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Monday, August 14, 2017

OTP 14 August 2014: The American Pastimes of Rock ’n’ Roll, Baseball and Poetry

Maybe poetry and politics don’t mix. “I don’t want to get off into a whole thing about history here, but the Statue of Liberty is a symbol of American liberty lighting the world,” said Stephen Miller, a White House senior adviser, when he was challenged, recently, about the Trump administration’s proposal to restrict immigration. “The poem that you’re referring to was added later. It’s not actually part of the original Statue of Liberty.”

The poem, “The New Colossus,” was written by Emma Lazarus, who is being celebrated at the 92nd Street Y with works by 19 young poets inspired by her words. While the text wasn’t finally affixed to the base of the statue until 1903, the poem was commissioned in 1883 — three years before the statue opened — to raise money for the pedestal. Speaking of poems, more than 700 commercial, university and independent presses have contributed 3,000 items to the 2017 Poets House Showcase through Aug. 26 at Poets House in Battery Park City.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2017 at 07:18 AM | 3273 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   3101. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 02:59 AM (#5518290)
   3102. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:41 AM (#5518292)
If you stare at Trump for too long, you'll go blind.
   3103. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:46 AM (#5518294)
I am back from my week long vacation. I submitted a new thread, and I got engaged. Plus I enjoyed hanging with 60,000 people in downtown Indianapolis being a game nerd.

I followed the news and am glad I missed out. What a train wreck our president is. Sigh.
   3104. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:16 AM (#5518298)
I am back from my week long vacation. I submitted a new thread, and I got engaged.
Congrats, Mouse! Does she know? :)

   3105. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:16 AM (#5518299)
For David, another high profile figure who doesn't think Trump is a racist...Dean Cain

Surprise, surprise. Trump fan doesn't think Trump is a racist.

So what other longtime high profile Trump supporters do you want to quote? Peter Thiel? Ted Nugent?
   3106. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:19 AM (#5518300)
Good to hear. Meanwhile, my brother -in-law (my sister's husband) nephew was one of the 3 Marines lost in the Osprey accident a couple of weeks ago.
Sorry to hear that, Misirlou. Condolences to the family.
   3107. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:22 AM (#5518302)
Congrats, Mouse! Does she know? :)


Heh. :)

We went out to eat with 15 or so friends from all over the globe the Wednesday before the convention and outside I had everyone gather for a picture (while random guy snapped pictures). And then in front of them all I got down on one knee and asked (Spoiler alert I knew the answer in advance, but she was surprised by me doing it there). The pictures are pretty funny as the shock of what was happening rippled across everyone's faces.
   3108. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5518303)
My condolences as well to Mirislou and family.
   3109. Greg K Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5518304)
I caught some of the South Asia speech last night. Has previous US policy (or presidents) singled out Pakistan for that much criticism?

A few months ago Pakistan looked like it was on the way towards some measure of stability and prosperity, but things are looking a bit uncertain now with a Prime Minister being ousted and all.
   3110. BDC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:25 AM (#5518305)
Congratulations, Mouse! I am toasting you with a can of seltzer.
   3111. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5518312)
Has TGF chimed in with how much he loves Trump "going to war" in Afghanistan yet? Because I thought Trump was supposed to be different from all those bad-war-like-neo-con Republicans and just as bad Democrats. Hmmmm.
   3112. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5518313)
Of course, lots of people on this board have also stated that they don't believe Trump is a racist, or at least not a big one. One of the frustrating things about arguing with RDP is that he repeatedly loses the thread of the argument on this page and goes back to bashing what he thinks "the left" thinks, and blaming all the liberals on this board for it, whatever they have or haven't said on the matter.
   3113. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:55 AM (#5518314)
LGBT behavior

Two tells in a span of two words that Clovis is a fundamentalist nitwit, not that we didn't know this already:

1. Describing "LGBT" as a "behavior," and
2. Conflating the L, G, B, and T as if being gay and being trans were remotely the same thing.
   3114. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:59 AM (#5518315)
Has TGF chimed in with how much he loves Trump "going to war" in Afghanistan yet? Because I thought...

"...Trump was President in 2001."
   3115. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:00 AM (#5518316)
Has TGF chimed in with how much he loves Trump "going to war" in Afghanistan yet? Because I thought Trump was supposed to be different from all those bad-war-like-neo-con Republicans and just as bad Democrats. Hmmmm.
While giving increased autonomy to the generals and taking a tougher line re: Pakistan sound refreshing, the larger issue remains: "Winning" this war is next to impossible, even more so when the announced increase in troops is so paltry. It would be better to start bringing everyone home.
   3116. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:01 AM (#5518317)
Has previous US policy (or presidents) singled out Pakistan for that much criticism?

