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Monday, October 16, 2017

OTP 16 October 2017: Sorry, Yankee fans: Trump’s claim that he can ensure victory simply isn’t true

As is sometimes the case with Trump’s tweet’s, his claims don’t hold up. We identified 14 games that Trump has attended since 1988, including two preseason games and the game above. Of those 14 games, the Yankees won eight and lost six — 57 percent of the time during seasons when the Yankees won 60 percent of their games overall.

In other words — Trump might be a jinx.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2017 at 07:49 AM | 1967 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, playoffs, politics, yankees

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   1401. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2017 at 06:49 PM (#5558391)
David, I do see what Ray is getting at, which is that your "never" is now incorrect. Ray is of the opinion that since he has done it now, it doesn't matter that he hadn't up until that point, and pedantically, Trump is no longer a welcher on this particular issue, even though he proven to be a liar, a welcher, and a defrauder on other issues, which Ray has agreed with.

Ray is being an ass, though, by continuing to insist the latest round of criticism is *because* Trump cut the check, and being all SJW over that lie. But Ray gotta Ray.
   1402. Traderdave Posted: October 19, 2017 at 06:51 PM (#5558392)
1378:

Zonk, you're a class act.

And I feel fortunate that my parents have gone to extraordinary lengths to make their disposition as painless and clear as possible. I'm one of 9 kids and given the surprising diversity of opinions, mindsets, and liquidity situations of the group, there is great potential for some of the ugliness you describe.

But my folks have moved into assisted explicitly living to avoid having to lean on their children for care. My dad has been meticulous about keeping wills, living trusts, POA, etc up to date. He sends each kid a copy whenever a change or update occurs, which is not frequent. At the first of this year, he realized he hadn't sent any updates for some time so he sent us all fresh copies, just to be sure. In addition to the legal documents, he's included such seemingly minor things as local furniture dealers to call to dispose of their stuff.

I certainly won't be pleased when they pass, but I know I'll be relieved that things will go so smoothly.



   1403. Greg K Posted: October 19, 2017 at 06:55 PM (#5558395)
It's not quite Trial by Combat, but perhaps YR will be happy to learn that Trial by Ordeal delivers reliable justice.
   1404. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 19, 2017 at 06:56 PM (#5558396)
   1405. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:01 PM (#5558397)
In his defense, Ray has often called Trump a liar. Along with every other politician.

Trump didn't lie *specifically* about this, perhaps only because he didn't really have a chance. I don't think he's even been asked publicly about this particular incident, it's all been spokespeople.


But that's the thing -

You simply cannot compare "every other politician" and Trump...

In political speak - the sheer weight and variance of 330 million people means that it is objectively impossible to EVER make any statement on ANY policy that will meet Ray's standard of truth. There is no policy that anyone can advocate for that will be 100% true for everyone - doesn't matter WHICH side of the aisle you're on (or even if you claim to be on no side of any aisle).

If you use that absolute measuring stick - every politician since the dawn of time has lied every time s/he has said anything about laws, policy, or governance. I don't care what the policy is or how awesome (regardless of POV) it ends up being - inevitably, the trumpeted upside is NOT going to be universally applicable. It is wholly and completely unrealistic to expect this to be the case.

I feel perfectly reasonable in saying that Trump manages to rank with the worst of the lot, but would simply add that he also has this pathological need to lie about anything and everything else.

As such, it's just completely bonkers to me that anyone would try to make the case that "this time, he's not lying".

I'm sure pathological liars something do tell the truth about some things. But the point of the pathological liar is that they've got so little credibility and have such a long and consistent resume of lying, that it's just stupid to attempt to pick and choose those rare instances.

Hence, while I've hardly got google alerts set up to notify me when the 25K check clears -- I'm perfectly willing to say that it hasn't been proven he's telling the truth just because the WH now says that he sent the check.

If a pathological liar wants to claim he's telling the truth this time -- neither he nor people employed by him (especially when they've also managed to soil themselves many times over by repeating the lies) have any credibility with me. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not - but if you want me to pronounce it "true", then it's gonna take someone else to prove to me it's true.
   1406. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:05 PM (#5558398)
Except there is no evidence that he wrote the cheque until the whole story came out.


Ahem. I'll repeat.

There's really no more evidence that he wrote check now.... unless you want to say that people who work for him who also have a history of repeating his lies is a kind of evidence.

I'm not saying he's still lying... I'm saying I don't trust that he and his lackeys are NOT lying, still. They may now be telling the truth, but only someone else can verify it.
   1407. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:12 PM (#5558400)
I certainly won't be pleased when they pass, but I know I'll be relieved that things will go so smoothly.
My mom doesn't have any money (Medicaid will soon be paying for her assisted living; her kids will have to pay for her funeral, unless she prepaid and didn't tell us), so except for a power recliner, a bed, and a sleeper sofa there isn't anything to argue over (the TV she uses is mine ;) )
   1408. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:23 PM (#5558402)
Ahh DMN bemoaning the Ray's lawyerly approach. Egggggselent!
   1409. Morty Causa Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:37 PM (#5558405)
For the first time since 1983, the NCAA Women's Basketball Champ hasn't been invited to the White House.

I guess that's bad, and I sure don't want to run interference for Trump, but I don't think Presidents should be held obligated to do things like this. Hell, I wish he (well not him) would invite the Nobel Prize winners instead (should the President be strapped for time), or the Tony, Oscar, and Emmy winners. Along with the Pulitzer and National Book Award winners. Or something like that. We sacralize sports to an obscene degree enough as it is.
   1410. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:41 PM (#5558408)
We sacralize sports to an obscene degree enough as it is.
Says the guy with 19,000 comments on a baseball board.
   1411. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:42 PM (#5558409)
David, I do see what Ray is getting at, which is that your "never" is now incorrect. Ray is of the opinion that since he has done it now, it doesn't matter that he hadn't up until that point, and pedantically, Trump is no longer a welcher on this particular issue, even though he proven to be a liar, a welcher, and a defrauder on other issues, which Ray has agreed with.

Ray is being an ass, though, by continuing to insist the latest round of criticism is *because* Trump cut the check, and being all SJW over that lie. But Ray gotta Ray.


Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. I hold my children to a higher standard than Ray holds the president of the US, and I imagine most other parents do as well. To borrow a phrase Ray, it's not a good look.
   1412. Morty Causa Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:47 PM (#5558412)
Says the guy with 19,000 comments on a baseball board.

Are you tracking my comments on the internet (squinting)? Do you know how many comments total I've made on other subjects on other boards?
   1413. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:49 PM (#5558414)
Are you tracking my comments on the internet (squinting)?
Yep. I have a yuuuge chalkboard in my basement with all of you guys listed.

You won't believe who's #10!
   1414. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:50 PM (#5558415)
Zonk, you're a class act.


Don't forget handsome :-).

Though - I think I owe a lot of it to my dad. He's jokingly, but not jokingly - if you know what I mean - told my brother and I that he intends to whittle his own estate down to paying for the funeral and that's it. The reality is that as he's gotten older, it's morphed into the fact that there will be an estate to deal with, but he's also been very big on having those quite uncomfortable discussions that we all need to discuss any items of sentimental value now.


