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Monday, March 12, 2018

OTP 12 March 2018: Trevor Bauer thinks Major League Baseball trying to silence him on Twitter

Last February, Bauer made waves on Twitter when he argued over politics with his followers. He tweeted that almost all of the Indians supported Donald Trump and told another user they were “welcome to quit life.”

Bauer has been much calmer as of late and that could be because MLB stepped in. The 27-year-old hasn’t tweeted that much this offseason and when he does it’s been about things like the Olympics and his training.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 12, 2018 at 08:17 AM | 1718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cleveland indians, off topic, politics, twitter

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   1401. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5639159)
Flop
   1402. DavidFoss Posted: March 16, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5639160)
Obviously simply BOILING the water to make tea or coffee would help tremendously.

That's what I meant. Sorry. I think I may have rewritten that sentence a couple of times. My second sentence was more what I meant 'Switching from a brewed depressant to a brewed stimulant'

Anyhow, people *could* just brew plain water and it would have the same effect. Did medieval people actually do that?
   1403. Ishmael Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5639166)
The BDC exchange was about aboriginal culture in Australia only. I thought there was more there, too -- but I guess not. He must have made the comparison between IJ and other "symbolic creations" first, then I chimed in.

BDC refers to an earlier conversation in that link.

I think this is the comment that Omineca Greg is remembering:
3460. Larvell B Posted: September 21, 2015 at 09:56 AM (#5043204)
But what exactly did David Foster Wallace ever accomplish aside from constructing a massive symbolic structure?

Communicating and creating narratives and ideas about humans, human cultures, and the human condition that are light years more advanced than anything the Australian bushman could ever conceive??

It has no bearing on YOUR philosophy, because you don't value all people. I do.

I do value all people. I have nothing against the Australian bushman, I simply see no need to pretend about the relative depth and accomplishment of his culture.

You think people with more money are better than others, or if you don't then why are you valuing "output"?


I haven't said a word about money, or even hinted at it. I didn't mean "economic output" when I said "output."

Link.

FWIW - Greg, Bear - my impression is that SBB is just an unbelievably massive David Foster Wallace fan. And, as we know, given to hyperbole.
   1404. Omineca Greg Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5639167)
Alright, here's a story that almost fits.

I was talking to a First Nations activist recently. And if he were here, this is what he would want me to pass along...

Don't think that the First Nations are ungrateful for what the Europeans brought. Now, we have better medicine, and we have more food, and more sophisticated houses, and cars. All those things are from your culture, and we're glad you brought them. In a very real way you have shared these things with us, and you've improved our lives. It's not all bad.

But there were other things that happened. Bad things, things that shouldn't have happened. And there's no accountability for them, not even an acknowledgement sometimes. To the individual white person, we don't hold anger or resentment, when I see you, I'm not angry, you were born here just like I was. In a way, you have nothing to do with it. Maybe that's a mistake on our part, because it lets the entire European culture off the hook, because as individuals, we don't hold you responsible; we hold your leaders responsible. But you don't hold your leaders responsible to treat us better. Maybe it's your fault after all.

The saddest thing is how you ignored everything that the First Nations have, our values, our ideas. Did we have as many good ideas as you had? No...not at all. But it doesn't mean we had no good ideas, it doesn't mean that we couldn't have taught you something. We tried, we said to ourselves, "Ah, if only the White people could think like Natives, even for just one day" how much better our country could be. The thing is, we can think like you, you forced us to. We understand both the White's ways and our ways; we are the hybrid, we are the ones that can have the best of both worlds. You can't, because you weren't interested, it never occurred to you that we might be able to help you with issues you were having. We weren't perfect when you got here, but do you know what? Neither were you.

If there was even one First Nations idea that crossed over into mainstream Canadian culture, it would be the first. Do you really think so little of us, that you can't even speak to one thing and say, "That's one thing the First Nations got right." Not one.

   1405. zenbitz Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5639168)
Anyhow, people *could* just brew plain water and it would have the same effect. Did medieval people actually do that?


Whitey hadn't given them the germ theory of disease yet.
   1406. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5639169)
I found a clean copy of Infinite Jest yesterday in a thrift store, $2.92.


Yeah? I picked up all of dreamtime on the .99 rack.
   1407. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5639175)
BDC actually compared DFW's work to the "symbolic creations" of the Australian bushman, apparently. And then asked "what exactly did David Foster Wallace ever accomplish?"

Which ... um yeah. No wonder I wrote what I wrote. "Symbolic creations" being the operative words. Yikes.

If there's actual literature that has come out of there that is on par with something like Infinite Jest let me know, because it's probably really good. Certainly, Sherman Alexie's work is really good, though I should read more of it.
   1408. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5639177)
Sam Harris on Charles Murray and Race and IQ

I link this because Harris in this interview enumerates some very specific things about IQ and race. Starting about at the 12:00 minute mark

This is more, I think, in The Good Face's province of claims than mine. I'm more interested in whether there is a biological basis for group differences (ala the Richard Dawkins clip) and how that and culture drive evolution, for culture, since it developed in our history is part of the environmental pressure, and those pressures are specific to the specific different ecological/cultural context. I think that means focusing on theories of biology, on driving forces that create attributes and traits, and not so much on turning your internal combustion engine.

Oh, and if you think I will answer each of everyone's quibbles and defend against all attempts at throwing a wrench in the cogs, you will be disappointed. I simply don't have the time or the inclination, given the sincerity of those quibbles and attempts, which makes any exertions by me foredoomed. I don't participate as it is on these boards nearly as much as I used to, and I'm sure some of you will be happy to hear that that is likely to become even less and less. And when I don't participate, it's usually something on which I can expatiate with some confidence off the top of my head, like old movies and certain areas of literature. I can't do that with this topic. I have to work at it from beginning to end.
   1409. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5639178)
FWIW - Greg, Bear - my impression is that SBB is just an unbelievably massive David Foster Wallace fan.
Which is fine.
And, as we know, given to hyperbole.
Which is fine, too. That being said, if one is given to constructs along the lines of "Accomplishment [X] is categorically impossible by a member of race [Y]", then one should go ahead and own it as racism.
Communicating and creating narratives and ideas about humans, human cultures, and the human condition that are light years more advanced than anything the Australian bushman could ever conceive
Infinite Jest is a higher order work of literature than any literature produced by an aborigine. It obviously is.
   1410. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5639179)
I did happen to remember this, which has to do with symbiotic relation of culture and biology as it applies to driving evolution.

