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Monday, November 13, 2017

OTP 13 November 2017: Politics, race now touching every sport

Like legions of Giants fans who hate the Los Angeles Dodgers, Le rooted for the Houston Astros to beat them in the World Series. But he changed his mind, swallowed hard and began cheering for the Dodgers after Yuri Gurriel, a Cuban-born Astro, hit a home run against Japanese pitcher Yu Darvish then was caught on camera pulling the corners of his eyes with his fingers in a racist gesture.

“I couldn’t really be OK with them winning any longer,” Le said of the Astros.

With Gurriel’s gesture, yet another major sporting event in the United States came to be viewed through a prism of race, politics or both.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:05 AM | 1997 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, dodgers, politics, world series

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   601. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5576089)
Before He Was Tapped By Donald Trump, Controversial Judicial Nominee Brett J. Talley Investigated Paranormal Activity

The excerpt in #573 seems to obscure it, but Talley has had some success as an author of horror novels. He's not quite Stephen King, but apparently he has progressed from a hobbyist to enjoying some commercial success. The interest in the paranormal seems to be a cross between research and book promotion, not a matter that could be seriously suggested to affect his suitability as a federal judge.
   602. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5576091)
Plus, if my two year old son is to be believed (and I can't imagine that he'd lie), ghosts are real and everywhere, all the time.

WoooOOOOooooOOOOoooOOOooooOOOOOooooo
   603. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5576092)
"I am going to tell you something very strange: it was she who seduced me."


The fact that men typically initiate things in heterosexual sex doesn't mean there's a "power imbalance."

Lefties have yet again gone off the cultural rails with this whole "power imbalance" thing, taking a sane and balanced concern like actual sexual assault and conflating in things like an appealing man asking a woman on a date, or trying to kiss her.

It's like a perennial feature of American culture.

It just never, ever fails.

   604. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5576093)
The excerpt in #573 seems to obscure it, but Talley has had some success as an author of horror novels. He's not quite Stephen King, but apparently he has progressed from a hobbyist to enjoying some commercial success. The interest in the paranormal seems to be a cross between research and book promotion, not a matter that could be seriously suggested to affect his suitability as a federal judge.


I guess he'll just recuse himself when the Ghostbusters reboot gets around to re-doing Ghostbusters II.
   605. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5576097)

The fact that men typically initiate things in heterosexual sex doesn't mean there's a "power imbalance."
True. The fact that someone has more power than someone else means there's a power imbalance.
   606. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5576098)
True. The fact that someone has more power than someone else means there's a power imbalance.


Sure thing, Dworkin.

You're fooling no one, by the way.
   607. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5576101)
So, ethics question. I went grocery shopping a little while ago. I saw 6 packs of Guiness bottles on sale buy one get one free. So I bought 4. When i got to my car to check the receipt, as I bought a lot of BOGO stuff and wanted to make sure I got the proper credit. The guiness 6 packs rang uo as ndividual bottles for $1.69 ea. So instead of getting charged for 4 6 packs at $10.29 ea, and refuned 2 of them for a total of $20.58, I got charged 4 X $1.69, or $6.76. If this were to happen to you, do you:

a) Go back into the store and point out the mistake to customer service?

b) Drive home and accept the bank error in your favor? or

c) go back into the store and buy more?
   608. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5576102)
C'mon - a 14 year old girl being raised in Alabama by a single mother in the 70s, the district attorney - these people have the same social (and physical!) power. Who could doubt that?
   609. dlf Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5576103)
Shorter dlf: Moore is odious both personally and professionally.


Since I'm trying one day to take over Walt Davis' crown as champion of very little that I write is short ...
I can add one more personal anecdote that goes to Mr. Moore's professional character.

At the time that Moore was first elected to the Alabama Supreme Court, the wife of one of my then law partners was already an Associate Justice on that Court. My partner was very involved in state politics, had been chair of the state R party, and was fiscally very conservative. Almost 100% of my dealings with his wife were personal rather than professional, but she was one of the first in the wave of Republicans elected to the appellate courts in the state and her written decisions tended towards the conservative end of the spectrum. Another Associate Justice at the same time had fairly recently been elected to that bench, but before then, he had the honor of being my faculty advisor and Con Law professor in law school. That professor would have been a favorite of David's - a pretty traditional libertarian in spirit who read the law very narrowly and who, like the wife of my law partner, was also a Republican when elected.

So shortly after Moore was first elected, word gets back that the inner workings of the court - how it functions administratively rather than the quality of its judicial rulings - had gone to hell. There was a huge turnover in career civil servants around the court like the librarians and docket clerks, and replacements were largely cronies from Gadsden who had no relevant experience. Files weren't being processed, hearings not scheduled, and it was a mess. Then the disputes moved into chambers - the conferences where the Justices were supposed to meet to decide which cases they accepted or who would author what opinions fell apart. Then, Moore started to solicit primary opponents to run against the sitting R Justices; after Moore was removed from office for refusing to follow a federal court order, his aide ran against, and defeated my (then former) law partner's wife basing his campaign solely on Moore's removal.

