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Monday, February 12, 2018

OTP 12 February 2018: Jeff Samardzija explains why politics and baseball rarely mix

However, there were several curveballs that forced Giants’ players to think outside the box, including one from a fan who asked a trio that included catcher Buster Posey, reliever Cory Gearrin and starting pitcher Jeff Samardzija whether they think baseball players should have a role in voicing their political opinions like football and basketball players have in recent years.

The question temporarily stumped Gearrin and Posey, so as his teammates waited, Samardzija decided to jump in and share his perspective.

“I don’t think so, not necessarily because we’re here to entertain you guys. Every time we step on the field, it’s important,” Samardzija said, before pausing temporarily while a loud round of applause petered out.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 12, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 2005 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, san francisco giants, spring training

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   901. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5625129)

Kind of, you know... the point.

Then Trump couldn't have "obstructed justice" by doing it.
A real lawyer -- especially one who had been involved in many law enforcement-related meetings -- would know that success is not an element of obstruction of justice.
   902. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5625130)
One can only imagine what Trump has asked Hope Hicks to do:

At one point, he summoned Priebus—to swat a fly. Priebus seemed to have been willing to endure almost any indignity to stay in Trump’s favor. There was that scene right out of The Manchurian Candidate when, at a Cabinet meeting, the president’s most powerful advisers virtually competed to see who could be more obsequious; Priebus won hands down, declaring what a “blessing” it was to serve the president.
   903. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5625131)
It's almost as if I didn't type "isn't a shrewd move" (#876).


And then it's almost as if you didn't add to it, "because it wouldn't shut down the investigation." Go figure.

And even more then, it's almost as if zonk didn't add to it, "kind of ... you know ... the point."

I'm not sure you two even understand what Ray's comment means, which is kind of ... you know ... hilarious.
   904. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5625134)
Actually, I guess Tobias the Blowhard might be better... but we know how they feel about cockholster jokes.
   905. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5625135)
At least from first reports the shooter wasn't likely a Muslim.**

** And anyone who thinks this doesn't matter must have been living on Mars for the past 17 years.


I'm sure your cheerleading of this will bring great comfort to the dead kids and their families.


Your faux cluelessness is so utterly predictable. As if you don't understand how Trump would've used a Muslim shooter to drum up hatred against Muslims.
   906. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5625137)
As if you don't understand how Trump would've used a Muslim shooter to drum up hatred against Muslims.


And what's really important here isn't the deaths, or gun culture, or easy guns -- it's Muslims.

Hopefully you can now see why people have no interest in joining in any kind of political coalition with you and yours, particularly when you spend virtually your entire political existence calling people racists and sexists and homophobes. Which is why we can't get things like sane gun control accomplished.

So ... way to go! You must be so proud.
   907. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5625139)
Your faux cluelessness is so utterly predictable. As if you don't understand how Trump would've used a Muslim shooter to drum up hatred against Muslims.


If only you had even faux concern for the victims here, but you can't even muster that in your rush to fetishize Muslims for not committing mass murder.

Also: Muslim terrorists don't shoot up schools in the first place. That's simply not their m.o. So I don't know why you'd feverishly check to see what the early returns are on the identity of the school shooter here.
   908. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5625140)
Also: Muslim terrorists don't shoot up schools in the first place. That's simply not their m.o. So I don't know why you'd feverishly check to see what the early returns are on the identity of the school shooter here.


True, mass shootings, school or otherwise, seem more of a white guy thing.
   909. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5625141)
If only you had even faux concern for the victims here, but you can't even muster that in your rush to fetishize Muslims for not committing mass murder.


He's progressed from caring first and foremost about Muslims' "feelings" when Muslims mass murder people to caring first and foremost about Muslims' "feelings" even when Muslims aren't remotely involved. Kudos!!!
   910. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5625142)
I have to admit, I didn't think there was anything remarkable or provocative about my observation in #876. I still don't.

That the post inadvertently ensnared two Trump suckerfish in its unintended netting is a delightful bonus.

A case in point:
S^B^B, #903:
It's almost as if I didn't type "isn't a shrewd move" (#876).

And then it's almost as if you didn't add to it, "because it wouldn't shut down the investigation." Go figure.
Go figure what? That you require handholding through the absolutely friggin' obvious? That once committed to a misstep, you never, ever go backwards? These things have long since been figured.
   911. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:10 PM (#5625145)
The pajama wearing cocoa drinking cartoon watching Omega Dancing Monkey just doesn't get it. He can't recognize sarcasm when those smarter than he is (everyone) employ it.
   912. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5625146)
That the post inadvertently ensnared two Trump suckerfish in its unintended netting is a delightful bonus.


If you and zonk keep telling each other this, maybe it will become true. Actually, hey -- if you want to think it's true, go right ahead. Pursuit of happiness and all.

Go figure what?


Go figure the thing you can't figure. What else?
   913. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5625147)
No one sane could believe that firing the FBI director would shut down any investigation.

The notion is utterly preposterous.
Everyone here agrees with you, Ray. Every single person. And to make, you know, the point:
During a meeting later that month with Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, and the then ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak, Trump said firing Comey relieved “great pressure because of Russia.”
Posters here don't think firing Comey would shut down anything. Trump did.

