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Monday, August 14, 2017

OTP 14 August 2014: The American Pastimes of Rock ’n’ Roll, Baseball and Poetry

Maybe poetry and politics don’t mix. “I don’t want to get off into a whole thing about history here, but the Statue of Liberty is a symbol of American liberty lighting the world,” said Stephen Miller, a White House senior adviser, when he was challenged, recently, about the Trump administration’s proposal to restrict immigration. “The poem that you’re referring to was added later. It’s not actually part of the original Statue of Liberty.”

The poem, “The New Colossus,” was written by Emma Lazarus, who is being celebrated at the 92nd Street Y with works by 19 young poets inspired by her words. While the text wasn’t finally affixed to the base of the statue until 1903, the poem was commissioned in 1883 — three years before the statue opened — to raise money for the pedestal. Speaking of poems, more than 700 commercial, university and independent presses have contributed 3,000 items to the 2017 Poets House Showcase through Aug. 26 at Poets House in Battery Park City.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2017 at 07:18 AM | 3273 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2601. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:01 PM (#5517112)
Either strongly condemn Antifa or get saddled with the baggage.

Yoy're as bad as dictators Chabon and Waldman with this ####, which causes you.to miss the point that more than Sam are on record here supporting antifa violence against whoever they deem nazis.
People don't need a resurrection of McCarthyism, they need to stop with the "violence is okay against people I dislike."
   2602. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5517116)
Either strongly condemn Antifa or get saddled with the baggage.

Any antifa committing violence should be prosecuted and put in jail.

Your look in all of this is so, so, sad.

edit: but not as bad as Cletus Van Sophomore Sociology.
   2603. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5517121)
Apparently you missed the word "unequivocally," even though you boldfaced it. And you also missed all of the equivocation by Trump. Are you going to keep selectively quoting him, or are you going to be honest?

Once he makes his bold statement there is no "equivocation."

So I guess it's the first option.


Please. I've quoted Trump's words on this topic far more than anyone else here. (Indeed, it seems most people here have only read the snippets of them rather than the full comments.)
   2604. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5517122)
Without wishing to wade into today's Boston dustup, OJ is correct that Sam has specifically advocated repeatedly and often on these pages that violence against Nazi speech is justified.

Folks on these pages will have to deal with that. You can't just ignore it. Unless you're doing that whole Full Stop thing where painting a complete picture is prohibited.
   2605. greenback is not cosmopolitan Posted: August 19, 2017 at 09:51 PM (#5517126)
Your look in all of this is so, so, sad.

I don't know, the conservative bogey-group was the New Black Panthers, which had an obvious racist overtone. Moving their bogey-group to the antifa (whatever that is) is almost certainly a step forward.
   2606. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:00 PM (#5517130)
To be fair, several liberal posters have strongly condemned antifa violence and those here who support it. Non-violence as political commitment -- including political rhetoric and a respect for one's opponents -- needs to make a comeback.
   2607. Hot Wheeling American Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:08 PM (#5517133)
To be fair, several liberal posters have strongly condemned antifa violence and those here who support it.


You keeping a list, shithead?
   2608. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:36 PM (#5517145)
   2609. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:38 PM (#5517146)
   2610. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5517153)
Just a quick example of what it means to be living in your own reality and interpreting events so that they fit it.

From last night:

2346. Covfefe Posted: August 18, 2017 at 06:04 PM (#5516475)

Carl Icahn.... steps down from whatever it is he was doing with Trump.

2391. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 18, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5516601)

6 charities have announced cancelling events at Mar-A-Lago.

Advisor Carl Ichan has resigned.

Members of Trump's comittee on Arts and Humanities have resigned em-masse.

So much winning. I can't stand it.


Just another case of someone resigning because he or she didn't want to be associated with Trump, right?

Now let's imagine a reason Icahn resigned that has nothing at all to do with Trump:


Trump adviser resigned ahead of negative magazine story
Associated Press

WASHINGTON — Billionaire investor Carl Icahn, who resigned Friday from an unpaid post as President Donald Trump's adviser on deregulation efforts, stepped down as The New Yorker was preparing to publish a lengthy article detailing Icahn's potential conflicts of interest and questioning the legality of his actions.

Icahn said in a letter to Trump released Friday that he would resign to prevent "partisan bickering" about his role that Democrats suggested could benefit him financially.

The resignation came just three days before The New Yorker was scheduled to post its story online and begin selling printed magazines on newsstands. In the story, the magazine points out potential conflicts and even possible criminal law violations involving obscure rules that require oil refineries to blend ethanol into gasoline.

In his letter, Icahn wrote that he "never had access to nonpublic information or profited from my position, nor do I believe that my role presented conflicts of interest."

Again, once you're living in your own reality, everything you see is a confirmation of that. (An example is the hilarious "Hillary and Podesta are running a child sex ring out of a pizza place" hallucination.)


Wow, just wow. I'd say this is more incoherant than usual, but that's probably not fair. It's just the usual amount of incoherance.


Yes, yes, so very incoherent. Too much incoherence to even respond to.

Tell me: When you wrote the above bolded post, did you think that Icahn had resigned because Trump was supporting Nazis?
   2611. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM (#5517157)
Tell me: When you wrote the above bolded post, did you think that Icahn had resigned because Trump was supporting Nazis?


Now who's the mind reader?
   2612. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:10 PM (#5517158)
From the mass hysteria category:

Andrea Mitchell: "I'm an optimist. I have never been as discouraged as I've been this week about our country."

Andrea Mitchell is 70 and lived through the civil rights era.

Mika Brzezinski: We're at a low point in American history."

Mika Brzezinski is 50 and need not have been alive during slavery or the civil war.

And Wolf's insanity.
   2613. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:14 PM (#5517159)
Tell me: When you wrote the above bolded post, did you think that Icahn had resigned because Trump was supporting Nazis?

Now who's the mind reader?


Still you, since I'm literally asking what was in your mind at the time you wrote the post.

I'll wait for an answer to the question. Though I can see why you don't want to answer.