There's an interaction between genes and culture.

Most recently I've been also thinking about the evolution of societal complexity. This is the emergence of complex societies that happens after the origins of agriculture, when societies begin to get big and complex and you have lots of interactions among strangers, large-scale cooperation, market exchange, militaries, division of labor, substantial division of labor. We have a sense of the sequence of events, but we don't have good process descriptions of how it was. What are the causal processes that bring these things about?

One of the ideas I've been pursuing is that after the origins of agriculture, there was an intense period that continues today of intergroup competition, which favors groups who have social norms and institutions that can more effectively expand the group while maintaining internal harmony, leading to the benefits of exchange, of the ability to maintain markets, of division of labor and of higher levels of cooperation. Then you get intense competition amongst the early farming groups, and this is going to favor those groups who have the abilities to expand.
   1411. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5639181)
I don't see how it gets us anywhere to talk about stuff in terms of morality, much less pejoratives, like calling views and opinions racists or sexists or...whatever. It reveals to me an overwhelming urge to shut down discussion, not to foster it.

I'm not much on DFW. I gave him a try and quickly gave it up. He's too late to the party. Bob Costas once said Ted Williams was the man John Wayne pretended to be. I can't but feel that's how it is with DFW. He came too late to the party. Joyce, Beckett, Barth--they've been there, done that and more.

   1412. Omineca Greg Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5639184)
I think this is the comment that Omineca Greg is remembering


That's the one!

Well, I'll leave it up to people to make of it what they will.
   1413. Ishmael Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5639185)
BDC actually compared DFW's work to the "symbolic creations" of the Australian bushman, apparently. And then asked "what exactly did David Foster Wallace ever accomplish?"

Which ... um yeah. No wonder I wrote what I wrote. "Symbolic creations" being the operative words. Yikes.

Do you know much about Indigenous Australian art and culture - the dreaming, songlines, painting, music etc?
   1414. BDC Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5639186)
It is a little surreal to be following accounts of a conversation I was involved in, but don't remember having :)

EDIT: And Morty, I will try to look at your links, but I have limited patience with audio-visual stuff. I would far, far rather read anything than listen to a podcast or watch a TED talk. My failing, not yours.

FURTHER EDIT: But I will say, yes, the songlines (which I know of almost entirely via Bruce Chatwin) are equal conceptually to most large projects of modern fiction.
   1415. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5639187)
Infinite Jest is my favorite novel. I know the beginning is kind of tough sledding, but I'd encourage anyone who's interested in it to give it a shot.
   1416. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5639189)
Do you know much about Indigenous Australian art and culture - the dreaming, songlines, painting, music etc?


I'm sure some of it is excellent, as I've already said, and I'm sure that if I explored more I'd find some that I thought was excellent.

But none of the literature or "symbolic creations" are Infinite Jest. If someone has an example they think measures up, present it and make the case.

And before the inevitable, "It's all subjective anyways" start flowing, I think we'd all agree that the October 25, 1985 teleplay presentation of Dynasty doesn't match up with, say, Macbeth.
   1417. Greg K Posted: March 16, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5639191)
From #1410:

One possible exception to that is bird song. Bird songs accumulate in such that birds from large continents have more complex songs than birds from islands. It turns out humans from smaller islands have less complex material culture than humans from larger islands, at least until recently, until communication was opened up. One of the interesting lines of research that's come out of this recognition is the importance of population size and the interconnectedness for technology.


I thought this was interesting since Dodo birds and Easter Islanders have both come up in the past couple days.

EDIT: The "exception" the quote is referring to is the fact that animals other than human's don't seem to exhibit cumulative learning where each generation adds to learned behaviours (which is his rough definition of "culture").
   1418. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5639192)
1414

chacun son goût.

But I'm not anyone's research clerk. Especially as it applies to anyone's gourmet tastes as to sources. And I don't do snipe hunts. (This doesn't necessarily apply to you specifically.)
   1419. PreservedFish Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5639193)
1417 - Both by me!

I do my best to steer conversation here in lovely directions.
   1420. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5639194)
I don't see how it gets us anywhere to talk about stuff in terms of morality, much less pejoratives, like calling views and opinions racists or sexists or...whatever. It reveals to me an overwhelming urge to shut down discussion, not to foster it.
I disagree. As a society, we shouldn't let that #### slide.

If you want to say that IJ specifically is a creation of the western world, that's fine and dandy. The subject matter described is a function of the author's experience, or whatever. But don't imply - or explicitly state - that insight into the human condition is wholly restricted to certain races, or mediums you are familiar with.

Observant critics of the human condition exist, and express themselves artistically, in all cultures. To say they're different from each other is one thing; to proclaim one is beyond another or that a racial component prevents comprehension is quite another.
   1421. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5639195)
Yeah, I, too, think Shakespeare is overrated. We are all too much urged to appreciate him indiscriminately and unthinkingly. There's a lot of filler in those plays. Still, he's world class great. (For an alternative, modulating view, read America's great comic novelist Peter DeVries's Let Me Count the Ways. His second main character, Tom Waltz, is writing his thesis on the clowns in Shakespeare, whom he loathes, and his characterization of the bard, parodies and burlesques, are brutal.)
   1422. mswift Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5639196)
   1423. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5639199)
I don't see how it gets us anywhere to talk about stuff in terms of morality, much less pejoratives, like calling views and opinions racists or sexists or...whatever. It reveals to me an overwhelming urge to shut down discussion, not to foster it.


The entire point of their perspective and their engagement is their snipe hunt for "racists." And it's gotten worse; I bet if you go back to the pre-Trump conversation there was far less pearl clutching about "racism" and the like.

The subject matter described is a function of the author's experience, or whatever. But don't imply - or explicitly state - that insight into the human condition is wholly restricted to certain races, or mediums you are familiar with....

To say they're different from each other is one thing; to proclaim one is beyond another or that a racial component prevents comprehension is quite another.


Nobody said anything close to this. Pure invention. Snipe hunt.

I doubt the indigenous languages of Australia are even rich enough to permit linguistic expression -- which is what we were talking about, not artistic expression generally -- of the caliber of an Infinite Jest. Writing in, say, computer code 1s and 0s wouldn't either. Are there native Australians with as sophisticated a perspective on the human condition, be it local or universal, as a DFW? I'm sure there are.
   1424. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5639200)

But I'm not anyone's research clerk.
That... takes a lot of chutzpah, coming as it does from someone whose entire style of interaction is to ask questions that he could look up the answers to himself.
   1425. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5639202)
FURTHER EDIT: But I will say, yes, the songlines (which I know of almost entirely via Bruce Chatwin) are equal conceptually to most large projects of modern fiction.


