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Monday, October 16, 2017

OTP 16 October 2017: Sorry, Yankee fans: Trump’s claim that he can ensure victory simply isn’t true

As is sometimes the case with Trump’s tweet’s, his claims don’t hold up. We identified 14 games that Trump has attended since 1988, including two preseason games and the game above. Of those 14 games, the Yankees won eight and lost six — 57 percent of the time during seasons when the Yankees won 60 percent of their games overall.

In other words — Trump might be a jinx.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2017 at 07:49 AM | 1967 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, playoffs, politics, yankees

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   1601. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5559027)
flip
   1602. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5559028)
Yeah, it couldn't be that the players had anything to do with those four straight crapouts.


Good lord. The Jason Werth window has to close soon, yeah?
   1603. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5559029)
No, the point is that he promised to do a nice thing and then didn't do it, until he was caught. If he hadn't been caught he never would have. That's why people are shitting all over him, and it's entirely appropriate; the fact that he didn't have to make the pledge in the first place doesn't make it okay to not follow through.

All perfectly true, but one definition of insanity might be "trying to explain an obvious point to Ray for the 100th time after he's ignored it the first 99 times."
   1604. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:16 PM (#5559030)
If he hadn't been caught he never would have.


Pure speculation by people with ... cough ... very little credibility.

the fact that he didn't have to make the pledge in the first place doesn't make it okay to not follow through.


Uh, yeah, it kind of does -- particularly where, as here, the "pledge" wasn't the swiftest thing for a president to do in the first instance. The idea that it would be rethought after the emotion of the call passes is eminently understandable.

   1605. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5559032)
This analogy doesn't work, because shoplifting is a negative thing, while promising to hand someone $25,000 and then not getting around to it yet is not.
First, it wouldn't matter if your second assertion were true; it wouldn't change the aptness of the analogy. Second, your second assertion isn't true. Not living up to your word is a bad thing, even if you were not required to make the promise in the first place. (Putting the "yet" in double-begs the question.)
   1606. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5559036)
Hillary wasn't good at email security.


You actually don't have to be "good" at that. You're just supposed to follow the rules, if you agree to be SoS.
   1607. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:25 PM (#5559038)
You actually don't have to be "good" at that. You're just supposed to follow the rules, if you agree to be SoS.


And you have the audacity to declare others "deranged."
   1608. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5559040)
So, to recap, Trump claimed that he called the families of fallen solders, and when WaPo went to look for families of fallen soldiers Trump had called, they... found some such families, including this father, who confirmed that Trump had indeed called him.
And others that said he hadn't; you conveniently leave that part out. NTTAWWT, except that he had just gotten finished bragging about he always did it unlike all his bum predecessors.
Now -- was WaPo then satisfied reporting that and ending the story there? No, the story became that Trump was an a^^hole. Because he hadn't yet gotten around to handing a grieving military father $25,000.
You really don't grasp the function of journalism, do you? Let me put it in lawyer terms, although you aren't a litigator: you sue a company for racial discrimination. In the course of discovery, you find out that (a) they didn't discriminate against the employee, but (b) they didn't pay the employee everything the employee was owed. Do you (1) tell the employee that the employee should be satisfied, and end the suit there, or (2) drop the discrimination claim but raise the new claim? (Hint: it's #2.) If a reporter learns something newsworthy¹, he doesn't drop it just because it wasn't the story he was originally looking into.

Moreover, the Post simply reported the facts. They did not call him an a$$hole. You're the one who realizes that those facts make him one -- and yet you're desperately scrambling to pretend otherwise.



¹What I assume happened, though of course this is pure speculation:
WaPo: Did Trump call you when your son died?
Father: Yes, he did. In fact, we had a great conversation. I told him about my struggles, and he promised me $25,000 out of his pocket to help out!
WaPo: Wow, that's interesting.
Father: I still haven't gotten the money, though.
   1609. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5559043)
David, now that Ray has posted 1543 and is no longer lying about the nature of the criticism,


I never lied about the nature of the criticism. I said it was ridiculous to #### on someone who had written a check.
   1610. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5559046)
I said it was ridiculous to #### on someone who had written a check.


Because you constantly ignore the actual nature of the criticism, which is that he lied about writing a check, and only did that to spin bad PR away once his lie was made public.
   1611. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5559048)
If a reporter learns something newsworthy¹,


Premise fail. It's not "newsworthy." The promise doesn't even involve Trump's official functions, much less newsworthy official functions.
   1612. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5559049)
Moreover, the Post simply reported the facts. They did not call him an a$$hole. You're the one who realizes that those facts make him one -- and yet you're desperately scrambling to pretend otherwise.
Should also note, there is a very nice story about a call to another widow that went much better on the front page of the WaPo now.

Of course he also twice invited her to "come see him" in the White House, which is both very generous and a little odd. But the gist of it is, he doesn't ALWAYS insult grieving widows.
   1613. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5559051)
People actually made timelines and lists about this. Timelines and lists. To make the timelines and lists, they had to search out minutiae. About a guy making a phone call that a guy who lost a son in combat and heard the call said was perfectly fine, and about a guy giving $25,000 to the family of a fallen soldier.

