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Monday, October 16, 2017

OTP 16 October 2017: Sorry, Yankee fans: Trump’s claim that he can ensure victory simply isn’t true

As is sometimes the case with Trump’s tweet’s, his claims don’t hold up. We identified 14 games that Trump has attended since 1988, including two preseason games and the game above. Of those 14 games, the Yankees won eight and lost six — 57 percent of the time during seasons when the Yankees won 60 percent of their games overall.

In other words — Trump might be a jinx.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2017 at 07:49 AM | 1967 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, playoffs, politics, yankees

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   1201. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5558056)
If the spokesperson is lying, then Trump reneged on his promise. If the spokesperson isn't lying, then Trump reneged on his promise until after he was caught.


"Reneged on his promise until after he was caught." Uh-huh. Also known as "Did not renege on his promise."

Did Trump promise the check within a certain time period?
   1202. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5558057)
Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump sent a $25,000 personal check to the family of a fallen soldier the same day that The Washington Post reported that he had promised the soldier's father a personal donation during a June condolence call but never followed through.


Fake news. Hadn't yet followed through.

It's rather delicious that it was Trump's own big, fat mouth that triggered the events that led to him having to pay the promised $25k ...


Insulting him for handing $25,000 to a grieving military father is not a sane look.
   1203. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5558058)
1201


"Reneged on his promise until after he was caught." Uh-huh. Also known as "Did not renege on his promise."

Did Trump promise the check within a certain time period?


Could you split that hair a little finer? And maybe be disingenuous about it? Please?
   1204. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5558059)
With RDP there's the additional tendency to bulldoze through nuance. You and I and most people can recognize that any number of things can happen between "promises money" and "delivers money" that are worthy of comment and can color the act of charity in good or bad ways. Ray cannot.


You say "nuance." I say derangement.

He promised to give the man $25,000 out of his own pocket, and he sent a check for $25,000. The four months is immaterial to me. What is material is that he gave the man $25,000 out of his own pocket.
   1205. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5558060)
But I hope Misirlou now understands what a full throated defense looks like, so he won't be confused the next time when I don't comment substantively on a topic and yet Misirlou fake newsily casts it as a full-throated defense.
   1206. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5558062)
"Reneged on his promise until after he was caught." Uh-huh. Also known as "Did not renege on his promise."
Or, to sane people, known as reneging.


Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump sent a $25,000 personal check to the family of a fallen soldier the same day that The Washington Post reported that he had promised the soldier's father a personal donation during a June condolence call but never followed through.

Fake news. Hadn't yet followed through.
That's right; every time someone says something "never" happened they are lying, since in fact it could still happen at some indeterminate point in the future, thereby retroactively making the true statement into a lie.


it's rather delicious that it was Trump's own big, fat mouth that triggered the events that led to him having to pay the promised $25k ...

Insulting him for handing $25,000 to a grieving military father is not a sane look.
Reading becoming even more fundamental. You are lying about what CoB said. Not a single person other than SBB has insulted Trump for handing $25,000 to a grieving military father; SBB called it unethical.
   1207. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5558063)
I think Ray needs to stop obsessing on the $25,000 and unplug and enjoy life. He sounds a bit deranged on the subject.
   1208. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5558064)
Reading becoming even more fundamental. You are lying about what CoB said. Not a single person other than SBB has insulted Trump for handing $25,000 to a grieving military father;


That's what this entire dustup is. Trump did something nice for someone by handing him $25,000 and is getting #### for it.
   1209. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5558065)
Ray, #1204:
You say "nuance." I say derangement.


When someone says "Knock, knock," you say derangement. When someone says "Marco!" you say derangement.
   1210. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5558066)
It's rather delicious that it was Trump's own big, fat mouth that triggered the events that led to him having to pay the $25k ...
I know this is a quibble, and I clearly am put out by the welching aspect, but let's not lose sight of the end result, which is that the grieving family got some help. Which is, oddly enough, Ray's point, even though Ray is lying like a rug about the overall context of the criticism.

Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about. That he followed through is a Good Thing.

It's unfortunate for Trump and his tattered reputation that it took, essentially, public shaming for him to "remember" his pledge, and it's sadly within Trump's character to draw conclusions (evidence: past lawsuits by vendors) that he was welching *purposefully*, but we don't actually know whether he simply forgot, or what. And, as David pointed out, "I forgot" wouldn't fly as any kind of defense in even a kangaroo court.

   1211. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5558068)
Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about.


Obviously.
   1212. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5558070)
1207

I think Ray needs to stop obsessing on the $25,000 and unplug and enjoy life. He sounds a bit deranged on the subject.


And by that same token, can we safely say that Clapper might be suffering from HDS?
   1213. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5558071)
It's unfortunate for Trump and his tattered reputation that


...TDS is an actual thing, but here we are.
   1214. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5558073)
In the same way that none of us "have the slightest idea" whether Neil Armstrong really landed on the moon, I suppose. We weren't on the moon to witness it, after all.

But here on planet earth, the WH spokesperson said "A check has been sent." That provides us with a slightest idea.


With the exception that Neil Armstrong doesn't have a long and well-documented history of lying about various space flight exploits, and NASA isn't populated by spokespeople who likewise have quickly developed a well-documented history of backing up his lies, sure.... it's EXACTLY like that.

But everybody else is the deranged, crazy person.