And I feel fortunate that my parents have gone to extraordinary lengths to make their disposition as painless and clear as possible. I'm one of 9 kids and given the surprising diversity of opinions, mindsets, and liquidity situations of the group, there is great potential for some of the ugliness you describe.

But my folks have moved into assisted explicitly living to avoid having to lean on their children for care. My dad has been meticulous about keeping wills, living trusts, POA, etc up to date. He sends each kid a copy whenever a change or update occurs, which is not frequent. At the first of this year, he realized he hadn't sent any updates for some time so he sent us all fresh copies, just to be sure. In addition to the legal documents, he's included such seemingly minor things as local furniture dealers to call to dispose of their stuff.

I certainly won't be pleased when they pass, but I know I'll be relieved that things will go so smoothly.


FWIW, the one nickel's worth of free experience advice from my own messy experience is that - especially if the estate is large enough - it's not a bad idea to consider a 3rd party executor,just naming a professional firm to handle it all. And do not name co-executors. One of my biggest mistakes being 'consulted' -- when the two aunts were fighting over the time to deal with all of the necessities - was mentioning that an executor is entitled to a percent of the estate. My intention was just to defuse a fight - but then THAT turned into another fight. I don't put much weight into them - we've all since (more or less) let bygones be bygones, but it reached the point where I was at least mildly concerned over threats that Iwas going to be sued for "taking sides".

The biggest problem is that the majority of the estate wasn't liquid - it was in assets that none of the beneficiaries were interested in hanging onto (i.e., the farmland). The fights over how to go about the sale were monumental - including not just financial aspects. Like I said - family farm... which meant that other local farmers who, in a small town, were friends of the family were interested. The first - eventually aborted - bidding round ended up with a handshake deal with another family that all involved knew... until one of the three beneficiaries insisted that the price was too low and a much more extensive and broad-reaching advertisement and bidding process be employed. This then devolved in caustic arguments over "family farms" vs "agri-business" - that was just all a cover for underlying psychological coping problems/issues, and on and on it went.

...and that's without getting into the ticky-tacky stuff like who got Grandpa's favorite stetson hat that had been in a closet for 10 years or who got which of the 10 rosaries grandma got blessed by the pope.

Far from being a good thing that we were (and still are, albeit with some scars now) a very close extended family -- I think that actually made it worse.

Following that experience, I convinced my dad to just contract a professional executor firm in his will. As much as I - today, think myself, my brother, and stepmon wouldn't devolve into the same kind of #### show - I am enormously relieved that when the sad day comes, it's going to be someone who just has a legal and fiduciary duty to follow the letter of the will and use his own expertise to deal with any non-liquid assets. A few points off the top is a small price to pay for that.
   1415. SteveF Posted: October 19, 2017 at 07:50 PM (#5558416)
For the first time since 1983, the NCAA Women's Basketball Champ hasn't been invited to the White House.

I don't really think this is a bad thing on its own. The reason presidents invite sports teams to the White House is entirely self-serving. If a president doesn't think they can get a positive news cycle out of the invitation, there's no reason for them to extend the invite. It hardly makes sense to criticize a President for failing to do something self-serving.

That said, if you can't get a positive news cycle out of a sports team's visit to the White House...
   1416. Lassus Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:09 PM (#5558421)
No one here called Trump a liar.

Trump is a bigger ####### liar than anyone who has ever commented in OTP.
   1417. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:11 PM (#5558423)
I certainly won't be pleased when they pass, but I know I'll be relieved that things will go so smoothly.

when my father died in 2010 (15 years after my mother), his will was maybe 2 pages.
basically just "take total, and divide by 5" for his 5 children.

all of us were good with that. we then took turns visiting his home, taking only the items that felt more important to us than anyone else.

when we visit each other, we get to see refrigerator magnets and other such items scattered around the houses. as long as one of us has them, no reason to be territorial. I'm the youngest, so much of the core stuff properly went to the oldest.

"mentioning that an executor is entitled to a percent of the estate."

the sister who lived closest to my father was the executor. none of us know or care how much she earned for that. feeling is that she would take what she thought proper and/or needed. works for me.

I've mentioned before that I was into my 30s before I found out that shows like "Roseanne" weren't a parody of American life. I guess part of it is that too much money - or too little money - each tends to be corrosive.
   1418. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:11 PM (#5558424)
Woah, let's not go nuts here.
   1419. madvillain Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:17 PM (#5558432)
On the subject, my uncle started a very large trucking company back in the 70s. He has like 200 employees now and does business in I believe over 70 countries. You can see his logo on the highway repeatedly if you start looking for it when you're driving, especially around the Chicago area. He's the most humble rich person you'll ever meet. He's also incredibly modest. He lives in like a 3000 sq foot condo with his wife, the same one he's been in since like the late 90s. Occasionally at like a family reunion he'll do something "big" like pay for some crazy catering and open bar or hire a band, that's about the extent of his wealth flashing. They don't have any kids. My mom has repeatedly told me they are leaving everything in their estate to the grand kids, and there are 8 of us. I'm not expecting a life changing windwall but I am expecting something pretty substantial. I think about it maybe once or twice a year. Curious more than anything.
   1420. BDC Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:25 PM (#5558444)
Was there ever much coal used in Texas

Late answering Clapper in #1304 above: yes, Texas has been the largest US producer of lignite coal, most of which is used locally in power plants. It's a gigantic state, so its overall production (ninth among the states in 2015) is not large compared to its area or population. But coal is a substantial industry here. Seeing coal overtaken by wind power in Texas is a milestone, or watershed, or windshed, or tipping point, or something at least.
   1421. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:32 PM (#5558460)
For the first time since 1983, the NCAA Women's Basketball Champ hasn't been invited to the White House.

I don't really think this is a bad thing on its own. The reason presidents invite sports teams to the White House is entirely self-serving. If a president doesn't think they can get a positive news cycle out of the invitation, there's no reason for them to extend the invite. It hardly makes sense to criticize a President for failing to do something self-serving.

If a president is actually a sports fan,** then I think it's more along the lines of "Hey, I'm president, and yay, I can do this!" I don't think they look upon it as either a chore, or anything that's particularly politically beneficial. But when you've got a president like Trump, who's likely as ignorant about current sporting events as he is about the situation on the ground in Afghanistan, and who's openly loathed by a sizable number of prominent athletes, I can see why he'd just figure "What's the point?"

** Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton (maybe college basketball only), Bush II, and Obama were all legitimate sports fans to varying degrees.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one here called Trump a liar.

Trump is a bigger ####### liar than anyone who has ever commented in OTP.

If lying were a Coney Island hot dog eating competition, they'd have to slaughter every hog in Iowa in order to satiate Trump's appetite.

It's likely impossible to quantify with any precision, but I'd wager Trump's already told more public whoppers in his first 9 months than any previous president told during his entire term (or terms) in office. And I don't think it'd even be particularly close.
   1422. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:38 PM (#5558473)
*If you DON'T ASSUME the above statement, and you think he did send a cheque, your only point of contention is that it has wrote the cheque and it has taken more the four months for it to arrive.

Which the Republicans will naturally seize upon as an excuse to dismantle the USPS.

   1423. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:43 PM (#5558476)
No idea. What I do know is that he sent the check. Which is rather bizarre behavior from someone who never intended to send a check.


This sounds a little bit like the "ethics" that state it's not cheating on your wife if she doesn't know about it.