The language they use isn't rich enough for them to conceptually equal an Infinite Jest, in my opinion. I'm open to the counterargument, assuming anyone believes it.
   1426. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5639203)
The IQ Problem

What IQ means, and what it has to say about different populations, is put straightforwardly, even bluntly, if regretfully.
   1427. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5639204)
To say they're different from each other is one thing; to proclaim one is beyond another or that a racial component prevents comprehension is quite another.

Nobody said anything close to this. Pure invention. Snipe hunt.
In reality, you said both:
Communicating and creating narratives and ideas about humans, human cultures, and the human condition that are light years more advanced than anything the Australian bushman could ever conceive
Infinite Jest is a higher order work of literature than any literature produced by an aborigine. It obviously is.
Your words. Songlines and IJ are entirely different media; one's not higher than another. Bushmen live in a human society, and are entirely capable of creating narratives and ideas about the human condition.

If you'd like to backtrack and qualify and say you really meant something other than what you actually typed, great - that's exactly the point of these discussions, to learn from each other and clarify our thinking. But don't try to deny what you wrote.
   1428. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5639205)
Your words. Songlines and IJ are entirely different media;


Yes, exactly. Now go back and read what I said, slowly. You'll hopefully see things differently -- as they actually are.
   1429. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5639207)
Your words: IJ is a higher order work than any produced by an aborigine.
My words: Songlines and IJ are entirely different media; one's not higher than another.

Much like O Greg, I believe it's a good idea to let others make of it what they will.
   1430. PreservedFish Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5639209)
Years later, I still want to know how OG knows so much about toilets.
   1431. . Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5639211)
Your words: IJ is a higher order work than any produced by an aborigine.


Nope, those aren't my words. How the words can be like two inches above for you to read at your leisure and yet you repeatedly distort them is the proverbial mystery best left to the reader.

At this point, you're obviously intentionally lying and engagement with you has become tiresome. It kind of has been since you stalked me for like eight days about the "embrace of Islam" thing. At this point, the ignore button is my friend and I will avail myself of it.

OG is also continuing to misstate -- that's a kind word for it -- what I said. I never said anything like "IJ surpasses the combined cultural output of aboriginal cultures."
   1432. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5639212)

FLTB is pretending to put people on ignore because other people have said they put him on ignore, and "No puppet, no puppet, you're the puppet" is his entire mode of being.
   1433. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5639213)
Oh, and if you think I will answer each of everyone's quibbles and defend against all attempts at throwing a wrench in the cogs, you will be disappointed.


We all think you'll continue to jack off into the wind, Morty. It's what we expect at this point.
   1434. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5639216)
To make the record entirely clear:
1362. Larvell B Posted: March 16, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5639086)
I remember once, Mr. Blanks said that Infinite Jest was a bigger contribution to world culture than the entire Aborigine people.

I never said anything like that and it's not the kind of thing I would say as it's apples and oranges. I would say, and recall saying to BDC -- a literature professor -- something like Infinite Jest is a higher order work of literature than any literature produced by an aborigine. It obviously is.
I then quoted and critiqued this statement several times, including 1409 and 1427 on this page.

Then in 1427 I rebutted SBB's "higher order" claim with this: "Your words. Songlines and IJ are entirely different media; one's not higher than another." where "your words" referred to the preceding snippet and "Songlines and IJ are entirely different media" was my own rebuttal. Granted, that may take a moment to parse.

SBB now appears to be claiming that his snip of my words in 1431 are his. This is bullshit.

In 1431 I was, however, guilty of elision. I left out the bolded parts from his original statement: IJ is a higher order work of literature than any literature produced by an aborigine. For this I plead mea culpa.
Your words: IJ is a higher order work of literature than any literature produced by an aborigine.

Nope, those aren't my words
Yes, they are.
-------------
OG is also continuing to misstate -- that's a kind word for it -- what I said. I never said anything like "IJ surpasses the combined cultural output of aboriginal cultures."
This is correct. You clarified your statement to proclaim that individual aborigines are incapable of what you define as "higher order works". However, your claim that OG is "continuing" to misstate you is more bullshit. He has apologized for that and tried to engage with you further.
   1435. Omineca Greg Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5639217)
OG is also continuing to misstate -- that's a kind word for it -- what I said. I never said anything like "IJ surpasses the combined cultural output of aboriginal cultures."


I've never continued anything. I had my take on it, you told me I was wrong, I said "sure, sorry, what do you mean then?", waiting for you to explain. You eventually explained, and now I know.

Concession conceded.

Anybody is free to read what you wrote, and they can decide what to think.

I'm still proud of my family, that they would read that (which is what I had them do), and that they would have the reaction they did. Next time my kids are in town, we're all going out for ice cream.
   1436. Ishmael Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5639218)
The language they use isn't rich enough for them to conceptually equal an Infinite Jest, in my opinion.

Serious question - what do you know about indigenous Australian languages?

I could see how it might be fun to compare modern speculative fiction to mythology in their use of alternative worlds to comment on reality and create and reinforce cultural archetypes. I could even see how it could be interesting to talk about encyclopaedic fiction's relationship to instrumental (in the sense of useful) works like the Songlines. Didn't Joyce say that Dublin could be reconstructed from Ulysses? I just don't get the insistence on a value judgement where your favourite novel is greater than the sum of a particular millennia old mythology and culture, with which you are apparently unfamiliar. It's almost meaningless.

Does it extend to other modern novels? Is The Recognitions greater than the Irish mythological cycles? Is The Tunnel more symbolically rich than the Greek oral-poetic tradition?

