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Monday, November 13, 2017

OTP 13 November 2017: Politics, race now touching every sport

Like legions of Giants fans who hate the Los Angeles Dodgers, Le rooted for the Houston Astros to beat them in the World Series. But he changed his mind, swallowed hard and began cheering for the Dodgers after Yuri Gurriel, a Cuban-born Astro, hit a home run against Japanese pitcher Yu Darvish then was caught on camera pulling the corners of his eyes with his fingers in a racist gesture.

“I couldn’t really be OK with them winning any longer,” Le said of the Astros.

With Gurriel’s gesture, yet another major sporting event in the United States came to be viewed through a prism of race, politics or both.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:05 AM | 1998 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, dodgers, politics, world series

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   101. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5575257)
98...she did leave you, though. And you live alone.
   102. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5575260)
Clinton/the DNC paid Fusion GPS. Not "a foreign national."

I don't know why that is an important distinction. Does anyone really believe that the Clinton campaign weren't sophisticated consumers who knew exactly what they were buying from Mark Elias & Fusion GPS?


David apparently does. He has suddenly become Captain Naive.
   103. zack Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5575261)
My position is you shouldn't run someone out of town on a rail based upon the mediated story of one person's memory from 38 years ago.

Wait, last page we were tar and feathering him, now it's rails? What the #### am I gonna do with all these feathers.
   104. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5575262)
"Mediated". "Memory". Just shut up.
   105. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5575265)
From snopes:
Claim: An ex-congressman who had sex with a subordinate won clemency from a president who had sex with a subordinate, then was hired by a clergyman who had sex with a subordinate.
TRUE



Hey, don't knock being a sexual subordinate until you've tried it!

I mean, don't knock being a sexual subordinate until you've tried it, sir.
   106. dlf Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5575266)
The precedents appear to call for seating a Senator and then conducting an Ethics Committee investigation, not refusing to recognize the election results ...


It's Alabama. Political shenanigans provide plenty of precedent for just about anything you'd want. One not too outdated precedent was a gubernatorial election to succeed George Wallace ~30 years ago when the Courts decided that one party's nominee couldn't be that party's nominee and mandated either a runoff or the anointing of the person who finished second; the D's just decided to screw the will of the voters and name the #2. The Baxley - Graddick primary and eventual court battle resulted in the election of Guy Hunt, the first R Governor in Alabama since reconstruction -- and eventually that Governor's removal from office on corruption charges. Heck, between Guy Hunt, Don Seigelman and Robert Bentley, that is three Alabama Governors in the last three decades to have ended their careers(*) with criminal convictions stemming from their time in office.

(*)The middle of the three lost a re-election bid, then was convicted, the other two plead out and resigned.
   107. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5575267)
Judicial nominee Talley failed to disclose that he is married to the Chief of Staff for Trump’s White House counsel.


Is this a common thing, among those applying for positions in the three branches? I mean, does EVERYONE just ignore the questions they don't like on employment questionnaires when they apply for DC/government jobs?
How many is that now in just the Trump administration alone that have left off important information from their official questionnaires?
   108. Lassus Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5575268)
I'd consider voting GOP over Cuomo if it comes to that, that horse's ass.
   109. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5575270)
My position is you shouldn't run someone out of town on a rail based upon the mediated story of one person's memory from 38 years ago. Not that his alleged behavior is acceptable.


There's a lot of space between "run out of town on a rail" and "not elect as your senator". And we're not talking about one person's memory, but several people's memory which don't depend in a detailed way for the actions to be a problem. And, of course, he's responded extensively without denying the events in question.

If your wife said you beat her, and several other ex-girlfriends came forward to say you'd been rough and threatening in a way that doesn't quite reach a criminal level, and your response is to say "Hey, what's wrong with beating your wife, anyhow?" - well, any sensible woman would be well advised to not hook up with you.
   110. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5575271)
They can, however, expel him after he has been seated.


So what are the precedents on being expelled from the Senate by the rest of the Senate?
   111. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5575272)
Judicial nominee Talley failed to disclose that he is married to the Chief of Staff for Trump’s White House counsel.
By the way, I looked into this guy. His resume is shorter than I'd like, and yes I'd like to see trial experience, but the talking point that he has only been a lawyer for three years is complete garbage. It ignores the years he spent clerking for federal judges.
   112. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5575273)
I'd consider voting GOP over Cuomo if it comes to that, that horse's ass.


Ugh. That would be terrible. I don't want that choice. Why do New Yorkers keep that bozo around? Is there some quality there I am missing?
   113. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5575275)

So what are the precedents on being expelled from the Senate by the rest of the Senate?
I don't think there have been any expulsions since the civil war, but there have been those who have resigned to avoid the possibility. I think the most recent was Bob Packwood.
   114. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5575276)
. . . that is three Alabama Governors in the last three decades to have ended their careers(*) with criminal convictions stemming from their time in office.

Illinois has that beat.
   115. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5575279)
Illinois has that beat.
...this week.

(I kid. No Illinois governor has been to jail since Blagojevich in 2010, I think.)
   116. Satan Says Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5575284)
Wait, last page we were tar and feathering him, now it's rails? What the #### am I gonna do with all these feathers.

