Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, March 12, 2018

OTP 12 March 2018: Trevor Bauer thinks Major League Baseball trying to silence him on Twitter

Last February, Bauer made waves on Twitter when he argued over politics with his followers. He tweeted that almost all of the Indians supported Donald Trump and told another user they were “welcome to quit life.”

Bauer has been much calmer as of late and that could be because MLB stepped in. The 27-year-old hasn’t tweeted that much this offseason and when he does it’s been about things like the Olympics and his training.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 12, 2018 at 08:17 AM | 1718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cleveland indians, off topic, politics, twitter

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 18 pages  1 2 3 >  Last ›
   1. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 08:55 AM (#5636769)
from the old thread:

Putin: Maybe it was the Jews behind US election interference
   2. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:07 AM (#5636774)
It would be a crime for this precious gem from SBB not to make the jump to a new thread:
It is true, of course, that nothing like TDS has really been seen in the US since the LDS in the wake of the 1860 election. The similarities are uncanny. Only difference now is the geographic discontinuities amongst the deranged, which makes certain remedies impossible to get off the ground.

Uncanny! Only difference! Of course!
   3. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5636775)
Turns out their is a game shop a little over a mile away from my house. Magic certainly has changed the way comic/game shop look nowadays. When I was a kid game shops were largely comic book/RPG bookstores that occasionally might drop down a card table and host a RPG night. As I was leaving the field I started seeing the entertainment center type game shops that had a separate room for gamers to play in and one even had a LAN center where you could play DOOM or any of the other FPS against up to three other people.

Nowadays it seems all game shops have morphed into a somewhat small retail area and a large area dedicated to gamers to play. Anyway, the local shop runs tournaments everyday but I'll have to figure out how to just play some Magic for a few weeks for fun and learning before trying to do anything like that. When I first entered the store they were holding a tournament I think and I noticed everybody with blue or black backed cards. I was like is this some new game that everyone is playing? Didn't realize they have come out with sleeves for the cards. Makes sense. I often wondered what they did to protect against cheating.

I do think it will be tough for me to ever really get serious about the game and the amount of time I spend on this game is really going to depend on who I find to play this game as it appears that the style of play needed to win this game consistently is not the style I want to play.


On a sidenote is the market for old Magic cards real? Can you really and easily get the prices I see quoted online? I have a shvt ton of revised edition cards with some The Dark and The Fallen Empires and if I could even get half of what the cards list for I could probably get 1,000 bucks. But I have no idea if these prices and demand is legit.
   4. Blastin Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:13 AM (#5636776)
Trevor Bauer is a little baby, not because he's conservative, but because he says all this stuff publicly and then gets mad when people criticize him.

After he bombed in game 4 of the LDS last year, he went online and blocked people who were making fun of him. So it's for the best if he shuts up about other stuff.
   5. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5636777)
I remember when Bauer tweeted himself out of Arizona and thinking I'd have loved to get in on that discount... I don't regret that the Cubs did not.
   6. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5636780)
@drvox (trigger warning - the letters v, o, and x appear in a row in this guy's handle):

1. All right, this controversy over conservative columnists in @nytopinion is bugging me. Everyone is dancing around the central point! (The same central point everyone dances around in *numerous* contemporary controversies.) So I'ma lay it out.

2. Here's the main point: the contemporary right-wing in the US has become, in Lionel Trilling's immortal words, a bundle of "irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas." It's just a tangle of resentments & bigotries, driven by the erosion of white privilege.

3. There's always been that element, but for decades it was overlain by a class of DC conservatives who code switched, spoke the Very Serious language of ideas & policies. This is the conservatism that white moderate libs still imagine: an actual ideology, with arguments.

4. Trump's rise has shown that purported principles of conservative ideology meant virtually NOTHING to the conservative masses. Trump abandoned the Very Serious script & the RW base didn't care, at all. He voiced their anger & resentments. That's all the RW base is any more.

5. Trump has swerved this way and that on immigration, taxes, healthcare, guns ... and the base doesn't care. They follow him this way, they follow him that way. It is the resentment, the aggrieved sense of persecution, that they respond to. That's what US conservatism IS now.

6. So @nytopinion faces a dilemma. It claims to want to expose its readers to the perspectives of the conservative masses. It claims to want to connect liberals to the heartland. But there's a problem.

7. If NYT printed the *actual, real-life* sentiments of today's conservative masses, it would print a bunch of paranoid, Fox-generated fairy tales and belligerent expressions of xenophobia, misogyny, racism, and proud, anti-intellectual ignorance.

8. The people who work at NYT & the vast majority of its readers would find those sentiments ... what's the word? oh, yes ... deplorable. They would recoil. The truth of what's going on on the right today is worse than virtually anyone in the political mainstream acknowledges.

9. The NYT's commitment to "intellectual diversity" doesn't go THAT far -- not far enough to expose its readers to that reality. It is too invested in America's own Noble Savage myth, the idea that conservative Heartland Americans are more authentic & in touch w/ simple virtues.

10. So NYT needs "a voice from the right," but not a voice from the ACTUAL right (which is oriented around white resentment, not any discernible governing philosophy). They need a voice from the Conservatism of the Mind, the noble, principles-base conservatism they imagine.

11. That's what conservative columnists on mainstream opinion pages have been for years now: voices who will present conservatism as a coherent intellectual argument, what liberals desperately want it to be.