Nope.
   3117. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:01 AM (#5518319)
Dean Cain? Next you'll tell me Scott Baio is on the same page. Ted Nugent. Yes, the list is endless!
   3118. BDC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5518321)
"Winning" this war is next to impossible, even more so when the announced increase in troops is so paltry. It would be better to start bringing everyone home

Yup. Trump is following the strategy perfected by Lord Melbourne in 1840 and Brezhnev in 1980: just a little more effort and certainly Afghanistan will be subdued.
   3119. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:12 AM (#5518322)
While giving increased autonomy to the generals and taking a tougher line re: Pakistan sound refreshing, the larger issue remains: "Winning" this war is next to impossible, even more so when the increase in troops is so paltry. It's time to start bringing everyone home.

Funny how both parties are always gungho at the start and a whipped puppy in the end. Maybe you've learned your lesson? (NBL)

You break it, you've bought it. The difference with Trump is that he's not supporting endless war but putting a real end to taking responsibility for the whole globe. Pakistan is largely responsible for enabling the Taliban, like China with PRNK. He campaigned on making regional powers responsible for their own backyards, not Mouse's regurgitated scare tactics of 'abandoned' alliances.

While you folks join the commentariat in an obsession with Trump's foibles, he has been acting steadily on international economics... which includes military aid, support, and strategy. Though it's probably best to blindly keep feeling around on that elephant.
   3120. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5518323)
Idenity & Terror

A Sam Harris podcast with Douglas Murray devoted entirely to race and identity politics. Sam sets out some nice first principles, making points especially about Black Lives Matter that should be so obvious as not to have to be made. Murray confesses him very confused about America's abiding sense of failure on race, given the strides it's made in the last 50 years.
   3121. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:15 AM (#5518324)
Dean Cain? Next you'll tell me Scott Baio is on the same page. Ted Nugent. Yes, the list is endless!

Don't forget Tom Selleck, and the exhumed remains of Charlton Heston.
   3122. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5518328)
Dean Cain? Next you'll tell me Scott Baio is on the same page. Ted Nugent. Yes, the list is endless!
Not sure about that, but I saw a tweet from Scott Baio's wife over the weekend strongly backing the president.
   3123. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:23 AM (#5518330)
You break it, you've bought it.


Who is "You" in this sentiment? It is not me certainly and it doesn't seem to be you, so Trump? The GOP? All of the United States government? And , of course, it is a dumb and simplistic (but short and catchy) phrase - so perfect for you to spew out in typically meaningless fashion.

EDIT: Ditto with "Maybe you've learned your lesson?"
   3124. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:24 AM (#5518331)
1) Do people realize we're -- what, a year or two? -- away from the point where someone deployed to Afghanistan actually having a child that wasn't even born coming of age to join the service and be deployed? For an active military engagement - that is absolute and utter madness. It ought to be a rule - no war can span multiple generations.

2) I always put the failure to stick to the timetable and not kowtow to the surge today, surge tomorrah, surge forevah as one of Obama's biggest failings. He ran on "getting Afghanistan right", it didn't work, he should have said enough is enough and spent term 2 on a deliberate withdrawal.

3) I suppose I would give Trump a pass in that I doubt any rational, thinking person ever believed his campaign BS about getting out. He was inevitably going to surge again. As likely would any President (I doubt we'd be talking exit if HRC won, either... in fact, we'd probably have been talking surge 3 months ago).

4) Pakistan-bashing may feel cathartic, but there's a reason that neither Bush nor Obama engaged in it... it's painfully obvious which way Pakistan will 'fall' once they fall of the fence of (full air quote) "radical" to actual radical. It's a grit your teeth situation.

5) Whatever one a billion shot the US ever had at 'winning' Afghanistan probably requires nation building. It was a sucker's bet, but the only feasible bet.

Time to move on and get out... 16 years is enough.
   3125. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:26 AM (#5518334)
While you folks join the commentariat in an obsession with Trump's foibles, he has been acting steadily on international economics


This is a flat out lie, by the way. "Steadily in international economics?" Ummm, sure, he has been consistently wrong and expressed his wrongness in a variety of ways but otherwise not so much.
   3126. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:30 AM (#5518335)
But isn't hastily leaving Afghanistan practically begging for another Syria?
   3127. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5518336)
3113

Two tells in a span of two words that Clovis is a fundamentalist nitwit, not that we didn't know this already:
....
2. Conflating the L, G, B, and T as if being gay and being trans were remotely the same thing.


Something I could stand some clarification on: the "T" in LGBT stands for transgender and refers to persons of one particular sex who identify with the other sex. Is that right? My confusion at this point with regard to sexual attraction is: are transgender persons sexually attracted to a) the opposite sex? b) their sex? c)to their particular transgender d) or what? (Now, I'm assuming we aren't talking about transsexuals.)
   3128. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:40 AM (#5518337)
But isn't hastily leaving Afghanistan practically begging for another Syria?


It's been 16 years... if everybody exits tomorrow, there still won't be any hastily about it.
   3129. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:41 AM (#5518338)
My confusion at this point with regard to sexual attraction is: are transgender persons sexually attracted to a) the opposite sex? b) their sex? c)to their particular transgender d) or what?


