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Monday, September 18, 2017

OTP 18 September 2017: Ex-Baseball Star Darryl Strawberry Criticizes Jemele Hill, Praises POTUS: Trump is ‘A Great Man’

“I think no one should call anyone anything. President Trump, he’s a great man to me. He was always gracious to me. I really love him, his family, I was on his show and he’s always been kind to me… I’ve known him quite well and every time I’ve seen him and been around him he’s always been so gracious with me and I’m always grateful for that.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:53 AM | 1552 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: daryl strawberry, politics

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   1101. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5536724)
flipster
   1102. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5536725)
Madonna probably wants to stab her.


But Debbie's bank account is jealous.
   1103. Greg K Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5536726)
NYT didn't mention the real news at all -- IOW, they provided no context to understand why heightened tensions at Incirlik might create alarm about higher security at thr base.

It's not that NYT is blatantly fake, it's that its editors create narratives and then shape the facts to fit them. And there's a trickle down effect upon American journalism.

Well ok, but what is the real reason Germany is pulling out of Incirlik?

I thought the article did a decent job of putting it in the context of the continuing deterioration of German-Turkish relations. Tensions over continued EU accession negotiations that aren't going anywhere, German pronouncements on the Armenian genocide, perceived interference in each other's domestic affairs on both sides (Turkey operating political campaigns in Germany, Germany poking its nose into Turkey's referendum), Germany's refusal to extradite Gulenists, Turkey's detaining of German citizens. With the relationship falling apart as it is, small wonder having German military on Turkish soil is unpopular.

Is the implication that NATO forces in some way aided and abetted the attempted coup from Incirlik?

EDIT: Or just that the point that Turks see a security threat in having an increasingly hostile nation stationed in their territory needs to be made more explicit?

   1104. Omineca Greg Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5536729)
Can't talk about the mainstreaming of hiphop without giving a nod to Blondie for "Rapture".


"The Tide Is High" cover jogs my memory of all the toasting DJs from Jamaica, and how that type of music was worked into English rock in the 70s. Different traditions, but a similar sort of thing as to what posters here have been talking about.
   1105. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5536730)
Public Enemy rerecorded "Bring the Noise" with Anthrax in 1991

I've totally lost track of the whole purpose of this, but how has RUN DMC/Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" from 1986 not been brought up?


both released the version on subsequent albums and they went on a joint tour where the finale would be both bands on stage performing the song.

Saw the opening of that tour in Poughkeepsie. In like a gym/fieldhouse.

Chuck D brought along Young Black Teenagers (white rappers) as the first act. Who were then followed by math-punkers Primus.

The Bring the Noise number that closed the night was considerably epic. Claypool and others came out to play on it as well, if I recall.

   1106. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5536734)
Madonna probably wants to stab her.

But Debbie's bank account is jealous.


I guess but I doubt she's hurting. Last I heard she had two vintage houses in the northeast and an apartment in NYC. Plus, you know, she still makes awesome music.
   1107. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5536735)
Public Enemy rerecorded "Bring the Noise" with Anthrax in 1991

Also, I'd have to re-look up the history, but I had thought this was Anthrax mixing themselves into version of Bring the Noise for a B-side that became so popular upon the release that the tour sprung out of that.

EDIT: Nope, as per Wiki, an actual re-recording, memory fail.
   1108. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5536738)
Debbie Harry is the coolest chick in rock history.

She dated Harry Dean Stanton, so yeah.
   1109. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5536740)
Memory says the Beastie Boys big break came as opening act on Madonna's Like a Virgin tour.
   1110. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5536741)
I've totally lost track of the whole purpose of this, but how has RUN DMC/Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" from 1986 not been brought up?


Someone alluded to it -- but yes, this was a mindblower to 13 yo me. Both that album (Raising Hell) and even moreso the follow-up (Tougher than Leather), I could rap by heart. Mary, mary... why ya buggin?

   1111. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5536744)
Is the implication that NATO forces in some way aided and abetted the attempted coup from Incirlik?


Erdogan recalls NATO envoys

There's no evidence to back it, but Erdogan became more ambivalent/hostile afterthe coup attempt and drew xloaer to Russia.

On the other side, NATO wags speculated Erdogan staged the coup himself.

Of course, the truth is Putin is behind all global intrigue that negatively impacts the US.
   1112. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5536746)
PE toured to a crossover audience in support of ITANOMTHUB.
   1113. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5536748)
Memory says the Beastie Boys big break came as opening act on Madonna's Like a Virgin tour.


I don't know that I'd call it a break -- they regularly got booed off stage.... not at all their crowd. It was touring with RUN DMC on the Raising Hell tour that lit their rocket - a couple of tracks that would be released on License to Ill charted before the album was released (or....mmmmmm.... droppped!).
   1114. dlf Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5536751)
Then, for whatever reason

T-R-U-M-P


The timeline doesn't match. Strange moved away from his GOPe centrist business focused positions and started impeding the Alabama legislature's (R controlled) investigation into Bentley (sitting R Governor, subsequently plead guilty and resigned) before DJT was winning any primary. Bentley's rise was as less histrionic Roy Moore and no fan of the GOPe (or vice versa) in the state; Strange's initial rise was as the GOPe candidate for AG.
   1115. Greg K Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5536756)
Yeah I'd certainly agree, Russia doesn't really seem to be a primary driver in the story of Turkey over the past 18 months. I don't get a lot of American media - is that implied in US coverage? (Or I imagine, is it more likely that Turkish-European relations just doesn't get in the news much). Though certainly Putin is ok with a rift opening between Turkey and the other members of NATO.