These are silly questions.
   1437. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: March 16, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5639220)
A Confederacy of Dunces > Beowulf?
   1438. Lassus Posted: March 16, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5639224)
This will be my testament, to the great years that have passed - or some of them. Here, before I hurl it into a dumpster, is one of... three or four 120-capacity cassette boxes, the only one that remains, and one that will remain no more. All mockery welcome. This had to have been 1985 - 1991 or so, and not all of them. This is good, because now I won't feel so bad about tossing them. (* = dubbed/recorded)

A Room With a View - soundtrack
A-ha - Hunting High and Low
A-ha - Stay on these Roads
A-ha - Scoundrel Days
Batman - soundtrack
Alan Parsons Project - Vulture Culture
Albinoni Adagio - classical compilation
*B-52's - B-52's/Cosmic Thing
*PDQ Bach - collection
*Black Flag - Who's Got the 10 & 1/2?, Loose Nut, 7 Seconds & Circle Jerks - Various
*Guns & Roses - Appetite for Destruction/Lies
Afrika Bambaataa and Family - The Light
The Beatles - Rock & Roll Music
The Beatles - 1962 - 1966
*The Beatles - With the Beatles/Please Please Me/Hard Day's Night
BeastieBoys - Paul's Boutique
Beethoven - Symphony #6 & Prometheus Overture (Ansermet)
*Beethoven - Missa Solemnis/Barber - Reincarnations (Bernstein)
Beethoven - Symphony #3 (Berlin Philharmonic - Bohm)
Beethoven - Symphonies #1 & #2 (Bernstein/Szell)
Beethoven - Symphony #5/Schubert Symphony #8 (Stokowski)
Beethoven - Piano Sonatas (Casadesus)
Beethoven - Cello Sonatas (Casals/Serkin)
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique (Ormandy)
*Chuck Berry & Little Richard compilation
Lost in the Stars - The Music of Kurt Weill
*Bizet - Carmen (Ozawa)
*Copland - The Tender Land (?)
*Copland - Billie the Kid & Rodeo ballets/Barber - 3 essays for Orchestra (Slatkin)
*Brahms - Ein Deutsches Requiem (Vassar College Choir - 1989)
The Blue Nile - A Walk Across the Rooftops
The Blue Nile - Hats
Bodeans - Home
Billy Bragg - Talking to the Taxman about Poetry
Brahms Symphonies #1 & #2 (Karajan)
*The Blues Project - Muddy Waters on Alligator Records
The Breakfast Club - Soundtrack
Bronski Beat - Age of Consent
*10,000 Maniacs - In My Tribe/Blind Man's Zoo
The Cars - Shake it Up
The Cars - Heartbeat City
The Cars - Greatest Hits -
Cats - soundtrack
Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman
Ray Charles - complilation
Ray Charles - Do I Ever Cross your Mind
Ray Charles - The Spirit of Christmas
Third World - Sense of Purpose
Third World - Rock the World
Echo & The Bunnymen - (some kind of 5-song EP compilation)
Echo & the Bunnymen - Songs to Learn & Sing
Echo & the Bunnymen - Crocodiles
*Rolling Stones - Exile on Main Street/various
Big Audio Dynamite - This is Big Audio Dynamite
Elvis Costello- Spike
Communards - Communards
Communards - Red
Cream - Disraeli Gears
*Cream - Wheels of Fire
Cream - Goodbye
Creedence Clearwater Revival - Chronicle
Crossover Dreams - Soundtrack
The Cure - Standing on the Beach - The Singles & Unavailable B-sides
Dangerously Close - Soundtrackj
*Depeche Mode - Speak & Spell/A Broken Frame
*Depeche Mode - Some Great Reward/People are People
Depeche Mode - Catching up with Depeche Mode
Depeche Mode - Black Celebration
Devo - Shout
The Dream Syndicate - Medicine Show
The Dream Syndicate - Out of the Grey
The Dream Syndicate - This is not the New Dream Syndicate Album
Duran Duran - Rio
Duran Duran - Arena
Thompson Twins - Here's to Future Days
Elgar - Enigma Variations (Ormandy)
*Erasure - Two Ring Circus
Chess - Cast Recording (British version)
EU Live - Two Places at the Same Time
*Faure & Mozart Requiems (unknown)
Faure Requiem/Pelleas & Melisande (Dutoit)
Fela Anikulapo Kuti - Teacher Don't Teach me Nonsense
The Mission U.K - Children
Fishbone - It's a Wonderful Life (Gonna Have a Good Time) EP
Disney - For our Children Pediatric AIDS compilation
*Frankie Goes to Hollywood - Welcome to the Pleasuredome
General Public - Hand to Mouth
Gen X - Kiss me Deadly
The Georgia Satellites - Open all Night
Gipsy Kings - Mosaique
*Philip Glass - Koyannisqatsi/George Winston - December
The Gospel at Colonus - Cast Recording
Hall & Oates - Voices
Ranking Rodger - Radical Departure
*Haydn - Missa in Tempore Belli/Nelson Mass - (Rossi - 1955)
John Hiatt - Bring the Family
Bobby McFerrin - Simple Pleasures/Bring the Family
The Housemartins - London O Hull 4
The Housemartins - The People who Grinned Themselves to Death
The Human League - Fascination
the Hujman League - Hysteria
Johnny Clegg & Savuka - Shadow Man
Billy Idol - Billy Idol
Billy Idol - Don't Stop
The Ink Spots - Compilation
The Ink Spots - The best of
The Ink Spots - Greatest Hits
The Ink Spots - Compilation
Jesse Johnson - Shockadelica
INXS - What You Need
INXS - The Swing
Simple Minds - Live in the City of Light
*U2 - Boy/Wide Awake in America/Live at Red Rocks



   1439. Lassus Posted: March 16, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5639225)
A Confederacy of Dunces > Beowulf?

Drunks are only entertaining to other drunks.
   1440. PreservedFish Posted: March 16, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5639226)
Communicating and creating narratives and ideas about humans, human cultures, and the human condition that are light years more advanced than anything the Australian bushman could ever conceive??


Is this a comment on DFW's singular brilliance? Or is it a "standing on the shoulders of giants" sort of thing, and any number of Western thinkers have also produced insights that are out of reach of the unwashed heathens?
   1441. Omineca Greg Posted: March 16, 2018 at 08:31 PM (#5639227)
I actually knew a guy from Camden Town** whose hair was curly but he gelled it down, so at least one of those has special meaning to me.

**OK, he was actually from Belsize Park, but c'mon, close enough!
   1442. BDC Posted: March 16, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5639233)
OK, I read the piece by Joe Henrich (#1410) and it makes interesting claims about a kind of feedback loop between culture and (speculatively at least) the biology of human cognition. I don’t see much racialist implication, though. That humans evolved as social animals is uncontroversial. He’s not claiming that the white westerner evolved a better culture than the Pacific islander or anything. That I noticed, at least.