I mean, I suppose none of us has the slightest idea whether it was actually Donald Trump that landed on the moon, either.

I think the main difference is that you (and SBB) would give him the benefit of the doubt if he made such a claim, while the rest of us would not.
   1215. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5558074)
1210

Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about. That he followed through is a Good Thing.


I agree, but up until that point, Trump was treating the poor guy like everybody else he's ever done business with...
   1216. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:59 AM (#5558077)
I endorse #1210
   1217. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5558078)
He promised to give the man $25,000 out of his own pocket, and he sent a check for $25,000. The four months is immaterial to me. What is material is that he gave the man $25,000 out of his own pocket.


I will give you $50,000 if you'll spend one entire day not covering for your boy Trump.
   1218. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5558079)
He promised to give the man $25,000 out of his own pocket, and he sent a check for $25,000. The four months is immaterial to me.
Let's say you promise to give someone a ride to the airport for a 6:00 flight. Your friend has no other way to get there. Instead of picking him up at 3:00, you don't show up until 5:00 and get to the airport at 5:45. Your friend misses the flight.

You promised to give him a ride, and you did, right? The two hours are immaterial to Ray.

   1219. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5558080)
Did Trump promise the check within a certain time period?
That might be relevant in evaluating a legal cause of action against Trump; it's not relevant to evaluating his character. Seriously, Ray, you sound like a seven year old.

"I want you to do your homework."
"Okay, Mom. I'll do it."
... the day passes ....
"It's bedtime! Why didn't you do your homework like you said you would?"
"I didn't say when I'd do it."

You're embarrassing yourself -- and unlike SBB, you aren't anonymous. (No, that isn't a threat to out you or go after you IRL; I would never -- and by never I really mean never -- do that. But I am noting that it's really -- to use your parlance -- not a good look, and some people do know who you are. How could anyone trust the word of someone who made this juvenile or transparently disingenuous of an argument? If a judge ordered you to take some brief action, such as supplying your adversary with a document in your possession, and you said, "Yes, Your Honor; I'll do that," and then you let a week or two go by, fine. If you let four months go by, and your only excuse to the Court was, "Well, you never set a deadline," you'd be very lucky to escape sanctions.)
   1220. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5558081)
"I want you to do your homework."
"Okay, Mom. I'll do it."
... the day passes ....
"It's bedtime! Why didn't you do your homework like you said you would?"
"I didn't say when I'd do it."


I can make this example better:

"I want you to do your homework."
"Okay, Mom. I'll do it."
... the day passes ....
... morning comes ...
Teacher: "Where's your homework?"
"Things got complicated, I'll get it done."
Teacher: "You can do it in detention."
... completes homework in detention ...
... afternoon passes ...
Mom: "Detention? WTF? You said you'd do the homework!"
"I did do it, didn't I?"
   1221. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5558083)
Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about. That he followed through is a Good Thing.


Sure.

What is making the Trumpkins look foolish is that they're either oblivious to or doing some sort of weird past acts are not admissible thing that he has done this precise thing many, many times before --

I.e., just in the last few months --

Trump promised millions to charity. We found less than $10,000 over 7 years.

Donald Trump Promised His Book Proceeds To Charity. So What Happened To Them?

Trump’s camp made three big promises to donate money to charity. What happened?

The Trump Inaugural Committee Promised Charity Donations — So Where Are They?

Four months after fundraiser, Trump says he gave $1 million to veterans group

I mean, FFS....

He's gotta be the most forgetful philanthropist in the world.

I might suggest that he start carrying his checkbook around with him and just write the checks on the spot...
   1222. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5558084)
I suppose Ray would be perfectly happy if Bivens hadn't paid up yet, and didn't until next January. The point is he paid, right? There's no way he be calling a reneger in the meantime, right?
   1223. Omineca Greg Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5558085)
The Canadian prime minister R.B. Bennett gave a lot of his personal fortune to citizens, both when he was a regular MP, and when he was prime minister.

He was prime minister from 1930 to 1935, and he had strong beliefs against the welfare state. He wasn't against personal charity though, so when people wrote him with their troubles, lots of times he would put them in touch with his personal charitable organisation, or he would write the person back and put money in with the letter. He figured over the time he was in office, he gave $2.3 million to different Canadians. He was a very wealthy man.

He is generally considered to be one of Canada's worst prime ministers
   1224. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5558086)
Trump did something nice for someone by handing him $25,000 and is getting #### for it.


If the guy getting the money is good, then surely the Wapo's investigation, which was the proximate cause of it happening*, is a good thing.

*Which assumes it's happening at all - foolish.
   1225. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5558087)
Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about.

Obviously.
No, Ray. Not obvious. Possible.

The reason it makes a difference is that American citizens, not to mention other world leaders, expect a POTUS to be on top of details like that. And that when they say things, they mean them, and follow through - particularly when they say something that seriously affects other people's lives, which covers most of the things POTUS does and says. I know that you believe it's ridiculous to expect my President to have any redeeming moral qualities, but I guess I can't help it.
   1226. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5558088)
Trump didn't *have* to do anything. It's entirely possible (not joking here) it was a noble, spontaneous gesture that Trump simply forgot about.
Again, the thing is that we're not writing on a blank slate. Trump does not make noble gestures. Trump has a long history of making promises -- charitable pledges as well as binding commitments -- and refusing to follow through on them.

