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Monday, October 16, 2017

OTP 16 October 2017: Sorry, Yankee fans: Trump’s claim that he can ensure victory simply isn’t true

As is sometimes the case with Trump’s tweet’s, his claims don’t hold up. We identified 14 games that Trump has attended since 1988, including two preseason games and the game above. Of those 14 games, the Yankees won eight and lost six — 57 percent of the time during seasons when the Yankees won 60 percent of their games overall.

In other words — Trump might be a jinx.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2017 at 07:49 AM | 1967 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, playoffs, politics, yankees

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   501. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5555922)
I'm just pointing out that by his critics' own admission he sort of walked it back (in the same press conference, even?). But go ahead, Be Outraged.

"Sort of" is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence.

"Ray is a child molester."
"No, he isn't."
"Well, I don't know. All I can tell you is that this is what people have told me."


The "sort of" was not my characterization; it was Preserved Fish's. And in 346 I said "if" he sort of walked it back. This was the exchange:

345. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5555637)

You can troll better than that, SBB. He explicitly did say it - "The traditional way, if you look at President Obama and other presidents ― most of them didn’t make calls" - and then sort of walked it back.

346. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5555644)

You can troll better than that, SBB. He explicitly did say it - "The traditional way, if you look at President Obama and other presidents ― most of them didn’t make calls" - and then sort of walked it back.

I haven't been following this latest Outrage of the Hour. But if he sort of walked it back... maybe it's time to move on.


If you have a problem with the "sort of walked it back," take it up with Preserved Fish. I was assuming arguendo that if Preserved Fish's characterization of it was correct that Trump had sort of walked it back, and said, well, if that's the case, maybe it's time to move on.

If you don't want to move on, don't.

If Trump didn't sort of walk it back, he didn't. Or if he did but he's walking back the walk back, obsess over that.

Either way there's nothing for me to move on from because I had never stopped on this hill to begin with. If folks want to obsess over this, go right ahead.
   502. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5555923)
Divisive!


I said the act, not the words. Although the words don't tell the full truth of the situation either.
   503. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5555924)
Why are you calling me out? I didn't defend Trump on this issue, I haven't followed it, and I don't care about it.


Whether you consider it a defense ot not is immaterial. But you gave full throated support to the false notion that he walked back the original statement and thus by implication Trump did no wrong and those pointing it out are the deranged ones.
   504. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5555925)
The point of politics is not to win. The point of politics is to enact your preferred policy positions. Winning is a means to doing that. Certainly, to do that you need to win, but if in order to win, you need to abandon your preferred policy positions, then you haven't really won, have you?


I want the Cubs to win the NLCS, but it appears I might have to root for the Dodgers because that appears to be the winning play.
   505. PepTech Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5555926)
Right, but walking back a statement usually doesn't involve bringing in third parties to back up your original statement.
I completely agree. The assertion that Trump has "walked back" his unsubstantiated smear is, ah, counter to sanity.

Trump truly has successfully normalized lying. His supporters, or defenders, or whatever, simply don't care - it's just Trump being Trump, and the American public deserve his "leadership" as their due for their sins.

But anyone else, either a public speaker of some kind, or message board poster, is held to much higher standards of "truth" and "accuracy". It's quite interesting.
   506. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5555927)
Whether you consider it a defense ot not is immaterial. But you gave full throated support to the false notion that he walked back the original statement


Oh, dear. Citation, please?
   507. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5555929)
Trump said in a radio interview with WMAL in Washington that “people have to be careful because at some point I fight back.” The president added “I’m being very, very nice but at some point I fight back and it won’t be pretty.”
Trump is a bully, which means he is a coward. He has never "fought back" in his life, unless one considers insulting one's enemies over the Internet to be "fighting."
   508. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5555931)
unless one considers insulting one's enemies over the Internet to be "fighting."


Why wouldn't that be?
   509. Omineca Greg Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5555932)
Well, a big day on my life...

They announced the product line-up for British Columbia Liquor Stores' "2017 Premium Spirit Release", all to be available Nov 4th.

I'll give the link to the flipbook (give it a second to load, it's a government site).

If you have an interest in fine spirits, you may have an interesting 10 minutes reading it.

If you want to see how a fully government controlled liquor market affects prices, you may also find it interesting, but it won't take 10 minutes before the sticker shock sets in. Actually, I only have a little knowledge of what the going rates are in The Land Of The Free (that wouldn't be here).

All prices have 13% tax on top of the prices you see. But the prices are in CAD, so you have to adjust for that too..

E H Taylor Single Barrel $94.99
Sazerac 18 Year Old Kentucky Straight Rye $169.99
Wild Turkey Master's Keep Decades $225
Old Pulteney 21 Year Old $254.99

The expensive (which in this context means over $150) one I'd really like to try is Appleton Estate Joy. Supposed to be awesome! $299 CAD. US retail is $250, so if people actually ever pay retail, we're not getting hosed that badly.
   510. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5555933)
But you gave full throated support to the false notion that he walked back the original statement


Not only did he walk it back, he never made the "original statement" in the first place.

And now this will indeed be my final comment on this linguistic circle jerk. If you and yours want to continue echo chamber jerking yourselves about it, stay calm and carry on. I won't disturb you.
   511. The Good Face Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5555934)
WTF politician with more than 30 people listening has EVER used the cis- terminology?