12. It is no coincidence that these guys - Gerson, Douthat, Brooks, Stephens - have little voice or influence inside actual conservatism, or that they're all anti-Trump (unlike 95+% of Republicans). They are anomalies, idiosyncrasies, not representative of anything broader.

13. And notice, even those invested in pretending that contemporary conservatism is a governing philosophy have thrown up their hands lately. Claim something for conservatism today & Trump could disavow it in a tweet tomorrow. It's become impossible to even maintain the pretense.

14. And so what do the mainstream "voices of conservatism" have left? Wan, half-ass whataboutism. "Sure Trump & the GOP are terrible but whatabout that time that one person on the left said that one bad thing?"

15. That explains why everyone on the right has suddenly fixated on Farrakhan. It explains why every conservative columnist is writing (again and again) about campus speech intolerance. It's not much, but it's *all they have left*. There's nowhere left to go, intellectually.

18. In the name of "exposing readers to diverse viewpoints," NYT is, in practice, obscuring the true nature of today's right. Virtually the entire political elite & most NYT readers are in denial about what the right has become & that denial is increasingly dangerous.

19. Forget the self-regarding onanism of Stephens types. If NYT really wants to expose its readers to the right, it should give Dinesh D'Souza, Dana Loesch, or Ben Shapiro a column. Let readers see, up close & personal, the crude tribalism & resentment that animate the RW base.
   7. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5636782)
"11th-hour blitz"... "save itself and Donald Trump from embarrassment"... "last-ditch stand"... "save their struggling candidate"... "unleashing the party's full arsenal"... "stave off a major embarrassment for the president"... "nearly every corner of the national party was involved in the final push"... "orchestrated an under-the-radar effort"... "GOP voters who’ve yet to rally behind"... "the multi-million-dollar undertaking underscored the enormous stakes"... "would be an ominous sign"... "starkly illustrating its softening support even in Trump strongholds"... "just how much capital the administration is expending on the contest"... "the president’s supporters conceded they were worried"... "would be a painful blow for Republicans"... "worried that he'd take even more blame"... "Heads I lose, tails you win"... it's gotta be Election Eve in Pennsylvania!

It'll almost be funnier to see people spinning a Republican win.
   8. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:29 AM (#5636784)
If I had to bet I'd say the moldy cardboard cutout GOP candidate wins by a few points in PA. Not that it matters much.
   9. Chokeland Bill Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5636785)
On a sidenote is the market for old Magic cards real? Can you really and easily get the prices I see quoted online? I have a shvt ton of revised edition cards with some The Dark and The Fallen Empires and if I could even get half of what the cards list for I could probably get 1,000 bucks. But I have no idea if these prices and demand is legit


Any dual lands from Revised will almost certainly sell. They are the foundation of the Legacy environment, which WotC actually supports with Grand Prix events (and there are large events run by StarCityGames as well). They are also on the Reserved list, which means they won't have their value lowered by a reprint.
   10. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5636787)
Yeah, I saw those cards at the top of the lists for hundreds and hundreds of dollars and I wondered if there is actually an active market for those cards as I think I have like 5 of them. How about the rest of them? The ones that are listed for like 5 to 10 dollars?
   11. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5636788)
And so what do the mainstream "voices of conservatism" have left? Wan, half-ass whataboutism.


Also Juan’s half-ass whataboutism. So close!

It’s the party of Homer Simpson. Stupid hysterical dimwits demanding reactionary retribution against the bears and the sanitation director.
   12. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5636789)
On a sidenote is the market for old Magic cards real? Can you really and easily get the prices I see quoted online? I have a shvt ton of revised edition cards with some The Dark and The Fallen Empires and if I could even get half of what the cards list for I could probably get 1,000 bucks. But I have no idea if these prices and demand is legit.


It's pretty much like the secondary market on old comic books. You can get something close to book value if you accurately assess the physical condition of your cards and if you're willing to deal directly with members of the public via online auction sites and the like. If you sell directly to a store or a dealer, it's going to be at a substantial discount, since they're going to need to carry the inventory on their books and set prices accordingly.

From the way you describe your collection, most of the value is going to be on specific Revised cards, like dual lands, which are worth a couple hundred bucks apiece (depending on which ones you have). There are a few individual rares in the Dark that are valuable. Nothing in Fallen Empires is worth all that much.

Not an expert, though, so take it with a grain of salt.
   13. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5636790)
PA-18 is probably a coin flip... but I must say, it's remains amusing to no end listening to Republicans trash Saccone. I mean, they sound like he's Chrstine O'Donnell reborn. Never mind that he's been the state rep for a big chunk of this district for nearly 10 years. Never mind he, like Lamb, is ex-military. PhD. All the social and fiscal con buzzie... and he's hugged the ever-loving crap out of Donald Trump. In a district Trump won by 20 points... where the Dems often don't even bother to field a candidate.

Methinks that about 8 months from now, the GOP will be trashing an awful lot of crappy candidates.
   14. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5636791)
Also, bear in mind that to get book or close to book for low-demand cards, like unexceptional commons, you might need to sit on them for a long, long time.
   15. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5636793)
Well, I probably have at least a thousand revised cards (non land) so I was thinking I would probably sell the dual lands online and possibly any other card that is supposedly worth more than $10 and then just bundle the other cards in batches and possibly sell to a retailer. Something like here is a bunch of cards that have a total retail value of $300. I'll take $100 or $150 for them. Now if a $5 card is truly worth $5 and I can unload all of those cards and higher within a week online and be done with the whole process within that week it might very well be better to sell all of those individually online even with all of the hassle if it means I net $2000 instead of $1000.

edit: I also have a starter pack from Ice Age! That's the one I'm saving for the grandkids.
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 12, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5636795)
14. And so what do the mainstream "voices of conservatism" have left? Wan, half-ass whataboutism. "Sure Trump & the GOP are terrible but whatabout that time that one person on the left said that one bad thing?"

