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Monday, November 13, 2017

OTP 13 November 2017: Politics, race now touching every sport

Like legions of Giants fans who hate the Los Angeles Dodgers, Le rooted for the Houston Astros to beat them in the World Series. But he changed his mind, swallowed hard and began cheering for the Dodgers after Yuri Gurriel, a Cuban-born Astro, hit a home run against Japanese pitcher Yu Darvish then was caught on camera pulling the corners of his eyes with his fingers in a racist gesture.

“I couldn’t really be OK with them winning any longer,” Le said of the Astros.

With Gurriel’s gesture, yet another major sporting event in the United States came to be viewed through a prism of race, politics or both.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:05 AM | 2202 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, dodgers, politics, world series

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   2001. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5578491)
Breakfast in Hell

In the melting snows of Ontario
Where the wind'll make you shiver
It was the month of May up in Georgian Bay
Near the mouth of the Musquash River
Where the bears prowl and the coyotes howl
And you can hear the osprey scream
Back in '99 we were cutting pine
And sending it down the stream
Young Sandy Gray came to Go Home Bay
All the way from P.E.I.
Where the weather's rough and it makes you tough
No man's afraid to die
Sandy came a smilin', Thirty Thousand Islands
Was the place to claim his glory
Now Sandy's gone but his name lives on
This is Sandy's story...
   2002. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5578493)
   2003. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5578495)
AC/DC's Malcolm Young has died. Hopefully he is not on the highway to Hell.
Highway to Hell was released in 1979. Another data point for y'all to ponder...
   2004. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5578499)
Highway to Hell was released in 1979. Another data point for y'all to ponder...


I might be able to get behind the death of Bon Scott as some kind of turning point...

In other music news -- Come Back, Barack seems destined to go places...
   2005. tshipman Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5578504)
Maybe the professor could expound on why it is hardboiled detective stories (The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Out of the Past) or thriller-suspense based films rather than classic "intellectual" whodunnits that make the best and most memorable movies.


Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.

Movies don't encourage that kind of intellectual engagement, typically. A good Christie novel will have you change your mind 3-4 times. Movies just don't last long enough for that to work.
   2006. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5578508)
Highway to Hell was my first rock album.
   2007. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5578510)
Maybe the professor could expound on why it is hardboiled detective stories (The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Out of the Past) or thriller-suspense based films rather than classic "intellectual" whodunnits that make the best and most memorable movies.

Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.

Movies don't encourage that kind of intellectual engagement, typically. A good Christie novel will have you change your mind 3-4 times. Movies just don't last long enough for that to work.


The only problem with that theory as applied to Morty's examples is that those hardboiled yarns, at least the first two, force you into similar mind changes. What makes those hardboiled movies more memorable is the charismatic character of the leading actors, which in turn is largely reliant on the kavorka / va-va voom factors.
   2008. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5578511)
"Highway to Hell" was the nickname for the Canning Highway in Australia. It runs from where lead singer Bon Scott lived in Fremantle and ends at a pub/bar called The Raffles, which was a big rock 'n roll drinking hole in the '70s. As Canning Highway gets close to the pub, it dips down into a steep decline.

   2009. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5578513)
Highway to Hell was my first rock album.


Toys in the Attic for me.
   2010. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5578514)

Toys in the Attic for me.

I drove an exchange student from Adelaide crazy with that one. She was into Violent Femmes.
   2011. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5578515)
Bells are ringing for Malcolm at the Baptist Church across the street.
   2012. BDC Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5578516)
why it is hardboiled detective stories (The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Out of the Past) or thriller-suspense based films rather than classic "intellectual" whodunnits that make the best and most memorable movies

I think Andy makes a good point about the specific talent involved, and Perros is right about the fog of the hard-boiled plot having its attractions.

A lot of the appeal of hard-boileds, to me, is in the dialogue. Huston's Maltese Falcon, and Hawks' Big Sleep, both use a lot of dialogue straight from the novels, and as Raymond Chandler himself pointed out somewhat ungenerously, he and Dashiell Hammett were just better at writing dialogue people might want to repeat than Dorothy Sayers or A.A. Milne were. In turn, those hard-boileds became the model for subsequent films (and for subsequent fiction, too).

Whodunit writing is either functional or trite – I didn't believe Branagh's Hercule Poirot as a sensitive, principled crusader for justice nearly as much as I believed Jeff Bridges in Hell or High Water, or Michael Shannon in Nocturnal Animals: insensitive guys getting the wrong end of the stick and just tugging on it to see what would happen, growling all the while. (The same comparison would hold between Albert Finney's 1970s Poirot, and Gene Hackman in Night Moves or Jack Nicholson in Chinatown.)

But if all you expect out of the current Orient Express is a formula whodunit, it's certainly an OK two hours.
   2013. BDC Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5578517)
Oh, and on the Poirot mustache debate, I have no idea :-D I kind of doubted that Branagh's mustache was physically possible, but I'll probably read somewhere that it was the only thing in the film that was not CGI …
   2014. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5578518)
I never thought of Christie, Carr, Queen, Stout etc as intellectual fare. I did think of The Name of the Rose, which is weird and phenomenal and unique. Simenon, maybe, but he doesn't really write whodunnits, and I think maybe the exoticism somehow makes him seem higher quality than he really is. I've heard that in France they consider Christie one of the greats alongside Shakespeare, Dickens etc.
   2015. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5578519)
Ironically, Aerosmith's cover of the Shangri-las Remember may have been their first song to catch my attention.
   2016. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5578520)
If Run DMC's Raising Hell counts - that would be my first (and it required some convincing of my parents - they weren't PMRC Tipper Gores, but questioned whether a 11 yo should be buying an album titled as such).