And in case anyone still can't connect the dots, if Trump *intended* to shut it down, *knowing* it was *not* a hoax, that could meet the standard of obstruction, even though it was a "preposterous notion" and doomed to fail.

Personally, I don't have enough information to draw any conclusions, other than some people are being remarkably obtuse. Every time the argument is made that "Firing Comey to Stop the Investigation is Silly", remember this:
“I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job,” Mr. Trump said, according to the document, which was read to The New York Times by an American official. “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”

Mr. Trump added, “I’m not under investigation.”

The conversation, during a May 10 meeting — the day after he fired Mr. Comey — reinforces the notion that the president dismissed him primarily because of the bureau’s investigation into possible collusion between Mr. Trump’s campaign and Russian operatives. Mr. Trump said as much in one televised interview, but the White House has offered changing justifications for the firing.
   914. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5625148)
meh.
   915. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:15 PM (#5625149)
And in case anyone still can't connect the dots, if Trump *intended* to shut it down, *knowing* it was *not* a hoax, that could meet the standard of obstruction, even though it was preposterous notion and doomed to fail.


No, there has to be actual impact on the investigation. You've mischaracterized the badthink, but the badthink is irrelevant without actual impact.

   916. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5625150)
That the post inadvertently ensnared two Trump suckerfish in its unintended netting is a delightful bonus.


Heh - delightful indeed... though, I need to caution you that successfully dipping a net into a pet store aquarium isn't going to get you on Bass Masters.
   917. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5625151)
Your faux cluelessness is so utterly predictable. As if you don't understand how Trump would've used a Muslim shooter to drum up hatred against Muslims.

If only you had even faux concern for the victims here, but you can't even muster that in your rush to fetishize Muslims for not committing mass murder.


Everyone other than perhaps a few lunatics will have concern for the victims. As if I don't have a similar concern, or as if I have to prove that to you.

Also: Muslim terrorists don't shoot up schools in the first place. That's simply not their m.o. So I don't know why you'd feverishly check to see what the early returns are on the identity of the school shooter here.

Whether or not shooting up schools is the terrorists' m.o., the fact remains that any terrorist action by a Muslim is used by nativist scum like Trump to drum up hatred of them, whereas no such attempts are made against red haired ROTC students if one of their group is the perpetrator. There are absolutely no personal consequences for you or me that will follow from today's shooting, but if the shooter had been a Muslim there would've been a lot of political collateral damage to Muslims everywhere. You know this, but you simply don't give a ####.

   918. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5625152)
And in case anyone still can't connect the dots, if Trump *intended* to shut it down, *knowing* it was *not* a hoax, that could meet the standard of obstruction, even though it was preposterous notion and doomed to fail.

No, there has to be actual impact on the investigation.
Really?

So if I'm ordered to turn in my phone so they cops can get the records, and I throw my phone in the lake, but then the cops get the records from the phone company, I didn't do anything wrong?

Can I get a second opinion on that?
   919. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:20 PM (#5625153)
Whether or not shooting up schools is the terrorists' m.o., the fact remains that any terrorist action by a Muslim is used by nativist scum like Trump to drum up hatred of them, whereas no such attempts are made against red haired ROTC students if one of their group is the perpetrator. There are absolutely no personal consequences for you or me that will follow from today's shooting, but if the shooter had been a Muslim there would've been a lot of political collateral damage to Muslims everywhere. You know this, but you simply don't give a ####.


You've been on a roll lately. Recognizing the "othering" of non-white males throughout US history is probably the most fundamental realization a person can make regarding privilege. Doesn't mean I have to ask permission to attend the Black Panther premier this weekend, but you know -- it goes a long way.

So if I'm ordered to turn in my phone so they cops can get the records, and I throw my phone in the lake, but then the cops get the records from the phone company, I didn't do anything wrong?


Damn police outsmarted 20 year old me when they booked me on refusing to blow a breathalyzer when prompted at a house party. "The Man" has it all figured out against us little guys.
   920. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5625154)
Really?


Yes.
   921. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5625155)
Whether or not shooting up schools is the terrorists' m.o., the fact remains that any terrorist action by a Muslim is used by nativist scum like Trump to drum up hatred of them, whereas no such attempts are made against red haired ROTC students if one of their group is the perpetrator. There are absolutely no personal consequences for you or me that will follow from today's shooting, but if the shooter had been a Muslim there would've been a lot of political collateral damage to Muslims everywhere. You know this, but you simply don't give a ####.


Wherein the fact that Andy cares more about uninvolved Muslims than the actual victims -- teenagers at school -- is proven again.

There are absolutely no personal consequences for you or me that will follow from today's shooting, but if the shooter had been a Muslim there would've been a lot of political collateral damage to Muslims everywhere.


And there would have been absolutely no "personal consequence" to you that would have followed from the impacts on Muslims you're imagining. And if you're saying, which it appears you are, that you feel more of a personal connection to non-dead Muslims than you do to dead teenage non-Muslims ... well, that's quite telling indeed.

Modern liberalism? What modern liberalism?
   922. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5625157)
So if I'm ordered to turn in my phone so they cops can get the records, and I throw my phone in the lake, but then the cops get the records from the phone company, I didn't do anything wrong?

