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Monday, February 12, 2018

OTP 12 February 2018: Jeff Samardzija explains why politics and baseball rarely mix

However, there were several curveballs that forced Giants’ players to think outside the box, including one from a fan who asked a trio that included catcher Buster Posey, reliever Cory Gearrin and starting pitcher Jeff Samardzija whether they think baseball players should have a role in voicing their political opinions like football and basketball players have in recent years.

The question temporarily stumped Gearrin and Posey, so as his teammates waited, Samardzija decided to jump in and share his perspective.

“I don’t think so, not necessarily because we’re here to entertain you guys. Every time we step on the field, it’s important,” Samardzija said, before pausing temporarily while a loud round of applause petered out.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 2005 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, san francisco giants, spring training

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   301. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:07 AM (#5624034)
What about the Kenyan election jurisprudential tradition, of which Hillary was so recently fond?
   302. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:08 AM (#5624035)
So you're saying you found the Scalise shooting amusing? 


There's nothing amusing about poor planning ruining a project.
   303. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:11 AM (#5624036)
That you object to the "Anglo-American" legal tradition says something about you, not Sessions. Perhaps you'll take on "Judeo-Christian ethic" next?


Kill 'em all. Let god sort 'em out.
   304. Greg K Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:12 AM (#5624037)
What about the Kenyan election jurisprudential tradition, of which Hillary was so recently fond?

If you're asking: "hey, weren't pre-modern sheriffs responsible for supervising elections?" then, yes, they were!

It was probably the last major responsibility they held. And they could be pretty influential. They could just arbitrarily decide when to stop counting votes. They could also change the county venue for the election at the last second. So you wait for your opponent and all his supporters to show up at the traditional place, then pay off the sheriff to announce, oh no, we're having the vote later this afternoon 40 miles away.

But I'm not sure the Kenyan precedent on disputed elections applied. In the 17th century I'm pretty sure parliament itself adjudicated any disputed elections.
   305. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5624039)
A House forecast holds good news for Democrats

We’re far enough into the 2018 midterm election cycle that we have some sense of what the fundamentals of the political environment that will govern it look like. A pretty simple forecast model that relies on economic performance and presidential popularity predicts Democrats will pick up 45 to 50 House seats this fall, and take over 15 to 20 state legislative chambers. A loss of just 24 House seats would flip House control to the Democrats.


I am not a huge fan of such models, but then again those models mostly forecast a slight GOP edge going into 2016. And of course it is not just models ...

Analysis: The Generic Is Falling! The Generic Is Falling!

A deep dive into generic ballot polls (which I am still a fan of by the way, as a good first measure), ending in ...
There are now so many polls asking the generic ballot question that even people who should know better end up making comparisons across surveys.

The most recent poll gets all of the hype, no matter whether it seems to fit comfortably with other data and real news events.

And the generic ballot is just one measure of the two parties’ strengths during the cycle, which is why any analysis should look at multiple indicators, including multiple poll questions, fundraising numbers, measures of enthusiasm, candidate recruitment and district-level survey data in competitive seats.

So watch the generic ballot, but don’t become a prisoner to it.

Democratic prospects of taking over the House are not measurably worse than they were a month or two ago. Indeed, there are plenty of reasons to believe that they are better and improving.

   306. manchestermets Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:18 AM (#5624040)
Vapid celebrity wedding stuff, but this will be fun because it's not even up for debate that the Orange will be livid about it... and nothing makes me happier than Trump feeling slighted.

Awesome.


The awesome part of this from the UK perspective is that the type of English politician who has tediously jerked their knee towards defending Trump from any and all criticism is the same sect that will accept no criticism whatsoever of the royal family as being valid. They won't know what to do if Trump complains about this. I don't know what he expects if he's too chicken to visit the UK though.
   307. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:21 AM (#5624042)
I don't know what he expects if he's too chicken to visit the UK though.


Trump's cowardice is his saving grace honestly. I have never been as panicky about Trump as GOP President as some here and the yellow stripe down his back is a big reason. Dude is, as they say in Texas, all hat and no cattle. If BS were an Olympic sport he would gold easily, but when it comes down to it he always bails and takes the easy way out. He can't even face hostile crowds.

I think a large part of his authoritarian impulse comes from that fear, but it also limits the damage he can do, fortunately.
   308. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:24 AM (#5624043)

ONLY THE BEST PEOPLE!
This was a tired enough meme when it was referring to people who vaguely worked for Trump. It's really stupid when it's applied to someone who doesn't.
   309. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:29 AM (#5624044)
I've got nothing against the Anglo-American legal tradition. I just don't happen to think that Jeff Sessions, Joe Arpaio, and David Clarke are what the creators of the Magna Carta had in mind. I'm sure that you're quite comfortable with all three of them, but then you're also quite enamored of #####-grabbing presidents, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Andy, you're embarrassing yourself. There's no dog whistle here. There's only a nutty conspiracy theory pushed by uninformed lunatics.


To paraphrase Reggie Jackson, all three of those characters mentioned above are certified lunatics, and two of them are convicted. It doesn't take a dog to hear that.
   310. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5624045)

ONLY THE BEST PEOPLE!

This was a tired enough meme when it was referring to people who vaguely worked for Trump. It's really stupid when it's applied to someone who doesn't.


I'll bear that in mind as soon as Trump stops embracing them. And given his shoutouts to Moore / Porter / O'Reilly / Rove / the list goes on and on, that may not be too soon.
   311. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:36 AM (#5624046)
One of the following must be true:

A. Jeff Sessions must be doing a far better job than I think he is if him accurately describing the historical origins of the system of justice that is in place in the United States is some gotcha.

B. Jeff Sessions is terrible and Jolly and Zonk are drooling dolts.

I know which one I'll take.


Nice of Dan to drop in for his bi-monthly insult-and-run, but this actually makes me feel optimistic...

You see, the sum total of what I did was

Hyperlink "Sessions" -- and then quote nothing but his own words, not even adding any commentary of my own.

It would seem that I'm just an orange skin tone away from America's finest cartoonist/hypnotist lauding me as the most expert of troll.... and as someone who is the nation's foremost troll, I suddenly find myself qualified to be President... and not just President -- but a President who can look forward to the undying support of the finest from NY's legal community, VA's retired bureaucrat community, trolls from under bridges, and cocktail party circuiters who previously opposed me.

