later friend, you've got to fall.

RIP.
   937. GordonShumway Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5531576)
Even if there is a position within a software company that can be effectively filled by an individual with an 85 IQ, said company will not hire that individual, as there are plenty of higher-IQ applicants to choose from for the position.

Average IQ for someone diagnosed autistic is around 85. IQ doesn't measure every aspect of cognitive ability, many autistics can sit and burrow into code just fine. Microsoft has a special recruiting protocol to attract autistic coders, and (IIRC) the main issue that keeps autistic coders from succeeding wasn't their inability to do the job itself, but the difficulty in interpersonal relations. That's where they focused their support system for the recruits.

Yeah, I used "85 IQ" in my post because that was tossed around in earlier posts as a shorthand for people with well below cognitive aptitude.

I was curious about what you wrote about Microsoft, and found this article: https://www.fastcompany.com/3062835/microsoft-autism-hiring

Interesting stuff.
   938. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5531578)
focused on divisive social issues such as race, gay rights, gun control and immigration

As mentioned above, that's what social media is good at, pushing people's buttons with bits of information, some of it untrue, that gets engorged by the human tendency to fill in the blanks with the known. Or more commonly, the believed. Not sure how drop in the bucket ad buys swayed the pee-existing conversation.

But I admit these paragraphs buried deep in the stoey are troubling:

But the new measures do not directly affect Facebook ads. Advertisers pay to have particular Facebook posts displayed high in the news feeds of whatever group of people is targeted.

The audience for an ad can be chosen using broad factors, such as middle-aged American men, or very specific ones, such as mothers who live in Minneapolis and like churches and the Minnesota Twins.

That ability to target is valuable to political campaigns, and the company actively reaches out to candidates around the world to teach them how to use Facebook to get their messages out, including through paid advertising.
   939. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5531582)
Funny how Hüsker Dü were nonchalantly 2/3rds gay, and the straight guy was the one with the moustache.

MSP seems like a different country from a distance.
   940. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5531585)
you're projecting your own motivations onto me.

In RL, one of you would have displayed dominance already and it'd be over. With a six-foot metal pole, if necessary.
   941. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:11 PM (#5531586)
In RL, one of you would have displayed dominance already and it'd be over. With a six-foot metal pole, if necessary.


Kowalskibot will not be mocked.
   942. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5531589)
I am too young to have listened to Husker Du in the 80s. When I was a teenager (in the 90s) I discovered the Minutemen, the Replacements and such and at the time I purchased both New Day Rising and Zen Arcade, but I never got into either one. The production bothered me, that thin tinny sound and I couldn't get over it. It's been 20 years. Must revisit.
   943. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5531590)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.


I'll look him up.
   944. The Good Face Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5531594)
No, I claimed that I was calling out YOUR rude and disruptive behavior, which I was.


Now you're lying about what you said earlier, but that's OK, you're accidentally letting something interesting slip.

Correctly pointing out your juvenile display for what it is doesn't obligate me to police everything that everyone else says, ever.


Let's drill down into this then. What is it that makes you so obsessed with me and my posts? I'm interested to hear your justification for your behavior.

You have, but that's not a particularly compelling explanation.


It's not compelling to you because you're not a complete person. You're filled with fear and insecurity, you lack confidence, and so you can't understand a person who's not terrified of the estimation of others. You're too afraid to simply communicate openly with your parents who, presumably, love you. That's why you're so obsessed with toadying for respect and affirmation from random internet personas. It's not surprising you don't understand my perspective.

You hate that you were called out,


Once again, you're projecting. I called you out by posting the mildest of jibes, knowing that you'd furiously lash out and defend yourself lest you feel "dominated". Your words.

and you hate that it's still going


Yet again, I'm having fun, I'm getting what I wanted! Are you having fun? You don't seem like you've having much fun, but depressives seldom do. Ah, let's just be honest here. We both know you're miserable; if this sort of thing was fun for you, you'd do it all the time. Like I do. You're simply driven by fear, fear of being dominated, fear of being seen as weak. That's why you can't stop, why you can't let anything go.