If that were the basis of my concerns, I would worry only that he would be ineffective in any role of leadership. But it is his abhorrent professional views(*) I listed previously that make him unfit, a belief that is only bolstered by the recent child molestation allegations.

(*)See for example, the concurring opinion here: DH v. HH Sorry, I don't know how to link just to the concurrence, but it is about 1/2 way down under REVERSED and REMANDED.
   610. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5576106)
This is hardly a modern thing -- with very, very few exceptions -- one is far better off staying away from any (honest) biographies of composers, writers, painters, etc.
Ms McGunnigle's English lit dissertation heavily featured a guy who massacred Irish peasants, an enthusiastic torturer, a guy who helped burn witches, and a murderer. They wrote a lot of great stuff!
   611. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5576107)
What women? We're talking about girls. (And a district attorney.)

And the entire premise of his is dumb. Power imbalance is not restricted to men having power over women. Power imbalance of men over men, women over men, and women over women is just as problematic as that of men over women.


Quiet. The adults are talking. And the adults don't have a fevered desire to pretend that there are no differences between men and women.
   612. BDC Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5576108)
b) Drive home and accept the bank error in your favor

Things like your Guinness experience have happened to me from time to time, but I also know that there are errors in the store's favor sometimes: something coded wrong, something mistakenly shunted aside and not bagged to go out with me, etc. I see these as averaging out.
   613. Shredder Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5576109)
d) Not buy Guinness at all because it's essentially black, foamy water?
   614. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5576110)
C'mon - a 14 year old girl being raised in Alabama by a single mother in the 70s, the district attorney - these people have the same social (and physical!) power. Who could doubt that?


As if that's what anyone's talking about, and the only place the "power imbalance" is being alleged.

   615. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5576114)
As if that's what anyone's talking about, and the only place the "power imbalance" is being alleged.
No, people are also talking about employers and employees.
   616. Traderdave Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5576115)
Misirlou:

The tag on the Guinness wasn't a price, it was an invitation to begin negotiating. You chiseled em down like a champ.
   617. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5576116)
The sexual harassment problem is almost exclusively male boss over female employee. Let's not pretend that Disclosure accurately portrayed reality.
   618. Omineca Greg Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5576117)
d) Not buy Guinness at all because it's essentially black, foamy water?


It's interesting to me that although I enjoy eating and drinking a lot of different things, even bitter things (Unicum, bitter melon, fernet branca) for beer, for me, bland is A-OK! I do not like the highly hopped brews, or even the moderately hopped ones. I even like the taste of fresh hops! But not once it gets in the beer. I don't know why.

The Guinness Brewery in Dublin is an excellent place to visit.
   619. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5576118)
d) Not buy Guinness at all because it's essentially black, foamy water?
I bought this a couple of weeks ago. The Guiness Draught was by far the worst of the 4 beers.
   620. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5576122)


For those of you who are Democrats and enjoy seeing the GOP in chaos, or for those of you who are theocratic child molesters, good news: Moore doesn't seem to be backing down at all.
   621. Lassus Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5576123)
Seems appropriate:

Prince - Pussy Control

(I wouldn't bother watching the video.)
   622. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5576125)
I know I'm shocked that a man who went after 14 year olds and refused to faithfully execute his duties as a judge (twice!) can't find the moral fiber to withdraw from the election.

Really now. What were people expecting.
   623. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5576126)
Not to mention the President of France, who met his wife when one of them was a 39 year-old teacher and the other a 15-year old student.

And yet no scandal has sunk his political career!


Age of consent in France is 15 years old. Which isn't enforced criminally.

Morality is relative to time and place in most times and places outside of moral panic.
   624. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5576128)
Quiet. The adults are talking. And the adults don't have a fevered desire to pretend that there are no differences between men and women.


This is bizarre. I have never pretended there is no difference between them. You should read what I write and not listen to the voices.

The sexual harassment problem is almost exclusively male boss over female employee.


Which changes nothing at all, even if true. Sexual harassment where a woman harasses a man is just as bad as the reverse. How common something happens does not determine whether it is OK or not.
   625. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5576129)
In even more sordid Moore news, his wife released an open letter from 50 Alabama pastors expressing support for him. (Some people immediately noted that 50 is not exactly a big number for pastors in Alabama, and that the list was missing the biggest name pastors.). But... it turns out that this was actually a letter that they had issued during the primaries; Moore's wife just recycled it as though they were expressing support for him now. Several have already said, "Um, we don't support him anymore."
   626. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5576131)
For those of you who are Democrats and enjoy seeing the GOP in chaos, or for those of you who are theocratic child molesters, good news: Moore doesn't seem to be backing down at all.


