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Monday, February 12, 2018

OTP 12 February 2018: Jeff Samardzija explains why politics and baseball rarely mix

However, there were several curveballs that forced Giants’ players to think outside the box, including one from a fan who asked a trio that included catcher Buster Posey, reliever Cory Gearrin and starting pitcher Jeff Samardzija whether they think baseball players should have a role in voicing their political opinions like football and basketball players have in recent years.

The question temporarily stumped Gearrin and Posey, so as his teammates waited, Samardzija decided to jump in and share his perspective.

“I don’t think so, not necessarily because we’re here to entertain you guys. Every time we step on the field, it’s important,” Samardzija said, before pausing temporarily while a loud round of applause petered out.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 2005 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, san francisco giants, spring training

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   1601. Greg K Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5626357)
I imagine you'd get a fair amount of "teacher thought it would be a good idea to wave a gun around to break up a fight" scenarios as well.

Things can escalate quickly with teenagers and it doesn't seem like a great idea to have instruments of further escalation at your immediate disposal.
   1602. Lassus Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5626358)
Hey, alcoholics, will any non-connoisseur vodka drinker care if I mix 4 oz. of Absolut with around 32 oz. of Reyka? I need shelf space.
   1603. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5626359)
1) there is no such thing as a vodka connoisseur. There’s just Hayden who refuses to deal with her daddy issues and hides it behind nonstop cosmos. Blend away. Literally no one will ever know.

2) the idea of arming school teachers is the stupidest goddammed thing I’ve heard in a long long time. Have you idiots ever met teachers?!?
   1604. SteveF Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5626360)
Hey, alcoholics, will any non-connoisseur vodka drinker care if I mix 4 oz. of Absolut with around 32 oz. of Reyka? I need shelf space.

There are connoisseur vodka drinkers?

Edit: Coke to Rickey.
   1605. McCoy Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5626361)
Surprisingly vodka drinkers can notice the difference. That is if they drink their vodka straight or pretty straight.

I've seen it a few times as back in the old days I would marry the various bottles of strangers and invariably get someone who complained
   1606. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5626362)
Surprisingly vodka drinkers can notice the difference. That is if they drink their vodka straight or pretty straight.

I've seen it a few times as back in the old days I would marry the various bottles of strangers and invariably get someone who complained

Makes sense. You have some that taste like anti-freeze, and have the kick of a mule. Then you have others, that taste like industrial engine degreaser, and may make you at least temporarily blind. And then for the more girly drinks, you have the kind that tastes like nail polish remover, and will likely leave you passed out on a snowy porch in the middle of winter.

And I say this as somebody who drinks more vodka than any other kind of spirit.
   1607. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5626363)
teachers would probably shoot more kids than the original shooter

That's the salient thing about "campus carry." I am allowed to carry concealed in the classroom, and I am sure I have students who carry concealed handguns – I know that some did so long before we had "campus carry." Most of the time this is not an issue because most people aren't deranged.

Put an "active shooter" in the mix, and you've not only got teachers shooting bystanders, but you've almost certainly got cops showing up and shooting everybody who's armed. This has to give you pause when you contemplate playing Shane in your classroom.

As deja was saying (minus the odd remark about janitors), putting a cop in every school would be smart – but I am (cynically) sure most districts would run a cost/benefit analysis and conclude that the struck-by-lightning chance of a shooter in one school is not worth the investment in so many of those taking-taker public employees.
   1608. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5626364)
And as to the vodka question, I haven't had vodka in the house in years – used to keep a half-pint in the freezer in case of sore throat, and then realized that Johnnie Walker Red, which I actually like, would treat the throat just as well.

After our monthly parties, La D. and I do sometimes pour a little bit of leftover red wine into the leftover bottles of white. This can sometimes make a very passable rosé. Occasionally it's not so passable. Might depend on the quality of the stuff you had to start with, in the sense that the worse the wine, the less it suffers by random mixing.
   1609. SteveF Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5626365)
Johnnie Walker Red

rosé

Monster.
   1610. Lassus Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5626366)
Thanks, guys.
   1611. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5626370)
Part of where one falls with respect to viewing Trump boils down to self confidence: If you're confident in your life and you think that you control your own outcomes and happiness, you don't care that Trump is in the White House.

Yes, this is a perfect description of all those white voters who seethe with resentment about having their jobs stolen by immigrants and affirmative action, and their culture being under siege by "political correctness". Nobody's more confident about controlling their own lives than these folks, so that's why they support Trump!


Andy, as a fellow business-owner and entrepreneur do you think you’ve taken more responsibility for your own life and financial autonomy than, say, a pampered fancy lad whose well-curated life has left them entirely insulated from the realities of the peasantry, safely ensconced in a swanky NYC fortress, filling out government paperwork for a living?
   1612. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5626371)
The problem with putting a cop in every school to stop potential shooters - besides the direct financial cost - is that school shootings are incredibly rare. Which means that 99.9999999999% of those cops 99.9999989999% of the time will have nothing to do. Which will lead to mission creep. This isn't speculative; many schools already have cops permanently stationed there - not for these types of school shootings, but for general crime and violence. And once those cops are present, everything becomes a police matter. Things that should be resolved with detention and a call to parents are instead "resolved" with arrests. This is bad.

Moreover, a cop stationed at the school is more security theater than security. Put one easily identified person there for security and a shooter just knows to take that person out first. It's much more effective if a potential shooter does not know who is armed.
   1613. SouthSideRyan Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5626373)
Shouldn’t we also mention how there was an armed security guard on campus at this shooting?
   1614. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5626374)
Those are fair points, David. It's just that if people want to do something that might actually have an effect on school shootings, cops in schools would have some practical effect (in terms of deterrence and response). Politically, it will not happen (perhaps outside of a very few small and well-heeled districts).
   1615. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5626376)
Well, no to the latter; lots of poor schools have a cop ("school resource officer") stationed there already. And I think politically it's more likely to happen because (a) police unions will like it; (b) it doesn't offend gun rights supporters; (c) it won't alarm gun scaredycats who think that people with guns = inevitable shootouts; (d) it doesn't require legislative action beyond the additional appropriations; (e) security theater always wins.
   1616. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5626377)
I see Ray and Jason see nothing happening with Mueller. I guess it is time for a history lesson.

The Russia Investigation Is Moving Really Freaking Fast

The indictment is also the latest sign that Mueller’s investigation is still moving quickly and ambitiously in pressing charges against those involved.

Our analysis of special counsel probes in the modern era, starting in 1979, 1 puts Mueller’s investigation in select company for producing criminal charges at all — a majority of the investigations over the past four decades ended without charges being filed against anyone.

The total number of individuals charged in the investigation is now up to 18, 2 including an indictment and two guilty pleas from last fall. One of the defendants from last fall, Rick Gates, is reportedly finalizing a plea deal, which would signal that he’s ready to cooperate with the investigation.

Historically, major special counsel investigations that have led to charges have lasted for years, with indictments and guilty pleas trickling out as an inquiry gains momentum. So more charges seem likely to come.


But sure, nothing to see here. Unlikely to end up anywhere. Yawn.


Heh. Anyway, as to the specifics, I personally have never argued any one version - Collusion by Trump on a Sunday - so I won't be disappointed in any event. Given the charges and counter charges on both sides from both sides I am glad there is a non-political investigation which is on going and that I trust.
   1617. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5626379)
Not that it's a novel theory, but here's the former WSJ and WP military reporter Tom Ricks on the bottom line of how the Russia investigation ties into Trump:
My bet is that oligarchs forgave many millions of dollars in debts & [Trump] failed to report that on tax returns, as is required.