First one, then the other.
   117. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5575285)
By the way, I looked into this guy [federal judge nominee Talley]. His resume is shorter than I'd like, and yes I'd like to see trial experience


Unfortunately, there was no other living candidate who surpassed one or both of those formidable hurdles. Anyway, the only thing worth caring about is the confirmation pace.
   118. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5575286)
Now, see, this is what an ad hominem argument looks like. In response to Gloria Allred bringing forth a new accuser (but before Allred released any details):
The Moore campaign issued its response at 1:28 p.m. in an emailed statement to reporters.

"Gloria Allred is a sensationalist leading a witch hunt, and she is only around to create a spectacle," said the statement, attributed to Moore campaign chair Bill Armistead. "Allred was the attorney who claims credit for giving us Roe v. Wade which has resulted in the murder of tens of millions of unborn babies."



EDIT: Moore supposedly signed her high school yearbook.
   119. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5575288)
So what are the precedents on being expelled from the Senate by the rest of the Senate?
here's a list:

United States Senate Expulsion Cases

Based on those, it doesn't look like there is precedent for an expulsion based on the sexual assault complaints. But you might be able to get him on "support of the Confederacy" based on some of the stupid comments he's made.
   120. Lassus Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5575290)
Is there some quality there I am missing?

Father had more goodwill than anyone in recent memory, or possibly anyone ever in NY politics. That, and he's been generally effective with the Dem platform, despite being as likeable as a wasp's sting. And New York likes grumpy fighters like Spitzer and Weiner, but they couldn't help fucking it irretrievably up so all we're left with is this asshole.
   121. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5575291)
I think the most recent was Bob Packwood.

Excerpts from Senator Packwood's diary:
Came to the office and got most of the work done that I had to do. Went down and used the hot tub for 20 minutes. I had already showered and shaved. I came out and I tried something. I just blew my hair. I didn't use any gel on it at all. I just blew it until it was about dry, combed it, and if it didn't come out looking just right. It had just the right amount of bounce to it and wave to it. I came back rather confident.
   122. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5575293)
All you need to do if you’re Cuomo is smile,


Perhaps Cuomo was just having an off-day


This is Andy Cuomo you're talking about. The next time he cracks a real smile will be his first.


And Lassus nails it in 120. Super Mario still has loooong coattails.
   123. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5575295)

By the way, guys, play this out: Moore exits race. Jeff Sessions decides he isn't having fun in Trump's WH, and decides to seek the seat again. With Sessions stepping down, Trump appoints new AG. This new AG no longer has to recuse himself from RussiaRussia investigation. (Sessions recused because he had lied about his contacts with Russians during the campaign.) New AG not having recused himself, he can fire Mueller.
   124. Blastin Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5575297)
And it helps that the people who he ran against were, you know, Jimmy McMillan and, later, Carl Paladino, and other goobers like that. Hell, I could have won those elections.
   125. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5575299)
#123 that is probably close to a best-case scenario for D's. Assuming that the Russia thing really is a nothing-burger.

I don't think it works mechanically, though, since it's too late for Sessions to get on the ballot. Does he run a write-in campaign?
   126. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5575301)
The yearbook is inscribed "Love, Roy Moore."

To be fair, Moore was only 30 then, so it's totally less creepy.
   127. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:27 PM (#5575302)


I don't think it works mechanically, though, since it's too late for Sessions to get on the ballot. Does he run a write-in campaign?
Yes, or alternatively the governor postpones the election to allow him to get on the ballot.
   128. simon bedford Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5575303)
Hey BDC
sorry I was AFK for a bit
two things, Matthew only adds the "in spirit" so it probably exists only in his head
translating "Markarios" into "blessed" works if you are a Shakespearean actor, if you are a modern reader trying to figure out what it is trying to say? not so much, "well done" or "congratulations" are clearer ways of translating it.
Translating "ptochoi" as poor is simply incorrect and wrong, the ancient greek have a word for "poor" and it is "penia" , the difference between "ptochoi" and "penia" are actually written about at length by Aristophines so we know without a doubt that one term means "homeless" or "destitute" while the other means "poor".
So "blessed are the poor" ( with spirit added in matthew but not in luke or thomas) is at best a misleading translation. "well done , homeless, the kingdom of heaven is yours" is a more correct modern translation capturing the actual meaning of the words used.
   129. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5575304)
By the way, guys, play this out: Moore exits race. Jeff Sessions decides he isn't having fun in Trump's WH, and decides to seek the seat again. With Sessions stepping down, Trump appoints new AG. This new AG no longer has to recuse himself from RussiaRussia investigation. (Sessions recused because he had lied about his contacts with Russians during the campaign.) New AG not having recused himself, he can fire Mueller.


Or Rosenstein could just fire the witch hunter he hired.

Really though I'm eager to see Mueller's investigation play out. While it's not a good look on the US to investigate the campaign that won the election for the noncrime of doing so, on the other hand we're likely to see more and more seat squirming and twister playing from the TDSers as more and more information comes out on just what the Hillary campaign was up to all the while.
   130. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5575306)

As stubborn as Moore and the Alabama Republicans are, this has got to be beyond a tipping point here. Cory Gardner, who heads the NRSC, has now said that if Moore gets elected, the senate ought to expel him.
   131. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5575307)
as more and more information comes out on just what the Hillary campaign was up to all the while.
I think almost every fellow TDS here would be totally OK if neither Trump nor Clinton were allowed to continue being president.
   132. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5575308)
Reportedly, Ford, Hubble Contacts and IHOP have also pulled advertising from Sean Hannity's show.