Near as I can tell, Morty, you object to the idea that humans are detached from their biology & infinitely plastic in their behavior; but I think that few people see humanity on those terms anymore. Maybe some arch social-constructionists persist, but more people agree with you (on some basic points) than you perhaps suspect.
   1443. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5639235)
And groups of people will differ. That follows as the dawn the night. As genome testing has shown.

And culture comes ultimately from biology. It doesn't come from nothing.
   1444. BDC Posted: March 16, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5639236)
The language they use isn't rich enough for them to conceptually equal an Infinite Jest

Some languages have larger vocabularies than others, for sure. They are used to describe more things. But if your contention is that an English speaker could easily master the nuances of expression in one of these smaller-vocabulary languages, all I can say is that linguists & ethnographers don’t empirically find that.

A couple of writers named Everett, Dan and his son Caleb, are the leading exponents of the idea that different languages can be deeply different & correspond to deep cultural differences. They are contrarians in a field defined by Chomskyan universalism. But even the Everetts see the odd languages they study as hellaciously complicated.
   1445. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5639241)

Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke is coming under criticism after he responded with a "flippant" comment to a congresswoman's story about her grandfathers' detention in internment camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II.

Rep. Colleen Hanabusa discussed two of her grandfathers' detention to the Interior Secretary during a hearing on Thursday. She said her grandfathers did not speak about their experiences until late in their life. The Hawaii Democrat sought Zinke's assurance that $2 million in grant money to maintain the infamous historic sites would be preserved in his budget.

"I believe that it is essential that we as a nation recognize our darkest moments so that we don't have them repeat again," she said.

"Konnichiwa," Zinke said in response to Hanabusa's testimony, using the Japanese word for "good day" or "good afternoon."

A person sitting in the hearing appeared to gasp at the remark.

Hanabusa responded by saying, "I think it's still 'ohayo gozaimasu' (good morning), but that's OK." Her office did not immediately return a CNN request for comment.


CNN

C'mon snowflakes, I'd say that was mighty white of him ... by replying in her native sing-song, ching-chong, he was obviously signalling how sympathetic he was to the issue she had raised ...
   1446. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5639244)
Does it really matter if the US is more powerful than Denmark?

Neither Denmark, Western Europe, nor the United States would exist as we now know them absent U.S. military strength. Those Soviet/Russian tanks didn't stay put because they fear the Danes or care about international opinion.
   1447. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:16 PM (#5639245)

Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke is coming under criticism after he responded with a "flippant" comment to a congresswoman's story about her grandfathers' detention in internment camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II.


Is there anyone in this administration who isn’t a classless boor?

Is this a big deal? No. But c’mon.
   1448. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5639246)
U.S. consumer confidence hits 14-year high.
   1449. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5639247)
Neither Denmark, Western Europe, nor the United States would exist as we now know them absent U.S. militarily strength. Those Soviet/Russian tanks didn't stay put because they fear the Danes or care about international opinion.


Harvey Manfranjenson ... is that really you?

   1450. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5639248)

And culture comes ultimately from biology. It doesn't come from nothing.
Well, we know that in the ages old nature vs. nurture debate, Morty comes down on the side of making #### up.
   1451. tshipman Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5639249)
Neither Denmark, Western Europe, nor the United States would exist as we now know them absent U.S. military strength. Those Soviet/Russian tanks didn't stay put because they fear the Danes or care about international opinion.


This is really questionable. They don't speak Russian in Finland, for instance.

***

One of the many lame things about this whole discussion on culture is that "Western Civilization" gets amalgamated into one thing. That's bogus and totally ahistorical!

Only because white Americans think of ourselves as being "western" is it a thing. If you want to argue about relative contributions to the world, you really have to argue about tribes or ethnic groups, not nation states. If you want to argue Han vs. Gauls, knock yourselves out, but arguing about "Chinese" vs. "French" (or worse, "Western") is really talking about concepts that are less than 200 years old.
   1452. Morty Causa Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5639253)
   1453. Greg K Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5639254)
And groups of people will differ. That follows as the dawn the night. As genome testing has shown.

And culture comes ultimately from biology. It doesn't come from nothing.

I was reading the article you posted as saying that sometimes biology comes from culture too.
   1454. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 16, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5639256)
From an undisclosed overseas location, BBTF-OTP's man of international mystery has suggested that this link is worthy of our consideration, and that certainly seems to be the case - Strzok & Page Attempted To Use Social Relationship To Influence Flynn Judge:
The text messages about Contreras between controversial Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) lawyer Lisa Page and Peter Strzok, the senior FBI counterintelligence official who was kicked off Robert Mueller’s special counsel team, were deliberately hidden from Congress, multiple congressional investigators told The Federalist. In the messages, Page and Strzok, who are rumored to have been engaged in an illicit romantic affair, discussed Strzok’s personal friendship with Contreras and how to leverage that relationship in ongoing counterintelligence matters.

“Rudy is on the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court]!” Page excitedly texted Strzok on July 25, 2016. “Did you know that? Just appointed two months ago.”

“I did,” Strzok responded. “I need to get together with him.”

“[He] said he’d gotten on a month or two ago at a graduation party we were both at.”
. . .
The pair even schemed about how to set up a cocktail or dinner party just so Contreras, Strzok, and Page could speak without arousing suspicion that they were colluding. Strzok expressed concern that a one-on-one meeting between the two men might require Contreras’ recusal from matters in which Strzok was involved.

“[REDACTED] suggested a social setting with others would probably be better than a one on one meeting,” Strzok told Page. “I’m sorry, I’m just going to have to invite you to that cocktail party.”

“Have to come up with some other work people cover for action,” Strzok added.

“Why more?” Page responded. “Six is a perfectly fine dinner party.”

It's unclear whether Judge Contreras did anything inappropriate, but Strzok & Page appear to have attempted to do so. Contreras' recusal seems highly likely to be tied to the actions of Strozok & Page. One can only hope that the DoJ IG report sheds more light here.
   1455. tshipman Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5639259)
Oh man, out of context quotes about completely irrelevant figures posted in the Federalist transparently posted to distract from the news of the day?

That's a Clappy special!
   1456. zenbitz Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5639261)
And groups of people will differ. That follows as the dawn the night. As genome testing has shown.


You're so obtuse, Morty. That doesn't mean that what groups of people will do is immutable. It's barely even predictable.
   1457. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5639263)
Tshipman seems to think that documentary evidence of an illegal ex parte attempt to influence a federal judge can just be hand-waved away. Unfortunately for him, Strzok & Page, that seems unlikely. Let's see what the DoJ IG says, eh?
   1458. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5639264)
Surprised Clapper or JE didn't get here first, but ...