If nothing else, it would certainly help to explain Trump's refusal to cough up those tax returns. Hopefully Mueller will be looking into those returns as the investigation proceeds.
   1618. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5626380)
I see Ray and Jason see nothing happening with Mueller.

Portrait of Sergeants RayJE and Trump in their current stage of denial.
   1619. Lassus Posted: February 17, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5626381)
Black Panther was great fun. The action was pretty standard, but the setting and story and values were new and fresh. An African utopia realized was a nice piece of work, both revelatory and heartbreaking.

Also, the orchestral score was excellent.
   1620. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5626386)
The problem with putting a cop in every school to stop potential shooters - besides the direct financial cost - is that school shootings are incredibly rare. Which means that 99.9999999999% of those cops 99.9999989999% of the time will have nothing to do.


I can only speak for what I see in Long Island, but many cops here generally have tons of downtime and they can just as easily do that in an office at a school as they can in the main precinct house. If it so happens that their presence creates an additional deterrent to kids acting like a-holes, that's just a plus. As to additional cost, I don't see it being significant, at least for suburban school districts where it seems the majority of these events occur. What is the marginal cost between sitting in a precinct house vs. sitting in a patrol car vs. sitting in an office in a school? I think modern communication technology bridges most of the gaps. The cost, at worst, is a minimal factor.

   1621. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5626388)
Moreover, a cop stationed at the school is more security theater than security. Put one easily identified person there for security and a shooter just knows to take that person out first. It's much more effective if a potential shooter does not know who is armed.


It should essentially be a mini-precinct - not just a cop, but several.
   1622. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5626390)
As deja was saying (minus the odd remark about janitors)


The point I was so poorly trying to make was that, at least in the schools that I am familiar with in Long Island, teachers are overwhelmingly female and there aren't a lot of male dominated positions, which was my point. I should have said gym teachers.

I accept the criticism but I can tell you I have been at a number of HS sporting events where a parent or parents lose their minds and go after coaches or each other and have seen janitors step in to separate the loons and escort people off the premises.
   1623. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5626392)

It should essentially be a mini-precinct - not just a cop, but several.
Why don't we just move classes to the grounds of the state penitentiary, just to prevent these events that almost never happen anyway?
   1624. McCoy Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5626393)

I can only speak for what I see in Long Island, but many cops here generally have tons of downtime and they can just as easily do that in an office at a school as they can in the main precinct house. If it so happens that their presence creates an additional deterrent to kids acting like a-holes, that's just a plus. As to additional cost, I don't see it being significant, at least for suburban school districts where it seems the majority of these events occur. What is the marginal cost between sitting in a precinct house vs. sitting in a patrol car vs. sitting in an office in a school? I think modern communication technology bridges most of the gaps. The cost, at worst, is a minimal factor.


Except police presence is only effective if it is seen and if it occasionally acts. A cop sitting in an office somewhere in the guidance council area banging away on a keyboard isn't going to deter anyone. A cop walking the halls and being visible will prevent the low hanging fruits.

One thing most people miss when talking about a cop at a school is that schools nowadays are massive building holding thousands and thousands of people sprawled out over a great area. These schools aren't inner city schools built on a city block or less back in the 1930's. A cop in a school is basically a needle in a haystack. In the latest shooting there was a huge part of the school that was completely unaware that an active shooter was going nuts inside the school.
   1625. Sebastian Posted: February 17, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5626394)
Which means that 99.9999999999% of those cops 99.9999989999% of the time will have nothing to do.

Are you an Englishman or just retarded?
   1626. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5626396)
In terms of what might be done to prevent some mass shootings, here's one idea that a few states have already put into place. Obviously it's not a magic bullet (no pun intended), but it isn't something that requires arming teachers or stationing multiple policemen in every school.

Five states allow guns to be seized before someone can commit violence
In the wake of massacres similar to Wednesday’s school shooting in Parkland, Fla., a small number of states have passed “red flag laws” that allow the seizure of guns before people can commit acts of violence.

California, Washington, Oregon, Indiana and Connecticut have statutes that can be used to temporarily take guns away from people a judge deems a threat to themselves or others. Lawmakers in 18 other states — including Florida — plus the District of Columbia have proposed similar measures.

At the federal level, Rep. Salud Carbajal (D-Calif.) and Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) introduced legislation last May that would encourage states to adopt the approach.

Mental illness, escalating threats, substance abuse and domestic violence are among the circumstances in which a judge can order weapon restrictions under the statutes.

“This morning I heard the sheriff [in Parkland] lament the fact that he did not have the tools to remove the firearms from the shooter,” Joshua Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said Thursday. “Had he lived in one of those states where this law is in place, he would have had the tools, and this shooting may have been averted.”

The nation’s patchwork of federal and state gun laws mainly involves background checks and actions to prevent people who pose a threat from buying firearms. The approach of the red flag laws is to seize guns from people who have them and to restrict their access until they are no longer deemed dangerous....

The laws allow family members or law enforcement officers to ask a judge for a “gun violence restraining order” or an “extreme risk protection order” against someone who behaves the way 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz, the alleged Florida gunman, did in recent years.

According to news reports, Cruz killed squirrels with a pellet gun, trained his dogs to attack a neighbor’s piglets, posted on Insta­gram about guns and killing animals and eventually threatened at least one teen. He showed signs of depression and had been treated at a mental health clinic....
   1627. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5626397)
Do you:

A. Hope your kid is in a classroom with an armed teacher; or
B. Hope your kid is in a classroom with an unarmed teacher.

The question sort of answers itself
C. Hope your kid's armed teacher isn't the one shooting kids.
   1628. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5626398)
A cop in a school is basically a needle in a haystack. In the latest shooting there was a huge part of the school that was completely unaware that an active shooter was going nuts inside the school.
Regardless of the size of the school, your talking a dramatic difference in response time.
   1629. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5626399)

You won't agree to pay for kids to have preschool, books or supplies, but you'll pay for teachers to have a gun.

Okay.


Not sure where your false premise comes from, but your entire response is a sideshow.
   1630. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5626400)
Why don't we just move classes to the grounds of the state penitentiary, just to prevent these events that almost never happen anyway?
They seem to be almost never happening at a substantially increased rate, and setting aside 400-800 sf in a school for a police office is a far cry from what you are suggesting. The fact that the odds are admittedly and fortunately slim that you or someone you care about will be in a school shooting situation doesn't mean that you don't take relatively easy and inexpensive steps to create deterrents.
   1631. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5626401)
Country's mental health is so ###### that arming janitors to stop slaughters in schools is given as an idea worthy of consideration.


This is part of the issue: People don't want to believe that we live in a country where this could perhaps be necessary. But that's where we are as a country, at the moment.
   1632. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5626402)
Except police presence is only effective if it is seen and if it occasionally acts. A cop sitting in an office somewhere in the guidance council area banging away on a keyboard isn't going to deter anyone. A cop walking the halls and being visible will prevent the low hanging fruits.
There's no reason that a police presence can't be in a conspicuous area. But even if you're premise is correct, you want a response time of 90 seconds or 9 minutes? Again, at a very minimal cost.
   1633. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5626403)
Why don't we just move classes to the grounds of the state penitentiary,


Because that's stupid and unnecessary.

just to prevent these events that almost never happen anyway?