Did I claim that one did? I was lamenting Trump's failure to do so, because harping on and on about the iniquitous evils of cishet white men is totally the opposite of divisiveness.
   512. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5555937)
The whole silly decline theory is completely backwards. It starts with the final result - "We are in decline!" - and then works back from there, cherry picky stats and evidence along the way in order to support the already decided upon conclusion. It is as valid as the old guy talking about how kids in his day were much tougher and more independent. Even if true - a doubtful outcome - it starts with the assumption that the qualities of the past are better than those of the present, and since the past is more like the past than the present is, the past is better!

There's an interesting discussion that could be had about whether Americans are better off now than they were at some Pick Your Favorite Year in the Past. The problem is that for the discussion to be even semi-intelligent we'd have to acknowledge that it's a mixed bag, and the answer largely depends on which Americans you're talking about, and how you rank your measuring criteria.

For example, how do you factor in knowing your neighbors, and how does that measure up against not having your neighbors know everything about you?

It's a bit like asking the same question about baseball: Does the improvement in the game on the field outweigh the knowledge that you can decide to go to virtually any game on the spur of the moment, and still be able to get a good seat in the lower deck for a price that barely registers on your financial radar? It comes down to individual perspectives that often can't be quantified.

That doesn't mean that you can't weigh all these factors and come up with an overall judgment about whether we're better off or worse off than we were in 1955 or 1965 or 1979 or 1998 or 2006, but reducing "better" to one or two metrics while ignoring the rest is kind of avoiding the question.
   513. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5555939)
Poor Trump. Can't fire the Senate. Can't stiff them and dare them to sue.

Yes. That's why some of us shrugged before the election, noting that he could never be a dictator even if he wanted to be.
There's dumb arguments and there are really dumb arguments and then there's really really dumb arguments, and then there's this argument. Hint: dictators aren't bound by rules. Saying that the rules prevent someone from doing dictatorial things, and therefore someone can't become a dictator, makes the old RossCW posts look Einsteinian by comparison.
   514. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5555940)
Oh, dear. Citation, please?


You are constantly belittling Trump critic here, and throwing around phrases like "Outrage of the hour" and "move on to the next outrage" are one of your favotite tools. Belittling Trump's critis IS defending him, whether you admit it or not. You've done it so often, that when you don't intend to defend Trump, that's what people hear.
   515. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5555941)
idea that crept into that orange head.
Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.
   516. Shredder Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5555945)
I want the Cubs to win the NLCS, but it appears I might have to root for the Dodgers because that appears to be the winning play.
This is basically Clapper in a nutshell. He roots for Team R, regardless of how they're trying to screw anyone over at any given time. Some people, like me for example, root for outcomes, and the outcomes I want are generally favored by Democrats. If Democrats suddenly decided that we needed to scrap health insurance all together, reduce the income tax on millionaires to zero, and spend 95% of the budget on the military, I would no longer vote for Democrats. Meanwhile, all Clapper cares about are Ws for his beloved Team R! Woohoo, go team!
   517. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5555946)
full throated support


It was more like like a sigh than a yell, really.
   518. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5555948)
The whole silly decline theory is completely backwards. It starts with the final result - "We are in decline!" - and then works back from there, cherry picky stats and evidence along the way in order to support the already decided upon conclusion. It is as valid as the old guy talking about how kids in his day were much tougher and more independent. Even if true - a doubtful outcome - it starts with the assumption that the qualities of the past are better than those of the present, and since the past is more like the past than the present is, the past is better!

A proper argument would start with a hypothesis and actual metrics that could be used as a useful measure as well as a narrative to tie those metrics to the larger point. However, that will never, ever happen here.


Actually, it's happened over and over here. I've delineated both the hypothesis and the actual metrics. More than once, even.
   519. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5555949)
You are constantly belittling Trump critic here, and throwing around phrases like "Outrage of the hour" and "move on to the next outrage" are one of your favotite tools. Belittling Trump's critis IS defending him, whether you admit it or not. You've done it so often, that when you don't intend to defend Trump, that's what people hear.


Shorter Misirlou: No, I don't have a cite for you giving "full throated support to the false notion that he walked back the original statement."

(Or, to be more helpful: I think you're confusing me with someone else.)
   520. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5555952)
The point of politics is not to win. The point of politics is to enact your preferred policy positions. Winning is a means to doing that. Certainly, to do that you need to win, but if in order to win, you need to abandon your preferred policy positions, then you haven't really won, have you?


I don't agree with your definition of winning, or rather I think getting as much of your policy positions in place is winning in politics. I mean the GOP, and even more so Trump, has defined winning differently, but I don't agree with them. A compromise where both sides get something is winning in my book.
   521. PepTech Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5555953)
I had not thought today was going to offer any surprises, but there you have it - Trump acts like a douche, and even his staunchest allies have washed their hands of it before noon PT.

Granted it's a stupid issue in the first place, and much more instructive as a generic example of Trump's douche-infused nature than any kind of policy statement. Still the group concession that Trump is a douche is accepted.
   522. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5555954)
unless one considers insulting one's enemies over the Internet to be "fighting."

Why wouldn't that be?
The answer to that question is left as an exercise to the reader.
   523. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5555956)
Belittling Trump's critis IS defending him, whether you admit it or not.


This doesn't get any more true on the five billionth and first repetition.

Trump's badness, such as it is, doesn't give his enemies license to say silly things and calling them out on them isn't remotely a "defense" of Trump.

