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Monday, February 12, 2018

OTP 12 February 2018: Jeff Samardzija explains why politics and baseball rarely mix

However, there were several curveballs that forced Giants’ players to think outside the box, including one from a fan who asked a trio that included catcher Buster Posey, reliever Cory Gearrin and starting pitcher Jeff Samardzija whether they think baseball players should have a role in voicing their political opinions like football and basketball players have in recent years.

The question temporarily stumped Gearrin and Posey, so as his teammates waited, Samardzija decided to jump in and share his perspective.

“I don’t think so, not necessarily because we’re here to entertain you guys. Every time we step on the field, it’s important,” Samardzija said, before pausing temporarily while a loud round of applause petered out.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 2005 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, san francisco giants, spring training

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   101. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5623616)
and if Steele says, "In my professional experience, these guys are reliable," that may be good.


He doesn't say that anywhere, and he isn't involved in making the warrant application. FBI and DOJ were. If Steele told them that, they could have put it in the application as something Steele told them, but he didn't -- or we would have already heard he did in the press.

And, again, we have no idea what other information was in the warrant application. None. Zero. Zilch.


We know Steele's information was minimally corroborated. And we do know some of what was in there.


   102. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5623617)
Following up on 91: But wait, McCarthy is even more of a hack than I thought. He writes:
In fact, they kept telling the FISA court he was reliable even after Steele himself admitted to a British court that his dossier wasn’t at all reliable.

What’s that? Am I kidding? No.

Truth is a defense to libel. Suffice it to say, it was not Steele’s defense.

Even though there was still no meaningful corroboration of Steele’s sources after months of investigation, even though Steele had lied to them, the FBI and Justice Department represented again and again, in April and June 2017, that the FISA court could confidently bank on Steele’s reliability. By early 2017, however, Steele was being sued for libel in Britain, among other places, by people accused of misconduct in the dossier.

Truth is a defense to libel. Suffice it to say, it was not Steele’s defense.

In May 2017, as I have detailed (here), Steele was required to respond to interrogatories. He emphasized that his dossier allegations were “raw intelligence” that was “unverified” and “warranted investigation.” He further described his reports as “limited intelligence” that described mere “indications” of “possible” coordination between Trump’s campaign and the Russian government. He was not in a position to vouch for the accuracy of what he’d been told, he explained; he passed it along because it needed further investigation.
McCarthy is either outright lying, or he is so sloppy that he cannot be relied on. We often talk, as McCarthy does, about "the dossier," but a dossier, by its very nature, is a collection of reports, not a unified whole. Steele did use the collection of words that McCarthy quotes him as having used, but Steele did not say them about "the dossier." Those are all quotes about one specific document, the December 2016 memo that he wrote.

The careful reader will note that the FBI applied for the FISA warrant on Page in October 2016. Buzzfeed may have included the December 2016 memo when it published its report in January 2017, but the December 2016 memo was -- I can assure you, despite (like McCarthy) not having seen the warrant application -- not part of the October 2016 application.
   103. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5623619)
So we're no longer claiming that economic gains over the past decade or two overwhelmingly accrued to the benefit of the wealthy? Huh, interesting. What are the new talking points?

Learn the difference between "all" and "most."


Ah, so it's copacetic as long as the plutocrats aren't capturing ALL of the gains. Be content with your crumbs ye peasants, that in their infinite mercy the Masters of the Universe have not taken ALL to slake their rapacious appetites!

Who knew that trickle down had made a comeback on the left of all places?
   104. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5623620)
McCarthy is either outright lying, or he is so sloppy that he cannot be relied on.


Sure thing, Mr. Material.

The careful reader will note that the FBI applied for the FISA warrant on Page in October 2016.


Unless Page was one of the four Trump team members the FBI whiffed on prior to October 2016.

I can assure you, despite (like McCarthy) not having seen the warrant application


You can't assure anyone of any such thing, because you have no idea whether the date is even accurate.
   105. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5623621)
There's literally nothing they can't do better than Americans! Except build a society that's not a ######## apparently.


Naw, I'd say that you Trumpkins are doing an amazing job of building a ########.

You see, that's a country becomes a ######## - people ignore the bullshit, they entrust the reins of a country to its biggest and finest shitter, #### piles up, and before you know it - voila... you've got yourself a ########.
   106. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5623622)
I’m genuinely interested in why people who hate [Trump], hate him so fervently.


I'm genuinely interested in why people hate paying taxes, hate paying so fervently. I'm also genuinely interested in why people who like seeing things hate being jabbed in the eye with an Allen wrench. Someone, please, help me to pierce this thick veil of understanding. I can't emphasize strongly enough that my bewilderment is incredibly genuine.
   107. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5623623)
He was not in a position to vouch for the accuracy of what he’d been told, he explained;


There's no reason at this point to believe he was actually even told those things, other than by either TOSB or Shearer.
   108. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5623630)
You can't assure anyone of any such thing, because you have no idea whether the date is even accurate.


If we can't trust #THEMEMO what can we trust?
   109. BDC Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5623634)
I'd be genuinely interested in why Trump hates people so fervently.

EDIT: No wait, that's a lie, I could give a #### about the interior of Trump's psyche. I guess the more genuine interest is in why people band around such a hater.
   110. Swoboda is freedom Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5623636)
Ah, so it's copacetic as long as the plutocrats aren't capturing ALL of the gains. Be content with your crumbs ye peasants, that in their infinite mercy the Masters of the Universe have not taken ALL to slake their rapacious appetites!