Uh, because part of the reason they don't happen that much is because a lot of schools have armed cops? Kind of a nutty deal to suggest that a deterrent be eliminated because it's helping deter what we want it to deter, right?

The problem with putting a cop in every school to stop potential shooters - besides the direct financial cost - is that school shootings are incredibly rare. Which means that 99.9999999999% of those cops 99.9999989999% of the time will have nothing to do.


Uh, they're doing something 100% of the time -- they're guarding the front door of the school at gunpoint.

My son's middle school is one of the best public schools in Manhattan and has an armed NYPD cop at the front door. None of your dilettantish imaginings about "mission creep" and the rest actually happen.



   1634. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5626404)
It's one of the 999,999 days of the million when no maniac is on the loose with a weapon. Do you:

A. Hope your kid is in a classroom with a gun and minimal supervision
B. Hope your kid is in a classroom with no gun and minimal supervision

In all likelihood, unless being a teacher was primarily a combat operations training job, the teachers would probably shoot more kids than the original shooter. The only thing more accurate than enemy fire is friendly fire.

Really, if you want a technological solution rather than a sociological solution, put more fire escapes and such into schools, so kids can't get pinned down in classrooms. Kids won't be safer in a hail of gunfire than around a spitting of gunfire. If there's gunfire, by far the safest thing to do is leave.


I don't object to your solution as an alternative. I think the time has come to do something tangible and address the problem head on rather than the same old tired response, which has been to wax on ideologically about your side of the 2nd Amendment issue which (a) never results in anything being done, and (b) is a non-solution to the problem anyway, because it doesn't address the actual root cause of the problem.

As to arming teachers: the problem with these shootings has been that the shooter gets the equivalent of a power play in hockey: he gets to roam around shooting people for 12 minutes until the cop show up. And even after the cops show up there's more time to assess the situation and figure out a course of action. OTOH if several teachers were armed then (a) it serves as a general deterrent and (b) the only way to really combat this right away is to play the percentages: several teachers with guns and at least one of them will happen to be near where the shooter is at that moment.

Will there be friendly fire victims? Yes. But we're not trying to minimize the number of friendly fire victims per se; we're trying to minimize the total number of victims. Cruz killed 17 people and wounded X others and terrorized Y others. Maybe the total number could have been 6 dead instead of 17.

--

As an aside: off the top of my head it seems the school shooter profiles as male, not female.
   1635. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5626406)
In terms of what might be done to prevent some mass shootings, here's one idea that a few states have already put into place. Obviously it's not a magic bullet (no pun intended), but it isn't something that requires arming teachers or stationing multiple policemen in every school.

Five states allow guns to be seized before someone can commit violence


This is the type of tribunal I mentioned yesterday, and it's obviously a good idea. I'd flip it around and make people have to affirmatively produce evidence of eligibility at the point of purchase. Then the proceeding is done to determine whether the "gun ID card" or whatever should be revoked or suspended.

Millions of people, of course, would never even bother to get the "gun ID card" since they have no desire to buy a gun.
   1636. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5626407)
My bet is that oligarchs forgave many millions of dollars in debts & [Trump] failed to report that on tax returns, as is required.

This sort of fact-free speculation pops up here from time to time, but it seems highly unlikely. That premise would require the Russians to have basically given Trump those millions long before he was in politics. Possible, in the "anything is possible" sense, but there's nothing suggesting it's at all likely. Real estate loans create a lien on the property that is recorded and publicly available - like a home mortgage. Trump's business dealings have been examined by the news media and his political rivals, and I don't recall any reports of loans from First Moscow Federal Savings & Loan, or even some unidentifiable entity such as the Caviar & Sturgeon Society. So, it doesn't look like Trump received anything untoward via any type of conventional real estate financing. Now, sure, the Russians could have just given Trump millions under-the-table or in the form of unsecured loans, but you could say the same "could have" about anyone. It's one of those conspiracy theories where the lack of evidence is cited as proof of how skillful the plotters are.
   1637. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5626408)
I don't object to your solution as an alternative. I think the time has come to do something tangible and address the problem head on rather than the same old tired response, which has been to wax on ideologically about your side of the 2nd Amendment issue which (a) never results in anything being done, and (b) is a non-solution to the problem anyway, because it doesn't address the actual root cause of the problem.


The problem with this is that the rhetoric and general weirdness/freakishness/unhingedness around Second Amendment absolutism -- particularly now with modern communications -- is a major part of the gun culture which in turn is "the actual root cause of the problem." (At least as much as a single root cause of the problem exists; the other root cause is mental illness.)
   1638. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5626409)
As an aside: off the top of my head it seems the school shooter profiles as male, not female.


I'm guessing that men would be more comfortable being armed in a school to provide protection than women. This has certainly been the case when this scenario was discussed with a number of school personnel that I know. By the way, as you could probably guess, they did not view this as a reasonable scenario.
   1639. Shredder Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5626410)
Do you:

A. Hope your kid is in a classroom with an armed teacher; or
B. Hope your kid is in a classroom with an unarmed teacher.

The question sort of answers itself
Considering that the gun in the classroom is almost certainly more likely do harm than it is to do any good, I'd agree that the question answers itself.
I'm guessing that men would be more comfortable being armed in a school than women. This has certainly been the case when this scenario was discussed with a number of school personnel that I know.
Well obviously. Women don't have the same insecurities about penis size.
   1640. BrianBrianson Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5626411)
Cruz killed 17 people and wounded X others and terrorized Y others. Maybe the total number could have been 6 dead instead of 17.


Yeah, but with stacks of armed teachers, and police turning up on dozens of people with guns hearing there's a shooting, it could also be 65.
   1641. SouthSideRyan Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5626412)
Again, why are people preaching armed guards as the solution when this school had an armed guard? We need a better ratio? How many armed guard per student?
   1642. Morty Causa Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5626413)
This is part of the issue: People don't want to believe that we live in a country where this could perhaps be necessary. But that's where we are as a country, at the moment.

"At the moment"? This has been an escalating necessity for quite a while now. Not that long ago, there were no cops in schools, grocery stores, supermarkets, department stores, hospitals, theaters, etc., and no metal detectors at city halls, courthouses, etc. It just keeps getting worse and worse. What changed? (And I mean, and escalation in both the violence and the reaction to it in terms of proposed and effective remedies that, it is hoped, would prevent and discourage the violence.)
   1643. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5626414)
In the Cruz situation, the cops should have gone to his house and asked him a bunch of questions and asked him to consent to a search of the house. If they'd found sufficient evidence of criminal activity of any kind, they could have gotten a search warrant and taken his guns. If he consented to a search of the house and he had weed or something they could have arrested him and taken his guns incident to the arrest.

And if it turned up empty, or he said he didn't consent, they should have gone back two days later and done exactly the same thing. And then two days after that. Rinse and repeat.

The idea that law enforcement can't do anything upon a tip like this is cookoo. (*) Keeping the massively-armed loons in the community who say they're going to shoot up a school, from shooting up a school, is what law enforcement DOES.

(*) And particularly cookoo coming from the same ideologue who insists that a bunch of made up third-hand hearsay in a "dossier" is sufficient evidence to bug and wiretap.
   1644. greenback slays lewks Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5626415)
Trump's business dealings have been examined by the news media and his political rivals, and I don't recall any reports of loans from First Moscow Federal Savings & Loan, or even some unidentifiable entity such as the Caviar & Sturgeon Society.