I'm not sure why you think sane centrist non-tribalists are under some obligation to not call out the nutty left on their nuttiness because Trump. Where on Earth do you come up with that principle? Your entire premise is that one has to pick one of the nutjob tribes and if someone doesn't, they're defending the other tribe. What a load of primitive garbage. That's the kind of thing enemy factions in places like Colombia think -- though it is true that to date the tribes have not made non-tribal citizens pick a side at gunpoint. At least you have that going for you. So far, anyway.
   524. Satan Says Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5555958)
No wars so far for Trump. Good economy. Excellent use of trade policy that should bear good foreign policy AND economic fruit for years to come.

So what if he's an egotistical buffoon? Long history of that #### in the White House.
   525. The Good Face Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5555960)
E H Taylor Single Barrel $94.99
Sazerac 18 Year Old Kentucky Straight Rye $169.99
Wild Turkey Master's Keep Decades $225
Old Pulteney 21 Year Old $254.99


The prices for the E H Taylor lineup and the Pikesville Rye are preposterously high, but the fact you can, apparently, get access to the entire Buffalo Trace Antique Collection for approximately $200 a bottle in Canadian funny money is a pretty good deal. MRSP for those is ~$90 in the US, but you'd have to be incredibly lucky to find one on a liquor store shelf at all, let alone for anything close to MRSP.
   526. Satan Says Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5555962)
I suggest tuning out social media, but babies need their formula.
   527. Satan Says Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5555963)
I like whiskey, but you've got too much ashtray money if you go over $50 a fifth.
Suppose the expense adds to that special feeling she's all yours.
   528. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5555966)
Good economy.

Love that you think Trump has something to do with this, 9 months in.

EDIT: guess he erased that.
   529. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5555969)
Love that you think Trump has something to do with this, 9 months in.


Well whether he does or not, Presidents always get both more credit and blame on that issue (and most others). And as I linked to earlier today Trump so far is getting less credit than normal for the economy we have. If it goes south it will be interesting to see if he also escapes the blame for it, as he has "escaped" the credit. I doubt it strongly, but we shall likely see.
   530. Satan Says Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5555972)
Not that I agree with Shipman's take that candidates don't matter, but Trump will win again barring economic downturn.

Better pull for a recession, Democrats.
   531. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5555973)
Trump's badness, such as it is, doesn't give his enemies license to say silly things and calling them out on them isn't remotely a "defense" of Trump.


That would be true, if you didn't give Trump even more credit that the most generous possible interpretation of his statements and actions warrant each and every time. In your mind, you are merely pointing out that Trump is bad, but not as bad as you say, but the times you chose to defend it to the hilt are the times when almost every sane person agrees that "Yeah, he really did say or do that really bad thing."

Trump said Obama never called the families of KIA soldiers. When pressed, he said, "well, I don't know. Somebody told me that." To you, that's that. Nothing to see here. Would you ever in a million years, give a Clinton or Obama even 1% as generous an interpretation? Same with Charlottesville. Same with his twitter feud with Puerto Rico. And on and on. The answer is no.
   532. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5555974)
I like whiskey, but you've got too much ashtray money if you go over $50 a fifth.


Since we're talking about Canadian prices, those're 26ers, not fifths.
   533. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5555976)
Obamacare lives!! We are living a reality TV show. Clown show.
   534. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5555978)
The whole silly decline theory is completely backwards. It starts with the final result - "We are in decline!" - and then works back from there, cherry picky stats and evidence along the way in order to support the already decided upon conclusion. It is as valid as the old guy talking about how kids in his day were much tougher and more independent. Even if true - a doubtful outcome - it starts with the assumption that the qualities of the past are better than those of the present, and since the past is more like the past than the present is, the past is better!
Uh, you've just described every single one of SBB's positions.
   535. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5555979)
Better pull for a recession, Democrats.


No. That's the difference between us and the Clappers of the world. If it would have to take a wrecked economy to defeat Trump in 2020, put me on the Trump bandwagon. Again, like Shredder said, principles over laundry. I'm not a fan of "We need to destroy the village in order to save it."
   536. Shredder Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5555980)
To you, that's that. Nothing to see here. Would you ever in a million years, give a Clinton or Obama even 1% as generous an interpretation?
Remember when Clinton said "The Benghazi attack started because of a video", then later basically said "well, I don't know, somebody told me that", and Ray and others said "yeah, we're cool with that explanation". Seems like it was yesterday.
   537. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5555982)
That would be true, if you didn't give Trump even more credit that the most generous possible interpretation of his statements and actions warrant each and every time.


That's your bias and tribalism talking.

I hold tribalists to a high standard when they start blithering and blathering about the other tribe. That's all that's going on. Not because I "support" the other tribe, but because I support non-tribalism. There's a leftist tribe in the US that's gone all nutty in the past 10 months. That's an empirical reality, and important cultural fact. Therefore, I point it out.

Proudly guilty as charged.
   538. The Good Face Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5555983)
I like whiskey, but you've got too much ashtray money if you go over $50 a fifth.
Suppose the expense adds to that special feeling she's all yours.


Eh, for some of the whiskies in the BTAC, there simply aren't cheaper alternatives that are similar to those products. If you want a well aged, barrel proof wheated bourbon, you're shit outta luck unless you can find William Larue Weller. And while there are some high quality barrel proof ryes on the market, they tend to be as expensive as Thomas H Handy. Top notch ryes don't come cheap. On the other hand, there are a decent number of substitutes for George T Stagg that can be had for significantly less than $100, which makes paying the ~$600+ secondary market price kind of nuts in my opinion.
   539. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5555987)
Carter Page, we have a subpoena for you!
   540. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5555990)
This is basically Clapper in a nutshell. He roots for Team R, regardless of how they're trying to screw anyone over at any given time. Some people, like me for example, root for outcomes, and the outcomes I want are generally favored by Democrats. If Democrats suddenly decided that we needed to scrap health insurance all together, reduce the income tax on millionaires to zero, and spend 95% of the budget on the military, I would no longer vote for Democrats. Meanwhile, all Clapper cares about are Ws for his beloved Team R! Woohoo, go team!