As expected. There are two parties who might surprise us. The Alabama GOP could act to change things - move the election or whatever. The Alabama voters might elect Jones over Moore. Everyone else's opinion is mostly moot until after the election, assuming Moore stays in the race (which seems very likely).
   627. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:19 PM (#5576132)
Disclosure was depicting a single event. While male bosses harassing female subordinates is the most common arrangement, as female bosses have become more common, they've become more common among the harassers (and obvious, male bosses harassing male subordinates have never been terribly rare).
   628. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5576133)
Which changes nothing at all, even if true. Sexual harassment where a woman harasses a man is just as bad as the reverse.


No, it isn't. There's a physical power/threat difference and a stigma difference.
   629. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5576134)

Age of consent in France is 15 years old. Which isn't enforced criminally.

Morality is relative to time and place in most times and places outside of moral panic.
Not only is this wrong, but you humorlessly missed the joke. Macron was the 15-year old student in that story.
   630. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5576136)
That doesn't really justify it. People are raining down on Moore right now -- and rightfully so. But one of the reasons is that he sought out relationships with 17 year olds.


Classic Ray.

"Hmmm, the lefties here seem to have Moore dead to rights. How can I turn that to my advantage and embarass them about that? I know. Jerry Seinfeld once had a long term relationship with a woman who he first dated when she was 18. 17 is pretty close to 18, yes? And Moore dated 16 year olds. 16 is close to 17 also, yes? So, Moore is simply being accused of what Seinfeld did, and no lefties here are bashing Seinfeld. Perfect!"

I can almost hear the cackling.
   631. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:22 PM (#5576137)
The political ramifications of the GOP losing a Senator are pretty large. I mean it is obvious, but just to point out the obvious, going from 52-48 to 51-49 is a huge deal. The GOP was having a big problem getting things through the Senate as it is with a two vote cushion, losing one vote off of that really hurts. Pence has already had to deploy his tie breaker multiple times this year (I read somewhere 5 times).
   632. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5576138)
No, it isn't. There's a physical power/threat difference and a stigma difference.


So you think women sexually harassing men is OK? Or is it just less bad? And are you talking legally or ethically?

Because I think you are tragically incorrect is suggesting there should be a difference between the two, both are wrong.
   633. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5576139)
Which changes nothing at all, even if true. Sexual harassment where a woman harasses a man is just as bad as the reverse. How common something happens does not determine whether it is OK or not.


Since men are, on average, better able to physically threaten a woman than vice versa, it's not, on average, exactly as bad.
   634. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5576140)
When I see Mel Gibson flicks, I don't think "Horrid antisemite I can't watch this."


I'll be happy to start watching Mel Gibson movies again once he's dead, and no longer able to profit from my interest in the work. Call it the Klaus Kinski solution.
   635. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5576142)
Classic Ray.

"Hmmm, the lefties here seem to have Moore dead to rights. How can I turn that to my advantage and embarass them about that? I know. Jerry Seinfeld once had a long term relationship with a woman who he first dated when she was 18. 17 is pretty close to 18, yes? And Moore dated 16 year olds. 16 is close to 17 also, yes? So, Moore is simply being accused of what Seinfeld did, and no lefties here are bashing Seinfeld. Perfect!"

I can almost hear the cackling.


Classic Misirlou.

"Here, let me tell more lies about Ray."

I've not pulled any punches for Moore. I've said he was a despicable person and should step down. I specifically called Clapper out for his veiled support of him.

But please -- go on and pretend I never did any of that, liar.

I didn't bring up the Seinfeld thing, wiki says Seinfeld's girlfriend was 17, and I thought Moore was also accused of seeking out 17 year olds. My only point was one of consistency. An honest person would have summarized it similarly.
   636. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5576143)
   637. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:27 PM (#5576146)
How Do Republicans Plan to Pass Their Tax Plan?

Huzzah! Jim Puzzanghera and Lisa Mascaro of the LA Times have finally written a story explaining the obvious: the Republican tax plan is doomed unless it’s deficit neutral in 2028 and beyond. Which it isn’t. In fact, it’s worse than I thought: they report that even a temporary business tax cut would probably increase the deficit past 2028 and therefore violate the Byrd Rule. So what are Republicans planning to do about this?


GOP desperation to both pass something and to cut taxes on the rich is the irresistible force, the GOP chaos, civil war, and Senate rules are the immovable object. At long last we will find out who wins.
   638. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5576147)
No, it isn't. There's a physical power/threat difference and a stigma difference.

So you think women sexually harassing men is OK? Or is it just less bad? And are you talking legally or ethically?


Not OK. Just less bad. Ethically, not legally. (Though good luck with a male plaintiff.)

Because I think you are tragically incorrect is suggesting there should be a difference between the two, both are wrong.