   945. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5531600)
Someone give TGF his meds already. Man he sounds like someone going off the rails.

Seriously dude, are you OK? Oh right "Yet again, I'm having fun, I'm getting what I wanted!" Totally believable. Yup.
   946. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5531602)
but any analysis of data on violence makes it startlingly clear that the real people to be afraid of are not black or brown, rather they are men of all colors.


No, I'm pretty sure the men violence numbers can be broken down by race and discrepancies discovered.
   947. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5531604)
This perhaps explains TGF's ... recent posts.

Trump’s biggest fans, from Breitbart to r/The_Donald, are furious about his immigration deal

President Donald Trump’s most hardcore supporters are really angry that he might have reached a deal to protect young immigrants from deportation.

The deal would come with tighter border security and protections for DACA recipients — but no funding for the wall. It is, based on the latest news reports, still in the works.

This has been perceived by some of Trump’s supporters as a betrayal — because Trump repeatedly said on the campaign trail that he’d be “tough” on immigration, build a wall, and deport, not protect, undocumented immigrants.
   948. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5531607)
I wonder if Trump's having fun. Bannon seems to be!
   949. Rally Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5531608)
Funny how Hüsker Dü were nonchalantly 2/3rds gay, and the straight guy was the one with the moustache.


Sounds kind of like ZZ top. Two thirds of the band had long beards, and the one who didn't was named Beard.
   950. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:47 PM (#5531609)
The deal would come with tighter border security...— but no funding for the wall.


Hmmm, that sounds just like that Gang of Eight bill, and also what Obama was proposing around the same time. We should wait to see what it looks like after all is said and done before jumping to any conclusions, but with those two provisions and protection for the DACA immigrants, this does seem like the beginnings of a reasonable compromise.

And if it splits the GOP in half, so much the better, but that's just a bonus. The real point should be to put the DACA recipients out of danger of deportation and provide them with a path to eventual citizenship. They represent a far better version of American than most of their haters.
   951. Covfefe Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5531613)
Heh... one of the pro-Trump places I like to read for amusement purposes actually has a comment that, while I don't vouch for his statistics nor do I expect we agree on immigration - actually does summarize the stupidity of the OMG THE WALL trumpkins...



The WALL is THE single most frustrating issue for those who live in border states to TRY to explain to those who don´t. Please listen up.
There are 2 types of "illegals." 50% of them ENTER our country illegally and the other 50% ENTER our country LEGALLY---but STAY here ILLEGALLY. The former are generally the peons who dig, climb or swim---risk their lives--- to live in America. Basically, they just want to be ranch hands, keep their nose to the grindstone and quietly keep to themselves. They are mostly harmless. A WALL WILL STOP THEM.
The OTHER 50% represent the REAL problem. They come here LEGALLY on $55 shopper or family-visit visas--- to shop at Walmart for the day or visit Tia Maria for the week. They LIE, because they have no intention of shopping or visiting anyone once they cross the border LEGALLY. Instead, huge networks pick them up once they´ve crossed the border and they fan out across America with the INTENTION of ripping off the system. We have NO WAY to TRACK these people, and they KNOW it. How come we can track a UPS package and not a person who overstays his visa? They STAY illegally and there are NO consequences---except to our infrastructure and economy. A WALL will do NOTHING to stop this 50% because they crossed LEGALLY. These are the people with malicious intent!
Both groups are doing something illegal and they know it. A wall will help, but it will stop ONLY the LEAST dangerous people, the peons. Most wouldn´t know how to rip off the system if they tried.
The wall is political eye candy. Yes, we can say doing something is better than doing nothing. But burying our heads in the sand about the REAL problem is NOT going to produce an effective solution.


   952. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5531614)
I just clicked on that link in #947, and here's a sampling. What's not to like?

Bullfuckingshit. No fucking DACA amnesty. Period. Even Hillary gave you an out with her comments about Dreamers. Don't be a ####### retard, Mr. President. Look at what amnesty did to California. That state will forever be lost to Democrats.