In order to shore up the base, I would like to offer Andy a spot as my running mate.... sorry Mouse - you made the shortlist, but the base doesn't care for your high bar on impeachment. Sam, you were in the running, too - but the background check turned up some violent tendencies.

Zonk/Andy 20202!

They make the right people angry!
   312. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:46 AM (#5624050)
In order to shore up the base, I would like to offer Andy a spot as my running mate.... sorry Mouse - you made the shortlist, but the base doesn't care for your high bar on impeachment. Sam, you were in the running, too - but the background check turned up some violent tendencies.


I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected.

:)
   313. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5624054)
Report: WH Set Up Off Record Briefing With Porter After Ex-Wife’s Photo Posted

Shortly after the Daily Mail published a photo of Rob Porter’s wife with a black eye, the White House arranged an off-the-record briefing with Porter and four reporters, Politico reported Tuesday morning.

White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders arranged for Porter to tell his side of the story to the New York Times’ Maggie Haberman, the Washington Post’s Josh Dawsey, Axios’ Jonathan Swan, and the Wall Street Journal’s Michael Bender, Politico.


I can only guess he was going to explain how Earth's orange sun makes his finger so strong that it smashes through windows by merely tapping them*.

*Stolen from Matt Yglesias.
   314. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5624055)
The forces of repression, suppression, and censorship never rest.

The Duluth move was supported by the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People, with president of the local chapter Stephan Witherspoon saying the books were “just hurtful” and use “hurtful language that has oppressed the people for over 200 years”.

“It’s wrong. There are a lot more authors out there with better literature that can do the same thing that does not degrade our people. I’m glad that they’re making the decision and it’s long overdue, like 20 years overdue,” he said. “Let’s move forward and work together to make school work for all of our kids, not just some, all of them.”


There is no better author in American Lit than Twain, and those are two of the absolute best novels ever written. The NAACP is not competent to make literary judgments (and from its reaction, just generally not competent on other issues, too).
   315. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 08:58 AM (#5624057)
You want reaction?

I'll give you reaction...

This reminds me of when all those Hannity watchers were smashing their Keurigs.

Please tell me that the Zonk/Andy ticket yielded some broken laptops and monitors... President and a highly lucrative lobbying shop (which even gets to take money from the Russians!).

Yeesh... I wasted my life with this gainful employment stuff.

Question for the lawyers - is it illegal for me to make "inverse endorsement" deals with any electronic and home appliance manufacturers to get people to smash their perfectly functioning equipment that they've already paid for, thus forcing them to eventually buy another or at least, taking potentially used products out of the market place?
   316. Count Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:00 AM (#5624058)
I had an argument with friends about the Sessions' comments - they read to me as completely anodyne. It's not unusual to invoke anglo-american legal heritage, and he was speaking to a sheriff's association, so you would expect him to throw in some language stressing the importance of sheriffs. (Friends stressed that Sessions shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt, which is true, but I don't see anglo-american legal heritage as a loaded phrase at all). Anyway, the point is: I'm the last truly objective man on earth.

(YC compared this to "Judeo-Christian"; I'd actually say that judeo-christian is a much more loaded and historically unsupportable term that was just designed to include Jews and exclude Muslims.)
   317. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5624059)

You see, the sum total of what I did was

Hyperlink "Sessions" -- and then quote nothing but his own words, not even adding any commentary of my own.
Now you're pulling a Ray.

If you had done what you pretended, it still would be bizarre; you weren't posting words at random, but to make a point. But you did no such thing. You linked to insane TPM commentary about Sessions. With no "Hey, isn't this absurd?", the only reasonable conclusion is that you were endorsing the TPM commentary. Don't try, when people point out how dumb it was, to wash your hands of it and say, "Hey, I didn't say that.\"
   318. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:09 AM (#5624061)
Now you're pulling a Ray.

If you had done what you pretended, it still would be bizarre; you weren't posting words at random, but to make a point. But you did no such thing. You linked to insane TPM commentary about Sessions. With no "Hey, isn't this absurd?", the only reasonable conclusion is that you were endorsing the TPM commentary. Don't try, when people point out how dumb it was, to wash your hands of it and say, "Hey, I didn't say that.\"


Right. I posted a link, snipped a quote, and half a dozen people flipped their ####....

Isn't that the definition of trolling?

I can see how Trump likes this stuff... I mean, you maintain a ridiculous veneer of plausible deniability - that most people won't buy except for those who will either defend that plausible deniability to the end OR call you a genius for so expertly trolling the People Who Get Mad (but that's enough to get 44%!)

In fact, I'm even better at it than Trump because I didn't even need to add a "Sad!"

In any case, the Zonk/Andy ticket never expected your support, David... that's why I have to call you.... LIDDLE DAVIE!
   319. DavidFoss Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5624062)
There is no better author in American Lit than Twain, and those are two of the absolute best novels ever written. The NAACP is not competent to make literary judgments (and from its reaction, just generally not competent on other issues, too).

Dumb on many levels. There aren't many African Americans in Duluth and the 'local paper' they cite is a three hour drive away in tiny Bemidji. There are always over-corrections and counter-corrections with issues like these. Northern Minnesota is a strange place to look for news on the matter.

The main issue is the complete eradication of the n-word for the language in the past twenty years. I'm certainly not pushing for it to make a comeback but it makes it hard to deal with literature that was written before. I read both books before 9th grade but back then it was just a terrible word -- it wasn't completely forbidden the way it is today.
   320. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:19 AM (#5624065)
YC compared this to "Judeo-Christian"; I'd actually say that judeo-christian is a much more loaded and historically unsupportable term that was just designed to include Jews and exclude Muslims.
It wasn't designed to exclude Muslims any more than it was designed to exclude Buddhists. It was designed to include Jews. It's rather misleading, to be sure; the Judeo and Christian parts don't really fit together very well at all. And if I wanted to squint and find a reason to be insulted I could. But it was well-intentioned.
   321. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:21 AM (#5624067)
319

This is not the only place this is going on. And it's indicative of a general overweening trend that has burgeoned and is beginning to flourish.
   322. BrianBrianson Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5624068)
For instance, I can go to Kroger's and buy cheap foods out of season that my parents couldn't have dreamed of buying, fifty years ago, at any cost or in any season. Are the people who grew that food more or less immiserated than the people who produced our food 50 years ago? Are all the wonderful first-world things Pinker points to because we're so much more clever than Africans and Asians and Latin Americans, or is it because we've offshored the human costs of capitalism? Do our rights come at the cost of suppressing rights elsewhere?