   2614. Covfefe Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:15 PM (#5517161)
Congratulations on Trump adviser resigning because he's crooked, not because he doesn't want associate with a white supremacist sympathizer I guess?
   2615. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5517162)
Congratulations on Trump adviser resigning because he's crooked, not because he doesn't want associate with a white supremacist sympathizer I guess?


Can I assume then, Zonk, that when you wrote the above post you thought Icahn had resigned because Trump was supporting Nazis?
   2616. Covfefe Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:23 PM (#5517163)
You may assume whatever you'd like. I freely admit that Trump is awful in so many ways that it does tend to become crapshoot as to why people denounce him, don't want to be associated with him, get last resort fired by him, or resign to get away from his aura of awfulness.
   2617. PreservedFish Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:52 PM (#5517164)

Andrea Mitchell: "I'm an optimist. I have never been as discouraged as I've been this week about our country."

Andrea Mitchell is 70 and lived through the civil rights era.


The civil rights era was when things rapidly started getting better. Why should she have been discouraged then?
   2618. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5517165)
The civil rights era was when things rapidly started getting better. Why should she have been discouraged then?


Rapidly? Like, with all deliberate speed?

   2619. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:13 AM (#5517168)
Rapidly? Like, with all deliberate speed?


Sure. I mean, what posssibly changed for a southern black man between 1962 and 1967?
   2620. PreservedFish Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:17 AM (#5517169)
Ray, is it your contention that Andrea Mitchell should have been discouraged about our country during the civil rights era?
   2621. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:22 AM (#5517170)
JE responds, #2592:
Like Oklahoma City, you mean?

A 1995 sighting!



Agree with JE. It's lame to bring up something so old. But did Nancy Pelosi's daddy sell the fertilizer to Timothy McVeigh's daddy?



Fernigal McG, #2539:
There is talk that he needs to get a pet. Every president except for Polk has had some sort of pet.

Trump is sort of the Mirror Universe version of James K Polk, isn't he? They were both surprise winners of the Presidency, beating overconfident establishment candidates who said stupid things about the race. Both governed in highly sectional eras and in a style that exacerbated the sectional divide. Both said nice things about Andrew Jackson. Neither one had a pet. Both dealth with their baldness by growing their remaining hair long in stupid looking ways. Both entered office with lots of plans, many of which involved Mexico. Both were accused of speaking incoherently -- Congressman Lincoln of Illinois memorably referred to Polk's "half-insane mumbling of a fever dream." And my hunch is that in three years we'll say that neither of them ran for a second term.

But where they're not the same they're opposites. Polk was, for a President, a little man (taller than Van Buren, but five inches shorter than Henry Clay); Trump is tall and lardy. Polk was disciplined past the point that many people considered reasonable, Trump ain't. People considered Polk and his wife to be a model of marital probity; this is not something that most people would associate with Donald Trump. (Trump has also been relatively fecund, while Polk was childless.) And of course Polk is remembered as the President who entered office with a specific agenda, spent the next four years methodically ticking off every single box on that agenda, and then declined to run for reelection because he had nothing left to do. This isn't strictly true, but it's closer to the truth with Polk than with almost every other President. So far, the popular opinion is that Trump entered office with no real plans and since then has accomplished exactly nothing. This is also not strictly true, but closer to the truth with Trump than with any other President who survived this far into his Presidency.

Edited to add: Trump needs to grow a goatee, and then it will be perfect.

I just wanted to re-post this entertaining comparison that would be a bright spot in any OTP thread, but most particularly in this week's OTP thread.
   2622. PreservedFish Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:25 AM (#5517172)
Heading off to sleep, but I'm guessing this is one of those times that Ray's famously subtle grasp of the English language has let him down. I don't know #### about Andrea Mitchell but if if you're a 70-year old social progressive, you've been on something like a 70 year winning streak. Of course blacks, women, gays etc were more marginalized and less empowered in the 60s than they are today, but typically when things are moving in the right direction you are encouraged, not discouraged.
   2623. Barnaby Jones Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:28 AM (#5517173)
Do I remember correctly that (((JE))) is/was officially employed as a conservative writer or something? I'm trying to understand his motivations with some of this stuff.
   2624. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:38 AM (#5517174)
Dick Gregory has died. He was a comedian who most definitely had his moment.

NY Times obituary
   2625. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:44 AM (#5517175)
Ray, is it your contention that Andrea Mitchell should have been discouraged about our country during the civil rights era?


Given the lynchings, riots, countless murders and killings, assassinations, constant stream of violence, framing of black people, false prosecutions, rigged juries, peak racism, and white supremacy activism that took place over several years... I'm going to go ahead and say yes. Particularly when compared to today.

Lynching black people as the tip of the iceberg and she shouldn't have been discouraged about our country, just because slowly progress was being made?

Really now, is there no limit to the absurd arguments people are willing to make on these pages in an effort to Get Trump.
   2626. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:57 AM (#5517179)
Rapidly? Like, with all deliberate speed?

Sure. I mean, what posssibly changed for a southern black man between 1962 and 1967?


If he made it to 1967 alive, you mean? Well, he probably saw friends and family members and his fellow black Americans framed and lynched and murdered and beaten, and if not that then had severe racism and discrimination visited upon him and them. Now, if you take a snapshot then 1967 was likely better for him than 1962, yes.

If you want to ignore the tremendous price African Americans had to pay in order to get there because you're trying to make some ridiculous point about the Trump's America you imagine you're living in you are free to do so. But I find this line of argument fairly beyond the pale.

Trivializing Nazis wasn't enough? Now you're trivializing the huge price African Americans who lived through the civil rights era paid? What's next, I shudder to think.
   2627. Lassus Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5517181)
edit: why, why, why, why would I?
   2628. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:31 AM (#5517182)
Yes, because it was a marked ####### improvement.


I just want it stated for the record here that three liberals have now argued on these pages that black people being lynched was no reason for anyone to be discouraged by our country during the civil rights era, because slow and deliberate progress was being made.

But Trump Is Bad, so the delusional arguments are justified.