Yes.
But if they *can't* get the records from the phone company, *then* I magically become guilty of obstruction? Is that how it works?
   923. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5625159)
If anyone thinks the ethnicity or the religion of a terrorist isn't routinely used to smear an entire group, we'll see what the reaction is to what we now know about the Florida shooter:
The shooter, a former student identified by law enforcement sources as Nicolas de Jesus Cruz, managed to make it off campus. He was cornered and taken into custody in a townhouse at Pelican Pointe at Wyndham Lakes in Coral Springs....

“It’s a day that you pray every day when you get up that you will never have to see. It is in front of us. I ask the community for prayers and their support for the children and their families,” Runcie, appearing at a media staging area near the school, told WSVN Channel 7. “We received no warning... Potentially there could have been signs out there. But we didn’t have any warning or phone calls or threats that were made.”

A teacher at the school, however, told the Miami Herald that Cruz, 19, had been identified as a potential threat to fellow students in the past. Gard says he believes the school administration had sent out an email warning teachers that the student had made threats against other in the past and that he should not be allowed on the campus with a backpack. Another student interviewed on the scene by Channel 7 said the student had guns at home.

“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,” said math teacher Jim Gard, who said the former student suspected in the shootings had been in his class last year. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.”...

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I only hope that the shooter is a U.S. citizen.



   924. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5625160)
It's like watching a creature without opposable thumbs try to tie a knot.

They can grasp the separate threads - the "it takes a special idiot to think firing the FBI Director to stop an investigation into yourself is stupid".... and separately, independently - they can even occasionally grasp the "Trump has some special idiot" qualities. But tie them together?

That's UNPOSSIBLE!
   925. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5625161)
Is that how it works?


No. The fact that they had to go to the phone company impeded and impacted the investigation. It's an impact and obstruction whether or not they can get the records.



   926. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5625162)
There are absolutely no personal consequences for you or me that will follow from today's shooting, but if the shooter had been a Muslim there would've been a lot of political collateral damage to Muslims everywhere. You know this, but you simply don't give a ####.


I know you're ecstatic that the denominator of terror attacks has increased without the numerator involving a Muslim, but really, no increase in the denominator will erase the terror attacks committed by Muslim terrorists.
   927. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5625163)
This is the shooter, get ready for the "White Hispanic" debate!

   928. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5625164)
You've been on a roll lately. Recognizing the "othering" of non-white males throughout US history is probably the most fundamental realization a person can make regarding privilege. Doesn't mean I have to ask permission to attend the Black Panther premier this weekend, but you know -- it goes a long way.


To the extent I can parse this it's virtue signaling at its finest.
   929. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5625165)
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I only hope that the shooter is a U.S. citizen.


That's the kind of hope typically harbored by extremists -- so no great surprise.

   930. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5625166)
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I only hope that the shooter is a U.S. citizen.


Congratulations. You've managed to outdo yourself even on this page.
   931. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5625169)
Doesn't mean I have to ask permission to attend the Black Panther premier this weekend, but you know -- it goes a long way.


I quite enjoyed going to Do The Right Thing without "asking permission." Not exactly sure why I would have done such a thing, but then again I'm not a modern liberal.
   932. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5625170)
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I only hope that the shooter is a U.S. citizen.

Congratulations. You've managed to outdo yourself even on this page.


Coming from someone with your Trumpian baggage on this subject, I'll take that as a compliment.
   933. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5625171)
there has to be actual impact on the investigation.
Hmm. What does the "endeavors" part mean, here (from the Cornell Law site)?
"whoever . . . . corruptly or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication, influences, obstructs, or impedes, or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede, the due administration of justice, shall be (guilty of an offense)."
I don't see anything about "impact" in the statute. Could you please cite a source or precedent for your interpretation?
   934. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5625172)
Congratulations. You've managed to outdo yourself even on this page.


And he wonders why he's called a modern liberal.
   935. BrianBrianson Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5625173)
This is the shooter, get ready for the "White Hispanic" debate!


If you've blocked SBB, that debate doesn't appear.
   936. BurlyBuehrle Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5625176)
No. The fact that they had to go to the phone company impeded and impacted the investigation. It's an impact and obstruction whether or not they can get the records.


Even using your ridiculous standard...if the FBI is performing an investigation, and the director of the FBI is suddenly fired, that would unquestionably "impact" the investigation. It would unquestionably "impede" (even if in only a small way) the investigation.

Your position is that shaking up the leadership of an organization doesn't impact that organization's operations. Really? If the Patriots fired Belicheck tomorrow, that wouldn't impact their operations? If Manfred was ousted from his position tomorrow, that wouldn't impact MLB's operations?

The level of willful blindness to reality required to accept your positions on some things is embarrassing.
   937. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5625177)
Hmm. What does the "endeavors" part mean, here (from the Cornell Law site)?


I knew better than to respond to your stalking, but the statute you cited concerns judicial proceedings.

Think what you want to think, I really don't care. Someone seriously wrote in the Times that the Nunes memo obstructed justice, and I know better than to get into arguments with such loons. My failure.
   938. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5625178)
Even using your ridiculous standard...if the FBI is performing an investigation, and the director of the FBI is suddenly fired, that would unquestionably "impact" the investigation. It would unquestionably "impede" (even if in only a small way) the investigation.