They made timelines and lists about this.

Trolls actually spend time trolling baseball message boards, knocking what sincere members post about. While spending their own time trolling. Trolling. Their own time.

Deranged? No deranged, no deranged, you're the deranged one.
   1614. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5559052)
Of course he also twice invited her to "come see him" in the White House, which is both very generous and a little odd.


And 100% insincere. If she actually tried to set up a personal visit the PR hacks would make it happen, because he said that on the call, but he didn't actually mean it. He was just doing that same verbal diareah thing he always does.
   1615. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5559054)
Ray, #1549/1558:
I never disputed that Trump said the words Wilson said he said... I never disputed that Trump said the words.


But Donald Trump disputed the words. Then disputed them again. Then disputed them again.
   1616. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:47 PM (#5559055)
I said it was ridiculous to #### on someone who had written a check.


I imagine Hillary Clinton has written checks. You #### on her constantly.

What you said was it's ridiculous to #### on somene because he wrote a check, which is where the lie claim came from, because no one did. SBB offered mild criticism, no one else said boo about sending a check.
   1617. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:49 PM (#5559057)
It's not "newsworthy."


"Billionaire President promises to help destitue father of fallen soldier. Doesn't follow through" is a million times more newsworthy than "57 states", which you never shut up about back in the day.
   1618. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5559059)
The most reasonable interpretation of the events is that the check was never going to be sent, until knowledge of the promise became public.

That's a pure guess.
False. It is a deduction from established facts.
(Nor was this any of WaPo's business, or anyone else's.)
Anything the president does, especially things touching on his official duties, is the WaPo's business, and everyone else's.
   1619. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5559061)
I'm about to get on a plane,
full disclosure have not watched or read this, but here's some dispute of Kelly's objective truth.
   1620. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5559062)
Doesn't follow through" is a million times more newsworthy than "57 states", which you never shut up about back in the day.


I don't even know what "57 states" means. I doubt I said a word about it.

I barely even know what BENGHAZI! is, beyond the fact that four (?) embassy people were killed, and I doubt I've said 100 words about it. I still don't even know the details of Hillary's alleged lies to the families about it.

You really do have me confused with someone else.
   1621. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5559064)
Trump promised to give $25,000, a large amount of money to most people, but Trump isn't most people.
To the extent one makes the argument (and I'm not saying you were) that because it isn't a large amount of money for Trump he might have just forgotten, I don't buy it. The amount of money relative to his wealth might not be large enough to be memorable -- although I don't actually think % of net worth is the right way to approach that -- but the circumstances would've made it memorable. If he's at some gala and someone approaches him while he's schmoozing and says, "Can I have $25,000 for cancer research?" I can see him forgetting. But this was a telephone call with the father of a dead soldier. You'd have to be Raybot to not have that be indelibly etched in your memory. ("What's the big deal? People die every day. This guy could easily have been killed in a car crash if he hadn't died there.")
   1622. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5559065)
Jeez. I'm no Dusty fan, but that seems like particularly crappy work by Nats management and ownership.
   1623. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5559066)
Anything the president does, especially things touching on his official duties, is the WaPo's business, and everyone else's.


I assume this is in reply to SBB. Ray is obtuse and adamant in his refusal to see anything other than what he wants to see, but he's not usually this level of bad. This is SBB level.
   1624. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5559067)
I never lied about the nature of the criticism. I said it was ridiculous to #### on someone who had written a check.
You're going to go with this, really?
1133 My issue has been the people banging on Trump for having the unmitigated call to give $25,000 to a grieving military father. Those folks are indeed suffering from TDS.

1203 Insulting him for handing $25,000 to a grieving military father is not a sane look.

1208 That's what this entire dustup is. Trump did something nice for someone by handing him $25,000 and is getting #### for it.
Every scrap of criticism (on this issue) has been over the delay, not the sending of the check. Are you seriously going to hide behind pedantry that you haven't been calling out posters here on this issue? Or has all your outrage been levelled at SBB, and we're all just oversensitive in thinking it might be about the delay? At the very least, your claim that the "entire dustup" is solely for sending the check is a lie.
   1625. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5559068)
Hillary wasn't good at email security.

Hillary affirmatively set up a rogue server.
There's no such thing as a "rogue server."
   1626. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5559070)
Anything the president does, especially things touching on his official duties, is the WaPo's business, and everyone else's.


This isn't the applicable principle, but it doesn't "touch on his official duties." It was a purely personal promise to undertake a purely personal act.

   1627. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5559071)
David, now that Ray has posted 1543 and is no longer lying about the nature of the criticism, it's a difference of opinion.
Ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

Me neither.
   1628. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5559073)
There's no such thing as a "rogue server."


You mean there *wasn't* such a thing as a rogue server.