To be sure, it's vaguely possible that he forgot about this promise -- though I'm pretty sure that if I just consoled the family member of someone who just died on my watch, I would not forget the conversation, plus Trump routinely boasts about how awesome his memory is -- but I don't think he could possibly have forgotten that when he was a crybaby who was scared of Megyn Kelly and held a veterans' fundraiser so that he wouldn't have to face her at a debate, he pledged $1M. And he didn't follow through on that either until the Washington Post caught him.


EDIT: Indeed, the most likely explanation for why he would "simply forget about" such a pledge to this father is because he never intended to follow through.
   1227. BDC Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5558089)
From a few pages back:

How many $25,000 checks to military fathers have you written?

This cracked me up, because I write checks amounting to more than that, every year, to a military mother. (Not that she is bereaved or anything; her son, who's my son too, is alive and well and on active duty.)

But we're at the point where even middle-class Internet doofuses are outdoing Donald Trump on random measures of largesse :-D
   1228. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5558090)
If the guy getting the money is good, then surely the Wapo's investigation, which was the proximate cause of it happening*, is a good thing.
Bingo. So Ray should be praising the Washington Post. And yet he's demonizing them for causing the guy to get his money when it otherwise was never going to happen. Sounds pretty deranged of him to me.
   1229. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5558092)
Every month, I find a worth gold star family and write them a $25,001 check....

Where's MY always-on-duty devoted band of defenders!??!?!
   1230. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5558093)
Trump did something nice for someone by handing him $25,000 and is getting #### for it.
Please. Stop. Lying.

He got #### for doing something that's anti-nice: promising charity and not following through. He never handed the guy a penny.
   1231. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5558094)
Was Bennett actually bad, or did he have the obvious misfortune of being elected at the start of the Great Depression?
   1232. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5558095)
Anyway, this conversation underlines something that's pretty clear to me. What the Trumpophiles see as Trump Derangement Syndrome is actually Trumpophile Derangement Syndrome. If Ray or SBB says something as simple as, "Yeah, Trump doesn't look good here, but at least he paid eventually" then this conversation goes nowhere. The reason these things drag on is not an obsession with Trump - this event was trivial and teaches us absolutely nothing new about his personality or job performance - it's an obsession/fascination/horror with the brutal arguments routinely advanced in his favor on this site. I'm guilty of it too.
   1233. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:17 PM (#5558096)
He is generally considered to be one of Canada's worst prime ministers


Sounds a bit like Herbert Hoover.
   1234. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5558097)
He is generally considered to be one of Canada's worst prime ministers

Sounds a bit like Herbert Hoover.
Who considers Herbert Hoover one of Canada's worst prime ministers?
   1235. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5558098)
Who considers Herbert Hoover one of Canada's worst prime ministers?


Dam builders.
   1236. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5558099)
Well, this should distract everyone from the Great Check Imbroglio:
Workers of firm involved with the discredited and Fake Dossier take the 5th. Who paid for it, Russia, the FBI or the Dems (or all)?
Any discussion of this statement is unhinged.

ETA: Changed the link from the original Twitter to the CNN story. It's rude to Albright people like that; my apologies.

ETA2: I'm sure the Apologia will say it's plausible the Russians were behind some of it, since a lot of the juicy stuff happened IN RUSSIA. Therefore Trump's perfectly reasonable multiple choice question has a perfectly reasonable answer, and it's the first one he mentioned! Why the TDS regarding the rest of it? It's not floating a conspiracy theory, they are clearly dummy answers that are not to be taken literally *or* seriously. It's only your derangement that makes this any kind of issue.

ETA3: I should get paid for doing the heavy lifting for SBB and RDP on this one.
   1237. Omineca Greg Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5558101)
Was Bennett actually bad, or did he have the obvious misfortune of being elected at the start of the Great Depression?


His philosophy of being generally laissez-faire, except for protectionist tariffs, made him the wrong man at the wrong time.

His enormous personal wealth, combined with his unwillingness to do very much about the severe problems the country was facing, gave him a bad image with the public.
   1238. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5558103)
Damn builders.
But enough about Trump.
   1239. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5558106)
Workers of firm involved with the discredited and Fake Dossier take the 5th. Who paid for it, Russia, the FBI or the Dems (or all)?
It would be amazing if it turns out the Russians paid for a dossier critical of Russian involvement in a Presidential campaign. Especially if it turned out to actually be full of information provided by the Russians, that was not fake.

The room would be totally tied together, man.

My money's on China, though. The whole "Russia Russia" thing is a red herring; it was Xi all along.
   1240. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5558108)
And actually, looking over the list, there really aren't any Canadian Prime Ministers I'd call all that bad. For instance, this list, just ends up substituting "was Prime Minister for a short time" for "bad".
   1241. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5558111)
It would be amazing if it turns out the Russians paid for a dossier critical of Russian involvement in a Presidential campaign. Especially if it turned out to actually be full of information provided by the Russians, that was not fake.
It would tie in with this article, though, have to admit. That would be *actual* 12D chess.
   1242. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5558112)
With RDP there's the additional tendency to bulldoze through nuance.


He doesn't pay attention to the "nuance" for the same reason I don't -- he's not afflicted with TDS.

I would again commend to readers the 1981 episode of Taxi, wherein Jim Ignatowski managed to buy a bunch of televisions and video recorders and cable/satellite packages because "everything that matters in the world is on TV." He winds up obsessing about the debate in the Delaware legislature over whether the citizenry should be called "Delawarians" or "Delawarites."