These aren't open questions, they're pleading you're ignorant, so nobody knows the answer (I suppose the President has set the precedent that anyone can do it).

Everywhere on Earth - Everywhere - is way better off than it was two hundred years ago. Everywhere is richer. Everywhere is healthier. Everywhere is less violent. Have the benefits of the enlightenment/industrialisation/the scientific revolution been shared equally and fairly? No. HA HA HA HA No. No. No. But has everyone benefitted? Yes. The kind of game where one compares the life of the King of Hawaii in 1800 to a homeless man in Hilo today is not a fair comparison (and really, given the choice, a well informed person probably takes the latter.) It's partly because the literate of 200 years ago are the 1% of today, so if you don't give it any thought at all, you can think about comparing them directly (but very delibrately naively, 'cause you gotta miss that 50% child mortality rate, the wife dying in childbirth, the seeping wounds and gangrene, the kids dying in the wars).

Today, the highest infant mortality rate is in Angola, at just under 10% (UN Numbers). In 1950 - is was almost 25%. In 1800, ~50%. Pick whereever you like, whatever stat you like, and it's better, better, better. GDPs are up everywhere. Life expectancies are up everywhere. Literacy rates are up everywhere.
   323. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5624069)
This is not the only place this is going on. And it's indicative of a general overweening trend that has burgeoned and is beginning to flourish.


I don't know about that --

I remember a Very Special Family Ties episode back in the 80s where Tina Yothers leads a fight to stop the school from banning Mark Twain from the library.

EDIT: Actually, it was even a two-parter
   324. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5624071)
I more or less agree with @320: "Judaeo-Christian" goes back much further than our Muslim/Islam/Arab problem, especially in intellectual journals. It is also a term used almost exclusively to bolster a line of Western tradition by Christians, and not so much, if at all, by Jews. I am willing to be corrected on this observation.
   325. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5624072)
Sessions praising the tradition of Anglo-Saxon law is like Trump praising the tradition of colorblindness. Or vice versa. Nothing wrong with the traditions, but they've had better spokesmen.
   326. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5624075)
Today, the highest infant mortality rate is in Angola, at just under 10% (UN Numbers). In 1950 - is was almost 25%. In 1800, ~50%. Pick whereever you like, whatever stat you like, and it's better, better, better.


This assumes more human babies is a good thing.
   327. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5624076)
In order to shore up the base, I would like to offer Andy a spot as my running mate.... sorry Mouse - you made the shortlist, but the base doesn't care for your high bar on impeachment.

I can think of no higher honor, but I want Trump to stick around for the role of First Albatross around the neck of every ####### Republican who defends him in any way, shape or form for the next 33 months. Hell, where do you think all the energy in the Democratic base is coming from?

Getting rid of Trump alone solves nothing. You need to take his whole goddam party down with him, and he's just the man to do it.
   328. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5624077)
325

I wish you wouldn't focus so much on messengers as on message. It doesn't matter who it says it or which media organ it emanates, there's a substantive content, and by concentrating on the ad hominem, you evade addressing that content.
   329. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5624080)
It wasn't designed to exclude Muslims any more than it was designed to exclude Buddhists.


I don't know about the historic usage of the term, but Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all People of the Book, with a shared history, geography and many religious elements and heritage that Buddhists obviously can't claim. If you are going to link the shared heritage of Jews and Christians, well clearly the next in line to be included would be Muslims. Of course Christians tend not to want to do that because they like the implication it all started with Jews and was carried forth by Christians, adding in Islam after Christianity kind of ruins that narrative.
   330. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:38 AM (#5624081)
This assumes more human babies is a good thing.


Meh. It assumes having children and then them dying is a bad thing. It says nothing about the choice between having and not having.
   331. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5624083)
I wish you wouldn't focus so much on messengers as on message. It doesn't matter who it says it or which media organ it emanates, there's a substantive content, and by concentrating on the ad hominem, you evade addressing that content.


Nonsense. One can analyze the content alone, of course, but it is perfectly rational to analyze both message and messenger, since every rational adult in the world understands that context matters, and who the messenger is is the most critical of all context in understanding the message.
   332. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5624088)
The Duluth story has nothing on this one, from my alma mater: Professor uses the word \"######\" in a class on hate speech: hijinks ensue.
You'd think that students who sign up for a class on "Cultural Freedoms: Hate Speech, Blasphemy, and Pornography" might have understood what they were getting themselves into.

But no, several students in Lawrence Rosen's Princeton anthropology class walked out last week, and made formal complaints, after Rosen provided examples of supposedly offensive speech. Among other things, the instructor asked which was worse: a white man punching a black man in the face, or a white man using the N-word. Rosen, who is Jewish, used the actual slur several times.
(Worse, he had the audacity not to apologize to people he hadn't wronged.) So far, the university administration is standing by him.
   333. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5624089)
329

First, there's a perception problem with Muslims/Islam, in a way that there was with Germans in the @ WWII. Not all of them were Nazi,s or sympathizers, but there were a lot of those and that created an image. Same with Muslims.

Second, and this is related, to the first, that it's a numbers problem creating an impression: Jews and "Judaeo" are a very small minority. Easier to pretend that they are part of the greater (Chrisitan) whole. The best thing about "Judaeo-Christian" is it played and plays a part in fostering secularism, even agnostic/atheistic secularism. And that's an improvement.
   334. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5624094)
331:

"Perfectly rational", even if it applies, is hardly a strenuous test that does pertinent sorting. It really just confuses things. It's part and parcel of the problem here: there's much concentration on the superficially topical, but the deficit leaves you with nutrition-hunger. Lot of calories here, not much nourishment.

EDITED for typos and solecisms.
   335. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5624100)
Blah blah blah.
Did you already use up the "I don't care" quotas for the month, Mouse?
   336. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5624102)
332:

But what would Tina Yothers do?

It would be interesting to know who objected and who walked out. They probably object to the temerity of such an idea for a class. It should only be taught by committed partisans, not objective academicians.
   337. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5624104)
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn isn't about "the N-word," it's about "nigger." Treating the word as if it has magical superpowers like Yahweh or Voldemort, and as if context isn't an actual thing, is a step towards normalizing the mentality that wants to ban Mark Twain.