   2629. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:32 AM (#5517183)
We've lost him lads. He's gone Full Dilbert.
   2630. Lassus Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:34 AM (#5517184)
I just want it stated for the record here that three liberals have now argued on these pages that black people being lynched was no reason for anyone to be discouraged by our country d

I edited too slow.

One more time, Ray:

You are a liar.

You lie, and when it is pointed out you lie, you lie some more.

You don't care that you are a liar, and it certainly is my guess that is why you admire Trump so much.

   2631. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:34 AM (#5517185)
edit: why, why, why, why would I?


I have no idea, but you did. In response to "Lynching black people as the tip of the iceberg and she shouldn't have been discouraged about our country, just because slowly progress was being made?," you said "Yes, because it was a marked ####### improvement."

You've deleted your answer now, so I presume you thought better of it, but you might want to confirm that you're walking it back. If you don't stand by it anymore I'll drop it.
   2632. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:35 AM (#5517186)
One more time, Ray:

You are a liar.

You lie, and when it is pointed out you lie, you lie some more.

You don't care that you are a liar, and it certainly is my guess that is why you admire Trump so much.


I did not lie. You quoted the first two paragraphs of my post 2625 and then responded with "Yes, because it was a marked ####### improvement."
   2633. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:46 AM (#5517187)
FTR the overwhelming majority of lynchings of black people took place well before the civil rights movement began, "overwhelming" as in over 99%. To pretend otherwise is so completely ignorant that there's no point in even commenting any further on it.
   2634. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:01 AM (#5517188)
FTR the overwhelming majority of lynchings of black people took place well before the civil rights movement began, "overwhelming" as in over 99%. To pretend otherwise is so completely ignorant that there's no point in even commenting any further on it.


Well, that's a relief, that there were only 1% of the lynchings during the civil rights era.

And the riots, countless murders and killings, assassinations, constant stream of violence, framing of black people, false prosecutions, rigged juries, peak racism, and white supremacy activism that took place over those years?

Do we have a fourth liberal in our midst ready to make the argument that this was not a discouraging time for America, certainly not compared to now with Trump as president, because slow progress was being made?
   2635. DavidFoss Posted: August 20, 2017 at 03:22 AM (#5517189)
Do we have a fourth liberal in our midst


Actually, the other three were hoping that *you* would join them for their 8:30 tee time...

How did we get out on this limb? It's kind of amazing. I mean, look at this. And people are complaining about the Trump White House?
   2636. John Shade has yet to hear the Squeak Posted: August 20, 2017 at 05:06 AM (#5517190)

Once he makes his bold statement there is no "equivocation."

Nor was there any moral equivalency. Had he said that the left's views were just as bad as those of the Nazis you'd have your moral equivalency. See how it works?

But whatever, there's no point in continuing this line of discussion.
Hey Ray, you seem like a pleasant fellow!

Except for the fact that you're apparently of below average intelligence, amoral, a liar, a hypocrite, and your guiding light is the doofus who created Dilbert.

(This "bold statement" = no equivocation theory is pretty exciting)
   2637. Morty Causa Posted: August 20, 2017 at 07:49 AM (#5517193)
FTR the overwhelming majority of lynchings of black people took place well before the civil rights movement began, "overwhelming" as in over 99%. To pretend otherwise is so completely ignorant that there's no point in even commenting any further on it.

FTR the overwhelming amount of Black violence committed against White people has occurred since the civil rights movement began. Hmmm.
   2638. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 07:49 AM (#5517194)
Hey Ray, you seem like a pleasant fellow!

Except for the fact that you're apparently of below average intelligence, amoral, a liar, a hypocrite, and your guiding light is the doofus who created Dilbert.


In other words, I disagree with you?
   2639. PreservedFish Posted: August 20, 2017 at 07:57 AM (#5517195)
I think it's hilarious that Ray is, by far, the most sanctimonious person here.
   2640. Morty Causa Posted: August 20, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5517197)
Last night TCM played The Manchurian Candidate (the good version). Who does Laurence Harvey's lead character remind you of? "Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."
   2641. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 08:42 AM (#5517199)
FTR the overwhelming majority of lynchings of black people took place well before the civil rights movement began, "overwhelming" as in over 99%. To pretend otherwise is so completely ignorant that there's no point in even commenting any further on it.

Well, that's a relief, that there were only 1% of the lynchings during the civil rights era.

And the riots, countless murders and killings, assassinations, constant stream of violence, framing of black people, false prosecutions, rigged juries, peak racism, and white supremacy activism that took place over those years?

Do we have a fourth liberal in our midst ready to make the argument that this was not a discouraging time for America, certainly not compared to now with Trump as president, because slow progress was being made?


I'm not sure which is more profound, your ignorance or your love of trolling, but read the black press of the time if you want to see the sort of hope that the civil rights movement produced.

Of course, given your predilections, you'd probably pick up a copy of Muhammad Speaks and think it was more representative than The Chicago Defender, Ebony, Jet, or the Afro-American chain.

But yes, in some ways it was a discouraging time for America---it was very discouraging for that part of America that saw the "n!ggers" taking over. More or less the same segment of America that today thinks "the browning of America" is "taking our country away from us" today. For that you need only to read The Congressional Record, and savor the rhetoric of the Dixiecrats and the right wing of the Republican party as they ranted about the connection between the civil rights movement and Communism. They'd fit right in with today's Trump supporters.
   2642. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 20, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5517200)
Well, that's a relief, that there were only 1% of the lynchings during the civil rights era.


Since when are you so concerned about a small number of murders? Just last week you were positively giddy about the (in your mind) low number of murders by white supremecists.
   2643. BDC Posted: August 20, 2017 at 08:49 AM (#5517201)
Fourth liberal here :) Ray, everybody knows the name of the most famous post-WW2 American lynching victim, Emmett Till. He was killed in 1955, the year after the Brown decision. Seems like a discouraging event, for sure.