Attorney General Jeff Sessions fired former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe late Friday, less than two days shy of his retirement, ending the career of an official who had risen to serve as second-in-command at the bureau.

McCabe had more recently been regularly taunted by President Donald Trump and besieged by accusations that he had misled internal investigators at the Justice Department.

McCabe had been expected to retire this Sunday, on his 50th birthday, when he would have become eligible to receive early retirement benefits.

But Friday's termination could place a portion of his anticipated pension, earned after more than two decades of service, in significant jeopardy.

...

The origin of his dramatic fall stems from an internal review conducted by Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz. That report -- the details of which have not been publicly released -- is said to conclude that McCabe misled investigators about his role in directing other officials at the FBI to speak to The Wall Street Journal about his involvement in a public corruption investigation into the Clinton Foundation, according to a source briefed on it.

CNN reported on Wednesday that the findings in Horowitz's report on McCabe were referred to the FBI's Office of Professional Responsibility, staffed with career officials, who recommended McCabe's termination. McCabe, accompanied by his lawyer, tried making a last-ditch effort Thursday to avoid the firing, meeting with officials at the deputy attorney general's office at the Justice Department for several hours while Sessions was traveling, but to no avail.


CNN
   1459. tshipman Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5639276)
Tshipman seems to think that documentary evidence of an illegal ex parte attempt to influence a federal judge can just be hand-waved away.




Nope. I think the track record of RW media in distorting quotes and creating nothingburgers is unparalleled, and justifies mockery of the latest shiny object.
   1460. tshipman Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:41 PM (#5639279)
McCabe went nuclear in his public statement responding:

Here is the reality: I am being singled out and treated this way because of the role I played, the actions I took, and the events I witnessed in the aftermath of the firing of James Comey. The release of this report was accelerated only after my testimony to the House Intelligence Committee revealed that I would corroborate former Director Comey's accounts of his discussions with the President. The OIG's focus on me and this report became a part of an unprecedented effort by the Administration, driven by the President himself, to remove me from my position, destroy my reputation, and possibly strip me of a pension that I worked 21 years to earn. The accelerated release of the report, and the punitive actions taken in response, make sense only when viewed through this lens. Thursday's comments from the White House are just the latest example of this.

This attack on my credibility is one part of a larger effort not just to slander me personally, but to tain the FBI, law enforcement, and intelligence professionals more generally. It is part of this Administration's ongoing war on the FBI and the efforts of the Special Counsel investigation, which continue to this day. Their persistence in this campaign only highlights the importance of the Special Counsel's work.

   1461. Shredder Posted: March 16, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5639280)
Discovery in the suit McCabe is about to file is gonna be delicious.
   1462. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5639286)
The OIG's focus on me and this report became a part of an unprecedented effort by the Administration, driven by the President himself, to remove me from my position, destroy my reputation, and possibly strip me of a pension that I worked 21 years to earn.

The DoJ Inspector General, Michael Horowitz, is an Obama appointee. All indications are that career officials recommended that McCabe be fired because he lied to investigators. The irony of some here rushing to his defense is highly amusing.
   1463. spanx for the memories Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:07 AM (#5639289)
   1464. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:28 AM (#5639298)
Just to recap, Democrats loudly demanded that the DoJ IG investigate the agency's actions during the 2016 campaign, contending that they were unfair to Hillary Clinton. So far, the known casualties of that investigation appear to be McCabe, Strzok & Page - all Clintonites. Heh.
   1465. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:31 AM (#5639300)
All indications are that career officials recommended that McCabe be fired because he lied to investigators. The irony of some here rushing to his defense is highly amusing.

There's also irony in rushing to fire him based on "indications." The sole point of that rush was to deprive McCabe of his pension, so it's also ironic that his fellow retired federal government bureaucrat, hanging out in Florida last I heard, is amused by the situation.
   1466. Shredder Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:34 AM (#5639303)
There's also irony in rushing to fire him based on "indications." The sole point of that rush was to deprive McCabe of his pension, so it's also ironic that his fellow retired federal government bureaucrat, hanging out in Florida last I heard, is amused by the situation.
There's also the irony of being fired for lying to investigators by Bilbo Bigot, someone who lied to Congress, yet still has his job. Of course, when your tongue is permanently affixed to Trump's taint, like Clapper's for example, you don't need things like "underlying evidence". You'll gladly swallow whatever comes along from either direction.
   1467. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:44 AM (#5639305)
Bilbo Bigot

I prefer the bigoted Keebler elf.

Some reasonable people on Twitter seem to think Sessions was going to be fired if he didn't fire McCabe before Pension Day^1. So the other irony here is that firing McCabe makes it more likely Mueller pushes further ahead and Trump gets impeached.

^1: Either the reporting on FBI pensions is atrocious or the vesting schedule for FBI pensions is atrocious. I'm guessing it's the former, because it seems unbelievable that one day of service is the difference between $0 of benefits and hundreds of thousands of dollars in benefits. Maybe everybody conspired on the reporting so Trump would have his obvious target.
   1468. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:44 AM (#5639306)
There's also irony in rushing to fire him based on "indications." The sole point of that rush was to deprive McCabe of his pension, so it's also ironic that his fellow retired federal government bureaucrat, hanging out in Florida last I heard, is amused by the situation.

Federal employees aren't supposed to be able to avoid disciplinary action by retiring. If there were grounds to remove McCabe, and it looks like the IG and career FBI officials thought there were, they would have been derelict in their duty to delay acting just to allow him to retire. Those interested in the matter should also note that FBI agents do not have the normal protections common to civil service employees. McCabe's only semi-plausible claim will likely be some sort of Constitutional challenge, a long shot at best.
   1469. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:49 AM (#5639308)
If there were grounds to remove McCabe, and it looks like the IG and career FBI officials thought so, they would have been derelict in their duty to delay acting just allow him to retire.

I'm not attacking the IG and others, since they may well know something they haven't shared. I'm attacking you for being a hack -- your "indications" are the same rush to judgment that you so passively-aggressively attacked.
   1470. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:58 AM (#5639310)
I'm not attacking the IG and others, since they may well know something they haven't shared. I'm attacking you for being a hack -- your "indications" are the same rush to judgment that you so passively-aggressively attacked.