The most upvoted (but later deleted) reply to that comment echoed the sentiment:

This is the first time I'm really going against a proposal of his. Trump, what the fuck are you thinking??? This will end up becoming another Reagan scenario! DON'T GIVE AMNESTY TO THE DACA RECIPIENTS!!! I didn't vote you into the White House for this!

Spez: For those who want to call me a concern troll, I've been a supporter since Summer of 2015. I have the right to hold the man accountable. Fuck off.


So, Ray, is this what 12th Dimensional chess looks like? What is Dilbert saying?

   953. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5531616)
I'd read an omnibus version of the GF Vlad smackdown.
   954. Greg K Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5531617)
Hmm, I always thought italicizing or bolding every 3rd word went out of fashion in the 17th century. Glad to see someone is keeping the spirit alive!
   955. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5531618)
Yeah, probably better to quote Trump's alleged "hardcore base" than admit to being completely wrong about Trump himself.

This observer told everyone long ago that Trump would wind up triangulating -- it's right there in the archives -- and Trump is triangulating. The quality of prediction should come as little surprise, but alas -- apparently -- it does.
   956. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5531623)
There are 2 types of "illegals." 50% of them ENTER our country illegally and the other 50% ENTER our country LEGALLY---but STAY here ILLEGALLY. The former are generally the peons who dig, climb or swim---risk their lives--- to live in America. Basically, they just want to be ranch hands, keep their nose to the grindstone and quietly keep to themselves. They are mostly harmless. A WALL WILL STOP THEM.
The OTHER 50% represent the REAL problem. They come here LEGALLY ... and they fan out across America with the INTENTION of ripping off the system.


Not sure if this is true or not, but it's an interesting take. Like with the homeless discussion above, I suspect it's a false dichotomy. The peons don't need to know how to rip off the system ... if they ever move out of day labor work they'll need a social security card and someone in the community aids them with the resulting identity theft.
   957. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5531626)
This observer told everyone long ago that Trump would wind up triangulating


I'm sure you did and I'm sure you're right. He's running his office like he ran "The Apprentice". Evidently he likes the formula.
   958. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5531633)
What is it that makes you so obsessed with me and my posts?


I've never talked with a troll about trolling before, and I'm always interested in gaining insights into new things. Some of your responses have been honest, and even the ones that aren't are still illustrative in that your selection of a particular prevarication or rationalization can help show what's going on under your mask.

If you were a blacksmith, I'd be asking you about how you make the curves in those fancy balusters rich people put on their staircases. But you aren't, as far as I know, so we aren't.

Yet again, I'm having fun, I'm getting what I wanted! Are you having fun?


Somewhat, though I'd be having more fun if you'd stay on topic. Can we get back to what, specifically, you enjoy about posting here? You seem reluctant to address that, which probably means that the answer is interesting.

Go ahead! You're a big strong man who tells it like it is and doesn't care what any of us think about you, right? What do you have to lose?
   959. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5531634)
This observer told everyone long ago that Trump would wind up triangulating



I'm sure you did and I'm sure you're right. He's running his office like he ran "The Apprentice". Evidently he likes the formula.


Trump may suddenly be acting n a more moderate (read: making deals with Democratic leadership) fashion, but I think calling it triangulating is both too early to truly call and overselling it.

To most outside observers Trump often acts in semi-random fashion, and then reverts back. I can detail out a few of the many times he has done this if someone is suffering from a Memento-like memory issue. So a few instances of him brokering deals doesn't yet make a trend. I mean it could happen, but it is early.

My second objection is - in my opinion - built into the definitions and assumptions of triangulation. I think it assumes some degree of base principle, a direction one wishes to go and clever shifts in order to reach goals along the way (I may not be stating this 100%, cut me some slack). Trump doesn't have a north star other than naked narcissism and self interest. The only triangulation he is doing is not left/right it is to get adulation and to get other things he wants (like money, for example).

I mean I guess you could call it a sort of triangulating, but it is very different from the sort Bill Clinton made famous.
   960. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5531635)
No, I'm pretty sure the men violence numbers can be broken down by race and discrepancies discovered.


