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Monday, August 14, 2017

OTP 14 August 2014: The American Pastimes of Rock ’n’ Roll, Baseball and Poetry

Maybe poetry and politics don’t mix. “I don’t want to get off into a whole thing about history here, but the Statue of Liberty is a symbol of American liberty lighting the world,” said Stephen Miller, a White House senior adviser, when he was challenged, recently, about the Trump administration’s proposal to restrict immigration. “The poem that you’re referring to was added later. It’s not actually part of the original Statue of Liberty.”

The poem, “The New Colossus,” was written by Emma Lazarus, who is being celebrated at the 92nd Street Y with works by 19 young poets inspired by her words. While the text wasn’t finally affixed to the base of the statue until 1903, the poem was commissioned in 1883 — three years before the statue opened — to raise money for the pedestal. Speaking of poems, more than 700 commercial, university and independent presses have contributed 3,000 items to the 2017 Poets House Showcase through Aug. 26 at Poets House in Battery Park City.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2017 at 07:18 AM | 3273 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2401. dlf Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5516651)
Well, it wasn't a century later, and it wasn't during the civil rights era, but yeah, well after the war. Stephens went in in 1927, Jefferson Davis and James George, a signer of Mississippi's secession document 1931, Virginia put Lee in in 1934, Alabama put in Joe Wheeler in 1925, Florida Edmund Kirby-Smith in 1922.


I don't know about the others (well, except for Jefferson Davis) but Wheeler's selection is certainly not limited to or even primarily due to Civil War actions. Wheeler was an eight term Congressman and, at least if you believe the plaque at Wheeler State Park (where you can do some really great bass fishing up near Decatur / Muscle Shoals), was instrumental in formulating policies in Congress that helped heal the divide. He then served as a General in the Spanish-American War (as the commander over Teddy Roosevelt and his Rough Riders) and again in the Philippines during that war. He wouldn't be my first choice for a statue, but unlike Davis, did something other than participate in a failed rebellion on behalf of slavery.
   2402. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:14 PM (#5516654)
   2403. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:18 PM (#5516662)
This is either a visual representation of the latest Trump approval poll, or it's a photo of the real Long Dong Silver.

The linked image is totally safe for work, if you operate a sex trafficking ring.
   2404. Covfefe Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5516664)
Ketchup and noodles. In Arizona.
   2405. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5516668)
I don't know about the others (well, except for Jefferson Davis) but Wheeler's selection is certainly not limited to or even primarily due to Civil War actions. Wheeler was an eight term Congressman and, at least if you believe the plaque at Wheeler State Park (where you can do some really great bass fishing up near Decatur / Muscle Shoals), was instrumental in formulating policies in Congress that helped heal the divide. He then served as a General in the Spanish-American War (as the commander over Teddy Roosevelt and his Rough Riders) and again in the Philippines during that war. He wouldn't be my first choice for a statue, but unlike Davis, did something other than participate in a failed rebellion on behalf of slavery.


Yes, I know Wheeler did more than just serve the Confederacy. So did Davis, who was a Congressman, Senator, cabinet secretary, and served in the Mexican War. Wheeler's extra Civil War accomplishments were more than that of Davis, that's for sure, and Wheeler is the least objectionable of the Confederates so honored.
   2406. dlf Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5516675)
2405 - I should have said "after" rather than "other" in my final line; after his service in the CSA, Wheeler was just getting started, Davis did nothing of note.

Odd aside: Jefferson Davis High School in Montgomery, AL, located roughly five miles from the original "White House of the Confederacy" (which is practically next door to MLK's Dexter Avenue Baptist Church) is overwhelmingly African American. When I moved from Montgomery, the city schools were roughly 50% AA but JD High is over 90%.
   2407. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5516682)
While I wouldn't be in favor of forcing any state to replace it's statues (let them speak for themselves about a state's choices), I would say the ones most in need of replacement, in order, are Davis, Stephens, George, Kirby Smith, and Lee. Absent any other far more qualified replacements, Lee might not make the list, but Virginia. Lee is there in lieu of Jefferson and Madison just to name a couple. Kirby-Smith is an obscure, yet major Confederate military leader. He should be replaced with Julia Tuttle, the so called "Mother of Miami", the only woman to found a major American city. I don't know who Mississippi could choose, but almost anyone would be better than the President of the Confederacy and some guy who signed the secession ordinance. As for Stephens, again, almost anyone would be a better choice. Apparently King is already honored, but how about Ray Charles or Jackie Robinson?

edit: Ok, Charles and Robinson, while born in Georgia, grew up elsewhere. Still, there have to be a million better choices than the VP of the Confederacy who did little else in his life. If no one else, Jimmy Carter. I mean, Michigan has Gerald Ford.
   2408. BDC Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:44 PM (#5516683)
I used to live near Stonewall Jackson Elementary in Dallas. Nobody may live near it much longer if an expedited renaming process succeeds.

District 2 trustee Dustin Marshall, which includes East Dallas and Lakewood, said Wednesday he supports changing the names of both schools.

"Naming these schools wasn’t about celebrating the military prowess of a Confederate general or teaching history. It was about establishing a symbol of control and dominance of the KKK dominated Dallas society at the time,” Marshall said. “The events in Charlottesville could easily have happened in Dallas. I think we should avoid enabling that and expedite decisions that would make it clear that Dallas is not a place that is going to tolerate that kind of racial hatred.”


Here in Arlington I live near Davis Drive, which I used to assume was named after Jefferson, but come to find it was named after an early 20th-century college administrator named EE Davis. His house still stands; the street is actually built sort of around it. Good thing I learned this before climbing up to tear down all the street signs :-D
   2409. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 10:52 PM (#5516685)
Says the guy who predicted Trump wouldn't win a primary


You're right; I had forgotten that Shipman said that.
   2410. DavidFoss Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:01 PM (#5516688)
There have been seven statues replaced over the years. Only one of them replaced was a Confederate.

Jabez Lamar Monroe Curry, Alabama (removed in favor of Helen Keller in 2009)


When I think of things named after Jefferson Davis, I always think of J.D. Hogg, but I guess it is extremely common including the parkway that goes to Reagan National Airport right across the river from DC.

I don't recognize the two honorees from my home state (MN). I guess Henry Mower Rice has a county named after him. Maria Sanford was the first female professor at the U of M.
   2411. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:05 PM (#5516691)
Student who attended Charlottesville white supremacist rally leaves Boston University after backlash

Watching (including sound, very important) this 42 year old college student tell his side of the story is encouraged
I agree. It illustrates what I described in 2111 when Ray rhetorically asked "how could anyone think that people who were at the march to oppose racism are bigots?" and argued that it "doesn't even make sense." That's exactly how white supremacists view themselves, and exactly who Trump was speaking to when he said these things, which is why they've been so delighted with Trump.
   2412. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:15 PM (#5516695)
I don't recognize the two honorees from my home state (MN). I guess Henry Mower Rice has a county named after him. Maria Sanford was the first female professor at the U of M.


A good number of these are anachronistic. The 2 NY guys died in 1812 and 1813. The most recent Rhode Islander died in 1796. PA's 2 died in 1807 and 1815, and neither of them is Ben Franklin. That's not to say than none of them are deserving. maybe all are. It's just that most of these were placed 100+ years ago, and there's little motivation to replace/update them. John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg is probably fine Pennsylvania specimen, but is he really representative of one of the greatest PAs today?
   2413. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:21 PM (#5516697)
When I think of things named after Jefferson Davis, I always think of J.D. Hogg, but I guess it is extremely common including the parkway that goes to Reagan National Airport right across the river from DC.