But as there are very few things in this world as devastating to the concept of "nigger" as Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, the effort will always fail. When Twain's book first came out it was attacked by racists; today it's attacked for being racist. And yet it's never lost its central position in the American literary tradition, while something like "Uncle Tom's Cabin" has become a curio. It's undefeatable.


This is not the only place this is going on. And it's indicative of a general overweening trend that has burgeoned and is beginning to flourish.

Beginning? The book was banned from the Concord Library on the occasion of its original publication. It was banned in Denver, Omaha and Brooklyn in 1902 to 1905.

A political cartoon from 1957; that was after New York City schools removed the book from the curriculum to approving comments by the NAACP. In 1982, the Mark Twain Intermediate School in Virginia removed Huckleberry Finn. A minor local publisher got a wave of press coverage seven years ago for producing a de-niggered (and also de-Injun'd) edition of the book, a whole 7,500 copies of it.

"Huckleberry Finn" is one of the ten most banned books of this decade. It was one of the ten most banned books of the previous decade, and of the decade before that, and so on. And yet every time it happens, it makes news, because the story is about censors being misguided. A book that the public didn't understand and didn't support would not get the same "Here We Go Again" headlines, decade after decade. The "ban Huckleberry" movement will continue beginning to flourish long after we're all dead, without ever succeeding.
   338. BrianBrianson Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5624105)
The reason you take classes is to learn - it's a lot more excusable for 19 year olds to be ignorant than 71 year olds.
   339. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5624106)
Omarosa Manicotti remains the gift that keeps on giving...

Man... it's been kind of a long, strange trip with her. I remember making fun of her in 2016 - with Trumpkins pooh-poohing it because "It's not like she's going to work in the WH".... and then she DOES get a job in the WH.... and now she's on some puerile reality show blabbing about how it's "not gonna be OK" and "Mike Pence is scary because Jesus tells him to say things".

It's doubly awesome because I imagine there's a fair bit of overlap between Trump voters and dumb reality show watchers.

It's true what they say... when the universe closes a door, sometimes it opens a window... and a reality TV star jumps through it!
   340. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5624107)
Did you already use up all of the "I don't care" quotas for the month, Mouse?


So long as you focus relentlessly on dumb "But Jimmy knew Alice, who hung out with Fred during lunch ..." nonsense I will always have plenty of "I don't care."

Still curious as to your Putin number though.
   341. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5624108)
So far, the university administration is standing by him.
FTFY
   342. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5624109)
Brian: the problem is that 19-year olds have been raised to think they already know everything. (Or worse, that the idea of knowing things, rather than having feelz, is just an oppressive construct.) To wit, from that same article I linked:

Kevin Ramos '21 said he plans to drop the class in light of the incident.

"The professor saw how uncomfortable the students were with his language," said Ramos. "If he doesn't respect the students' opinion, then it's not worth learning from him."
(Emphasis added.)
   343. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5624110)
The reason you take classes is to learn - it's a lot more excusable for 19 year olds to be ignorant than 71 year olds.


In fact I expect nonsense from 19 year old "adults" (I should know I have one). I did, said, and thought plenty of dumb stuff at that age, that I look back and think "Really?", and so did everyone here if they are willing to be honest.

Kids acting immature is not exactly news.

EDIT: "the problem is that 19-year olds have been raised to think they already know everything"; yeah, in the past 19 year old "adults" were never positive they knew everything! /sarcasm.
   344. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5624111)
But what would Tina Yothers do?


Hey - I was just pointing out that I don't see the burgeoning, flourishing or overwhelming trend... I mean, Family Ties was a top 10 Nielsen show when this episode - a Very Special Two-Part episode - aired.... and it aired almost 30 years ago to the day.

FTR - current me maintains the same opinion that 14 yo me had before and after watching that episode regarding both Twain and banned books.
   345. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5624112)
Does this photo of Ronald Reagan greeting average, ordinary, casually dressed Russian citizens on the streets of Moscow help anyone determine their Putin number?

Tina Yothers herself is no worse than a 4.
   346. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5624113)
So long as you focus relentlessly on dumb "But Jimmy knew Alice, who hung out with Fred during lunch ..." nonsense I will always have plenty of "I don't care."
Oh? Where were all of these pearls of wisdom during the 15+ months of leaks attacking the campaign/transition/administration?
   347. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5624114)
325

I wish you wouldn't focus so much on messengers as on message. It doesn't matter who it says it or which media organ it emanates, there's a substantive content, and by concentrating on the ad hominem, you evade addressing that content.


But when the message is the equivalent of saying "the dog is a noble animal", what is there to respond to, other than noting the disconnect between the message and the messenger? We don't need an authoritarian immigrant basher like Jeff Sessions to remind us of the virtues of Anglo-Saxon law, any more than we need Putin defenders to lecture us on the value of the first amendment.
   348. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5624115)
Oh? Where were all of these pearls of wisdom during the 15+ months of leaks attacking the campaign/transition/administration?


Hahahaha... yeah... were it not for the "leaks", why, everybody would think that the campaign/transition/administration was a finely oiled machine, staffed with the nation's best and brightest, upholding the finest ideals and traditions of the Republic.

Damn you Deep State! Damn you Media! Stop corrupting our nation with false narratives about the Orange Reality TV star and his cadre of.... reality TV stars!
   349. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5624116)
So about this BO portrait now hanging in the Smithsonian: There's much to like but what's with Obama's left hand? Why is his pinky nearly as long as a small station wagon? And is the hand backward and he's sporting six fingers?
   350. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5624117)
If you had done what you pretended, it still would be bizarre; you weren't posting words at random, but to make a point. But you did no such thing. You linked to insane TPM commentary about Sessions. With no "Hey, isn't this absurd?", the only reasonable conclusion is that you were endorsing the TPM commentary. Don't try, when people point out how dumb it was, to wash your hands of it and say, "Hey, I didn't say that.\"


Of course you're entirely right about this, but it's interesting to see the blind spot wherein the multinational tag team of TPM/zonk does precisely the same thing, probably even worse, on the matter of RUSSIA! RUSSIA!
   351. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5624118)
337

Points taken. And good points they are.

If I have any qualms about what you say, it concerns the possible implication of your conclusion:

The "ban Huckleberry" movement will continue to flourish long after we're all dead, without ever succeeding.