No, it wouldn't. Not a single investigative step would be impacted or necessitated or slowed, no evidence would disappear, etc.

Moreover, Trump is the ultimate consumer of the output of a counterintelligence investigation -- which RUSSIA! RUSSIA! primarily is -- and therefore can't obstruct that either.

And with this comment, the circle jerk will have to commence without my input. Nothing I can do or say will ever be able to obstruct or impede that.
   939. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5625179)
is is the shooter, get ready for the "White Hispanic" debate!


Worst excuse for red hair I've ever seen.
   940. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5625180)
Shooter's IG has a pic of him in a MAGA hat. Classy.
   941. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5625181)
the statute you cited concerns judicial proceedings.
You're absolutely right, thank you. Here's the more pertinent statute:
Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States
This one doesn't have "impact" either. It seems to me, as a layman, that Trump, by his own admission, endeavored to impede an FBI proceeding. To wit, “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.” Mr. Trump added, “I’m not under investigation.”

I'm perfectly willing to take any citation or source you have under advisement.
   942. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5625182)
Coming from someone with your Trumpian baggage on this subject, I'll take that as a compliment.


The critical thing here isn't the dead teenagers, it's that no one have any bad thoughts about The Noble Illegal Immigrant.

Priorities, people -- priorities!!
   943. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5625183)
Shooter's IG has a pic of him in a MAGA hat. Classy.

Don't find that by googling. Got a credible link to the picture?
   944. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5625184)
My understanding of obstruction is that it doesn't matter whether the scheme has even the slightest chance of success, only that the perpetrator believed it would.

If I pay you commit perjury for the defense at my trial, I'm still guilty of obstruction even if you don't do as you were paid. I'm also still guilty if you keep asking me to repeat myself and thrust your shirt collar towards while acting all nervous and sweaty.

Trump's problem - and I think it's ultimately at the heart of why the Trumpkins get so pissy on the matter - is that he's been bragging all over town that it's precisely why he did it. He told everyone from the media to the Russians that's why he did it.

   945. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5625185)
Don't find that by googling. Got a credible link to the picture?


Not just a picture, but his profile photo, yikes.

a very fine person I'm sure.
   946. BurlyBuehrle Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5625187)
At least you repeat the same talking points consistently, no matter how many times they've been shown to be wrong. Trump can't obstruct an FBI investigation because Trump is the de facto head of the Executive Branch.

Yes, it makes perfect logical sense that a potential target of an investigation is immunized for any potential liability related to obstructing that investigation.

"The obstruction need not be successful; the jury may convict one who 'endeavors' to obstruct...." United States v. Vixie (9th Cir. 1976) 532 F.2d 1277, 1278.

If you're saying you'll contribute no further input, I'm sure there are those among us who would cheer. But you're a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian, so you won't go away. You need the circle jerk. You want the circle jerk.

EDIT: Half coke to 944, since I provided a citation.
   947. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5625188)
Infrastructure week hump day!

President Trump had a request for his lawyer: Call a senior Justice Department official and get him to persuade the FBI director to announce that Trump was not personally under investigation in the probe of Russian interference in the 2016 election.

White House counsel Donald McGahn made the call in April to acting deputy attorney general Dana Boente but failed to convince him that FBI Director James B. Comey should make the statement, according to several people familiar with the episode. The refusal further frustrated a president who had already twice appealed directly to Comey, who told him he should have McGahn call instead.

* * *

“It’s a complicated relationship,” said one person close to McGahn, referring to Trump and his counsel. “I don’t think Trump dislikes him. . . . But the big problem between them is that Trump has always seen lawyers as facilitators for him. He doesn’t see lawyers as people who say no to him.” The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the Russia investigation.

* * *

But Cobb, who has said he is eager to show the White House is cooperating, said all aides would answer questions freely. McGahn spent two days with the special counsel’s office in December and later told associates he was “thrown to the wolves,” according to people who have spoken to him. Seven other lawyers also spoke to Mueller.

McGahn has told others that Cobb is not a careful lawyer and is not carefully reviewing documents or preparing people to testify. In private conversations, McGahn has questioned whether Cobb leaked stories to the news media that could imperil McGahn’s standing in the White House. Cobb declined to comment

* * *

McGahn, particularly in the early months of the administration, cautioned Trump about contacting Justice Department officials and even told associates he was concerned Trump was doing so without his knowledge. The two men would have “spectacular” fights, according to a person who witnessed some of them.

* * *

“Good lawyers try not to abandon their clients,” the person close to McGahn said. “And the client isn’t Trump; it’s the presidency.”


Could be worth watching.
   948. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5625189)
My understanding of obstruction is that it doesn't matter whether the scheme has even the slightest chance of success, only that the perpetrator believed it would.


No. If I'm under investigation and punch a wall believing it will end the investigation, I haven't obstructed justice.
   949. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5625190)
No, there has to be actual impact on the investigation. You've mischaracterized the badthink, but the badthink is irrelevant without actual impact.
This is why I call him a fake lawyer and a troll. He doesn't say, "I think" or "Maybe" or anything like that. He bluffs his way through these things, making confident pronouncements as though they were statements of fact, when they are completely and utterly wrong. Real lawyers don't always get the law right, of course. But they don't, on a daily basis, make blatantly wrong assertions about very simple issues. But SBB does.