Then Hillary came along, and now there is.
   1629. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5559074)
57 States

A verbal typo which Obama opponents used for years as a cudgel to bludgeon him with Beavis and Butthead style. "Huh, huh, huh. Obama's so stupid. He thinks there are 57 states in the US. Huh, huh, huh."

The nuttier ones claimed it was a secret code, talking about the 57 Islamic states.

if you never commented on it, fine, I apologize. But plenty of others here did, for years.
   1630. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5559076)
In fairness to SBB -- some quick searching shows that the "57 states" thing is Clapper's favorite binky.... he occasionally let Ray and Joey B play with it, but it's clearly got "Property of Clapper" stenciled on it.
   1631. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5559077)
If he hadn't been caught he never would have.

Pure speculation
Logical deduction with overwhelming factual support.

the fact that he didn't have to make the pledge in the first place doesn't make it okay to not follow through.

Uh, yeah, it kind of does -- particularly where, as here, the "pledge" wasn't the swiftest thing for a president to do in the first instance. The idea that it would be rethought after the emotion of the call passes is eminently understandable.
First, there's no evidence he "rethought" anything. Second, buyer's remorse would not actually be a valid excuse for welching. Not that you'd understand that, given how you tried to do that with your election bets.
   1632. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5559079)
First, there's no evidence he "rethought" anything. Second, buyer's remorse would not actually be a valid excuse for welching. Not that you'd understand that, given how you tried to do that with your election bets.


And third, even if he did re-think it and considered it not a good idea, it's pretty shitty to not inform the guy and leave him hanging, trudging out to the mailbox every day with ever diminishing hope the needed check would arrive.
   1633. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5559082)
A 1979! sighting, in the wild... looks like the author thinks The Decline might be because taxes are too low on the middle class. Hmm. Not sure I agree with that.
Middle-class tax burdens are at historic lows. The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2016 that the average federal income tax rate for the middle class — here meaning the middle 60 percent of the income distribution — declined from 7.8 percent in 1979 to 3.4 percent in 2013. Focusing on all federal taxes (not just income taxes), the average tax rate dropped from 19.2 to 13.8 percent over the same period. With these lower tax rates, the share of taxes paid by the middle class has also declined. The middle class paid 35 percent of income taxes in 1979 but only 16 percent in 2013, while its share of all federal taxes fell from 43 to 30 percent.
...
How did we get here? To be sure, some of the decline in middle-class tax burdens results from its declining fortunes. The middle 60 percent of households accounted for 49 percent of all pre-tax income in 1979 but only 43.4 percent in 2013. Meanwhile, the share of pre-tax income going to the top 1 percent increased from 8.9 to 15 percent. Even without changes in the tax code, such skewed income growth would have reduced the middle-class share of taxes paid.
   1634. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5559083)
Ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

Me neither.
LOL. Sure, but I guess when the argument is down to whether this single malt is better than that single malt, it's fruitless. It's when the claim is that Dewar's, or Southern Comfort, or Mad Dog 20/20 is single malt that I have an issue :) YMMV; carry on if you wish.
   1635. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5559084)
First, there's no evidence he "rethought" anything.


Oh, that's right -- he doesn't think. How could anyone forget that? Have you deduced whether Trump actually has a brain?

Second, buyer's remorse would not actually be a valid excuse for welching.


It's not buyer's remorse because ... wait for it ... he didn't buy anything. At most, it would be gifter's remorse and since the promise of a gift isn't enforceable, as an agreement to purchase is, the analogy melts down like a bad souffle.

   1636. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5559085)
So, to recap, Trump claimed that he called the families of fallen solders, and when WaPo went to look for families of fallen soldiers Trump had called, they... found some such families, including this father, who confirmed that Trump had indeed called him.

And others that said he hadn't; you conveniently leave that part out. NTTAWWT, except that he had just gotten finished bragging about he always did it unlike all his bum predecessors.


I didn't conveniently leave that part out. See the word "some" above?

I didn't follow this sidebar so I don't know if he said "all." I was going off of the summary in the post I was responding to, which was not that he said he had called "all" families, but that he said he called families "when it's appropriate":

So to recap this week in Trumpworld:

On Monday, Trump was asked why he hadn’t commented on an ambush in Niger that claimed the lives of 4 Green Berets 12 days earlier*. In his response**, he claimed he called the families of fallen soldiers “when it’s appropriate” and “If you look at President Obama and other presidents, most of them didn't make calls — a lot of them didn't make calls.”***
   1637. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5559086)
I'm about to get on a plane,

full disclosure have not watched or read this, but here's some dispute of Kelly's objective truth.


Does anyone seriously think that Kelly's likely to do anything more about Trump than occasionally criticize him behind his back while serving as an apologist for him in public?

If anything's clear from Kelly's performance up to now, including his latest lying comments about Frederica Wilson, it's that he's on board with all of Trump's policy positions and above all else he cherishes his job. As is the case with nearly all of Trump's other Republican critics, his objections seem solely directed at Trump's style rather than his substance.
   1638. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5559089)
he claimed he called the families of fallen soldiers “when it’s appropriate”
And everyone trusts the #####-Grabber-In-Chief as the arbiter of "appropriate". I kid, I kid.