Actually, the parkway that goes past Reagan National Airport is the George Washington Memorial Parkway, which goes on to Mount Vernon. Jefferson Davis Highway is U.S. Route 1 in Virginia south of the Potomac River, although it does have a ramp to the airport. When I came to the DC area 40+ years ago, that stretch of road was almost always referred to as the Jeff Davis Highway, now Route 1 is more frequently used, in my experience.
   2414. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5516699)
I know he made a big deal about waiting for the facts. But he's not one who waits for facts, so I doubt that was the reason for his delay in the first place. So he lied about getting the facts. Yawn.


It's rather disgusting that you're bored by his lying,


I'm no more bored of his lying, I imagine, than you were of Bill's or Hillary's.

but setting that aside: Why do you think he lied? What was the point of "waiting for the facts" and then lying about what those facts were? Why lie to make Nazis look better?


He wasn't actually waiting for any facts (Did you think he was?). He came out with the second statement because there was an outcry over the first one.

So he had to justify why he "waited" even though he didn't wait at all, and he doesn't seem like the type to admit that he was browbeaten into a second statement.

Now, as to what the "point" of all of this is. It makes sense if, rather than starting from the premise that he's a Nazi supporter, you start from the premise that he views himself as a "law and order president." (He's used those exact words before.) He gets upset about violence and lawbreaking. (This seems to inform his illegal immigration stance as well.) And so he viewed this almost entirely from the violence and lawbreaking angle, and he saw violence and lawbreaking on "many sides." He said this right in his first statement:

"But we're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Va.. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society. And no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play or be with their parents and have a good time.


He likely didn't think it was his job to condemn Nazis (you'll recall he's new at this whole politician thing), and it seems so obvious anyway that Nazis are bad. It's not like there's a shortage of that message, or was a shortage on Saturday.

So I think his comments make sense if you start from the premise that he views himself as a "law and order" president. And so Nazis marching with a permit, however despicable they may be, are not breaking the law. Anyone instigating violence would be.

So that seems like a good place to start to view his actions if one is being reasonable. If however one is not being reasonable, or one can't fathom how Trump could be anything but a Nazi supporter, then that's what one will see, even _after_ he literally condemned Nazis.

   2415. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5516700)
There have been seven statues replaced over the years. Only one of them replaced was a Confederate.
Yeah, the replaced statues seem to be states coming up with someone better.

North Carolina's contributor to the statuary hall, Charles Brantley Aycock, played a major part in the campaign of organized violence against "fusionist" governments and black voting rights, which persisted in the state longer than anywhere else in the South. Aycock played a significant part in the Wilmington coup of 1898, and then as governor led the installation of Jim Crow in the state. The entirety of his legacy is white supremacy and organized violence against democratic institutions. Those of course were features and not bugs when his statue was sent to Washington, but they aren't anymore. His statue needs to go. Just crank out a Richard Petty in bronze and be done with it.
   2416. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:30 PM (#5516701)
So that seems like a good place to start to view his actions if one is being reasonable.


Which is what I did in post 2356:

One can only conclude that such images don't exist, and that Trump either:

1) thinks people marching with Nazis but not chanting are very fine people, or

2) knowingly lied in order to give aid and comfort to his base which at best merely sympathize with nazis and white supremecists, or

3) spoke off the cuff without full knowledge of the situation in hopes of achieving the same aim as #2.

3 is the most obvious, though any of the above are possible.
   2417. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:31 PM (#5516702)
Bannon says that he once confidently believed in the prospect of success for that version of the Trump presidency he now says is over. Asked what the turning point was, he says, “It’s the Republican establishment. The Republican establishment has no interest in Trump’s success on this. They’re not populists, they’re not nationalists, they had no interest in his program. Zero. It was a half-hearted attempt at Obamacare reform, it was no interest really on the infrastructure, they’ll do a very standard Republican version of taxes.

“What Trump ran on—border wall, where is the funding for the border wall, one of his central tenets, where have they been? Have they rallied around the Perdue-Cotton immigration bill? On what element of Trump’s program, besides tax cuts—which is going to be the standard marginal tax cut—where have they rallied to Trump’s cause? They haven’t.”
You spent the whole campaign saying, \"#### you" to the establishment. \"#### you; we don't want you or need you." So it's hardly surprising that the establishment isn't invested in Trump. Trump probably was dumb/ignorant enough to think that as president he could do what he wanted and Congress just had to go along with it. But I would've thought Bannon would have been smarter than that.
   2418. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:32 PM (#5516703)
If however one is not being reasonable, or one can't fathom how Trump could be anything but a Nazi supporter, then that's what one will see, even _after_ he literally condemned Nazis.


I don't think Trumpis a Nazi supporter as an ideaological position. I think he is a tacit supporter as a means to solidify or not alienate his power base.
   2419. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:33 PM (#5516704)
Also:

I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person. Accusing someone of being a Nazi sympathizer is among the worst accusations imaginable. And so to me you need to have something tangible. He marched with Nazis while in college; he was a member of his local KKK chapter as a 22 year old; someone found a secret collection of Hitler propaganda and swastikas in his attack; he posted Nazi sympathizing comments on bulletin boards. Something. Something tangible. And yet there has been nothing.

There seems to be no shortage of people from his past willing to say bad things about him, and yet not a single person from his past has come forward to say that he often made remarks fawning over Hitler, or remarks about killing Jews, or remarks denying the Holocaust. It's quite a rare unicorn: a Nazi sympathizer who nobody can find any evidence of such things despite having half a century to look.

Instead we get word games and mind reading and jaw movements. "Yes, he explicitly said Nazis were bad, but he also condemned these other people who were committing violence." CNN has nightly panels of psychics on, reading his mind to tell us that he's a Nazi supporter. It may be enough for you, and indeed it seems to be more than enough for you. It's not nearly enough for me. And I find that accusing someone of something despicable without evidence is itself despicable.

   2420. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:36 PM (#5516706)
North Carolina's contributor to the statuary hall, Charles Brantley Aycock, played a major part in the campaign of organized violence against "fusionist" governments and black voting rights, which persisted in the state longer than anywhere else in the South. Aycock played a significant part in the Wilmington coup of 1898, and then as governor led the installation of Jim Crow in the state. The entirety of his legacy is white supremacy and organized violence against democratic institutions. Those of course were features and not bugs when his statue was sent to Washington, but they aren't anymore. His statue needs to go. Just crank out a Richard Petty in bronze and be done with it.


Yeah, I missed that one. Their other contribution is NCs govornor during the Civil War.
   2421. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:38 PM (#5516707)

Actually, the parkway that goes past Reagan National Airport is the George Washington Memorial Parkway, which goes on to Mount Vernon. Jefferson Davis Highway is U.S. Route 1 in Virginia south of the Potomac River, although it does have a ramp to the airport. When I came to the DC area 40+ years ago, that stretch of road was almost always referred to as the Jeff Davis Highway, now Route 1 is more frequently used, in my experience.

And what's now I-395 inside the Beltway was then an extension of I-95.** Through the early 70's it was just called Shirley Highway, and IIRC with a Virginia road number designation.

This has nothing to do with the Civil War, but I thought I'd like to add a non-political note.

** Which ended in a ghost I-95 that was planned to go through the District and connect to I-95 leading to Baltimore. You could see the dotted lines for the "proposed" I-95 highway in Road Atlases up through the 70's and maybe even into the 80's. Until sometime in the late 70's the Beltway was just labeled I-495 all the way around, with no part of it also being called I-95 as it is today.
   2422. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:38 PM (#5516708)
Steve Bannon now claims that he chose to leave the White House because it was the one-year anniversary of his joining the Trump campaign. You know, the classic "odometer" theory of public humiliation.