Hannity, who saw sponsors abandon his program in response to his Seth Rich murder mythmaking, also lost a block of advertisers following his program's coverage of the Charlottesville racist jamboree, including Cadillac and Mercedes Benz. Companies like Walmart and HelloFresh said they stay away from Hannity as a general advertising strategy. Those who remember the Bill O'Reilly trajectory at Fox know that he didn't get pushed out the door because of his serial harassment, nor was he pushed out because of the cost of payouts.
   133. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5575310)
Odd behavior from a racist:

Donald Trump asks Chinese president to help in UCLA case
ESPN

President Donald Trump personally asked Chinese President Xi Jinping to help resolve the case involving three UCLA basketball players, including LiAngelo Ball, who were arrested on shoplifting charges in Hangzhou, a source confirmed to ESPN's Arash Markazi.

The White House confirmed in an email to the Washington Post, which first reported Trump's involvement, that the president brought up the issue with Xi.

Trump raised the issue during his meeting with Xi on Saturday in Beijing, the source told ESPN. Xi promised Trump that the players would be treated fairly and expeditiously, according to the Post.

Ball and fellow freshmen Cody Riley and Jalen Hill were questioned Tuesday about allegedly stealing sunglasses from a Louis Vuitton store next to the team's hotel in Hangzhou, where the Bruins had been staying before leaving for Shanghai to face Georgia Tech on Saturday. They were released on bail early Wednesday morning and have been staying at a lakeside hotel in Hangzhou since then.
   134. Lassus Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:36 PM (#5575311)
This is Andy Cuomo you're talking about. The next time he cracks a real smile will be his first.

I dunno, I can see him smiling if someone fell down and cracked their skull open, or maybe if someone got dumped in public.
   135. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5575312)
it's not a good look on the US to investigate the campaign that won the election for the noncrime of doing so


Yeah, the GOP really needs to stop investigating GOP campaigns which win the Presidency. I know how much the GOP hates having a GOP president, but still, total noncrime!
   136. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5575313)
the senate ought to expel him.


And what happens then? Is the seat vacant for the rest of the term? Does the governor nominate a replacement? Is there another special election? What happens if Moore wins that?
   137. Nero Wolfe, Indeed Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5575314)
I think almost everyone here would be totally OK if neither Trump nor Clinton were allowed to continue being president.


I'm trying to think if there was an election in my lifetime with two such personally repugnant candidates. And I don't mean due to their politics, just as human beings.
   138. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5575315)
Odd behavior from a racist:


Add "Racist" to the terms Ray doesn't understand.
   139. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5575316)

Trump on trade: "Perhaps administrations previous to me didn't like the subject, understand the subject, something was wrong because there's so many problems having to do with trade imbalance so we want to get that straightened out very quickly."
Your president, folks.
   140. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5575317)
So what are the precedents on being expelled from the Senate by the rest of the Senate?


here's a list:

United States Senate Expulsion Cases


How great is Louisiana? In 1934, both of its Senators were under investigation for election fraud at the same time.
   141. Srul Itza Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5575318)
As stubborn as Moore and the Alabama Republicans are, this has got to be beyond a tipping point here


Anywhere else in the country, maybe.

As long as they think Moore will win the election, nothing will happen. And this is Alabama -- Moore will win.

Then the Republicans will huff and puff and distance themselves-- and count his vote as Aye with every other Republican.

   142. dlf Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5575319)
It ignores the years he spent clerking for federal judges.


I'm quite proud of the two years I spent clerking for a federal judge - who just so happened to be in the same judicial district in which this young man is to sit. The clerkship provided me with a wealth of information on how I should - and equally importantly - how I shouldn't practice law. But it wasn't a substitute for actually practicing nor, a decade after I left law school, could it be the primary legal experience on which to base a subsequent lifetime appointment to the bench. This nomination is Harriet Miers writ small.
   143. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5575321)

the senate ought to expel him.

And what happens then?
The same thing that happens if he dies, or resigns to become Attorney General.
Is the seat vacant for the rest of the term? Does the governor nominate a replacement? Is there another special election? What happens if Moore wins that?
They expel him again?

Or, more likely, he runs for the Alabama Supreme Court again?
   144. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5575322)
I'm trying to think if there was an election in my lifetime with two such personally repugnant candidates. And I don't mean due to their politics, just as human beings.

Here I'll just repeat the point that was made during last year's election: The people who've known Hillary for the longest time tend to be her strongest defenders, while people who've known Trump for the longest time have tended to take him to court.
   145. Satan Says Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5575323)
In a democratic republic, you let the voters decide.

But since the press has lost most of its credibility, the voters can't be trusted to follow its narrative, so we need extra-electoral methods to remove people who have committed no crime.

The center no longer holds. Whatever was normal before is no longer. Jig is up, my friends. Hit the whiskey.
   146. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5575324)
This is Andy Cuomo you're talking about. The next time he cracks a real smile will be his first.