So if the US economy was contracting, or growing more slowly, things would be better? Is that your point?
   111. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5623639)
So if the US economy was contracting, or growing more slowly, things would be better? Is that your point?


My point is that pointing to GDP growth and dropping the mic is silly and non-responsive. The "But muh GDP!" crowd is ignoring the fact that there are more important factors that go into how "good" a country is for its citizens than what the GDP is doing.
   112. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5623640)
No wait, that's a lie, I could give a #### about the interior of Trump's psyche.


David Lynch isn't for everybody...
   113. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5623641)
My point is that pointing to GDP growth and dropping the mic is silly and non-responsive. The "But muh GDP!" crowd is ignoring the fact that there are more important factors that go into how "good" a country is for its citizens than what the GDP is doing.


The Point






























Your head.
   114. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5623642)
TGF: I think you'll find some of the stats on Japanese youth, marriage, work, and general quality of life rather shocking. Especially for boys and men aged 16-30.

We don't want that.
   115. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5623643)
EDIT: No wait, that's a lie, I could give a #### about the interior of Trump's psyche. I guess the more genuine interest is in why people band around such a hater.


This is why Adams says that Trump supporters and Hillary supporters -- well, call the latter group "Democrats" given that she lost -- are living in two different movies.

It's difficult for you to see because you're in your own "movie" (reality), but Trump supporters perceive Democrats as hating Trump supporters.

I make no moral or other judgment for these purposes as to who is correct; I'm just explaining the disconnect you're experiencing.
   116. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5623644)
My point is that pointing to GDP growth and dropping the mic is silly and non-responsive. The "But muh GDP!" crowd is ignoring the fact that there are more important factors that go into how "good" a country is for its citizens than what the GDP is doing.


Ha... Maybe you should take a gander at Trump's budget proposals and re-explain it to us.
   117. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5623647)
Now that you've had time to process that: What do you do when you're a Trump supporter and you believe that Democrats hate you? Do you sign on board with Democrats and their leaders? Or do you sign on with the guy who's telling you he's with you instead of against you, who is being attacked vociferously by the same people who are attacking you and yours?

The point of the exercise should be clear.


   118. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5623648)
It's difficult for you to see because you're in your own "movie" (reality), but Trump supporters perceive Democrats as hating Trump supporters.


At this point?

Yeah. I hate Trump supporters that remain Trump supporters. A year ago, I could fashion enough pity and/or understanding to "get it". The only thing worse are the opportunists who have conveniently jumped aboard since the election -- they know who they are.
   119. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5623650)
Now that you've had time to process that: What do you do when you're a Trump supporter and you believe that Democrats hate you? Do you sign on board with Democrats and their leaders? Or do you sign on with the guy who's telling you he's with you instead of against you, who is being attacked vociferously by the same people who are attacking you and yours?

The point of the exercise should be clear.


I think the point is that if you're a Trump supporter you should re-evaluate your life.
   120. BrianBrianson Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5623651)
If you roommates hate you because you keep pissing on the floor, do you respond by inviting over house guests who #### on the floor? Or do you consider that maybe your roommates have a point?
   121. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5623652)
If Trump really is so bad for the groups that you (Democrats) favor, then just about the worst thing Democrats can do is to energize a whole group of people on the right -- people who don't really have anything against the favored groups of Democrats -- to pick up arms for Trump and against you.

Your favored groups become collateral damage.

Perhaps a reevaluation of strategies, approach, and "tone" for you and yours should be in order.

(Although to paraphrase Wo Fat from the original Hawaii Five-0: "It should be... But it won't be.")
   122. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5623653)
Now that you've had time to process that: What do you do when you're a Trump supporter and you believe that Democrats hate you? Do you sign on board with Democrats and their leaders? Or do you sign on with the guy who's telling you he's with you instead of against you, who is being attacked vociferously by the same people who are attacking you and yours?

The point of the exercise should be clear.


Spare me the whining.

The entirety of Trump is based upon grievance mongering and hating the "other"... it's the culmination of 30 years of talk radio and Fox News.

Let's not pretend we're talking about nose-to-the-grindstone go-about-their-business types.

We're talking about people who have lived their entire lives bemoaning the coast elites, the Hollyweird people, the gay agenda pushers, the welfare queens who are inevitably urban blacks, the educated poindexters with their fancy degrees and colleges.

Please.

So now they're experiencing some reciprocity?

Poor them. Cook up some more meth or buy another gun or pound another bible. The last stop on the pity train was about 6 months ago.
   123. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5623655)
I mean, continuing to call people names and attack them relentlessly and hatefully might work in 2020 even though it failed in 2016. It's not the way I'd bet, but sure; it could work.

As Robert Culp told Lt. Columbo in Death Lends A Hand, "If you believe in it, see it through. Run it on down."
   124. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5623657)
If you don't believe that race is THE driving force behind deportation & attempts to reduce immigration. then this conversation will go nowhere. Hard to discuss reality with flat earthers.
You do know that approximately 125 million Indians currently living in India speak English, right?
   125. BrianBrianson Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5623661)
If Trump really is so bad for the groups that you (Democrats) favor, then just about the worst thing Democrats can do is to energize a whole group of people on the right -- people who don't really have anything against the favored groups of Democrats -- to pick up arms for Trump and against you.

Your favored groups become collateral damage.


So your proposed solution is to let Trump #### all over Americans? They should give Trump a pistol and a map to fifth avenue?
   126. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5623662)
I mean, continuing to call people names and attack them relentlessly and hatefully might work in 2020 even though it failed in 2016. It's not the way I'd bet, but sure; it could work.