My "indications" are presuming that the DoJ IG, an Obama appointee, and career FBI officials involved in the disciplinary process, wouldn't just make stuff up. There are limits on what can be divulged at this point, but I doubt they would move against a departing high level official without a strong case.
   1471. Stormy JE Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:02 AM (#5639324)
Shorter shipman and greenback: “WE ARE ALL NUTTERS NOW.”

EDIT: Boom.
   1472. Lassus Posted: March 17, 2018 at 04:52 AM (#5639328)
Shorter JE and Clapper: "EVERYTHING IS COMPLETELY NORMAL."
   1473. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 07:35 AM (#5639330)
The Federalist is as awful as always.
Strzok & Page Attempted To Use Social Relationship To Influence Flynn Judge:
Lie. No text says anything about influencing him. And of course he wasn't a "Flynn Judge" at the time of the texts.

Page and Strzok, who are rumored to have been engaged in an illicit romantic affair, discussed Strzok’s personal friendship with Contreras and how to leverage that relationship in ongoing counterintelligence matters.
No, they didn't. They didn't say one word about "leveraging that relationship in ongoing counterintelligence matters." These are all fabrications. In fact, they pretty much said exactly the opposite.

The pair even schemed about how to set up a cocktail or dinner party just so Contreras, Strzok, and Page could speak without arousing suspicion that they were colluding. Strzok expressed concern that a one-on-one meeting between the two men might require Contreras’ recusal from matters in which Strzok was involved.
Whether they "schemed" about it or were joking about it is unclear, but this is dishonest spin. They were trying to avoid a situation in which Contreras would have to recuse himself, so they didn't want to create any appearance of impropriety. (If they were actually colluding, they didn't need to set up any meetings at all. There is, I hear, such a thing as a telephone.)

It's unclear whether Judge Contreras did anything inappropriate,
I suppose that's technically true, in the same way that it's "unclear" whether you molest children: there's no evidence whatsoever for it, but since we don't have any evidence to the contrary, it could be true.
but Strzok & Page appear to have attempted to do so.
No, they don't. Nothing at all suggests that they did or attempted to do anything improper.

FTA:
The judge, Rudolph Contreras, was recused from handling the case
Misleading. The correct way to say it is "recused himself," but that doesn't sound as sinister, so they rephrased it to make it sound as if someone ordered him off the case.
   1474. Lassus Posted: March 17, 2018 at 07:37 AM (#5639331)
The Federalist is as awful as always.

The recent article on the hellhole of San Francisco is certainly a read.
   1475. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 07:41 AM (#5639332)

Tshipman seems to think that documentary evidence of an illegal ex parte attempt to influence a federal judge can just be hand-waved away.
I like how you piled multiple unnecessary adjectives in there. "Illegal," "ex parte" and "influence" are redundant.

But of course there is no documentary evidence of anything illegal, anything ex parte, or any attempt to influence anyone.
   1476. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 07:46 AM (#5639333)

Just to recap, Democrats loudly demanded that the DoJ IG investigate the agency's actions during the 2016 campaign, contending that they were unfair to Hillary Clinton. So far, the known casualties of that investigation appear to be McCabe, Strzok & Page - all Clintonites. Heh.
None of them are "Clintonites."
   1477. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 17, 2018 at 08:54 AM (#5639338)
My "indications" are presuming that the DoJ IG, an Obama appointee, and career FBI officials involved in the disciplinary process, wouldn't just make stuff up.

So are you assuming that Comey, a life long Republican, wouldn't just be making stuff up about his meeting with Trump?
   1478. BDC Posted: March 17, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5639339)
I doubt they would move against a departing high level official without a strong case

And this case just happened to reach critical mass two days before the guy could retire? Interesting timing.
   1479. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 17, 2018 at 09:25 AM (#5639340)
Just a thought: While it's little consolation to McCabe right now, in the long run it's hard to think of a much better line to add to his resume than being one of Donald Trump's prime targets. He might even be able to make more from his speaking fees than he would have gotten from his pension, and if he chooses to take advantage of that, who's going to blame him?
   1480. spycake Posted: March 17, 2018 at 10:13 AM (#5639344)
The judge, Rudolph Contreras, was recused from handling the case


I wonder if Judge Contreras limits bench visits while he is presiding?
   1481. spycake Posted: March 17, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5639345)
None of them are "Clintonites."

They haven't taken the Trump Loyalty Oath, which is close enough for some.
   1482. Zonk is One Individual Posted: March 17, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5639348)
I doubt they would move against a departing high level official without a strong case


Because facts have always been a big deal to this administration?

Because they're so by-the-book?

Because they have built such a wealth of integrity and honesty?

Because acting on grudges would be so out of character?

   1483. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: March 17, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5639352)
The recent article on the hellhole of San Francisco is certainly a read.
I'd heard about that and was wondering if I read the correct article. The "shocking" anecdotes are pretty tame for SF (maybe I've just been in the area too long), there's no investigation whatsoever, and the only analysis seems to be "because liberals". Is there a longer version somewhere? Or is this just the extent of what you get from the Federalist?
   1484. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: March 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5639361)
Wow, they found the female version of Ray to write that drivel. Yea, SF is a liberal ######## (so is Seattle don't move here!), good one.

One wonders how much of NYC the snowflake saw if she is so offended by the trash and urine smell. I mean, didn't she take the subway, like ever? And of course NYC during her time? Deblasio's.

   1485. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5639362)
JFC, why does anyone use Facebook?
   1486. PreservedFish Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5639365)
I left the Bay Area a few years ago and I've heard that the income disparity in SF has only gotten worse and worse. When I was there, basically everyone I knew was leaving or had left for Oakland (where I lived), or maybe Los Angeles or Portland OR. Huge influx of wealthy young tech dorks. Hipsters getting pushed out, Central Americans getting pushed out. At the same time, there are apparently more homeless than ever before. I have nothing against that young moneyed Silicon Valley class, and in theory I am glad that some cities are considered safe harbor for the homeless, but when each trend is pushed to an extreme level you get a bizarre and unhealthy situation.
   1487. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 17, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5639375)
Using the rule of thumb that you shouldn't be paying more than 25% of your income on housing, Joe Dimaggio would've had a tough time buying a house in San Francisco today on his $8500 rookie year salary, which would be ~$154,500 in 2018 dollars.
   1488. Morty Causa Posted: March 17, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5639377)
I don't think Joe would be making $154,500 if he were a rookie today.
   1489. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5639379)

JFC, why does anyone use Facebook?
Clickbait headline. There was no data breach.
   1490. tshipman Posted: March 17, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5639380)
I'd heard about that and was wondering if I read the correct article. The "shocking" anecdotes are pretty tame for SF (maybe I've just been in the area too long), there's no investigation whatsoever, and the only analysis seems to be "because liberals". Is there a longer version somewhere? Or is this just the extent of what you get from the Federalist?