Perhaps true in the narrowest sense, but misleading, and probably dishonest. Deutsche Bank's proclivities for serving Trump and for laundering Russian money are well known. The level of connection between the two is currently the subject of investigation.
   1645. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5626416)
Again, as a teacher who could be armed if I wanted to be, I would worry about the far more likely scenario where I lose control of a weapon. Cops devote a lot of attention to making sure that their weapons are secured, and yet you read reports of weapons lost, stolen, or grabbed during an altercation. To carry concealed I'd have to go around with a suitable outergarment all day, some kind of secure holster assembly underneath, and I'd still be freaking out about losing track or control of the gun.

And a lot of concealed carriers are not nearly as neurotic. Many women carry in handbags or glove compartments. (At least in Texas, maybe not where some of y'all live.) I've got to think the danger of a handgun in somebody's bag or car at school is significant – not because the carrier him/herself would be trigger-happy, but just because somebody else would get hold of it, kids being kids and all.

The idea that even a small percentage of teachers are going to be gunfight-ready is not tenable. Even the idea that cops are gunfight-ready is somewhat wishful thinking.
   1646. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5626417)
why are people preaching armed guards as the solution when this school had an armed guard?

I think just because one case is not conclusive. No solution is perfect, and any measure is just aimed at reducing risks on the whole.
   1647. OCF Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5626418)
Lawyer's statement about Ricky Pinedo of Santa Paula, CA:
Through an online website, Mr. Pinedo sold bank information which allowed individuals to fraudulently verify and establish accounts with online financial institutions. Doing so was a mistake, and Mr. Pinedo has accepted full responsibility for his actions. However, Mr. Pinedo had absolutely no knowledge of the identities and motivations of any of the purchasers of the information he provided. To the extent that Mr. Pinedo’s actions assisted any individuals, including foreign nationals, from interfering in the American presidential election [it] was done completely without his knowledge or understanding.

I suppose we could summarize that as "My client is a crook, but he's not a traitor." I also assume that as a cooperating witness, his value to the prosecution is rather minimal.
   1648. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 17, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5626419)
I just want to make a quick comment as someone who is a mental health professional. There's been a lot of chatter about mental illness, homicide, and suicide, etc.

The truth is, despite all the treatments we have for mental illness, there is a ton of evidence that the best way to prevent suicide or homicide (better than medication, therapy, etc.) is restricting access to means.

Just wanted to mention that.

I also want to say that the idea of arming teachers scares me. Recent events have shown that it is difficult for police officers to know when to use deadly force appropriately. Asking teachers to do the same is a lot to ask, and that says nothing about the risk of the weapons being lost, stolen, etc.
   1649. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5626421)
I have no objection to allowing teachers (etc.) to be armed, but your second sentence shows why it's not really a practical solution: it requires teachers to be willing and able to use firearms. Good luck with finding enough of those to make it effective.

I will point out again that shooting sprees at schools are too rare to make public policy based on them.


Yes it would be a public policy change but at least there need be no change in the law in order to implement it. So the change doesn't make new (bad) law. No teachers would be required to arm themselves. And the classroom gun would of course be kept in a locked box, etc etc.

Could there be unintended consequences from this? An irate teacher one day; a student forcing a teacher to open the gun safe; etc. Yes. Of course there will be unintended consequences. But again -- we're trying to minimize the number of people being shot and terrorized, not reach a utopian solution. Solutions need only be good, or at least an improvement; they don't need to be perfect.
   1650. Howie Menckel Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5626423)
that FL HS has more than 3,000 students, which I find amazing.

how many were in your high school? mine had about 800, or 200 per year
   1651. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5626424)
As deja was saying (minus the odd remark about janitors), putting a cop in every school would be smart – but I am (cynically) sure most districts would run a cost/benefit analysis and conclude that the struck-by-lightning chance of a shooter in one school is not worth the investment in so many of those taking-taker public employees.


It's more that putting a single cop on campus will do virtually nothing; that's the benefit of arming several adults on campus: odds are that one or more of them will be near the shooter. Even it's a matter of hunkering down and protecting each classroom that's a benefit.

Right now the shooter just walks down the halls picking people off. The only thing that has a real chance to stop that is a gun. Or 10 people bum rushing him but at this point nobody has been shown to take that risk.
   1652. Morty Causa Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5626426)
Again, as a teacher who could be armed if I wanted to be, I would worry about the far more likely scenario where I lose control of a weapon. Cops devote a lot of attention to making sure that their weapons are secured, and yet you read reports of weapons lost, stolen, or grabbed during an altercation. To carry concealed I'd have to go around with a suitable outergarment all day, some kind of secure holster assembly underneath, and I'd still be freaking out about losing track or control of the gun.

This certainly seems plausible. We often flip these concerns off to make our partisan points, but one of a cop on the streets worse fears is that the suspect, or person stopped for whatever reason, will overcome him and take his gun away and use it on him. This accounts for much of the overreaction we righteously ascribe to policemen's behavior. Getting shot really hurts and can have dire consequences, like death. Often, cops have this happen to them when they forget about how easy it can be to take their weapon.

There's something that doesn't make sense with the idea of fighting the spread of gun violence by making it easier for there to be more gun violence by allowing more guns in public settings. It's like fighting poisonings by feeding poison to the populace in hopes it becomes immune. That's really not attacking the problem head on.
   1653. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5626427)
Moreover, a cop stationed at the school is more security theater than security. Put one easily identified person there for security and a shooter just knows to take that person out first. It's much more effective if a potential shooter does not know who is armed.


Exactly.
   1654. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5626428)
Trump's business dealings have been examined by the news media and his political rivals, and I don't recall any reports of loans from First Moscow Federal Savings & Loan, or even some unidentifiable entity such as the Caviar & Sturgeon Society.

Perhaps true in the narrowest sense, but misleading, and probably dishonest. Deutsche Bank's proclivities for serving Trump and for laundering Russian money are well known. The level of connection between the two is currently the subject of investigation.

The original claim was that the Russians somehow "forgave" millions in loans, which as noted in #1636, don't seem to exist. Now the fact that some of Trump's financing came from Deutsche Bank is supposed to be a gotcha? That's one of the world's largest banks, and the loans were all apparently recorded. Like some other banks it had some issues on crappy mortgage-backed securities, being lax on money launderers, and other practices, but the claim that the Russians control the bank and used it to bribe Trump seems to be confined to click-bait conspiracy theorists.
   1655. OCF Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5626429)
that FL HS has more than 3,000 students, which I find amazing.

how many were in your high school?


My own high school had about 900 in three grades. But both of my children attended a high school with about 5,000 students. I recall my daughter in her senior year looking over a pile of college recruiting mail, picking up some piece of it, and saying "That college is smaller than my high school!" Yeah, that wouldn't be hard to find.
   1656. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5626430)
I see Ray and Jason see nothing happening with Mueller.

Portrait of Sergeants RayJE and Trump in their current stage of denial.


Don't you need something to deny first before entering a stage of denial?

Thus far Mueller's investigation has turned up nothing with respect to the Trump campaign and collusion.

Which side is in denial? Which side is seeing the equivalent of pizza parlor child sex rings in the Russia collusion story?
   1657. Shredder Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5626431)
how many were in your high school? mine had about 800, or 200 per year
1,600 when I was there in 1991. About 2,200 now. Grades 9-12. Probably mid-sized for that area of Southern California.
   1658. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5626432)
I will point out again that shooting sprees at schools are too rare to make public policy based on them.