If it doesn't, then it's Born in the USA - though purchased the cassette about a year or two after it was released. Dire Straits Brothers in Arms was probably my first "prescient" album purchase.

I wasn't a huge music purveyor during my jr high days/cassette heyday - I did become a very hardcore purchaser of music when I bought my first CD player in HS... man - I think I spent virtually all my HS job paychecks on music and years later at its height near the end of college, my library came damn close to 1000 albums.... though, a good 1/3 of that was made up random stuff I picked up in 99 cent bins and the like.

I do still remember the first five discs I bought, all in one shopping trip. Springsteen's Born to Run, Run DMC's Tougher than Leather, Neil Young's Rust Never Sleeps, Dire Straits Greatest Hits (yes, I had a real Mark Knopfler thing for a while).... and the Doobie Brothers Cycles.

   2017. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5578522)
I kind of doubted that Branagh's mustache was physically possible,

Possible, but Branaugh couldn't do it. Probably take a year to grow and groom it right.
   2018. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5578523)
I listened to the top-40 of the '70's until I turned thirteen... in 1979.
   2019. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5578524)
I hated Dead Again and haven't given KB a shot since.

He's okay in Dunkirk.
   2020. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 19, 2017 at 12:51 PM (#5578525)
But if all you expect out of the current Orient Express is a formula whodunit, it's certainly an OK two hours.


All I expect out of any movie is to be entertained. I was.
   2021. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5578529)
I always think of P.D. James as being quite ambitious. Her books, especially her later ones, usually work on multiple levels for me.
   2022. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5578533)
BREAKING NEWS: AT GUNPOINT!!
   2023. Greg K Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5578534)
The first album I ever owned was No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom. Does that count?
   2024. BDC Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5578535)
I never thought of Christie, Carr, Queen, Stout etc as intellectual fare. I did think of The Name of the Rose, which is weird and phenomenal and unique. Simenon, maybe, but he doesn't really write whodunnits, and I think maybe the exoticism somehow makes him seem higher quality than he really is. I've heard that in France they consider Christie one of the greats alongside Shakespeare, Dickens etc.

Maybe "intellectual" in the "little grey cells" sense, that their appeal is specifically as logic puzzles.

Simenon is like Hemingway in some respects, very pared-down and economical with language and scene-setting. Although several steps to the right of Hemingway politically …

Agatha Christie was something of an icon to French postmodern writers like Alain Robbe-Grillet, and she continues to be the subject of some excellent criticism like Pierre Bayard's Who Killed Roger Ackroyd. Some big names in contemporary French detective fiction, e.g. Fred Vargas and Pierre Lemaitre, owe a lot to Christie. Though I think she's equally an influence on writers like Tom Stoppard in Britain and Paul Auster in the US. She may not have written believable dialogue or characters, but her plots are amazingly inventive and influential.

   2025. Greg K Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5578536)
Kenneth Branagh is one of those guys I will continue to give a shot, even though I can't really list any of his movies I've loved.

Although I do really like Peter's Friends.
   2026. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5578537)
My first album I ever bought with my own money was a cassette version of David Bowie's "Let's Dance".


That was a fun album.
   2027. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5578539)
Kenneth Branagh is one of those guys I will continue to give a shot, even though I can't really list any of his movies I've loved.


Do HBO movies count?

I thought his portrayal of Reinhard Heydrich in the excellent retelling of the Wannsee conference in Conspiracy was quite rightfully acclaimed.
   2028. BDC Posted: November 19, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5578541)
I can't really list any of his movies I've loved

I think Branagh is another actor (like Christopher Plummer or James Earl Jones) who has achieved far more on stage than in movies. (I've never seen him on stage, which is how that often goes.)

Branagh's Shakespeare movies are ambitious but very uneven (I mean the individual movies are uneven, sometimes interesting and sometimes unwatchable in the same film). He hasn't really had a lot of Hollywood star vehicles. The best films I remember seeing him in are Rabbit-Proof Fence and My Week with Marilyn, where he's very much in supporting roles. (I did not see Peter's Friends or Conspiracy.)

Honestly I came to like him most as an actor in Wallander. Those are quality TV episodes. Speaking of impossible facial hair, he manages to have two days' growth of beard for all twenty Wallanders or however many they filmed. I don't know how that would be possible in real life. There can't be a trimmer setting that low.
   2029. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5578544)
Anybody read The Shadow of The Wind? (Carlos Ruiz Zafón). I loved it, but I always got the impression it was a YA ripping good yarn with just enough intellectual pretension to disguise its origins. Which probably explained why I loved it.
   2030. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5578549)
All I expect out of any movie is to be entertained. I was.