This attitude tends to deflate our tendency toward concern. It encourages us not to be vigilant because, after all, the censorship urge has always been there and it's always on the whole failed. But, it's failed because there's vigilance, concern, and strenuously vocal objection to the censorship. Let's not rely on smugness based solely on past failures. A smugness that encourages not responding to the censorship.

Moreover, this disregards the problem of covert censorship. Many schools, for instance, are intimidated into not even considering teaching Huck Finn or Mockingbird--why put up with all that static and hoorah?

EDITed
   352. Greg K Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:18 AM (#5624119)
YC compared this to "Judeo-Christian"; I'd actually say that judeo-christian is a much more loaded and historically unsupportable term that was just designed to include Jews and exclude Muslims.It wasn't designed to exclude Muslims any more than it was designed to exclude Buddhists. It was designed to include Jews. It's rather misleading, to be sure; the Judeo and Christian parts don't really fit together very well at all. And if I wanted to squint and find a reason to be insulted I could. But it was well-intentioned.

If anything I would think it excludes Greeks, as I'm not sure there's a neat line between the classical tradition and early Christian theology.
   353. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5624120)
What's with Obama's left hand? Why is his pinky nearly as long as a small station wagon?


Why do you think Michelle is always smiling?
   354. BrianBrianson Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5624122)
Brian: the problem is that 19-year olds have been raised to think they already know everything. (


19 year olds thinking they know everything has been a two-edged sword for the last several eons. A lot of progress comes from it, as does a lot of disruption. Maybe it's solvable by the enlightenment, IDK.
   355. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5624123)
Why do you think Michelle is always smiling?
She likes the Volvo V90?
   356. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5624124)
So about this Obama portrait now hanging in the Smithsonian: There's much to like but what's with Obama's left hand? Why is his pinky nearly as long as a small station wagon? And is his hand backward and he's sporting six fingers?


All I know about it is that the artist likes to depict black people holding severed white people heads.

Some people try to excuse this by pointing out the interpretations in question are just another in a long line of relatively famous biblical depictions previously tackled by a whole truckload of artists throughout history, but others of us know the truth.
   357. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5624125)
All I know about it is that the artist likes to depict black people holding severed white people heads.
Wait, what?
   358. BDC Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5624126)
I'm going to be a bit contrarian about Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird. Both are strongly anti-racist books; there is no conceivable doubt about that. (They are also very good books, I agree, neither one overrated.)

Mockingbird is more earnest; to appreciate Huck Finn's anti-racism requires more of a sense of irony, as in the famous exchange:

"Good gracious! anybody hurt?"

"No'm. Killed a ######."

"Well, it's lucky; because sometimes people do get hurt."


But both books are about white anti-racist heroism. The important thing in Huck Finn is that Huck comes to the realization that Jim has been born free. The important thing in Mockingbird is Atticus' quixotic idealism, and what Scout learns from that.

The thing to do is not to remove them from curricula, but to add very good books by black authors that present characters like Jim and Tom Robinson as having independent agency.

At that point you run into yet another problem: that the word \"######\" has been inextricable from African-American literature. I always mention Fences by August Wilson as the best example (being a baseball play, naturally); it can't exist without the word; it couldn't be faithful to the experience it tries to convey without the word. What do you do? Do you seal African-American lit in a cultural bottle: something only to be read and taught by black people? That seems pretty counter-productive. Or do you face the culture and the history for what it is?

Of course I come down on the latter side (like Morty and Gonfalon), just with a slight reservation about the über-classic status of Huck Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird.

EDIT: I did not realize till just now that the nanny would get involved. OK, I won't go back and circumvent it.
   359. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5624127)
All I know about it is that the artist likes to depict black people holding severed white people heads.

Wait, what?

Kathy Griffin is black?
   360. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5624128)
If it weren't for 19-year olds taking to the streets, we'd still be in Vietnam. (And why doesn't the Vietnam anti-war movement get a parade when veterans get something every two weeks.)

But, it seems to me, and this may be dues to the all-pervasive media culture that is now, that what's noted in Post #332 use to only happen, or mostly happen, pre-college. Now, there's some special interest coterie in many universities buffing their precious sensibilities to a shine on all sorts of pretexts.
   361. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5624132)
Oh? Where were all of these pearls of wisdom during the 15+ months of leaks attacking the campaign/transition/administration?


Um, what? Were leaks invented in the last 2 years? What exactly are you suggesting I should have been clutching my pearls over? Specific instances please, so I can know how much smelling salts I should have on hand.
   362. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5624133)
What's with Obama's left hand? Why is his pinky nearly as long as a small station wagon?

Why do you think Michelle is always smiling?

She likes the Volvo V90?

She's given Barack's pinky the J.D. Powers Award for Customer Satisfaction for the last 31 years.
   363. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5624134)
Kathy Griffin is black?


Sort of. She's a Nitwit With Attitude.
   364. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5624135)
What do you do?


You read and teach the books for what they are, realizing that the word is a miniscule, virtually meaningless part of the whole -- just as it is with many current hip-hip songs.
   365. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5624137)
what's noted in Post #332 use to only happen, or mostly happen, pre-college. Now, there's some special interest coterie in many universities buffing their precious sensibilities to a shine on all sorts of pretexts.


Um, no. The teen age rebel (which extends into the early twenties) is and has been such a well used (hackneyed even) trope because it is grounded in how humans behave as they transition from childhood to adulthood. There are cultural and physiological reasons, but expecting college age "adults" to act sensibly and maturely, and if they don't, blaming "media" or "parents" or whatever other random thing you want to blame is completely anti-historical.

Young adults rebelling against authority is completely normal. So normal an argument could be made that when the rebellion is silly then the authority is doing a pretty good job. Since there is no Vietnam to rebel over they end up as rebels without a (good) cause and so rebel over silly things like this.
   366. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:42 AM (#5624138)
Um, what? Were leaks invented in the last 2 years?
The obtusity never sleeps.
   367. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5624140)
All I know about it is that the artist likes to depict black people holding severed white people heads.
Wait, what?


I fall behind on outrages when traveling, too...

275. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5623961)
Apparently this Kehinde Wiley paints black women holding severed white heads.

Moving right along...


Which I can only assume came from any number of the world's finest news sources...