Being Transgender is about what sex you identify yourself as truly being. Sexual attraction is about who you are sexually attracted to. The two are not linked directly. A transgender person can be attracted to anyone one or no one, straight, gay, bi, or asexual. Generally (in my experience) Trans folk are attracted to who they are attracted to and that doesn't change no matter how they are self identifying.

Edit: Though obviously how it is termed changes. So my ex identified as female when we met and was attracted to me (obviously) and so was generally considered "straight". When my ex became transgender and began identifying as male that didn't change their attraction to me, as so at that point could be considered "gay". Which is how I ended up married to a gay male before same sex marriage was legal in my state.
   3130. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5518341)
Funny how presidential candidates who are vehemently against overseas military adventures, either starting them or continuing them, end up doing exactly that when they become president.
   3131. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5518342)
Something I could stand some clarification on: the "T" in LGBT stands for transgender and refers to persons of one particular sex who identify with the other sex. Is that right? My confusion at this point with regard to sexual attraction is: are transgender persons sexually attracted to a) the opposite sex? b) their sex? c)to their particular transgender d) or what? (Now, I'm assuming we aren't talking about transsexuals.)

Yes, T is transgender. I doubt trans people's sexual attractions are any more uniform than those of cisgendered folks, though I haven't looked into it closely. (Main point I was making was that it's a mistake to conflate one's gender identity with one's sexual orientation.)

EDIT: Coke to Mouse.
   3132. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5518344)
Funny how both parties are always gungho at the start and a whipped puppy in the end. Maybe you've learned your lesson? (NBL)

You break it, you've bought it. The difference with Trump is that he's not supporting endless war but putting a real end to taking responsibility for the whole globe. Pakistan is largely responsible for enabling the Taliban, like China with PRNK. He campaigned on making regional powers responsible for their own backyards, not Mouse's regurgitated scare tactics of 'abandoned' alliances.

While you folks join the commentariat in an obsession with Trump's foibles, he has been acting steadily on international economics... which includes military aid, support, and strategy. Though it's probably best to blindly keep feeling around on that elephant.
Excuse me? For the most part, Bush handled Afghanistan well. In contrast, Obama's surge, which for the most part was backed by interventionist Republicans, was not my idea of a good time. Not surprisingly, the vast majority of American casualties in the theater occurred on Obama's watch.

As I said above, putting pressure on Pakistan and giving a boost to India is smart rhetoric. But the hope is that all of this tough talk will give cover to a final withdrawal that ought to begin within the next 12 to 24 months.
   3133. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5518345)
"...Trump was President in 2001."


I actually expect TGF to be consistent on the point. I also expect him to hew close to the Bannonite "this is McMaster and the Deep Statez stealing our prezidentz111!!" line as well.

Perros magically not giving a #### about foreign wars now that Trump is looking to do it to prop his domestic numbers is not unexpected at all.
   3134. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5518348)
But isn't hastily leaving Afghanistan practically begging for another Syria?
Different topography, different population, different set of foreign actors, and, unlike Syria, decades of conflict already on the books.
   3135. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5518349)
Excuse me? For the most part, Bush handled Afghanistan well.


Ummm ... not so much in my opinion. But honestly I am tired of re-litigating that mess. You and I just plain disagree on foreign policy.

The real point is, now what? What exactly are we trying to accomplish? What is the goal? How do we know when we are done?

If you don't have a goal and can't tell when you have success then you are doomed to fail, even if as skilled as you think Bush was or as incompetent as most of us think Trump is.
   3136. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5518350)
The difference with Trump is that he's not supporting endless war but putting a real end to taking responsibility for the whole globe.


My god. You really are this ####### dumb, aren't you?
   3137. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5518353)
Who is "You" in this sentiment? It is not me

But it won't keep you from commenting like it is. And as always, you'll wash your hands of any failures and soon pretend they never happened.

Trump may indeed fail here, and everywhere else. He's a political novice with powerful enemies who have a stake in seeing him fail.

But if people were paying attention they'd notice he's slowly but surely jetisoned "supporters" like BannonPriebusetc who are either ideologues or corrupt careerists for pros with some record of success.

Trump has a mixed record at best on so many fronts, but despite the thin skin he just keeps going when he fails, to the point of denying he ever does so.

I still see little coming to terms with a Trump Presidency beyond screams to end it.

   3138. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5518356)
Ummm ... not so much in my opinion. But honestly I am tired of re-litigating that mess. You and I just plain disagree on foreign policy.

The real point is, now what? What exactly are we trying to accomplish? What is the goal? How do we know when we are done?

If you don't have a goal and can't tell when you have success then you are doomed to fail, even if as skilled as you think Bush was or as incompetent as most of us think Trump is.
You may not wish to re-litigate Bush's Afghanistan policy but I hope there's more substance to your criticism than "Bin Laden escaped."
   3139. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5518357)
He's a political novice with powerful enemies who have a stake in seeing him fail.


Teh Deeeeep Staytzzzzzz
   3140. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5518358)
And as always, you'll wash your hands of any failures and soon pretend they never happened.