Shredder apparently believes that his unabashed hyper-partisanship reflects a concern for the greater good, while those who disagree with him are just concerned with winning elections at all costs. Not sure why he gets to assume the moral high ground while his posts are filled with misstatements of fact, name-calling & insults, but such smug arrogance is common on the left.
   541. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5555991)
Good economy.

Love that you Trump has something to do with this.


I am more than happy to let Trumpkins give Trump whatever credit people wish for continuing the same level of economic job growth and expansion that began 6 years ago under Obama. The only proviso is that when #### hits the fan, they stick with paradigm of credit/blame....

Objectively, I think and have always thought that Presidents get too much credit and too much blame - that's not to say economic policies of an administration can't/don't have an impact, but the impact is something that usually requires years to manifest. Regardless, it is what it is - so as long as the rules don't change in either direction, I'm good with that.

Thinking that the era of Trump means an already extraordinarily long bull market continues forever, that trade wars aren't FIRST going to hit families at and below the median income level in purchasing power long before (never mind if) wages catch up, and that tax "reform" that seems most concerned with cutting the corporate rate is going to likewise translate into higher wages are all suckers bets.

But perros is a longtime sucker, he badly wants to make the bet, so what can you do besides take his action?
   542. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5555992)
Trump is a bully, which means he is a coward. He has never "fought back" in his life, unless one considers insulting one's enemies over the Internet to be "fighting."


His preferred form of "fighting" is to hide behind lawyers who threaten to bury any upstarts under a mountain of legal bills for their defense (also payable to fellow lawyers). That's how wealthy bullies like to handle things these days.
   543. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5555993)
That's your bias and tribalism talking.

How's that Hillary indictment coming?
   544. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:30 PM (#5555996)
That's your bias and tribalism talking.

How's that Hillary indictment coming?


Concession accepted.
   545. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5555999)
Uh, you've just described every single one of SBB's positions.


I will happily concede that. For some reason though his "Decline" theory seemingly has much more credibility here than most of his posts.

No. That's the difference between us and the Clappers of the world. If it would have to take a wrecked economy to defeat Trump in 2020, put me on the Trump bandwagon. Again, like Shredder said, principles over laundry. I'm not a fan of "We need to destroy the village in order to save it."


Yes. Fortunately I don't think it will take a full on melt down for Trump to fall in 2020. His act is not wearing well, and I don't think that changes. Also I think the economy is due for a correction (long overdue), and I would rather it be as mild a correction as possible if and when it comes.

If it does I will cheerfully allow GOP President Trump and the GOP House and GOP Senate to take any and all blame though.
   546. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5556000)
Concession accepted.

Heh. Perfect.
   547. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5556002)
Not sure why he gets to assume the moral high ground while his posts are filled with misstatements of fact, name-calling & insults, but such smug arrogance is common...


But enough about GOP President Trump.
   548. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5556004)
The Spurs' coach Gregg Popovich** on Trump's latest lying smear of Obama:

“I’ve been amazed and disappointed by so much of what this president had said, and his approach to running this country, which seems to be one of just a never ending divisiveness. But his comments today about those who have lost loved ones in times of war and his lies that previous presidents Obama and Bush never contacted their families are so beyond the pale, I almost don’t have the words.”

“This man in the Oval Office is a soulless coward who thinks that he can only become large by belittling others. This has of course been a common practice of his, but to do it in this manner—and to lie about how previous presidents responded to the deaths of soldiers—is as low as it gets. We have a pathological liar in the White House, unfit intellectually, emotionally, and psychologically to hold this office, and the whole world knows it, especially those around him every day. The people who work with this president should be ashamed, because they know better than anyone just how unfit he is, and yet they choose to do nothing about it. This is their shame most of all.”


** For anyone who thinks that Popovich is nothing but an effete Ivy League liberal, here's a bit of his background from wiki:

Popovich was born in East Chicago, Indiana on January 28, 1949, to a Serb father and Croat mother.[4] He started his basketball career playing Biddy Basketball and was on the 1960 Gary Biddy Basketball All-Star Team which finished third in the World Tournament, held at Gary's Memorial Auditorium. He attended Merrillville High School and graduated in 1970 from the United States Air Force Academy. He played basketball for four seasons at the Academy and in his senior year was the team captain and the leading scorer.[5] He graduated with a bachelor's degree in Soviet Studies, and he underwent Air Force intelligence gathering and processing training.[6] At one point, Popovich considered a career with the Central Intelligence Agency.[7]

Popovich served five years of required active duty in the United States Air Force, during which he toured Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union with the U.S. Armed Forces Basketball Team. In 1972, he was selected as captain of the Armed Forces Team, which won the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) championship. This earned him an invitation to the 1972 U.S. Olympic Basketball Team trials.
   549. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5556005)
If it does I will cheerfully allow GOP President Trump and the GOP House and GOP Senate to take any and all blame though.

OMG YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR TRIBES HOW DO YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR?
   550. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5556006)
I completely agree. The assertion that Trump has "walked back" his unsubstantiated smear is, ah, counter to sanity.