Indeed, people are mostly murdered by people of their own race. So, that's who to avoid.
   961. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5531636)
I purchased both New Day Rising and Zen Arcade, but I never got into either one. The production bothered me, that thin tinny sound and I couldn't get over it.

Interesting. The 90s had definitely moved on from that production sound. I think I ended up the perfect age to love both. Did you listen to later Sunny Day Real Estate at all?


I'd read an omnibus version of the GF Vlad smackdown.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to feed some of the debates here into one of those animation engines with the crazy electronic voices. And yet, I haven't.
   962. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5531637)
Grant Hart of Hüsker Dü has died of cancer at age 56.


Never listened to any of their music. Any recommendations on a good place to start?
   963. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5531638)
Dems do not believe the election was "rigged" - some believe that there was foreign interference in the court of public opinion but nobody has disputed the actual vote totals, as far as I know.

That wasn't really true during the recount hysteria, and just yesterday Congresswoman Jackie Speier (D-CA) weighed in:
Or, furthermore, hacking into the very election system. Both the voting records, and I’m not convinced that they didn’t get into the machines.

Are other Democrats disputing Congesswoman's Speier's claims?
   964. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5531639)
and Trump is triangulating.

I also hear Trump is in the best shape of his life. Or will be in two weeks.
   965. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5531640)
I also hear Trump is in the best shape of his life. Or will be in two weeks.


LOL (in a good way)
   966. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5531641)
Trump doesn't have a north star other than naked narcissism and self interest.


I know you can read my thoughts voters "Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump"
   967. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5531642)
Never listened to any of their music. Any recommendations on a good place to start?

Everything. But other than that, New Day Rising and Warehouse Songs and Stories. Others may differ.
   968. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5531643)

Interesting. The 90s had definitely moved on from that production sound. I think I ended up the perfect age to love both. Did you listen to later Sunny Day Real Estate at all?


Never heard of em, and the description as "one of the early emo bands" doesn't exactly recommend them to me.
   969. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5531645)
There are 2 types of "illegals." 50% of them ENTER our country illegally and the other 50% ENTER our country LEGALLY
Are the numbers even close to 50-50? How would we know?

Broadly speaking, this seems like a reasonable summary. The Wall is incredibly stupid because it does nothing to address the stayover illegals. And from my multiple-state-away perspective, the day labor types may not only be mostly harmless but, in some places, kinda necessary. Does this class of folks end up burdening social services, including medical? I ask because I don't know. But The Wall is stupid for them, too, unless you also build it on the shore of places like this, along the entire border. Which is simply not, in any way, feasible.
   970. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5531646)
Yeah, probably better to quote Trump's alleged "hardcore base" than admit to being completely wrong about Trump himself.


I'll admit to being a little bit surprised. Given Republican leadership's inability to control its caucus on votes, it's been obvious for a while now that nothing much would get passed without Chuck and Nancy signing off on it. I just didn't expect Trump to be smart enough to realize that, or motivated enough to be willing to bend the knee in public in order to get stuff done.

His ego may still make him throw the bit and double back, but for now, I'm cautiously optimistic that the government will be able to accomplish at least the bare minimum necessities until he steps down or gets removed from office.
   971. Covfefe Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:18 PM (#5531647)
Yeah, probably better to quote Trump's alleged "hardcore base" than admit to being completely wrong about Trump himself.

This observer told everyone long ago that Trump would wind up triangulating -- it's right there in the archives -- and Trump is triangulating. The quality of prediction should come as little surprise, but alas -- apparently -- it does.


Completely wrong about Trump himself?

He's a narcissistic buffoon most concerned with his vainglory - I think every not-you observer has said this.

He's not "triangulating" - this assumes that he knows and gives a #### about actual policy. Bill Clinton 'triangulated' - because he knows and gives a #### about actual policy and coupled with his political acumen (the only thing he might share with Clinton, at least in some form) - navigated to a place on the policy endgame that he felt fit within acceptable parameters.