Well, clearly Bannon resigned because Trump was too much of a racist for him. Or wasn't enough of a racist for him. Or Bannon was fired because Trump didn't think he was enough of a racist. Which would be interesting, because Bannon was supposed to be the raciest racist who ever lived, at least this side of Trump.

It all gets so confusing to sort out. One thing we absolutely know is that the following logic is impeccable:

"Bannon's a racist, Trump should fire him!"
<Bannon is fired or resigns.>
"Oh my god this is so bad for Trump, once again we see that Trump can't do anything right!"
   2423. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:41 PM (#5516709)
I'm no more bored of his lying, I imagine, than you were of Bill's or Hillary's.
It was totally and absolutely unforeseeable that when backed into a corner about Trump, Ray would try to change the subject to Hillary Clinton.
   2424. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:42 PM (#5516710)
I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person. Accusing someone of being a Nazi sympathizer is among the worst accusations imaginable. And so to me you need to have something tangible. He marched with Nazis while in college; he was a member of his local KKK chapter as a 22 year old; someone found a secret collection of Hitler propaganda and swastikas in his attack; he posted Nazi sympathizing comments on bulletin boards. Something. Something tangible. And yet there has been nothing.

There seems to be no shortage of people from his past willing to say bad things about him, and yet not a single person from his past has come forward to say that he often made remarks fawning over Hitler, or remarks about killing Jews, or remarks denying the Holocaust. It's quite a rare unicorn: a Nazi sympathizer who nobody can find any evidence of such things despite having half a century to look.

Instead we get word games and mind reading and jaw movements. "Yes, he explicitly said Nazis were bad, but he also condemned these other people who were committing violence." CNN has nightly panels of psychics on, reading his mind to tell us that he's a Nazi supporter. It may be enough for you, and indeed it seems to be more than enough for you. It's not nearly enough for me.


Again, my theory is that Trump doesn't want to alienate the Nazi/Nazi sympathizer/"I'm not a racist but I can see the Nazis make some good points" part of his base, thus he condemns both sides and praises fine people on both sides, to give that wing of his support base an out to allow them to continue to support him. He mouths the words thant condemn the Nazis, but his additional words and deeds show he really doesn't mean it. That doesn't make him a Nazi sympathizer necessarily, but it does make him deplorable.
   2425. zenbitz Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:46 PM (#5516711)
there is a Nathan Bedford Forrest statue Nashville but it's SO hideous I kinda think they should leave it up and people can leave mocking notes. He was one of the worst.
   2426. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:49 PM (#5516712)
there is a Nathan Bedford Forrest statue Nashville but it's SO hideous I kinda think they should leave it up and people can leave mocking notes. He was one of the worst.


Beautiful, beautiful statue. we will never be able to replace it. Unless we can get the sculptor of the Ronaldo bust

Kate McKinnon did a great bit on SNL about this bust:

"When sculpting a bust, you must first ask yourself, 'What would the subject look like if he were having a stroke?'"
   2427. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:50 PM (#5516713)
I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person.
Ray has heard some people say that Barry Bonds was a good player. Ray's withholding judgment until someone can find some evidence of it, though. He hasn't seen any, yet, but unlike SBB he's scrupulously fair, so if someone can show him some, Ray will admit it. If. Because probably if there were any evidence of it, it would have been found by now.
   2428. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:51 PM (#5516714)
If however one is not being reasonable, or one can't fathom how Trump could be anything but a Nazi supporter, then that's what one will see, even _after_ he literally condemned Nazis.

I don't think Trumpis a Nazi supporter as an ideaological position. I think he is a tacit supporter as a means to solidify or not alienate his power base.


Wow. This may actually be worse. You don't even think he is ideologically a Nazi supporter, but you're content to accuse him of being one anyway. Based on no evidence of such, such as Trump caught on a hot mic saying he was tacitly supporting Nazis just to solidify his power base, or a witness coming forward to say such, or anything. No evidence at all. Just mind reading and you don't like the way he said something, despite nobody sane thinking that he's a great wordsmith to begin with.
   2429. DavidFoss Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:51 PM (#5516715)
Actually, the parkway that goes past Reagan National Airport is the George Washington Memorial Parkway

Thanks for the clarification. I was googling it this morning because they were thinking of renaming it and google maps paints the JD yellow like its a highway and the GW two blocks closer is white. But I've never been there.

In the LA area, all the freeways were originally given nicknames but they aren't used. It is always just the number which is *always* preceded by 'the'. "The 10", "the 405", "the 101".
   2430. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:52 PM (#5516716)
It was totally and absolutely unforeseeable that when backed into a corner about Trump, Ray would try to change the subject to Hillary Clinton.


What a bizarre comment. How many words did I write on this subject before her name came up?
   2431. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5516717)
Wow. This may actually be worse. You don't even think he is ideologically a Nazi supporter, but you're content to accuse him of being one anyway. Based on no evidence of such, such as Trump caught on a hot mic saying he was tacitly supporting Nazis just to solidify his power base, or a witness coming forward to say such, or anything. No evidence at all. Just mind reading and you don't like the way he said something, despite nobody sane thinking that he's a great wordsmith to begin with.


Yes. Absolutely. This isn't hard. He makes stuff up, hoping some of it is true, in order to give a pass to his most fervent supporters while doing what is required of him politically. It's very logical.
   2432. zenbitz Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5516718)
"Oh my god this is so bad for Trump, once again we see that Trump can't do anything right!"


Actually the response is universally "ding, dong the witch is dead".
   2433. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:55 PM (#5516719)
Again, my theory is that Trump doesn't want to alienate the Nazi/Nazi sympathizer/"I'm not a racist but I can see the Nazis make some good points" part of his base, thus he condemns both sides and praises fine people on both sides, to give that wing of his support base an out to allow them to continue to support him. He mouths the words thant condemn the Nazis, but his additional words and deeds show he really doesn't mean it. That doesn't make him a Nazi sympathizer necessarily, but it does make him deplorable.


This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. He's ruining his standing with tens of millions of people to court the support of the tiniest fraction of people? People who would probably vote for the name with the R next to it in any event, since if you're a white supremacist, the Democratic Party is hardly for you?

What in the holy hell.
   2434. tshipman Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:57 PM (#5516720)

I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person.


Let's just say you apply this principle unevenly.
   2435. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:58 PM (#5516721)
This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. He's ruining his standing with tens of millions of people to court the support of a tiny fraction of people? People who would probably vote for the name with the R next to it in any event, since if you're a white supremacist, the Democratic Party is hardly for you?

What in the holy hell.


Nazi/Nazi sympathizer/"I'm not a racist but I can see the Nazis make some good points" part of his base,


The first part is indeed tiny. The second part is small, but much larger than the first. The third part is a significant part of his base.

Why else would he flub such an easy layup of condemning Nazis, period, full stop? We both agree he's not the most articulate guy around, but one doesn't have to be Henry Clay or Cicero to just shut up and not undermine your previous statements.
   2436. John Shade has yet to hear the Squeak Posted: August 18, 2017 at 11:59 PM (#5516722)

He likely didn't think it was his job to condemn Nazis (you'll recall he's new at this whole politician thing), and it seems so obvious anyway that Nazis are bad. It's not like there's a shortage of that message, or was a shortage on Saturday.