That's the fake lawyering part. The trolling part comes from the fact that the entire statement is an attempt to hijack the discussion. Let's assume that SBB miraculously managed to be correct; would that mean that Trump hadn't done something wrong? No; it would mean that rather than being guilty of obstruction of justice, he would "only" be guilty of attempted obstruction of justice. Which is just as illegal and just as impeachable. So it would make no difference whatsoever.
   950. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5625191)
Yes, it makes perfect logical sense that a potential target of an investigation is immunized for any potential liability related to obstructing that investigation.


He's not "immunized." There are a number of ways he could corruptly obstruct an investigation. If he paid a witness, or conspired to do so, for example.

Nor is the proposition that firing Comey relieved Trump of potential liability factually accurate. It didn't. It didn't impede the investigation in the least. FBI directors don't do day-to-day investigative activities.
   951. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5625192)
Andy: A tragedy/massacre has happened and your first thought is to hope that certain groups haven't committed it.

That seems rather depraved to me.

It is indeed useful to look at who committed a crime, how, and why in order to try to prevent future crimes from being committed. But cheering for certain groups to have NOT committed a crime seems bizarre to me.

Why would you have to cheer for this NOT being an act of Muslim terrorism unless you felt it was likely to have been an act of Muslim terrorism? Did you root for it not being, say, an act of Asian terrorism?
   952. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5625193)
#911:
He can't recognize sarcasm when those smarter than he is (everyone) employ it.


My original post wasn't even sarcastic.

I didn't have the slightest inkling that anybody reading it would require some kind of trigger warning. Everything since has been pure cringe comedy.


#946:
You won't go away. You need the circle jerk. You want the circle jerk.


Without him, it would just be a circle.
   953. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:13 PM (#5625195)
Shooter's IG has a pic of him in a MAGA hat. Classy.

Don't find that by googling. Got a credible link to the picture?


If it's true you'd better wash the cum off your hands before clicking on the picture. Keyboard damage and all of that.
   954. Greg K Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5625196)

Why would you have to cheer for this NOT being an act of Muslim terrorism unless you felt it was likely to have been an act of Muslim terrorism? Did you root for it not being, say, an act of Asian terrorism?

He probably thinks Asians have been well behaved enough lately that they'll get a pass from the general public. Pearl Harbor was a while ago so they get a freebie.

Though to be super pedantic, I imagine a large number of Muslim terrorists are Asian.

EDIT: Andy is being a bit odd here. I mean, I don't think he's wrong about how Trump would play up an attack like this if it was perpetrated by a Muslim. But it doesn't seem necessary to fixate on that.
   955. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5625198)
If I'm under investigation and punch a wall believing it will end the investigation, I haven't obstructed justice.
No, you haven't, because there's no nexus. From Cornell Law, again:
A person obstructs justice when they have a specific intent to obstruct or interfere with a judicial proceeding. For a person to be convicted of obstructing justice, they must not only have the specific intent to obstruct the proceeding, but the person must know (1) that a proceeding was actually pending at the time; and (2) there must be a nexus between the defendant’s endeavor to obstruct justice and the proceeding, and the defendant must have knowledge of this nexus.
Trump, however, was (1) clearly aware that a proceeding was pending, and (2) clearly felt his action would do something.

It doesn't say anywhere about whether he succeeds or whether his train of thought was preposterous. He had the specific intent.
   956. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5625199)
"Endeavoring" doesn't incorporate insane beliefs about results. And in 1505, the word doesn't stand alone; it's modified by the phrase "corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication ... endeavors." It means things like attempting to kill a witness. So actual impact was a bit of an overbid, but Trump's conduct still doesn't fit.
   957. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5625200)

And he wonders why he's called a modern liberal


But nobody wonders why you’re called Fake Lawyer.
   958. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5625201)
Andy: A tragedy/massacre has happened and your first thought is to hope that certain groups haven't committed it.

That seems rather depraved to me.


Not just a massacre -- a massacre of teenagers. And yet his first, and really only thoughts, run toward Muslims and The Noble Illegal Immigrant.

It's quite depraved indeed.
   959. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5625202)
Not just a picture, but his profile photo, yikes.


It's been taken down:

Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!
   960. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5625203)
by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication
"Say I'm not under investigation or you're fired" is a threat. Subsequently, "You're fired" may not be physical force, but it's force.

Again, any precedent you're citing here to back up your opinion would be welcomed.
   961. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5625204)
No. If I'm under investigation and punch a wall believing it will end the investigation, I haven't obstructed justice.


If you consulted with a quack psychologist and asked "What is the best way to pretend I'm crazy so that I can be declared unfit to stand trial" you have.
   962. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5625206)
This is why I call him a fake lawyer and a troll. He doesn't say, "I think" or "Maybe" or anything like that. He bluffs his way through these things, making confident pronouncements as though they were statements of fact, when they are completely and utterly wrong. Real lawyers don't always get the law right, of course. But they don't, on a daily basis, make blatantly wrong assertions about very simple issues. But SBB does.

That's the fake lawyering part. The trolling part comes from the fact that the entire statement is an attempt to hijack the discussion. Let's assume that SBB miraculously managed to be correct; would that mean that Trump hadn't done something wrong? No; it would mean that rather than being guilty of obstruction of justice, he would "only" be guilty of attempted obstruction of justice. Which is just as illegal and just as impeachable. So it would make no difference whatsoever.