15. That explains why everyone on the right has suddenly fixated on Farrakhan. It explains why every conservative columnist is writing (again and again) about campus speech intolerance. It's not much, but it's *all they have left*. There's nowhere left to go, intellectually.


It is rather amazing to see all those Christmas tree bulbs light up at the flip of a single switch. You'd think that Farrakhan was our president and Ali Khamenei was his Veep.

18. In the name of "exposing readers to diverse viewpoints," NYT is, in practice, obscuring the true nature of today's right. Virtually the entire political elite & most NYT readers are in denial about what the right has become & that denial is increasingly dangerous.

19. Forget the self-regarding onanism of Stephens types. If NYT really wants to expose its readers to the right, it should give Dinesh D'Souza, Dana Loesch, or Ben Shapiro a column. Let readers see, up close & personal, the crude tribalism & resentment that animate the RW base.


The simple reply to this is that the NYT already devotes several pages a day to the rantings of the HMIC.** There's very little a D'Souza or a Loesch or a Ben Shapiro could add to that.

** Head Maniac In Charge
   17. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5636802)
Something like here is a bunch of cards that have a total retail value of $300. I'll take $100 or $150 for them.


If you're selling the cards in bulk to a retailer, you probably won't get 33% of face for them. Think the kind of return relative to list price that you get on bulk baseball card commons from a '70s set.

Now if a $5 card is truly worth $5 and I can unload all of those cards and higher within a week online and be done with the whole process within that week


You should be able to get $4-5 for a $5 card, but it's very unlikely that you'll get it within a week.
   18. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5636805)
If you're selling the cards in bulk to a retailer, you probably won't get 33% of face for them. Think the kind of return relative to list price that you get on bulk baseball card commons from a '70s set.

I wasn't thinking of selling 600 50 cent cards of 100 bucks but more like here is a 100 to 150 cards that have a retail value of $300 in total I'll take $100 or something close to that. For the less than a dollar cards I was expecting something like 5 to 10 cents on the dollar for batches of them.

You should be able to get $4-5 for a $5 card, but it's very unlikely that you'll get it within a week.

Which is something I don't really want to deal with so I'm thinking of just selling those off to a retailer. Would like to be able to get at least 33 cents on the dollar for those type of cards from a retailer.

Now if only there was a market for Rage and Echelon of Fury cards as well.
   19. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 12, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5636810)
Ray forgot to tell Trump that the election was over
David, Trump has decided (inasmuch as he "decides" anything) to bypass governing completely and go directly into campaign mode for 2020.
   20. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: March 12, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5636813)
Xi becomes "president for life", Trump says "maybe we should try that here someday".


Duterte's "doing an excellent job", Trump says, and now is proposing to mimic his policy of executing drug dealers.

SBB, why do you hate democracy?
   21. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5636821)
I always assumed that Homer Simpson was a swing voter.
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5636822)
Would like to be able to get at least 33 cents on the dollar for those type of cards from a retailer.


Fair enough. That's going to depend on which cards you have and on the business practices of the specific card dealers near you.

Either way, best of luck.
   23. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5636824)
   24. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5636828)
So what do people here think about the North Korea thing?
   25. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5636846)

I don't like North Korea.
   26. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5636849)
I don't like North Korea.


As countries go it is not my first (second, third ....) choice.
   27. BDC Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5636850)
the LDS in the wake of the 1860 election

I can't tell whether this refers to the Mormon reaction to Lincoln, or the playoff series between the Knickerbockers and the Mutuals.
   28. DavidFoss Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5636856)
the playoff series between the Knickerbockers and the Mutuals.

This actually sounds like a big deal.

In 1860, reigning champion Atlantic of Brooklyn and challenger Excelsior of Brooklyn split their first two games. In the third, Excelsior was leading, 8–6, and had men on base, but chose to withdraw because of rowdy behavior by Atlantic partisans and gamblers. The game was declared a draw, and the championship retained by Atlantic.


There's certainly be some form of DS if that happened today.
   29. BDC Posted: March 12, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5636862)
what do people here think about the North Korea thing?

More seriously if equally off-topic, my book group selected James Church's novel A Corpse in the Koryo for this month. I don't have time to read it, but it might be of interest. "James Church" is purportedly a pen name for a former spy who knows stuff about North Korea, and he has published a series of six detective novels featuring "Inspector O," who must solve criminal cases while negotiating North Korean bureaucracy and politics.

It's an interesting project, because there aren't a lot of readers who can say "Hey, North Korea isn't really like that." The only other book I've even read about North Korea is Jean Echenoz's novel Special Envoy, which is wildly fabulated, even a bit magical-realist. Really "thinking about North Korea" is an exercise in the fictive imagination, and the emergence of Donald Trump as a major player in the history of North Korea just adds to the Alice-in-Wonderland quality of it all.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5636875)
I don't have time to read it

Calling bullshit on this, Mr 3 Book Reviews per Week
   31. Traderdave Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5636878)
I've read a number of books about NK, it's a strange fascination I have. Included in that tally are several defector memoirs. Most of them read very similarly, almost seem formulaic. That's likely becuase NKers lives are so monotonously similar.