Yes, both are "wrong." Thank you. But since we're not giraffes, we can tell degrees of something. One is less wrong than the other.
   639. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5576149)
If Trump's nominated me to the judiciary, this is the first I'm hearing of it.

Wouldn't surprise me, though. He may have heard I'm looking for a job.
   640. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5576150)
For those of you who are Democrats and enjoy seeing the GOP in chaos, or for those of you who are theocratic child molesters, good news: Moore doesn't seem to be backing down at all.


I find that this is usually the biggest problem with modern martyrs... they generally seem to ignore one of the key necessities to actually being a martyr.
   641. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5576152)
Not only is this wrong, but you humorlessly missed the joke. Macron was the 15-year old student in that story.

I'm well aware of Macron's story. Also, age of consent is 14 in Germany.

Goddamed Europeans.

I also note that "child molesting" becomes "misbehavior" for you when it's an entertainment figure rather than politician.

As for Creepy Roy Moore, if we apply Zonk's Clinton standard, no worries.

As for Gore asaulting the massage therapist, who doesn't become enraged with no happy ending?

/jk
   642. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5576153)
And here I previously thought that Roy Moore was going to be fine up until the "dead woman or live man" threshold ... but it turns out Roy Moore supporters have a different yardstick!


Let's be clear.

We don't know if Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore creeped on underage girls 40 years ago, as the Washington Post outlined in a deeply reported story Thursday.

We can't know. It's his word against the words of four named women, who consistently and independently recalled how Moore, as a grown man, vied for their teenage affections.

And we don't know if it will affect the Dec. 12 election between Moore and Democrat Doug Jones. Republicans contacted Thursday blamed the whole thing on Democrats, or maybe on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and the swamp itself.

Moore supporters wouldn't believe any of it, as one GOP stalwart put it, unless Moore was "caught on video with a dead boy or a goat."


al.com

You go, Alabama!
   643. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5576154)
Which changes nothing at all, even if true. Sexual harassment where a woman harasses a man is just as bad as the reverse. How common something happens does not determine whether it is OK or not.


Since men are, on average, better able to physically threaten a woman than vice versa, it's not, on average, exactly as bad.

True, but then individual cases of harassment shouldn't be decided by invoking "on average" as a reason for dismissing a case where a woman harasses a man. Last time I looked, there seem to be more than a few big women and smaller men.
   644. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5576155)
Since men are, on average, better able to physically threaten a woman than vice versa, it's not, on average, exactly as bad.


So women never physically threaten men? Finley's wife arrested on spousal abuse charges. Large professional athlete got physically attacked by his much smaller female wife. I guess everyone should have shrugged and said it was no big deal or something.

In aggregate, yes, men more often physically threaten and attack women than the reverse. And you know what? Threatening and attacking is the wrong thing, as is harassment. If someone threatens and harasses they have done two bad things.

Put another way it happens that more men harass, physically threaten and attack women than the reverse. That doesn't make any individual instance of the reverse less bad.
   645. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5576156)
And we don't know if it will affect the Dec. 12 election between Moore and Democrat Doug Jones. Republicans contacted Thursday blamed the whole thing on Democrats, or maybe on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and the swamp itself.

Moore supporters wouldn't believe any of it, as one GOP stalwart put it, unless Moore was "caught on video with a dead boy or a goat."

Ah, but what if he'd been caught putting a move on a 14 year old Chelsea Clinton?
   646. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:36 PM (#5576157)
#631:
The political ramifications of the GOP losing a Senator are pretty large. I mean it is obvious, but just to point out the obvious, going from 52-48 to 51-49 is a huge deal. The GOP was having a big problem getting things through the Senate as it is with a two vote cushion, losing one vote off of that really hurts. Pence has already had to deploy his tie breaker multiple times this year (I read somewhere 5 times).


The ramificationalistic flip side of those ramifications is that while Moore might power through this Obama-Clinton Machine smear crucifixion and retain the seat, Senator Moore's 2020 reelection campaign (and/or primary blood battle with the Swampy Establishment) will coincide with Donald Trump's. And that's something the GOP really wants to avoid.
   647. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5576158)
Okay, fess up: which of you is this?

A Trump Judicial Nominee Appears To Have Written About Politics On A Sports Website And Didn't Disclose It
Well, I've been a judge as long as he has...
   648. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5576159)
Not OK. Just less bad. Ethically, not legally. (Though good luck with a male plaintiff.)


I disagree with the substance here, but the point is more that many women have significantly more power than many men; therefore, the alleged "power imbalance" between men and women is absurd.
   649. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5576160)
Jerry Seinfeld once had a long term relationship with a woman who he first dated when she was 18. 17 is pretty close to 18, yes?

Cognitive dissonance is a helluva thing.
   650. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5576161)
Not OK. Just less bad. Ethically, not legally.


I think you are wrong and your ethics are screwy.
   651. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5576162)
Quoted in #642:
Moore supporters wouldn't believe any of it, as one GOP stalwart put it, unless Moore was "caught on video with a dead boy or a goat."