Point being, of course, that the "nuances" available to obsess over don't become legitimate targets of obsession simply because the technological means to obsess over them become readily available.
   1243. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5558113)
He figured over the time he was in office, he gave $2.3 million to different Canadians. He was a very wealthy man.
If that is 2.3 million in 1930's dollars, then that's about 4.1 billion in 2017 dollars. Impressive.
   1244. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5558115)
Which is completely consistent with your concern over the nuances of whether the emails were classified.
   1245. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5558116)

He doesn't pay attention to the "nuance" for the same reason I don't -- he's not afflicted with TDS. doesn't care about the facts.
FTFY
   1246. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5558118)
He doesn't pay attention to the "nuance" for the same reason I don't -- he's not afflicted with TDS.


Ray has exhibited that tendency longer than Donald Trump has been recognized as a political figure.
   1247. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5558121)
He doesn't pay attention to the "nuance" for the same reason I don't -- he's not afflicted with TDS. doesn't care about the facts.


I think RDP has happily admitted that. I'll happily second and third my admission -- I do not care about the facts.

Why? Because I'm not afflicted with TDS.
   1248. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5558122)
Some facts, nuances, and details are more important than others.

Fortunately, we have a very simple factor to determine importance. It rhymes with dump...or pillory.
   1249. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5558123)
And extends it far beyond OTP.
   1250. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:51 PM (#5558124)
Which is completely consistent with your concern over the nuances of whether the emails were classified.


Well, yeah, it is -- since whether the emails were classified goes to whether serious crimes were committed. The difference between that and this is self-evident to any sane observer.

   1251. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5558125)
Because you studied at least some of the facts of Hillary's potential crimes, you must join us in our deranged quest to follow and critique every last word Donald Trump utters and every last action Donald Trump takes.

Said no hinged person, ever.
   1252. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5558126)
SBB, can I make a plea for you to take a break from your many little catchphrases? Your comments are getting more and more tiresome.
   1253. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5558128)
1247

I do not care about the facts.

Why? Because I'm not afflicted with TDS.


Huh?
   1254. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5558129)
Well, yeah, it is -- since whether the emails were classified goes to whether serious crimes were committed. The difference between that and this is self-evident to any sane observer.
But she was morally obligated to act like every other politician. Your HDS is showing.
   1255. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:01 PM (#5558130)
SBB, can I make a plea for you to take a break from your many little catchphrases? Your comments are getting more and more tiresome.
If you read them in the voice of the Annoying Orange, it makes them funner.

Said no hinged person, ever, heheheheheh he he hhehhe
   1256. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5558132)
Well, yeah, it is -- since whether the emails were classified goes to whether serious crimes were committed. The difference between that and this is self-evident to any sane observer.


Of course -- this is why you won't shut up about about Jared and Ivanka use of multiple private e-mail accounts for WH business.

I mean, I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that you and Ray would just give it a rest already and leave the poor Trump spawn alone.
   1257. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5558133)
Of course -- this is why you won't shut up about about Jared and Ivanka use of multiple private e-mail accounts for WH business.


If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

By the way -- are they running for president?
   1258. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5558137)
By the way -- are they running for president?


Well - sort of, yes. A bit vicariously, but they've been wielding the power of the presidency.
   1259. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5558138)
Geez, SBB, I said it was getting tedious...

Now I've got to redo the math to update all the times you've weighed in on it.

Let's see.... *scribble* *scribble*.... carry the one... pivot the table....

That's....

One.
   1260. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5558141)
If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

By the way -- are they running for president?
You mean, like Trump was, with Manafort was his campaign manager? You fully endorse that investigation and (eventual) prosecution, correct?
   1261. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5558142)
worst. OTP. ever.
   1262. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5558143)
Geez, SBB, I said it was getting tedious...

Now I've got to redo the math to update all the times you've weighed in on it.

Let's see.... *scribble* *scribble*.... carry the one... pivot the table....

That's....

One.


If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

If they did something illegal, prosecute them.

There -- I've now weighed in ten times. Shall I cut and paste a couple hundred more times, or can I just get credit for a couple hundred more weigh-ins a la the new intentional walk?
   1263. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5558144)
Because you studied at least some of the facts of Hillary's potential crimes, you must join us in our deranged quest to follow and critique every last word Donald Trump utters and every last action Donald Trump takes.
Nope, just the stupid, immoral, untruthful, and illegal ones.

It's not *our* fault that happens every day.
   1264. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5558145)
There -- I've now weighed in ten times. Shall I cut and paste a couple hundred more times, or can I just get credit for a couple hundred more weigh-ins a la the new intentional walk?


Gee, if it were up to me -- but unfortunately, you chose the calorie-free Concession Accepted route.

I applaud you for choosing the healthy option - but remember; it's still important to maintain a balanced, healthy diet.
   1265. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5558149)
follow and critique every last word Donald Trump utters and every last action Donald Trump takes.
The nerve! Imagine paying attention to the things that the President of the United States says and does!
   1266. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5558152)
This is weird on two levels. At least. Nikki Haley:
"When a country can come interfere in another country's elections, that is warfare," she said.
...
"Everybody knows that Russia meddled in our elections," she said in July. "Everybody knows that they're not just meddling in the United States' election. They're doing this across multiple continents, and they're doing this in a way that they're trying to cause chaos within the countries."
1) I believe it's generally accepted conventional wisdom that we meddle wherever we can get away with it, too. No one is surprised or particularly upset that the Russians meddled, just that they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
2) Russian meddling never happened, it's #FakeNews.
   1267. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5558154)
No one is surprised or particularly upset that the Russians meddled, just that they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.