So I think his comments make sense if you start from the premise that he views himself as a "law and order" president. And so Nazis marching with a permit, however despicable they may be, are not breaking the law. Anyone instigating violence would be.

So that seems like a good place to start to view his actions if one is being reasonable. If however one is not being reasonable, or one can't fathom how Trump could be anything but a Nazi supporter, then that's what one will see, even _after_ he literally condemned Nazis.
Give me a break.

So, he was so concerned with law and order that he sided with the group that had a permit? And he was so concerned about who had a permit that he lied and said that the counter-protesters didn't have a permit? And he so misunderstood the first amendment that he thought counter-protesters are required to have a permit in the first place? And he studied the friday night march so closely that he thought it was the counter-protesters who were interfering with the marchers? Since I'm pretty sure you still haven't watched this, I'll link to the point in the video where the large crowd of very fine people surrounds the bad people while chanting "White Lives Matter".

Remember again, this is the event that Trump specifically cited as an example of where the many very fine people were protesting quietly.
   2437. John Shade has yet to hear the Squeak Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:06 AM (#5516723)


This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. He's ruining his standing with tens of millions of people to court the support of the tiniest fraction of people? People who would probably vote for the name with the R next to it in any event, since if you're a white supremacist, the Democratic Party is hardly for you?

What in the holy hell.
My theory is that his analysis of this event is about as deep as SBB's. He sees picture of a bunch of young white men in polo shirts, khakis, and MAGA hats and he assumes lots of them must be good people. He sees lots of people on the other side who almost certainly oppose his presidency and he assumes they must have started the whole mess. Then he gets pressured to say that the nice young men in polo shirts are bad, and he doesn't believe it, so he tries to draw a distinction between them and the more outlandish looking neo-nazis. And he makes up a bunch of #### to justify that distinction.
   2438. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:07 AM (#5516724)
Nazi/Nazi sympathizer/"I'm not a racist but I can see the Nazis make some good points" part of his base,

The first part is indeed tiny. The second part is small, but much larger than the first. The third part is a significant part of his base.


The third part is small as well. Not that I even understand what the "third part" is in the first place; your description of it seems incoherent. Nor do I know a single person it applies to.

But even if we accept your above framing, your argument is essentially that he's alienating tens of millions of people to court people who would likely vote for him anyway. Because these people are not voting Democrat.

Or am I wrong? DOES the Democratic base comprise a significant portion of Nazi/Nazi sympathizer/"I'm not a racist but I can see the Nazis make some good points"???? If you think it does then I'll declare victory right here and now. Because if it does then you're saying the Nazi/etc voting bloc often swings between D and R, and if it doesn't then these people weren't going to vote for anyone but the R candidate anyway.
   2439. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:09 AM (#5516725)
The third part is small as well. Not that I even understand what the "third part" is in the first place; your description of it seems incoherent. Nor do I know a single person it applies to.


Casual racists. My father was one.

I know plenty. As do most people who don't live in an Upper West Side bubble.
   2440. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:10 AM (#5516726)
and yet not a single person from his past has come forward to say that he often made remarks fawning over Hitler

Donald Trump 'kept book of Adolf Hitler's speeches in his bedside cabinet'
Donald Trump reportedly owned a copy of Adolf Hitler’s speeches and kept them in his bedside cabinet.

A 1990 Vanity Fair article about billionaire businessman stated that Mr Trump’s then wife Ivana, said her husband owned a copy of “My New Order” – a printed collection of the Nazi leader’s speeches.

Marie Brenner, the article’s author, wrote: “Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, 'My New Order', which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed.

“Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.”

Asked by Ms Brenner about the claim and whether his cousin, John Walter, had given him the book, Mr Trump responded: “Who told you that?"

He went on to explain that it was "his friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he’s a Jew.”

Mr Davis told Vanity Fair: “I did give him a book about Hitler. But it was My New Order, Hitler’s speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.”

FFS, Ray.
   2441. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:12 AM (#5516727)
This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. He's ruining his standing with tens of millions of people to court the support of the tiniest fraction of people? People who would probably vote for the name with the R next to it in any event, since if you're a white supremacist, the Democratic Party is hardly for you?

What in the holy hell.


Ok, you make sense of it. Whatever Trump did or did not say, he is indeed ruining his standing with tens of millions of people. Why?
   2442. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:14 AM (#5516728)
#2440 - yeah, but do you think he ever read a page of it? Checkmate libtards!
   2443. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:15 AM (#5516729)
Once upon a time, before the season started, I correctly predicted that the Tigers would beat the Padres in the World Series. And then they did! But I didn't structure the next several years of my self-worth around my successful guess.
   2444. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:15 AM (#5516730)
One more note before I go to bed. I see that SBB has indeed run and hid like a coward in the face of evidence that his big blockbuster gotcha is indeed a fraud. Not surprising.
   2445. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:20 AM (#5516731)
This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. He's ruining his standing with tens of millions of people to court the support of the tiniest fraction of people? People who would probably vote for the name with the R next to it in any event, since if you're a white supremacist, the Democratic Party is hardly for you?
To be clear, this comment is coming from the poster who has spent the last six months criticizing -- nay, mocking -- any discussion of Trump's approval rating on the grounds that none of that matters because Trump is already president.
   2446. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:24 AM (#5516732)
#2440 - yeah, but do you think he ever read a page of it? Checkmate libtards!
Dunno, were any of the speeches 140 characters or less?
   2447. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:24 AM (#5516733)
Why else would he flub such an easy layup of condemning Nazis, period, full stop? We both agree he's not the most articulate guy around, but one doesn't have to be Henry Clay or Cicero to just shut up and not undermine your previous statements.


I can't fathom why you're having trouble with this question.

It's quite clear that he was simply unwilling to ignore the violence committed by the left.

As such he appears to, against all odds, be the only politician left with a conscience on this issue.

To "condemn Nazis, period, full stop," you have to ignore the violence committed by the left. That's what a "period, full stop" is. You've fully stopped. You can't continue, to point out the violence committed by the left, in any way, even a "more tactful" one.

For the first time posting here I actually feel sorry for all of your (the collective you) children. You folks are imparting such ridiculous, negative, life-altering lessons to them. "He supports Nazis! There's no other way to interpret his actions! Ignore what he says! Read his mind instead!" No fair-minded and reasonable person goes through life thinking the worst about people and concluding the worst based evidence that Jeane Dixon would have been embarrassed to present. Let alone imparting that silliness to others as a life lesson.
   2448. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:37 AM (#5516735)
I can't fathom why you're having trouble with this question.

It's quite clear that he was simply unwilling to ignore the violence committed by the left.

As such he appears to, against all odds, be the only politician left with a conscience on this issue.

To "condemn Nazis, period, full stop," you have to ignore the violence committed by the left. That's what a "period, full stop" is. You've fully stopped. You can't continue, to point out the violence committed by the left, in any way, even a "more tactful" one.


For the last time, it's not the violence by both sides that is the problem. The violence by the left, such as it was, has been stipulated to and condemned. It's the "bigotry and haters on many sides" and
"very fine people on both sides" that is the problem. I understand why you continue to ignore this, as it undermines your whole position. But that is the crux ofthe matter. If there was any hatred on the other side, it was hatred of bigots. if there were any "very fine people" on the other side, there is scant, if any evidence of them.
   2449. greenback is not cosmopolitan Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:37 AM (#5516736)
To "condemn Nazis, period, full stop," you have to ignore the violence committed by the left. That's what a "period, full stop" is. You've fully stopped. You can't continue, to point out the violence committed by the left, in any way, even a "more tactful" one.