I didn't fail, I was right the whole time. Ask Sean Hannity.
   3141. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:58 AM (#5518360)
Trump has a mixed record at best on so many fronts,
Yes. A mix of crazy and stupid.
   3142. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:59 AM (#5518361)
You may not wish to re-litigate Bush's Afghanistan policy but I hope there's more substance to your criticism than "Bin Laden escaped."


He decided to remove focus from the fight against the people who attacked us on 9/11, back burner them, and attack a country that had nothing to do with anything, because his team had a decades long hard on for killing Saddam Hussein. It was literally the worst FP decision of the last 100 years.
   3143. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:59 AM (#5518362)
If y'all are seriously on board against endless war, I'll stop with this pragmatic take. But it's more like "let's put this failure behind us because there's always the next war."

You obviously didn't hear the same speech some acquaintances who've been to Afghanistan heard.
   3144. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5518363)
3129

Thanks. One can generalize that persons of the male sex are sexually attracted to persons of female sex--and vice versa. And, furthermore, a homosexual is still someone sexually attracted to members of his own sex. But, from what you say, a person of the female sex who identifies as male sex could be sexually attracted to members of his/her own sex, the sex she/he identifies with, or, of course, both (like a bisexual in that way)? If so, that's clear enough. I thought that there might be studies or stats at this time that allow generalizations in some fashion, like with male and female heterosexuals or homosexuals. But, there are no preferential indications that can be ascribed to the transgender group, you say?
   3145. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5518364)
A mix of crazy and stupid.


That explains how perros supports him.
   3146. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5518365)
Teh Deeeeep Staytzzzzzz

So all the people opposing him are fakers like you?
   3147. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:01 AM (#5518366)
If y'all are seriously on board against endless war, I'll stop with this pragmatic take. But it's more like "let's put this failure behind us because there's always the next war."

You obviously didn't hear the same speech some acquaintances who've been to Afghanistan heard.


They heard what they wanted to hear from a snake oil salesman who will say anything to increase his personal popularity and/or wealth.
   3148. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5518367)
He decided to remove focus from the fight against the people who attacked us on 9/11, back burner them, and attack a country that had nothing to do with anything, because his team had a decades long hard on for killing Saddam Hussein. It was literally the worst FP decision of the last 100 years.
LMAO. Remove the focus to do WHAT, genius? On the campaign trail, Obama repeatedly talked of Afghanistan being the good war yet somehow managed to leave the country in worse shape than he found it.
   3149. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:03 AM (#5518368)
A mix of crazy and stupid.
How do you know which is which?
   3150. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5518369)
I actually expect TGF to be consistent on the point.


Doing anything military in Afghanistan is a fool's errand at this point.

I also expect him to hew close to the Bannonite "this is McMaster and the Deep Statez stealing our prezidentz111!!" line as well.


The DC establishmentarians are the only influential people left in Trump's admin at this point, so of course they want MOAR SURGINGS in Afghanistan. Dubya's admin engaged in dumbshittery in Afghanistan, Obama's admin was the same, and now we're seeing Trump's admin go down the same road. But only crazy people notice the Deep State! It's just, like, a coincidence that three very different Presidents with very different priorities and world views keep doing the exact same stupid thing in the exact same stupid place. Juuuuuuust a coincidence.
   3151. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5518371)
Are there or are there not competent members of the Administration in key positions of power and influence?
   3152. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5518373)
How do you know which is which?


There's literally no practical reason to care which is which.
   3153. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5518374)
So what is the latest on Trump and North Korea? Has he browbeaten it into submission? Things change so mercurially with this president so fast that it's hard to know where he stands or is as to any issue.
   3154. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5518376)
e very different Presidents with very different priorities and world views keep doing the exact same stupid thing in the exact same stupid place. Juuuuuuust a coincidence.

Deep State is just another term for established power. Of course they know it's there -- many voices here have proclaimed support for techno/bureau rule, which is pretty much the def of today's Democrats.

It's likely the same old with the same results, but Trump has sided with the generals. Probably his best bet considering the alternatives.
   3155. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5518378)
But only crazy people notice the Deep State!


Rebranding Teh Cathedrazls for millennials.
   3156. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5518379)
I'm on the record for MASSIVE FAIL no matter who's captain of this foundering ship of state.
   3157. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5518382)
It's just, like, a coincidence that three very different Presidents with very different priorities and world views keep doing the exact same stupid thing in the exact same stupid place. Juuuuuuust a coincidence.


Is the Deep State necessarily something nefarious? I guess I don't understand the term. When I see the above I think there's a fairly simply conclusion: when Politician X finally gets into the White House and sits in front of the generals and non-political experts that actually understand the situation, those experts keep recommending the same things, and the politician sets aside whatever grandstanding he did on the campaign and actually does what he thinks is best.