Trump truly has successfully normalized lying. His supporters, or defenders, or whatever, simply don't care - it's just Trump being Trump, and the American public deserve his "leadership" as their due for their sins.
Going back to previous comment- 40% of voters think he's honest. Not "they don't care"--somehow they have tuned it out completely. Somehow he has fooled them. That includes 8% of self-described D's, 15% of blacks, 25% of Hispanics, etc.

Although more "white, no college" approve of him than think he is honest, so the "they don't care" must apply to at least some of them.
   551. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5556008)
McCain just said that he doesn't pay any attention to Rand Paul. I'm beginning to think that I'm gonna miss him.

   552. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5556009)
That was an awfully quick flipflop - even for a Trumpkin!

The economy is rocking (because Trump!).... followed mere minutes later by unless there's an economic downturn (which won't be Trump's fault!)

Trump cannot fail, only be failed!

The cult continues to take shape nicely.
   553. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5556010)
The Spurs' coach Gregg Popovich** on Trump's latest lying smear of Obama:


Jesus Christ Andy. You been hiding under a rock for the last 24 hours?
   554. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5556011)
I am owed so many cokes. I am owed more cokes for the past 16 hours than I would drink in one year.
   555. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5556013)
Economic Policy Institute, September 2016:

What this report finds: Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979 ...

Income inequality and slow growth in the living standards of low- and moderate-income Americans have become defining features of today’s economy, and at their root is the near stagnation of hourly wage growth for the vast majority of American workers. Since 1979, wages have grown more slowly than productivity—a measure of the potential for wage growth—for everyone except the top 5 percent of workers, while wage growth for the top 1 percent has significantly exceeded the rate of productivity growth (Bivens and Mishel 2015). This means that the majority of workers have reaped few of the economic rewards they helped to produce over the last 36 years because a disproportionate share of the benefits have gone to those at the very top. While wage growth lagging behind productivity has affected workers from all demographic groups, wage growth for African American workers has been particularly slow. As a result, large pay disparities by race have remained unchanged or even expanded.


Economic fundamentalism -- a key strand of the Decline. The Peak, an obvious and critical economic inflection point.(*)

But Madden 18! And men can use women's locker rooms!!!

(*) And of course multicultural fanatics (**) -- another primary Decline strand -- attribute this worsening racial wage gap to "racism," when it is in fact no such thing, but is instead a direct result of economic fundamentalism, which they essentially support.

(**) I.e., essentially, modern liberals.
   556. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5556014)
Speaking of Trump I expect an angry Twitter Storm any second now ... Trump's net worth drops $600 million on Forbes' rich list, falls 92 spots
   557. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:39 PM (#5556016)
Speaking of Trump I expect an angry Twitter Storm any second now ... Trump's net worth drops $600 million on Forbes' rich list, falls 92 spots


Fake news. He should revoke Forbes' license.
   558. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5556021)
The Spurs' coach Gregg Popovich** on Trump's latest lying smear of Obama:

Jesus Christ Andy. You been hiding under a rock for the last 24 hours?


Not sure what that's supposed to mean. The interview I posted just appeared in my inbox a few minutes ago, even if it was apparently first posted yesterday. I'm well aware that this wasn't the first reaction to our Liar-in-Chief's smear of Obama, but given Pop's background I think it has a lot of weight behind it. He's almost the anti-Trump in that he's a serious and thoughtful person who brings extensive knowledge to his opinions, IOW he's pretty much everything that Trump isn't.
   559. Shredder Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5556022)
unabashed hyper-partisanship
Hmm. This phenomenon seems familiar. Ah, here it is:
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is an unabashed hyper-partisan may constantly accuse other people of being unabashed hyper-partisans. It incorporates blame shifting.
Apparently Hacker keeps very few mirrors in his domicile.
   560. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5556024)
Not sure what that's supposed to mean.


It means you owe me a coke, dammit.
   561. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5556025)
Good economy.

Love that you think Trump has something to do with this, 9 months in.

Although it is true that presidents get more credit and blame for the economy than deserved, those who were making Krugman-like election night predictions of economic collapse and a stock market crash should probably be estopped from now complaining about Trump touting the relatively good economic performance while he's been in office.
   562. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5556028)
The Spurs' coach Gregg Popovich** on Trump's latest lying smear of Obama:

Jesus Christ Andy. You been hiding under a rock for the last 24 hours?


Hey - there is no amount of too much repeating Popovich's words on Trump.

Frankly, I'm all for people just taking turns everyday, from here until removal of Trump, re-posting his comments. If he comes up with something new and better, we can revisit... but until then, an hourly repeat of "Trump... soulless coward" works for me.
   563. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5556029)
Economic fundamentalism -- a key strand of the Decline. The Peak, an obvious and critical economic inflection point.
Fun that the recommendations from that study are to basically elect more democrats. Although it kind of looks like the metrics were designed to lead to that conclusion.
   564. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5556030)
Not sure what that's supposed to mean. The interview I posted just appeared in my inbox a few minutes ago, even if it was apparently first posted yesterday. I'm well aware that this wasn't the first reaction to our Liar-in-Chief's smear of Obama, but given Pop's background I think it has a lot of weight behind it. He's almost the anti-Trump in that he's a serious and thoughtful person who brings extensive knowledge to his opinions, IOW he's pretty much everything that Trump isn't.