Right, right, right... Rapists, fags, feminazis, "San Francisco values", "Chicago politics", and all sorts of sundry terms that would get nannied didn't exist until 2016.

   127. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5623664)
More federal judicial nominations today - 4 for the Circuit Courts and 5 District Court judges. Reporting is still a bit thin, but there are suggestions that the 9th Circuit nominee from Hawaii and the two 7th Circuit nominees from Illinois may have had some input from Senate Democrats. Perhaps a sign that the logjam of vacancies from states with Democratic Senators has broken? Still quite a few such vacancies to address.
   128. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5623665)
I don't hate him at all, in fact he's the most lovable lying, ignorant, bigoted narcissist who daily embarrasses his country, rips off the taxpayers and runs roughshod over any standard of decency. What's not to love about him?
That sounds way harsh, but will you at least acknowledge that Ray's a really good modified-fast pitch softball pitcher?
   129. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5623667)
So your proposed solution is to let Trump #### all over Americans? They should give Trump a pistol and a map to fifth avenue?


I thought it was clear what I was arguing, but to spell it out: I think toning down the hate-filled rhetoric and bigot calling would serve your side well, yes. Which includes directing the same towards Trump himself, as at this point any criticism of Trump is seen by his supporters as a criticism of them.

Now, his supporters are lost to you; they will never vote D in a million years. I get that. But expanding out from them are people who might possibly vote D (or stay home), who you're alienating with the hate-filled rhetoric. At least, from the way I see it. Obviously you'll disagree, which is fine.
   130. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5623670)
Now this is indeed funny:

Maher: Trump is ‘a costume away from a full-on dictator’

   131. Howie Menckel Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5623671)
turnabout is fair play dept.

"South African police say a suspected poacher was eaten by a pride of lions at a big game park in the province of Limpopo.

The animals "ate his body, nearly all of it, and just left his head and some remains," Limpopo police spokesman Moatshe Ngoepe told AFP. "It seems the victim was poaching in the game park when he was attacked and killed by lions."

A loaded hunting rifle, found near the man's remains, appears to be the main reason police think the individual was a poacher."
   132. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5623673)
I thought it was clear what I was arguing, but to spell it out: I think toning down the hate-filled rhetoric and bigot calling would serve your side well, yes. Which includes directing the same towards Trump himself, as at this point any criticism of Trump is seen by his supporters as a criticism of them.


You nailed it ray! You ignorant ####### fool. The GOP has hitched its wagon to a man that nobody can defend; unless, of course -- they are on the same "team". In which case, cool -- because they both go down together.

What were you saying about Eichmann again?
   133. PepTech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5623674)
I mean, continuing to call people names and attack them relentlessly and hatefully might work in 2020 even though it failed in 2016.
Actually, it worked extremely well for Donald Trump in 2016.

Perhaps that is why thinking people dislike him so.
   134. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5623675)
Now that you've had time to process that: What do you do when you're a Trump supporter and you believe that Democrats hate you?

And what do you do if you're a Democrat and you believe notice that Trump wants to kick people you know and like out of the country, and demonizes entire countries without pausing for breath?
   135. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5623676)
Shocking.

Top Justice Department official Brand quit partly over fear she might be asked to oversee Russia probe
Even if true, Brand ultimately left because a sweetheart gig became available.

And it's quite reasonable not to want to spend the next year or two consumed with the Russia investigation. The late Henry Hyde was beyond upset that two years of his six-year stint as Judiciary Committee chairmanship was pissed away to handle the Lewinsky investigation and subsequent impeachment proceedings.
   136. dlf Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5623677)
I mean, continuing to call people names and attack them relentlessly and hatefully might work in 2020 even though it failed in 2016.


Why do you suggest that it failed in 2016? Somehow, I missed the memo that "Crooked Hillary" won the election after having fended of "Little Marco" in the general election. I mean no one would support a candidate who said that a former President (of his own party) "didn't have the IQ to be President" because such name calling and relentless attacks are clearly a losing strategy.

Edit: I'd go so far as to suggest that DJT won *because* he insulted pretty much everyone, from the Mexican rapists to the bleeding out of her whatever journalists. I wish politics hadn't devolved to this level of juvenile behavior, but suggesting that the D's comments are the problem is simply historically ignorant.
   137. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5623678)
Which includes directing the same towards Trump himself, as at this point any criticism of Trump is seen by his supporters as a criticism of them.


Yes, you've appropriately identified how every authoritarian strongman in history operates.
   138. PepTech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5623679)
What is the suggestion for people who are neither Democrats nor Republicans, who find Trump personally loathsome?

Is it to enable Trump's... quirks? Refuse to allow them to become normalized? Move to Canada? Of those three, I choose the middle one. I'm open to other ideas.
   139. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5623680)
Yes, you've appropriately identified how every authoritarian strongman in history operates.


As I noted: he should be careful who he's calling "Eichmann".
   140. BrianBrianson Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5623681)
I'm not a Democrat Ray.

But my understanding of the data is that attack ads are really lousy at causing your side to turn out, and good at demoralising people who might vote for the candidate you're attacking. That's why people use them.

And certainly that's what we've been seeing - Trump's supporters are attriting from him pretty slowly, but they're not turning up for special elections, off brand elections, and the like. The idea that they're energised, or will be, doesn't seem to have any basis in fact. If something was really beyond the pale (at say, 1993 Canadian Federal election levels), it's possible for attack ads to backfire. But that example really is the only case I'm aware of.