She's some dumb pearl clutcher who thinks the world should cater to her. Has a car in the City, parks it on the street and whines that she has to worry about someone breaking in. It's a type for sure.

Using the rule of thumb that you shouldn't be paying more than 25% of your income on housing, Joe Dimaggio would've had a tough time buying a house in San Francisco today on his $8500 rookie year salary, which would be ~$154,500 in 2018 dollars.


Who the hell uses a 25% rule? This is why young people resent baby boomers.
   1491. Greg K Posted: March 17, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5639382)
Yeah, let me think...

Right now I'm spending about 1/3 of my income on rent.

Last year it was 1/7 (that was a good year!)

Year before that my rent was about 75% of my income. That was a less fun year.
   1492. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: March 17, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5639388)
My mortgage happens to be right at 25 percent of my take-home income, I just calculated. It'd be less than that if I weren't maxing out on medical flexible spending account withholdings & paying a fairly large payroll deduction for charity contributions (because I'm an amorphous lefty blob ... & also because I'm hoping to scrape over the itemized deduction threshold, I suppose for purely psychological reasons).
   1493. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5639392)
Clickbait headline. There was no data breach.

That relies on a nice, technical definition of "data breach", counselor. Maybe that legalism keeps Nix and Milner out of a British dungeon, but as far as Facebook users are concerned, I would not want to hang my hat on the difference between "data breach" and "abuse of massive volumes of data."

Facebook is in the difficult position of having known what Cambridge was doing, but never bothering to announce it until a couple of journalists pushed them on the matter. And when it became clear the story was going public, Facebook tried to cover its backside by suspending Cambridge and its affiliates (the affiliate chain sure seems like it was built as some sort of legal risk management tactic). Facebook is a shitty custodian of your data, and they will do their best to hide from accountability when they screw up.
   1494. greenback slays lewks Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5639393)
Who the hell uses a 25% rule? This is why young people resent baby boomers.

Shouldn't they hate the rentiers and their government flacks who won't let California businesses build housing that costs less than 25% of their income? I guess that would explain the housing problem in paradise.
   1495. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5639396)
I don't think Joe would be making $154,500 if he were a rookie today.


Hooray for unions!
   1496. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5639397)
Using the rule of thumb that you shouldn't be paying more than 25% of your income on housing, Joe Dimaggio would've had a tough time buying a house in San Francisco today on his $8500 rookie year salary, which would be ~$154,500 in 2018 dollars.

Who the hell uses a 25% rule? This is why young people resent baby boomers.


I'm not a baby boomer, but that generation didn't invent the law of supply and demand. I'm not sure why any sane person would want to spend $4000 a month to live in a one bedroom apartment just because it's in a oh-so-hip neighborhood that nobody wanted to go within a mile of 20 or 30 years ago, but the existence of that stupid demand is what broke the 25% rule of thumb.

As is usually the case in the housing market, the people with virtually unlimited income are setting the market for everyone else. Whenever you hear talk of new housing going up in cities, it's always about "luxury apartments"**, and never about housing that anyone on a median income could afford using that 25% standard. The truth is that this generation's politicians, whatever their nominal party and whatever their public position, mostly just want low income people to disappear, at least if you judge them by their actions rather than by their words.

And what we've wound up with is this:

----Fabulous mansions and condos for the upper 1% or maybe the upper 10%, depending on the city

----Easily affordable houses for those lucky enough to have inherited them from parents or grandparents who bought them for prices that were a small fraction of what the market would charge them today

----Somewhat affordable lesser quarters for those in the upper middle class, but they've either got to accept paying a higher percentage of their income than they'd like, or accept a less than ideal amount of square footage.

[Pause to note that the real estate pages of our great metropolitan newspapers effectively cut off all news and offers of housing opportunities at this point]

----Tiny to small apartments for those with a middle class income who don't want to waive the 25% rule of thumb

----Tiny to small apartments for those with a less than middle class income who are basically told "take it or leave it" if they want to live in the city

And for the rest? It's either get on the waiting list for public housing, or just get the hell out of town.

I suppose this is the best of all possible worlds.

** A realtors' term, not mine. It's one that can be used to describe anything from a McMansion to a studio apartment with newly installed appliances and a granite kitchen counter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who the hell uses a 25% rule? This is why young people resent baby boomers.

Shouldn't they hate the rentiers and their government flacks who won't let California businesses build housing that costs less than 25% of their income? I guess that would explain the housing problem in paradise.

Wake me up the next time you see any real estate developer in any major city, particularly on the East or West Coast, propose building houses or apartments with annual costs that average 25% of the median income. It's not always the government's fault, even if it often acts as enablers. There's just too much money to be made in the upper end market, and too little money and too much perceived risk below that.

   1497. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5639399)

That relies on a nice, technical definition of "data breach", counselor.
Technical? I think most people would understand a data breach to involve someone hacking into Facebook, not Facebook providing data to a third party and said third party reselling it in violation of their agreement with Facebook.
   1498. tshipman Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5639401)
Shouldn't they hate the rentiers and their government flacks who won't let California businesses build housing that costs less than 25% of their income? I guess that would explain the housing problem in paradise.


California housing costs have many boogeymen.

1. Prop 13 causing housing taxes to be fixed at the time of sale has been shown to increase prices and drive purchasing preferences to higher cost properties.
2. Homeowners having an outsized role in forming housing policy resulting in single-family homes becoming a "default" both in fact and in law.
3. NIMBY property owners having way too much ability to slow/prevent construction.
4. Historic regulations on building height that are anchored on populations and building construction techniques from 100 years ago.

Rentiers are not really part of the problem in any significant way.
   1499. zenbitz Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5639402)
San Francisco is inching its way to Manhattan level rent and driving aggrevation, without the public transit.


Still, it's my hometown. I do think that (tech and white collar biz) salaries in the bay area are waaaaay to high. Some weird confluence of massive venture capital and competition.
   1500. Morty Causa Posted: March 17, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5639405)
To quote a signature California band, "How it every got this crazy?"
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