But recently read "The Girl With Seven Names," a newer defector memoir. It's worth a read. Her story is quite different from most of the others.
   32. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5636882)
You must not talk to many scientists.

Tell me morrre.
   33. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5636885)
Somebody somewhere on these boards said NK's GDP was 12 billion dollars. If this true, I ask you to contemplate how a country worth $12B can be such a force. $12 billion? Where do they rank and how do those countries around it in ranking stand in world status?
   34. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5636886)

If this true, I ask you to contemplate how a country worth $12B can be such a force.
Nukes.

$12 billion? Where do they rank and how do those countries around it in ranking stand in world status?
Maybe you could research those issues and get back to us.
   35. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5636887)
What? And take away your opportunity to be a know-it-all pedant and quibbler.
   36. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5636888)
If this true, I ask you to contemplate how a country worth $12B can be such a force.


I mean, nukes.

It's like inviting a lunatic with a sawed-off shotgun to a cocktail party for billionaires, diplomats and Nobel prize recipients. In some senses he's the least important person in the room, but as long as he's waving the gun around, people are going to pay him an awful lot of attention.
   37. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5636889)
On the local front we're really excited that the Gone With The Wind museum is moving out of the square and being placed in the Brumby House. Apparently a restaurant will be replacing them in their current spot. We're also hoping that the moving of the museum will get them to clean up the grounds of the Brumby House and make it more usable as a park since it is just down the street from us. We're personally hoping that a Glen's Garden Market style shop goes in the museum's place but I doubt anything like that will go in there since there isn't any direct parking for the store. Just really hoping it isn't some mom and pop shvttily done restaurant more than anything.
   38. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5636890)

It's like inviting a lunatic with a sawed-off shotgun to a cocktail party for billionaires, diplomats and Nobel prize recipients.
But enough about FLTB's role at OTP.
   39. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5636891)
I mean, nukes.

Yeah, but after that, do people eat, go to schools, have medical care, etc. $12billion ain't much for a country of 25 million. Is it?

(But, I think maybe that $12 billion figure might be wrong.)
   40. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5636892)
I mean, nukes.
And before that, having a city of 9+ million people within range of a #### ton of artillery. If South Korea didn't have any significant cities within 50 miles of the DMZ, I suspect that recent history would have played out a lot differently.
   41. Greg K Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5636893)
Somebody somewhere on these boards said NK's GDP was 12 billion dollars. If this true, I ask you to contemplate how a country worth $12B can be such a force. $12 billion? Where do they rank and how do those countries around it in ranking stand in world status?

Powerful friends with an interest in the continued existence of the state, and more recently, nuclear weapons.

This seems like a simplistic answer so I feel like I'm missing the broader thrust of your question.

According to the IMF nations with a predicted GDP of around $12b for 2017 include: Albania, Burkina Faso, and Mauritius.
   42. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5636894)
It is rather amazing to see all those Christmas tree bulbs light up at the flip of a single switch.


LOL. It's not as though Farrakhan expectorated yet another suitable-for-Reifenstahl speech or anything, yet again coddled and celebrated by significant elements of the modern left.

To which the response among other elements of the modern left was the typical, "But Juanabout Trump, huh???" "JUANABOUT TRUMP!?!?!?!?"
   43. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5636898)
I think China has everything to do with NK's force and staying power. It has a lot more influence with NK and on NK than is bruited about generally.
   44. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5636900)
(But, I think maybe that $12 billion figure might be wrong.)
The UN estimated ~$17.3 billion in 2016, the IMF and World Bank didn't make estimates, presumably because North Korea is so far out of the world economic system. $17.3 billion is a shade behind Gabon, a country less than 1/12th the size of North Korea.

EDIT: (From Wikipedia)
   45. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5636901)
Mauritius


Just imagine where they'd be if Dodo bird tourism were alive and well.
   46. Greg K Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5636902)
(But, I think maybe that $12 billion figure might be wrong.)

It's my understanding that it probably is in that it is very difficult to get any kind of accurate read on the North Korean economy. So any guess is almost certainly wrong, but one of them has be the most accurate one!


The data, as reported by the North Korean census of 2008, show that nearly 93% of households lack access to gas or electricity and rely on firewood or coal. Assuming the numbers bear some relation to reality, they put North Korea in line with countries such Uganda and Haiti, and suggest that North Korea’s purchasing-power-adjusted income per person was somewhere between $948 and $1,361 in 2008.


Recent Economist article on estimating the North Korean economy
   47. Traderdave Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5636903)
I think China has everything to do with NK's force and staying power. It has a lot more influence with NK and on NK than is bruited about generally.


China does have a lot of influence but China is also frustrated with their lack of control. NK is like the crazy alcoholic cousin who shits all over every gathering. They do their best to give him a few sips of booze to keep him calmed down but not so much to get hammered & crazy. They really wish he'd quit showing up to family events but they know the're stuck with him. And if they're stuck with, they say, they might as well try to get a little value out of him.
   48. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5636908)
Also, a totalitarian country can outperform its GDP when it comes to military might. The people running a place like Gabon aren't going to try to funnel 100% of the GDP through the government, and they're also presumably unwilling to let a massive famine kill off a significant percentage of the population, unlike the North Koreans. You'll see estimates that 25% of North Korea's GDP goes to the military. No non-totalitarian state could get anywhere near that number.
   49. BDC Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5636910)
Albania

For a long time, of course, Albania was the North Korea of Europe, right down to close-yet-strained relations with China. I hear it's a fascinating place to visit now, but I am somehow not rushing to book any trips there.
   50. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5636913)
Just imagine where they'd be if Dodo bird tourism were alive and well.