OBLIGATORY
   1424. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 08:49 PM (#5558488)
Kelly also explained that he was on the conversation with the family of the dead soldier and gave a plausible explanation of what Trump meant. But he went further and denounced politicization of gold star families and attacked the congresswoman in a misleading way and questioned why she was "listening in" to the conversation with Trump (she actually is a family friend of the widow, and the family agreed with her characterization). He then blasted her as an "empty barrel making the most noise." You cannot keep gold star families "sacred" while providing cover for Trump and engaging in his disputes.

Kelly also alluded to the Khans in a way that he suggested he was on Trump's side in that disgusting episode (he said he thought Gold Star families were sacred until the conventions).

edited to add: most bizarrely and unfortunately he would only take questions from people who knew gold star families.


And this is supposedly one of the "adults in the room" who'll speak truth to power. Who's next on that list? Conway? Huckabee? Pruitt?
   1425. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 09:07 PM (#5558525)
The big lie was actually the similar but not identical, "If you like your health plan you can keep your health plan."

Long before Obamacare came around, insurance companies routinely changed the terms and costs of health care plans every year, essentially telling you to take it or leave it. Was that "letting you keep your health plan"?

And long before Obamacare was made into law, many companies either withdrew or shrunk their employees' health care coverage. Was that "letting you keep your health plan"?
Yes, indeed, it was. Andy apparently can't tell the difference between a business deciding not to sell a particular product and the government outlawing that product.

Many of those appropriately labeled "buffalo" policies** were indeed restricted under the ACA, but given their almost total lack of real coverage, that was more of a feature than a bug.

** So named because they covered you only when you got trampled by a herd of buffalo
I've never heard that phrase, and I read a lot about... well, everything except movies nobody cares about from the 1940s. A quick google shows this term used roughly once, ever. But since it was in the Washington Post a few weeks ago, Andy blindly repeats it as though it isn't just something that was made up. And what it actually seems to refer to is real insurance policies that work the way insurance is supposed to work: covering catastrophic care only. But regardless, what Obama said was "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan," not "If Democratic politicians and bureaucrats like your plan, you can keep your plan."
   1426. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: October 19, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5558587)
Trump is a bigger ####### liar than anyone who has ever commented in OTP.

Good Face has posted to OTP.

And what it actually seems to refer to is real insurance policies that work the way insurance is supposed to work: covering catastrophic care only.

Which misses the point. An insurance scheme is not some sort of Platonic ideal for risk management. Insurance is a dumb way to finance health care because most people will experience huge financial losses from deterioration in their physical or mental health. As a consequence, unlike for life insurance, there is little benefit from risk aggregation.
   1427. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 19, 2017 at 10:26 PM (#5558653)
Quentin Tarantino has broken his quasi-silence on Harvey Weinstein:
“I knew enough to do more than I did. There was more to it than just the normal rumors, the normal gossip. It wasn’t secondhand. I knew he did a couple of these things. I wish I had taken responsibility for what I heard. If I had done the work I should have done then, I would have had to not work with him.”

...He had heard about Mr. Weinstein’s behavior long before those articles. His own former girlfriend, Mira Sorvino, told him about unwelcome advances and unwanted touching by Mr. Weinstein. Another actress told him a similarly upsetting story years later. He also knew that the actress Rose McGowan had reached a settlement with the producer. But Mr. Tarantino said he had failed to consider whether the women he knew were part of a larger pattern of abuse. ...“What I did was marginalize the incidents,” he recalled, saying he wrote them off as mild misbehavior. “Anything I say now will sound like a crappy excuse.”

When Mr. Tarantino read the articles about Mr. Weinstein, he was horrified by the scope and severity of the alleged abuse, especially the rape accusations, he said. But some of the accounts were deeply familiar to him. “Everyone who was close to Harvey had heard of at least one of those incidents” chronicled in the first few articles, he said. “It was impossible they didn’t.”

...[Sorvino] told him that...Mr. Weinstein had massaged her without asking, chased her around a hotel room and even showed up at her apartment in the middle of the night, a story she recently shared with The New Yorker. “I was shocked and appalled” back then, Mr. Tarantino said. “I couldn’t believe he would do that so openly. I was like: ‘Really? Really?’ But the thing I thought then, at the time, was that...Harvey was hung up on her in this Svengali kind of way,” Mr. Tarantino said. “Because he was infatuated with her, he horribly crossed the line.” The problem was resolved, he said he felt at the time, because he and Ms. Sorvino were dating. “I’m with her, he knows that, he won’t mess with her, he knows that she’s my girlfriend,” Mr. Tarantino said, describing his attitude back then.

Over the years, he learned of other accounts. Another actress friend told him a troubling story of unwanted advances by Mr. Weinstein in a hotel room. Mr. Tarantino confronted Mr. Weinstein, who offered the woman what the director described as a weak apology. (She confirmed the account to The Times but declined to be identified.)

...Tarantino said he regretted not taking the women’s stories seriously enough. “I chalked it up to a ’50s-’60s era image of a boss chasing a secretary around the desk. As if that’s O.K. That’s the egg on my face right now... I’m calling on the other guys who knew more to not be scared. Don’t just give out statements. Acknowledge that there was something rotten in Denmark. Vow to do better by our sisters. What was previously accepted is now untenable to anyone of a certain consciousness.”

Also, a group of as-yet anonymous Weinstein Company staffers have released a letter in which they request that the company release them from their non-disclosure agreements.
   1428. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 10:48 PM (#5558664)
Washington (CNN)The administration's top immigration enforcement official on Tuesday said his agency will vastly step up crackdowns on employers who hire undocumented immigrants -- a new front in President Donald Trump's hardline immigration agenda.

Acting Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Director Tom Homan spoke at the conservative Heritage Foundation and was asked whether his agency would do more to target not just undocumented workers, but their places of work.

Homan said he has instructed Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), the investigative unit of ICE, to potentially quintuple worksite enforcement actions next year.

He said he recently asked HSI to audit how much of their time is spent on work site enforcement, and said he has ordered that to increase "by four to five times."

"We've already increased the number of inspections in work site operations, you will see that significantly increase this next fiscal year," Homan promised, saying the goal is to remove the "magnet" drawing people to enter the US illegally.

And he said his agency would approach the task in a way that's "a little different" than in the past, by going just as aggressively after employees.

"Not only are we going to prosecute the employers that hire illegal workers, we're going to detain and remove the illegal alien workers," Homan said.

"When we find you at a work site, we're no longer going to turn our heads," Homan elaborated after the event. "We'll go after the employer who knowingly hires an illegal alien ... but we're always going to arrest a person who is here illegally. That is our job."


CNN

Seems like a good start to me ...
   1429. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:02 PM (#5558672)
Long before Obamacare came around, insurance companies routinely changed the terms and costs of health care plans every year, essentially telling you to take it or leave it. Was that "letting you keep your health plan"?

And long before Obamacare was made into law, many companies either withdrew or shrunk their employees' health care coverage. Was that "letting you keep your health plan"?


Yes, indeed, it was. Andy apparently can't tell the difference between a business deciding not to sell a particular product and the government outlawing that product.


As if there's any difference to the consumer when that policy is taken away.

Many of those appropriately labeled "buffalo" policies** were indeed restricted under the ACA, but given their almost total lack of real coverage, that was more of a feature than a bug.