It's not Roy Moore's fault. Look how she was dressed!
   652. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5576163)
unless Moore was "caught on video with a dead boy or a goat."


Are live girls referred to as "goats" in your country?
   653. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5576164)
The Roy Moore circus is a veritable textbook example of The Decline. Religious nuttery meets dysfunctional, tribal politics meets social media's eclipse of reason.

And to think that Alabama is much richer than in 1979 and has PlayStation 4 and the SEC Network and everything. And the incidence of rickets might even be a bit lower, too!
   654. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5576165)
So women never physically threaten men?


Hey Drunky McDrunkerson - I put the phrase "on average" twice in one sentence. We can talk about both averages and dispersion.
   655. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5576166)
As for Creepy Roy Moore, if we apply Zonk's Clinton standard, no worries.


And if we apply the general Perros standard, nothing matters, lambs to the slaughter, everything sucks, a life of personal disappointment should be everyone else's problem, embrace the horror, support the worst because it makes other people mad, please please love me because I finally understand the juvenile nonsense of goth kids.
   656. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5576167)
The excerpt in #573 seems to obscure it, but Talley has had some success as an author of horror novels. He's not quite Stephen King, but apparently he has progressed from a hobbyist to enjoying some commercial success. The interest in the paranormal seems to be a cross between research and book promotion, not a matter that could be seriously suggested to affect his suitability as a federal judge.


I thought his name rang a bit of a bell, & indeed he's written some Cthulhu Mythos stuff.

As for the paranormal interest, it should no more be disqualifying than any other religion-oriented sentiment.
   657. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5576168)
"Here, let me tell more lies about Ray."

I've not pulled any punches for Moore. I've said he was a despicable person and should step down. I specifically called Clapper out for his veiled support of him.

But please -- go on and pretend I never did any of that, liar.


Yes, you have not defended Moore, and I didn't say you did. What I did accuse you of is minimizing his actions in order to make them appear to be no more than what Seinfeld did, and then use that as a cudgel to strike lefties with. It's what you always do when you find yourself on the same side as lefties, whether it be abortion, gay rights and so forth.
   658. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5576169)
We can't know. It's his word against the words of four named women, who consistently and independently recalled how Moore, as a grown man, vied for their teenage affections.


This isn't even true - given a bunch of opportunities to say it's not true, Moore's said things to the effect of "Well, I mean, I wasn't typically macking on fourteen year olds". and "if we did go out on dates, we did.", "It would've been out of my customary behavior."
   659. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5576171)
So, nothing on Jeff Sessions' outlandish "I now remember 1% more than my previous sworn testimony, but not the bad incriminating stuff" performance today? Or are we honoring the Attorney General's legal ethics by simply forgetting it?
   660. zenbitz Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5576172)
Higdon said that 85-90 percent of the time, they don’t discover any kind of paranormal activity.


10-15% of the time, they DO?

   661. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5576173)
I didn't bring up the Seinfeld thing, wiki says Seinfeld's girlfriend was 17, and I thought Moore was also accused of seeking out 17 year olds. My only point was one of consistency.


I'm pretty sure that most liberals don't think Alabama should elect Jerry Seinfeld to the Senate, either. I'm certainly willing to go on the record to that effect.
   662. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5576174)
655 -- concession accepted. How's the weather in your part of Canada?
   663. zenbitz Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5576175)
Andy has never seen Mad Max? I mean Road Warrior or Lethal Weapon, sure.
   664. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5576176)
So, nothing on Jeff Sessions' outlandish "I now remember 1% more than my previous sworn testimony, but not the bad incriminating stuff" performance today? Or are we honoring the Attorney General's legal ethics by simply forgetting it?


Apparently not, no. Seems kind of boring, relatively speaking.
   665. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5576178)
I'm pretty sure that most liberals don't think


Pretty much, yeah.

Alabama should elect Jerry Seinfeld to the Senate, either. I'm certainly willing to go on the record to that effect.


Because of his girlfriend of 20+ years ago?

Strange conclusion.
   666. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5576180)
but the point is more that many women have significantly more power than many men; therefore, the alleged "power imbalance" between men and women is absurd.

The part after 'therefore' does not follow logically from the part before it.
   667. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5576181)
#664:
Apparently not, no. Seems kind of boring, relatively speaking.


Nothingburgers: Over 38% Served
   668. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5576182)
The part after 'therefore' does not follow logically from the part before it.


OK, then put an "inherent" between "alleged" and "power."
   669. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5576183)
I put the phrase "on average" twice in one sentence. We can talk about both averages and dispersion.


Sure, but why does "on average" impact the ethics of individual acts?
   670. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5576184)
655 -- concession accepted. How's the weather in your part of Canada?