The original question was “Why haven’t we heard anything from you so far about the soldiers that were killed in Niger? And what do you have to say about that?” To some, that is a request for details about the attack itself. For whatever reason, Trump *CHOSE* to make it about notifications, and then *CHOSE* to make the notifications of fallen soldiers yet another political competition he needed to present himself as winning, taking a gratuitous swipe at his predecessors in the process. THAT is what the "entire dustup" is about.

   1639. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5559090)
Does anyone seriously think that Kelly's likely to do anything more about Trump than occasionally criticize him behind his back while serving as an apologist for him in public?

If anything's clear from Kelly's performance up to now, including his latest lying comments about Frederica Wilson


Right, we get it, Andy. When Kelly criticizes Trump, he's telling the truth. When Kelly defends Trump, he's lying.

Whatever makes the derangement go down smoother.
   1640. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5559091)
full disclosure have not watched or read this, but here's some dispute of Kelly's objective truth.


Pretty sure this is how you officially get initiated into the Trump Gang.... or maybe it's the first step in the initiation process.

Make a false claim. Video/audio surfaces showing the claim was clearly false. Let Spicey/now girl-Spicey handle the double-down insisting it's still true even though it's not. I believe the final step to earn the gold T badge would be for Kelly to now do a tweet storm... or maybe talk to Alex Jones about doctored video or something.
   1641. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5559095)
1597

You're either a jackass or a moron. Or both. The post I read and responded to was 1559, which came before all of those.


I ain't no moron. I might be a jackass. And would it be such an effort to read on before replying? Y'know, saving it for later?
   1642. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5559099)
Rickey, #1623:
Ray is obtuse and adamant in his refusal to see anything other than what he wants to see, but he's not usually this level of bad. This is SBB level.


Trump's presidency hasn't been hard only on his detractors. "In for a penny, in for a pound, in for the ten-year GDP of Great Britain."

The same self-negating bunker mentality was common in 1973-74.
   1643. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5559100)
The original question was “Why haven’t we heard anything from you so far about the soldiers that were killed in Niger? And what do you have to say about that?” To some, that is a request for details about the attack itself. For whatever reason, Trump *CHOSE* to make it about notifications, and then *CHOSE* to make the notifications of fallen soldiers yet another political competition he needed to present himself as winning, taking a gratuitous swipe at his predecessors in the process. THAT is what the "entire dustup" is about.


Yup.

It's somewhat ironic that this would actually be an appropriate and potentially useful time to whip out some Renaissance Man Dilbert, because there is probably a better case to be made here than most of the other times it's been made that Trump ingenuously changed the conversation.

Of course, it's a pretty obvious exercise left to the reader to understand why the Trumpkins chose to fight to the death on the ground Dear Leader chose rather than whipping out the tired trope that would actually, potentially have some applicability here.
   1644. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5559102)
The original question was “Why haven’t we heard anything from you so far about the soldiers that were killed in Niger? And what do you have to say about that?” To some, that is a request for details about the attack itself. For whatever reason, Trump *CHOSE* to make it about notifications


Pretty sure you don't want to here Trump try to pronounce Niger, anyway.
   1645. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5559104)
If anything's clear from Kelly's performance up to now, including his latest lying comments about Frederica Wilson
"Well, some people told me that's what she said, I don't know. Ask them."
   1646. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5559107)
Now -- was WaPo then satisfied reporting that and ending the story there? No, the story became that Trump was an a^^hole. Because he hadn't yet gotten around to handing a grieving military father $25,000.

You really don't grasp the function of journalism, do you?


The National Enquirer-combined-with-DailyKos approach to journalism that WaPo has adopted isn't "journalism" as it was traditionally thought of.
   1647. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5559109)
And BTW, Ray, thanks for 1597. Now I'm really part of the OTP family!
   1648. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5559111)
The National Enquirer-combined-with-DailyKos approach to journalism that WaPo has adopted isn't "journalism" as it was traditionally thought of.


It's Journalism for The Decline, through and through. The decline of institutions like the NYT and the Post has more than a little whiff of the tragic to it.
   1649. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5559112)
You really don't grasp the function of journalism, do you?

The National Enquirer-combined-with-DailyKos approach to journalism that WaPo has adopted isn't "journalism" as it was traditionally thought of.
So... that's a "no," then.
   1650. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5559113)
The National Enquirer-combined-with-DailyKos approach to journalism that WaPo has adopted isn't "journalism" as it was traditionally thought of.


It's not journalism to expose the President when he lies?

Richard Nixon, is that you?
   1651. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5559115)
57 States

A verbal typo which Obama opponents used for years as a cudgel to bludgeon him with Beavis and Butthead style. "Huh, huh, huh. Obama's so stupid. He thinks there are 57 states in the US. Huh, huh, huh."