It's basically all we have been talking about here since Joe posted it yesterday.
   565. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5556031)
Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

It means you're behind. We're on the 16th rack and your table is finishing up the third. SNORE
   566. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5556032)
Apparently Hacker keeps very few mirrors in his domicile.

Quite typical for vampires.
   567. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5556033)
Speaking of Trump I expect an angry Twitter Storm any second now


Nah, it just means he's hiding his spoils better. Either that or he needs to step up the looting.
   568. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:48 PM (#5556034)
Fun that the recommendations from that study are to basically elect more democrats.


Well, at one point that would have been blatantly obvious. Today's open borders/"free trade"/tepidly pro-union Democrats? Not so much.

Indeed, most of the Democrats on the board have been spending the last year-plus calling anyone who questions the wisdom of open borders and the illegal labor markets, "xenophobic" and/or "racist." (Or hating "brown people.")
   569. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5556037)
It's basically all we have been talking about here since Joe posted it yesterday.


Minor point: I didn't post it, i post from my phone while at work and I don't know how to copy links on it. I knew someone here would like it and post it for me.
   570. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5556038)
486

That, as others have suggested, we are divided. But I don't think it's anyone's "fault" but, rather, a natural evolution reflecting the great diversity of race, ethnicity, gender, lifestyle, culture, geography and musical taste that is the United States. Both sides pols are guilty of trying to leverage the divide into election and we haven't really had anyone in a long while who was successful at bringing large numbers of the other side to their side. They've tried - I have little doubt with W or Obama were insincere in their efforts to reach out to the other side but not so sincere as to bend very much in their beliefs and policies.


Spot on.
   571. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5556039)
Fun that the recommendations from that study are to basically elect more democrats.


Heh. The whole study is clearly a Modern Liberal fever dream:

Wilson and Rodgers tie the growth of racial wage gaps beginning in the early 1980s to factors like high unemployment, declining unionization, and lax enforcement of anti-discrimination laws.

“While racial wage gaps are worse today than in 1979, the deterioration has not appeared along a straight line,” said Wilson. “During the late 1990s, the gaps shrank due partially to tight labor markets, which made discrimination more costly, and policy decisions like raising the minimum wage. Since 2000, the gaps have grown again.”


In order to address racial wage gaps, Wilson and Rodgers recommend various policies to eliminate workplace discrimination and create greater transparency, including: consistently enforcing antidiscrimination laws, urging the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to develop metropolitan area measures of discrimination, and encouraging the Bureau of Labor Statistics to identify currently “unobservable measures” that impact racial wage gaps.

Additionally, they recommend broader economic policies, such as raising the federal minimum wage, strengthening workers’ ability to collectively bargain, and monetary policy that targets full employment with wage growth that matches productivity gains.

   572. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5556041)
But I don't think it's anyone's "fault" but, rather, a natural evolution reflecting the great diversity of race, ethnicity, gender, lifestyle, culture, geography and musical taste that is the United States.


The United States has always been this way. Things like NASCAR and country music were more hickish and niche in 1979 than they are today. The country has homogenized since then, not gotten more diverse. Geographic differences are not remotely what they once were and, of course, we now have modern communications which has nationalized things like local newspapers.
   573. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5556042)
Somewhat tangential to Trump's inability to keep dad's fortune so big -

Did anyone mention that Jerry Brown vetoed the California legislation requiring release of tax returns to appear on the CA ballot?

FWIW, I'd be perfectly fine with requiring candidates to release their taxes -- it's obviously been the custom for many a cycle and everyone except Trump did it.

However, I think Brown was correct to veto it and I agree with his reasoning (slippery slope + distaste for laws clearly tailored towards a specific individual).

If there was to be a law requiring it, I think it only works if comes out of Congress.... not individual state legislatures.
   574. PepTech Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5556045)
I doubt, then, that folks will mind too much for harping on the Douche-in-Chief's latest low point:
Kelly, according to media reports, has tried to keep his son's death private.
The Washington Post, in a 2011 profile of Kelly, reported that the general asked a Marine Corps officer not to mention his son's death when he was introduced at a St. Louis event days after his son was killed.
But hey, I need to prove I'm better, so I'm going to send the press over to hassle a Gold Star family.

* To repeat - how Trump, or Obama, or Bush, or anyone else comforts or does not comfort these families is immaterial. Kelly clearly wishes to keep his thoughts and grief process private, and one would normally think that as a father *and* a general he would have earned the right to have his wishes honored. Trump doesn't give a #### about Kelly's wishes.
   575. Omineca Greg Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5556047)
The prices for the E H Taylor lineup and the Pikesville Rye are preposterously high, but the fact you can, apparently, get access to the entire Buffalo Trace Antique Collection for approximately $200 a bottle in Canadian funny money is a pretty good deal. MRSP for those is ~$90 in the US, but you'd have to be incredibly lucky to find one on a liquor store shelf at all, let alone for anything close to MRSP.


OK, thanks.

I bought a bottle of the Taylor Single Barrel a couple of years ago. It was $80 plus tax...I quite liked it, but I thought it was not an especially good value...Booker's is also $80, and I really like that one. That would be my go to bottle for bourbon. Last year I got Jefferson's Ocean, I think it was $115. It's nice, but really not a good value at all, my least favourite of the three. That's the good thing about upscale spirits, they're almost never bad, it's just a question of value, I think for the entire time I've been doing it, I've only ever been crushingly disappointed once.