This too is idiotic because the impact of events is also a critical factor in whether public policy should respond. Only a fool or ideologue, or one looking to confuse or deceive, would look only to frequency and ignore impact. How many actual genocides have there been in history?
   1659. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5626435)
I don't object to your solution as an alternative. I think the time has come to do something tangible and address the problem head on rather than the same old tired response, which has been to wax on ideologically about your side of the 2nd Amendment issue which (a) never results in anything being done, and (b) is a non-solution to the problem anyway, because it doesn't address the actual root cause of the problem.

The problem with this is that the rhetoric and general weirdness/freakishness/unhingedness around Second Amendment absolutism -- particularly now with modern communications -- is a major part of the gun culture which in turn is "the actual root cause of the problem." (At least as much as a single root cause of the problem exists; the other root cause is mental illness.)


I think we all agree that it's not the gun nuts who are shooting up schools and nightclubs.

The point of argument has been that whether the laws on gun rights and background checks and the like enabling the mentally ill easier access to guns makes a difference when a mentally ill person decides to do violence.

And my contention is that no, it doesn't make any appreciable difference: people intent on causing violence either (a) find a way around the laws or (b) choose a different means. Again: driving an SUV through a farmer's market is something anyone able to tie his shoes could do.

FN* I think gun nuts are loons but in the times I've acquainted with them, either casually or in the few times I've been to a gun range, I've never had the sense that they were anything but completely responsible as far as usage of guns goes. And if I were in a nightclub that was being shot up I'd not only be relieved if an armed gun nut were in the club also but I'd prefer that to an armed cop being in the club. Gun nuts actually know how to use the guns.
   1660. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5626436)
Which side is in denial? Which side is seeing the equivalent of pizza parlor child sex rings in the Russia collusion story?


man you say a lot of dumbass ####.
   1661. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5626437)
Yeah, but with stacks of armed teachers, and police turning up on dozens of people with guns hearing there's a shooting, it could also be 65.


It's not a bad rebuttal point.
   1662. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5626438)
I think we all agree that it's not the gun nuts who are shooting up schools and nightclubs.


We don't have agreement on that, sorry. Cruz was a gun nut. So was Adam Lanza.
   1663. Mike A Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5626439)
...the impact of events is also a critical factor in whether public policy should respond.

My son came home from high school talking about how all of the students were scared. You can't just explain the odds to a 14-year old. The psychological impact of these shootings on our kids and their learning is substantial, and that's going to cost us in the long run. There may not be a perfect solution, but I don't think 'low odds' is a reason not to try.
   1664. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5626440)
This is part of the issue: People don't want to believe that we live in a country where this could perhaps be necessary. But that's where we are as a country, at the moment.

"At the moment"? This has been an escalating necessity for quite a while now. Not that long ago, there were no cops in schools, grocery stores, supermarkets, department stores, hospitals, theaters, etc., and no metal detectors at city halls, courthouses, etc. It just keeps getting worse and worse. What changed? (And I mean, and escalation in both the violence and the reaction to it in terms of proposed and effective remedies that, it is hoped, would prevent and discourage the violence.)


What changed is that 9/11 happened.

9/11 is responsible for the vast majority of upticks in security. It wasn't school/nightclub shootings.

It's actually hard to remember now but pre-911 you could and would waltz into virtually any office building in NYC, push a button on an elevator, and go straight up to any floor.

I don't think the security check-ins in the lobbies now actually deter any potential crimes. At best they can help investigate a crime later because they generally know who's coming and going and when.

--

But there's no question that since Columbine -- in the last couple of decades -- there has been a significant increase in the rate of school shootings. Granted it's still at a low rate overall as David is quick to note.

As long as we're making wild guesses I personally blame Michael Moore, for g(l)orifying the school shooters in his movie. I think that had no small effect on the increase we've seen since then. But much more of a cause was social media and the ability to become an instant and infamous villain.

Throughout it all the 2nd Amendment didn't change.
   1665. Srul Itza Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5626441)
Why don't we just move classes to the grounds of the state penitentiary, just to prevent these events that almost never happen anyway?


From what I remember of the sociopaths who inhabited my secondary schools, this would also serve the useful purpose of acclimating them to their future environment.
   1666. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5626444)
But there's no question that since Columbine -- in the last couple of decades -- there has been a significant increase in the rate of school shootings.


And mass shootings generally. Here's the data:

Consider this, 15 of the 20 worst mass shootings in U.S. history have occurred since the Columbine school shooting in 1999. The five worst have all occurred since 2007, and three of those five were in 2016 and 2017.


Correlation isn't necessarily causation, but this secular change coincides almost perfectly with the onset of the mass internet and then social media. Part of this has to be that modern communications don't send enough signals to these people to not act out on what they're feeling, and indeed modern communications likely do exactly the opposite.
   1667. Srul Itza Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5626446)
Through an online website, Mr. Pinedo sold bank information which allowed individuals to fraudulently verify and establish accounts with online financial institutions. Doing so was a mistake,


A MISTAKE!!? How about A FELONY? If not that, how about MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE?

It is hard sometimes to admit being a lawyer when you share a profession with things like that.
   1668. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5626447)
Again, as a teacher who could be armed if I wanted to be, I would worry about the far more likely scenario where I lose control of a weapon. Cops devote a lot of attention to making sure that their weapons are secured, and yet you read reports of weapons lost, stolen, or grabbed during an altercation. To carry concealed I'd have to go around with a suitable outergarment all day, some kind of secure holster assembly underneath, and I'd still be freaking out about losing track or control of the gun.

And a lot of concealed carriers are not nearly as neurotic. Many women carry in handbags or glove compartments. (At least in Texas, maybe not where some of y'all live.) I've got to think the danger of a handgun in somebody's bag or car at school is significant – not because the carrier him/herself would be trigger-happy, but just because somebody else would get hold of it, kids being kids and all.


You could have a bunch of gun safes in various classrooms. That only unlock -- via the fingerprint of an authorized teacher -- during an active shooter scenario. A select few people such as the principal and VP etc would have the ability to hit the "red button" to activate the gun safes and make them able to be unlocked with an authorized fingerprint.

It really isn't hard to come up with a workable plan that has a chance of being better than what we're seeing now, which is an armed shooter roaming the halls wreaking unimaginable horror unchallenged.

--Well, it isn't hard from a practical standpoint. But the collective ideology on guns -- half the country having been whipped into a crazed frenzy opposing anything that looks like a pro-gun solution -- will never let it happen. So in that sense it's just as impractical as anything else.
   1669. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5626448)
It really isn't hard to come up with a workable plan that has a chance of being better than what we're seeing now, which is an armed shooter roaming the halls wreaking unimaginable horror unchallenged.


But we only see that because we let loons buy guns that can let them wreak unimaginable horror. There's no reason we should be doing that. And please don't say the Second Amendment, which doesn't bestow carte blanche to buy an assault rifle and bigass magazines. It means you can have a gun. It doesn't mean you can have any gun you want, or any ammunition you want for that matter.

Yeah, it's possible to drive an SUV into a farmers market. Pretty tough to drive an SUV through the hallways of a high school.
   1670. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:07 PM (#5626450)
I think we all agree that it's not the gun nuts who are shooting up schools and nightclubs.