Trump is instead, being triangulated... and I'll repeat again that I wholly and totally support Democrats triangulating him into position, and indeed, leveraging his narcissism towards noble ends.

Now... as for Trump's role in this triangulation exercise - I think we probably should wait until we actually have a bill going through the process before we even grant him this role in the triangulation exercise he's being walked through by others.... because I'm not entirely certain he has the courage, leadership qualities, and such to actually bring that limited salesmanship aptitude to bear when it will be needed... and actually getting what amounts to Gang of Eight (even downsized gang of eight, specifically targeted towards DACA) legislation up for votes and passed will require him to actual face the music from his base.

If he actually DOES do precisely that - actually face the music of his favorite cable news network lambasting him, his favorite tweeters and websites needling him as Amnesty Don in exchange for pats on the head by the NYT, then I might admit to being wrong about him.... but hardly before.
   972. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:18 PM (#5531648)
Or, furthermore, hacking into the very election system. Both the voting records, and I’m not convinced that they didn’t get into the machines.

Are other Democrats disputing Congesswoman's Speir's claims?


Other dirty hippies are not convinced

This month the issue finally got on the national radar, as King and his colleagues on the Senate Intelligence Committee heard testimony from cybersecurity experts and national security officials about the seriousness of the situation, and news outlets digested the implications of a Bloomberg News report alleging that the Russians had infiltrated voter registration systems in 39 states.

While intelligence officials say there is no evidence that vote counts were changed last November, a leading expert on security threats to voting machines said this possibility cannot be excluded without a forensic audit of the results. Even voting and vote counting machines that are not connected to the internet can be and could have been compromised when they received software programming them to display or recognize this year’s ballots, said J. Alex Halderman, director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society.
   973. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5531650)
Are other Democrats disputing Congesswoman's Speier's claims?


That's not an affirmative claim of rigging - it's her saying that she doesn't know whether or not Russia was able to interfere with the vote totals. Which is an entirely legitimate concern, given that we know that Russian hackers got into the voter rolls and that voting machines themselves can be relatively easy to hack.
   974. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5531652)
Indeed, people are mostly murdered by people of their own race. So, that's who to avoid.


And we can rest assured they can be broken down even more than that. Pretty sure inter-racial discrepancies are more pronounced in one direction than even the male/female discrepancies -- if your own roughly 3X difference is accurate -- but the numbers are what the numbers are.
   975. Lassus Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5531653)
Never heard of em, and the description as "one of the early emo bands" doesn't exactly recommend them to me.

They were wall-of-sound rock when I listened/saw them. Never sure what "emo" refers to.

Also, as far as 90s production goes, Mould's follow-up band SUGAR could be more your taste. Or not. Maybe!
   976. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5531654)
Are other Democrats disputing Congesswoman's Speir's claims?


One woman I've never heard of said something yesterday that hasn't been immediately condemned by her political allies. Yep, you've definitely proved that I was wrong about what mainstream Democratic opinion was. What is the opinion of biggest Democrat of them all, Mrs. Clinton?

Referring to the conspiracy theories that were borne out of the email leaks, Clinton asserted that Russia had stood on the shoulders of fringe media outlets and "weaponized" their false assertions.

"This was a highly sophisticated influence operation," Clinton said. "I believe it did affect people's votes. I think it cost me votes."

"They clearly knew that stories that were making stuff up, trying to use the emails, were permeating Facebook and other sites," Clinton added.


Oh. Exactly what I said. But now that you're here, do you have a defense for Trump's assertion that there was widespread voter fraud on the order of millions of phony votes? Or are you on board with the bullshit equivalence here?
   977. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5531655)
Indeed, people are mostly murdered by people of their own race. So, that's who to avoid.


Heh. In most ways the most dangerous people are the ones you know, friends and family. Which means TGF is totally safe around here. :)
   978. Covfefe Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5531656)
Not sure if this is true or not, but it's an interesting take. Like with the homeless discussion above, I suspect it's a false dichotomy. The peons don't need to know how to rip off the system ... if they ever move out of day labor work they'll need a social security card and someone in the community aids them with the resulting identity theft.