Sure, but what you're missing -- actually what you're misleading your TDScult followers in not saying -- is that in order to convict on obstruction the jury has to believe that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And thus if your theory of the case is, "Trump believed that if he bribed the NFL referees to make sure the Eagles won the Super Bowl all investigations into Russia would be stopped," there's no chance in hell the jury would convict. The judge would probably direct the verdict anyway.

So if it would be completely insane for anyone to believe that firing Comey would stop even the FBI investigation let alone all of the other government investigations that were and are proceeding -- and it is indeed completely insane to believe that -- then it will be difficult to get a conviction on that score.

And no amount of jumping up and down to the jury and screaming, "B-b-b-but... you don't understand! Trump DID believe that! Because Trump is INSANE!!!! No, TRUMP is the insane one!!!" would secure a conviction. Although the judge might have you committed to Bellevue.

Thus, you're right that success is not an element of the crime but again you're misleading your lemmings on this board who don't know any better and you know they don't know any better: You're pretending with your "attempted" obstruction that bribing a witness or destroying documents is just the same practically as doing an act that wouldn't stop any investigations. That's not the case. Also because Trump didn't appoint Trump Jr to head the FBI; Andrew McCabe stepped in for Comey as acting director. And Chris Wray assumed the post after that. And indeed no investigations were stopped.
   963. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5625207)
And you have to love Andy's worry about "conflating" Muslims when he's clearly sitting there drooling over the possibility that the guy was wearing a MAGA hat so he can conflate all "Trump supporters."

Pure phony.
   964. Greg K Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5625209)
So if it would be completely insane for anyone to believe that firing Comey would stop even the FBI investigation let alone all of the other investigations that were and are proceeding -- and it is indeed completely insane to believe that -- then it will be difficult to get a conviction on that score.

I don't know. Maybe it would be insane for someone with any knowledge of the law or government to believe that. But to someone who's knowledge of those things comes from network television dramas (ie. the majority of people), it might have a certain logic.
   965. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5625210)
Not just a picture, but his profile photo, yikes.

It's been taken down:


DEEP STATE FALSE FLAG
   966. Greg K Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5625212)
A Babylon Berlin* episode I watched the other day had a scene where a representative from the President marched into the police commissioner's office and said "shut down the investigation or you're fired!" I think it's a fairly stock scenario for us of the legally illiterate masses.


*Just finished the first season, super fun!
   967. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5625213)
So if it would be completely insane for anyone to believe that firing Comey would stop even the FBI investigation let alone all of the other investigations that were and are proceeding -- and it is indeed completely insane to believe that -- then it will be difficult to get a conviction on that score.

But to someone who's knowledge of those things comes from network television dramas (ie. the majority of people), it might have a certain logic.



It might also have that logic for someone who explicitly said it was his motive to the Russian ambassador, and who then said so again on American television. I mean, we don't want to jump to any rash conclusions here, but it might.
   968. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5625215)
Trump has shown himself to be impulsive and simplistic. It's fairly plausible to imagine a situation where:

1) Trump tells Comey to end the investigation, or else.
2) Comey does nothing (other than document the conversation)
3) Trump figures it's time for "or else" and fires Comey.
4) Trump says out loud "the pressure's off! Comey is gone!"
5) Trump makes two assumptions:
a) His effort was successful
b) If he needs to, he can repeat the process as necessary

Come to think of it, the only imagining needed is #5. We know #1-#4 happened.
   969. BurlyBuehrle Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:38 PM (#5625216)
"Endeavoring" doesn't incorporate insane beliefs about results. And in 1505, the word doesn't stand alone; it's modified by the phrase "corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication ... endeavors." It means things like attempting to kill a witness. So actual impact was a bit of an overbid, but Trump's conduct still doesn't fit.


Attempting to kill a witness is an extreme example, but one need not be so extreme to fit within the definition of corruptly .... endeavors. Encouraging or influencing someone to impede the progress of an investigation qualifies as "corruptly endeavoring" within the meaning of section 1505. E.g., United States v. Kelley (D.C. Cir. 1994) 36 F.3d 1118, 1127.

Here, as just one example, we know that Trump encouraged Comey to "let Flynn go" while there was a pending congressional investigation of Russian election interference. (Coincidentally, I believe that conversation took place exactly one year ago today, on 2/14/2017.) Further, if Flynn was under grand jury investigation at the time (I believe he was, but I'm not entirely certain), Trump's actions might also have violated section 1503.

Under any definition of "encourage" or "influence" or "endeavor," the sitting President making such a request of the head of the FBI qualifies.

But please, give us more unsupported nonsense about witness killing.
   970. Lassus Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5625217)
My optimism was misplaced, sadly. 17 dead so far.
   971. BurlyBuehrle Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5625218)

So if it would be completely insane for anyone to believe that firing Comey would stop even the FBI investigation let alone all of the other government investigations that were and are proceeding -- and it is indeed completely insane to believe that -- then it will be difficult to get a conviction on that score.


If 79 investigations are proceeding, but one endeavors to impede 1 of the 79 while ignoring the other 78, one would still be guilty of obstructing that one investigation. So your red herring of "let alone all of the other government investigations" is just that: a red herring.