We don't have agreement on that, sorry. Cruz was a gun nut. So was Adam Lanza.


No, these people were nuts; they were not 2nd Amendment nuts.

I'm actually using the term "gun nut" in a technical way: I mean 2nd Amendment nuts who own guns.

In stark contrast Cruz and Lanza were just nuts who owned guns.

I think you haven't spent much time around gun owners of the kind you'll find in Arizona or Texas. You live on the UWS of Manhattan, after all. (So do I but in contrast I spent a ton of time in Tucson in the 2000s as my parents lived there and I visited often. I have other family in Texas that I visit occasionally.)
   1671. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5626452)
No, these people were nuts; they were not 2nd Amendment nuts.


They acted nutty with their guns prior to committing their atrocities; that's my definition. Any kind of staged pose with your gun puts you in the gun nut category. A normal action photo of you shooting or somesuch wouldn't. Others' mileage may vary.

I think you haven't spent much time around gun owners of the kind you'll find in Arizona or Texas. You live on the UWS of Manhattan, after all.


I grew up in Michigan; half the guys wore orange deer hunting vests to school in deer season. My uncles used guns; one of the only time I've shot one was when my uncle took me out to shoot cans when I was like maybe 10. Seemed stupid then, seems stupid now. I could see myself going skeet shooting sometime; it looks kind of fun. I'm certainly not in favor of a national gun ban or anything of the sort. I am in favor of heavy regulation.

Millions of gun owners plainly have penis or other insecurity issues. This is virtually self-evident.
   1672. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5626453)
What changed is that 9/11 happened. 9/11 is responsible for the vast majority of upticks in security. It wasn't school/nightclub shootings.

Well, Oklahoma City, too. That's when Pennsylvania Avenue was closed to traffic in front of the White House. Years ago, security there was incredibly relaxed by today's standards. My first White House "visit" was during the Carter Administration when I was working in close proximity, in a job that had required a full-field investigation background check, and the White House used to call over looking for people to pad the crowd for events such as welcoming remarks for foreign leaders on the South Lawn. The invitation was delayed before it got to me, so I was a little late, but I was new and figured why not check it out? As I approached the SE gate, a single guard merely said "Better hurry, they're about to start". So I walked in and stood in the crowd ~ 25 yards from Carter and his now forgotten guest. No metal detector, no name given, no ID check, just a good-looking guy in a suit who looked like he might belong. Today, I believe even tourists on the public tour have to provide name & SSN days ahead of time.
   1673. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5626454)
Part of where one falls with respect to viewing Trump boils down to self confidence: If you're confident in your life and you think that you control your own outcomes and happiness, you don't care that Trump is in the White House.

Yes, this is a perfect description of all those white voters who seethe with resentment about having their jobs stolen by immigrants and affirmative action, and their culture being under siege by "political correctness". Nobody's more confident about controlling their own lives than these folks, so that's why they support Trump!


Andy, even assuming arguendo what you're describing is accurate, you're describing (a faction) of _supporters_ of Trump. Above I explicitly said those who "don't care" that he's in the White House.

Happiness is not something to strive for; it's part of one's makeup, like being a good and moral person is. Happiness is a virtue. And each of us has a responsibility to those around us to project happiness and not bog our loved ones down with us being constantly down in the dumps.

That's what the people crazed about Trump do: they go on and on and on about this and that with respect to Trump and drive the people around them crazy. I couldn't imagine being married to some folks here even if I shared their views on Trump. Not for one lifetime, not for one decade, not for one year, not for one week.

As to the subject of happiness there are people in life who go around constantly doing the "I'm having a good day; I'm having a bad day" thing. They're continuously on a yo-yo or seesaw. Well adjusted people don't do that. I can't remember the last time I had a "bad day." Unfortunate things happen but they're things to deal with in the process of living, not things to use to constantly bring you and everyone around you down.
   1674. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5626455)
Well, Oklahoma City, too. That's when Pennsylvania Avenue was closed to traffic in front of the White House. Years ago, security there was incredibly relaxed by today's standards. My first White House "visit" was during the Carter Administration when I was working in close proximity, in a job that had required a full-field investigation background check, and the White House used to call over looking for people to pad the crowd for events such as welcoming remarks for foreign leaders on the South Lawn. The invitation was delayed before it got to me, so I was a little late, but I was new and figured why not check it out? As I approached the SW gate, a single guard merely said "Better hurry, they're about to start". So I walked in and stood in the crowd ~ 25 yards from Carter and his now forgotten guest. No metal detector, no name given, no ID check, just a good-looking guy in a suit who looked like he might belong. Today, I believe even tourists on the public tour have to provide name & SSN days ahead of time.


I was just watching Game 6 of the 96 WS on YES, which I was fortunate to be at, and was thinking how different the security to an ordinary sporting event, in NY anyway, is now vs. the non-existent security then. I had bags with cameras and other junk with me. They just wanted my ticket.

Just another example of how the terrorist have won.
   1675. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5626456)
Millions of gun owners plainly have penis or other insecurity issues. This is virtually self-evident.


Evident but irrelevant.
   1676. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5626457)
The terrorists have won, and the Russians have won.
   1677. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5626459)
True but irrelevant.


Is it, though? It seems to me perfectly valid to find distaste in an activity based on the impulses and culture of its adherents. More to the point, it's hard to really trust people with such bizarre issues, and gun culture/Second Amendment devotees are asking us to trust them. But the fact that you have issues with your penis that have driven you to buy a bunch of guns is kind of strikes one and two on the ol' trust meter.
   1678. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5626461)
Unfortunate things happen but they're things to deal with in the process of living, not things to use to constantly bring you and everyone around you down.


But as you say, you're an UWS Manhattan-ite, and I'm sure you've earned your lifestyle. There are others who are genuinely decent folks that are trying who may not have the intellectual firepower that you and many on this board have, who are struggling and dealing with serious ****. Maybe they screwed up and didn't realize the importance of education until way too late. Maybe they have illnesses and can't afford insurance. I think there are circumstances where it's understandable that they wallow in "woe-is-me-"ville and having compassion for them isn't a flaw. In speaking with Trump-niks, I do find that compassion is not high on their list of personal virtues.
   1679. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5626462)
that FL HS has more than 3,000 students, which I find amazing.

how many were in your high school? mine had about 800, or 200 per year


800 was about the size of mine, in small-town New Jersey, in the 1970s. Though we graduated fewer than 150 a year … it wasn't exactly Choate Rosemary Hall, academically :(

My son's school was about 1,200, Long Island, the mid-2000s. They did graduate their 300 a year.

But in Texas, yes, 2,500-3,000 is common. If you're not in football division 6-A, what's the point of going to high school?
   1680. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5626464)
Trump and Betsy DeVos just announced this week that they'll seek to divert over a billion dollars of education funding to school vouchers. Teachers aren't reimbursed for paper or wet wipes now, let alone for their guns, ammo, training and liability in this glorious weaponized future. But the rational mind, not whipped into a crazed frenzy like the foolish half of the country, thinks that America's 130,000+ schools (and a few more classrooms than that) are going to be gifted a bunch of fingerprint-recognition gun safes?
   1681. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5626465)
Well, Oklahoma City, too. That's when Pennsylvania Avenue was closed to traffic in front of the White House. Years ago, security there was incredibly relaxed by today's standards.