The nuttier ones claimed it was a secret code, talking about the 57 Islamic states.

if you never commented on it, fine, I apologize. But plenty of others here did, for years.


Find anything from me where I called Obama stupid for saying this, or anything of that nature. Any comment I made on this was to the effect of "Obviously a brain cramp probably because he was tired, but if Bush had said anything about that the left would have jumped on him."
   1652. PepTech Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5559116)
Ray, if you've responded to 1574 I haven't seen it. Why do you persist in railing against things that other posters aren't actually doing?
   1653. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:45 PM (#5559120)
The National Enquirer-combined-with-DailyKos approach to journalism that WaPo has adopted isn't "journalism" as it was traditionally thought of.


Real journalists fellate Dear Uncle's fetid children and give true patriots updates on our next Glorious Leader's mighty offspring.
   1654. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5559121)
I ain't no moron. I might be a jackass. And would it be such an effort to read on before replying? Y'know, saving it for later?


I don't do that. I reply to posts as I see them.
   1655. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5559123)
Real journalists fellate Dear Uncle's fetid children and give true patriots updates on our next Glorious Leader's mighty offspring.


Fox "News" is also a symptom of the Decline, if not a direct cause.

It's not really that hard to understand that modern communications have increased the plausible shelf space for "journalism" by about eleventy-billion fold, thus leading to the debasement (*) of journalism ... is it?

(*) Or, at the very least, a massive change in the definition.
   1656. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5559124)
I don't do that. I reply to posts as I see them.


And assiduously avoid noting if it's addressed in the lag time in between.
   1657. Traderdave Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5559125)

Pretty sure you don't want to here Trump try to pronounce Niger, anyway.


I'd be willing to bet Trump had never heard of Niger until this event.
   1658. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5559128)
And assiduously avoid noting if it's addressed in the lag time in between.


Cokes to others for pointing out that Sam hadn't read the story he was commenting on.
   1659. Traderdave Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5559130)
I reply to posts as I see them


You never replied when I challenged your BS that "welfare" was the main cause of your tax bill. I even gave you several links of evidence, you didn't respond.

Feel free to now, though.
   1660. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5559131)
All things told, there's simply no question that the old institutional system of talented, reasonably objective editors and publishers curating news published on a necessarily deliberative time clock was a far more advantageous institutional system than we have today. It's barely debatable.

Trump Derangement Syndrome wouldn't even be possible, at least in its more advanced stages, without the collapse of that institutional system -- any more than a kid in Michigan could suffer pre-Decline from Vancouver Canucks or San Diego Padres Derangement Syndrome.
   1661. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5559133)
1654

I don't do that. I reply to posts as I see them.


Gotcha. That's actually valid. I usually save it up, in case I'm being redundant or I get new info in the meantime.
   1662. Morty Causa Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5559134)
British dental standards

Obligatory

I'm surprised this wasn't The Big Book of British Smiles from The Simpsons.
   1663. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5559136)
Cokes to others for pointing out that Sam hadn't read the story he was commenting on.


And yet still manages to have a better understanding of the facts than you, who I'm sure doesn't actually care.
   1664. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5559138)
I'm surprised this wasn't The Big Book of British Smiles from The Simpsons.


WHY MUST YOU TURN MY OFFICE INTO A HOUSE OF LIES?!?!?

See #1516
   1665. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5559143)
Georgia lawmaker, wife of Tom Price, suggests people with HIV could be quarantined

“I don’t want to say the quarantine word — but I guess I just said it,” Price said to Dr. Pascale Wortley, director of the Georgia Department of Public Health’s HIV epidemiology section. “Is there an ability, since I would guess that public dollars are expended heavily in prophylaxis and treatment of this condition, so we have a public interest in curtailing the spread. … Are there any methods legally that we could do that would curtail the spread?”

...

“It’s almost frightening the number of people who are living that are … carriers with the potential to spread,” Price said during the hearing. “Whereas in the past, they died more readily, and then at that point, they’re not posing a risk. So we’ve got a huge population posing a risk if they’re not in treatment.”
   1666. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5559150)
If ignorance is bliss, this woman must be ecstatic...
   1667. Morty Causa Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5559153)
1664:

Thanks. I missed it. What the neverending merry-go-round with Rain Man Ray, my powers of concentration aren't what they should be.

People, are you really getting something out of these exchanges with Ray? Really?
   1668. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:22 PM (#5559158)
People, are you really getting something out of these exchanges with Ray? Really?


Kind of amazing that at this late date this question still gets asked ... over and over and over again.

Nineteen seventy-three Americans, are you really getting something out of all these viewings of All in the Family?????
   1669. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5559164)
If ignorance is bliss, this woman must be ecstatic...


That's the wife of Tom Price, who was the current regime's preferred pick for Secretary of Health and Human Services.
   1670. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5559165)
1669

If ignorance is bliss, this woman must be ecstatic...


That's the wife of Tom Price, who was the current regime's preferred pick for Secretary of Health and Human Services.