Your post contains another sideshow/red herring designed to distract. You keep using the word "stopped" in relation to investigations, as if that's the standard. And you're accusing someone else of misleading. That's rich. Stopping an investigation is utterly irrelevant.

Corruptly...endeavoring to impede the progress of an investigation. Full stop. That's the standard. Did you corruptly try to impede or influence the investigation? Stopping the investigation, believing that an investigation would be stopped, all total sideshows.
   972. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5625219)
"Endeavoring" doesn't incorporate insane beliefs about results.
That's not entirely wrong, but it's entirely inapplicable. If I come up with the belief that binge watching all episodes of Hawaii Five-0 (old and new) will please god so much that he'll smite the people investigating me, that would not be obstruction. But we're not talking about anything insane; we're talking about something (at most) stupid. But of course it's not that stupid; firing the head of a project is a good way to derail that project.
   973. Greg K Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5625220)


It might also have that logic for someone who explicitly said it was his motive to the Russian ambassador, and who then said so again on American television.

But was it network television?
   974. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5625221)
I think the "so what" is that nations don't exist in a vacuum. Syria being a dumpster fire isn't just a problem for the people living in Syria.

I think what we're seeing now is the ability of a disaster like Syria to spread violence and conflict in all directions. Accommodating refugees addresses the symptom (and in doing so may very well be the humanitarian thing to do). But the underlying cause still persists.


Reaching back a page ...

I sort of agree, but the disconnect is what the "so what" applies to. It is the worst case, suggesting that even if (a big if) the brain drain theory is correct that fact should not necessarily stop emigration of skilled professionals out of their home country into a "more desirable" nation (like the US).

But remember, we are not dealing with top end talent deciding to get their education in the US and never come home. We - in relation to Syria - talking about refugees.

And again the brain drain doesn't seem to have any actual empirical impact where top end talent is considered I really, really, really doubt that helping refugees who desperately want to leave go somewhere else harms the situation in Syria.

In fact removing the refugees from the equation helps simplify the situation in Syria. I agree it doesn't solve the Syria dumpster fire, but it helps some people and as I said it simplifies the situation which sets up some possible additional mitigation strategies.

However, I maintain there is nothing the US can do to meaningfully solve the base underlying problem. Mitigation and helping some people is about as good as it is going to get IMO.
   975. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5625222)
My optimism was misplaced, sadly. 17 dead so far.


I thought it was going to be bad when I read the reports of just how many cops were responding and how long the shooter had been "barricaded" inside. Seems like this kid had quite the arsenal and obviously the "skill" needed to use it.

Just another really shitty news day.
   976. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5625223)
But of course it's not that stupid; firing the head of a project is a good way to derail that project.


Maybe, but firing the FBI director is an insane way to try to "derail" a particular FBI investigation.

And none of these even apply to a counterintelligence investigation, wherein the firing person is the person for whom the investigation is being done. This this was a counterintelligence investigation in primary purpose.
   977. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5625224)
People have called Richard Nixon a lot of things, but not delusional. And he seemed to think that firing the special prosecutor investigating him would shut down the investigation of him.
   978. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5625225)
Your post contains another sideshow/red herring designed to distract.
Yes, well, that is a pattern, isn't it. There's been probably a 50 post sidebar because the declarative statement "the shooter is not a Muslim" was immediately and dramatically characterized as "cheerleading" terrorism.
   979. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5625226)
If anyone knows about cum on his hands it's our pajama wearing hot cocoa drinking cartoon watching Omega Dancing Monkey.
   980. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5625227)
And none of these even apply to a counterintelligence investigation, wherein the firing person is the person for whom the investigation is being done. And this was a counterintelligence investigation in primary purpose.


Ha!

Because that's the distinction and a level of understanding Trump has demonstrated so, so many times over.
   981. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5625228)
It's because Obama wanted to score political points that he faced the nation after Sandy Hook. Trump is just doing the right thing and totally is not a coward.

I remember being at the White House on Dec. 14, 2012, the day of Sandy Hook. Obama went into the briefing room that afternoon to address the American people. A different WH approach today. Trump hasn’t spoken on camera, and his staff just called a lid.
   982. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5625229)
because the declarative statement "the shooter is not a Muslim" was immediately and dramatically characterized as "cheerleading" terrorism.


It was actually correctly characterized as having depraved priorities.


   983. Greg K Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5625230)
But remember, we are not dealing with top end talent deciding to get their education in the US and never come home. We - in relation to Syria - talking about refugees.

It might be different in the US, but I know in Europe the Syrian refugees they get do actually tend to be on the high end side of education. It's generally the middle class ones who had some ability to amass resources for smugglers and various other necessities to travel long distances. Those with nothing remain in the camps in Jordan and Lebanon.

As I say, I'm less familiar with the US asylum system. Are they mostly receiving refugees from those refugee camps nearest Syria?
   984. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5625231)
It might be different in the US, but I know in Europe ...


I assume those with power (money, education, and such all count as power) mange to do better than those without. However, we were talking about "What would one do ...", not what is actually taking place. Though I must admit, any refugee scheme is going to be applied unequally, because reality.
   985. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5625232)
So if it would be completely insane for anyone to believe that firing Comey would stop even the FBI investigation let alone all of the other government investigations that were and are proceeding -- and it is indeed completely insane to believe that -- then it will be difficult to get a conviction on that score.