I'm conflicted here, I have no idea what the right path in Afghanistan is and I'm probably not in favor of a surge there, but anything that makes Trump look more like a normal president gets a thumbs up from me.
   3158. BrianBrianson Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5518383)
Doing anything military in Afghanistan is a fool's errand at this point.


Anything might be difficult. But it's foolish to do anything without a plan and without a sense of what it would mean, including doing nothing.
   3159. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5518385)
Deep State is just another term for established power. Of course they know it's there -- many voices here have proclaimed support for techno/bureau rule, which is pretty much the def of today's Democrats.


You put a sane person in charge of things and I'll think about supporting the disengagement of the MIC and Jason's "bomb everything for funs!" preferred advisors in DC. As long as a ####### clownfish neo-fascist is in charge, #### you and everything you care about.
   3160. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:17 AM (#5518388)
Is the Deep State necessarily something nefarious?


Not for TGF. He'd love to use "the Deep State" to round up Muslims and put them all in pens, for example.
   3161. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:19 AM (#5518389)
If so, that's clear enough. I thought that there might be studies or stats at this time that allow generalizations in some fashion, like with male and female heterosexuals or homosexuals. But, there are no preferential indications that can be ascribed to the transgender group, you say?


I can only speak to my experience (which means interactions with less than a dozen transgender people). I have not looked at any relevant literature, so I could be wrong, but I think you should generally assume that who one is attracted to and how they self identify are different and mostly independent.

Really in general the best method I have found is to accept what other people say and feel about themselves. It is their life and if they think about their gender in way "X" and are attracted to "Y" then so long as it is all consenting adults I don't judge or really even care much past acknowledging their preference is theirs and as valid as my preferences are.
   3162. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:19 AM (#5518390)
So what is the latest on Trump and North Korea? Has he browbeaten it into submission?

Triangulation is making a comeback, kid.
   3163. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5518391)
If y'all are seriously on board against endless war, I'll stop with this pragmatic take.


Once more who on Earth are you addressing this to? I am among the most anti-war people on this board. Your "drunk post" style has again led you into a cul-de-sac of dumb. Turn left until you see the light and walk in that direction, you might find your way to the clue store. Buy a clue.
   3164. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5518392)
Once more who on Earth are you addressing this to?


Himself, as always.
   3165. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5518393)
They heard what they wanted to hear

They literally have skin in the game.
   3166. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5518394)
What's the latest on Trump and the Iranian regime...?

Iran says only 5 days needed to ramp up uranium enrichment:
Iran's atomic chief warned Tuesday the Islamic Republic needs only five days to ramp up its uranium enrichment to 20 percent, a level at which the material could be used for a nuclear weapon.

The comments by Ali Akbar Salehi to Iranian state television come as U.S. President Donald Trump repeatedly has threatened to renegotiate or walk away from the 2015 nuclear deal...

"If there is a plan for a reaction and a challenge, we will definitely surprise them... If we make the determination, we are able to resume 20 percent-enrichment in at most five days."

He added: "Definitely, we are not interested in such a thing happening. We have not achieved the deal easily to let it go easily." ...

The Obama administration and most independent experts said at the time of the deal that Iran would need at least a year after abandoning the deal to have enough nuclear material to build a bomb. Before the deal was struck, they said the timeframe for Iran to "break out" toward a bomb was a couple of months.

While the economic benefits of the deal have yet to reach the average Iranian, airlines in the country have signed deals for billions of dollars of aircraft from Airbus and Boeing. Car manufacturers and others have swept into the Iranian market as well as the country has boosted its oil sales. Abandoning the deal would put those economic gains in jeopardy.
Oh.
   3167. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5518395)
But, there are no preferential indications that can be ascribed to the transgender group, you say?


Anecdotally, it's a hodge-podge. Some are out gays and lesbians. Some are married to other gender/sexes. Some take what the gods give them on a given day.
   3168. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5518396)
Himself, as always.

Jason is head cheerleader #1, but he doesn't pretend to be against bad wars and for good wars... at least 'til they turn bad. Inevitably.
   3169. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5518397)
There was an NPR piece once on a fellow that felt that he switched genders multiple times throughout the day. Sounded exhausting.
   3170. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5518398)
Where will the next generation of Scott Adams' political admirers come from?

You'll excuse me for not laughing at this. Pretty sure my unborn son, even if the screening is accurate, will grow up to be more logical and rational than Ray. He'll certainly know that there's no such thing as a G**D*mn catcher's throwing lane.


Indeed. I'll take my sister's acumen on just about any subject, short of Hawaii 5-0 & Frasier crap, over Raybot's.
   3171. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5518400)
Jason is head cheerleader #1, but he doesn't pretend to be against bad wars and for good wars...


Jacquelyn has never seen a war he thought was "bad."
   3172. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:29 AM (#5518402)
Conor McGregor currently sitting at +325. Anyone who takes that action is Trump-level stupid.