Yep. I stand by my comment.
   1671. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5559167)
there's simply no question that the old institutional system of talented, reasonably objective editors and publishers curating news published on a necessarily deliberative time clock was a far more advantageous institutional system than we have today. It's barely debatable.

Trump Derangement Syndrome wouldn't even be possible, at least in its more advanced stages, without the collapse of that institutional system


I'm imagining Sugar Bear in 1973 explaining how, back in the days of William Randolph Hearst, Nixon Derangement Syndrome would have been impossible :-D
   1672. BrianBrianson Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5559170)
The number of people with HIV/AIDS in the United States is comparable to the population of Hawaii.

Hawaii was a popular leper colony.
   1673. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5559173)
The number of people with HIV/AIDS in the United States is comparable to the population of Hawaii.

Hawaii was a popular leper colony.
Puerto Rico is probably better suited as a destination, though. They'd die more readily there.
   1674. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5559178)
People, are you really getting something out of these exchanges with Ray? Really?

Hey, for most of them it beats contemplating that their team won't be heard from again until Spring training, and they need something to get their minds off it. Just think of Ray as the clueless manager who keeps getting contract extensions and is hosting his own call-in show.
   1675. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5559184)
“If you want to go after General Kelly that’s up to you but i think that that … if you want to get into a debate with a Four Star Marine General I think that that’s something highly inappropriate.”

- Girl Spicey, in response to a reporter's question about the now available video of Wilson not saying what Kelly claimed she said regarding the Miami FBI building ribbon cutting

Well... glad we've got that settled. I suppose if you can't just revoke licenses, maybe you just 4 star marine generals in front of the camera and everybody can just STFU like good little Dear Leader subjects.

   1676. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5559185)
*Kelly says Wilson said something.
*But she didn't.

This sort of deranged timeline is a further indication of obsessive mania.
   1677. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5559189)
4 star marine generals


Genuflect when you say that son.

The fetishization of the military is DEFINITELY a sign of the decline.
   1678. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:12 PM (#5559190)
The trump military family fiction has become as bad as the loons who blamed Hillary for Four Dead Americans.
   1679. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:12 PM (#5559191)
The Great Pumpkin, not content to merely contain his dizzying intellect within our own borders, has cast his gaze, Eye-of-Sauron like, across the Great Pond:


Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

Just out report: "United Kingdom crime rises 13% annually amid spread of Radical Islamic terror." Not good, we must keep America safe!
October 20, 2017


From The Graun:


What about the facts? Well, Trump got the 13% right, which is the increase in police-recorded crime over the 12 months to June. However, a second yardstick, the Crime Survey of England and Wales, showed a 9% fall, but that excluded online crime.

Perhaps the more reliable figure is the 19% increase in violent crime recorded by the police over the past year, including an 8% increase in the underlying murder rate.

What do the statisticians say about what lies behind this accelerating increase in crime in England and Wales? “The 13% increase in police recorded crime from the previous year reflects a range of factors including continuing improvements to crime recording and genuine increases in some crime categories, especially in those that are well-recorded,” say the UK’s Office for National Statistics.

So the increasing pace of terror attacks in England this year is not the cause? No, the ONS does not say that the attacks, let alone radical Islam, are among the causes of rising crime. Indeed, they go further and explicitly exclude the 35 victims of the Manchester and London terror attacks from the official homicide count for the year.

They report that the number of homicides in England and Wales jumped by 46 victims to 629 – a rise of 8%. In British terms this is a worrying trend and put alongside a 26% increase in knife crime and 27% increase in gun crime amounts to an issue that the prime minister, let alone the home secretary, ought to be alarmed about.
   1680. simon bedford Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5559195)
For some context there were 762 homicides in Chicago in 2016.
   1681. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5559196)
The trump military family fiction has become as bad as the loons who blamed Hillary for Four Dead Americans

I doubt this, if only because Trump will do something more offensive tomorrow, and these phone-call flaps will just join the backlist. Meanwhile there will be diehard rightists well into the next half-century still outraged that they didn't Lock Her Up.
   1682. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5559197)
What about the facts? Well, Trump got the 13% right, which is the increase in police-recorded crime over the 12 months to June.


At that point, one can effectively and efficiently stop reading, and move on to other more useful endeavors.

Or one can be deranged.

I'll go with Door #1.

   1683. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5559199)
At that point, one can effectively and efficiently stop reading, and move on to other more useful endeavors.
Like catching a flight to Bedminster for the weekend. That golf course isn't going to play itself.
   1684. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5559204)
Like catching a flight to Bedminster for the weekend. That golf course isn't going to play itself.


Let's see:

Playing golf at a nice course on the weekend, or engaging in other unplugged leisure of one's choice versus ....

Spending the weekend surfing the internet and twitter cobbling together a timeline and outline "proving" definitively that Trump "lied" about UK crime rates in a tweet.