They open up the Liquor Stores at 930am on a specified Saturday morning in November, and all the premium spirits are set up in a big display. In the Omineca, it's not a big deal, I always get there around 940am, and look for the collection of older, well-heeled Scotsmen, and I know that's where they have the display. They're all hanging out, talking about the last Freemason's meeting, and I cut in and "Yoink!" get my bottles.

The rarer bottles are only at the bigger stores. There's one massive store, 39th and Cambie, in Vancouver, and the ones that are in very limited numbers, that's where they are. I've never been to that unveiling, I'm assuming there's a line-up outside the door and stuff and all the rare bottles are gone in the first fifteen minutes, but I don't really know. I could send one of my kids to the Big Store, but I've never felt the need...but we never get the Buffalo Trace ones here, so if I wanted one of those, that's what I'd have to do.

Last year I spent $800, which I figure isn't too bad for all the pleasure I get out of it. I've been drinking so little over the last year, that I still have several unopened bottles from the last release, so I'm sure I'll be spending less this time round.
   576. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5556049)
Not sure what that's supposed to mean. The interview I posted just appeared in my inbox a few minutes ago, even if it was apparently first posted yesterday. I'm well aware that this wasn't the first reaction to our Liar-in-Chief's smear of Obama, but given Pop's background I think it has a lot of weight behind it. He's almost the anti-Trump in that he's a serious and thoughtful person who brings extensive knowledge to his opinions, IOW he's pretty much everything that Trump isn't.

It's basically all we have been talking about here since Joe posted it yesterday.


I realize that, but so what? Popovich said it better. And some people here are still discussing it as I write.
   577. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5556050)
* To repeat - how Trump, or Obama, or Bush, or anyone else comforts or does not comfort these families is immaterial. Kelly clearly wishes to keep his thoughts and grief process private, and one would normally think that as a father *and* a general he would have earned the right to have his wishes honored. Trump doesn't give a #### about Kelly's wishes.


Hey - Kelly can either have his wishes respected or he can keep hiding the tweetphone.... he can't have both.
   578. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5556051)
Somewhat tangential to Trump's inability to keep dad's fortune so big -

Did anyone mention that Jerry Brown vetoed the California legislation requiring release of tax returns to appear on the CA ballot?
Yeah, the way to fix the issue with Trump's conflicts of interest is not to require his tax returns, which would not tell us that much, but to improve the information collected by the FEC. No new laws needed, just better regulatory forms.

While I'm sure we'd find out some interesting things about Trump, I'm more interested in the details of how Congressmen get rich while in office. IMHO pretty much every aspect of their financial lives should be transparent and open to scrutiny by the public.
   579. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 17, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5556052)
* To repeat - how Trump, or Obama, or Bush, or anyone else comforts or does not comfort these families is immaterial. Kelly clearly wishes to keep his thoughts and grief process private, and one would normally think that as a father *and* a general he would have earned the right to have his wishes honored. Trump doesn't give a #### about Kelly's wishes.


Make you a deal. When Trump does something like Bush did with Pat Tillman, give us a call. Until then, it's just tribal echo chamber noise.
   580. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5556053)
The country has homogenized since then, not gotten more diverse.

Yeah, just look at Brad Daugherty.


Make you a deal.

Continuing to let you avoid reality isn't much of a deal for anyone but you.
   581. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5556054)
He's almost the anti-Trump in that he's a serious and thoughtful person who brings extensive knowledge to his opinions, IOW he's pretty much everything that Trump isn't.


Dude... the list of people "serious and thoughtful [that] bring extensive knowledge to his opinions" compared to Trump includes many species of plant life, most bacteria, and at least some of the smarter types of rocks.
   582. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5556055)
idea that crept into that orange head.

Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.


you left off "any batshit."
   583. BDC Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5556060)
I like whiskey, but you've got too much ashtray money if you go over $50 a fifth

Depends. A lot of luxury goods really are very, very good. I used to be married to someone who was appalled if I bought domestic "parmesan" instead of Reggiano. I would think, I'm just going to grate this stuff on top of Paul Newman sauce and Skinner's spaghetti, if I'm doing that with Reggiano I do have too much money. But for other purposes, indeed, real Parmesan is worth the difference. The same probably applies to whiskey and just about any consumable.
   584. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5556062)
No wars so far for Trump.


In 9 whole months! Bravo!
   585. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:07 PM (#5556065)
Make you a deal. When Trump does something like Bush did with Pat Tillman, give us a call. Until then, it's just tribal echo chamber noise.


A tribe that includes 55% to 65% of the country, depending on your poll preferences.
   586. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:11 PM (#5556070)
A lot of luxury goods really are very, very good.


I agree, but the price scale doesn't always line up with quality. Parmigiano-Reggiano is a world-class product that costs about $28 per lb. The knockoff Argentinian stuff is half that, and the green tube of Kraft parmesan is half that again or less. But in booze you can quickly find bottles that sell for thousands of dollars. The spread in whiskey prices is wild and crazy compared to the spread in cheese prices.

Scarcity isn't always worth paying for. I like lobster, but I prefer cheeseburgers. Just imagine a world where a cheeseburger always cost $30 or more and you only bought them once or twice a year, perhaps when you were on vacation in the one part of the country where they had a lot of cows. People would go apeshit for cheeseburgers. Hell, it might cost $300 for a burger.
   587. PepTech Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5556071)
Make you a deal. When Trump does something like Bush did with Pat Tillman, give us a call. Until then, it's just tribal echo chamber noise.
Your use of "us" is illuminating. You see yourself as part of a tribe protecting the world from tribalism.