Energise your base, demoralise your opponents base, that's the way. And constantly being confronted with who Trump is by all measures seems to be demoralising his base. The (D)s elected a senator in Alabama. Which had circumstances, but which was also a part of a pattern that's been pretty consistent.
   141. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5623683)
And it's quite reasonable not to want to spend the next year or two consumed with the Russia investigation.


And by damn, anyone who doesn't feel that way -- people like you and those you fluff will make damn sure they get there!
   142. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5623684)

and if Steele says, "In my professional experience, these guys are reliable," that may be good.

He doesn't say that anywhere,
Perhaps what you mean but aren't precise enough to write is that this isn't written in the dossier. But there's no reason it would be, given the purpose for which it was produced. But the FBI talked to Steele; they didn't just get an email from him with the documents attached and then staple those to a warrant application. So they'd have asked him about the details, and he'd have told them.
and he isn't involved in making the warrant application. FBI and DOJ were. If Steele told them that, they could have put it in the application as something Steele told them, but he didn't -- or we would have already heard he did in the press.
No, we wouldn't. Virtually nothing from the warrant application has leaked. The only things we've seen from the application are the tiny excerpts released by Nunes and Grassley.
   143. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5623685)
Is it to enable Trump's... quirks? Refuse to allow them to become normalized? Move to Canada? Of those three, I choose the middle one. I'm open to other ideas.


I've found that one need not limit yourself to a single option.
   144. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5623686)
Now, his supporters are lost to you; they will never vote D in a million years. I get that. But expanding out from them are people who might possibly vote D (or stay home), who you're alienating with the hate-filled rhetoric.


Not really -- a bunch of them, including in critical 2016 states, voted twice for Barack Obama.
   145. Lassus Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5623687)
"South African police say a suspected poacher was eaten by a pride of lions at a big game park in the province of Limpopo.

I was going to post this, but I figured that would be expected of me.
   146. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5623688)
Considering the high total of proposed "This is the reason why Trump won" flashpoints, you'd think the guy would've gotten more votes.

If Trump trashing is such a self-defeating electoral strategy, explain every election since last January 20th.
   147. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5623690)
The entirety of Trump is based upon grievance mongering and hating the "other"...


Mmmmmm.... irony. It's not just for breakfast anymore!
   148. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5623692)
The entirety of Trump is based upon grievance mongering and hating the "other"...


Mmmmmm.... irony. It's not just for breakfast anymore!


I see somebody has an Alanis Morissette tune rumbling around his head...
   149. PepTech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5623693)
Having lived in Japan, and (briefly) married to a Japanese, I can say with confidence that individually they are like any other group of people, many of them kind and gracious, fewer of them less so.

Collectively, Japan is a bitter, closed, racist society that simply does not comprehend why their word for "foreigner", with the dual meaning of "outsider" and "barbarian", could be part of the problem. Talk to some ethnic Koreans whose forebears were forcibly enslaved and relocated to Japan 100 years ago and today are denied voting rights or the ability to hold jobs in government (like, say, elementary school teacher).

"The nail that sticks up is hammered down" is illustrated well by the (true) anecdote of the junior high school students who happen to have naturally brown-tinted hair forced to go home and dye it black before they can be admitted to class.

I love the place too and would go back and live and work there if I could, but if any culture ever had the Master Race thing going, it's the Japanese.
   150. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5623694)
Perhaps what you mean but aren't precise enough to write is that this isn't written in the dossier.


I've said that like three times now.

But the FBI talked to Steele; they didn't just get an email from him with the documents attached and then staple those to a warrant application. So they'd have asked him about the details, and he'd have told them.


You're inventing things, but in any event, the point is that the FBI agent would have to attest in the papers to these conversations with Steele. These conversations would also constitute corroboration, which the FBI itself admitted was minimal. (Such conversations would already have been reported in the press to boot.)

There's no evidence the papers have any material by which the FBI attests to such conversations with Steele.

And, yes, factual affidavits do often simply attach documents and explain what the document is -- "Attached hereto as Exhibit A are notes made by Mr. Steele of his investigative findings ..."

No, we wouldn't. Virtually nothing from the warrant application has leaked.


That's because nothing in it is favorable to FBI/DOJ. If it was, it would have leaked long ago.
   151. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5623695)
I'd go so far as to suggest that DJT won *because* he insulted pretty much everyone, from the Mexican rapists to the bleeding out of her whatever journalists. I wish politics hadn't devolved to this level of juvenile behavior, but suggesting that the D's comments are the problem is simply historically ignorant.


Do you know who Trump didn't insult? A particularly key demographic known as "voters".

Trump insults individuals with wild abandon, and he occasionally insults entire foreign countries and their nationals, but he doesn't insult significant US voter blocs.
   152. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5623697)
Do you know who Trump didn't insult? A particularly key demographic known as white male "voters".


FTFY
   153. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5623698)
Trump won the white women's vote, too. I know you and yours are pretending otherwise, but still.
   154. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5623700)
McCarthy is either outright lying, or he is so sloppy that he cannot be relied on. We often talk, as McCarthy does, about "the dossier," but a dossier, by its very nature, is a collection of reports, not a unified whole. Steele did use the collection of words that McCarthy quotes him as having used, but Steele did not say them about "the dossier." Those are all quotes about one specific document, the December 2016 memo that he wrote.