What overarching principle generates such a grave concern for leftists beating up ####### Nazis? The ACLU's support of the Nazis comes from a belief that constitutional rights are there for all. Does Trump have any history of similar principles whatsoever about nonviolence for the socially oppressed? For example, does he have a history of fighting police brutality or even something like the My Lai massacre?

ETA: I mean, #2448 is accurate, but I think even if we grant your argument that point, your argument is still ####.
   2450. John Shade has yet to hear the Squeak Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:38 AM (#5516737)

For the first time posting here I actually feel sorry for all of your (the collective you) children. You folks are imparting such ridiculous, negative, life-altering lessons to them. "He supports Nazis! There's no other way to interpret his actions! Ignore what he says! Read his mind instead!" No fair-minded and reasonable person goes through life thinking the worst about people and concluding the worst based evidence that Jeane Dixon would have been embarrassed to present. Let alone imparting that silliness to others as a life lesson.
The staggering amount of hypocrisy contained in this paragraph is enough to make me call it a night. Have fun beating up the imaginary liberals in your head. I'm sure they're very impressed by you.
   2451. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:47 AM (#5516739)
#2440 - yeah, but do you think he ever read a page of it? Checkmate libtards!


Actually, a good argument that he didn't read it can be found right in the passage Lassus quoted; Trump didn't even know what the title of the book was:

Asked by Ms Brenner about the claim and whether his cousin, John Walter, had given him the book, Mr Trump responded: “Who told you that?"

He went on to explain that it was "his friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he’s a Jew.”

Mr Davis told Vanity Fair: “I did give him a book about Hitler. But it was My New Order, Hitler’s speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.”


So Trump didn't lie that he had a book; he didn't lie that Davis had given it to him. He tried to name the title, and got it wrong.

There would be nothing gained from lying about the title. The thing to be gained was in lying about having the book. Someone who was trying to hide that he had the book would have lied about having the book.

I've never read anything Hitler wrote. And if you asked me to name a book that he wrote, I would name Mein Kampf. It's the only thing written by Hitler that anyone who hasn't read anything by Hitler could name.

So this is it, Lassus? Your slam dunk rest your case moment? Someone gave Trump a book (Trump wasn't even interested enough in the subject to purchase the book himself) with Hitler's speeches in it that Trump's ex wife told her lawyer (presumably during the divorce proceeding) that Trump read from time to time, and yet Trump was apparently so interested in the Hitler propaganda in the book that he didn't even know what the title of the book was?
   2452. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:52 AM (#5516741)
To "condemn Nazis, period, full stop," you have to ignore the violence committed by the left. That's what a "period, full stop" is. You've fully stopped. You can't continue, to point out the violence committed by the left, in any way, even a "more tactful" one.
I guess, then, by Ray's logic Trump was condoning child molesting. After all, he didn't bring it up, so he didn't condemn it, so he was ignoring it.
   2453. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:52 AM (#5516742)
The staggering amount of hypocrisy contained in this paragraph is enough to make me call it a night. Have fun beating up the imaginary liberals in your head. I'm sure they're very impressed by you.


Teaching your kids to fear an imaginary bogeyman isn't a good look.

They start to assume the worst in everyone and fear that evil lurks behind everyone.

   2454. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:55 AM (#5516743)
Ray,

It was literally one of the examples you gave that would point towards Trump being racist. You're contradicting your posts within the same page now.
   2455. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:56 AM (#5516744)
What overarching principle generates such a grave concern for leftists beating up ####### Nazis?

It's been noted several times in this space that the antifa folks beat up at least 2 journalists in Charlottesville, which is consistent with their conduct elsewhere. Again, there is no justification for assaulting folks just because you, and many others, disagree with them, so I don't see how the "they were only punching Nazis" is a valid defense. They were punching others, too, so it's not even accurate.
   2456. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:58 AM (#5516745)
Here's my honest assessment of things:

Trump is not an actual neo-Nazi.

He's probably a casual racist. He might think that blacks are inferior or that Jews are sneaky and greedy or Mexicans are lazy or whatever, but in this respect he's probably not flagrant and probably not different than tens of millions of Americans. He can happily work with people of all races.

I don't think he'd believe any of the Zionist conspiracy stuff, because he certainly understands how money and power actually operate in the world. And he obviously has some highly placed Jews in his organization.

And he is definitely attracted to authoritarianism. You can just imagine someone like Putin or Erdogan chatting with him and saying, "why don't you just throw these journalists in jail?," and Trump responding, honestly: "I wish I could." That doesn't make him an actual Nazi by any means, but in a battle between the intolerant and the anti-intolerant (the intolerant of intolerance, yes, it's a paradox), his sympathies may tend to lie with the former.

I also think that he, at heart, has basically no principles beyond self-interest. He's a narcissist. He's definitely not guided by what he thinks is right, but by what he thinks is good for Trump. So he's not working from a bedrock faith in capital-L Liberalism, unlike most American politicians, even the many skeevy ones.

So, all that covered, why did he equivocate when asked to draw a distinction between nazis and anti-fascists? It would have been SO EASY to say what he knew people wanted to hear, and dispel the controversy.

His equivocation makes sense both politically and personality-wise. I do not think that Trump made a calculation along the lines of "Well, these alt-righters have been such strong supporters that I'm going to stick by them in this one." He was speaking off the cuff, more or less. He made no such calculation.

Trump has been zigging instead of zagging for years and it has been marvelously successful for him. The guy rode this contrarian strategy to the goddam White House so it's obvious why he'd fall back on it. And he's shamelessly plowed right past controversies that would have sunk other politicians. Basically, he's the least risk averse politician we've seen in decades. Playing it safe is going strongly against his instincts and what's already proven to be successful. Doing the apparently dumb thing has been smart for Trump, many times.

I also think he's just stubborn and childish. He often contradicts people in the most elementary way. "You're the pawn." He wanted to contradict the other people in the room.
I also think he buys his own bullshit. So when a room full of reporters (ie public enemy #1 in the avowed Trump worldview) clearly wants to hear him say X, no way is he gonna say X.

Now, he's not actually insane - he didn't say "I love Nazis," he was smart enough to say the opposite. He knew there was a line he shouldn't cross. He just put the line in the wrong place.

tl;dr - Trump is not a real Nazi and his comments were not a calculated effort to embolden the alt-right. His press conference was a simple impulsive response that's entirely in keeping with his personality, which has mostly paid him huge dividends.
   2457. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:59 AM (#5516746)
We can add "solar eclipse" to the list of things I don't care about.
   2458. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:02 AM (#5516747)
Jeeze that was long.
   2459. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:03 AM (#5516748)
As such he appears to, against all odds, be the only politician left with a conscience.

Holy crap.
   2460. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:06 AM (#5516749)
To "condemn Nazis, period, full stop," you have to ignore the violence committed by the left. That's what a "period, full stop" is. You've fully stopped. You can't continue, to point out the violence committed by the left, in any way, even a "more tactful" one.


You're putting a lot of emphasis on this phrase "full stop." Plenty of us liberals have agreed that it would have been absolutely appropriate for Trump or Obama or any other politician to have noted that the use of violence by the anti-Nazis was lamentable.
   2461. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:12 AM (#5516750)
You're putting a lot of emphasis on this phrase "full stop." Plenty of us liberals have agreed that it would have been absolutely appropriate for Trump or Obama or any other politician to have noted that the use of violence by the anti-Nazis was lamentable.