True, but since he's only 59, Trump beats him on that score for career value.
   147. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5575325)
I'm quite proud of the two years I spent clerking for a federal judge - who just so happened to be in the same judicial district in which this young man is to sit. The clerkship provided me with a wealth of information on how I should - and equally importantly - how I shouldn't practice law. But it wasn't a substitute for actually practicing nor, a decade after I left law school, could it be the primary legal experience on which to base a subsequent lifetime appointment to the bench. This nomination is Harriet Miers writ small.
It's roughly the same quantity of legal experience that Elena Kagan had when she was nominated to the Supreme Court.
   148. Satan Says Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5575326)
Donald Trump asks Chinese president to help in UCLA case

Good thing Trump's not a Trojan.
   149. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5575327)
Judicial nominee Talley failed to disclose that he is married to the Chief of Staff for Trump’s White House counsel.

No, that's incorrect. He's accused of not specifically mentioning her in the section (Q #24) of his Senate Judiciary Committee questionnaire that asks about potential conflicts of interest. However, his general statements on avoiding conflicts of interest would also cover any that might arise from his wife's employment, which would be extremely rare for a U.S. District Court Judge in Alabama. Some are also squawking about her not being mentioned in response to Q #26 about the process that led to his selection, but it appears that Talley's selection was initiated by Alabama's Senators - he had worked for one - and his wife played no part in his interview with the White House Counsel's Office or DoJ, so there is no reason to mention her there, either

As noted in #111, Talley's experience is a little thin, and those opposed to all District Court appointees without trial experience can fault him on that count, but he's not the first District Court nominee without trial experience. Obama had at least two, and I suspect most Presidents had that many or more. Talley has worked in all three branches of the federal government, served in state government, and has a bit of law firm experience. He's apparently a bit brighter than most, being a Harvard grad who edited a law review. If the local bar was outraged by his nomination maybe there'd be a basis for opposing him, but by all accounts they are not. That would seem to account for why the out-of-state opposition groups resort to calling him a "blogger" and distort the experience that he does have.
   150. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5575328)
Really though I'm eager to see Mueller's investigation play out. While it's not a good look on the US to investigate the campaign that won the election for the noncrime of doing so, on the other hand we're likely to see more and more seat squirming and twister playing from the TDSers as more and more information comes out on just what the Hillary campaign was up to all the while.


Surreal.

Just surreal. Maybe we should review here....

Trump oddly spends much of the primary having a bromance with Putin, but fine, fine... he likes authoritarians and he's especially prone to flattery so fine, fine.

After firing his first campaign manager, he brings on a guy that's already pretty well-known/has been out of US politics because he's been fronting for Russian puppets in the Ukraine. GOP convention folks complain that Team Trump made them change the GOP platform to adopt Russian-friendlier language regarding Ukraine.... but fine, fine - Manafort was hired because 40 years ago, he did delegate wrangling.

Multiple members of a very thin list of Trump foreign policy advisers -- including one guy (Carter Page) that had previously been recruited by Russian espionage services - let's not forget, there are two guys in jail over this, another guy (Flynn) who clearly saw some dollar signs, and yet another guy (Papadopolous) who has copped a plea... but fine, fine, nobody wanted to work for Trump so he had to take the Russian-approved dregs.

ONE goofus son is vindicating himself by releasing e-mails with a subject line "I love it!" when he's contacted by a Russian national promising Clinton dirt.

The goofus son-in-law is trying to set up 'secure communications' in the Russian embassy in such a ridiculous fashion that even the Russians themselves think it's a bit too ludicrous.

But, but, but Fusion GPS!!!!! And it's actually Trump Derangement Syndrome? Seriously?

I think we all know pretty clearly what's going on here... A dumbass prone to dumbassery was hilariously prone to Russian infiltration through a variety of guys saw that saw big dollar signs and a variety of guys that are the very definition of useful idiots.

...and this will all be used as "vindication!!!!" of Trump.

Surreal.
   151. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5575329)
Reportedly, Ford, Hubble Contacts and IHOP have also pulled advertising from Sean Hannity's show.

Hannity, who saw sponsors abandon his program in response to his Seth Rich murder mythmaking, also lost a block of advertisers following his program's coverage of the Charlottesville racist jamboree, including Cadillac and Mercedes Benz. Companies like Walmart and HelloFresh said they stay away from Hannity as a general advertising strategy. Those who remember the Bill O'Reilly trajectory at Fox know that he didn't get pushed out the door because of his serial harassment, nor was he pushed out because of the cost of payouts.


Christ, given the mental capacity of his followers, Hannity could probably raise a hundred million with a GoFundMe campaign.
   152. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:49 PM (#5575332)
remove people who have committed no crime.


If the allegation is true, and more and more senior Republicans are saying they believe it is true, he did in fact commit a crime. * It's just too late to prosecute him for it. Not getting prosecuted for a crime and not actually commiting a crime are 2 different things.