The careful reader will note that the FBI applied for the FISA warrant on Page in October 2016. Buzzfeed may have included the December 2016 memo when it published its report in January 2017, but the December 2016 memo was -- I can assure you, despite (like McCarthy) not having seen the warrant application -- not part of the October 2016 application.
Eh, you seem to be a bit loosy in this instance, David.

Here are the first two paragraphs of the excerpt:
In fact, they kept telling the FISA court he was reliable even after Steele himself admitted to a British court that his dossier wasn’t at all reliable.

What’s that? Am I kidding? No.
Just because the dossier involved more than one report doesn't mean that a fatally flawed report has no impact on another one he submitted. And in any event, "they kept telling the FISA report" is a reference to the FISA warrant applications sought *after* the one in October.
   155. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5623702)
Trump won the white women vote, too.


By a lower proportion than did Mitt Romney or George W Bush.

And unlike Romney or W - if you break down by age, he won those OVER 45 and lost those under 45.... again, unlike Romney or W.
   156. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5623704)
That's because nothing in it is favorable to FBI/DOJ. If it was, it would have leaked long ago.
That seems pretty clear. Everything else of that sort mysteriously leaked.
   157. dlf Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5623705)
Do you know who Trump didn't insult? A particularly key demographic known as "voters".

Trump insults individuals with wild abandon, and he occasionally insults entire foreign countries and their nationals, but he doesn't insult significant US voter blocs.


Before the Iowa caucuses "#BenCarson is now leading in the #polls in #Iowa. Too much #Monsanto in the #corn creates issues in the brain? #Trump #GOP."
   158. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5623706)
By all means, though, Trumpkins...

I heartily encourage you to keep leaning on the 2016 exit breakdowns where your boy managed 44% of the vote. Please do.
   159. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5623708)
That's because nothing in it is favorable to FBI/DOJ. If it was, it would have leaked long ago.
That seems pretty clear. Everything else of that sort mysteriously leaked.


Of course. It's pretty clear. Because reasons.
   160. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5623709)
The entirety of Trump is based upon grievance mongering and hating the "other"...

Mmmmmm.... irony. It's not just for breakfast anymore!

I see somebody has an Alanis Morissette tune rumbling around his head...


Right. Because the side that won't shut up about white privilege, microaggressions, black bodies, toxic masculinity, the evils of stale pale males and heteronormativity, bitter clingers, legions of KKKlansmen hiding behind every rock, the terrifying threat of "christianists", etc. has nothing to do with grievance mongering and hating the "other".

That's what makes the Trump years so amusing yet baffling. What did you people THINK would happen? I mean seriously, for people who never stop patting themselves on the back for how smart and enlightened they are, how could you not see it coming?
   161. dlf Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5623710)
That seems pretty clear. Everything else of that sort mysteriously leaked.


What were the leaks before the Flynn, Manafort, Gates, and Papa indictments/pleas?
   162. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5623711)
Trump won the white women vote, too.

By a lower proportion than did Mitt Romney or George W Bush.
And unlike Romney or W - if you break down by age, he won those OVER 45 and lost those under 45.... again, unlike Romney or W.



You know who's certainly noticed all of that? Kirsten Gillibrand.
   163. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5623715)
Because reasons.


No, because the DOJ and FBI have institutional reasons.
   164. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5623716)
Right. Because the side that won't shut up about white privilege, microaggressions, black bodies, toxic masculinity, the evils of stale pale males and heteronormativity, bitter clingers, legions of KKKlansmen hiding behind every rock, the terrifying threat of "christianists", etc. has nothing to do with grievance mongering and hating the "other".


Feminazis, welfare queens, gay pedophiles, etc, etc.

   165. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5623717)
No, because the DOJ and FBI have institutional reasons.


Right.

Deep State reasons.
   166. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5623719)
What were the leaks before the Flynn, Manafort, Gates, and Papa indictments/pleas?
There were 15+ months of leaks coming out of Justice and the Bureau unfavorable to the Trump campaign, transition, and administration. And while there no leak with regard to Papadopoulos, ink was spilled pertaining to the legal issues facing Flynn and Manafort, and possibly Gates.
   167. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5623720)

Just because the dossier involved more than one report doesn't mean that a fatally flawed report has no impact on another one he submitted.
Setting aside that you have cleverly substituted "fatally flawed" for "unverified," and setting aside that it does in fact mean that, the point is that McCarthy claimed that Steele "admitted" something that he did not in fact admit.

If one wants to argue what you did here: "Steele admitted that one of his memos is unverified, which calls into question the reliability of his other memos," that's one thing. It's a YMMV argument. But what one can't do is argue, as McCarthy did, "Steele admitted that all of his memos are unverified." Especially not by putting words in quotation marks and pretending they were said about the dossier.
And in any event, "they kept telling the FISA report" is a reference to the FISA warrant applications sought *after* the one in October.
Is there any evidence at all that the FBI ever had the December 2016 memo? Or that they attached it a future warrant application? Nunes and Grassley don't say that. (Remember, this is after the FBI ended their relationship with Steele.) (And you really don't want to focus on those renewal applications, because -- as I've noted -- those applications were after the dossier's origins were public.)
   168. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5623722)
There were 15+ months of leaks unfavorable to the Trump campaign, transition, and his administration. And while there no leak with regard to Papadopoulos, ink was spilled pertaining to the legal issues facing Flynn, Manafort, and Gates.


Yeah... because it was a big secret that Paul Manafort was a Kremlin stooge prior to his indictment. A YUGE secret! Why, no one saw that one coming.