This is exactly how I felt about Justice League.
   2031. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5578550)
Latest Trump tweet: I should have left them in jail

Now that the three basketball players are out of China and saved from years in jail, LaVar Ball, the father of LiAngelo, is unaccepting of what I did for his son and that shoplifting is no big deal. I should have left them in jail!
   2032. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5578551)
All I expect out of any movie is to be entertained.

Some are entertained by Branagh. Others by Miike.
   2033. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5578554)
That was a fun album


I like the radio. You turn it on and get the very tune that was humming inside your head.
   2034. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 19, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5578556)
Kenneth Branagh is one of those guys I will continue to give a shot, even though I can't really list any of his movies I've loved.

His early work was good. Henry V. I really liked Dead Again, though hated Peter's Friends. Rip off of the Secaucus Seven/Big Chill. He was good in Valkyrie. He was in the British version of Wallander, which was quite good.
   2035. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5578560)
I should have left them in jail

OJ Simpson man
   2036. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5578561)
The first album I ever owned was No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom. Does that count?

Mine was disco, little doubt. Jackson 5 were early faves.

And Burt Bacharach
   2037. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5578564)
I do still remember the first five discs I bought, all in one shopping trip
I remember the first 3 CDs I bought when I made the switch from vinyl...

Something/Anything? Todd Rundgren
Explorations Bill Evans
40 Greatest Hits Hank Williams

   2038. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5578566)
Something/Anything? Todd Rundgren

Got that one on Rhino. CDs have now largely reverted to their true value. Unless it's something rare.
   2039. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:27 PM (#5578569)
Yeah, I guess Something/Anything? has a Roy Moore classic...

Marlene, you're the prettiest girl I've ever seen
Do you care for me at all
Marlene, I care for you
And I just don't care who knows it

And I guess that means that I love you
Marlene
Marlene, who'd believe that you're only seventeen
I'm in trouble if your folks get mean

And if they do
Then I don't care if they bust me

And I guess that means that I love you
I don't need no fantasies
Just one thing I need
If you could make it here, Marlene
Dear Marlene, Marlene
Marlene, when I think that it all is just a dream
I remember that your eyes are green
And mine are blue
They will always see each other

And I guess that means that I love you
I don't need realities
Just one thing I need
If you could make it here Marlene
Dear Marlene, Marlene
Marlene, I'm depending on you now
Marlene

Rundgren
   2040. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5578572)
   2041. Greg K Posted: November 19, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5578578)
Rip off of the Secaucus Seven/Big Chill.

Oh yeah, I don't think they were trying to hide it.

I actually watched The Big Chill for the first time a few years ago...it's pretty much the same movie. But one of them has Stephen Fry and one doesn't.

I do love William Hurt though, so it's not like The Big Chill is hurting for talent. Plus all the Goldblum you could possibly need!
   2042. OCF Posted: November 19, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5578579)
Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.

John Le Carre's Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy could be called a whoudunit. There, you (as reader) don't really change your mind several times. At some point, you figure that Smiley knows who it has to be, and you're looking over Smiley's shoulder. But Smiley doesn't really want to believe that that's who it is, and he helps convince you to hold off as well.

Someone else mentioned dialogue. One of Le Carre's particular gifts is in writing the dialogue of an interrogation.
   2043. Greg K Posted: November 19, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5578580)
The Big Chill does seem like it's a format that can be updated for each generation (or in Peter's Friends case, each country).

I've seen a handful that attempt to tell the same story with people who grew up in the 90s, though they've been pretty uniformly awful.
   2044. dog poop god Posted: November 19, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5578583)
I do love William Hurt though, so it's not like The Big Chill is hurting for talent. Plus all the Goldblum you could possibly need!

Gimme Altered States/The Fly double feature instead...

Hey! That college girl I went out with in high school? First date movie was The Big Chill.
   2045. BDC Posted: November 19, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5578586)
Anybody read The Shadow of The Wind? (Carlos Ruiz Zafón). I loved it, but I always got the impression it was a YA ripping good yarn with just enough intellectual pretension to disguise its origins. Which probably explained why I loved it

Yes, I liked The Shadow of the Wind very much (though I got tired of the sequel, The Angel's Game, and gave up on it; and now there are two more sequels).

Ruiz Zafón started as a young-adult writer, so I think you're exactly right about the book's origins. The only one of his YA books I've read is The Midnight Palace, and I liked that one too.
   2046. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 19, 2017 at 05:28 PM (#5578587)
But one of them has Stephen Fry and one doesn't.

Yes but the one with Fry also has Tony Slattery. He was just awful in that movie.
   2047. Morty Causa Posted: November 19, 2017 at 06:00 PM (#5578591)
Classic whodunnit novels invite, even demand as part of a reader's fulfillment an investment of a high level of conscious thinking, rather than a deep emotional commitment that has its basis in instinctive visceral reaction. Movies don't lend themselves to you pausing and thinking things out as you are watching them. In a way, books and movies are incompatible, never more so than with a species of literature that so obviously appeal to that which is cerebral in our nature. That makes the one difficult to translate satisfactorily into the other.

I never thought of Christie, Carr, Queen, Stout etc as intellectual fare. I did think of The Name of the Rose, which is weird and phenomenal and unique. Simenon, maybe, but he doesn't really write whodunnits, and I think maybe the exoticism somehow makes him seem higher quality than he really is. I've heard that in France they consider Christie one of the greats alongside Shakespeare, Dickens etc.