The choice is obvious, right?
   1685. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:32 PM (#5559207)
Kelly has gone from not wanting to publicize his son's death to have it whipped out daily as get-out-of question free card by his boss and his boss's comm lackeys.

I honestly and truly feel bad for the guy because that's gotta be the kind of thing that leaves you feeling so dirty, you could spend every waking hour not in the office in a shower and it ain't washing off.

Still, my sympathy only extends so far -- because he alone could a put a stop to it... and I'm even talking about quitting or even alluding publicly. Seems me that a private STFU to his boss, girl spicey, etc along the lines of "knock it off or I'll quit and very clear about why I quit if you don't". If his boss and boss's lackeys cannot manage a simple "we've got no further comment"- regardless of how many times the questions keep getting asked, then there has to come a point the choice is his if he wants to keep being trotted out as a show piece. And for the record, yes - if Johnson's family wants to issue the same to Wilson, then she ought to do the same (if not do the same regardless - but the imbroglio seems to have moved on, from her end, to Kelly's lie about a speech).
   1686. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5559208)
I'll go with Door #1.


You always do... it's the one with the orange glory hole.
   1687. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5559209)
Playing golf at a nice course on the weekend, or engaging in other unplugged leisure of one's choice versus ....

Spending the weekend surfing the internet and twitter cobbling together a timeline "proving" definitively that Trump "lied" about UK crime rates in a tweet.
Surfing the internet and twittering would be a weird thing for a sitting President to do, so I guess if it's a choice between the two, he should do the former.
   1688. BrianBrianson Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5559214)
At that point, one can effectively and efficiently stop reading, and move on to other more useful endeavors.


Even at the most generous schools, getting 1/3rd of your claim right isn't a passing grade.
   1689. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5559218)
I honestly and truly feel bad for the guy because that's gotta be the kind of thing that leaves you feeling so dirty, you could spend every waking hour not in the office in a shower and it ain't washing off.

Still, my sympathy only extends so far -- because he alone could a put a stop to it...


What you just wrote could be applied to the 90% of Republican officeholders who are scared to death of Trump's hardcore base, and / or who themselves buy into that base's favored Scrooge McArpaio policies. Maybe they're saving their criticism for their memoirs.
   1690. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: October 20, 2017 at 04:51 PM (#5559223)
Fake News! Ooops, I mean, Fake Art!
   1691. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 20, 2017 at 05:03 PM (#5559230)
What about the facts? Well, Trump got the 13% right, which is the increase in police-recorded crime over the 12 months to June.


At that point, one can effectively and efficiently stop reading, and move on to other more useful endeavors.


So, if Theresa May tweets "The UK crime rate has gone up 13% amid the realization that the President of the US is a narcicistic man-baby who poops his pants." is equally not worth further comment, right? Because neither May's editorial comment nor Trump's have anything to do with the rise in crime.
   1692. Ishmael Posted: October 20, 2017 at 06:08 PM (#5559249)
Omineca Greg:
I'll resist the urge to say "Do God Told Nicodemus! Do God Told Nicodemus!"

I missed this earlier.

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I recently read this bit about John 3 from Bart Ehrman's Jesus, Interrupted (p155)

In the Gospel of John, chapter 3, Jesus has a famous conversation with Nicodemus in which he says, “You must be born again.” The Greek word translated “again” actually has two meanings: it can mean not only “a second time” but also “from above.” Whenever it is used elsewhere in John, it means “from above” (John 19:11, 23). That is what Jesus appears to mean in John 3 when he speaks with Nicodemus: a person must be born from above in order to have eternal life in heaven above. Nicodemus misunderstands, though, and thinks Jesus intends the other meaning of the word, that he has to be born a second time. “How can I crawl back into my mother’s womb?” he asks, out of some frustration. Jesus corrects him: he is not talking about a second physical birth, but a heavenly birth, from above. This conversation with Nicodemus is predicated on the circumstance that a certain Greek word has two meanings (a double entendre). Absent the double entendre, the conversation makes little sense. The problem is this: Jesus and this Jewish leader in Jerusalem would not have been speaking Greek, but Aramaic. But the Aramaic word for “from above” does not also mean “second time.” This is a double entendre that works only in Greek. So it looks as though this conversation could not have happened—at least not as it is described in the Gospel of John.

I don't think Ehrman's argument is a knockdown case against authenticity, it's only an argument against a word for word transmission of the conversation. And I think I've heard that the posited underlying Aramaic might have a meaning that is at least plausible as a metaphorical double meaning ("from the head" rather than "from above" or something like that). But you don't need the Greek pun to make the case that this episode is a Johannine invention. For one thing there appear to be no other characters present, so how does the author know what Jesus and Nicodemus were talking about?

I think the import of Ehrman's double entendre is really one that's familiar from gnostic literature. John's Jesus is a revealer of hidden meaning, accessible only by the elect. Those incapable of accessing the true knowledge, the hylics and the psychikoi, like Nicodemus in this dialogue, are stuck on the surface meanings. The elect get to the real truth, which is (eventually) to be awakened to their status as carriers of the light, sparks of the divine pleroma, in the gnostic understanding.