But you want to know why people might have been encouraged, all the same? Because they knew his name. Because people were astonished that the lynching, and the consequent acquittal of the suspects, could even occur in 1955. Because there was a media uproar. Because something that had been just another weekend's atrocity for the Klansmen of 1925 or 1895, with anonymous victims and openly gleeful killers, was no longer business as usual.

As Andy says, you gotta have some historical perspective. People might be interested in the MonroeWorkToday project and its documentation of the history of lynching in the US.

   2644. spycake Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5517206)
And Andrea Mitchell was 9 years old in 1955. She must have felt so discouraged? She was 18 in 1964. Guessing the Civil Rights Era felt like a lot of progress to her.

Also, I don't know the context of her remark, but if they are referring to presidential behavior as compared to social norms at the time, this week has been fairly remarkable in American history.
   2645. PreservedFish Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5517208)
Let's be fair to Mr. Ray, even though he's acting like an ass. Andrea Mitchell is almost certainly exaggerating or at least just not being very thoughtful, as I've heard occurs often on Twitter. Of course, if the Trump were to make such an exaggeration - a mild one, to be sure, by the president's standards - RDP would interpret it as an acceptable rhetorical flourish. If a liberal does the same? DERANGEMENT SYNDROME.
   2646. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5517209)
Fourth liberal here :) Ray, everybody knows the name of the most famous post-WW2 American lynching victim, Emmett Till. He was killed in 1955, the year after the Brown decision. Seems like a discouraging event, for sure.


To be pedantic, 1955 was almost certainly pre-Civil Rights era, though it definitely helped precipitate it. (The Montgomery Bus Boycott, which off the top of my head I'd say inaugurated the era, began 3-odd months later.)

As for discouraging events during said era, I was a child at the time but I have a hard time thinking of the assassinations of Medgar Evers & Martin Luther King, the Birmingham church bombing & police savagery in the streets, the murders of Schwerner, Chaney & Goodman, the Freedom Riders beatings (some of which occurred about 3 miles from where I'm typing this, the murders of James Reeb & Viola Liuzzo, the Selma beatings, the James Meredith shooting, the Democrat's rejection of the Mississippi Freedom Party at the 1964 convention, etc. etc. etc. as particularly joy-making. (And those are just the incidents that occur to my still-sleep-muddled mind at the moment.)

But maybe that's just me. Actual facts from actual history often lead to the creation of Debbie Downers.
   2647. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:47 AM (#5517210)
As Andy says, you gotta have some historical perspective.

--<Error--does not compute. Rephrase as context-free binary, or contact your system administrator for further assistance.>--
   2648. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5517211)
Does JE condemn the council of conservative citizens?

Dylan Roof asked me to ask.
Yes. Next?
   2649. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5517212)
Any antifa committing violence should be prosecuted and put in jail.
Except you folks go to great lengths to deny or downplay Antifa violance and how it's one of their bread and butter tactics.
   2650. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5517213)
Except you folks go to great lengths to deny or downplay Antifa violance and how it's one of their bread and butter tactics.


So? I mean really. WTF does that have to do with neo-Nazis & the repugnance of their beliefs & your president's winking at them?

From hanging out on various anarchist-oriented pages, I can say with complete assurance that the detestation between so-called antifa (hate that term, which offhand I suspect originated with the idiot headline writers of the British tabloids, though I haven't looked into it) & their supporters garden-variety liberals & for that matter pacifistic leftists couldn't be more pronounced.

I respect the hell out of you, our differing views aside, but in this instance it's as if you're just knee-jerking. *sigh*

Edit: I freely admit that I'm guilty of having no real problem with antifa violence (yes, I am A Bad Person, or perhaps that should be A Bad Mongoose), but with your above comment you're not talking about me, but rather about posters of whom that is not true. Really not sure where that's coming from, to be perfectly honest.
   2651. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:58 AM (#5517214)
Andrea Mitchell: "I'm an optimist. I have never been as discouraged as I've been this week about our country."

Andrea Mitchell is 70 and lived through the civil rights era.
Not to mention the Vietnam War.

Even 70-year olds need page clicks.
   2652. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5517215)
Agree with JE. It's lame to bring up something so old. But did Nancy Pelosi's daddy sell the fertilizer to Timothy McVeigh's daddy?
I'm tempted to look. :) But if true, shipman would never recover...
   2653. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5517216)
Andrea Mitchell is married to Alan ####### Greenspan. Her employer aside, who gives a flying #### what she says or thinks?
   2654. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5517219)
Do I remember correctly that (((JE))) is/was officially employed as a conservative writer or something? I'm trying to understand his motivations with some of this stuff.
I wrote about baseball for NRO, Barnaby.

Mitchell is posing: How many alt-Right folks, let alone Nazis, showed up in Boston? If the Nazi threat is so pronounced, where were they?

However, I admit that the tension between the ideological poles hasn't been this pronounced since the 1970s.

BTW, one of my concerns is that some of the folks who revel in "Punch a Nazi" talk already see libertarians, social conservatives, and Zionists as... Nazis.
   2655. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5517220)
If the Nazi threat is so pronounced, where were they?


If the Nazi threat is so minuscule, why does your president have such a hard time categorically denouncing it?
   2656. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5517221)
So? I mean really. WTF does that have to do with neo-Nazis & the repugnance of their beliefs & your president's winking at them?
I can't condemn both groups of ##########, even if one group is worse than the other?
I respect the hell out of you, our differing views aside, but in this instance it's as if you're just knee-jerking. *sigh*
Thanks, dude. I stand behind the substance of my comments from this weekend but admit that some were phrased in a more provocative manner than usual.

More importantly, what's the latest with the little feral? How's her eye?
   2657. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5517223)
If the Nazi threat is so minuscule, why does your president have such a hard time categorically denouncing it?
There's a difference between Nazi scumbags and the alt-Right movement. The latter has odious views but are physically harmless.
   2658. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5517225)
More importantly, what's the latest with the little feral? How's her eye?