This #### is fascinating to me.

I was listening to someone blab on (ironically it was an African American...) about the "noble savage" and how in tune the natives were to the land and how everything was in balance and couldn't help but think about the Moa and the aborigines. I really wanted to bring up a couple well known examples such as this one but decided to just keep my mouth shut. I'm sure Blanks thinks that's a sign of the decline. Should have mansplained/whintesplained I guess.
   51. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5636915)
Agreed on the moa.

And on noble savages.

The Song of the Dodo is one of my favorite science books.
   52. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5636920)
Agreed on the moa.

And on noble savages.

The Song of the Dodo is one of my favorite science books.


And the moa being killed off led to the largest eagles to have ever existed going extinct.
   53. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5636921)
I was listening to someone blab on (ironically it was an African American...) about the "noble savage" and how in tune the natives were to the land and how everything was in balance and couldn't help but think about the Moa and the aborigines. I really wanted to bring up a couple well known examples such as this one but decided to just keep my mouth shut. I'm sure Blanks thinks that's a sign of the decline. Should have mansplained/whintesplained I guess.


Western romanticism. While not really consistent with empirical reality, it comes from a good place. (*)

You can pretty much say the same about, for example, a band like REM.

(*) Concepts like "mansplaining" and "whitesplaining" come from a less good place.
   54. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5636922)
Albania, Albania
You border on the Adriatic
Your land is mostly mountainous
And your chief export is chrome
   55. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5636923)
This #### is fascinating to me.
There's very good evidence that human arrival, or at least large-scale human arrival, on all of the major landmasses triggered massive extinction events of large animals, probably from overhunting of prey animals. To take the obvious example, the Clovis people showed up in the Americas something like 11.5K years ago, and within 1500 years we had the extinction of North American horses, camels, tapirs, ground sloths, mammoths, mastadons, gomphotheres, giant tortoises, lions, sabre tooth cats, cheetahs, dire wolves, cave bears, glyptodonts, and a host of other cool creatures. ####, those ######## even killed off the giant beavers!

(Yes, there were probably humans in the Americas before Clovis, but there probably weren't so many of them and they didn't have the high tech hunting kit that the Clovis people had.)
   56. McCoy Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5636926)
That sounds like my MTG deck.
   57. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5636927)
Albania, Albania
You border on the Adriatic
Your land is mostly mountainous
And your chief export is chrome


Coach!

   58. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5636929)
China does have a lot of influence but China is also frustrated with their lack of control. NK is like the crazy alcoholic cousin who shits all over every gathering. They do their best to give him a few sips of booze to keep him calmed down but not so much to get hammered & crazy. They really wish he'd quit showing up to family events but they know the're stuck with him. And if they're stuck with, they say, they might as well try to get a little value out of him.

That's understandable, but there's also the secret alcoholic who uses the crazy obvious alcoholic to deflect suspicion and excuse his own behavior. ("See, I'm not as bad as that. I can't be an alcoholic.")

The only reason NK exists is because the US didn't want to risk all-out war with China.
   59. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5636931)
I remember learning about the extinction of the ground sloths and giant beavers when I was 18. Mind blown. I think at that time I still bought the "they use every part of the buffalo" crap I learned around 4th grade. Oh, you know who else uses every part of the buffalo? The modern industrial livestock industry.
   60. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5636934)
The only reason NK exists is because the US didn't want to risk all-out war with China.


COLLUSION!!
   61. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5636935)
59

Ever been to a real, as opposed to a festive for show, Cajun boucherie?
   62. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5636936)
yet again coddled and celebrated by significant elements of the modern left.


Like who? Anyone that anyone pays any attention to?

When Farrakhan gets the Democratic nomination for president any time soon, I'll join you in what is now your lunacy.

   63. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5636937)
It's just a tangle of resentments & bigotries, driven by the erosion of white privilege.


LOL. "White privilege" has been "eroding" since at least 1964. Which is to say, "white privilege" is a mushy, idiotic term, but the thing it seems to be trying to communicate has been steadily eroding for at least 50 years. It's effectively non-existent today and in a few important areas whiteness is an actual detriment.
   64. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5636938)
COLLUSION!!

China is Harvey Weinstein. NK Rose McGowan before her epiphany.
   65. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5636939)
Like who? Anyone that anyone pays any attention to?


Yep. We went through this yesterday. The co-president of the Women's March called LF the "Greatest of All-Time" not long ago, and sat through his lunatic ravings against "the Jews" a couple weeks ago. He called her out by name in the middle. She still hasn't remotely condemned him -- nor of course did she do the decent thing and get up and walk out when he started his unhinged rantings against "the Jews." The question is why, given his past rhetoric -- "Hitler was a very great man," etc. -- she would have walked in in the first place.

When Farrakhan gets the Democratic nomination for president any time soon, I'll join you in what is now your lunacy.


Juanabout Trump!