Awwww... the morning attempt to have Clapper be your friend for a day didn't work, so you're now seeking out SBB in your lonesome search for love?

Sad.
   671. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5576185)
so you're now seeking out SBB in your lonesome search for love?


Sorry, I'm straight.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
   672. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5576186)
So, nothing on Jeff Sessions' outlandish "I now remember 1% more than my previous sworn testimony, but not the bad incriminating stuff" performance today? Or are we honoring the Attorney General's legal ethics by simply forgetting it?
I liked his testimony so much I changed my screen name.
   673. BrianBrianson Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5576187)
Sure, but why does "on average" impact the ethics of individual acts?


We weren't talking about an individual act. Individual acts can be evaluated individually. The general issue can be evaluated generally.
   674. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5576188)
This isn't even true - given a bunch of opportunities to say it's not true, Moore's said things to the effect of "Well, I mean, I wasn't typically macking on fourteen year olds". and "if we did go out on dates, we did.", "It would've been out of my customary behavior."


By that standard, since serial killer, necrophile, and cannibal Ed Kemper only had ten victims, he didn't "typically" kill, rape, and eat people, either. They were just a few isolated exceptions!
   675. DavidFoss Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5576189)
I'm pretty sure that most liberals don't think Alabama should elect Jerry Seinfeld to the Senate, either. I'm certainly willing to go on the record to that effect.

It's just off-topic. I don't see Seinfeld as being a very political comedian. Seinfeld dating a high school senior *was* considered scandalous at the time. If he was running for Senate in the spring of 1993, I don't think he would have won.

And everyone seems to be mixing up the terms harassment, molestation and assault. I thought you guys were all lawyers. Using an absurd hypothetical, if Ruth Bader Ginsberg told Arnold Schwarzenegger that they had to go on a date or he's fired (or gets crappy assignments, or whatever) -- that's harassment, no? It doesn't matter that he could snap her like a twig with his pinky finger. Yes, if you are larger you can fend off an assault... but not harassment. Are you going to beat the crap out of your boss (or prospective boss)?
   676. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5576191)
The general issue can be evaluated generally.


There is no "general issue" outside the impacted individuals.

A woman having greater power than a man is just that and no more, even if on average, men have more power.

Group rights and obligations are the things of fascism and are, therefore, quite best dispensed with.
   677. BDC Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5576192)
The Guinness Brewery in Dublin is an excellent place to visit

I agree! I was there about ten years ago and enjoyed the museum and the tour of the brewing process.

Dubliners will tell you that Guinness is better and better as you get closer and closer to the brewery. I don't know how much truth there is to this anymore, given 21st-century processing and packaging. But logically, having a pint at the brewery (which is the culmination of the tour, at a rooftop pub IIRC) should be perfection itself. And I did think it was a very good pint.

   678. zenbitz Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5576193)
Power imbalance in Sexual Harassment* has little to do with PHYSICAL power. Sexual Assault, sure. Picking up high school kids half your age... I dunno, unless you are literally picking them up.
Consent between teenagers and adults is -- as has been discussed here many times over the years -- a ... sticky situation? ... a slippery slope?.... OK, I'll see myself out.

There isn't really an empirical way of measuring how "healthy" a relationship is. Depends on the teenager and adult, or boss/subordinate, and overall situation. I didn't know about Seinfeld and Shoshanna - i've been all over the map TODAY as I found about a 17-year old, then no really 18, and the kinda reasonable gawker story. Still, it's not a good look.


* Including "consensual" relationships between work subordinates and supervisors.... which are also "not 100% wrong".

   679. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5576194)
So, nothing on Jeff Sessions' outlandish "I now remember 1% more than my previous sworn testimony, but not the bad incriminating stuff" performance today? Or are we honoring the Attorney General's legal ethics by simply forgetting it?


Was going to pop in on a couple statements, but it's been such a tour de force that it felt like the sort of thing best left for the complete wrap-up.

That's been one of the hallmarks of Trumpism -- individual nuggets that would normally elicit the "Whoah... wait" are best set aside until the whole meal is cooked. These folks don't believe in snacks - everything's gotta be a gorging.
   680. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5576195)
There are relative truths, and absolute ones. That each human being -- and the human race as a whole -- are destined for extinction like every other living creature on the planet doesn't mean not caring about life.

Puts these discussions in a little perspective. I admire several participants detachment from petty give and take. But as in real life, most people like a little drama to distract them from their fate.
   681. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5576196)
It's just off-topic. I don't see Seinfeld as being a very political comedian. Seinfeld dating a high school senior *was* considered scandalous at the time. If he was running for Senate in the spring of 1993, I don't think he would have won.


Amusingly - wikipedia tells me that Trump tormentor Spy magazine did very much make some hay of it....
   682. dlf Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5576197)
Okay, fess up: which of you is this?