There isn't a stitch of evidence of "success."

We've been through this.
   1268. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:44 PM (#5558157)
The nerve! Imagine paying attention to the things that the President of the United States says and does!


In fairness, that might cut into the time spent obsessing over the things people say about the President or quote him directly.... and I think we all know that the cornerstone of a well-functioning democracy is ensuring that criticisms of a President are unfailingly repudiated.

People knew what they signed up for.
   1269. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5558158)
There isn't a stitch of evidence of "success."
If "success" is defined as fomenting chaos and furthering the divisions in American culture, there's a whole tapestry of evidence.

We've been through this.
   1270. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5558165)
I can make this example better:

"I want you to do your homework."
"Okay, Mom. I'll do it."
... the day passes ....
... morning comes ...
Teacher: "Where's your homework?"
"Things got complicated, I'll get it done."
Teacher: "You can do it in detention."
... completes homework in detention ...
... afternoon passes ...
Mom: "Detention? WTF? You said you'd do the homework!"
"I did do it, didn't I?"
That is better, yes. It captures the element of him only doing it after getting in trouble for not doing it, and then trying to claim credit for doing it at that point.
   1271. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5558170)
Two articles that (sorry) have nothing to do with Ray (sorry, sorry):

George W. Bush’s unmistakable takedown of Trumpism — and Trump

For the past nine years, George W. Bush has largely stayed out of presidential politics; he declined to criticize his successor, Barack Obama, and he chose not to endorse but largely ignored President Trump. While Mitt Romney and others spoke out publicly against Trump, Bush stayed above the fray.

That changed in a big way Thursday.

Speaking at a George W. Bush Institute event in New York, Bush didn't use Trump's name, but his target became clearer as the speech progressed. Here's a sampling:

“Bigotry seems emboldened. Our politics seems more vulnerable to conspiracy theories and outright fabrication.”
“We’ve seen nationalism distorted into nativism.”
“We’ve seen our discourse degraded by casual cruelty. . . . Argument turns too easily into animosity.”
“It means that bigotry and white supremacy in any form is blasphemy against the American creed, and it means the very identity of our nation depends on passing along civic ideals.”
“Bullying and prejudice in our public life … provides permission for cruelty and bigotry.”
“The only way to pass along civic values is to live up to them.”

Any one of these quotes in isolation could be dismissed as highflying rhetoric aimed at the general coarsening of our political culture — or the rise of forms of nationalism and extremism that clearly exist outside the Oval Office.

But almost each of these quotes has some connection to Trump. “Conspiracy theories and fabrications?” Check and check. “Nationalism and nativism?” Check. A “degraded discourse?” Big check. “Bigotry and white supremacy?” Trump was criticized for not calling them out strongly enough in Charlottesville. “Bullying?” Huge check. Not “living up to civic values?” Check, definitely....


Ah, but here's the rub:

George W. Bush demonstrates the problem with trying to criticize Trump while winning over his voters

What’s happened in the Trump era, though, is that the old Mario Cuomo adage has been reversed. While politicians were once said to campaign in lofty poetry and govern in grinding prose, the leaders of Trump’s party seem to be torn between the desire to offer poetic descriptions of ideals and the need to throw elbows to appeal to an agitated base as Election Day approaches.

Earlier this week, Bush appeared at fundraising events for the candidacy of Republican Ed Gillespie in Virginia, entertaining attendees at one luncheon with “vintage George W. Bush,” in the words of one attendee. Gillespie (who once advised Bush) faces a tough contest against Democrat Ralph Northam, who leads in most polls, though often within the margin of error.

Why’s this relevant? Because Gillespie’s candidacy has been criticized for fomenting precisely the sorts of divides that Bush disparaged Thursday.

Gillespie’s campaign has run several ads that echo Trump’s rhetoric about the criminal threat posed by immigrants in the country illegally. Here’s one example [video is on the link]:

The ad’s connotations are clear. Northam supported sanctuary cities, which provide cover to criminal immigrants like MS-13, who’ve been linked to brutal murders in Virginia.

That summary skips over a lot of important caveats, including that Virginia doesn’t have sanctuary cities, that sanctuary cities don’t actually have more crime than other cities and that MS-13 is a domestic gang that includes both immigrants and native-born Americans. Trump’s focused on MS-13 because it’s a convenient way to link illegal immigration and crime, a line he drew explicitly during an event on Long Island this year.

What Gillespie’s ad hopes to do, explicitly, is foment fear about immigration to his political advantage. It isolates one vote from Northam on sanctuary cities (which The Washington Post analyzed) to tie him and immigrant populations to violent crime.

To put it another way, Northam is being judged by his worst examples. Gillespie’s ads clearly don’t seem to recall the dynamism that immigration has always brought to America.

In one sense, this is just politics. Bush’s father, George H.W. Bush, won election in 1988 after running one of the most notoriously racially divisive ads in U.S. political history. The elder Bush then went on in his inaugural address to describe the optimism of the “thousand points of light” that community organizations working around the country represented. In other words, there’s always been tension between what a campaign does to win and what the winning candidate does once in office.