Yes, we know.
   66. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5636940)
Probably many or all of you are familiar with the argument in 1491, which is that with the bare exception of a handful of first contact encounters, every time white men encountered more new natives in the Americas they were looking at a people that had been absolutely ravaged by smallpox and such, years or even decades previous. The low impact subsistence hunting & gathering they witnessed across the US & Canada was sometimes the result of fallen civilization, with old economies having been utterly smashed by population losses.
   67. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5636942)

Ever been to a real, as opposed to a festive for show, Cajun boucherie?


No, I don't think I have. But I've been to many butcher shops across the world. I've worked in butcher shops. I've worked in "whole animal" restaurants. I've made andouillette and head cheese and all sorts of stuff. I consult for sausage makers and slaughterhouses. I know this stuff pretty well.
   68. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5636946)
You must not talk to many scientists.

Tell me morrre.


I'm not sure what you're looking for - that spiel is maybe not framed in quite the most ordinary way, but it's a pretty ordinary sentiment in science. A lot of time is spent on trying to parse out where approximate answers do well and don't, and a lot of time is spent on trying to understand how likely answers are to be good.

In practice - of course, even though there may not be such a thing as gravity, I don't select randomly from among the windows and doors in my two story house when looking for an exit. Our level of confidence that we understand gravity on macroscopic scales at low velocities is quite high. We could all be Boltzmann brains, but you can't live your life like that (and if we are, we'll all be dead soon anyways).
   69. Swoboda is freedom Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5636947)
China does have a lot of influence but China is also frustrated with their lack of control. NK is like the crazy alcoholic cousin who shits all over every gathering. They do their best to give him a few sips of booze to keep him calmed down but not so much to get hammered & crazy. They really wish he'd quit showing up to family events but they know the're stuck with him. And if they're stuck with, they say, they might as well try to get a little value out of him.

I think China is worried that if he does sober up, he gets remarried to the former wife, South Korea. China does not want that a large powerful country on its border.
   70. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5636948)
China does not want that a large powerful country on its border.

This is where China needs to stop whining. Irritating and pathetic behavior. The problem is probably more China than NK.
   71. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5636950)
This is where China needs to stop whining. Irritating and pathetic behavior.

I hate this too.
   72. Traderdave Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5636952)
I think China is worried that if he does sober up, he gets remarried to the former wife, South Korea. China does not want that a large powerful country on its border.


Ex wife gives no indication of wanting him back. She'll help him here & there, maybe bail him out a time or two, and she'll always help the children. But re-marry Uncle Nork? No way. He's untouchable without at least 50 years of rehab.
   73. Greg K Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5636953)
I don't think it's an uncommon dynamic in the world of international relations.

A great power with an interest in an otherwise insignificant little nation. The great power would love it if the client nation just kept its head down and maintained the status quo, but the client nation insists on doing reckless, idiotic things that upset international stability. Publicly, the great nation has to show some solidarity, but privately you can't help but imagine they are saying: "Dude, can you just shut the #### up for once?"

Bismarck's "some damn fool thing in the Balkans" line is somewhat related.

EDIT: The relationship between England and the Palatine in the 1620s fits this model too.
   74. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5636955)
China does not want that a large powerful country on its border.
Even a reunited Korea would rank fourth in the list of powerful (even nuclear) countries bordering China. Granted the proximity to Beijing is a tad higher.
   75. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5636958)
Juanabout Trump!


As usual, you have it backwards. Let's arm teachers, kill all drug dealers, and install Trump "President for life"!
   76. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5636959)
China has countries of the power level of a North+South Korea on it's border already. The idea that they're blocking reunification because of this is a bit nutty - the usual American inability to understand that not everything is either done to support or oppose American goals.

And, of course, the idea that unifying with the North would make the South more powerful is ... dubious.
   77. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5636961)
Can't we all just get along?
   78. BDC Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5636963)
Probably many or all of you are familiar with the argument in 1491, which is that with the bare exception of a handful of first contact encounters, every time white men encountered more new natives in the Americas they were looking at a people that had been absolutely ravaged by smallpox and such, years or even decades previous. The low impact subsistence hunting & gathering they witnessed across the US & Canada was sometimes the result of fallen civilization

I don't know if this is also in 1491, but a couple of books I've read recently have mentioned the hypothesis that the Little Ice Age of the 1600-1700s was caused in part by reforestation in the Americas. With so many fewer Indians around to clear land for crops, the forests regrew quickly, locked up lots of atmospheric carbon, and global cooling resulted. I don't know if this is a valid hypothesis, but it's a current one, anyway.

A couple of principles may apply: newcomers often devastate an ecosystem, even unwittingly; and long-established hunter-gatherers or "sedentists" often reach a kind of sustainable equilibrium (almost by definition; if they don't, they disappear). "All parts of the buffalo" (or whatever animal) is not always BS; but it may indicate locally pragmatic cultures of any race, rather than some mystic pan-Indian credo that Europeans can't understand. (E.g. I imagine that traditional Sami in Scandinavia make just as efficient use of reindeer as Inuits do of seals, etc.)
   79. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5636965)
Ex wife gives no indication of wanting him back. She'll help him here & there, maybe bail him out a time or two, and she'll always help the children. But re-marry Uncle Nork? No way. He's untouchable without at least 50 years of rehab.


Hmmmm.... I don't know about that - it remains the official policy of South Korea to seek reunification (just as it's the North's official policy)... SK still has a "Ministry of Unification" and they still provide materials very much in support of unification, including educational curriculum.