Surgery was at 3 a.m. (thankfully, they decided not to follow up on my request for a phone call immediately afterward, which I made when they were anticipated an 8 p.m. procedure time) to remove the eye. She passed with flying colors. They recommend trying to convert her to an indoor cat, which I was leaning toward anyway. That'll involve procuring a dog-sized crate (I just got through researching prices at the stores here) & keeping her isolated in a bedroom for up to a few weeks till she's used to me, then moving her to an open area so she & my household cat collective can get used to one another. I've never tried socializing a feral older than 4 months or so before (she's around & year & a half), & for that matter both of those were unusually sociable anyway, so this'll be an entirely new venture for me.

Thanks for asking, & for caring.
   2659. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:30 AM (#5517227)
Edit: I freely admit that I'm guilty of having no real problem with antifa violence (yes, I am A Bad Person, or perhaps that should be A Bad Mongoose), but with your above comment you're not talking about me, but rather about posters of whom that is not true. Really not sure where that's coming from, to be perfectly honest.
Sammy justifies violence and has done so on more than one occasion. With some others, it's like pulling teeth getting them to acknowledge it.
   2660. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5517228)
Surgery was at 3 a.m. (thankfully, they decided not to follow up on my request for a phone call immediately afterward, which I made when they were anticipated an 8 p.m. procedure time) to remove the eye. She passed with flying colors. They recommend trying to convert her to an indoor cat, which I was leaning toward anyway. That'll involve procuring a dog-sized crate (I just got through researching prices at the stores here) & keeping her isolated in a bedroom for up to a few weeks till she's used to me, then moving her to an open area so she & my household cat collective can get used to one another. I've never tried socializing a feral older than 4 months or so before (she's around & year & a half), & for that matter both of those were unusually sociable anyway, so this'll be an entirely new venture for me.

Thanks for asking, & for caring.
Good to hear. Very, very good.

So now I have a language question, Mongoose: Why do you call her a "feral" and not an "outdoor cat" or "cat," let alone "pet?" You're obviously attached to her but IMHO, "feral" sounds so distant and informal.

EDITED for a bit more clarity.
   2661. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5517229)
There's a difference between Nazi scumbags and the alt-Right movement. The latter has odious views but are physically harmless.


Well, it's a thin line, at least conceivably, or so it seems to me. I realize that I'm very, very biased, but at a certain level I think of the alt-Right as Nazis with professional haircuts & nice suits. Admittedly, knowledge of history -- I just finished, for instance, this book -- is not my friend when it comes to taking a completely calm view of such matters. (Neither is the fact that I'm profoundly pessimistic by nature anyway.)
   2662. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5517230)

So now I have a language question: Why do you call her a "feral" and not simply an "outdoor cat" or simply "cat?" "Feral" sounds so distant and informal.


You're right, & for that matter "feral" often evokes images of slashing claws & such. People in the trap-neuter-return & (from what I can gather) animal care communities, though, use the term because "outdoor cat" could be a perfectly domesticated feline (all of our cats when I was growing up fit this description, though of course they came in to eat & hang around as they pleased -- in fact, not till I took in my first feral some 7 years ago did I keep one inside 24/7), & "cat" doesn't convey the fact that for all intents & purposes we're dealing with a ... well, not a wild, really, but an untamed or at least undomesticated ... creature.

Edit: One group I give a bit of money to (via Amazon Smile, mostly) calls itself "Alley Cat Allies." "Alley cat" is definitely a friendlier-sounding term. Maybe I should start using it.
   2663. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5517232)
You're right, & for that matter "feral" often evokes images of slashing claws & such. People in the trap-neuter-return & (from what I can gather) animal care communities, though, use the term because "outdoor cat" could be a perfectly domesticated feline (all of our cats when I was growing up fit this description, though of course they came in to eat & hang around as they pleased) & "cat" doesn't convey the fact that for all intents & purposes we're dealing with a ... well, not a wild, really, but an untamed or at least undomesticated ... creature.
Thanks. Being an urban child, I rarely hear the term. "Stray" is far more common, although I realize they don't mean the same thing.

EDIT: "Alley cat" is definitely old-school but still more familiar.
   2664. PreservedFish Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5517233)
Violence against neo-confederates and bigots and most of the deplorables is to be condemned. But on actual neo-Nazis - like, people that would put Jews and minorities to death if they could - I've got an open mind. At some point a tolerant society needs to draw the line. I don't know where that point is, maybe it's nowhere near where we are now, but it's somewhere. And some people really do deserve a smack upside the head.
   2665. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5517234)
Sammy justifies violence and has done so on more than one occasion. With some others, it's like pulling teeth getting them to acknowledge it.


I'll keep all my teeth, thank you. The issue is more nuanced than Sam is willing to acknowledge here, but overall I'm with him. Maybe it's a Southern solidarity thing. Or maybe in my case it's the fact that I live in a place where Roy ####### Moore will probably be elected to the Senate, so overreacting is a matter of instinct. (Not really, of course, I'm pretty sure I've felt pretty much the same way ever since I started taking politics seriously in my mid-teens.)
   2666. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5517235)
"Stray" is far more common, although I realize they don't mean the same thing.


For some reason "stray" never occurs to me, though come to think of it I'm pretty sure at least one of the vets or techs or admissions folks used it yesterday. Maybe I associate it too much with the old rockabilly band. But for pretty much all intents & purposes it would work better than "feral," I'm pretty sure.
   2667. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5517236)
But on actual neo-Nazis - like, people that would put Jews and minorities to death if they could - I've got an open mind. At some point a tolerant society needs to draw the line.
No need to answer right now, PF -- I'll be out for much of the day and suspect Mongoose needs to catch up on his ZZZs -- but you do realize there's an Islamist extremist problem in our country? And just last month, an imam in California got caught on tape preaching for Jews to be "annihilated"; disturbingly, not only did he not lose his pulpit, the community rallied around him after he offered a non-apology apology.

So where's the outrage?
   2668. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5517240)
No need to answer right now, PF -- I'll be out for much of the day and suspect Mongoose needs to catch up on his ZZZs -- but you do realize there's a growing Islamist extremist problem in our country? Just last month, an imam in California got caught on tape preaching for Jews to be killed and, not only did he not lose his pulpit, but the community rallied around him after he offered an non-apology apology.