The real question is why you get all defendy about Trump. You are now stating flat out that he can say or do any awful or douche-like thing he likes, without consequence, as long as it's not AS awful as some standard you've set. And cast yourself as the noble, virtuous one in doing so.

I made no claims that Obama or Clinton or anyone else is virtuous; not playing any partisan games - a liar is a liar, a racist is a racist, and a douche is just that. Your obsessive need to protect him from being called out on his nonsense is *at least* as unhinged as the obsessive witch hunts you decry.
   588. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5556072)
Patty Murray and Lamar Alexander have supposedly reached a deal on funding the CSRs - as well as restoring funding by legislation for enrollment promotion. The Democratic giveaway is supposedly allowing creation of "copper plans" - another level of lower coverage that would satisfy the ACA mandate.

Of course, none of this would likely change the rate hikes people are going to see in the next 3 weeks.
   589. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5556075)
What this report finds: Black-white wage gaps are larger today than they were in 1979 ...
Blacks and whites are wealthier today than they were in 1979. Only jealous losers worry about relative rather than absolute success.
   590. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5556077)
Jesus Christ Andy. You been hiding under a rock for the last 24 hours?

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. The interview I posted just appeared in my inbox a few minutes ago, even if it was apparently first posted yesterday. I'm well aware that this wasn't the first reaction to our Liar-in-Chief's smear of Obama, but given Pop's background I think it has a lot of weight behind it. He's almost the anti-Trump in that he's a serious and thoughtful person who brings extensive knowledge to his opinions, IOW he's pretty much everything that Trump isn't.
It's supposed to mean that this specific comment was reported yesterday.
   591. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:19 PM (#5556081)
Of course, none of this would likely change the rate hikes people are going to see in the next 3 weeks.


And I doubt it even really goes anywhere anyway. Call me crazy, but I don't see the GOP led House signing off on "saving Obamacare", the Senate making it to 60 votes on it, and then "I Hate Obama" Trump signing off on it.

Good thing the GOP now owns health care and can suffer their just desserts for trying to blow it up.
   592. Satan Says Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5556085)
If it would have to take a wrecked economy to defeat Trump in 2020, put me on the Trump bandwagon.

Good man.

It's not about what I want (who cares?), it's about reality. That I am a dirty, stinking lawyer for some dirty, stinking defendants?

You ain't a-gonna cross the line, I guess it must be up to me.
   593. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5556086)
I realize that, but so what? Popovich said it better. And some people here are still discussing it as I write.


The point is, it was the Popovich quote which started the whole thing. It's like posting on May 1, 1942 "Hey, did you guys here this? Japan attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor."
   594. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5556087)
Poison

I think this is absolutely correct.

But now we are. And that’s the thing: Donald Trump poisons everything. It’s like an abuser with a captive family; he poisons everything, inflames everything, destroys and degrades anything in his path for his own ends. No one gets out in one piece. He’s poison. He’s just poison. There’s no other way to put it. He hurts the country every moment he’s in office.


The only thing that I'd say is that "for his own ends" needs more emphasis... because that's certainly the bottom line - it's the difference between the egos that certainly were large of any previous President or seeker of the Presidency and this guy.

It's the line where egotism becomes dangerous and unhealthy narcissism. Where everything - EVERYTHING - is about him. Every President has gotten pointed questions. Every President has gotten leading or partisan questions. Every President has had to deal with questions that could be slotted into silly, crass, uncomfortable, etc buckets.

Trump is entirely and uniquely alone in that he is clearly and wholly incapable of considering ANY question as anything other than a reflection on him. He lacks the ability to even hear a question in any other way so it just logically follows that he lacks the ability to answer a question any other way.
   595. Mike A Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5556088)
The same probably applies to whiskey and just about any consumable.
Wine? I thought studies showed that most people couldn't tell the difference between some random $10 California wine and a $300 French vintage. Not sure if they've done any of those blind taste tests with whiskey.
   596. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5556092)
Fun that the recommendations from that study are to basically elect more democrats. Although it kind of looks like the metrics were designed to lead to that conclusion.
EPI is a union-funded think tank, so it's not exactly surprising.
   597. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5556096)
Did anyone mention that Jerry Brown vetoed the California legislation requiring release of tax returns to appear on the CA ballot?
He also vetoed a bill that would have statutorily imposed lack-of-due-process in campus sex investigations.
   598. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5556097)
Wine? I thought studies showed that most people couldn't tell the difference between some random $10 California wine and a $300 French vintage. Not sure if they've done any of those blind taste tests with whiskey.


The "you can't tell the cost unless you're a trained sommelier" cost is a bit higher than that, but yes - past ~$20, you're paying for advertising/prestige, not quality of wine.

Whisky must have some such price, but I'm not sure I've seen it (or hit it on the bottle - but I've never paid more than ~$100 USD for a bottle of whisky).
   599. Traderdave Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5556098)
As a lover of overpriced bourbon, I always appreciate chatter about that (and it helps take my mind off my country slipping into fascism because so many of its voters are dumber than the ashtray on my desk).

But what about really good CHEAP bourbon? By really good I mean good enough to sip neat. By really cheap I mean less than $25 a throw.


Several bonded bourbons qualify:

Evan Williams Bonded $12-15
Beam Bonded $20-ish
Very Old Barton bonded $20-ish but damn hard to find



Also:

Buffalo Trace $21-25
Four Roses Yellow label $20ish
George Dickel $16-18


Anyone have others to suggest?









   600. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5556099)
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