** So named because they covered you only when you got trampled by a herd of buffalo


I've never heard that phrase, and I read a lot about... well, everything except movies nobody cares about from the 1940s. A quick google shows this term used roughly once, ever. But since it was in the Washington Post a few weeks ago, Andy blindly repeats it as though it isn't just something that was made up.


Feel free to ask Catherine Rampell, an award-winning journalist who's an alumna of your alma mater, if she just "made up" that term. Here, you can read the entire article where she used it, and contact her at crampell@washpost.com.

And what it actually seems to refer to is real insurance policies that work the way insurance is supposed to work: covering catastrophic care only.

Policies that cover only catastrophic care have a way of transforming non-catastrophic illnesses into catastrophic results. Great for the insurance companies that sell them, not so great for their policy holders when they find themselves left high and dry after reading the fine print and discover the true nature of those bogus policies.







   1430. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:17 PM (#5558703)
As if there's any difference to the consumer when that policy is taken away.
There is indeed.


Feel free to ask Catherine Rampell, an award-winning journalist who's an alumna of your alma mater, if she just "made up" that term. Here, you can read the entire article where she used it, and contact her at crampell@washpost.com.
Why do I need to do that, when I can google and see for myself?

The bigger question is: given that I was the one who noted that you pulled this made up claim from the Washington Post, why did you think you were being informative by saying that it was in the Washington Post?

Policies that cover only catastrophic care have a way of transforming non-catastrophic illnesses into catastrophic results.
This is gibberish. Health insurance doesn’t do anything to illnesses.
   1431. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:35 PM (#5558717)
Policies that cover only catastrophic care have a way of transforming non-catastrophic illnesses into catastrophic results.

That's not true. There's no reason health insurance has to have such a large component of prepayment for routine health services. At one time people paid out-of-pocket for routine stuff, and used insurance to mostly cover unexpected expenses, hence the name, Major Medical. Shifting the routine stuff to insurance has driven up the cost dramatically, as folks don't have the same price resistance when "insurance is paying". And, if people were given a free choice, few would opt for plans that cover sex change surgery, and other low-demand items. The idea that consumers are too stupid to buy health insurance without severe government restrictions is a Big Government fantasy by those who want to control others options.
   1432. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:41 PM (#5558720)
And long before Obamacare was made into law, many companies either withdrew or shrunk their employees' health care coverage. Was that "letting you keep your health plan"?

Yes, indeed, it was. Andy apparently can't tell the difference between a business deciding not to sell a particular product and the government outlawing that product.

As if there's any difference to the consumer when that policy is taken away.


Lofl.
   1433. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: October 19, 2017 at 11:56 PM (#5558721)
Shifting the routine stuff to insurance has driven up the cost dramatically, as folks don't have the same price resistance when "insurance is paying".

You just went against the whole concept of HMOs. Routine stuff prevents catastrophic illness, which reduces costs.

That doesn't even get to the fact that people don't enjoy going to the doctor so they can get poked and prodded. In a wealthy country like the US, that's a much more powerful resistance than simple economics.
   1434. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:01 AM (#5558723)
You just went against the whole concept of HMOs. Routine stuff prevents catastrophic illness, which reduces costs

Not at all. Folks don't have to skip the routine stuff unless it's covered by higher priced health insurance.
   1435. Howie Menckel Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:04 AM (#5558724)
“Everyone who was close to Harvey had heard of at least one of those incidents” chronicled in the first few articles, he said. “It was impossible they didn’t.”

except Meryl Streep.

I appreciate Tarantino's belated regrets.
   1436. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:10 AM (#5558725)
Not at all. Folks don't have to skip the routine stuff unless it's covered by higher priced health insurance.

Your sentence lacks coherence, but regardless, it's not matter of "have to." The insurance industry wants people to get the routine stuff so it doesn't become the expensive stuff. Again, that's the whole concept behind HMOs and their variants.
   1437. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM (#5558726)
Well, this is wonderful. Maddow and zonk will be making Benghazi comparisons for the next three years.
   1438. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:35 AM (#5558732)
Howie M, #1435:
“Everyone who was close to Harvey had heard of at least one of those incidents” chronicled in the first few articles, he said. “It was impossible they didn’t.”

except Meryl Streep.



You sure about that Streep sarcasm? From the Weinstein staff statement posted in #1427:
We all knew that we were working for a man with an infamous temper. We did not know we were working for a serial sexual predator. We knew that our boss could be manipulative. We did not know that he used his power to systematically assault and silence women. We had an idea that he was a womanizer who had extra-marital affairs. We did not know he was a violent aggressor and alleged rapist.

But to say we are shocked and surprised only makes us part of the problem.

...We now know that behind closed doors, these were the same traits that made him a monster. He created a toxic ecosystem where his abuse could flourish unchecked for decades.

...We have nothing to hide, and are as angry and baffled as you are at how Harvey’s behavior could continue for so long.

...While we can only speak for the people represented in this statement, none of us ever knowingly acted as a so-called "honeypot." That is disgusting and renders us all victims of Harvey's disgraceful behavior.

...Non-disclosure agreements only perpetuate this culture of silence. The "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" mentality undermines those who might've spoken out. We treat these abusive people and places as rites of passage, instead of with the disgust they deserve.
   1439. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:47 AM (#5558737)
Grandstanders are grandstanders.

Frederica Wilson Tweet:

I still stand by my account of the call b/t @realDonaldTrump and Myesha Johnson. That is her name, Mr. Trump. Not "the woman" or "the wife."


The only problem? That's not her name. Myeshia is.

But I do agree with Wilson: People who don't know the widow's name are perhaps not serious people.

Wilson has since changed the tweet.
   1440. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 12:56 AM (#5558740)
Because everything is always Asshole Thunderdome, and there can only be one?
   1441. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:12 AM (#5558742)
Well, this is wonderful. Maddow and zonk will be making Benghazi comparisons for the next three years.


How the #### does the FBI have jurisdiction over spec forces dying in Niger???
   1442. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:23 AM (#5558744)
From the Weinstein staff statement posted in #1427

Not a lot of sympathy for folks who willing took Weinstein's money, are now worried that ol' Harv's company is going broke, and concerned that their resume makes them toxic. Everybody knew, but nobody enabled & assisted, if not aided & abetted?
   1443. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:27 AM (#5558745)
If you like your ambiguity, you can't keep it: The IRS has announced it will be cracking down starting next year, refusing to process all tax forms that do not include personal disclosures about health coverage status. The move is expected to bolster compliance with the law.
   1444. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:36 AM (#5558746)
How the #### does the FBI have jurisdiction over spec forces dying in Niger???

The article isn't real clear on that:
Bringing the bureau into the probe of a military operation gone awry isn’t unprecedented, FBI officials said. The FBI has the authority to take over the investigation but hasn’t yet done so, the officials said.

FBI investigators are helping gather and evaluate evidence about the militants considered responsible for the ambush and how members of the group learned of the joint U.S.-Nigerien patrol.