* I assume a 32 YO fondling a 14 YO is in fact a crime. If it isn't, it's the next best thing.
   153. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5575335)
Hannity, who saw sponsors abandon his program in response to his Seth Rich murder mythmaking, also lost a block of advertisers following his program's coverage of the Charlottesville racist jamboree, including Cadillac and Mercedes Benz. Companies like Walmart and HelloFresh said they stay away from Hannity as a general advertising strategy. Those who remember the Bill O'Reilly trajectory at Fox know that he didn't get pushed out the door because of his serial harassment, nor was he pushed out because of the cost of payouts.


I'm looking forward to people smashing up their cars in protest.... that'll show 'em!
   154. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5575336)
I'm trying to think if there was an election in my lifetime with two such personally repugnant candidates.


How old are you? Nixon and Wallace were candidates in the same election.
   155. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5575338)
In a democratic republic, you let the voters decide.


Certainly, if Moore is elected, then expelled - like, it becomes essentially a given he'd get re-elected. The voters already know he's done a bit of child-molesting in his middle age. If they elect him in spite of it, and he gets expelled for it - how does he not just get re-elected?

Expelling him on new info (which might include like, getting criminally charged/convicted for known crimes?) would be different. But I don't see how you expel him for what the voters knew when they elected him.
   156. Nero Wolfe, Indeed Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5575339)
How old are you? Nixon and Wallace were candidates in the same election.


I'd forgotten about Wallace. But, old enough for them.
   157. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5575340)
It's roughly the same quantity of legal experience that Elena Kagan had when she was nominated to the Supreme Court.


or Clarence Thomas?
   158. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5575342)
The precedents appear to call for seating a Senator and then conducting an Ethics Committee investigation, not refusing to recognize the election results because of a disputed pre-election news report.

Which, if Moore gets elected, will allow him plenty of time in the interim for several White House photo ops, after he throws a few bones of flattery in Trump's direction, to be followed by Sarah Smile reading a prepared statement at her daily media briefing:

"Moore said he absolutely did not molest that 14 year old girl. He did not do what they are saying he did. Every time he sees me he says I didn’t do that and I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it," the president said.
   159. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5575343)
Certainly, if Moore is elected, then expelled - like, it becomes essentially a given he'd get re-elected. The voters already know he's done a bit of child-molesting in his middle age. If they elect him in spite of it, and he gets expelled for it - how does he not just get re-elected?

Expelling him on new info (which might include like, getting criminally charged/convicted for known crimes?) would be different. But I don't see how you expel him for what the voters knew when they elected him.


This is basically what I have been contending for a while.
   160. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5575344)
But I don't see how you expel him for what the voters knew when they elected him.


That was not known during the primary, which was the important election. If he had to go through another primary, Alabama republicans would have a far easier time voting for a different republican that they would voting for a Democrat in the upcoming general.

Not saying that's what would happen. This is Alabama after all, but it's not a fair comparison.
   161. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5575345)
As noted in #111, Talley's experience is a little thin, and those opposed to all District Court appointees without trial experience can fault him on that count, but he's not the first District Court nominee without trial experience. Obama had at least two, and I suspect most Presidents had that many or more. Talley has worked in all three branches of the federal government, served in state government, and has a bit of law firm experience. He's apparently a bit brighter than most, being a Harvard grad who edited a law review. If the local bar was outraged by his nomination maybe there'd be a basis for opposing him, but by all accounts they are not. That would seem to account for why the out-of-state opposition groups resort to calling him a "blogger" and distort the experience that he does have.


I think it's really cute the way Clapper keeps pretending that judicial qualifications are meaningful in a post-Merrick-Garland world.
   162. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5575348)
I think it's really cute the way Clapper keeps pretending that judicial qualifications are meaningful in a post-Merrick-Garland world.


Right. Clapper's position, which he has confirmed, is essentially might makes right. It's totally OK to block nominations within an unspecified period before an election. Provided you have the votes to do so. It's totally OK to nominate unqualified people, provided you have the votes to confirm. If RBG dies in August 2020, and Trump rushes a nomination to the Senate who vote to confirm in October, Clapper's position would be "That's perfectly fine." "No election year confirmations? What are you talking about?"
   163. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5575350)
Alabama (apparently) allows write-in votes, so it's not as though they're actually stuck with one choice or the other. It's a little more work to dig themselves out of this hole they dug themselves, but there you are.
   164. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:12 PM (#5575353)
it's not a good look on the US to investigate the campaign that won the election for the noncrime of doing so

Yeah, the GOP really needs to stop investigating GOP campaigns which win the Presidency. I know how much the GOP hates having a GOP president, but still, total noncrime!


You don't actually appear to be familiar with Rosenstein's statement upon appointing Mueller:

“In my capacity as acting attorney general I determined that it is in the public interest for me to exercise my authority and appoint a special counsel to assume responsibility for this matter. My decision is not a finding that crimes have been committed or that any prosecution is warranted. I have made no such determination. What I have determined is that based upon the unique circumstances the public interest requires me to place this investigation under the authority of a person who exercises a degree of independence from the normal chain of command.”

In other words, the appointment was out of public curiosity. Which basically is the definition of a witch hunt.
   165. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5575354)
Right. Clapper's position, which he has confirmed, is essentially might makes right. It's totally OK to block nominations within an unspecified period before an election. Provided you have the votes to do so. It's totally OK to nominate unqualified people, provided you have the votes to confirm. If RBG dies in August 2020, and Trump rushes a nomination to the Senate who vote to confirm in October, Clapper's position would be "That's perfectly fine." "No election year confirmations? What are you talking about?"