SICK: Artist Who Painted Obama’s Official Portrait Known For Painting Blacks Beheading Whites

Or

Obama artist paints black women holding severed white heads

Or

Obama's Portrait Artist Is Known for Paintings of Black People Beheading White People

Or

Obama Portrait Artist Kehinde Wiley Once Painted Black Women Decapitating White Women

Or

So, what’s the deal with Obama’s portraitist and decapitated white women anyway?

Or

Artist who Obama chose for portrait exposed for racist ‘severed head’ paintings (photos)

Or

Obama Portrait Artist’s Other Works Include Decapitated White People

Or

Obama Portrait Artist Likes to Paint African-American Women Holding Heads of Decapitated White Women

Or

Barack’s Portrait Artist Is Famous for Painting Decapitated White Women

Or

Obama Portrait Painter Once Painted Piece Depicting A Black Woman Beheading A White Woman

Now.... some crazy people have tried to excuse it by pointing out that depictions of Judith beheading Holofernes is a rather famous and oft-depicted subject matter that goes back centuries, but then, if that were the case - then many of those same crazy people might also make accusations of dog whistling... and we KNOW nobody would do that.
   368. Stormy JE Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5624143)
Which I can only assume came from any number of the world's finest news sources...
Oy. I'll have a look later. Thanks.
   369. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5624144)
Of course, Huck's moment of transcendence on the raft is ensconced in magnificent irony. He knows he's going to Hell, but he will not betray Jim

The problem with objecting to words is that they are only, ONLY, that. Words, They represent feelings, but they aren't in themselves anything of the sort. Steven Pinker a long time ago made this point: if we could magically make all the words we disapprove of, like niigger, disappear, new ones would come into existence readily as long as the feeling is there. Obsessively focusing on the word ducks dealing with the feeling.

So, the objection in large part is social and political. And those who would expunge terms such as ###### from our discourse are really after power, leverage. That's the point of taboos. First, you can't say ######, but colored's all right, then you can't say that, but Negro is okay. Then... and so it goes. It's not just about the substantive issue; it's not even just about getting your way. It's about the comfy feeling you get with knocking a perceived adversary's dick in the dirt.
   370. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5624145)
The obtusity never sleeps.


But your Putin number clearly does. I assume you are sitting Pretty at a #1 or #2.
   371. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5624146)
Seller's remorse? Politico:
Corker weighs his options as GOP frets about losing Tennessee
The two-term senator is being urged to reconsider his retirement amid concerns Republicans could lose his seat in November.

Retiring Sen. Bob Corker is “listening” to Republicans urging him to run for reelection, according to a person close to him, a development that would quell anxiety among Republicans over losing a must-win seat to Democrats this fall.

The two-term Tennessee GOP senator decided to call it quits in September amid an on-again, off-again dispute with President Donald Trump that has eroded his standing with the party’s base. But now a faction of Republicans in Tennessee and Washington are worried that the favorite for the Republican Senate nomination, Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), could lose the general election — and with it the Senate majority. They want Corker to get back in to hold the seat...and there are signs that he is open to it, despite the steep climb a Republican primary might entail.

...An internal poll taken in late January shows former Democratic Gov. Phil Bredesen narrowly edging out Blackburn in a hypothetical match-up. With Republicans controlling just 51 seats, a loss in Tennessee and other competitive races could put the Senate in play — despite an electoral map tilted heavily in the GOP’s favor.

The poll...shows Bredesen up 47 to 45, despite a sample that was overweighted with Republicans. The survey shows that voters preferred a generic Republican over a Democrat and strongly approved of Trump, signs that even in a Republican-leaning state like Tennessee, Blackburn is in for a tough race.

...Blackburn’s campaign insisted she was in the race to stay, whether Corker runs or not. Blackburn’s allies argue she will unite the GOP in the conservative state and crush Bredesen in the fall. ...Public polls show Blackburn is a heavy favorite over former Rep. Stephen Fincher in the primary to succeed Corker, and her allies argue the state is so Republican that she can’t lose after winning the primary. Trump won nearly 2-to-1 against Hillary Clinton in Tennessee. She also raised $2 million in her first quarter as a candidate, a significant haul. Meanwhile, a Club for Growth poll from January showed Blackburn trouncing Corker.

...McIntosh also argued that Corker re-entering the race would only weaken the GOP by reopening ideological chasms within the party. Indeed, there is a long- running feud between Tennessee’s more moderate Republicans and conservatives like Blackburn.

...“Anyone seriously sizing it up would have to say Mrs. Blackburn would be somewhat ahead of Bredesen but not a lot,” [former GOP mayor of Knoxville Victor] Ashe said. “Depending on how the national situation goes, it could be extremely competitive. It would be hard to attack [Bredesen’s] record as governor because so many Republicans like him.” Former Tennessee Republican Gov. Don Sundquist was blunt when asked about Blackburn: “You can say on the record I’m not supporting her.”

...The distaste for Blackburn in some parts of the party is driving the campaign to recruit Corker to get back in. Those Republicans argue that she could blow a winnable race, pointing to Bredesen’s coalitions of Republican supporters when he won two gubernatorial races. “Tennessee by any normal standard is a Republican state. I think it’s only close with Blackburn,” said a top Tennessee Republican urging Corker to get back in. “The problem is Marsha’s a polarizing force.”

...Yet Corker would almost certainly need a blessing from Trump to have any hope of beating Blackburn, who has received money from Vice President Mike Pence’s political action committee. Corker has reached out to the White House to gauge Trump’s support, according to a source familiar with those conversations.

...The last-gasp effort to recruit Corker is an awkward topic in the Senate GOP right now. ...Blackburn would be just the sixth female senator in the Republican Caucus if she were to win. “This situation is baffling since we need more Republican women in the Senate — not less,” said a senior Senate GOP aide.
   372. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5624148)
But when the message is the equivalent of saying "the dog is a noble animal", what is there to respond to,
Um, nothing, Andy. That's the point.
We don't need an authoritarian immigrant basher like Jeff Sessions to remind us of the virtues of Anglo-Saxon law,
Uh, he wasn't talking to you.
   373. BDC Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5624155)
You read and teach the books for what they are, realizing that the word is a miniscule, virtually meaningless part of the whole

But it's not. A keynote phrase in Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man, for instance, is "Keep This ######-Boy Running." The word there is neither minuscule (it's literally capitalized), nor meaningless; and it's not replaceable.
   374. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5624157)
It's literally the entire one-word title of Dick Gregory's biography.