Did you ever consider that maybe the Trump campaign, transition, and administration are just... you know... unfavorable?

Or should we tune in Celebrity Big Brother to see what deep thinker Omerosa has to contribute? Or perhaps wait until the next Rob Porter drops? Check up on the current whereabouts of Sloppy Steve?

But no, I'm sure you're right... it's not just a big dumpster fire of the ridiculous and unfit. It's all a fiction of leaks.
   169. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5623724)
We're talking about people who have lived their entire lives bemoaning the coast elites, the Hollyweird people, the gay agenda pushers, the welfare queens who are inevitably urban blacks, the educated poindexters with their fancy degrees and colleges.


Right, right, right... Rapists, fags, feminazis, "San Francisco values", "Chicago politics", and all sorts of sundry terms that would get nannied didn't exist until 2016.


Feminazis, welfare queens, gay pedophiles, etc, etc.


It's a sign of how vigorously we've scrubbed the discourse of the Great War of Adventure in Iraq that you could go to this well three times and never even mention the fact that anyone who opposed the Great War of Adventure was routinely derided as a terrorist, terrorist sympathizer, "objectively pro-Saddam", on the other side, and someone who hated America and didn't support our troops, giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
   170. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5623726)
What were the leaks before the Flynn, Manafort, Gates, and Papa indictments/pleas?

There were 15+ months of leaks coming out of Justice and the Bureau unfavorable to the Trump campaign, transition, and administration. And while there no leak with regard to Papadopoulos, ink was spilled pertaining to the legal issues facing Flynn and Manafort, and possibly Gates.


Oh, and has no more "ink been spilled" about anyone else in the World White House Federation Juan? What a foolish distraction on your part.
   171. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5623727)
If one wants to argue what you did here: "Steele admitted that one of his memos is unverified, which calls into question the reliability of his other memos," that's one thing. It's a YMMV argument. But what one can't do is argue, as McCarthy did, "Steele admitted that all of his memos are unverified." Especially not by putting words in quotation marks and pretending they were said about the dossier.
Your initial claim is a YMMV, IMHO. (LMAO).
(And you really don't want to focus on those renewal applications, because -- as I've noted -- those applications were after the dossier's origins were public.)
Wait, what? In January and April 2017, it was not yet public that Fusion GPS had hired the "former British intelligence agent," let alone that Team Clinton and the DNC had bankrolled the cost of the operation. Comey hadn't even publicly referred to the dossier as "salacious and unverified."
   172. Lassus Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5623729)
Before the Iowa caucuses "#BenCarson is now leading in the #polls in #Iowa. Too much #Monsanto in the #corn creates issues in the brain? #Trump #GOP."

Someone will get right on this one, I'm sure.
   173. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5623732)
Wait, what? In January and April 2017, it was not yet public that Fusion GPS had hired the "former British intelligence agent," let alone that Team Clinton and the DNC had bankrolled the cost of the operation.
This is wrong. On January 10, 2017, Buzzfeed reported that the dossier was "was prepared for political opponents of Trump by a person who is understood to be a former British intelligence agent." On January 11, 2017, the NYT (and WSJ, IIRC) named Steele as that agent, identified Fusion GPS as his employer, and stated that Fusion was doing this work for "Democratic supporters of Hillary Clinton."
   174. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5623738)
One other point I want to stress: law enforcement lying to (or materially misleading) a judge to secure a warrant would be ethically and legally problematic. But law enforcement presenting to the judge a warrant application that is insufficient to establish probable cause is not ethically or legally problematic.
So you're acknowledging that the former scenario may have happened here? Because when applying a totality-of-the-circumstances test, failing to provide a description of sufficient detail as to who collected the reports consisting of the dossier -- a former foreign intelligence agent who's morphed into an advocate/lobbyist working on behalf of Team Clinton and the DNC -- sure carries a materially misleading whiff.

As for Illinois v. Gates, Rehnquist pointed out that the reliability of informants was "highly relevant." So again, forget Steele's credibility, the FBI knew practically nothing about his informants, as this was third and fourth-level hearsay. Heck, where is the evidence that Steele knew the identities of those folks in Russia who supposedly uttered the allegations that found their way into his report?
   175. Ishmael Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5623739)
I've been reading Darrel Moellendorf's blogging about his experience as a stem cell transplant recipient to treat his secondary myelofibrosis. He began writing a year ago, and posted his final entry on 4th February.

He survived.

It seems fair to ask what an examined illness can teach. I hesitate to say much that might be conceived as advice because I realize that it could have been much worse, indeed that it often is much worse for people with diseases similar to mine. I had it comparatively easy. The oncological psycho-therapist in the transplant unit told me of a patient who had been there, mostly in isolation, for 6 months. I didn’t exactly earn an advanced certificate in suffering and staring down the grim reaper till he blinked.

True, most people do not engage in activities that stand a 40 percent chance of killing them. But, in light of the alternative, most anyone would have taken the risks that I did. I did nothing remarkable in that regard. I don’t at all stand out by my choice. I also did not “beat” cancer. All I did was follow my doctors’ orders, more or less. I haven’t honed a talent for surviving, although that would be nice.

My illness and recovery has, however, been an occasion to think about living well, even under the threat of death. I never felt particularly mad about what befell me. And if I had, I would have hoped that I would have realized the absurdity of that since in my case there was no person or no agency to blame. I’ve felt nothing but appreciation for most of my doctors and all of my nurses. I found the experience of putting myself wholly into the trust of others for my care caused me to feel tremendous gratitude for their competence and good will. I also feel enormous gratitude to the stranger who was willing to donate his stem cells, and thereby save my life.