Are the numbers even close to 50-50? How would we know?

Broadly speaking, this seems like a reasonable summary. The Wall is incredibly stupid because it does nothing to address the stayover illegals. And from my multiple-state-away perspective, the day labor types may not only be mostly harmless but, in some places, kinda necessary. Does this class of folks end up burdening social services, including medical? I ask because I don't know. But The Wall is stupid for them, too, unless you also build it on the shore of places like this, along the entire border. Which is simply not, in any way, feasible.


Again, I'm not vouching for random poster on another site's numbers...

Google seems to tell me that actually, it's more like 60/40 visa overstay/illegal crossing (granted, this is from a pro-immigration think tank... but everything else my quick search brings up seems to agree).

Anyway, my main point is just the stupidity of the wall... and FWIW, I'm happy that even someone I probably disagree with top to bottom virtually everything at least recognizes the stupidity of the dumb window dressing (that I'd call a dog whistle) so many numbnuts are panting over.

   979. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5531657)
In most ways the most dangerous people are the ones you know, friends and family.


They're the ones with the most opportunity to do something bad to you, but hardly the most dangerous in all but rare circumstances.
   980. simon bedford Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5531659)
"Candy Apple Grey" is the most accessible of Husker Du's lps , contains good songs by both Hart and Mould and the production is pretty decent ( it was on a major label) New Day Rising would be more suitable if you like the more raucous punk sound , Flip your wig is half way between the two but the songs dont hold up, Warehouse is the sound of the band falling apart but has its moments , Zen Arcade and land speed record are zero budget early stuff that have their moments but not a good place to start.
   981. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5531660)
Bullshit Equivalence is a not-bad rock band name.
   982. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5531662)
I actually don't mind Warehouse and Husker Du are really good, but IMO none of their stuff is as good as Mould's Workbook. If you told me my one and only desert island album would be that, I'd be like, "Yeah, no problem carry on."
   983. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5531663)

They're the ones with the most opportunity to do something bad to you, but hardly the most dangerous in all but rare circumstances.


It's not just opportunity, but also motive. If I don't know you, I probably don't have any reason to kill.
   984. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5531670)
How not shocking that Hillary Clinton ended up being the biggest sore loser in the world.
   985. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5531673)
If I don't know you, I probably don't have any reason to kill.


Except people wind up getting killed and assaulted and raped all the time by people they don't know.
   986. PepTech Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5531674)
This observer told everyone long ago that Trump would wind up triangulating -- it's right there in the archives -- and Trump is triangulating.
Which of course completely ignores that the distaste for Trump has never been about any political views he does or does not affect at any given time, but that he's a misogynist, a casual racist, a serial liar, and completely unqualified for his current position. But if you want to pat yourself on the back for "predicting" that Trump will do stuff to try to increase his own popularity, go you!
   987. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5531676)
Except people wind up getting killed and assaulted and raped all the time by people they don't know.


People who kill, assault, or rape you are very likely to know you.
   988. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5531680)
People who kill, assault, or rape you are very likely to know you.


So? There are thousands of times where this is not the case.
   989. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5531681)
"They clearly knew that stories that were making stuff up, trying to use the emails, were permeating Facebook and other sites," Clinton added.

Hillary's camp outspent Trump by a huge margin, something like $500M. The idea that some shady e-mails and Facebook ads switched otherwise persuadable voters who cost her the 2016 election is quite a reach. I've never met a single voter like that, and Hillary's excuse-making is more evidence of her refusal to accept the election than anything else.
   990. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5531682)
So Trump is triangulating? Here is the timeline of this triangulation. Read it before giving out too many plaudits.

The Latest: GOP speaker says Trump didn’t cut deal with Dems

Pretty funny stuff. What a three ring dumpster fire.
   991. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5531684)
"Why aren't I 50 points ahead, you might ask??

   992. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5531685)
In most ways the most dangerous people are the ones you know, friends and family.


People who kill, assault, or rape you are very likely to know you.