50 years ago when I was covering congressional hearings, I could not only roam all around the Capitol and both office buildings without even being noticed, I could leave my car parked unattended under an entrance archway on the East side of the Capitol while I went inside to buy a Congressional Record. There were no designated parking spaces, but as long as you let a policeman know what you were doing, he'd leave your car alone. Later I could also leave my car parked on a driveway underneath the main wing of National Airport, completely unattended, as long as I placed a cardboard "ON DELIVERY" sign in my windshield. No registration, no bureaucracy, and nobody even noticed or cared, as long as your car had that sign showing.

But my favorite Capitol Hill perk was that I could DOUBLE PARK for hours on end, in front of a restaurant that was a block north of the Senate Office Building, without getting a ticket. All I had to do was to let a Capitol policemen know that I was covering a hearing, and I was set for the rest of the day. The car I was blocking was always parked there all day, and never needed to be moved, so I didn't even have to leave my car key with the policeman.

And here's the most amazing thing: I found out about this perk by accident, when I was driving around looking for a parking space, and out of mild desperation I asked a policeman where I could park. He then told me exactly where to go and what to say to the policeman who was stationed outside the restaurant, which apparently was a favorite meeting spot for congressmen and lobbyists.
   1682. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5626466)
I was just watching Game 6 of the 96 WS on YES, which I was fortunate to be at, and was thinking how different the security to an ordinary sporting event, in NY anyway, is now vs. the non-existent security then. I had bags with cameras and other junk with me. They just wanted my ticket.

Not to mention that fans could walk all over the field after games in many cities. After Redskins games in Washington, we'd sidle up to the players and ask them for chin straps (which they'd usually give us),** and after Nats games we'd grab the rosin bags, or if we were willing to risk it, we'd go into the dugouts and grab the lineup card or even a broken bat that'd been left behind. A high school friend of mine got one of Mickey Mantle's broken bats that way, and got him to autograph it many years later when his accounting firm had Mantle as a client.

** After Crazylegs Hirsch's final game as a Ram, he was stripped "semi-nude" by teenage fans while leaving the field. It was as if he was Elvis Presley at a concert.
As Hirsch began making his way off the field one last time, he was engulfed by a large crowd of young fans. Fearing for his safety, he began removing parts of his uniform and tossing it in an effort to disperse the group of overzealous admirers.

“They actually started to trample me,” he once recalled. “So I took off my jersey and threw it one way. And a pack of them went off after it. I took off something else and threw it the other way and got a few more out of the way. Little by little, I bartered my way off the field.”

By the time he arrived in the locker room “semi-nude,” as described by a sportswriter, Hirsch was down to his shorts and pads around his waist and tape on his ankles.
   1683. BDC Posted: February 17, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5626470)
Pre-security-theater days … I'm a little younger than Andy, but I remember roaming the Capitol as a teenager and being (what seemed) completely at large – the only places where entry was controlled were the chambers themselves (and I suppose the attached cloakrooms and what-not). And you could get a ticket for the chambers by strolling unannounced into your own Congressman's office.

But my fonder memory is of the Phillies' opener in 1974. A bunch of us high-schoolers took the bus in from South Jersey to see the game, and in those Andy-esque times, of course six unaccompanied teenagers could walk up, day of game, Opening Day at that, and get 50-cent general-admission tickets. The game was legitimately great (you can look it up), and afterwards somehow we missed our bus or whatever, and we were wandering around Center City in the late afternoon. Hey, there's Independence Hall – let's go peek in the windows, you can see the Liberty Bell. Not a guard or cop in sight. They may have chilled a little by now, but the last time I went to Independence Hall I had to stand in an endless line and feed through what looked like a decontamination tent full of sensors and scanners and who knows what.
   1684. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5626473)
Trump and Betsy DeVos just announced this week that they'll seek to divert over a billion dollars of education funding to school vouchers. Teachers aren't reimbursed for paper or wet wipes now, let alone for their guns, ammo, training and liability in this glorious weaponized future. But the rational mind, not whipped into a crazed frenzy like the foolish half of the country, thinks that America's 130,000+ schools (and a few more classrooms than that) are going to be gifted a bunch of fingerprint-recognition gun safes?


Any argument based on a relatively tiny amount of money fails.
   1685. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 17, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5626477)
Non-responsive.

Also, in your fever dreams of 1.3 million good guys with a fingerprint safe, you mixed up "relatively" and "reality-based."
   1686. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5626478)

Shouldn’t we also mention how there was an armed security guard on campus at this shooting?
There is a cop employed at the school (again, the euphemism is "school resource officer") in question. He may or may not have been there at this shooting:
The only person trained and armed to fight back against an assailant at Stoneman Douglas is its one school resource officer, a Broward Sheriff’s deputy funded by the city of Parkland. But Maxwell said she doesn’t think he was on campus when the shooting happened.

“I have been told by a couple of sources that the SRO was either called off campus responding to something happening or it could have been his day off,” she said. “They are stretched very thin.”

Neither BSO nor school district officials responded to requests for comment Thursday about where the officer was at the time. On Friday, Broward Schools Superintendent Robert Runcie said he was told by BSO officials that an officer was at the school but on a different part of campus.
   1687. Ishmael Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5626480)
Happiness is not something to strive for; it's part of one's makeup, like being a good and moral person is. Happiness is a virtue. And each of us has a responsibility to those around us to project happiness and not bog our loved ones down with us being constantly down in the dumps.

Ray, do you not think that one can strive to be a good and moral person?
   1688. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5626481)
Non-responsive.

Also, in your fever dreams of 1.3 million good guys with a fingerprint safe, you mixed up "relatively" and "reality-based."


Fever dreams? Do you not argue for significant restrictions on gun laws?
   1689. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5626484)
I think you haven't spent much time around gun owners of the kind you'll find in Arizona or Texas. You live on the UWS of Manhattan, after all. (So do I but in contrast I spent a ton of time in Tucson in the 2000s as my parents lived there and I visited often. I have other family in Texas that I visit occasionally.)

‘but in contrast...’ lmao. The man of the people speaks! And lectures!

Haven’t spent much time on these boards the last few weeks because I work for a living and have been super busy, but I see ####### still gonna #######. Was the Michael Moore thing a joke by our little lord? Or was that some more laughable (yet enraging) bs from the true libertarian?
   1690. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5626485)
Pretty clear the true libertarian has some weird angle in mind with his insistence that the deaths are merely abstract and that there's really nothing the cops can do when they hear about a loon talking about wanting to shoot up a school and that there shouldn't be cops in schools and there really aren't that many school shootings anyway.

We can only guess, but I'd put the leaders in the clubhouse as (*):

1. Security in schools should be privatized; and
2. Kids should just bring in their own private bodyguards -- armed if they want -- to whatever degree possible.

(*) "Public schools shouldn't exist" is taken as a given.

   1691. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5626486)
Pre-security-theater days … I'm a little younger than Andy, but I remember roaming the Capitol as a teenager and being (what seemed) completely at large – the only places where entry was controlled were the chambers themselves (and I suppose the attached cloakrooms and what-not). And you could get a ticket for the chambers by strolling unannounced into your own Congressman's office.

The only restrictions I can remember in the Capitol chambers (for tourists, anyway) was that the tickets you mention limited you to 15 minutes of seating, in order to accommodate the crowds for the limited seating space. Same for the Supreme Court, but there if you waited in line long enough, you could be seated for the entire day. That custom is still in existence, though I don't know whether the SC still has temporary seating for tourists.