Two literary works that I think highly of that make use of the trappings of mystery-detection/thriller-suspense are John Fowles's The Collector and The Magus (the latter, if you accept my designation, a 700-page exercise in a most convoluted experiment of that sort).
   2048. Morty Causa Posted: November 19, 2017 at 06:04 PM (#5578592)
I tried Le Carre years ago and found him flat, especially the unvarying dialogue, which seemed to have been meant to carry the story. I probably should go back to him, since the fault could have been my immaturity as a reader.
   2049. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5578594)
Why in holy fuck should anyone be concerned about aping or ripping off the Big Chill?
   2050. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2017 at 06:53 PM (#5578595)
I read The Magus when I was 23, in about one week, marathon reading sessions on the beach on Ko Pha Ngan. Wow. Real mindf-ck there.

Movies don't lend themselves to you pausing and thinking things out as you are watching them. In a way, books and movies are incompatible, never more so than with a species of literature that so obviously appeal to that which is cerebral in our nature. That makes the one difficult to translate satisfactorily into the other.

I don't think I agree with this. Or, I would amend it to say that Hollywood movies don't lend themselves to you pausing and thinking things out. I think the format can support it - and we can look to the many very successes of whodunnits on the small screen as an example. The many long-running PBS and BBC whodunnits are obvious, but Law & Order, CSI and probably a million similar shows follow the formula of standalone episodes that begin with a crime and multiple suspects, clues, etc. I think you could make any number of wonderful cerebral whodunnit films. That Hollywood producers think we do not want to see that sort of thing - or that they refuse to present such a story without larding it with sentimentality - does not mean that such films are impossible to make.

Also, I'm a big Le Carre fan, but I can admit his charms are elusive. The books are almost wholly lacking in exciting espionage, the plots develop slowly, the narrative can be very elliptical, but they're still spy novels first and foremost. But there's something absolutely compelling about it and when you get to the end of the book and the exciting things do finally happen, it kind of takes your breath away.
   2051. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: November 19, 2017 at 06:59 PM (#5578597)
AC/DC's Malcolm Young has died. Hopefully he is not on the highway to Hell.


I've been thunderstruck
   2052. Morty Causa Posted: November 19, 2017 at 07:08 PM (#5578600)
2051:

You summed up why I didn't bond with Le Carre better than I did.

I think you're onto something with you taking qualified exception to my assertion wrt pausing and pondering movies. Home-viewing is something else and it may allow that. But, I would think that would still work better on re-watching something on TV than the kinetic experience involved in seeing it for the first time. But, your demurral is noted.

I read The Magus when I was 23, in about one week, marathon reading sessions on the beach on Ko Pha Ngan. Wow. Real mindf-ck there.

Was that a positive reaction?
   2053. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5578601)
Maybe it's because I'm in a terrible mood and while I'm sorry someone well-loved is dead, I never gave a single crap about AC/DC and therefore that dude either.
   2054. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2017 at 07:49 PM (#5578605)
Morty, mostly positive. I enjoyed the book, and I burned through it so quickly because I needed to know what would happen next. If memory serves me right, I had a bit of trouble with how unreal it all was ... had an issue with suspension of disbelief, I guess I would say. But that's nitpicking.

I read the The French Lieutenant's Woman soon after and thought that it was a masterpiece. That might be my favorite overtly post-modern novel.
   2055. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: November 19, 2017 at 07:50 PM (#5578607)
Why in holy #### should anyone be concerned about aping or ripping off the Big Chill?

On an ethical level, nobody, I guess. On an artistic level, if you're ripping off The Big Chill, then you might as well get a job with Xerox.
   2056. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2017 at 07:56 PM (#5578610)
Le Carre is easy to sample because his most exciting and perhaps best novel is also his shortest, The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.
   2057. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 08:38 PM (#5578617)
I bought a 33 of 1984 by Van Halen as my first album purchase
   2058. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 19, 2017 at 09:12 PM (#5578619)
I've been thunderstruck


Apparently this is becoming a thing at college sports events. I tooke my son to a campus visit las weekend, and we went to a BBall game on Friday, and a Football game on saturday, and the song was featured on the PA at both.
   2059. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 10:06 PM (#5578625)
.

   2060. Omineca Greg Posted: November 19, 2017 at 10:14 PM (#5578627)
Ben Riley died yesterday.

Ben was a drummer, probably best known for being in Thelonious Monk's most enduring quartet (Monk/Rouse/Riley/Gales), but he played on lots of records. I think my favourite might be Rollins' The Bridge. Ben was 84.

I'll show you some of his work with Monk.

Gotta Get My Old Tuxedo Pressed

I picked this one because it has some highlights:

At 3:00 Monk starts to really feel it, and he gets up from the piano and starts to dance. If you've never seen Thelonious dance, you're in for a treat.

At 11:25 Ben gets a solo, so you can hear what he's all about.

At 19:55, during a solo "Blame your kiss, As sweet as a kiss can be, And blame all your charms, That melt in my arms, But don't blame me" Ben mocks his boss behind his back for awhile. Great moment.

And if you're getting frustrated because you want to hear some original Monk Music, at 23:11 you get a pithy "Epistrophy"...