Of course. Dude's the hackiest hack to ever hack a hack.
   166. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:14 PM (#5575355)
Alabama (apparently) allows write-in votes, so it's not as though they're actually stuck with one choice or the other. It's a little more work to dig themselves out of this hole they dug themselves, but there you are.


Again, not applicable. The overwhelmingly likely result is that the R and the D candidate will get the 2 highest number of votes, and that if the write in gets a significant number, the D will win. So again, Republicans are given a choice of voting for Moore, or having Jones elected. Voting for a write in, or not voting, while principled actions, will only serve to help Jones get elected. Whereas in a primary, they would be free to vote for a non-Moore candidate, with little if any implications WRT helping a Democrat win the seat.
   167. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:14 PM (#5575356)
In other words, the appointment was out of public curiosity.


That's not what the bolded words mean, Ray.
   168. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5575357)
I think it's really cute the way Clapper keeps pretending that judicial qualifications are meaningful in a post-Merrick-Garland world.

I think it's far from cute that some folks here still pretend that the Senate not confirming a nominee to an election year vacancy is different when it happens to a Democratic President and their party then loses the subsequent election. Hundreds of judicial nominees have not been confirmed during presidential election years - Including both John Roberts & Elena Kagan. It should also be noted that before the election much of Team Blue here was chortling over the prospect of Hillary appointing an even more liberal nominee - Garland only became an outrage when she lost.
   169. Srul Itza Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5575359)
Roughly the same quantity of legal experience that Elena Kagan had when she was nominated to the Supreme Court



Clerking Judge Abner Mikva of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit
Clerking for Justice Thurgood Marshall of the U.S. Supreme Court.
Three years at Williams & Connolly
Four years teaching at University of Chicago School of Law
Four years in Clinton White House, as Associate Counsel, Deputy Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy, and Deputy Director of the Domestic Policy Council
Professor, then Dean, of Harvard Law School, 1999-2008

If he has the equivalent, then I don't see the issue.
   170. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5575360)
I'm trying to think if there was an election in my lifetime with two such personally repugnant candidates. And I don't mean due to their politics, just as human beings.

Here I'll just repeat the point that was made during last year's election: The people who've known Hillary for the longest time tend to be her strongest defenders, while people who've known Trump for the longest time have tended to take him to court.


This is irrational. It presupposes that you have to know someone personally in order to find him repugnant.

In that case one shouldn't find OJ Simpson repugnant --or Donald Trump -- without knowing him personally.

   171. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5575361)
Public interest in this context means "public stake or benefit", not "public curiosity", Ray.

Why would public curiosity require an independent prosecutor? It wouldn't.

Why would public interest require an independent prosecutor? Because the public interest of justice isn't served when those being investigation can exert control or influence of the investigation.
   172. Satan Says Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5575363)
I don't think Moore is a shoe in to be elected. There's a certain percentage of evangelicals who will abstain, as well as country club Republicans. There's a segment of the GOP that would prefer to beat Jones in a couple of years rather than have Moore elected.

Barring his withdrawal, we shall see.
   173. PepTech Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5575365)
In other words, the appointment was out of public curiosity. Which basically is the definition of a witch hunt.
Setting aside how you came to the phrase "out of public curiosity", let's check the tape:
Definition of witch hunt

1 :a searching out for persecution of persons accused of witchcraft
2 :the searching out and deliberate harassment of those (such as political opponents) with unpopular views
No, that's not the same as "public curiosity". Also, Rosenstein is not a political opponent of the Rs. I guess "searching out" fits.

Add "witch hunt" to the list of terms Ray doesn't understand.
   174. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5575366)
In 1968, southern Democrats had a third choice between Nixon and Humphrey. And it served to elect Nixon. Nixon got 301 EVs, but Humphrey + Wallace handily beat Nixon TN, SC, and NC, states totalling 32 EVs, and states that Nixon got less than 40%. Nixon also lost to H+W by 10 points or more in FL, VA, and KY, states totalling another 35 EVs.
   175. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5575367)
Alabama (apparently) allows write-in votes, so it's not as though they're actually stuck with one choice or the other. It's a little more work to dig themselves out of this hole they dug themselves, but there you are.


Absent Moore dropping out and endorsing a write-in substitute, though -- a write-in candidacy for Strange (or even Mo Brooks) is almost certainly doomed and more than likely ensures that Jones wins.

Doesn't matter how you slice it -- all roads lead through Moore... The Mooredophiles want their animus, dammit - and they're gonna have it regardless. I suspect there's a plurality of Moore voters who aren't voting for anyone EXCEPT Moore unless Moore says to do so.