A Trump Judicial Nominee Appears To Have Written About Politics On A Sports Website And Didn't Disclose It


I'll admit to posting about Alabama football on one of the other OT threads on this site. And back on the old BaseballBoards website, I posted using a somewhat similar handle - bamadan vs. bamainboston - to his. But I promise I'm not him.

But as long as we are at it, how about a little tinfoil conspiracy talk. Talley clerked for Joel Dubina, who has now taken senior status, but was then on the 11th Circuit. Dubina(*) was nominated to fill the seat left by the late Robert Vance(**) who is the, as far as I know, last federal judge assassinated, in his case, by a mail bomb sent by a disgruntled litigant. Clearly, this raises the question of whether Brent Talley's obviously close and direct ties to a murderer are disqualifying. Bares mentioning ...

(*) Dubina's daughter, Martha Roby, is gef's Congressperson, having been elected to serve central Alabama when she was nearly closer in age to Moore's targets than she is to my current age.

(**) An aside: Vance's son, Robert Vance, Jr. is a state court judge who ran against, and narrowly lost to Roy Moore the last time Moore was elected to the Supreme Court.

   683. zenbitz Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5576198)
a) Go back into the store and point out the mistake to customer service?

b) Drive home and accept the bank error in your favor? or



Eh. Might depend how far away I am from the register. I think if see them ring it up wrong right there I am more inclined to tell them I think they are making a mistake. Once I'm in the car... no way.
   684. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5576199)
Are you going to beat the crap out of your boss (or prospective boss)?


Do I have a stretchy band in this hypothetical?
   685. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:03 PM (#5576200)
But did Jerry ask permission? Did her mom go "nice catch"?
   686. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:03 PM (#5576201)
I thought his name rang a bit of a bell, & indeed he's written some Cthulhu Mythos stuff.
Interesting, I have a pretty good collection. Will have to check later to see if I have any of his stories in various anthologies.

According to TideFans.com, user BamainBoston joined the site in March 2005, and has published 16,381 posts. The user's most recent activity was on Monday at 2:58 p.m. The user indicated on a profile page that they were born in 1981, graduated from the University of Alabama, and were located in Boston.
Also interesting. While I find it odd that he's being criticized for not disclosing this account (unless it was tongue-in-cheek?) it is surprising how prolific he is. 16K+ posts on a football blog, while also writing at least part time, AND working in the Alabama Attorney General's office (and then the DOJ!)--where does he find the time?

The post quoted in this article was posted at 10:40 on a Monday morning. Ah.
   687. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:03 PM (#5576204)
Seinfeld dating a high school senior *was* considered scandalous at the time.

It had zero effect on his career, which doesn't seem very scandalous. Not widely know and mildly titillating would appear to be more accurate descriptions of the contemporaneous reaction.
   688. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:03 PM (#5576205)
All alcohol sales are final.
   689. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5576206)
We weren't talking about an individual act. Individual acts can be evaluated individually. The general issue can be evaluated generally.


I think we are talking past each other. I don't think sexual harassment "featuring" women harassing men is any less bad than any other type of sexual harassment. There might be individual factors in specific cases that make one case of harassment more or less bad, but I don't think the gender of the parties matters. I don't think what Kevin Spacey did (is accused of doing) is any better (or worse) because it was aimed at men.

I am not sure how a general evaluation of the situation changes any of that, but I am willing to listen.
   690. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5576208)
I don't see Seinfeld as being a very political comedian

Isn't he one of many comics who refuse to play college campuses anymore? Seinfeld took a little heat over the yeara for some of the show's caricatures of minority characters.
   691. DavidFoss Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5576211)
It had zero effect on his career, which doesn't seem very scandalous. Not widely know and mildly titillating would appear to be more accurate descriptions of the contemporaneous reaction.

Basically, the scandal played itself out, but at the time, it was on all the tabloids and entertainment shows for a few weeks. People thought it was kinda creepy. Then she turned 18 and he went public with it and took her to red carpet-type events for a few years until they broke up and they both married other people.

I don't see the Moore analogy. Sounds more like a gender-reversed Macron.
   692. Satan Says Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5576213)
I don't see the Moore analogy. Sounds more like a gender-reversed Macron.

Entertainers are largely given a pass. Nobody's burning their records 'cos Prince or Mick Jagger had a taste for underage groupies.
   693. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5576215)
Seinfeld dating a high school senior *was* considered scandalous at the time.

It had zero effect on his career, which doesn't seem very scandalous. Not widely know and mildly titillating would appear to be more accurate descriptions of the contemporaneous reaction.


Neither did Ted Nugent's...

If I didn't know better, I'd almost say Clapper doesn't really give a ####.

FTR - you're free to enjoy Stranglehold as much you like. Though overrated, it's still one of the better 70s arena rock guitar licks.



   694. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5576217)
True, but then individual cases of harassment shouldn't be decided by invoking "on average" as a reason for dismissing a case where a woman harasses a man. Last time I looked, there seem to be more than a few big women and smaller men.