50-cent general-admission tickets.

Those general admission tickets (75 cents in Washington for 16-and-unders) were the main reason why I still insist the stadium experience BITD was better for the average fan than it is today. For 75 cents you could buy a ticket that would give you the equivalent view of a seat that (in Nats Park) would now cost you around $200 for a "premium" opponent. You can't make up for that with all the gourmet fast food in the universe. Teams started phasing out between-the-bases general admission in the late 60's, restricting them to down the lines, upper deck only, and by the 90's the entire concept had almost completely been scrapped. It's come to the point where tickets for the best games are like tickets to a Broadway hit musical, where you have to fork over your money months in advance unless you want to pay an even higher price from an officially licensed scalper.
   1692. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 17, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5626488)
Those general admission tickets (75 cents in Washington for 16-and-unders) were the main reason why I still insist the stadium experience BITD was better for the average fan than it is today. For 75 cents you could buy a ticket that would give you the equivalent view of a seat that (in Nats Park) would now cost you around $200 for a "premium" opponent. You can't make up for that with all the gourmet fast food in the universe. Teams started phasing out between-the-bases general admission in the late 60's, restricting them to down the lines, upper deck only, and by the 90's the entire concept had almost completely been scrapped. It's come to the point where tickets for the best games are like tickets to a Broadway hit musical, where you have to fork over your money months in advance unless you want to pay an even higher price from an officially licensed scalper.


Truly a different time. Of course now we can watch a game on a 60" TV on a modest salary while smoking legal weed that is 20% or higher THC.
   1693. -- Posted: February 17, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5626491)
Those old ballparks were the products of the era of the Great Consensus. Once the social separation and stratification of the post-1979 era came to be, those places were doomed. The old parks (and college football stadiums, etc.) had rich patrons, but rich and well-off people back then didn't need to have some sort of special thing to buy that let everyone else know they were rich in order to patronize them -- and so such things barely existed. Today, it's virtually impossible to sell a rich or well-off person just a plain old seat with plain old food just like the working guys have.

BITD, I was kinda sorta friends with a scion of a big auto family in Michigan. The family had really nice seats at Tiger Stadium, second row right by the Tiger dugout. (*) But other than proximity to the field, there was nothing separating that seat from the drunk working man's. No designated food area, no extra seat width, no moat, nothing. Such things didn't exist. It really didn't cost much more and in fact it probably didn't cost anymore than some of the box seats the working guys sat in.

(*) Easily close enough, e.g., to see what a good guy Chet Lemon was and what a grouch Kirk Gibson was.
   1694. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5626493)
Those general admission tickets (75 cents in Washington for 16-and-unders) were the main reason why I still insist the stadium experience BITD was better for the average fan than it is today.

Calling a foul here for discussing baseball in OTP, but the Washington Senators of the 1950s never drew 700,000 fans, and had several seasons when they didn't even get 500K. An empty, decaying stadium with cheap tickets was probably a good deal for the few who showed up to watch a team that didn't make it to the first division for the entire decade, finishing 7th or 8th most of the time, but it was a golden age only for the super thrifty who didn't care about winning. MLB is in much better shape now, and provides a much more enjoyable fan experience, in person and on TV, at greater cost (in person), but for a much wealthier nation.
   1695. dejarouehg Posted: February 17, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5626494)
Can someone clue me in on why ^^^ comments revert to [Ignored Comment]?

Wondering if there's some hidden meaning or agenda.
   1696. greenback slays lewks Posted: February 17, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5626495)
This would be genius:

Think about it. There are anywhere between 3 million and 7 million Muslims in the United States. There are only around 5 million members of the NRA. A mass membership drive by Muslim-Americans could effectively give them control of the organization.

It would also petrify conservatives the length and breadth of the United States. Within days, Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan would be lining up his GOP congressional colleagues to back emergency legislative measures, such as universal background checks and longer waiting times on gun purchases. Some right-wing pundits might even start questioning the hallowed Second Amendment itself. President Donald Trump, meanwhile, would probably start tweeting out attacks on the “losers” at the NRA for cozying up to “radical Islam.”
   1697. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: February 17, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5626496)
Can someone clue me in on why ^^^ comments revert to [Ignored Comment]?


Lots of people have that Dancing Monkey on ignore. To engage in conversation with any Dancing Monkey enables them.
   1698. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 08:31 PM (#5626502)
Those general admission tickets (75 cents in Washington for 16-and-unders) were the main reason why I still insist the stadium experience BITD was better for the average fan than it is today. For 75 cents you could buy a ticket that would give you the equivalent view of a seat that (in Nats Park) would now cost you around $200 for a "premium" opponent. You can't make up for that with all the gourmet fast food in the universe. Teams started phasing out between-the-bases general admission in the late 60's, restricting them to down the lines, upper deck only, and by the 90's the entire concept had almost completely been scrapped. It's come to the point where tickets for the best games are like tickets to a Broadway hit musical, where you have to fork over your money months in advance unless you want to pay an even higher price from an officially licensed scalper.

Truly a different time. Of course now we can watch a game on a 60" TV on a modest salary while smoking legal weed that is 20% or higher THC.

No argument there, and I've made the same point about the Extra Innings package many times before. AFAIC at $199 a year it's the greatest bargain in professional sports. But with "dynamic pricing" the standard practice these days, the best games are way, way more expensive to attend in person than they were BITD, even accounting for inflation. That was my only point.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calling a foul here for discussing baseball in OTP, but the Washington Senators of the 1950s never drew 700,000 fans, and had several seasons when they didn't even get 500K. An empty, decaying stadium with cheap tickets was probably a good deal for the few who showed up to watch a team that didn't make it to the first division for the entire decade, finishing 7th or 8th most of the time, but it was a golden age only for the super thrifty who didn't care about winning.

I only mentioned Washington because that was the one I was most familiar with, but a general admission ticket in Yankee Stadium in 1961 got you an upper deck seat behind the plate for only $1.30. I went to 9 games in 7 days there that Summer for a total ticket cost of $9.10. And that was the adult's price, for a team that won 109 games and breezed through the World Series. Most per-expansion era stadiums back then had more seats allocated for general admission tickets than for any other price range. It wasn't just the lowly Senators.
   1699. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 17, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5626505)
This would be genius:
Think about it. There are anywhere between 3 million and 7 million Muslims in the United States. There are only around 5 million members of the NRA. A mass membership drive by Muslim-Americans could effectively give them control of the organization.

It would also petrify conservatives the length and breadth of the United States. Within days, Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan would be lining up his GOP congressional colleagues to back emergency legislative measures, such as universal background checks and longer waiting times on gun purchases. Some right-wing pundits might even start questioning the hallowed Second Amendment itself. President Donald Trump, meanwhile, would probably start tweeting out attacks on the “losers” at the NRA for cozying up to “radical Islam.”

That'd indeed be the greatest act of political jiu-jitsu in history, and it'd cause even more (much more) disconnect within the ranks of the gun-worshiping Trumpian faithful than the thought of a president who patronizes hookers and then has his handlers pay them off to keep them quiet. That's just routine and can be waved off easily, but the thought of Muslims taking over the NRA would really be sacrilegious. Next thing you know, they'd be taking over NASCAR and cornering the BBQ market.

(Well, maybe just the beef and chicken divisions. Gotta leave a little something for the swine eaters.)

   1700. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5626509)
Flip.
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