Thanks for everything, Ben.
   2061. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 10:42 PM (#5578628)
And while I'm here: movie of the day, Branagh's Murder on the Orient Express.

Not much politics, though there is a Ty Cobb reference at one point.

Although … Agatha Christie's novels can contain some mild racism and anti-Semitism (sometimes more than mild; one of her biggest successes was of course titled Ten Little N#####s, a title that wasn't even printable in the segregationist United States).

In adaptations like the Albert Finney Orient Express in the '70s, that stuff got airbrushed out. It comes back in Branagh's 2017 film, but in a way that (mildly) represents America as racist and Europe as anti-Semitic, and of course Hercule Poirot as neither. Some elements of history are restored, but in a different proportion to Agatha Christie's.


I saw it last week, I thought it was boring (*) and full of itself.

(*) Granted I fell asleep halfway through. Though I don't see how that helps the movie's cause.
   2062. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 10:47 PM (#5578629)
What's an example of an intellectual whodunnit?


There isn't one. Whodunnits are inherently uninteresting due to type. They swerve you from one suspect to the next and at the end the reveal is utterly boring as they throw a bunch of new facts at you that you didn't have beforehand, in order to unveil the murderer.
   2063. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 10:51 PM (#5578630)
Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.


That's precisely why they're not compelling. The reader/viewer is jerked around several times and when the murderer is revealed it's someone he couldn't have possibly guessed from the clues -- or, at least, the murder was no more likely than any other suspect that was presented.

Take the genre back.
   2064. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:05 PM (#5578633)
John Le Carre's Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy could be called a whoudunit.


Well, it was certainly boring enough.

It had that "difficult to follow through the sleep inducement" thing happening too.
   2065. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:11 PM (#5578635)
Well, Lassus has been outgrumped.
   2066. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:12 PM (#5578636)
Lana Shields died the other day also.
   2067. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:20 PM (#5578638)
Although … Agatha Christie's novels can contain some mild racism and anti-Semitism (sometimes more than mild; one of her biggest successes was of course titled Ten Little N#####s, a title that wasn't even printable in the segregationist United States).


Ten Little Niggers was the British title from 1939 all the way up through the 70's. In the U.S., it was published in 1940 as And Then There Were None, and then the paperback and movie versions became Ten Little Indians.

And in what country is the book still called Ten Little Niggers? Italy.
   2068. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 19, 2017 at 11:20 PM (#5578639)
Morrissey not making many friends:


Morrissey defends Weinstein and Spacey, blames victims


The British singer Morrissey defended both Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein in an interview this weekend, claiming their alleged victims knew “exactly” what was going on — and chose to “play along.”

“Afterward, they feel embarrassed, or they do not like it,” Morrissey said while speaking to the German news outlet Der Spiegel.

“And then they turn it around and say: I was attacked, I was surprised, I was dragged into the room.”

...

The 58-year-old appeared to do most of his victim blaming while discussing the allegations against Spacey.

“As far as I know, he was in a bedroom with a 14-year-old. Kevin Spacey was 26, boy 14. One wonders where the boy’s parents were,” he said. “One wonders if the boy did not know what would happen. I do not know about you, but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me. It seems to me that Spacey has been attacked unnecessarily
.”
   2069. dog poop god Posted: November 20, 2017 at 12:48 AM (#5578651)
Reportedly, Merkel can't form a governing coalition.
   2070. zenbitz Posted: November 20, 2017 at 01:20 AM (#5578655)
Jeeze that more than cancels out Morrissey's one great achievement of founding the Cramps fan club.

I listened to Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy on audio book on a long car trip. Thought it was pretty solid in that mode.

I know my first two LPs were The Beatles White Album and The Stones Tattoo You. But from there it was all AC/DC and Iron Maiden until I discovered Punk via the Repo Man soundtrack in high school.
   2071. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 02:42 AM (#5578657)
It's rough for him, being both the fiercest critic and fiercest proponent of whataboutism. Let's see *you* maintain a straight face while spazzing out about the smallest comparison of anything to what a Democrat does and simultaneously trying to figure out why everything was predicted by Reagan's Philadelphia speech. As hard as that sounds, imagine having to do this while making sure your response has no connection with any of the points made by the person you're responding to and figuring out how to either include either a reference to a book you read about the French health care system or one to the Caine Mutiny which indicates that you don't realize that Queeg is not actually the antagonist.

Sound tough to do consistently? Now try doing it in each of your 750 posts a day in the off-topic politics threads of a baseball discussion site.
And, despite all that, Andy's behavior can be kind of cute, albeit in a maddeningly, wrist-slitting sort of way. (smile)
   2072. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 02:47 AM (#5578658)
Reportedly, Merkel can't form a governing coalition.
Yup. The Free Democrats took a walk.
   2073. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 20, 2017 at 03:52 AM (#5578660)
Charles Manson has finally been rehabilitated.
   2074. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 03:54 AM (#5578661)
New York Times Reporter: Obama Administration Misled on al Qaeda:
A top foreign correspondent at the New York Times said Friday that the Obama administration deliberately downplayed al Qaeda’s strength in the run-up to the 2012 presidential election.

“The overall narrative that I think was being pushed to the press, and if you look back at the editorials that were done when that trove came out, was an image of bin Laden isolated, he had lost control of this group,” Rukmini Callimachi said during an event at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, referring to the 17 hand-picked documents released by the Obama administration in May of 2012.