Now, if it were to magically become near-term feasible - I imagine there might be some very sober walkbacks... German reunification would be a veritable walk in the park compared to Korean reunification.

Still - it's South Korea, not Japan, that has been the economic super star of the Pacific rim for the last generation or so.
   80. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5636967)
Can't we all just get along?


Not with Trump. Not with his acolytes.
   81. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5636968)
@76: ITS

/end grrrrrammarian ;)
   82. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5636970)
Not with Trump. Not with his acolytes.


A fundamental symptom of TDS. Identical to LDS.
   83. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5636971)
Likely last poll of PA-18 has Lamb winning pretty handily - and winning even if turnout doesn't show the same special election bumps seen in the last 6 months.

Maybe it's not a toss-up.
   84. zenbitz Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5636972)

Follow up from last thread:

That and all the new astrophysics (cosmic microwave background, so called "dark matter", gravity waves) is keeping people busy for now.


I am no physicist, but I think Dark Matter/Dark Energy is likely a bad model. It seems way more likely that there is some nuance in the basic law of Gravity that applies at cosmological distances.

Modified Newtonian Mechanics

It does fit the data the best however. I actually find Dark Energy way less satisfying, so possibly there is a hybrid theory.

I am also wrong about Machine Learning, fwiw.

   85. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5636974)
A fundamental symptom of TDS


... is thinking you can make peace with crazy people.

Crazy people either need to stop being crazy or go away.
   86. zenbitz Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5636976)
There are all kinds of scientists, just like there are all kinds of Lawyers (real, fake, shyster, ...)

Some of them -- the good ones -- are well aware that what they do is only a reflection of an image of a model of reality. Others are only focused on outcomes - how do I get good papers in good journals? and How do I get to the next grant? How do I have the biggest lab in the department? WHEN WILL THAT NOBEL COMMITTEE RECOGNIZE MY GREATNESS...

Lots are a mix.

Probably the one thing they have in common is that (at some point) they were obsessed over some lab problem or theory.

   87. -- Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5636979)
A fundamental symptom of TDS


... is thinking you can make peace with crazy people.

Crazy people either need to stop being crazy or go away.


Yes, we know. That's the symptom.
   88. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5636982)
Powerful friends with an interest in the continued existence of the state, and more recently, nuclear weapons.

This seems like a simplistic answer so I feel like I'm missing the broader thrust of your question.

It's Morty. The water might reach as far as the eye can see, but it is never more than ankle-deep.
   89. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5636984)
A re-united Korea would be about the best thing that could possibly happen to China. Takes a headcase, and a charity-case off their shoulders, and would set back South Korea by decades.
   90. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5636985)
A couple of principles may apply: newcomers often devastate an ecosystem, even unwittingly; and long-established hunter-gatherers or "sedentists" often reach a kind of sustainable equilibrium (almost by definition; if they don't, they disappear). "All parts of the buffalo" (or whatever animal) is not always BS; but it may indicate locally pragmatic cultures of any race, rather than some mystic pan-Indian credo that Europeans can't understand. (E.g. I imagine that traditional Sami in Scandinavia make just as efficient use of reindeer as Inuits do of seals, etc.)


Fair enough. Yes. And white hunters did shoot buffalo by the thousands, skin them, and leave them to rot in the prairie.
   91. OCF Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5636986)
I think China is worried that if he does sober up, he gets remarried to the former wife, South Korea. China does not want that a large powerful country on its border.

Before the the reunification of Germany, East Germany was a highly industrialized, highly educated country with the highest per-capita GDP in Eastern Europe. Although Communist rule had distorted its civic institutions and legal structures, it was still had such laws and institutions. And yet: reunification basically collapsed the East German economy. A lot of people lost their jobs and had to move. Even now, 25-30 years later, there's an East/West political divide on a lot of issues. Putting together a united Germany was expensive and painful and maybe the process isn't done yet. Trying to put Korea back together would greatly exceed the expense and pain of that, and in the near term might very well weaken South Korea's current standing in the world.

Edit: Coke to Banana Pants?
   92. . . . . . . Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5636987)
I don't know if this is also in 1491, but a couple of books I've read recently have mentioned the hypothesis that the Little Ice Age of the 1600-1700s was caused in part by reforestation in the Americas. With so many fewer Indians around to clear land for crops, the forests regrew quickly, locked up lots of atmospheric carbon, and global cooling resulted. I don't know if this is a valid hypothesis, but it's a current one, anyway.


It’s neither current nor valid. But it sounds cool, and there are always suckers like this poster who like cool sounding bullshit.

   93. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5636988)
Fair enough. Yes. And white hunters did shoot buffalo by the thousands, skim them, and leave them to rot in the prairie.
There's a good argument that the superabundance of animals like bison (and passenger pigeons and a few others) was the result of a disturbed ecosystem. The introduction of smallbox and other Eurasian diseases led to the sudden collapse of the population of alpha predators, i.e., humans, meaning that the populations of certain prey species could explode. As one book I read (this might have been 1491; I don't remember) put it , when the Spanish went up the Mississippi in the 16th century they saw tens of thousands of people and didn't mention bison. When the French went down the Mississippi in the 17th century they saw tens or hundreds of thousands of bison, and very few people.
   94. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5636991)
But it sounds cool, and there are always suckers like this poster who like cool sounding bullshit.