The FBI might be just providing technical expertise, although a terrorist attack on Americans could conceivably also be a criminal act. There's a lot of Congressional interest, so more info is likely to follow.
   1445. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:44 AM (#5558748)
A follow-up to #1439:
Trump denied the reports of what he said to the widow and how he said it, claiming he had "proof" that his version was right and the Congresswoman was lying: "I'd like her to make the statement again because I did not say what she said." When Trump was asked "What's your next move?" he replied, "Let her make her statement again and then you'll find out."

The Congresswoman made her statement again. And again. On Twitter, on television, to print reporters. Yet Trump's proof did not emerge. We didn't find out.

When questioned, Sarah Huckabee Sanders had the explanation: Trump's proof was that other people were listening to the call.

Gen. John Kelly confirmed he was a listener. But in doing so, Kelly confirmed that he heard the exact words that Trump insisted he "never said," and which were "totally fabricated."

Serious people.
   1446. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:56 AM (#5558753)
The IRS has announced it will be cracking down starting next year, refusing to process all tax forms that do not include personal disclosures about health coverage status.

Will that extend to not cashing the tax payment checks? Hmmm. I wonder how popular a Deferred Action on Undocumented ObamaCare Purchasers program would be.
   1447. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:16 AM (#5558755)
Don't know. But the IRS says it extends to the refund checks.
   1448. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:04 AM (#5558771)
Was there ever much coal used in Texas

Late answering Clapper in #1304 above: yes, Texas has been the largest US producer of lignite coal, most of which is used locally in power plants. It's a gigantic state, so its overall production (ninth among the states in 2015) is not large compared to its area or population. But coal is a substantial industry here. Seeing coal overtaken by wind power in Texas is a milestone, or watershed, or windshed, or tipping point, or something at least.


The Yankee Clapper has been very active on this page overnight, yet BDC's Texas-sized smackdown on coal has gone unanswered. Hmm. Tough to say, but many doubt whether ths situation could be considered a 'good look'.
   1449. manchestermets Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:14 AM (#5558772)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls? The only possible alternative is that they sincerely believe the coincidence that the day the Washington Post spoke to Chris Baldridge was the same day for which a Trump staffer had, four months previously, entered "Send $25,000 cheque to father of fallen soldier" into the schedule.
   1450. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:22 AM (#5558773)
As if there's any difference to the consumer when that policy is taken away.

There is indeed.


Indeed there is, Mr. MOTO. You're still not getting the policy, but it's been denied to you in one case by the government and in the other case by an insurance company.

Feel free to ask Catherine Rampell, an award-winning journalist who's an alumna of your alma mater, if she just "made up" that term. Here, you can read the entire article where she used it, and contact her at crampell@washpost.com.

Why do I need to do that, when I can google and see for myself?


Right, because if it's not on google, it can't exist.

The bigger question is: given that I was the one who noted that you pulled this made up claim from the Washington Post, why did you think you were being informative by saying that it was in the Washington Post?

My point wasn't the name of the secondary source was for the "buffalo policy" term. The point was that it wasn't a term that Catherine Rampell pulled out of her hat, and that if you want to question that assertion, you can email her for verification.

Or you can be like Ray, and just double down on your assertion.

Policies that cover only catastrophic care have a way of transforming non-catastrophic illnesses into catastrophic results.

This is gibberish. Health insurance doesn’t do anything to illnesses.


Tell that to someone who thought they were covered for an illness by one of those two bit policies, discovers that he isn't, and then sees that illness progress because he has no way of paying for treatment of it. I'm sure this is all irrelevant to a doctrinaire libertarian whose idea of business ethics begins and ends with caveat emptor, but it may not so irrelevant to a person stuck with a policy like that in a time of need.
   1451. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:28 AM (#5558775)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls?

Even I'm getting tired of this. They're not.
   1452. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:38 AM (#5558778)
Tell that to someone who thought they were covered for an illness by one of those two bit policies, discovers that he isn't,
Look, we don't make policy based on ####### morons. If someone thought that because Gatorade supplies energy it would work in a car engine, and then destroyed the car by trying to use it in place of gasoline, we would mock the person, not blame Pepsico for making a bad product.

and then sees that illness progress because he has no way of paying for treatment of it.
I didn't think Homer's brain needed to explain this to you, but "Money can be exchanged for goods and services."
   1453. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5558779)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls?


Even I'm getting tired of this. They're not.

They're not trolls. They're just enthusiastic contrarians who go the full Alfonso Bedoya whenever anyone asks them to show proof of their assertions.
   1454. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:41 AM (#5558780)
Your sentence lacks coherence, but regardless, it's not matter of "have to." The insurance industry wants people to get the routine stuff so it doesn't become the expensive stuff. Again, that's the whole concept behind HMOs and their variants.
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.
   1455. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5558781)
Gen. John Kelly confirmed he was a listener. But in doing so, Kelly confirmed that he heard the exact words that Trump insisted he "never said," and which were "totally fabricated."

Serious people.


LOL, indeed. Kelly essentially defended Trump's calls without equivocation, and rightly derided the grandstanding Congresswoman for listening in.

NY Times, above the fold. Today.
   1456. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:46 AM (#5558782)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls? The only possible alternative is that they sincerely believe the coincidence that the day the Washington Post spoke to Chris Baldridge was the same day for which a Trump staffer had, four months previously, entered "Send $25,000 cheque to father of fallen soldier" into the schedule.
I don't think Ray is quite at SBB levels; he's not denying that the check was sent because of the WaPo inquiry. He's just pretending it doesn’t matter, because after all the check was sent and that's all that counts. Ray is taking the position that the shoplifter who puts stuff back on the shelves after he realizes the security guard saw him stuffing it in his jacket isn't guilty of a crime, because after all he never got it out of the store.

Where Ray is full-on troll, though, is pretending that people criticized Trump for sending the check, when he knows full well that people are criticizing Trump for not sending the check.
   1457. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5558783)
Tell that to someone who thought they were covered for an illness by one of those two bit policies, discovers that he isn't,

Look, we don't make policy based on ####### morons. If someone thought that because Gatorade supplies energy it would work in a car engine, and then destroyed the car by trying to use it in place of gasoline, we would mock the person, not blame Pepsico for making a bad product.


So then why are those policies even being offered in the first place, since they do little good to anyone who gets sick but wasn't run over by a buffalo herd?

and then sees that illness progress because he has no way of paying for treatment of it.

I didn't think Homer's brain needed to explain this to you, but "Money can be exchanged for goods and services."


Sure, if you've got the money.

But then if you don't, then I'm sure Trump will send you a check. Problem solved, and freedom maintained!
   1458. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5558784)
My point wasn't the name of the secondary source was for the "buffalo policy" term. The point was that it wasn't a term that Catherine Rampell pulled out of her hat,
Uh, showing that she said it -- which I already knew since I told you about it -- doesn't show anything of the kind.
   1459. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:49 AM (#5558786)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls?


Even I'm getting tired of this. They're not.


Trolling is a behavior, a tactic if you will. Basically no one is a troll all the time and very few are a troll none of the time for that matter. More to the point trolling is largely a matter of intent. The same posts from two different posters could be trolling or not depending on the intent of the poster, which is pretty much unknowable from this side of the computer monitor.

So there is no real way to know when someone is trolling or not (though some posts clearly tend one way or another). However, as I have said before, "Troll or not" is not the right question to ask. "Do I want to engage with this poster on this topic?" is - IMO - the correct question to ask.