Paddy Power has Mayweather at 1/4 right now. If he gets to 1/3 I think it might be time to pull the trigger, but I can't quiet that nagging voice telling me Mayweather is going to throw this fight. He's a proud, arrogant bastard, but he'll never see an easier 9 figure payday than a rematch with McGregor. What's the alternative for him if he wants another huge payday? Step into the ring with Golovkin? Screw that noise.
   3173. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5518403)
You may not wish to re-litigate Bush's Afghanistan policy but I hope there's more substance to your criticism than "Bin Laden escaped."


Once more (since I guess ome have not had their morning coffee) I have no interest in re-litigating this subject for the 1001st time. The heart of the matter is ...

The real point is, now what? What exactly are we trying to accomplish? What is the goal? How do we know when we are done?

If you don't have a goal and can't tell when you have success then you are doomed to fail, even if as skilled as you think Bush was or as incompetent as most of us think Trump is.


If you can't answer that question then I don't care what exactly your plan is, it is doomed to fail. Once you answer that question then we can have a meaningful discussion.


EDIT: the "you" in the above is a non-specific "you" and not aimed at JE specifically.
   3174. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5518404)
Are there or are there not competent members of the Administration in key positions of power and influence?


Well he has a pro-wrestling promoter in the cabinet, that's why he's doing such a fine job suckering the rubes. Be nice if he had some scientists, but scientists don't have the requisite skills at fleecing the marks.
   3175. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5518405)
Jason is head cheerleader #1, but he doesn't pretend to be against bad wars and for good wars... at least 'til they turn bad. Inevitably.
LOL. Dude, don't blame me for your morning incontinence incoherence.
   3176. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5518406)
I know he's not Money for nothin', but how many millions does he need? I would have to believe, given everything, not losing means a little to him.
   3177. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5518408)
There was an NPR piece once on a fellow that felt that he switched genders multiple times throughout the day. Sounded exhausting.


Word. But then again some folks run marathons, triathlons and hundred mile races. So long as they don't expect me to do what they do and they don't want special credit for it, hey have a good time with that.
   3178. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5518410)
Long After Protests, Students Shun the University of Missouri:
Before the protests, the university, fondly known as Mizzou, was experiencing steady growth and building new dormitories. Now, with budget cuts due to lost tuition and a decline in state funding, the university is temporarily closing seven dormitories and cutting more than 400 positions, including those of some nontenured faculty members, through layoffs and by leaving open jobs unfilled.

Few areas have been spared: The library is even begging for books.

“The general consensus was that it was because of the aftermath of what happened in November 2015,” said Mun Choi, the new system president, referring to the climax of the demonstrations. “There were students from both in state and out of state that just did not apply, or those who did apply but decided not to attend.”

The protests inspired movements at other colleges. Since then fights over overt and subconscious racial slights, as well as battles over free speech, have broken out at Middlebury College in Vermont, the University of California, Berkeley, and The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash. Missouri’s experience shows how a conflict, if not deftly handled, can stain a college’s reputation long after the conflict has died down.

Students of all races have shunned Missouri, but the drop in freshman enrollment last fall was strikingly higher among blacks, at 42 percent, than among whites, at 21 percent. (A racial breakdown was not yet available for this fall’s freshman class.)

Black students were already a small minority. They made up 10 percent of the freshman class in 2012, a proportion that fell to just 6 percent last fall.
Is there a lesson here for other schools, particularly those that aren't among the nation's elite?
   3179. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5518411)
.
Don't blame me

Sorry for the mistake, you'd turn tail and run with Mouse if you ever got near any of the wars you lust for.

   3180. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5518413)
2. Conflating the L, G, B, and T as if being gay and being trans were remotely the same thing.


If they're not remotely the same thing, why are they linked together in the same LGBT grouping?

I don't see an S in there for straight.

When it was just the original LGB it seems you had an argument, but once the T is added I think your argument goes out the window.
   3181. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5518414)
Word. But then again some folks run marathons, triathlons and hundred mile races. So long as they don't expect me to do what they do and they don't want special credit for it, hey have a good time with that.


Let me be more clear on the daily gender transformer. It wasn't his choice. It was something he was subject to. He could feel a change coming on and before you knew it his voice changed a bit, his opinions changed, his outlook on life changed. Then they would change back. I don't recall if his sexual preferences changed. Maybe he was just crazy, but the hosts of whatever podcast it was took it seriously.
   3182. Lassus Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5518415)
but I can't quiet that nagging voice telling me Mayweather is going to throw this fight. He's a proud, arrogant bastard, but he'll never see an easier 9 figure payday than a rematch with McGregor. What's the alternative for him if he wants another huge payday? Step into the ring with Golovkin? Screw that noise.

Don't you think that losing in some non-embarrassing fashion would make McGregor (and therefore Mayweather) want a rematch? Seems the latter could in this case have his cake and eat it too.
   3183. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5518416)
I don't see an S in there for straight.


Ha.
   3184. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5518417)
Sorry for the mistake, you'd turn tail and run with Mouse if you ever got near any of the wars you lust for.
Why would I do that? Mouse is now a happily engaged man. :)
   3185. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5518419)
What's the latest on Trump and the Iranian regime...?