Lofl.

It's not about about size and weight, Andy, but strength.
   695. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:28 PM (#5576218)
So women never physically threaten men? Finley's wife arrested on spousal abuse charges. Large professional athlete got physically attacked by his much smaller female wife.


Sigh. Are you really this clueless about the way the world works?

He couldn't fight back. Not because he was physically unable. But because he had dignity.

Such as Jay Z in the elevator getting attacked by Beyonce's sister, and just standing there and shielding himself. He didn't fight back. But it wasn't because he was outclassed in the fight. And the sister still committed assault and battery on him.

Please with this.
   696. DavidFoss Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5576219)
If I didn't know better, I'd almost say Clapper doesn't really give a ####.

Well, it is a 'safe' Republican seat so I could see the unfairness of having an 'October surprise' like this lose a seat for the R's for 3 years. What I am hearing is the best strategy for this Jones guy is to lay low and not say anything... just attract the anti-Moore vote. Even if he does win, he has almost no hope of winning reelection in 2020.

Best case for the R's is that Moore wins and he gets unseated, the Governor reappoints Strange and they hold a do-over special election. Worst case is that they are one vote down for three years.
   697. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5576221)
Not widely know and mildly titillating would appear to be more accurate descriptions of the contemporaneous reaction.


I remember knowing and not caring. There's no reason for me to care, and so I didn't. Why would I? It presents zero issues worthy of my attention.

And at roughly the same time, Catherine McKinnon was all on about how pretty much all hetero sex is rape (*) and yadda yadda and I kind of chuckled at the stupidity of it then, as I chuckle about the stupidity of such drivel now in its barely altered guise, though unfortunately modern communications permit it to spread far easier.

(*) The Harvard Crimson, March 9, 1993. At least they published it:

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can bombast about the evils of bigotry at one moment while breathing forth their own form of prejudice in the next. A prime example of such hypocritical bigotry was the Law School Coalition for Civil Rights (CCR) rally on Friday, February 26 in support of granting tenure to University of Michigan law professor Catharine MacKinnon, a longtime advocate of state-enforced censorship and sex discrimination.

MacKinnon's published writings reflect a venomous hatred for men as a class, stereotyping all men as rapists, and display contempt for heterosexuals in general. Wild animadversions such as "marital sex is sexual harassment is rape" and "heterosexuality is the eroticization of dominance and submission" full her speech and writings. (Ironically, MacKinnon herself recently married a feminist man, demonstrating that even she doesn't believe her absurd claims about marriage being rape.) MacKinnon asserts that nearly all heterosexual sex is rape, questioning even "whether consent is a meaningful concept." MacKinnon believes that sex constitutes rape if a woman who consented to sex subsequently regrets her choice, stating that "I call it rape when a women has sex and feels violated." Writing in the New York Times ("The Palm Beach Hanging." December 15, 1991), MacKinnon claimed that all men "are sexually trained to woman-hating aggression."

MacKinnon has a long and sordid record of attacking free speech. In 1983, she authored a Minneapolis ordinance, soon declared unconstitutional, that outlawed most sexually suggestive art and literature depicting women under the guise of fighting pornography. Under this ordinance, she and her longtime collaborator, Andrea Dworkin, who believes that all heterosexual sex is rape, advocated banning from the City of Minneapolis French and Indian art films, avant garde art, and even Rolling Stones album advertisements. MacKinnon has spent years lobbying for the enactment of similarly repressive ordinances in numerous other cities and states, including Massachusetts.

As ugly and divisive as MacKinnon's sentiments are, she has a right to free speech. But her hatemongering should not win her tenure at Harvard, nor should it take the place of balanced scholarship as a required academic credential. For CCR, which claims to champion civil rights, to endorse her candidacy reflects utter hypocrisy. No civil right is more important than free speech, and few are more precious than the equal protection of the law. Only Orwellian doublespeak can justify granting a bigoted censor tenure under the guise of promoting civil rights. Who will CCR support for tenure next? Leonard Jeffries? [/quote}
   698. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5576222)
It's just off-topic. I don't see Seinfeld as being a very political comedian.

Self-consciously so. Whatever the opposite of a controversialist is, that's Seinfeld.
   699. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5576223)

I also note that "child molesting" becomes "misbehavior" for you when it's an entertainment figure rather than politician.
That is false. The conduct determines the label.
   700. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5576224)

Isn't he one of many comics who refuse to play college campuses anymore? Seinfeld took a little heat over the yeara for some of the show's caricatures of minority characters.

This sounds familiar (him saying that he doesn't play colleges, I forget the reasoning he gave). I can't imagine Seinfeld has a tremendous university-student following anyway. His humour is of another age. Which I don't necessarily mean as a criticism, but Seinfeld is a very technical joke-smith in a sense that looks incredibly old fashioned in today's comedy world.
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