But Bush’s speech Thursday wasn’t offered in a normal political moment. It was a deliberate condemnation in the very real shift in American politics that Trump both leveraged and fostered. It was a call for a higher sort of politics. Bush has largely stayed away from politics since leaving office. Trump has clearly inspired him to jump back in.

Gillespie’s ads, similarly, aren’t just normal political mudslinging. Gillespie barely won the Republican primary against Corey Stewart, an unabashed advocate of Trumpism who leveraged that position to great effect. That Gillespie won was certainly a relief to the Republican establishment in the state. But Gillespie’s embrace of Trump’s rhetoric in his efforts to unseat Northam is a sign of how that establishment is incorporating the sorts of divisiveness that Bush just condemned.

Few candidates represent only one idea. Bush endorses Gillespie because he is judging the candidate by his best intentions, recognizing that getting an establishment/more moderate Republican into power in Virginia may mean you have to break a few eggs, including using tactics that you find unpleasant. Maybe, as with George H.W. Bush and his “Willie Horton” ad, Gillespie and Bush would argue that he’s simply using Trumpism to win his race.

The difference between using Trumpism to win an election and dispersing and endorsing Trump’s arguments, though, is a subtle one. It also seems like something that the George W. Bush speaking Thursday fervently advocated against.


In simpler terms, the Republicans want to eat their cake and have it, too. They just don't like being held accountable for it.
   1272. Omineca Greg Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5558171)
If that is 2.3 million in 1930's dollars, then that's about 4.1 billion in 2017 dollars. Impressive.

I believe it is.
   1273. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5558172)
So David, I assume your legal analogy would hold then, as well - an attorney is instructed to file a brief, and only actually does it after the case has been adjudicated. By that time his client has lost.

In Ray's world, hey, he filed the brief, so there's no fathomable issue. On Planet Earth, I believe the lawyer has, ah, invited criticism. Like getting fired.
   1274. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:26 PM (#5558173)
Workers of firm involved with the discredited and Fake Dossier take the 5th. Who paid for it, Russia, the FBI or the Dems (or all)?

I'm not sure why PepTech is seemingly dismissive of this story. You have a Democratic opposition research firm refusing to divulge who paid for what looks to be a smear job "dossier" that deliberately weaves in a few credibility-enhancing facts with unsubstantiated but difficult to disprove derogatory information. That dossier was peddled all over town during the campaign, but couldn't even meet the publishing standards of 2016, until after the election when those standards apparently changed. Seems like we should know what the story is here, or did everyone lose interest in dark money and/or foreign interference if Trump isn't the alleged beneficiary?
   1275. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:30 PM (#5558176)
Shorter #1271, Bush 41 pivoted after Willie Horton. Modern Day Presidents don't pivot.

We've been through this. :)
   1276. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5558177)
When someone says "Marco!" you say derangement.


Playing Trump Derangement with the Trump Deranged?

Surprising.

What's not surprising?

How much Amanda and Keith saved by switching to GEICO.



   1277. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5558178)
I'm not sure why PepTech is seemingly dismissive of this story. You have a Democratic opposition research firm refusing to divulge who paid for what looks to be a smear job "dossier" that deliberately weaves in a few credibility-enhancing facts with unsubstantiated but difficult to disprove derogatory information. That dossier was peddled all over town during the campaign, but couldn't even meet the publishing standards of 2016, until after the election when those standards apparently changed. Seems like we should know what the story is here, or did everyone lose interest in dark money and/or foreign interference if Trump isn't the alleged beneficiary?


Yes, let's get to the bottom of exactly which Republicans originally commissioned the dossier before deciding it was better to join 'em than fight 'em.... that then came to light two months AFTER the election was over.

I don't compliment Clapper often, but he really is the true master of selective story telling.
   1278. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5558180)
Clapper, are you saying that Trump's tweet is a legitimate call to investigate the origins of the dossier in full, fully cooperate with any avenue that investigation may lead down, and accept any fallout? Do you think the FBI played a role in assembling this dossier?

Or would you agree with my take, which is that this is a transparent attempt to stir up controversy, distract from the previous Ridiculous Issue of the Day, and remind his base who the "real enemy" is?
   1279. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5558182)
You have a Democratic opposition research firm refusing to divulge who paid for what looks to be a smear job "dossier" that deliberately weaves in a few credibility-enhancing facts with unsubstantiated but difficult to disprove derogatory information. That dossier was peddled all over town during the campaign, but couldn't even meet the publishing standards of 2016, until after the election when those standards apparently changed. Seems like we should know what the story is here, or did everyone lose interest in dark money and/or foreign interference if Trump isn't the alleged beneficiary?
Clapper has obviously been taking obtuseness lessons from fellow-traveler Ray.

Clapper completely ignores the laughable implication that Russia would finance a dossier that damages...Russia. He also is lending support to the idea that the top law enforcement agency in the US financially supported a disinformation campaign against a POTUS nominee - despite the fact that the political leanings of the leaders of that agency are both well-known and decidedly in support of the party of that nominee.

EDIT: Clapper also wants us to believe that Russia and the "Democratic opposition research firm" conspired to create a dossier damaging to Trump when:

1. Russian leaders - both public and business - had close ties to Trump.
2. Russian leaders - both public and business - had serious issues with both the sitting Democratic administration and the Democratic nominee.
   1280. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:39 PM (#5558184)
Clapper completely ignores that the laughable implication that Russia would finance a dossier that damages...Russia. He also is lending support to the idea that the top law enforcement agency in the US financially supported a disinformation campaign against a POTUS nominee - despite the fact that the political leanings of the leaders of that agency are both well-known and decidedly in support of the party of that nominee.