Iran says only 5 days needed to ramp up uranium enrichment:
Iran's atomic chief warned Tuesday the Islamic Republic needs only five days to ramp up its uranium enrichment to 20 percent, a level at which the material could be used for a nuclear weapon.

The comments by Ali Akbar Salehi to Iranian state television come as U.S. President Donald Trump repeatedly has threatened to renegotiate or walk away from the 2015 nuclear deal...

"If there is a plan for a reaction and a challenge, we will definitely surprise them... If we make the determination, we are able to resume 20 percent-enrichment in at most five days."

He added: "Definitely, we are not interested in such a thing happening. We have not achieved the deal easily to let it go easily." ...

The Obama administration and most independent experts said at the time of the deal that Iran would need at least a year after abandoning the deal to have enough nuclear material to build a bomb. Before the deal was struck, they said the timeframe for Iran to "break out" toward a bomb was a couple of months.

While the economic benefits of the deal have yet to reach the average Iranian, airlines in the country have signed deals for billions of dollars of aircraft from Airbus and Boeing. Car manufacturers and others have swept into the Iranian market as well as the country has boosted its oil sales. Abandoning the deal would put those economic gains in jeopardy.

Oh.
I'm not surprised by this.

With the framework, Iran can't do whatever they want to develop material for a bomb. What the Iranian official is saying is that without the framework (if Trump abandons the deal), they can ramp up quickly.
   3186. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5518421)
Being Transgender is about what sex you identify yourself as truly being. Sexual attraction is about who you are sexually attracted to. The two are not linked directly.


That doesn't really follow. Women are typically attracted to men. So if you're a man who identifies as a woman you should be attracted to men, as most women are. You're acting like it's all just random and women have just as much chance of being attracted to men as they do to women. That's not the case.
   3187. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5518422)
With the framework, Iran can't do whatever they want to develop material for a bomb. What the Iranian official is saying is that without the framework (if Trump abandons the deal), they can ramp up quickly.
As the article points out, that's not how the nuke deal got sold. Salehi's remarks indicate the deal is so flimsy the regime in Tehran can reconstitute its weapons-grade enrichment capability in less than a week.

And meanwhile, whaddaya know?
Cash-flush Iran building missile plants all over Syria and Lebanon
So... all that sanctions relief isn't being spent on roads and bridges inside Iran?

#ThanksObama
   3188. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5518423)
Remember the commercial, "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature." When the argument turns to biology doesn't matter, it's all socially engineered and you exerting a wilful mind over matter, I tend to turn a skeptical and jaundiced eye on such pronouncements. Someone's fooling someone by trying hard to fool himself, is my first impression. Any proposition that becomes ah, it doesn't matter, who cares, we can't tell and why should we, I want to say, okay, you're excused. We and everyone in our lineage have not been all created ex nihilo where a Sartreian-like assertion of will is all that matters and all that need be considered.
   3189. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5518426)
That doesn't really follow. Women are typically attracted to men. So if you're a man who identifies as a woman you should be attracted to men, as most women are. You're acting like it's all just random and women have just as much chance of being attracted to men as they do to women. That's not the case.


You can take the boy out of Sudbury, but you can't take Sudbury out of the boy.
   3190. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5518427)
Iran's atomic chief warned Tuesday the Islamic Republic needs only five days to ramp up its uranium enrichment to 20 percent, a level at which the material could be used for a nuclear weapon.

The comments by Ali Akbar Salehi to Iranian state television come as U.S. President Donald Trump repeatedly has threatened to renegotiate or walk away from the 2015 nuclear deal...

"If there is a plan for a reaction and a challenge, we will definitely surprise them... If we make the determination, we are able to resume 20 percent-enrichment in at most five days."

He added: "Definitely, we are not interested in such a thing happening. We have not achieved the deal easily to let it go easily." ...

The Obama administration and most independent experts said at the time of the deal that Iran would need at least a year after abandoning the deal to have enough nuclear material to build a bomb. Before the deal was struck, they said the timeframe for Iran to "break out" toward a bomb was a couple of months.

Good to know that we can now believe everything Iran's atomic chief says.
   3191. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5518428)
@BarackObama:
VP Biden on Afghanistan: "We are leaving in 2014. Period."
Good times.
   3192. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:00 AM (#5518430)
Deep State is just another term for established power.


Close, but I'd add the word "institutional" to that description . The Congressional bodies are established power, but they can change dramatically every 2 years. Not very Deep. The Deep State is more a collection of institutions like the military, various government agencies and administrative organizations, the MSM, corporations that are deeply in bed with the government, etc. The Deep State is why, whenever candidates for POTUS promise change, they never actually seem to be able to change much of anything. Because actually changing things would piss off too many powerful interests.