So where's the outrage?


Yeah, I do. Thanks.

My short answer, though, is that for whatever reason the Islamic extremist threat just hasn't penetrated my consciousness to anywhere near the degree that the neo-Nazi/Klan threat has. I mean, I've driven past lines of marching Klansmen down State Line Avenue in Texarkana (wound up hurling a ratchet from my car's console at them), albeit something like 37 years ago, & I lived in south Louisiana one parish over from where David Duke began his career in elective office, which happened while I still lived down there. And of course as a history grad student my field was the '60s & the New Left, which very much included the Civil Rights Movement, & it wasn't Moslems those guys were taking on. (Quite the opposite, I guess -- see X, Malcolm. Not that Elijah Muhammad, Louis Farrakhan, etc. weren't scum.) And now I live in the midst of a city where the Bus Boycott, Freedom Rider beatings, etc. occurred, & I drive through Selma every December on the way to & from home in Arkansas. Etc. etc. etc.

Moslems? In my personal experience, they work in stores & maybe restaurants. I guess 9/11 pretty much rolled off my back after the initial shock wore off (though as I've mentioned before, a first cousin is married to the widow of one of the guys killed in the United Airlines Flight 93 crash; she talked with him via cell phone while they were organizing to rush the cockpit). For some reason I've never found the Middle East or anything related to it at all interesting, despite having (as I've also noted before) relatives in at least the Tel Aviv area going back to something like 1950. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent, I dunno ... but it is what it is, as they say.
   2669. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5517241)
There's a difference between Nazi scumbags and the alt-Right movement. The latter has odious views but are physically harmless.


Quaint. Our pretty little window shopping renegade JSON package spends decades at his post in the Fighting Keyboard 101st, decrying anyone and everyone who doesn't line up immediately and joyfully behind every bombing campaign and strafing run in a foreign nation he can dream up with dire warnings of Europe 1939. But when faced with actual Nazis and their Vichy-at-best sympathizers taking control of the ####### presidency of the United States, he can't put that Neville Chamberlain Halloween mask on fast enough.

Also, someone that pisses themselves regularly over the use of their first name in casual conversation here might want to stop throwing those stones inside their glass house, Jacquelyn.
   2670. BDC Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5517242)
"Feral" is an important distinction with cats because, as gef was saying, a kitten must have a period of close attention from humans when it's very young, or it will (the wisdom goes) never interact with people the way you imagine a pet would. There's a feral cat following La Dernière around the garden as I write this. It is clearly not afraid of humans, but it will not let itself be touched. By contrast, outdoor cats and strays are often eager to interact with people.

Our neighbors trap and neuter feral cats. They feed them and they all have names. But they cannot touch them. They also have an outdoor cat, and my cat goes indoors or out as it pleases, and they all eat from the same "buffet." But the difference in behavior between the ferals and the outdoor pets is remarkable.

Which is to say, good luck, gef :)
   2671. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5517243)
2594. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 19, 2017 at 08:10 PM (#5517083)
Again, read those tweets. That was unprovoked violence against law enforcement.

This isn't hard. Either strongly condemn Antifa or get saddled with the baggage.


2657. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5517223)

There's a difference between Nazi scumbags and the alt-Right movement. The latter has odious views but are physically harmless.


One wonders the damage you're doing to your knees and kneck with this sort of whipping 180 degree flip every 24 hours or so, bruh
   2672. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5517244)
One wonders the damage you're doing to your knees and kneck with this sort of whipping 180 degree flip every 24 hours or so, bruh
For your benefit, next time I'll try to stick to monosyllabic words.
   2673. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5517245)
For your benefit, I'll try to stick to monosyllabic words next time.


Something akin to "der" or "heil?"
   2674. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5517258)
but overall I'm with him. Maybe it's a Southern solidarity thing

My instinct says I'd like Sam in person. But that might be true of a random Klansman, too.

Ignorance is integral to the human condition. I'm part of that for sure, and try to remember that when I get frustrated by the fact.
   2675. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5517260)
It's really not hard to say that the assassination of MLK was discouraging. (Or would have been to you at the time, had you been alive.) Times a bazillion other terrible events of the period. This seems an odd hill for folks to plant a flag on.
   2676. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5517261)
To be pedantic, 1955 was almost certainly pre-Civil Rights era, though it definitely helped precipitate it.

That's a year after Brown v. Board of Education, which wasn't even the first legal challenge to segregation. It takes a rather narrow definition of the "civil rights era" to exclude the mid-1950s, and few use the term that way.
   2677. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5517263)
Andrea Mitchell's country is inside the beltway.
   2678. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5517264)
Fourth liberal here :) Ray, everybody knows the name of the most famous post-WW2 American lynching victim, Emmett Till. He was killed in 1955, the year after the Brown decision. Seems like a discouraging event, for sure.

But you want to know why people might have been encouraged, all the same? Because they knew his name. Because people were astonished that the lynching, and the consequent acquittal of the suspects, could even occur in 1955. Because there was a media uproar. Because something that had been just another weekend's atrocity for the Klansmen of 1925 or 1895, with anonymous victims and openly gleeful killers, was no longer business as usual.

As Andy says, you gotta have some historical perspective. People might be interested in the MonroeWorkToday project and its documentation of the history of lynching in the US.


I'll guarantee that one of the people who'll never be interested in absorbing the information in that provided link will be Ray. It's just one of the infinite number of things he can't be bothered to care about.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be pedantic, 1955 was almost certainly pre-Civil Rights era, though it definitely helped precipitate it. (The Montgomery Bus Boycott, which off the top of my head I'd say inaugurated the era, began 3-odd months later.)