Sounds like the Mother of All False Flag Operations...
   1281. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5558187)
Russia’s Pro-Trump Operation Keeps Expanding

ABC News published a story last night documenting numerous Americans (real names and specific people now) who were paid money (apparently not knowing its origins), recruited to attend or organize events or take other actions. One hip-hop artist in St. Louis was even paid to record a song for the campaign’s ersatz black activist organization “BlackMattersUS.”

Even some of the Twitter accounts which had already been found were considerably more prolific and influential than we had known. One Russia-created Twitter account for the Tennessee Republican Party had more than ten times the followers of the real Tennessee GOP Twitter account. The Tennessee party had apparently complained about it to Twitter, to no avail. A number of top Trump aides engaged with the ersatz account late in the 2016 campaign and President himself thanked an affiliated account on Twitter just last month!

What’s clear is that these small numbers of accounts on Facebook and Twitter were only a very small part of the larger story. Frankly, I suspect they are only a very small part of the story on those platforms themselves. The idea that these platforms can or even have a strong interest in identifying all the accounts tied to this campaign is naive. That is especially so since the Russian-created accounts and actors had a penumbra of Americans who were, knowingly or not, amplifying and disseminating the campaign. At a minimum, this went far beyond the hacking and Wikileaks-disseminated emails. It went far beyond a small number of troll accounts and bots on the major social networks. It involved a significant number of fake activist organizations, hiring and recruiting Americans, paying them for various services. It is also clearly still underway.
   1282. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5558189)
Yes, let's get to the bottom of exactly which Republicans originally commissioned the dossier before deciding it was better to join 'em than fight 'em.... that then came to light two months AFTER the election was over.

I don't compliment Clapper often, but he really is the true master of selective story telling.

I'm glad there is bi-partisan support for getting to the bottom of the phony dossier story, but in fairness to zonk I should probably advise him that the claim that the dossier was commissioned by anti-Trump Republicans hasn't held up very well and is likely to be shown to be a complete fabrication. Now, I think that makes it even more imperative to get to the bottom of this shady business, but zonk, being the flexible fellow that he is, may want to consider his options carefully.
   1283. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5558191)
Shorter #1271, Bush 41 pivoted after Willie Horton. Modern Day Presidents don't pivot.

We've been through this. :)


Well, this Modern Day President has an entire army whose sole purpose in life seems to be to do his pivoting for him.** He's got several volunteer soldiers right here.

** "He was just joking"; "He's just playing you"; "He didn't mean it"; "What about Hillary's emails?"; etc., etc.
   1284. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5558193)
He's got several volunteer soldiers right here.


The pro-Trump quotient on here is proof of the validity of Trump's "5th Avenue" comment.
   1285. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5558194)
I'm glad there is bi-partisan support for getting to the bottom of the phony dossier story, but in fairness to zonk I should probably advise him that the claim that the dossier was commissioned by anti-Trump Republicans hasn't held up very well and is likely to be shown to be a complete fabrication. Now, I think that makes it even more imperative to get to the bottom of this shady business, but zonk, being the flexible fellow that he is, may want to consider his options carefully.


Uh-huh.

Just out of curiosity, is there a statute of limitations on "phony dossier stories" and dubious oppo "research" that demands we get to the bottom who funded what and any other guidance on what constitutes the necessity of how any complete fabrications came to light?

Asking for Kenyan, Arkansan, Massachusettsan friends...
   1286. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5558196)
Anyway, this conversation underlines something that's pretty clear to me. What the Trumpophiles see as Trump Derangement Syndrome is actually Trumpophile Derangement Syndrome. If Ray or SBB says something as simple as, "Yeah, Trump doesn't look good here, but at least he paid eventually" then this conversation goes nowhere.


"Doesn't look good" for handing a guy $25,000 that he didn't need to hand him doesn't compute.
   1287. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5558197)
Gotta give it to Ray: he sticks to his guns.
   1288. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5558199)
He's got several volunteer soldiers right here.

The pro-Trump quotient on here is proof of the validity of Trump's "5th Avenue" comment.


You might even call them Trump's 5th Avenue 5th Column.
   1289. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5558202)
You might even call them Trump's 5th Avenue 5th Column.


Oh... That's good...
   1290. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5558203)
A somewhat interesting article. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it has the advantage of being about something actually important (not that the Troll brigade will notice or care).

Made in America


Globalization’s Impact on Income Distribution

Global income distribution has changed dramatically in recent decades, a change largely attributable to globalization. The world’s wealthiest have done very well, as research by City University of New York Professor Branko Milanovic shows that more than half of all income growth since 1988 has gone to the world’s richest 5 percent, with most of that growth concentrated among the global 1 percent. Meanwhile, incomes have also grown for many on the bottom half of the global income distribution, but have stagnated for those in about the 70-85th percentiles globally—in other words, working and middle class people in developed countries.

Income growth among the global poor, meanwhile, has been wildly uneven. Of the nearly one billion people who escaped extreme poverty since 1981, three-quarters were Chinese. Chinese economic growth has indeed been a miracle—middle earners in China saw their incomes nearly triple between 1988 and 2008. Yet, these gains have not been replicated in many other developing countries. NAFTA member Mexico, for instance, has seen an increase in poverty and almost no real wage growth over the last two decades.