This is why I've been saying for years that the future of USG is going to be a sort of Brezhnevian stagnation; sheer inertial will keep the rotten edifice moving for a while in an increasing state of decay and dysfunction, but eventually the entire thing is going to collapse under its own weight. The interesting question is who will play Gorbachev when the time comes?
   3193. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5518432)
On a lighter note -- regarding abortion, no less -- I've never cared for the movies of Alexander Payne, particularly the overrated election, with one exception:

Citizen Ruth.
   3194. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5518435)
Good to know that we can now believe everything Iran's atomic chief says.
Weak sauce. Your side believes everything the regime says about being in compliance. Here, the top nuke official -- and previously, President Rouhani -- is making a threat to withdraw from the deal if the administration, as required under Corker-Cardin, is unable to certify that the mullahs are adhering to its terms and being fully transparent.
   3195. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5518438)
I may not always make sense to you*, but at least you* don't confuse me with Morty anymore.

*OTP Collective
   3196. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5518439)
Yes, T is transgender. I doubt trans people's sexual attractions are any more uniform than those of cisgendered folks, though I haven't looked into it closely. (Main point I was making was that it's a mistake to conflate one's gender identity with one's sexual orientation.)


There has to be a strong correlation for it to make sense, as I said. Being male is strongly correlated to being attracted to women. So identifying as male should be also.

If you know a person's "assigned gender at birth" then you'll be able to guess correctly at which gender the person is attracted to, most of the time. You guys act like it's all a tossup.
   3197. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5518440)
Don't you think that losing in some non-embarrassing fashion would make McGregor (and therefore Mayweather) want a rematch? Seems the latter could in this case have his cake and eat it too.


The trouble with that is if McGregor loses in a non-embarrassing fashion, it almost certainly means we saw a boring fight. I'm sure both fighters would be happy to stay on the merry-go-round forever as long as the 9 figure paychecks keep coming, but public interest in watching Mayweather dance circles around McGregor outpointing him is going to decline dramatically after they've seen it once.

   3198. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5518441)
Are there or are there not competent members of the Administration in key positions of power and influence?
There are not. Other than Javanka, nobody appears to have any influence over Trump.
   3199. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5518442)
Relevant to our current Afghanistan debate:

Why Vietnam Was Unwinnable

While I was working for the Pentagon in the early 2000s, wounded veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan were routinely bused down from Walter Reed Hospital, in Northwest Washington, D.C., to receive their medals. It was a heart-rending experience to see these young men and women, many of them missing eyes, arms, legs or even multiple limbs, being wheeled through the building.

As a trained military historian who had specialized in the Vietnam War, I couldn’t help thinking about that earlier conflict as I watched them slowly making their way down the Pentagon’s corridors. And I wasn’t the only one. Many prominent figures in the government, military and media were drawing parallels with the Vietnam War, and a surprising number of them suggested that its lessons offered hope for victory in Iraq.

Those who made this argument contended that the United States had been on the verge of winning in Vietnam, but threw its chance for victory away because of negative press and a resulting failure of political will at home. This “lost victory” thesis originated with the Nixon administration and its supporters back in the 1970s, but gained considerable traction in the 1980s and ’90s after it was taken up by a group of influential revisionist historians, including Mark Moyar and Lewis S. Sorley III.

Taking their cue from the Vietnam revisionists, Iraq war optimists argued that just as Americans thought we were losing in Vietnam when in fact we were winning, so too were we winning in Iraq despite apparent evidence to the contrary. The problem, the optimists argued, was that — just as during the Vietnam War — naysaying pundits and politicians were not merely undermining popular support for the war, but giving our enemies hope that they could win by waiting for the American people to lose their will to continue the fight.

This kind of talk alarmed me because it discouraged a frank reassessment of our failing strategy in Iraq, which was producing that weekly procession of maimed veterans. And I also knew that the historical premises on which it was based were deeply flawed. America did not experience a “lost victory” in Vietnam; in fact, victory was likely out of reach from the beginning....

Although the United States undoubtedly had the means to prevail in Vietnam, the war was unwinnable at the level of commitment and sacrifice that our nation was willing to sustain. As the renowned historian George Herring put it, the war could not “have been ‘won’ in any meaningful sense at a moral or material cost most Americans deemed acceptable.”

Perhaps the key lesson of Vietnam is that if the reasons for going to war are not compelling enough for our leaders to demand that all Americans make sacrifices in pursuit of victory, then perhaps we should not go to war at all. Sacrifice should not be demanded solely of those who risk life and limb for their country in combat theaters overseas.

Kevin Boylan is a military historian at the University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh and the author of “Losing Binh Dinh: The Failure of Pacification and Vietnamization, 1969-1971.” He worked for the Department of Defense and Army staff’s War Plans Division from 1995 to 2005.


   3200. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5518444)
The Deep State is a psychological condition that combines the paradoxical states of paranoid mania with trance-like serenity and comfort in that paranoid mania.

Various forms of treatment - talk therapy, medication, etc - have proven ineffective.

Most experts believe the only rudimentary treatment that shows any promise is a pat on the head, giving the Deep State sufferer a cookie, and dropping spare change in the cup they're holding out while wearing the sandwich board and ringing the bell.
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