Her remarks triggered the following question from Kim Dozier, a former top correspondent for the Associated Press and CBS, and current executive editor of the Cipher Brief: “Do you think that was something that was kept from the public’s view because it revealed that there had to be reams of communication going back and forth, which means U.S. intelligence, Western intelligence, was missing this?”

“Think back to when bin Laden was killed. It was 2011, it was right before a major campaign season. I don’t want to underplay the role that the killing of Osama bin Laden had,” said Callimachi. “But I think that that was theorized into something much bigger.”

“The head of the organization has been killed, and now—these are literally quotes that I would get: the organization has been ‘decimated,’ the organization is in ‘disarray,’ the organization is ‘on the run,’” she continued. “At the same time that we were preparing to pull out troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, I think that it was important to portray this as a problem that no longer existed.” ...

Updated: The panel discussed the extensive bureaucratic infighting among U.S. intelligence agencies that led to the information from the documents not only being withheld from the public but also kept from key elements of the intelligence community. “I was hearing from intelligence analysts from within the US government saying: ‘We can’t get our hands on these files.’ It’s strange,” said Dozier.
Unpossible!
   2075. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 05:42 AM (#5578662)
More than one year later...

FBI has not verified Trump dossier:
According to sources familiar with the matter, neither the FBI nor the Justice Department has provided documents in response to that part of the committee's subpoena. But in face-to-face briefings with congressional staff, according to those sources, FBI and DOJ officials have said they cannot verify the dossier's charges of a conspiracy between the Russian government and the Trump campaign.

The news appears to contradict recent statements from some top Democrats. "A lot of it has turned out to be true," Rep. Adam Schiff, ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence panel, told the Wall Street Journal on Wednesday.

"The biggest thing that I think people need to realize about the dossier is that Christopher Steele discovered that the Russians were embarked on a broad effort to help the Trump campaign before our own intelligence agencies came to the same conclusion," Schiff told the Journal. "In the broadest outline of what he investigated, he proved more than prescience — he proved accurate in terms of the Russian involvement and what their motivations were."

There have been many questions surrounding the dossier. Who paid for it? Who were its sources? Did the FBI use it as a basis to request a secret court's authorization to spy on Americans? But the most important question about the dossier is the most basic one: Is it true? ...

Whatever the case, the bottom line appears to be that the FBI and the Justice Department are not vouching for the accuracy of the substantive allegations of collusion in the dossier. Indeed, a careful reading of Schiff's interview with the Wall Street Journal suggests even the combative top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee isn't doing so, either.

The most important thing about the dossier, Schiff said, is that Steele discovered the Russian "broad effort" to influence the election before U.S. intelligence agencies did. Steele was accurate "in the broadest outline of what he did," Schiff claimed, which was reporting "Russian involvement" and "what [Russian] motivations were."

That's fine, as far as it goes -- after all, investigators unanimously agree that Russia tried to influence the election -- but what about the Trump campaign? What about all those specific allegations of coordination between Team Trump and the Russians? Those were the most explosive parts of the dossier. And they remain unverified.
   2076. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 06:01 AM (#5578663)
Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.

That's precisely why they're not compelling. The reader/viewer is jerked around several times and when the murderer is revealed it's someone he couldn't have possibly guessed from the clues -- or, at least, the murder was no more likely than any other suspect that was presented.

Take the genre back.
Ray prefers his mysteries more intellectually challenging, like on Hawaii 5-0.
   2077. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 20, 2017 at 06:08 AM (#5578664)
Those are called "hedunnits."
   2078. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 20, 2017 at 06:23 AM (#5578665)
Ray prefers his mysteries more intellectually challenging, like on Hawaii 5-0.

I was going to say Columbo. Which is basically a whodunnit, without any actual mystery about whodunnit.
   2079. Greg K Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:12 AM (#5578668)
Reportedly, Merkel can't form a governing coalition.
Yup. The Free Democrats took a walk.

Belgium operated without a governing coalition before it was cool!

This does seem like yet another obstacle to getting something resembling a Brexit deal negotiated before March 2019.
   2080. dog poop god Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:30 AM (#5578670)
Columbo. Which is basically a whodunnit, without any actual mystery about whodunnit.

Never talk to cops.
   2081. dog poop god Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:34 AM (#5578671)
Who paid for it?

Hillary.

Schiff is an utter hack.
   2082. Morty Causa Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:50 AM (#5578672)
Morty, mostly positive. I enjoyed the book, and I burned through it so quickly because I needed to know what would happen next. If memory serves me right, I had a bit of trouble with how unreal it all was ... had an issue with suspension of disbelief, I guess I would say. But that's nitpicking.

Much of The Magus's force derives from the sense you get that realism is being intruded upon by a seemingly magical dimension, things out of the control of the protagonist, from that magical aspect insistently forcing itself upon reality. Like I said, it is paced like a thriller, and I remember when I first read it at 17, I nervously paced the floor near the end, afraid of the ending, which I think substantiated those fears.

Anyone wanting to try The Magus should get hold of a copy of the first, unrevised edition.

I read the The French Lieutenant's Woman soon after and thought that it was a masterpiece. That might be my favorite overtly post-modern novel.