As he said, "Wherever you are, if ever you hear the word "nigger" again, remember they are advertising my book."
   375. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5624159)
As a proportion of the whole work it is very much minuscule
   376. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5624160)
Yeah, it's only the central theme. And the Bible is basically a baby name registry.
   377. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5624162)
As he said, "Wherever you are, if ever you hear the word \"######\" again, remember they are advertising my book."

And no one does, except to make this point.
   378. BDC Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5624164)
Or in Fences. "######" is not just some neutral thing that the characters call one another. Troy Maxson uses it to his sons pointedly, to put them down and assert power over them. He uses it with his friend Bono (who uses it back) to establish very close camaraderie. But when his wife Rose comes on stage, Troy shifts to "Negro," maybe after forgetting himself once or twice and feeling her disapproval. It's crucial to the language of the play.

   379. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5624171)
"All right! We'll give some land to the African-Americans and the Asian immigrants. But we DON'T want the Irish!"
   380. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5624172)
It's just like a @#!@$!@ PEANUT FARM!!!!!

The point of anticorruption laws is to prevent the possibility of outside influence, so that no one has to wonder, after the fact, whether it happened. Yet one of the country's primary conflict-of-interest laws doesn't apply to the president. By holding on to his assets, Trump has chosen to test whether the Emoluments Clause follows suit (he got one case dismissed in January; two others are active). So the president remains in business with the world's two most populous countries. Even if he tries to avoid a bias, there's a clear feeling in foreign capitals that currying favor with his business can't hurt. It's a global perception problem, at best. "He does not forget his friends," said Emin Agalarov, who helped broker the infamous Russia campaign meeting in Trump Tower, according to Donald Trump Jr. When President Trump announced a travel ban from seven Muslim-majority countries, it was hard to miss that the ban excluded Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Azerbaijan and the United Arab Emirates--all places where he had previously pursued business deals. In May the prime minister of Georgia made a visit to the White House, where, according to two of Trump's former business partners, the president asked about his old project in the former Soviet republic.
   381. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5624175)
And drip drip drip drip!

“I’m quite confident that in this particular instance the FBI followed the established protocol,” said Wray.

That comment subtly pushed back against the White House, which has at times seemed to fault the FBI for its handling of the clearance process.

“What I can tell you is that the FBI submitted a partial report on the investigation in question in March, and then a completed background investigation in late July,” Wray continued. “Soon thereafter we received requests for follow-up inquiry and we did the follow-up and provided that information in November. And then we administratively closed the file in January.”


I can only assume Kelly is living some weird Inception nightmare, where months pass in the dream while only 40 minutes pass in reality.
   382. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5624177)
Which I can only assume came from any number of the world's finest news sources...

Oy. I'll have a look later. Thanks.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll stumble across all of those links while making your usual daily rounds.
   383. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5624179)
Among other things, the instructor asked which was worse: a white man punching a black man in the face, or a white man using the N-word.


Is the answer to this "lesser of two evils" question obvious to everyone, I hope? Or are we so far gone that we can't answer the question. (As in, we refuse to provide an answer.)
   384. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5624180)
The first four novels in the Jeeves-Wooster series are of equal, excellent quality. The three that follow the first one, Thank You, Jeeves, are often noted and discussed. TYJ isn't, and the tacit reason for this is that the now forbidden word is used a number of times, all by Bertie Wooster (Jeeves wouldn't stoop to the vernacular or idiomatic), and all in reference to, and great admiration of, a troupe of minstrels. He admires them greatly and wants to seek them out for tips on improving his banjolele-playing. (Bertie also spends about the last thirty pages or so of the novel in blackface, skulking in the night). Of course, the word didn't even have the same opprobrious connotation in England at the time (neither did appearing in blackface) that it had in America. And, as I say, his admiration for the players reaches the level of reverence. Still, comments at Amazon will reveal to you that for some people their presentism will not be cracked psychologically.

People, in my opinion, can't be truly free until they can rise about obsessively and narcissistically adhering to their, or only their, point of view. (And I say this as a member of an ethnic group which has been, and is, subject to slurs.) The solution lies within you. You have the remedy for that wrong. Why should you care? The answer of course: social and political jousting for position. Well, that's what we are all driven to do, so let's put our cards on the table.
   385. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5624185)
Is the answer to this "lesser of two evils" question obvious to everyone, I hope? Or are we so far gone that we can't answer the question. (As in, we refuse to provide an answer.)


Probably depends on whether the black man in question is famous for depicting severed white heads on canvas, doesn't it?
   386. Ishmael Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5624188)
Or in Fences. "######" is not just some neutral thing that the characters call one another. Troy Maxson uses it to his sons pointedly, to put them down and assert power over them. He uses it with his friend Bono (who uses it back) to establish very close camaraderie. But when his wife Rose comes on stage, Troy shifts to "Negro," maybe after forgetting himself once or twice and feeling her disapproval. It's crucial to the language of the play.

That reminds me of how Larsen uses the word in Passing. Jack Bellew calls Clare "Nig" throughout the novel, as a term of endearment, and a reference to her dark skin. We know, though he doesn't, that she is "passing," so there's always an ironic menace to it, and maybe a suggestion that Jack is engaged in conscious self-deception.
Clare handed her husband his tea and laid her hand on his arm with an affectionate little gesture. Speaking with confidence as well as with amusement, she said: "My goodness, Jack! What difference would it make if, after all these years, you were to find out that I was one or two per cent coloured?"

Bellew put out his hand in a repudiating fling, definite and final. "Oh, no. Nig," he declared, "nothing like that with me. I know you're no ######, so it's all right. You can get as black as you please as far as I'm concerned, since I know you're no ######. I draw the line at that. No ###### in my family. Never have been and never will be."

There's a sort of Chekov's gun thing going on. You know that the word will eventually be turned on Clare at some point. Then when Jack finds out that she has black ancestry:
"So you're a ######, a damned dirty ######!" His voice was a snarl and a moan, an expression of rage and of pain.

And moments later, when she falls, or is pushed, from the upper story window:
One moment Clare had been there, a vital glowing thing, like a flame of red and gold. The next she was gone.

There was a gasp of horror, and above it a sound not quite human, like a beast in agony. "Nig! My God! Nig!"