And luckily this site provides the Ignore option and the fact that we are all functioning adults (or a close approximation to that) means we should also be able to (lower case "i") ignore posts and posters as we will. Try it, it makes things pleasant to read a dumb post and say "Nah, that is dumb enough not to need a response" and then respond to someone who is worth engaging in.
   1460. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5558788)
But what does John Kelly know? It's not like he lost a son in combat or anything.
   1461. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5558791)
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.


This is actually a fairly complex topic (question) and last I checked still under research. The reason is that it is a pretty involved calculation because health can radically impact future earnings in fairly large ways over a long time horizon (costs also, BTW). It is a bit like education, where one could argue it is not worth the money to educate kindergartners since they are not productive members of society and won't be for up to two decades in the future, but still if you look at the entire time horizon of their life and all the various societal costs and suddenly the ROI for education (especially early education) is pretty darn good. And health is much trickier to control for than education is.

Of course I don't think either health care or education should be reduced to strictly ROI computations. I think society as a whole benefits from a healthy and educated populous even if that overall investment is in strict financial returns is negative (which again has not been proven for many different types of medicine and has largely been disproven for most education).
   1462. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:03 AM (#5558793)
LOL, indeed. Kelly essentially defended Trump's calls without equivocation, and rightly derided the grandstanding Congresswoman for listening in.


The White House Chief of Staff defended his boss?

Well, geez.... now I don't know what to believe. Maybe Mike Pence should weigh in, too, just so that we can get another opinion.
   1463. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:05 AM (#5558794)
Look, we don't make policy based on ####### morons.


Ummmm, we often do exactly that. The lowest common denominator does drive much of our public policy. And if you think only ####### morons fail to fully understand their health coverage then the vast majority of the country are ####### morons. And if we are not making policy based on the vast majority of the US, who on Earth are we making policy for in this Democracy of the people, by the people, for the people?
   1464. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:07 AM (#5558795)
Well, geez.... now I don't know what to believe.


I do. It's actually not really even a close call.
   1465. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:09 AM (#5558796)
BDC's Texas-sized smackdown on coal

No smackdown intended, honestly, just some background. Texas is so large and diverse that it can amaze even Texans the sorts of things that go on here. If I were to learn that Texas leads the US in ballet schools, or alligators, or ice-hockey rinks, or native speakers of Serbo-Croatian, it would be par for the course.
   1466. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:09 AM (#5558797)
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.

Thanks, fake doctor.
   1467. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5558798)
And as if to drive the final nail in this coffin of derangement:

Mr. Kelly said that he had advised Mr. Trump that presidents generally do not directly call family members of slain service members, and he confirmed that Mr. Obama had not called him when Lieutenant Kelly was killed — as Mr. Trump had alluded to this week.

“That was not a criticism; that was just to simply say, ‘I don’t believe President Obama called,’” Mr. Kelly said. He said that Lieutenant Kelly’s friends in Afghanistan called him in the hours after his son died, and noted that presidents often write condolence letters to grieving military families instead of calling.
   1468. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5558800)
Well, geez.... now I don't know what to believe.


I do. It's actually not really even a close call.


And now SBB is defending Trump?

Boy, it's like the world has turned upside down. When people who work for Trump AND people who has spent more than a year as his staunchest defender weigh in in support of Trump.... Really makes you think.
   1469. BrianBrianson Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:13 AM (#5558801)
Are there still people who think that Ray/SBB aren't trolls?


Ray isn't a troll - the technical term is, I believe, a nutter.

   1470. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5558802)
And as if to drive the final nail in this coffin of derangement:


How do you do that from inside the coffin?

Trump didn't call Johnson's parents either... Like Sgt Johnson, Kelly's son was married.
   1471. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5558803)
And now SBB is defending Trump?


That appears to be the case in this instance. Honestly, this most recent round of derangement over the phone calls is an abject embarrassment.
   1472. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:17 AM (#5558806)
My cup of tears runneth over...

One recently departed House staffer had this to say about the challenges of legislating in the era of Trump: “The job isn't fun anymore. You get beat up in D.C. for everything Trump says or does, only to go home to get beat up for not defending Trump enough by the base. It's brutal.”


You built Frankenstein, ultimately decided it would be a good idea to take dance lessons with it, and now it's not fun getting your toes stomped on? Poor, poor dear...
   1473. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:17 AM (#5558807)
overall investment is in strict financial returns is negative (which again has not been proven for many different types of medicine

One problem with measuring investment in medicine, I reckon, is that ultimately there's a universal 100% negative outcome. So you can't measure based on a benchmark of "success," but rather one of "happiness," and that is harder to quantify. A joint replacement that keeps Grandma mobile for an extra five years, out of wretched misery for another ten, and perhaps even alive for another 15, is a total loss in monetary terms; she's just sucking up Social Security the whole time. But we do kind of feel happier for it. If we like Grandma.
   1474. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:19 AM (#5558808)
That appears to be the case in this instance. Honestly, this most recent round of derangement over the phone calls is an abject embarrassment.


Tell your boy... Or do I need to walk you through the timeline of events for the "derangement over phone calls"?
   1475. BrianBrianson Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5558810)
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.


Vaccines are a big part of preventative medicine. Cancer screenings - sources seem to disagree whether it's likely to be a cost saver or roughly cost-neutral e.g., vs. i.e., - maybe some costs savings for diabetes management for instance, ditto prenatal care

Which is really covering a lot of preventative care
   1476. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5558815)
And as if to drive the final nail in this coffin of derangement:

Mr. Kelly said that he had advised Mr. Trump that presidents generally do not directly call family members of slain service members, and he confirmed that Mr. Obama had not called him when Lieutenant Kelly was killed — as Mr. Trump had alluded to this week.
Uh, that proves the opposite of what you think/pretend it does.
   1477. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:30 AM (#5558816)
A joint replacement that keeps Grandma mobile for an extra five years, out of wretched misery for another ten, and perhaps even alive for another 15, is a total loss in monetary terms; she's just sucking up Social Security the whole time. But we do kind of feel happier for it.


Part of the calculation here though is that to be complete we need to calculate the benefits of knowing that not only is Grandma taken care of in her old age, but also that in the future we too will be taken care of. Because knowing our future has reduced risks influences our decisions today, and calculating exactly what the impact is and then calculating an ROI from that impact ... well complex doesn't even begin to cover it.

But yeah I am happy with grandma (even not my grandma) having a good quality of life. Grandma is awesome (in aggregate) and deserves the best. Grandpa too, I mean he is no Grandma, but he has his moments. :)
   1478. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5558817)
Or do I need to walk you through the timeline of events for the "derangement over phone calls"?


The timeline of events *is* the derangement. Keeping a timeline in the face of the unambiguous statements of a US general *is* the derangement.
   1479. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:32 AM (#5558818)
So then why are those policies even being offered in the first place, since they do little good to anyone who gets sick but wasn't run over by a buffalo herd?
Your premise is utterly wrong, probably because you know absolutely nothing about the topic but are pretending to be an expert based on having read a single column in the WaPo. They do good for anyone who actually suffers a catastrophic health problem, which is what the entire concept of insurance is designed for. They don't pay for day to day maladies, any more than car insurance covers routine auto repairs or for filling up the gas tank.
   1480. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:33 AM (#5558819)
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.