If 79 investigations are proceeding, but one endeavors to impede 1 of the 79 while ignoring the other 78, one would still be guilty of obstructing that one investigation. So your red herring of "let alone all of the other government investigations" is just that: a red herring.


You folks need to keep your conspiracy theories straight. The theory proffered has been that by firing Comey Trump planned to stop "the Russia investigation." The theory doesn't make sense on its own terms, because there is no "the" Russia investigation, but several.

Your post contains another sideshow/red herring designed to distract. You keep using the word "stopped" in relation to investigations, as if that's the standard. And you're accusing someone else of misleading. That's rich. Stopping an investigation is utterly irrelevant.


Folks here should get on the same page with their conspiracy theories. "Stopping" "the" "Russia" "investigation" has been exactly what the conspiracy theory has been.

But even so, there is no red herring; while trying to impede even one investigation could well be obstruction as you note, in this case since it makes no sense that Trump would think he could get anywhere by impeding one of the several investigations -- let alone that firing Comey would accomplish the same -- it makes it harder to believe BARD that that's what Trump's intent was in firing Comey.

Corruptly...endeavoring to impede the progress of an investigation. Full stop. That's the standard. Did you corruptly try to impede or influence the investigation? Stopping the investigation, believing that an investigation would be stopped, all total sideshows.


No sane person would think that firing Comey would impede even one investigation and indeed firing Comey did not impede even one investigation. The theory is nutty.
   986. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5625234)
Trump hasn’t spoken on camera, and his staff just called a lid.


Well, unfortunately these things have become commonplace since Sandy Hook.
   987. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5625237)
"Endeavoring" doesn't incorporate insane beliefs about results.

That's not entirely wrong, but it's entirely inapplicable. If I come up with the belief that binge watching all episodes of Hawaii Five-0 (old and new) will please god so much that he'll smite the people investigating me, that would not be obstruction. But we're not talking about anything insane; we're talking about something (at most) stupid. But of course it's not that stupid; firing the head of a project is a good way to derail that project.


Yes, I can see Andrew McCabe now: "Okay, rank and file, Comey has been fired. And I am now your leader! Thus all projects are now being re-evaluated -- particularly the investigations into Russian interference in our election. And since Trump may have fired Comey *specifically to impede* the Russia investigations, that's even MORE reason that we might want to think about stopping the Russia investigation!" Yup, clearly that's what Trump believed would happen.

You folks have just completely lost it.
   988. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5625238)
Yup, clearly that's what Trump believed would happen.


Finally, I think he's close to getting it.
   989. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5625239)
I’m sure at least one or two of the parents of the dead voted for Trump, so ya know, collateral damage and such...
   990. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5625240)
People have called Richard Nixon a lot of things, but not delusional. And he seemed to think that firing the special prosecutor investigating him would shut down the investigation of him.


You're equating a special prosecutor with the head of the FBI?
   991. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5625243)
The Nunes memo was obstruction of justice. That's been in the NYT op-ed section twice now.

We're not exactly dealing with the well-adjusted here.
   992. BDC Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5625244)
The theory proffered has been that by firing Comey Trump planned to stop "the Russia investigation."

Proffered, IIRC, by Donald Trump himself.
   993. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5625245)
My optimism was misplaced, sadly. 17 dead so far.


But at least the shooter wasn't Muslim, or an illegal immigrant. Woo, we really dodged a bullet there.

I feel like you're not seeing the bright side of this tragedy, Lassus.
   994. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5625246)
Oh my: VF is reporting that none other than Sean Hannity is advising Trump on his new Chief of Staff after he ####-cans Kelly. This is the same guy that was caught talking to who he thought was Julian Assange just the other week. Only the best people.
   995. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5625247)
Ray's explanation might make a good line of defense when Donald Trump is obliged to testify about saying “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off” by firing “a real nutjob.”

And then, one day later, saying that he “decided to just do it” while telling himself that “this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story.”

Trump can just explain to Mueller, “What I said doesn't make sense on its own terms, because I'm nutty.” End of case.
   996. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5625248)
Just to be clear - believing nutty things like exercise makes you die quicker or never get flu vaccines are not things people have made up about Trump, right?

That the elimination of asbestos was a conspiracy undertaken at behest of the mob? This he also believes?
   997. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5625249)
I’m sure at least one or two of the parents of the dead voted for Trump, so ya know, collateral damage and such...


More bright side!

Yes, the oft-used adjectives "unhinged," "deranged," and "insane" are quite misplaced. Yep. Totally.

   998. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5625250)
Would some please metaphorically slap Little Lord Fauntleray for being sarcastic about a post that he failed to recognize as sarcasm? Are you gonna let the dimwit go unchallenged?
   999. . Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5625251)
Ray's explanation might make a good line of defense when Donald Trump is obliged to testify about saying “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off” because he fired “a real nutjob.”


Not that it matters because the underlying theory it nuts, but there's no reason to believe he was even talking about the investigation there. "Pressure" comes from many other sources, and firing a chronic leaker and chronic liar might relieve some of that pressure. The "nutjob" line confirms it.
   1000. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5625252)
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