Right. Which is why what this basically all boils down to is "We don't like the way Trump agreed with us."
   2462. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:13 AM (#5516751)
PF's 2456 is about how I feel.
   2463. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:14 AM (#5516752)
Holy crap.


Take it nice and easy, Lassus. Tell us again how Trump was so steeped in My New Order that he thought he had read Mein Kampf.
   2464. Count Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:16 AM (#5516753)
He says racist things all the time and makes up lies about minority groups and pursues racist policies and earlier in his life discriminated against minorities, so I think he is racist. He is not a Nazi.
   2465. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:18 AM (#5516755)
Which is why what this basically all boils down to is "We don't like the way Trump agreed with us."


Ray, I'll give you the same softball question Trump got: "are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"
   2466. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5516758)
Ray, I'll give you the same softball question Trump got: "are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"


The question itself is of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety, but whatever, I'll dignify it with an answer: No.

   2467. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:28 AM (#5516759)
Tell us again how Trump was so steeped in My New Order that he thought he had read Mein Kampf.

You ask for something, you're given exactly what you ask for, you make things up in response. Your game is rigged. Feel free to play with yourself.
   2468. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:29 AM (#5516760)
The question itself is of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety


I don't see how.

I'll dignify it with an answer: No.


Great. Care to explain further? You're already doing better than Trump did.
   2469. zenbitz Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:33 AM (#5516761)
Trump's not a Nazi. Nazis have coherent principles and a philosophy. "Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism..."

I have seen random facebook stories about his dad getting arrested at a KKK rally in the 20s or something, but you know the internet...
   2470. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:36 AM (#5516762)
You ask for something, you're given exactly what you ask for, you make things up in response. Your game is rigged. Feel free to play with yourself.


You argued that Trump read a book. I think the ridiculousness of that argument speaks for itself.
   2471. Jay Z Posted: August 19, 2017 at 02:20 AM (#5516763)
Trump has been zigging instead of zagging for years and it has been marvelously successful for him. The guy rode this contrarian strategy to the goddam White House so it's obvious why he'd fall back on it. And he's shamelessly plowed right past controversies that would have sunk other politicians. Basically, he's the least risk averse politician we've seen in decades. Playing it safe is going strongly against his instincts and what's already proven to be successful. Doing the apparently dumb thing has been smart for Trump, many times.


This is a bit of an oversell. Trump does need to be given credit for winning. Conditions may have been favorable for (R) in the general; I don't think the general reflected a great campaign run by Trump. But, he got the nomination. Maybe Romney vs. Clinton is a bigger win for Team (R). But Romney ran in 2012.

There's also his multiple failed marriages, multiple bankruptcies, the fact that he name was apparently mud in any business dealings which forced him to get involved with the Russians. Trump is chalking up political enemies at a record pace, and just because he's dodged bullets to date, he's paid the piper before in his life and may yet again.

Then there's the question of accomplishments and legacy. Trump seems to view fame or infamy as ends in themselves. Fine for him, but others have other goals. I think it's possible that encouraging a mood of recklessness leaves us more vulnerable to a second Great Depression while team (R) is in power. Both due to his inaction/corruption and responses to it. Portions of Team (R) hated 2008 and Bush's role in the bailouts, hey, maybe they'll get their chance for more carnage. I probably fear economic depression as a real-world consequence out of this group more than war.
   2472. PepTech Posted: August 19, 2017 at 03:58 AM (#5516767)
I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person.
For the record, Trump is despicable not because he's any kind of Nazi, but because he's a sexist (grab 'em by the pussies), racist (Mexican judges), narcissist liar. He probably likes dogs though. Still despicable. Plenty of evidence for that.

------

Let's see if we can sum up the week in a few sentences.

Saturday: Trump said a bunch of commendable things (X), but threw in a huge blunder (Y) that caused a ton of grief.
Monday: Trump repeated X.
Tuesday: Called on to clarify what he meant by Y, Trump tripled down and insisted Y was not a blunder at all.

Throughout the week:

Trump Apologists: Trump said X! Trump said X! What is wrong with you people? Trump said X!
Non-Trump Apologists: What about Y?
Trump Apologists: Trump said X! I can't understand Y. You people going on about Y are crazy. Trump said X!!!! He did! He said X!!!!!! TWICE!

Since Y is clearly a blunder, the Apologists increasingly tie themselves in logical knots to justify their continued defense of Trump. They cite each other as authoritative, either ignore or mock anyone who attempts to give a reply, and either truly believe ridiculous assertions such as "Donald Trump is the only one with a conscience," or are playing non-apologists for trollbait.

Why is anyone still engaging on this topic?

-----

I'll cosign PF's 2456. Trump's not any kind of neo-Nazi, he just wants them to like him. He wants everyone to like him. Anyone who likes him is a fine person.
   2473. DavidFoss Posted: August 19, 2017 at 06:16 AM (#5516768)
He probably likes dogs though.

There is talk that he needs to get a pet. Every president except for Polk has had some sort of pet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_pets
   2474. Rockwell Posted: August 19, 2017 at 06:36 AM (#5516770)
Why is anyone still engaging on this topic?


Well, that one's simple -- because you know Ray's and my textual analysis is right and that we wouldn't be saying it was right if it wasn't. And you know that any historian in the year 2525 who unearthed the text and ran it against your interpretation would find the idea that Trump's remarks were Nazi-coddling to be insane. And you know it's right, but feel strongly anti-Trump and believe there's more to Trump and politics than pure rationality and textual analysis, so you're fervently making your case.

Our argument is your interpretation of the text is insane, and that's correct; your argument is that you need to look to things beyond the four corners of the text to get to the capital T truth about Trump. That philosophical difference is why you're still "engaging."
   2475. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 07:05 AM (#5516773)
I have seen random facebook stories about his dad getting arrested at a KKK rally in the 20s or something, but you know the internet...
It's not an Internet rumor; it's established fact. If you google it, you should be able to find the actual newspaper article.
   2476. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 07:54 AM (#5516775)
Yesterday, the Forward published a piece praising Richard Spencer's views on Israel. Now the rag goes after Gorka's teenage son.

This is what passes for left-wing Jewish journalism today. Beyond pathetic.

EDIT: Did editor Jane Eisner finally come to her senses?
   2477. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2017 at 07:57 AM (#5516777)
Ray:
There seems to be no shortage of people from his past willing to say bad things about him, and yet not a single person from his past has come forward to say that he often made remarks fawning over Hitler
Lassus, with no commentary other than "FFS":
Marie Brenner, the article’s author, wrote: “Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, 'My New Order', which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. “Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.”
Ray:
You argued that Trump read a book.

This is what you consider honesty, I guess.
   2478. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5516778)
Trump, in bed next to Ivana: "Hitler, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!"
   2479. manchestermets Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:04 AM (#5516779)
"I built a f***ing machine at Breitbart. And now I’m about to go back, knowing what I know, and we’re about to rev that machine up. And rev it up we will do.”


He's already refused to buy three Kellogs products today. Three!
   2480. manchestermets Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:07 AM (#5516780)
Still despicable. Plenty of evidence for that.


There's also the fact that he's repeatedly used his wealth to extort people less wealthy than him. Beyond anything even vaguely identity politics related, he's pure scum.
   2481. Rockwell Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:08 AM (#5516782)
LOL at the idea that there's something "Nazi-ish" about reading some of Hitler's rhetoric, or Mein Kampf.

Mein Kampf is for sale on Amazon.com.

   2482. Rockwell Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:12 AM (#5516783)
And wouldn't you know, ... My New Order is on sale at Amazon.com and appears to still be in print. Not just used editions.