Thanks, fake doctor.
Uh, my statement is math, not the practice of medicine.
   1481. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:35 AM (#5558820)
Of course I don't think either health care or education should be reduced to strictly ROI computations. I think society as a whole benefits from a healthy and educated populous even if that overall investment is in strict financial returns is negative
1) You mean populace.
2) Uh, you don't seem to know what ROI means. If "society as a whole [sic]" benefits, then that definitionally is a positive ROI.
   1482. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5558821)
You built Frankenstein, ultimately decided it would be a good idea to take dance lessons with it, and now it's not fun getting your toes stomped on? Poor, poor dear...


I get what you are saying, but man this White House. I totally feel some sympathy for some*. It is not a job that particularly appeals to me - way too much stress - but I can feel bad for those who work and dream about it and end up working in that dumpster fire. For example ...

Blindsided Trump officials scrambling to develop opioid plan

President Donald Trump overrode his own advisers when he promised to deliver an emergency declaration next week to combat the nation’s worsening opioid crisis.

“That is a very, very big statement,” he said Monday. “It's a very important step. ... We're going to be doing it in the next week.”

Blindsided officials are now scrambling to develop such a plan, but it is unclear when it will be announced, how or if it will be done, and whether the administration has the permanent leadership to execute it, said two administration officials.

“They are not ready for this,” a public health advocate said of an emergency declaration after talking to Health and Human Services officials enlisted in the effort.


* Elected officials not so much. I also want to note that a flurry of GOP retirements from office is a warning siren of a possible wave election. Keep an eye out for retirements, they often can signal the on coming tsunami.
   1483. manchestermets Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5558822)
DMN #1456

Ray is taking the position that the shoplifter who puts stuff back on the shelves after he realizes the security guard saw him stuffing it in his jacket isn't guilty of a crime, because after all he never got it out of the store.


In the UK - obviously I don't know about the US - he'd be quite correct on this, no crime has been committed until the shoplifter leaves the store with goods they haven't paid for.

Mouse #1459


So there is no real way to know when someone is trolling or not (though some posts clearly tend one way or another). However, as I have said before, "Troll or not" is not the right question to ask. "Do I want to engage with this poster on this topic?" is - IMO - the correct question to ask.

And luckily this site provides the Ignore option


And yet, unfortunately, people don't have the common courtesy not to quote people whose posts I am ignoring. What can you do, hey?
   1484. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:39 AM (#5558824)
1) You mean populace.
2) Uh, you don't seem to know what ROI means. If "society as a whole [sic]" benefits, then that definitionally is a positive ROI.


1) Yup. My bad.
2) Nope. Not all benefits are financial. There are many cases where a financial ROI suggests something shouldn't be done, and yet the non-financial benefits still make it worthwhile. One can try to construct an ROI that approximates non-financial benefits in financial terms for calculation purposes, but that is most certainly not was I was talking about. Still ... my bad if I was unclear.
   1485. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:39 AM (#5558825)
They do good for anyone who actually suffers a catastrophic health problem

But isn't your warrant here that everybody ought to be able to save, say, $100,000 for something sub-catastrophic? What if a lot of people's level of medical/financial catastrophe is way closer to $1,000? Or even $100?

Another warrant is that if you can't save $100,000 to take care of those pesky problems, you made bad choices and/or drew a bad ticket in the life lottery, and you deserve to suffer. That is nobly libertarian as always :)
   1486. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:41 AM (#5558827)
And yet, unfortunately, people don't have the common courtesy not to quote people whose posts I am ignoring. What can you do, hey?


Well you can ignore the quotes or not, depending on your personal preferences - like I said in the portion you didn't quote :)
   1487. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5558831)
and he confirmed that Mr. Obama had not called him when Lieutenant Kelly was killed


Did Obama call his (Lt Kelly's) wife? Because that would be the appropriate call. I'm sure Obama didn't call Lt Kelly's 3rd cousin once removed either.
   1488. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5558832)
Many of those appropriately labeled "buffalo" policies** were indeed restricted under the ACA, but given their almost total lack of real coverage, that was more of a feature than a bug.


It was actually one of the buggiest bugs that ever bugged. We should be encouraging and subsidizing buffalo policies as almost the first order of business. That at least takes care of the cancer bankruptcies.
   1489. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5558835)
Make of it what you will ... Uninsured Rate Begins to Climb

Gallup finds the percentage of U.S. adults lacking health insurance rose in the third quarter of 2017 to 12.3%, up 0.6 percentage points from the previous quarter and 1.4 points since the end of 2016.
   1490. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:55 AM (#5558836)
With a few exceptions like vaccines, preventative medicine doesn't save money.

Thanks, fake doctor.
Uh, my statement is math, not the practice of medicine.


I think David is mostly right on this. Healthy people seeing the doctor is mostly a waste of time and money. The US spends $8 billion on check-ups. There is no real evidence that this helps. We waste peoples time and money. And to show it is not all dollars and cents, there is a lot of false positives, where people undergo medical procedures that are unnecessary (see mammograms and prostate tests for examples). People undergo surgeries which have a lot of downside (time money pain, side effects, surgical complications) for no known benefit.

There are exceptions for younger and older people, plus people who have to monitor conditions.
   1491. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5558837)
Vox is covering this closely; the main problem with US healthcare remains the sky-high and opaque cost structure.
   1492. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:03 AM (#5558840)
I think David is mostly right on this.


Like I said, it is a really complex question and everything doesn't reduce down to financial returns well at all. I wouldn't be surprised either way, though the most likely outcome IMO is current medicine is a mix of efficient and inefficient (expressed in financial terms) practices, which overall could be dramatically "improved".

I put improved in scare quotes, because the two most important forces in the discussion have a very different incentive structure than society at large has. Of course I am speaking of Doctors and Patients. Neither of whom has (currently) financial efficiency as a primary concern. Who does have financial efficiency as a major driver? Well that would be the least popular (by far) participant in the whole process - insurance companies.

If you want to overhaul the current medical system and you want it to be more popular than the bubonic plague you have to cater to doctors and patients (Which puts you right from the start at odds with financial efficiency).
   1493. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5558844)
So to recap this week in Trumpworld:

On Monday, Trump was asked why he hadn’t commented on an ambush in Niger that claimed the lives of 4 Green Berets 12 days earlier*. In his response**, he claimed he called the families of fallen soldiers “when it’s appropriate” and “If you look at President Obama and other presidents, most of them didn't make calls — a lot of them didn't make calls.”***

While investigating Trump’s claim**** the Washington Post talked to the father of a fallen soldier. The father said in June, Trump promised to send him a check since the father didn’t receive any of the soldier’s death benefit and have his aides set up a fundraising account, but still hadn’t. After the story was published, the White House was asked to comment; the response was “The check’s in the mail”.*****

On Wednesday****** he called Myeshia Johnson, widow of one of those killed in Niger while Mrs. Johnson was awaiting her husband’s remains at the airport. Frederica Wilson, who is Johnson’s US Representative and a personal friend, was with Mrs. Johnson at the time. During the conversation, Trump said "he knew what he signed up for ... but when it happens, it hurts anyway”.******* Later, Wilson noted how insensitive the comment was. Trump claimed he made no such comment, and that he had proof.********

But yeah, we’re the deranged ones.