So? There are thousands of times where this is not the case.


Sigh.
   993. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5531686)
970

His ego may still make him throw the bit and double back


He already has...

Then, while traveling to Florida to visit with hurricane victims, Trump said he was still insisting on getting a wall built along the US-Mexico border.

"Ultimately, we have to have the wall," he told reporters. "If we don't have the wall, we're doing nothing."

Trump called the wall "vital" and threatened that Republicans would "become the obstructionists" if the wall was not funded.


Link
   994. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5531688)
More about leaks in the Trump administration ... The Trump administration’s big new anti-leak memo leaked last night

Of course it did.
   995. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5531689)
“At this point, who doesn’t want Trump impeached?”

— Ann Coulter, on Twitter, in response to Trump saying he’s working on a deal to protect DREAMers.
   996. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5531691)
So, Ray, is this what 12th Dimensional chess looks like? What is Dilbert saying?


No idea as I haven't checked in on him in a couple of weeks, but it seems clear to me that Trump was never interested in deporting DACA beneficiaries; he merely repealed the program to give him leverage to negotiate tighter border security with. Note that Trump didn't end DACA immediately; he suspended it for 6 months. Thereby giving him time to negotiate.

He's really playing you folks on this one. Your side is so obsessed with "the Dreamers" that you'll give up anything for them. Like a shark to blood Trump knows that. And so Trump will get you to literally sacrifice future immigrants in favor of the Dreamers, vis a vis tighter border security.

The notion that all of the Dreamers would be or could be rounded up and deported was always unrealistic, but the elites have become so obsessed with immigration that they dealt Trump a hand he could easily play. He's giving up nothing -- since deporting all the Dreamers was never going to happen -- in exchange for getting tighter border control.

It's really interesting to watch a person with his skill set approach the job of US president.
   997. Rockwell Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5531693)
Sigh.


Concession accepted.
   998. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5531694)
Which of course completely ignores that the distaste for Trump has never been about any political views he does or does not affect at any given time, but that he's a misogynist, a casual racist, a serial liar, and completely unqualified for his current position.


What an original observation!
   999. Morty Causa Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5531696)
The WALL is THE single most frustrating issue for those who live in border states to TRY to explain to those who don´t. Please listen up.
There are 2 types of "illegals." 50% of them ENTER our country illegally and the other 50% ENTER our country LEGALLY---but STAY here ILLEGALLY. The former are generally the peons who dig, climb or swim---risk their lives--- to live in America. Basically, they just want to be ranch hands, keep their nose to the grindstone and quietly keep to themselves. They are mostly harmless. A WALL WILL STOP THEM.
The OTHER 50% represent the REAL problem. They come here LEGALLY on $55 shopper or family-visit visas--- to shop at Walmart for the day or visit Tia Maria for the week. They LIE, because they have no intention of shopping or visiting anyone once they cross the border LEGALLY. Instead, huge networks pick them up once they´ve crossed the border and they fan out across America with the INTENTION of ripping off the system. We have NO WAY to TRACK these people, and they KNOW it. How come we can track a UPS package and not a person who overstays his visa? They STAY illegally and there are NO consequences---except to our infrastructure and economy. A WALL will do NOTHING to stop this 50% because they crossed LEGALLY. These are the people with malicious intent!
Both groups are doing something illegal and they know it. A wall will help, but it will stop ONLY the LEAST dangerous people, the peons. Most wouldn´t know how to rip off the system if they tried.
The wall is political eye candy. Yes, we can say doing something is better than doing nothing. But burying our heads in the sand about the REAL problem is NOT going to produce an effective solution.


I and others have explained how you track illegals, and the tracking would apply both kinds. Just ignoring what we say is tiresome. That legal who overstays illegal--he won't ever work? Apply for benefits? Go to a public school? A doctor, hospital? A Wall is not needed for either?

Just for starters.
   1000. BrianBrianson Posted: September 14, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5531698)
So? There are thousands of times where this is not the case.


So, you can stay much safer by avoiding people you know.
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