"The Civil Rights era" is an elusive term, but generally it gets dated either from about 1947 (the first southern freedom rides), 1954 (Brown), 1955 (the Montgomery bus boycott), or 1960 (the first well publicized sit-ins). The ending time is more tightly bound, either 1965 with the passage of the Voting Rights act, 1966 with the rise of "Black Power" and its exclusionary rhetoric, or 1968 (with the passage of the Fair Housing bill). Personally my time frame would be 1954 and 1965, which is the period when optimism was at its peak.

As for discouraging events during said era, I was a child at the time but I have a hard time thinking of the assassinations of Medgar Evers & Martin Luther King, the Birmingham church bombing & police savagery in the streets, the murders of Schwerner, Chaney & Goodman, the Freedom Riders beatings (some of which occurred about 3 miles from where I'm typing this, the murders of James Reeb & Viola Liuzzo, the Selma beatings, the James Meredith shooting, the Democrat's rejection of the Mississippi Freedom Party at the 1964 convention, etc. etc. etc. as particularly joy-making. (And those are just the incidents that occur to my still-sleep-muddled mind at the moment.)

I'd put it this way: If you look at history in dialectical terms, between 1954 and 1965 those horrific events were in the "one step backward" category, whereas the historical advances made during that time period were among the "two steps forward". That's why, in spite of all those setbacks, the overall mood of the non-racist part of the country was profoundly optimistic, while the overall mood of the Dixiecrats and their allies was profoundly apocalyptic.

And if you look at the past two years with that perspective, it's hard to imagine that there've been anything like two steps forward to the enormous step backward we've seen under Donald Trump and his cabinet wrecking crew.


   2679. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5517265)
Ray, #2626:
Rapidly? Like, with all deliberate speed?

Sure. I mean, what posssibly changed for a southern black man between 1962 and 1967?

If he made it to 1967 alive, you mean? Well, he probably saw friends and family members and his fellow black Americans framed and lynched and murdered and beaten



From 1962-1967, there were 4 lynchings in the United States. Two of the four victims were white.

Black lynchings by decade:
1880s: 534 (total does not include 1880 or 1881)
1890s: 1,111
1900s: 858
1910s: 569
1920s: 281
1930s: 119
1940s: 33
1950s: 6
1960s: 3 (the last in 1964)


Ray, #2628:
I just want it stated for the record here that three liberals have now argued on these pages that black people being lynched was no reason for anyone to be discouraged by our country during the civil rights era, because slow and deliberate progress was being made.

But Trump Is Bad, so the delusional arguments are justified.


and #2634:
And the riots, countless murders and killings, assassinations, constant stream of violence, framing of black people, false prosecutions, rigged juries, peak racism, and white supremacy activism that took place over those years?

Do we have a fourth liberal in our midst ready to make the argument that this was not a discouraging time for America, certainly not compared to now with Trump as president, because slow progress was being made?



When you come out of your fever dream of pathos and pedantry, Ray, this detailed historical video will give you the key point you pretend not to understand.
   2680. Chicago Joe Posted: August 20, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5517266)
It's sort of like saying the American Revolution was 'discouraging'. Or Ray doesn't take a dialectical view. Or maybe things are always discouraging.
   2681. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:00 PM (#5517268)
To be pedantic, 1955 was almost certainly pre-Civil Rights era, though it definitely helped precipitate it.

That's a year after Brown v. Board of Education, which wasn't even the first legal challenge to segregation.

You're absolutely right that the assault on school segregation began well before Brown, and set the stage for it, but those cases mostly involved graduate schools and didn't directly attack the legal foundations of Jim Crow. The reasoning of those prior court decisions was more along the lines of (obviously paraphrasing) "If you're going to want separate but equal, you have to provide guarantees of the 'equal' part." And whereas Brown resulted in front page headlines all over the country and the rise of the Massive Resistance movement, those previous rulings were barely even noticed outside the black press and the offices of various states' attorneys general.

In baseball terms, those prior decisions were a series of one or two run innings by a team that was socked with a 20-0 deficit before it even came up to bat, whereas Brown was the grand slam that capped a 10 run rally in the bottom of the ninth. Not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across.
   2682. DavidFoss Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5517269)
This seems an odd hill for folks to plant a flag on.


You planted the flag for them. You're sending people down out on a limb and then cutting off the branch.

Here's the Andrea Mitchell quote. They have three hour round tables on Morning Joe every morning.

Here's her criticism of Trump from April and why he's different than the previous six administrations that she's covered.

I don't even care about her, but figured you guys might want to talk about what she actually said instead of imagining whether or not assassinations are discouraging.
   2683. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5517270)
PBS has the civil rights era as starting in 1954, as does Wiki. The Library of Congress has it starting at 1950.

Looks like folks here are going to have to TDSsplain to African Americans that the civil rights era didn't actually start until later.
   2684. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5517271)
Ray, #2675:
It's really not hard to say that the assassination of MLK was discouraging. (Or would have been to you at the time, had you been alive.) Times a bazillion other terrible events of the period. This seems an odd hill for folks to plant a flag on.


Martin Luther King, accepting the Nobel Peace Prize:
"I have the personal faith that mankind will somehow rise up to the occasion and give new directions to an age drifting rapidly to its doom. In spite of the tensions and uncertainties of this period something profoundly meaningful is taking place. Old systems of exploitation and oppression are passing away, and out of the womb of a frail world new systems of justice and equality are being born. Doors of opportunity are gradually being opened to those at the bottom of society. The shirtless and barefoot people of the land are developing a new sense of “somebodiness” and carving a tunnel of hope through the dark mountain of despair. “The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light.” Here and there an individual or group dares to love, and rises to the majestic heights of moral maturity. So in a real sense this is a great time to be alive.

Therefore, I am not yet discouraged about the future. Granted that the easygoing optimism of yesterday is impossible. Granted that those who pioneer in the struggle for peace and freedom will still face uncomfortable jail terms, painful threats of death; they will still be battered by the storms of persecution, leading them to the nagging feeling that they can no longer bear such a heavy burden, and the temptation of wanting to retreat to a more quiet and serene life. Granted that we face a world crisis which leaves us standing so often amid the surging murmur of life’s restless sea. But every crisis has both its dangers and its opportunities. It can spell either salvation or doom. In a dark confused world the kingdom of God may yet reign in the hearts of men."