*An apt question, given he usually responds to all sort of minutiae within seconds.
**His response never answered the actual question.
***Of course, all of his predecessors often called not just families of fallen soldiers, but met their remains returning from battle. Obama, it was noted, often visited wounded soldiers while they were still being treated.
****Given his, and his administration’s, history of lying this seems like good journalism.
*****Meanwhile, there has been no mention of the fundraiser.
******2 days after he said he called the families “when it’s appropriate” and a full 2 weeks after the incident he still hadn’t commented on.#
*******The conversation was on speakerphone; others including Johnson’s mother heard the statement and back up Wilson’s version.
********No proof has been given.

#Bonus points: Apparently, a statement was prepared within 2 days (and to be fair, it’s pretty good) but was never released.
   1494. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:09 AM (#5558845)
One problem with measuring investment in medicine, I reckon, is that ultimately there's a universal 100% negative outcome. So you can't measure based on a benchmark of "success," but rather one of "happiness," and that is harder to quantify. A joint replacement that keeps Grandma mobile for an extra five years, out of wretched misery for another ten, and perhaps even alive for another 15, is a total loss in monetary terms; she's just sucking up Social Security the whole time. But we do kind of feel happier for it. If we like Grandma.


Agree - though, sometimes it can be a double-edged sword... My grandmother got one knee replacement done about 5 years before she passed -- and the other a little over a year before passing. In the case of the latter knee - it wasn't as bad as the first one that got replaced, but the procedure was covered under Medicare - and her doctor was strongly encouraging her to do it. In fairness, so were we (her family). She wasn't so hot for the second knee - she absolutely hated therapy after the first one and wasn't looking forward to a do-over. The truth is that, in retrospect, I think we were a bit selfish in pushing for it (one my aunts in particular still carries a lot of guilt over it) - her mind was still sharp as a tack, her mobility had (eventually) improved after the first knee... but she was also 85 and not without other health issues that inevitably come at that age. In any case, a post-surgery accident in the hospital led to a second surgery and then complications (an infection, etc) and she just never really recovered -- spending the overwhelming majority of her last year in a rehab center, with the occasional days/week detour to the hospital. The whole family did do yeoman's work - for virtually the entire year, someone spent every day with her in rehab, from open to close.

She was always a stiff upper lip sort - but she also was really unhappy during a lot of that last year - not blaming anyone per se, but just... well, frustrated because she knew her time on earth was about up and just hated spending the last year in antiseptic rehab facility and hospital rooms, on top of her deteriorating health.

One of the things I still very much hold against the GOP Congress from 2010 onward was their assholishness over Donald Berwick's nomination to head CMS -- and the above is one of the primary reasons why...

I've weighed in before that when it comes to things like "Medicare for all" -- and even just Medicare as it exists now -- over-utilization is a big problem. From the aggregate, policy level - it's a big financial drain (absolutely milked by hospitals).

But even on a personal, patient level -- it's actually a problem, too. Dr. Berwick had done tons of research and was a strong advocate of this same idea -- that patient centered care means the first and foremost concern should be the patient's quality of life and patient's wishes... that is to say - that just because something (like a knee) can be replaced, even at age 85, the decision -- and the advocacy of physicians -- ought not to be so wholly centered on the idea of "well, we can do it. It's covered. Let's do it." I'll grant, it's awfully hard to legislate or regulate that idea - it's really got to be more of a philosophical shift/approach, but I think Berwick was/is probably the most outstanding and perfect choice ever nominated to head CMS (he did serve a year as a recess appointment after the GOP blocked his nomination, but then resigned because it was obvious he wasn't going to be confirmed a year later anyway).

Pretty sure I ranted up a storm over Berwick at the time (if not here, I know that I did elsewhere) because I think that GOP was a real bunch of shitheads for opposing him.

First, it was blatantly hypocritical. There's no end to GOP ######## and moaning about Medicare's soaring costs - and I actually agree - but here's a guy nominated to head the agency responsible for Medicare who is actually on the same wavelength regarding costs -- and not just ######## and moaning about it, but actually hits one of the primary nails squarely on the head: Over-utilization.

Second, Berwick wasn't a bean counter solely looking at costs. He had previously been a practicing physician (granted, decades prior) - but he was highly regarded prior to being nominated/entering the political realm, had studied and published quite extensively on the matter of modern medicine trending away from being "patient-centric", that doctors had become too enamored with what they could do, and that modern medicine had, to a large degree - lost its way in respecting the wishes of patients and considering the bigger picture of quality of life with them.... that specialization had turned physicians into unthinking hammers in search of nails.

In short, he was that truly rare bird -- exquisitely qualified for a government post AND offering both an understanding and path to a solution to those concerned about Medicare's cost inflation, while simultaneously underpinning it with the idea that cost inflation ALSO wasn't truly serving the patients well in many cases. He was basically threading an almost impossible needle.

   1495. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5558846)
I think David is mostly right on this. Healthy people seeing the doctor is mostly a waste of time and money. The US spends $8 billion on check-ups. There is no real evidence that this helps. We waste peoples time and money. And to show it is not all dollars and cents, there is a lot of false positives, where people undergo medical procedures that are unnecessary (see mammograms and prostate tests for examples).


Pretty much, yeah. As it happens, I had a 3-month checkup (required if my scrips are to be renewed) yesterday, with the added wrinkle this time around of an EKG. Something about the results concerned the doctor enough to prompt him to schedule me for an echocardiogram in a couple of weeks. (I suppose I should be concerned about possible heart issues, given my father's apparent* death from one at age 34. I mainly need to lose a few dozen pounds. *sigh*)

*That is, he definitely died, I gather (never saw the body, because just-short-of-8-year-old-me resisted looking into the casket at the funeral; never even saw the grave till 3-odd decades after the fact). Heart attack was found to be the cause of death, or so I was told, though I have no idea how strenuously they looked into it.
   1496. Greg K Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5558848)
Ray isn't a troll - the technical term is, I believe, a nutter.

It's the rise of the nutters!
   1497. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5558849)
I missed this story when it first resurfaced a couple weeks ago. Who knows, Mr. Petty Grudge man could end up bombing Pakistan over some bad halal from that cart off Canal Street in 2010.
The string of tweets was rife with bargaining and backhanded compliments.

The @nfl games are so boring now that actually, I’m glad I didn’t get the Bills. Boring games, too many flags, too soft!
   1498. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:17 AM (#5558851)
1493: You omitted from those last two footnotes the fact that chief of staff Kelly also corroborated the congresswoman's statements about what Trump had said; he just spun them differently.

You also omitted between *** and **** the fact of Trump being forced to walk back his comments about past presidents, saying, "Well, I don't know; that's just what people have told me."
   1499. Greg K Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5558853)

The @nfl games are so boring now that actually, I’m glad I didn’t get the Bills. Boring games, too many flags, too soft!

If it's Bills games he's watching, that might explain the "NFL is boring" talk.
   1500. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5558854)
Something about the results concerned the doctor enough to prompt him to schedule me for an echocardiogram in a couple of weeks.


Doctors "over proscribe"* such things for a variety of reasons, mostly boiling down to "better safe than sorry" and "patients prefer it that way".

* Based on a pure statistical look at it. Still if you are going to be overly cautious on something, the heart is a good place to start, especially with bad family history.
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