I mean, yeah ... who would ever be interested in the words of Hitler's speeches? You'd have to be a Nazi.
   2483. Rockwell Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:20 AM (#5516784)
“Racism is evil,” he said in a terse speech delivered off a Teleprompter in a tight-jawed monotone.


This is Onion-level satire.
   2484. spycake Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:44 AM (#5516787)

Now, as to what the "point" of all of this is. It makes sense if, rather than starting from the premise that he's a Nazi supporter, you start from the premise that he views himself as a "law and order president


In the real world, there is a long history of emphasizing "law and order" in one's politics often going hand in hand with casual racism. I know a few Trump supporters, of similar age, and likewise northeners, who would never defend Neo Nazis per se, BUT, would absolutely react strongly against the removal of a statue of a white slaveowner as a "reverse racism" thing. And they would deflect from the Neo Nazi association, and be highly skeptical of the opposing side.

Heck, my Facebook had posts from my Midwestern hometown last Saturday, after the vehicular attack in Charlottesville, from a couple 30-somethings decrying the deprivation of white rights in America. And shrugging off any questions from others in the comments about Neo Nazis and the vehicular attack as a big "nothingburger" to them.

I'm pretty sure this is mostly Trump's line of thinking too. To the extent that he is playing for his supporters, I think he shares their general views and suspicions. And he has roughly the same level of filter as the Facebook posters, even when commenting as president on a tragedy...
   2485. DavidFoss Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5516788)
This is Onion-level satire.


Can something be satire and true at the same time? Comedians have complained about Trump because he is his own caricature.

This was an actual news report after his Tuesday press conference:

The president’s top advisers described themselves as stunned, despondent and numb. Several said they were unable to see how Mr. Trump’s presidency would recover, and others expressed doubts about his capacity to do the job.

In contrast, the president told close aides that he felt liberated by his news conference. Aides said he seemed to bask afterward in his remarks, and viewed them as the latest retort to the political establishment that he sees as trying to tame his impulses.


Trump *hated* reading that Monday speech and was much happier with the Saturday & Tuesday statements.
   2486. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:56 AM (#5516791)
Say, has PuffHo had to apologize for the "Goy, Bye" headline yet?
   2487. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:26 AM (#5516794)
Not much to say that hasn't been said, but catching up with the last few pages of this thread....my god. Ray, you're officially around the bend. Either that, or a willfully blind, morally-relative-in-moral-absolutist-drag (though I suppose "immoral" would've been shorter and just as accurate) sociopath, with an astonishing inability to see the forest for the trees.

Your work in this thread is an absolute monument to sticking your head up your ass and wallowing in it, which is to say: You're either the most deliberately disingenuous poster in this forum (no mean feat in climes populated by perros and SBB), or merely the dimmest. I'll let you choose which you find less unflattering. At this point engaging you would be both futile and repetitive of everyone else's yeoman's work in highlighting the bleeding obvious.
   2488. BDC Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5516797)
I find myself objecting so vehemently here because I have a principle that one should have evidence before one accuses someone else of being a despicable person

I sympathize to this extent: Let's say I know somebody. (Big "if," I know.)

I know that they aren't personally a racist. Somebody had the wrong impression of them based on some misapprehension, or maybe a true apprehension of something that can be explained or mitigated. I dunno, Grandpa still says "colored" but has given thousands to the NAACP, who still say "colored" too for that matter. Who knows. I'd be upset about somebody dogmatically calling them "racist." So you may feel about Trump. You don't know Trump, but we don't either (aside from Howie) and we shouldn't leap to conclusions about his inner nature.

But here's the thing. I don't give a #### about Donald Trump's heart or soul. He has been elected to play a role in our Government. He is playing it very badly. He says all the wrong things, and if occasionally he says a right thing, he qualifies it or "balances" it with a dead-wrong thing that gives aid and comfort to Nazis and Klansmen.

Contrast some mixed-bag Presidents past. Lyndon Johnson, recorded privately as being a pretty racist guy by instinct, stands in front of Congress to support the Voting Rights Act and says "We shall overcome." Bull####? How do I know. He got the Act passed. His racism does not matter.

Or Lincoln. Much of the "Lincoln was a racist" commonplace one hears comes from a tremendous passage in the Douglas debates that is indeed explicitly racist:

I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects—certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man.


That's 1858 in America. Every white person except Thoreau and Thaddeus Stevens is a racist. So is Abraham Lincoln. So what. He makes the clearest possible argument that, racism or no, slavery is immoral. Later he will free many, many slaves, by decree and by force. You gotta be judged by the rhetorical impact of what you say, and by how you back it up with actions, not by what's in your heart.
   2489. DavidFoss Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5516799)
Say, has PuffHo had to apologize for the "Goy, Bye" headline yet?


I found this and this with a quick google search. I'm not a HuffPo fan, but that's more than I was expecting.
   2490. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5516802)
For the record, Trump is despicable not because he's any kind of Nazi, but because he's a sexist (grab 'em by the pussies), racist (Mexican judges), narcissist liar. He probably likes dogs though. Still despicable. Plenty of evidence for that.

And yet (((Mr. Elliptical))) still can't manage to admit it. Maybe by 2018 2020, or maybe if Trump costs the Republicans control of Congress---some things are truly despicable..
   2491. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5516810)
Ben Sasse:


THE NEXT CHARLOTTESVILLE

Over the last week, many Nebraskans have told me some version of this: ‎“There are lots of us here who are ‎scared about where the country is headed. I think more violence is inevitable.” That much seems obvious. Less expected was where some of them went next. One of my constituents, a fairly energetic Trump supporter and a middle-aged man, told me:
**”To be clear, I think the alt-Right are a bunch of a**holes.”‎
**”And we should admit that the President has done a bad job getting us through this.”
**But “when the next rounds of violence come, I’ll bet you most of it will come from the left.”
**”And then some folks I know will respond in kind. It’s gonna be a powder-keg.”

My wife and I work hard to have chunks of family time that are “politics-free” in our home, but we haven’t been very successful this week. A few observations from our family tabletalk:

1. We have neglected the American Idea for a very long time. We haven’t done civics well in this country for decades, and we are reaping the consequences. We are a hollow people. We have “a whole lot of pluribus and very little unum,” to quote Ken Burns.

2. America is first and foremost an Idea – that all people are endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights. This universal human dignity is because God made us; it’s not because of our race, or our wealth, or even our religious beliefs, as important as disagreements about theology are.

3. White supremacy and racism are un-American, period.

4. The heartbreak in Charlottesville was the fault of the ‎white supremacists. Heather Heyer was murdered by an act of terrorism. The driver used his car to target public marchers.

5. Sadly, I think that the pessimistic Nebraskans I’ve been with this week are right that there will be more violence toward public assemblies in the future.

6. I expect that violence will come when white supremacists and the alt-right fight anarchist groups aligned with the extreme left.

7. What will happen next? I doubt that Donald Trump will be able to calm and comfort the nation in that moment. He (and lots of others) will probably tell an awful combination of partial truths and outright falsehoods. On top of the trust deficits that are already baked so deeply in, unity will be very hard to come by.

8. Besides ability and temperament, I also worry that national unity will be unlikely because there are some whispering in the President’s ear that racial division could be good politics for them.

9. I worry that some on the left are also going to salivate over these divisions. Like the President’s ear-whisperers, they see a divided nation as good for their political objectives.

10. Bizarrely, many on the center-left seem not to see that there is little that some on the President’s team would love more than to transform this into a fight about historical monuments.