Shorter version: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”

Feel free to fixate on King's illogical word construction of "drifting rapidly."
   2685. Swoboda is freedom Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5517272)
"The Civil Rights era" is an elusive term, but generally it gets dated either from about 1947 (the first southern freedom rides), 1954 (Brown), 1955 (the Montgomery bus boycott), or 1960 (the first well publicized sit-ins). The ending time is more tightly bound, either 1965 with the passage of the Voting Rights act, 1966 with the rise of "Black Power" and its exclusionary rhetoric, or 1968 (with the passage of the Fair Housing bill). Personally my time frame would be 1954 and 1965, which is the period when optimism was at its peak.

The Army was integrated in 1948, but it took a decade for it to be fully enforced. My dad said that he had some black guys in his unit in Korea in 1952. My uncle, who was a Ranger in the Korean War, said it was not integrated, but there was a separate all black unit in the Rangers.
   2686. Chicago Joe Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5517273)
Feel free to fixate on King's illogical word construction of "drifting rapidly."


Somebody's never seen Tokyo Drift!
   2687. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5517275)
My instinct says I'd like Sam in person.


Sam's a goddamned pleasure to behold. You people are lucky to even know of him.
   2688. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:19 PM (#5517280)
"The Civil Rights era" is an elusive term, but generally it gets dated either from about 1947 (the first southern freedom rides), 1954 (Brown), 1955 (the Montgomery bus boycott), or 1960 (the first well publicized sit-ins). The ending time is more tightly bound, either 1965 with the passage of the Voting Rights act, 1966 with the rise of "Black Power" and its exclusionary rhetoric, or 1968 (with the passage of the Fair Housing bill). Personally my time frame would be 1954 and 1965, which is the period when optimism was at its peak.

The Army was integrated in 1948, but it took a decade for it to be fully enforced. My dad said that he had some black guys in his unit in Korea in 1952. My uncle, who was a Ranger in the Korean War, said it was not integrated, but there was a separate all black unit in the Rangers.


Good point. The military was one of but many American institutions that first desegregated on paper and on a token basis, and then gradually became much more truly reflective of our overall demographics. The pages of EBONY during its first two decades (1945-65) constitute a virtual Encyclopedia of First Negroes in this or that occupation or institution. All those stories went to reinforce that magazine's overall tone of optimism, even in the face of the horrors that were still taking place.
   2689. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:19 PM (#5517282)
The issue is more nuanced than Sam is willing to acknowledge here, but overall I'm with him. Maybe it's a Southern solidarity thing. Or maybe in my case it's the fact that I live in a place where Roy ####### Moore will probably be elected to the Senate, so overreacting is a matter of instinct.


You can generally break the contributors to this thread into two broad categories. People who actually know and live with the problem in question, and a bunch of NEC trust fund "conservatives" and limousine liberals who have no idea what the #### they're talking about.
   2690. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5517283)

Sam's a goddamned pleasure to behold. You people are lucky to even know of him.

Never saw him stab anyone.
   2691. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5517286)
Never saw him stab anyone.


Day's still young, Gramps.
   2692. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5517287)
My instinct says I'd like Sam in person.


Agreed that he's not a Very Fine Person in person.

Which I mean as a compliment. It's actually quite pleasant to have a beer with him.
   2693. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5517288)
Good point. The military was one of but many American institutions that first desegregated on paper and on a token basis, and then gradually became much more truly reflective of our overall demographics. The pages of EBONY during its first two decades (1945-65) constitute a virtual Encyclopedia of First Negroes in this or that occupation or institution. All those stories went to reinforce that magazine's overall tone of optimism, even in the face of the horrors that were still taking place.


True. But the question of "where the Civil Rights era begins" most correctly is answered "with the end of WW II." The primary driver for AA activism that created and then drove forward the Civil Rights movement that peaked with MLK were black veterans coming home from Europe and the Pacific and saying quietly but with absolute iron in their spines "I did not fight fascists and imperialists overseas to return home to this ####."
   2694. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5517289)
It's actually quite pleasant to have a beer with him.


Everything about Sam is pleasant, except when he tells you nattering nutters truths you're uncomfortable hearing.
   2695. Rockwell Posted: August 20, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5517292)
Andrea Mitchell: "I'm an optimist. I have never been as discouraged as I've been this week about our country."

Andrea Mitchell is 70 and lived through the civil rights era.

Mika Brzezinski: We're at a low point in American history."


Give me a D, give me an E, give me a C-L-I-N-E.

Actually, the late Vietnam era was worse, with what one source I read said were 2,500 actual bombings. The country, of course, improved by leaps and bounds rapidly once we got Vietnam out of the way, peaked, and is now significantly short of that peak. To think otherwise is the stuff of lunacy.
   2696. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5517296)
It's a terrible shame to see the previously spotless reputation of cable new yack shows besmirched by hyperbole. Mitchell and Brzezinski's quotes are so much further out to lunch than anything yet seen by man, they truly deserve their own stirring tympani burst and big red BREAKING NEWS banners. Their dim exaggerations are, by far, the worst thing ever to happen in the entire history of media.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to brace myself for the next several most important elections of my lifetime.
   2697. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5517297)
If you're white it's easy to differentiate between the alt-right and Nazis. It isn't so easy for me. I feel threatened by Nazis and those who don't disavow same, so #### any of you who may say or think that I'm over reacting. #### you.
   2698. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5517300)
My instinct says I'd like Sam in person.


Not that you asked but I'd spit on you if I met you.
   2699. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5517301)
Speaking of calm understatement, Jerry Lewis has died.
   2700. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 20, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5517302)
limousine liberals


The descriptor in Little Rock is "Volvo liberals," or at least was when I lived there. Arkansas is a very poor state.

(First car I ever drove, acquired through living with my first gf, was a Volvo, but it was something like 11 years old, had certainly well over 100K miles, had an old air conditioner grating for a grill & had a hole about the size of my fist in the floor.)
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