And I am grateful for the fine system of government-financed health insurance in Germany. Systems like the German one are pillars of post-war European social democracy. Their importance both for what they do, and what they say about what humanity is capable of, cannot be over-emphasized. Not only do these systems provide excellent healthcare for everyone regardless of income, but they show that political mobilization in the service of intelligent institutional design can promote the well-being of everyone.

Driven by fear, greed, glory, and the lust for power, humans kick up wicked whirlwinds of violence and destruction. Even as I write, parts of the world seem trapped in desperate civil wars, conditions of life described by Hobbes as, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Often these end only when the war-makers suffer complete exhaustion, populations have been decimated, and survivors have been scattered as desperate refugees far from home. Who has not been tempted by cynicism when witnessing the pain and despair that humans are capable of creating? But the pillars of social democracy provide evidence that intelligent design and investment can produce institutions that channel human motivation for the broad benefit of humanity. I have no doubt that my doctors and nurses are caring people. They are motivated to help others. But they are also interested in making a living, enjoying vacations, supporting their families, advancing their careers, and being recognized for their contribution to science and to their clinic. Social democratic institutions have been able to harness human motivation for tremendous benefit.

In preparation for the end of the US Civil War Abraham Lincoln reminded Americans that they can live as friends and not only as enemies, and that doing so requires nothing less than activating the better angels of our nature. Cynicism is a creeping disease that steals hearts already suffering pain and loss. It is also sometimes a fashionable stance of the well-educated who have known very little about such loss. The better angels are too weak, the cynic sneers. One tonic against the corrosive influence of cynicism is to keep alive in the mystic chords of memory our tremendous accomplishments, including the development, advancement, and application of medical science to the benefit of humanity.

The project of living well isn’t just for the healthy. Living well includes living well with disease, and eventually living well facing death. I asked BF to write the epilogue, if it came to that. But the blog will end now without the need for such an epilogue.

My illness was rare; my suffering was not. Being a patient is part of being alive. Nearly all of us go through it eventually. The virtues of patience, courage, trust, and hope serve us well. And a measure of good humor can’t hurt. All of that I’ve learned by experience, and perhaps I’ve also managed to convey it in these posts.


I recommend browsing the archive at On Being a Patient.
   176. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5623742)
I mean, continuing to call people names and attack them relentlessly and hatefully might work in 2020 even though it failed in 2016. It's not the way I'd bet, but sure; it could work.


Kill 'em all. Let god sort 'em out.
   177. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5623743)
Right. Because the side that won't shut up about white privilege, microaggressions, black bodies, toxic masculinity, the evils of stale pale males and heteronormativity, bitter clingers, legions of KKKlansmen hiding behind every rock, the terrifying threat of "christianists", etc. has nothing to do with grievance mongering and hating the "other".


This one first.
   178. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5623745)
It's a sign of how vigorously we've scrubbed the discourse of the Great War of Adventure in Iraq that you could go to this well three times and never even mention the fact that anyone who opposed the Great War of Adventure was routinely derided as a terrorist, terrorist sympathizer, "objectively pro-Saddam", on the other side, and someone who hated America and didn't support our troops, giving aid and comfort to our enemies.


Hey, some of us here were called out as essentially traitors to the entire Western Civilization for not being afraid enough of ISIS, Ebola, and any number of other scary monsters. Those on the right calling out anyone for demonizing their opponents is the most projecting projection that was ever projected.
   179. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5623747)
if any culture ever had the Master Race thing going, it's the Japanese.


There's a reason TGF is invested in promoting it as "successful."
   180. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5623748)
150

That's because nothing in it is favorable to FBI/DOJ. If it was, it would have leaked long ago.


Now you're inventing things.

EDIT: To be fair, you may very well be correct, but we just. don't. know.
   181. Stormy JE Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5623751)
This is wrong. On January 10, 2017, Buzzfeed reported that the dossier was "was prepared for political opponents of Trump by a person who is understood to be a former British intelligence agent." On January 11, 2017, the NYT (and WSJ, IIRC) named Steele as that agent, identified Fusion GPS as his employer, and stated that Fusion was doing this work for "Democratic supporters of Hillary Clinton."
You're right. OTOH, Team Hillary and the DNC vigorously denied to Maggie Haberman and other reporters that they had played *any* role in financing or providing any other support to Fusion GPS.
   182. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5623753)
You're right. OTOH,


JUANABOUT....
   183. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5623754)
if any culture ever had the Master Race thing going, it's the Japanese.

There's a reason TGF is invested in promoting it as "successful."


You never know, he could be a basement-dwelling weeabo with a full-sized anime body pillow.
   184. Greg K Posted: February 12, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5623755)
Driven by fear, greed, glory, and the lust for power, humans kick up wicked whirlwinds of violence and destruction. Even as I write, parts of the world seem trapped in desperate civil wars, conditions of life described by Hobbes as, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Often these end only when the war-makers suffer complete exhaustion, populations have been decimated, and survivors have been scattered as desperate refugees far from home. Who has not been tempted by cynicism when witnessing the pain and despair that humans are capable of creating? But the pillars of social democracy provide evidence that intelligent design and investment can produce institutions that channel human motivation for the broad benefit of humanity. I have no doubt that my doctors and nurses are caring people. They are motivated to help others. But they are also interested in making a living, enjoying vacations, supporting their families, advancing their careers, and being recognized for their contribution to science and to their clinic. Social democratic institutions have been able to harness human motivation for tremendous benefit.