I don't know if it would work in quite the same way without utilizing the power of the word itself.
   387. BDC Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5624191)
which was worse: a white man punching a black man in the face, or a white man using the N-word

Is the answer to this "lesser of two evils" question obvious to everyone, I hope


Hardly. Why's he punching him? Are they friends who got drunk? Was the black man actively threatening people, and needed punching to protect a third party? Either situation might be "preferable" (given we're making this hypothetical valuation) to a white man asserting racism in various contexts.

Sticks and stones, OK, but noses heal, people kiss and make up, we'll all be sober in the morning. Supremacist attitudes are more durable.

Teaching questions are supposed to elicit thought, not to find the quick obvious answer. Obviously :)
   388. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5624195)
Among other things, the instructor asked which was worse: a white man punching a black man in the face, or a white man using the N-word.

I dunno, but you might ask Al Weill.

   389. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5624197)
I think the idea with Ray’s hypo is that we keep all those external factors the same and then ask the question.
   390. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5624198)
Teaching questions are supposed to elicit thought, not to find the quick obvious answer. Obviously :)


Nearly 25 years later, my D+ in Calculus is finally defended! Well, for reasons beyond skipping the weekly quizzes because they were at 8 friggin AM!
   391. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5624199)
I can only assume Kelly is living some weird Inception nightmare, where months pass in the dream while only 40 minutes pass in reality.


It's obvious the White House screwed up. Allegations from two women, both who told the FBI, both who were willing to come out publicly, one with possible photographic evidence, one who filed for a restraining order at the time, and we have Porter admitting that his hand did in fact go through a plate glass window at one point ("accidentally"). My hand has never gone through a plate glass window, but, well, maybe it could happen in some innocuous way, I guess.... similar to how Jack Tripper would end up falling over the sofa once every two weeks when if you lived to be 500 it might never happen but... maybe.

I mean, sure, it's possible in an "aliens landing from outer space" sort of way that these women are lying, or were paid off, or something - though that wouldn't explain the contemporaneous police report - and it's possible for one woman to have imagined it but far less likely for two women to have imagined it -- but as far as the White House is concerned, they're not deciding whether he should be convicted of anything; they're only deciding whether he should keep his job. And it's clear that he shouldn't.

Now: What more do people want? The WH to admit it screwed up? Kelly to admit it? McGhan to do so? Trump to admit something (although it's not clear that he actually knew much of anything). Kelly to lose his job? McGhan to lose his job? Trump to be impeached?

Where do you want to go from here? I'm not saying that a further goal is invalid, just wondering what precisely it is. Because so far all I've heard the press ask during the briefings is whether the WH is for domestic abuse, which is the dumbest of questions.
   392. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5624201)
which was worse: a white man punching a black man in the face, or a white man using the N-word

Is the answer to this "lesser of two evils" question obvious to everyone, I hope

Hardly. Why's he punching him?


Because he's black. That's the hypo. You seem to be going out of your way not to answer, which is sort of what I predicted.
   393. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5624203)
Andy also with a non-answer.
   394. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5624205)
From here they want to emote and virtue signal. That’s what they always want to do.
   395. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5624206)
Because he's black. That's the hypo. You seem to be going out of your way not to answer, which is sort of what I predicted.


Not as you stated it, but sure let's pretend it is 100% obvious that is what you implied. It is a silly hypothetical, however, in order to play along with it and hopefully minimize your whining; the vast majority of the time physical violence is uncalled for and much worse than name calling, no matter how vile the name called.

Happy? (I bet not)
   396. -- Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5624207)
They really do believe that harboring “supremicist attitudes” is worse than committing a violent felony on the person of a black guy. They subscribe to a bizarre philosophy so naturally we will get bizarre results.
   397. Traderdave Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5624209)
Because so far all I've heard the press ask during the briefings is whether the WH is for domestic abuse, which is the dumbest of questions.


It would have been that in the first 44 administrations, but we have a President who aggressively defends & accepts the very thin excuses of a child molester and a wife beater against significant evidence of their guilt. It's not such a crazy question anymore.
   398. Morty Causa Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5624210)
Or in Fences. "######" is not just some neutral thing that the characters call one another. Troy Maxson uses it to his sons pointedly, to put them down and assert power over them. He uses it with his friend Bono (who uses it back) to establish very close camaraderie. But when his wife Rose comes on stage, Troy shifts to "Negro," maybe after forgetting himself once or twice and feeling her disapproval. It's crucial to the language of the play.

That's one of the uses of words and language, and it applies to many other terms and epithets. "N" is not a separate species, either linguistically or socially and politically. It's just part and parcel of the same old same old that has existed since mankind has existed (and I bet animals do it).

   399. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: February 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5624212)
Hardly. Why's he punching him? Are they friends who got drunk? Was the black man actively threatening people, and needed punching to protect a third party? Either situation might be "preferable" (given we're making this hypothetical valuation) to a white man asserting racism in various contexts.
So you're saying there might be blame on many sides, and that the puncher might have been a very fine person?
   400. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: February 13, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5624213)
Now: What more do people want? The WH to admit it screwed up? Kelly to admit it? McGhan to do so? Trump to admit something (although it's not clear that he actually knew much of anything). Kelly to lose his job? McGhan to lose his job? Trump to be impeached?


List of wants:

1) Kelly to explain himself and by proxy, the WH unraveling and admitting to a bucketful of lies

2) A full accounting of what other held-up security clearances exist... hint, Jared, hint.

3) What the administration policy is regarding people flagged and denied security clearance - what steps do they take to resolve/investigate such flagged applications

4) Is it WH policy to simply say "Oh well, you just get a never-ending 'temporary clearance' because this is how we roll"

Once upon a time, items 2, 3, and 4 -- and probably item 1, too -- seem to fit the perfect definition of what Congressional Oversight Committees do... I imagine Congressional Intelligence committees likewise have a vested interest security clearances and why they are essentially ignored.

I vaguely recall Congressional committees used to do this sort of thing... something about some woman and endangering national security with e-mails or something.

I realize that such committees have a full plate --- what with volunteering themselves full-time to the Carter Page Legal Defense fund -- but perhaps a reassessment of priorities is in order?

Or - I guess we could just wait until the next election, where others may decide this separation of powers thing, this checks-and-balances thing, this oversight thing... these things mean more than fashioning #THEMEMOs in order to protect the civil liberties of former coffee fetchers.
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