There's just no realistic road to a GOP Senator not named Roy Moore at this point without the cooperation of Roy Moore...
   176. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5575368)
I enjoy reading YC's posts because he has a pleasing, measured tone, and always imparts the impression that he has an authoritative understanding of the issue at hand. But he's the worst shill on the site, probably, and the worst Whataboutist too.
   177. BDC Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5575369)
Wasn't Elena Kagan also Solicitor General of the United States? I am not even a fake lawyer and I have no idea whether that's considered a qualification for SCOTUS. I know Robert Bork held that position and it did not work very well for him :(
   178. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5575370)
Again, not applicable. The overwhelmingly likely result is that the R and the D candidate will get the 2 highest number of votes, and that if the write in gets a significant number, the D will win. So again, Republicans are given a choice of voting for Moore, or having Jones elected.


This is only true if the vast majority of Republicans simply don't mind that Moore appears to be a child molester. If it was an actual, widespread concern, it wouldn't be terribly hard to semi-unify behind another candidate. Republicans take about two thirds of the vote in Alabama these days - it'd be quite unlikely vote splitting would result in a (D) in office, unless it split almost perfectly in half.
   179. zenbitz Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5575371)
"well done , homeless, the kingdom of heaven is yours" is a more correct modern translation capturing the actual meaning of the words used.


I am not sure if I know less Biblical scholarship or ancient Greek - but as you have described this I would translate this as "Those who have no Kingdom on earth ("home"), the kingdom of heaven is yours".
   180. Srul Itza Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5575373)
Wasn't Elena Kagan also Solicitor General of the United States?


I think for about 2 months, before she was nominated for SCOTUS.
   181. Srul Itza Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:28 PM (#5575374)
This is only true if the vast majority of Republicans simply don't mind that Moore appears to be a child molester.


Republicans, no.

Alabamians . . .
   182. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5575377)
Yes, I was only referring to Republicans in Alabama.
   183. BDC Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5575378)
Fair enough, Simon, you have some good arguments for your interpretation.

πτωχός, my lexicon tells me, is used in the Odyssey for "beggar" (Odysseus when he returns in disguise, Book 14). So it can mean "homeless," I reckon, though "poor" is hardly misleading.
   184. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5575379)
If it was an actual, widespread concern, it wouldn't be terribly hard to semi-unify behind another candidate.


Tell him Wash.

"It's incredibly hard."

Are you actually arguing, with a straight face, that it would be no big deal to organize a successful write in campaign against the wishes of the guy named on the ballot? That's daft.

edit:

In 20126, Richard Shelby won 64-36 with the advantage of incumbency. In a non-Moore election, the D running against a generic non-incumbent should get more. Let's say 40%. So a write in would have to get 2/3+ of the available R vote. Again, not going to happen.
   185. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5575385)
"big deal" is a subjective judgement, but people certainly do organize write ins successfully when they feel circumstances demand it. The huge (R) tilt of Alabama does make it fairly simple to either (a) succeed, or (b), fail, and have Moore elected anyways.

in 2016, the (R) senate candidate in Alabama got 63.8% of the vote, to the (D)'s 35.8. If 60% of (R) wrote in, their candidate would win. For all the talk of only (R) or (D) can win, the current senate has two senators who're neither, and one who was elected by a write-in vote. It's not that hard, if you believe being an unrepentant child molester is a serious problem.
   186. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5575386)
Shelby's opponent in 2016 was Ron Crumpton, who is listed as a marajuana legalization activist, and a nominee for state senate. Doug jones is a far stronger candidate. A baseline for his support is probably higher than 40%. Even if the R's could semi-unify (your words) behind a write in, it likely wouldn't be enough.
   187. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5575387)
I've been waiting for Omineca Greg to show up with a fantabulous story about Greek pastries.
   188. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:40 PM (#5575389)
in 2016, the (R) senate candidate in Alabama got 63.8% of the vote, to the (D)'s 35.8.


A popular incumbent running against a marajuana legalization activist. See 186.
   189. simon bedford Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:40 PM (#5575390)
BDC
The reason "poor" in Greek is misleading is because the rich did all the writing back in them there days so everyone was "poor" (cue the life of Brian references), so saying "destitute" or "beggar" is making a huge exception , its the difference between the everyday working person (penses) and the guy begging for food living on the absolute margins of society (ptochoi)
Zenbitz your translation is pretty damn good and you could make a good case for it , Blessed art thou!
   190. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5575391)
Another interesting wrinkle...

Sunday, Republican Party Chairman Terry Lathan told the Alabama Political Reporter that she has not even heard of any GOP elected official or candidate that is even considering running as a write-in candidate against Republican U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore, and Lathan warned GOP officials and candidates not to endorse Doug Jones or a write-in campaign.

“It would be a serious error for any current elected GOP official or candidate to publicly endorse another party’s candidate, an independent, a third party or a write in candidate in a general election as well,” Lathan said. “I have heard of no GOP elected official or candidate that is even considering this option.”


Lathan added, “Here is the Party rule on denying ballot access:”

“Denying Ballot Access: This Committee reserves the right to deny ballot access to a candidate for public office if in a prior election that person was a Republican office holder and either publicly participated in the primary election of another political party or publicly supported a nominee of another political party. The provisions of this Rule shall apply for a period of six years after such person so participated. (This rule does not include all of the reasons for denying ballot access.)”
   191. PepTech Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5575392)
I have no idea how accurate these are, but whatever. Both supposedly sample Nov 9-Nov 11.