11. I wish more folks understood how many of the monuments now being debated are not really from the post-Civil War period as a way to remember war dead. Rather, contrary to popular understanding, many of these statues were explicitly erected as Segregation Monuments in the twentieth century, during Jim Crow, as a way of shouting – against the American Idea – that public spaces were to be whites-only spaces. Tragically, many of these monuments were erected exactly when lynchings of black Americans were being celebrated in those communities – and the timing overlap here was not accidental. (It’s also worth noting that Gen. Robert E. Lee had opposed erecting Confederate Memorials because he worried, wisely, that they would become scabs of bitterness to be endlessly picked at.)

12. But I’m also against mobs tearing down the statues, or city governments removing them in the middle of the night. That doesn’t advance the civics discussion and debates we need; it just exacerbates the unhelpful “on both sides” grievance culture. Rather, we need an orderly debate about such monuments.

13. Every single place I’ve been this week, I’ve gotten a question like this:
**”Washington and Jefferson owned slaves; do we have to tear down their statues too?”
**”Explorer X didn’t treat native Americans the way he should have; do we abandon states west of the Appalachian Trail?”
**”Even Tom Osborne isn’t a saint; must we tear down the statute outside Lincoln’s Memorial Stadium?”
The people asking these questions (over and over and over) are not racist. Rather they’re perplexed by the elite indifference to their fair questions – about the “unnaming” movement now unfolding at Yale, for example. Most of these folks voted for Trump, to be sure, but many quietly admit to being dissatisfied with his leadership. But they have ZERO uncertainty about a choice between a Trump who would defend statues of Washington and Jefferson, and a national media elite who they assume would not defend monuments to Washington and Jefferson. That’s the divide many here are seeing and hearing. ‎

‎14. The white supremacists from Charlottesville now feel emboldened. They’re headed to another city sometime soon – with the express purpose of spreading their hateful rhetoric and inciting violence. This is the most attention they’ve received in years.

15. Tragically, there are some who want violence. Most Americans see the images from Charlottesville and our hearts break. We yearn for leaders, who raise high the exceptional American Idea of universal human dignity. But there are others who want to see these divisions exacerbated — not only the extremists on the ground but also some cable news executives who jump at division and know that what’s bad for America is good for ratings.

16. There is so much more nuance and texture inside local communities than broad-brush national “Crossfire”-like journalism usually distinguishes. One example from Nebraska right now: There seems to be a major gap on race issues between two types of generally Trump-supporting Republicans. Among more frequent church-goers, there is a lot more sadness and worry right now, whereas among more secular conservatives there seems to be a lot more “let’s fight.” I could be wrong, but that’s been my repeated experience this week.

BEFORE THE NEXT OUTBREAK OF VIOLENCE COMES

We have a glorious heritage in the American Idea, but we have neglected it at our kids’ peril.

This is the right time for each of us – parents and grandparents, neighbors and patriots – to pause and teach our kids again about universal human dignity and about love of neighbor. This is a time for discussion and education and humility, not intimidation and mobs and midnight wrecking balls. ‎

Let’s teach our kids why our First Amendment Society fights with debate, not violence. Let’s teach them that those standing in threatening mobs don’t stand with America. Let’s teach them that white supremacy is a cancer to our union. Let’s teach them to reject identity politics. Let’s teach them that all of us are created equal, with infinite dignity and limitless potential. Let’s teach them that what makes us Americans is not our skin, our wealth, or our religion but our shared creed. ‎

That creed, ironically, was put to paper most profoundly by a very fallen slave-holder, who spoke for the long-term future of America in writing that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights…” We eventually went to war to preserve a creedal “government of the people, by the people, for the people.” And that creed eventually perfected our union from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama, with the proclamation that “‎the goal of America is freedom.”

It feels like violence is coming. I’m not sure if this moment is like the summer of ’67 or not. But it might be. Before that violence strikes again, it’s up to us to reaffirm that exceptional American Creed again today, with our neighbors, and in our kids’ hearts.
   2492. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5516813)
BDC, barking up the wrong tree:

He has been elected to play a role in our Government. He is playing it very badly. He says all the wrong things, and if occasionally he says a right thing, he qualifies it or "balances" it with a dead-wrong thing that gives aid and comfort to Nazis and Klansmen.

SBB and RDP don't believe that he is saying the wrong things. Heck, SBB said that Trump's brave stand against the evil that is neo-Nazism is one of his great accomplishments.
   2493. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5516816)
-Denmark does not have many neo-nazis
-Trump has not bombed Denmark
-Trump hates neo-nazis.
   2494. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5516817)
[2473]He'd probably get something weird like a komodo dragon.
   2495. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5516821)
12. But I’m also against mobs tearing down the statues, or city governments removing them in the middle of the night. That doesn’t advance the civics discussion and debates we need; it just exacerbates the unhelpful “on both sides” grievance culture. Rather, we need an orderly debate about such monuments.

That highlighted part is the only one of Sasse's points I don't completely agree with. The problem is that the alternative in many cities to overnight removals isn't likely to be orderly debates, but rather a series of violent showdowns between the antifas and the Nazis / alt-rights.** I don't like to paraphrase one of Stalin's favorite sayings, but when it comes to addressing the specific issue of dealing with the violence surrounding Confederate statues, the truth of the matter is "No statue, no problem."

Obviously that doesn't resolve the underlying divisions that are causing the current Statue Crisis, but it does take away the physical symbol of the problem that attracted those alt-right scum (and the antifas) to Charlottesville, and will almost certainly attract them to similar symbols in many other places.

And after those statues are removed to a safe location, THEN you can have public hearings about what their fate should be going forward: Restoration to their original public location; relocation to a public museum (my choice) with appropriate accompanying background information; or physical destruction. The only alternative I wouldn't allow would be selling them to private individuals.

** Or unopposed violent removals of the type we saw in Durham, which provide moral catharsis and a fair amount of poetic justice, but little else on a positive note.
   2496. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5516830)
"how could anyone think that people who were at the march to oppose racism are bigots?" and argued that it "doesn't even make sense." That's exactly how white supremacists view themselves...

It takes a nation of millions to hold them back.
   2497. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5516834)
I don't like to paraphrase one of Stalin's favorite sayings, but when it comes to addressing the specific issue of dealing with the violence surrounding Confederate statues, the truth of the matter is "No statue, no problem."

Perhaps irony IS dead.
   2498. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5516835)
White supremacy and racism are un-American, period.

Didn't realize Sasse is blind, and never been provided the braile version of our founding documents.

Maybe he just ignores statuary without exposed breasts.
   2499. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5516837)
I don't like to paraphrase one of Stalin's favorite sayings, but when it comes to addressing the specific issue of dealing with the violence surrounding Confederate statues, the truth of the matter is "No statue, no problem."

Actually, wasn't the whole sh!t-show triggered by efforts to remove the statues? Not going to have many folks defending or celebrating memorials that are not being threatened. More generally, midnight removal of memorials is just another way to cave into the mob, often without public input or even authorization before changing the status quo. Such actions aren't really redeemed by saying "now we can talk" after the action has been taken. Mob threats should not dictate public policy on memorial statues, or any other issue. It's amazing that folks think statues that have been in place for a 100+ years, in many cases, are now the problem of the day. The American Left is aping the Talibam and ISIS in its intolerance of public art, and we should not go down this path, especially through a series of furtive midnight actions by public officials afraid to stand up for a more reasoned consideration of the issue.
   2500. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5516838)
Intolerance of intolerance.
Intolerance of tolerance.

They're not the same.
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