It's realized eschatology. In John, the Kingdom of God isn't soon-coming, it's "not of this world" (18:36) and you get there not after the final judgment, but by a new birth from heaven (as Ehrman has it). That's available now, for the seekers of knowledge. As is eternal life, of course. Not after death, but after re-birth. Think about when Jesus quotes Ian Brown to Martha in John 11:23-6:

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

Martha believes in the general resurrection, just like Nicodemus believes Jesus is a teacher of God. It's the second level of meaning that they aren't ready for, the really weird stuff.

The gnostic narrative is probably not mature yet in the Johannine literature. But passages like John 3 are fertile soil for Christian gnosticism, and also for what would become sacramentalism and later of course for born-again Christianity. It's heavy with ontological potential, basically. I think you can see how we can get from John 3 to something like this passage (although really the whole thing) from the Nag Hammadi text Dialogue of the Saviour:

If one does not stand in the darkness, he will not be able to see the light. If one does not understand how fire came into existence, he will burn in it, because he does not know the root of it. If one does not first understand water, he knows nothing. For what use is there for him to be baptized in it? If one does not understand how blowing wind came into existence, he will blow away with it. If one does not understand how body, which he bears, came into existence, he will perish with it. And how will someone who does not know the Son know the Father? And to someone who will not know the root of all things, they remain hidden.

Incidentally, speaking of lost scriptures, in JH Hunter's novel The Mystery of Mar Saba a scrap of parchment called the Shred of Nicodemus is found, in which Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea (of whom Nicodemus is sort of a double) describe removing the body of Jesus from the tomb. It was apparently part of the inspiration for Morton Smith's Secret Gospel of Mark forgery.

And Nicodemus has an apocryphal Gospel of his own, a part of which has the Harrowing of Hell narrative that made its way into orthodox tradition, and includes all sorts of other interesting marginalia (the names of the thieves crucified alongside Jesus, Dismas (or Dimas) and Gestas; and of the Centurion present at the passion, Longinus).
   1693. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 20, 2017 at 07:32 PM (#5559270)
I've been at a conference the last couple of days, making clinical trials great again and all, so I don't know if you rubes got around to discussing this yet. a curious thing to issue on a Friday afternoon.
   1694. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 20, 2017 at 07:41 PM (#5559271)
This is what you get when you diss Trump in front of the white house press Corp dinner guests.
   1695. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: October 20, 2017 at 07:45 PM (#5559272)
I don't know if you rubes got around to discussing this yet. a curious thing to issue on a Friday afternoon.

See you, Misirlou. Have fun in Niger.
   1696. Srul Itza Posted: October 20, 2017 at 07:47 PM (#5559273)
Hawaii was a popular leper colony.


Not exactly.

People with Hansen's disease were exiled to the Kalaupapa area on Molokai. It was his care of these unfortunate people that garnered a sainthood for Father Damien, who himself eventually succumbed to the disease.

The practice of exiling was stopped when the disease was more fully understood and the cure was widely available, although there are a handful of people who are living out the remainder of their lives at the Kalaupapa National Historic Monument.
   1697. BDC Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:55 PM (#5559301)
don't know if you rubes got around to discussing this yet

Aside from ordering Misirlou to Niger, I don't really understand the significance of the executive order. Translation from administrativese would be gratefully accepted.

CoB and maybe others had asked if I could send periodic updates on BDC Jr, who was ordered by Trump or Andrew Cuomo or both to proceed, thankfully not to Niger, but to Puerto Rico. He got there today, after three weeks on the mainland, loading various equipment onto planes and ships. He is a "vertical engineer" and is likely to be in PR for a few weeks building facilities for the next wave of relief personnel.
   1698. Howie Menckel Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:03 PM (#5559308)
Should also note, there is a very nice story about a call to another widow that went much better on the front page of the WaPo now.

I heard a plausible widow on Hannity the other day who said that Trump was extraordinarily gracious to her and her family and other guests earlier this year. She said he told the staff, "The White House is their house tonight," and that her kids got to play in the White House theater.

the non-extreme analysis is always more interesting. a couple of years ago, WaPo and someone else did similar stories on what it was like for female executives to work for Trump for the past 30 years. there were plenty of no-doubt-accurate comments about his vulgar maneuvers.

but several of them also said they'd much rather get the occasional out-of-line comment from a CEO who would not hesitate to appoint them to very high-ranking positions compared to the usual, other alternative in Fortune 500 companies - all the male bosses have great decorum, but they have far less interest in promoting qualified women up the ladder.

obviously, neither working environment is acceptable.
   1699. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:05 PM (#5559311)
BDC.... I had to Google it myself and go to its WIKI. The pertinent part, to me, was that it undid an Obama order.

It attempts to limit access to Presidential records, citing national security concerns, namely, that we're under imminent threat of a terrorist attack. Or a missile attack from NK.
   1700. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:47 PM (#5559347)
1700!
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