Wage stagnation has impacted American workers more dramatically than those in most other wealthy countries. Since 2000, the United States has lost roughly five million manufacturing jobs, largely due to trade. Because of manufacturing’s high wages, job losses in manufacturing will contribute to wage stagnation absent increases in service sector pay that have not come to pass. Labor’s share of U.S. income has declined dramatically over the past quarter-century, following decades of stability. According to the McKinsey Global Institute, 81 percent of households in the United States saw their market wages decline between 2005 and 2014, compared with roughly two-thirds of households in advanced countries overall. Trade policy is one of several forces that have helped drive inequality by weakening worker power relative to capital.
   1291. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5558204)
Gotta give it to Ray: he sticks to his guns.

Nice picture of Ray that ran in today's papers------Come 'n' get me, copper!
   1292. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5558207)
More policy links in a transparent effort to improve the quality of our posts if not the content of our character.

4 signs that Trump’s furious efforts to save coal are futile

3) Wind is about to surpass coal in Texas, the freest of free energy markets

If recently announced coal retirements go through and the pace of wind energy construction continues at the expected rate, wind energy capacity could surpass coal capacity in Texas as early as next year.

This is of special significance because Texas is one of America’s biggest self-contained energy markets and also probably the closest thing the country has to a “free market” in electricity. Power is procured entirely through competitive bidding. Texas doesn’t even have capacity markets, which pay power plants to stay open in case of emergency. If capacity gets tight in Texas, the price of power rises — it’s a pure market signal.
   1293. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5558213)
Gotta give it to Ray: he sticks to his guns.


Well, we've gone around and around on this enough, so time to move on.

Suffice to say that no amount of TDS can erase the fact that Trump gifted a grieving military father $25,000.

Only disproving that fact will erase that fact. Which is not "nuance."
   1294. BDC Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5558219)
Maybe it's time for my every-few-months question for Sugar Bear and other loyalists: what is good about Trump so far?

Possibilities:

1) A bang-up job of judicial nominations. (I'm actually not being all that snarky. It's a duty and Presidents have to see that it's executed.)

2) Repealing Presidential overreach on DACA and Obamacare CSR payments. I'm actually kind of neutral here. I suspect that SCOTUS, if they'd ever gotten the CSR issue, would have ruled narrowly and somewhat politically in favor of the Obama interpretation (as in King v. Burwell). But it does not hurt to have Congress decide to appropriate money or not for the CSR purposes. The same with DACA, which was more obviously an overreach. Let Congress decide. In either event, it's kind of a neutral, though conservative, accomplishment all told. Doesn't achieve anything, but makes clear that the Executive shouldn't be achieving certain things.

3) ####y stuff that hurts a few people and other beings, trolls the left, and makes the base happy (repealing some National Monument designations, if that goes through; attacking transgender servicepeople; allowing more pollution).

4) Upending the Iran-agreement card table

5) Being white

6) Saying belligerent things in the voice of your drunken uncle YEAH AMERICA!!!

7) Nazis are fine people

Still looking for positive accomplishments, big-picture conservative/neoliberal reforms such as those that characterized the Carter-through-W years. In fact, still looking for a big-picture direction overall.

No credit given for stock market going up. You can lay a straightedge across the Dow Jones Average since the year 1938 and it basically just climbs and climbs, with the occasional recession (even one as bad as 2008) just slowing the march for a little while. But then, Sugar Bear is the only person who thinks we should grade Presidents on the DJIA scale (which must mean that we've had a hell of a run of super-great Presidents in the last 80 years :)
   1295. Lassus Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5558221)
Ray can call me the insane one, I guess I'm unique in my view that the CoC going with "I'm very sorry your son died under my command. Twenty-five grand be good for that?" is kinda gross.
   1296. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5558222)
Ray, any comment on the legal brief analogy?
An attorney is instructed to file a brief, and only actually does it after the case has been adjudicated. By that time his client has lost.
Would that be an issue in your practice? He did file the brief, after all.
   1297. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5558223)
   1298. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5558224)
1296

You're not gonna change Ray's on this or get any concession from him, PepTech.

Remember: Ray sticks to his guns.
   1299. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5558226)
Maybe it's time for my every-few-months question for Sugar Bear and other loyalists: what is good about Trump so far?


His stewardship of the economy and at least so far not really making a lot of effort to expand executive power. Nothing wrong with his actions on Iran either.

Oh, and from the left, I like his at least apparent outlining of the idea that the health insurance companies shouldn't be getting government subsidies.

But my overall opinion remains the same. His election is a clear symptom of the Decline and the opposition's reaction to him is a clear symptom of the Decline. We're very much in Decline. With that as the establishing principle, I'm not sure the details matter all that much.
   1300. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5558227)
Ray, any comment on the legal brief analogy?

An attorney is instructed to file a brief, and only actually does it after the case has been adjudicated. By that time his client has lost.

Would that be an issue in your practice? He did file the brief, after all.


It's an absurd analogy, which is why an analogy departing from the actual facts had to be made. In the brief analogy there's a requirement and a deadline. On these facts there is no requirement and no deadline.

In a sea of valid things to bash Trump over, this is really a ridiculous effort. And, as I said, quite revealing.
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