I don't know how post-modern it is, but it is a masterpiece.

Before he became immersed in metafiction, John Barth wrote two excellent short novels with a post-modern attitude and sensibility that I highly recommend: The Floating Opera and The End of the Road, explorations in taking nihilism to the limit. Like Fowles, they are very intellectual but within the embodiment of the story and plot. Lawyers here may be especially taken by The Floating Opera, which is about a lawyer and his supposed last day on earth, written very much with a flavor of legalisms, which I found quite convincing even though Barth, as far as I know, had no conventional legal training. It was written when Barth was 24-years old. It, too, has a revised edition, which takes that nihilism one frightening step further. I recommend reading both. The difference is only in the last chapter or so. Although either edition is completely persuasive as a stand-a-lone.
   2083. BDC Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:52 AM (#5578673)
The French Lieutenant's Woman is one of my top few favorite books. I used to read it every couple of years but the latest re-reading is long overdue.
   2084. Greg K Posted: November 20, 2017 at 07:54 AM (#5578674)
Post-modern historians love The End of the Road, as it jumps into a lot of the things historians didn't start talking about until the 90s or so.
   2085. Morty Causa Posted: November 20, 2017 at 08:06 AM (#5578675)
Well, they should likewise be taken by The Floating Opera, whose ending in the revised edition is like the knife-slash across the face in Psycho.
   2086. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 20, 2017 at 08:06 AM (#5578676)
I have submitted a new Goodreads thread, so watch for it. :)
   2087. Lassus Posted: November 20, 2017 at 08:46 AM (#5578679)
Well, Lassus has been outgrumped.

I highly doubt that. Real estate.

J.E. and his Weekly Standard garbage a distant, microscopic 2nd place.
   2088. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2017 at 09:02 AM (#5578681)
Well, Lassus has been outgrumped.

I highly doubt that. Real estate.

J.E. and his Weekly Standard garbage a distant, microscopic 2nd place.


That's not really fair to National Review, The Washington Examiner, and The Daily Caller. JE's trusted sources of information may only be an inch deep, but they're many miles wide.
   2089. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 20, 2017 at 09:39 AM (#5578688)
The Floating Opera...too, has a revised edition, which takes that nihilism one frightening step further.


As I recollect, the "revised" edition was actually Barth's original ending, which the publisher felt was too pessimistic. So, being young and eager to get published, Barth gave them the softer landing. Once he had a few books under his belt, he was able to get them to bring out the original.

If my recollection is incorrect, someone please correct me.
   2090. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 09:40 AM (#5578689)
That's not really fair to National Review, The Washington Examiner, and The Daily Caller. JE's trusted sources of information may only be an inch deep, but they're many miles wide.


Oh Juan can do better than that. He once cited /pol as a credible source.

Read and learn, normies.

Media sources have characterized /pol/ as predominantly racist and sexist, with many of its posts taking explicitly alt-right and neo-Nazi points of view. The Southern Poverty Law Center regards /pol/'s rhetorical style as widely emulated by white supremacist websites such as The Daily Stormer; the Stormer's editor, Andrew Anglin, concurred.
   2091. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5578698)
/pol has so many trolls on it that trolling the forum is basically pointless. Pretty much everyone one there gets labeled a troll, a shill, or a Jew at some point. If I ever figure out Juan's account name there I'll let y'all know.
   2092. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:29 AM (#5578710)
Man, I love me some Monk. I have worn out Monk's Music (Art Blakely on drums for that, with Coleman Hawkins and John Coltrane on sax!) Straight no Chaser, and Round Midnight, but I really hate those long solos, particularly the drums.
   2093. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5578718)
First album that I bought with my own money (a cousin gave me her scratched-up old copy of Hard Day's Night about 1969, along with the 7"s of Help & the Stones' Satisfaction & 19th Nervous Breakdown -- talk about life-changing) was Simon & Garfunkel's Bridge Over Troubled Water. Not ... every typical of what I was into, then or (defintely) afterward, but that's how much I loved the track Cecilia, which for some reason I couldn't find on 7" to save my life at either outlet (a corner mom & pop grocery store near where we lived & a record shop in back of a sporting-goods store in the college town one county over) available to me. I still can't stand the title track.

Second LP, bought as a cutout at the aforementioned grocery (also the source of Bridge) -- the Ohio Express' Beg, Borrow & Steal.
   2094. Morty Causa Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5578722)
As I recollect, the "revised" edition was actually Barth's original ending, which the publisher felt was too pessimistic. So, being young and eager to get published, Barth gave them the softer landing. Once he had a few books under his belt, he was able to get them to bring out the original.

If my recollection is incorrect, someone please correct me.


That's exactly my reading of what happened, too. Like I said, it was his debut novel published in 1956. After The End of the Road and The Sot-Weed Factor and Giles Goat-Boy, he had leverage.
   2095. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5578723)
Whodunnits are compelling because the reader should be compelled to change their own mind several times due to the clues presented.

That's precisely why they're not compelling. The reader/viewer is jerked around several times and when the murderer is revealed it's someone he couldn't have possibly guessed from the clues -- or, at least, the murder was no more likely than any other suspect that was presented.

Take the genre back.