As much as there is a general consensus in support of social democracy (at least where I'm from), it's usually an unspoken consensus. It's helpful to have the sentiment articulated like this.
   185. Greg K Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5623759)
By way of update somewhat related to the current discussion....If Omineca Greg is around, I did subscribe to one of those Asian streaming sites (Viki.com).

Started the moon and sun show with all the funny hats (mistaken identity based on dress was of course a key component in the first episode!)

But I've been spending more time on I Am Not a Robot. Its plot is about as Asian as it gets. Young, handsome, attractive, billionaire recluse finds that one of the many businesses he owns is that of a struggling scientist working on an AI robot. Just as he's about to give the robot a trial run to see if it's worth investing more resources in, the robot gets damaged OH NO!

Luckily the scientist calls up the ex-girlfriend he modeled the robot on and gets her to pose as a robot for the rich guy.

I've only just started, but I feel like I have a handle on where this is going.
   186. reech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5623764)
   187. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5623769)
You never know, he could be a basement-dwelling weeabo with a full-sized anime body pillow.


Alas, no waifu pillow, but One Punch Man is pretty much the best thing I've found on Netflix in ages. The hilarious yet poignant story of a man who wanted to become a superhero and succeeds beyond his wildest dreams, only to wind up battling ennui and depression.
   188. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5623772)
What were the leaks before the Flynn, Manafort, Gates, and Papa indictments/pleas?

There were plenty of leaks about Flynn's conversations with the Russian Ambassador, made with no regard for the damage to national security. That's some basic sources & methods info.
   189. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5623773)
#186:
Better luck next time


The anthrax is being tested for possible traces of the Trump family.
   190. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5623775)
186. reech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5623764)
Better luck next time

More violent eliminationist rhetoric from the left.
   191. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5623776)
There were plenty of leaks about Flynn's conversations with the Russian Ambassador, made with no regard for the damage to national security. That's some basic sources & methods info.


Because up until that point, nobody would have imagined a foreign ambassador well-known as a spymaster might have a party line.
   192. dlf Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5623777)
I'm all for a good joke, but have never found the non-political spouse or children to be a fair target. DJTjr, Jared, and the daughter whose boobs DJT discussed with Stern are fine if you are into those things, but not Jr.'s spouse or Tiffany. Basically, Chelsea was an ok target campaigning for her HRC, but wasn't an ok target as a kid when WJC was in office.
   193. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5623779)
Because up until that point, nobody would have imagined a foreign ambassador well-known as a spymaster might have a party line.

There is a difference between suspecting you might be bugged and knowing it, and knowing how ineffective your countermeasures might be.
   194. Swoboda is freedom Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5623782)
if any culture ever had the Master Race thing going, it's the Japanese.

You forgot about the sexism. A good friend of mine worked for one of the big banks and they sent him to Tokyo for a few years. He hired a bunch of extremely capable women who found that they were very limited in jobs they could get at a Japanese firm.
   195. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5623783)
I thought it was clear what I was arguing, but to spell it out: I think toning down the hate-filled rhetoric and bigot calling would serve your side well, yes. Which includes directing the same towards Trump himself, as at this point any criticism of Trump is seen by his supporters as a criticism of them.

Now, his supporters are lost to you; they will never vote D in a million years. I get that. But expanding out from them are people who might possibly vote D (or stay home), who you're alienating with the hate-filled rhetoric. At least, from the way I see it. Obviously you'll disagree, which is fine.
Required.
   196. PepTech Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5623793)
You forgot about the sexism. A good friend of mine worked for one of the big banks and they sent him to Tokyo for a few years. He hired a bunch of extremely capable women who found that they were very limited in jobs they could get at a Japanese firm.
Yes, that too. Men on the subway openly reading manga that would make goats blush, fondling in passing as they could get away with it. Women still single at 25 are derisively labeled "Christmas Cake", no longer desirable, past their date.
   197. The Good Face Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5623794)
Better luck next time

More violent eliminationist rhetoric from the left.


And when the tables are turned they'll be shocked and uncomprehending. It'll be just as sad yet amusing as their reactions every other time their tactics are used against them.
   198. Lassus Posted: February 12, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5623798)
Yes, that too. Men on the subway openly reading manga that would make goats blush, fondling in passing as they could get away with it. Women still single at 25 are derisively labeled "Christmas Cake", no longer desirable, past their date.

Again, feature, not bug, to the identifying and emulating parties.
   199. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5623806)
Yeah - I can definitely buy Peptech's take on living in Japan...

A good friend of mine is Japanese - his wife is Korean. About 10 years after they married - they moved back to Japan when he got a lucrative couldn't-pass-it-up job... and they/she especially was absolutely miserable. Virtually their entire socialization took place within the confines of the embassy club - and he lasted just long enough to get a different job that took them back to the states. His parents had emigrated when he was very young - and while they weren't at all stuck in any sort of "old ways" sort of thinking at all (i.e., they were thrilled with their daughter-in-law), nor was he unfamiliar at all with traveling to Japan, they strongly warned him against the culture shock the couple would experience. It was worse than they could have imagined.
   200. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: February 12, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5623807)
And when the tables are turned they'll be shocked and uncomprehending. It'll be just as sad yet amusing as their reactions every other time their tactics are used against them.


Heh, no - Trump and Trumpkin abilities to shock are all out of stock. It will be entirely comprehensible.
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