In a turnabout, Jones leads Moore 46-42

Or, if you prefer, Moore leads Jones 55-45
   192. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5575393)
I'm trying to think if there was an election in my lifetime with two such personally repugnant candidates. And I don't mean due to their politics, just as human beings.


Here I'll just repeat the point that was made during last year's election: The people who've known Hillary for the longest time tend to be her strongest defenders, while people who've known Trump for the longest time have tended to take him to court.

This is irrational. It presupposes that you have to know someone personally in order to find him repugnant.

In that case one shouldn't find OJ Simpson repugnant --or Donald Trump -- without knowing him personally.


Again, the testimony from people who've known Hillary for many decades is almost universally positive, even from those who oppose her politically 100%. The contrast in that respect between her and Trump couldn't be clearer.

   193. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5575394)
Right. Clapper's position, which he has confirmed, is essentially might makes right. It's totally OK to block nominations within an unspecified period before an election. Provided you have the votes to do so. It's totally OK to nominate unqualified people, provided you have the votes to confirm. If RBG dies in August 2020, and Trump rushes a nomination to the Senate who vote to confirm in October, Clapper's position would be "That's perfectly fine." "No election year confirmations? What are you talking about?"

Is Misirlou a habitual liar, or does he pay so little attention to what is posted that he can't help getting things wrong? Perhaps both? I have repeatedly noted that the Senate under both parties has a long history of blocking judicial confirmations during presidential election years. That really can't be in doubt. And it's also true that leading Senate Democrats indicated they would block an election year appointment to the Supreme Court by a GOP President, just as they had repeatedly done for lower court nominations. I have also repeatedly noted that if Senate Democrats have the votes they will almost certainly give any election year SCOTUS nominee by a GOP President the Garland treatment, and that they can't be faulted for that, unless you count playing politics in the manner they had previously claimed to reject.

More generally, I favor confirming competent federal judge nominees without regard to most political considerations. Unfortunately, that ship appears to have sailed, largely because of actions of Senate Democrats. GOP Senators voted overwhelmingly for Ginsburg & Breyer, and Democrats returned the favor by voting against Roberts & Alito in large numbers, even attempting to filibuster Alito. Democrats used the filibuster to block judicial nominees of George W. Bush, and then abolished the filibuster for Obama's judicial nominees. You can't have a process that's a walk in the park for one party and a gauntlet for the other. Democrats treatment of Trump's nominees will undoubtedly affect how the judicial nominees of the next Democratic President are treated - something that appears to be have been given little thought by those advocating across the board opposition.
   194. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5575395)
A baseline for his support is probably higher than 40%.


Well, we could use 2014, when the (R) got .. 97.25%

Okay, 2010, the (R) got ... 65.3%

Okay, 2008, the (R) got ... 63.4%
   195. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:47 PM (#5575399)
I think it's far from cute that some folks here still pretend that the Senate not confirming a nominee to an election year vacancy is different when it happens to a Democratic President and their party then loses the subsequent election.


Attaboy, keep spinning those plates. Keep doing it long enough, you might even convince yourself!
   196. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:48 PM (#5575400)
The huge (R) tilt of Alabama does make it fairly simple to either (a) succeed, or (b), fail, and have Moore elected anyways.


It would have to either succeed pectacularly, or fail miserably. Anything inbetween elects Jones.

Well, we could use 2014, when the (R) got .. 97.25%

Okay, 2010, the (R) got ... 65.3%

Okay, 2008, the (R) got ... 63.4%


2014 has to be an unopposed election. 2010 and 2008 were again, elections featuring incumbents.


edit: When Sessions first ran in 1996, it was for an open seat. He won by 7 points. Every Senate election since then has featured either Sessions or Shelby as an incumbent. I don't think Jones's support would be as high as 45.5% against a non-Moore candidate, but I believe it would be higher than 36%.
   197. madvillain Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5575402)
A popular incumbent running against a marijuana legalization activist. See 186.


This seems as much a generational wedge issue as any in politics. Most of the so called "alt right" are millennials that support legalization despite otherwise "conservative" politics (I'm not sure what "conservative" means anymore hence the quotes.). But I was talking with an older woman (probably late 40s or mid 50s), professional, graduated A&M in 1982 with an Industry Design degree, on my plane ride the other week and she was vehemently anti-weed legalization. She even brought it up unprompted when we were talking about Washington (state) politics. Otherwise she seemed pretty middle of the road politically. Wasn't a huge Obama fan, doesn't like Trump. I think she voted for Hillary although she wouldn't just come out and say it. But totally anti-legal weed. I think for people under 35 or so raised on "just say no" and "DARE" it's so obvious the drug war has failed that regardless of your other views you just can't stand criminalization of drug use, especially something as relatively harmless as weed.
   198. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5575404)
Yeah, 2014 was an unopposed election. Why? Why bother running as a (D) when you're going to get beat 2:1?
   199. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5575405)
2010 and 2008 were again, elections featuring incumbents.


Wikipedia says Sessions won his first election 53-46 (open seat: incumbent Senator Hefflin retired). But that was in 1996, so I don't know how much might have changed in Alabama in the last 21 years.
   200. simon bedford Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5575406)
I am in my early 50's and honestly don't know anyone in my age group who is against legalization, but being in Canada maybe that makes a difference?
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