Ray prefers his mysteries more intellectually challenging, like on Hawaii 5-0.


Concession accepted.
   2096. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5578724)
There’s no polite way to put this: Anne Wojcicki’s mom thinks A-Rod’s a moron.

In a profile of her 23andMe exec daughter — who dated Alex Rodriguez for most of 2016 — Esther Wojcicki told the New York Times, “I liked A-Rod, he was a very nice man,” and that “he seemed to be genuinely in love with Anne. But I right away figured out this was a mismatch. He had no academic background. We couldn’t have an intellectual conversation about anything. His main interest in life was something that none of us had ever focused on, which was baseball.”

Of Rodriguez’s new girlfriend, Esther said, “I wish J.Lo all the luck in the world.”


Interesting comment. I've never heard ARod talk about a subject other than baseball, but given how articulate he is I'd be surprised if he couldn't hang in conversations about everyday life, or current events, etc., with intelligent observations.

   2097. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 20, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5578729)
Band on the Run was my first album. Good one.
   2098. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5578730)
A second Franken accuser. I'm no fan of Al Franken, but it's hard for him to defend against accusations such as the below, and moreover it's wrong to lump him in with the likes of Weinstein which is implicitly what's happening: all inappropriate conduct is being dumped into the same "sexual assault" bin without any effort to rank the conduct.

A woman ​said Sen. Al Franken ​grabbed her buttocks ​as they posed for​ a photo at the Minnesota State Fair, leaving her feeling “uncomfortable” and “gross,” ​​an accusation that comes just days after a former model said the Democratic lawmaker kissed and groped her in 2006, according to a report on Monday.

Lindsay Menz, 33, told CNN that she went to the fair with her husband and father in 2010, two years after Franken had been elected to the senate, and they stopped by a booth where local politicians were taking photos with their constituents.

As she stood next to the Democratic lawmaker waiting for her husband to snap a picture, Franken “pulled me in really close, like awkward close, and as my husband took the picture, he put his hand full-fledged on my rear,” Menz said. “It was wrapped tightly around my butt cheek.”

“It wasn’t around my waist. It wasn’t around my hip or side. It was definitely on my butt,” ​Menz recalled, saying ​Franken kept his hand on her for three or four seconds. “I was like, oh my God, what’s happening.”

...

Franken, in a statement to CNN,​ ​said he did not remember taking the photo with Menz ​but said he’s sorry that she felt disrespected.

“I take thousands of photos at the state fair surrounded by hundreds of people, and I certainly don’t remember taking this picture,” Franken said. “I feel badly that Ms. Menz came away from our interaction feeling disrespected.”
   2099. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5578746)
Latest Trump tweet: I should have left them in jail

Now that the three basketball players are out of China and saved from years in jail, LaVar Ball, the father of LiAngelo, is unaccepting of what I did for his son and that shoplifting is no big deal. I should have left them in jail!


Your TDS is unlikely to pass. Better seek treatment.

But for full context, NY Post:

The polarizing patriarch of a family he believes is basketball royalty spoke to ABC on Sunday in his first comments since Trump attacked him, expressing bewilderment that Trump would even care what Ball thought about his son being spared from a trial in China over shoplifting.

Ball had been resistant to thank Trump for his role in getting LiAngelo Ball back to the United States, which led to Trump’s furious tweet saying he would have left Americans to face Chinese punishment if he knew he would not be properly thanked. Ball still doesn’t know why Trump thinks he deserves credit.

“Did he go visit them in jail? Did you go visit them in jail?” Ball told “Good Morning America” producer Michael Del Moro. “If you went to visit them in jail then I would say, ‘Thank you.’”

After indulging ever so slightly in a back-and-forth, Ball, who nearly never no-comments, said he wanted to avoid further inflaming a feud with the president. Ball is set to appear on CNN for an interview Monday night, though.

Trump did not go visit the three UCLA basketball players in jail. What he did while on a trip overseas was ask Chinese President Xi Jinping for assistance in the case in which the players were accused of shoplifting, an act to which they admitted guilt upon returning stateside. They had been facing three to 10 years in prison if convicted, and all three players — LaVar’s middle son LiAngelo, Cody Riley and Jalen Hall — thanked Trump for taking a personal interest.

LaVar, however, has not paid his respects.

“Who?” Ball told ESPN on Friday about Trump, who had happily taken credit. “What was he over there for? Don’t tell me nothing. Everybody wants to make it seem like he helped me out.”


Unclear why Ball's expression of gratefulness would turn on whether Trump went to visit the players in jail. That analysis flowchart is bizarre.
   2100. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 20, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5578747)
Interesting comment. I've never heard ARod talk about a subject other than baseball, but given how articulate he is I'd be surprised if he couldn't hang in conversations about everyday life, or current events, etc., with intelligent observations.

He certainly is articulate and seems crazy baseball smart. He does not seems like an intellectual, but could probably hold his own in cultural stuff. That said, he probably did not have much of en education and probably is not interested in books. I would take it with a grain of salt as the woman who said it comes from a very high brow family and now ARod and her daughter are broken up. Looking at he wikipedia page, it says she is the first college educated person in family. She came from Russian Jews who escaped to the US in the 30s. I wonder what she would have thought of her parents or grandparents in terms of education.

Not a nice thing to say.
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