Are you referring to yourself or BDC? I can't see any reason to criticize BDC for relaying that tidbit while noting that he had no idea how valid it was.
   95. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5636999)
I am no physicist, but I think Dark Matter/Dark Energy is likely a bad model. It seems way more likely that there is some nuance in the basic law of Gravity that applies at cosmological distances.

Modified Newtonian Mechanics


MOND has taken a bullet (cluster) and died horribly. MOND was also developed to explain the Pioneer anomaly, but it turns out that was the result of the paint on Pioneer getting ablated by dust, so the thermal radiation wasn't quite how it was being modelled. While people do spend time trying to get around dark matter, (and like, we invite them round to give talks and the like), there're no promising alternative ideas. And really, the ones that are are probably way, way bigger asks than wanting one or more unchanged, flavourless, colourless particles. Lambda-CDM does a wicked good job at predicting the structure of the universe (although for low enough mass galaxies, we should expect to see warm dark matter).

When I was an undergrad, the professor of our fourth year cosmology course gave betting odds of 100-1 there's dark matter, 10-1 there's dark energy, and 3-1 there was inflation. That was (and probably still is) well bullish on inflation, and maybe we have to talk a bit about what would qualify as dark energy, but between WMAP and the Bullet Cluster, it was getting exceedingly hard to avoid dark matter. And, with the Pioneer anomaly explained, our confidence level in dark matter should be even higher now.
   96. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5637003)
the usual American inability to understand that not everything is either done to support or oppose American goals.

Regarding a Chinese resistance to Korean reunification, whether it's accurate or not, I don't see how this theory is backed by American goals. I simply read it as what the Chinese may or may not want to happen.
   97. Traderdave Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5637006)
As one book I read (this might have been 1491; I don't remember) put it , when the Spanish went up the Mississippi in the 16th century they saw tens of thousands of people and didn't mention bison. When the French went down the Mississippi in the 17th century they saw tens or hundreds of thousands of bison, and very few people.


Depending on which conjecture one believes, DeSoto didn't go any further than Arkansas and maybe not even that far north. If he was hugging rivers along his route it's not impossible that he wouldn't have seen any. The French were starting much farther north and deeper into the bisons' range. They also branched out well away from the Mississippi.

Who the hell knows if it's accurate, but it's not an unreasonable guess that the Spanish would not have seen but the French saw many for perfectly rational reasons.
   98. Morty Causa Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5637007)
67

My only point with the reference is that everything is used at a real boucherie.
   99. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5637009)
Of course, they didn't go to the exact same places, but we know the Mound Builders civilisation disappeared in the 1500s, so it was also true that the cities the Spanish saw were merely hills when the French came through.
   100. Tom T Posted: March 12, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5637010)
Some of them -- the good ones -- are well aware that what they do is only a reflection of an image of a model of reality. Others are only focused on outcomes - how do I get good papers in good journals? and How do I get to the next grant? How do I have the biggest lab in the department? WHEN WILL THAT NOBEL COMMITTEE RECOGNIZE MY GREATNESS...


And then there are the departments/colleges/universities that focus entirely on doing research to bring in grant money (opposed to viewing grant money as a useful, or even essential, input to doing research). The "run it like a business" model ("You don't have a Nobel prize, so you must suck, and we shouldn't have to support you or your lab any longer!") very much pushes scientists toward the more problem-inducing views of the job.
Page 1 of 18 pages  1 2 3 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Brian
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 2018 August 13: 'Don't confuse sports with politics,' Kosovo tells Bosnia
(1852 - 12:28am, Aug 20)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (August 2018)
(942 - 12:26am, Aug 20)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogDodgers lose to Mariners in extra innings with walk-off balk
(36 - 12:04am, Aug 20)
Last: Davo and his Moose Tacos

NewsblogWeekend OMNICHATTER for August 18-19, 2018
(161 - 11:01pm, Aug 19)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogIt’s official: PawSox to move to Worcester - The Boston Globe
(31 - 9:38pm, Aug 19)
Last: dlf

NewsblogWaPo - Washington Nationals Unveil Bullpen Cart
(1 - 7:52pm, Aug 19)
Last: RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball

NewsblogMinnesota Steakhouse Pranks Umpire Joe West With Braille Menu
(1 - 7:49pm, Aug 19)
Last: RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball

NewsblogYankees 1998 reunion was missing Derek Jeter and completely ignored Joe Girardi
(3 - 7:35pm, Aug 19)
Last: Stormy JE

NewsblogLatest bigotry reminds us that baseball is a white man's game.
(319 - 6:33pm, Aug 19)
Last: Rennie's Tenet

NewsblogOT - August/September 2018 College Football thread
(40 - 6:18pm, Aug 19)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (2018-19 season begins!)
(339 - 5:09pm, Aug 19)
Last: G. Bostock

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(151 - 4:22pm, Aug 19)
Last: Bleed the Freak

NewsblogBig Al speaks: Meet the dinger-hitting 12-year-old who became a viral Little League sensation
(9 - 1:55pm, Aug 19)
Last: Bote Man is no David

NewsblogCalcaterra - Dusty Baker Drops Truth Bombs
(40 - 10:07am, Aug 19)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogOT: Wrestling Thread November 2014
(2276 - 10:26pm, Aug 18)
Last: Chokeland Bill

Page rendered in 0.6586 seconds
46 querie(s) executed