I think it's certainly to Erdogan's domestic political benefit to hint at Western complicity. A hostile and insidious foreign threat is a helpful backdrop for his purges and constitutional reform (noises from the West that Erdogan engineered all of this are probably counter-productive as to the average Turk that probably just makes them look more guilty). I wouldn't necessarily read Erdogan's behavior as him thinking the West was behind the Gulenist coup (though it wouldn't surprise me if he did think the West wants to oust him). But rather that the failed coup (and the whiff of Western complicity) gives him a very useful political tool. As the old adage goes, I think it's local politics driving foreign policy, rather than the other way around.

Though Erdogan is probably working a foreign policy angle here too. Despite the tut-tutting from Germany he probably feels like he's operating from a position of strength. The migration deal he has with the EU is an ace he has up his sleeve in any confrontation with Europe, and Economist especially sees Erdogan's dalliance with Russia as a way to further this leverage. In other words "you need me a lot more than I need you, and hey look, here's Russia who is willing to be my friend, maybe I don't need you at all". So this is all calling Europe's bluff, daring them to do something about his purges and ultimately proving Europe's not going to do anything, all the while he's playing his two powerful neighbours off of each other.

In the end, I imagine we can agree on the point that world news is much more useful when not filtered through the narrow lens of "how does this effect domestic American politics"?
   1116. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5536762)
Of course it will. I was merely alluding to David's longstanding assertion that taxation amounts to "stealing" one's life.

Well, it's hard to believe that anyone could make such a pronouncement with a straight face. No offense meant to Mr. Nieporent, but I've yet to hear of a defense of libertarianism that can account for how that sort of absolute individual freedom could work in a vibrant society and under a political system that had long-term existence potential in theory or reality.
   1117. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5536776)
Roll Call:
Strange and his allies have spent or are scheduled to spend more than $4.7 million on television ads from just after the Aug. 21 primary to the Sept. 26 runoff — including $758,000 from the senator’s campaign — over $3.3 million from Senate Leadership Fund (the McConnell-aligned Super PAC), $525,000 from the National Rifle Association, and $138,000 from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce as of Friday, according to a source tracking spending in the race.

The effort for Moore on television is meager. The former state supreme court justice’s campaign is scheduled to have spent $533,000 on TV.

...In spite of the saber rattling by former White House adviser Steve Bannon about challenging the Republican Party, the group aligned with the Breitbart founder (Great America Alliance) is scheduled to spend just $27,000 on TV ads in Alabama this week, and didn’t have an ad reservation for the final week, as of Friday.


These numbers are incomplete; for example, a Trump nonprofit (America First Policies) is known to be shoveling another half a million into this last week of the campaign for Strange.


Open Secrets:
Copious amounts of money are being tossed into the race as the Republican challengers prepare to face off next week.

Strange has raised $3.9 million and spent about $4.1 million as of Sept. 6, according to filings with the Federal Elections Commission (FEC). The amount raised by his campaign more than doubles the $1.7 million then-Sen. Jeff Sessions received for his 2014 Senate bid.

...According to a Sept. 6 FEC filing, Moore’s campaign has raised $1.4 million and spent $1.1 million. As far as outside spending, the Solution Fund PAC has spent $54,000 in support of Moore while the Swamp Drainers Foundation and the Madison Project have spent $85,000 and $68,000 respectively in advertising and other communication materials against Strange.


Washington Examiner:
Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn, R-Texas, told reporters on Tuesday that a Strange victory is an imperative... adding his concern that Moore defeating Strange, who has the support of Trump and the full Senate GOP leadership, could embolden primary challengers against Republican incumbents in 2018: "Well, we've seen that sort of thing happen before, and it's not a pretty picture."


For sure, nothing will UN-embolden would-be Republican primary challengers faster than seeing the GOP establishment spend over $10 million in a double primary, in Alabama, so that McConnell's sitting Senator can beat Roy Moore by 2%.
   1118. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5536779)
Of course it will. I was merely alluding to David's longstanding assertion that taxation amounts to "stealing" one's life.

Well, it's hard to believe that anyone could make such a pronouncement with a straight face.


I couldn't believe it, either, but he's said it many a time and defended his position like a lioness defending her cubs.
   1119. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5536787)
Well, I know he makes the assertion often, but does he defend it in an overall socio-political context, one in which in reality we can live in relative freedom and security amongst ourselves and the outside world?
   1120. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5536795)
The defense was merely linguistic. The government effectively takes your labor and your labor is an investment of your life. The point is provocative, but not really wrong in any serious sense.

It's an assertion that drives hardcore statists and euphemists like Andy nuts which is likely 90%-plus of the reason the lioness roars so loudly about it. But he can certainly roar for himself.
   1121. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5536807)
The defense was merely linguistic. The government effectively takes your labor and your labor is an investment of your life.


It's not only a stupid, nonsensical claim, it's especially rich coming from a lawyer. In absence of a government to implement legal consequences, a lawyer's work has absolutely zero value. More respectable professions have universal utility, even a ditch-digger can ply his trade anywhere in the world. A mere lawyer moves to another country and invalidates a majority of their knowledge base because their entire utility derives from their government's internal values.
   1122. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5536809)
It's no only a stupid claim, it's especially rich coming from a lawyer. In absence of a government to implement legal consequences, a lawyer's work has absolutely zero value.


Nope. Wrong again. There are plenty of private arbitration tribunals that arbitrate purely private matters. Pretty much every securities brokerage agreement calls for mandatory private arbitration. The sports leagues have private arbitrations and collective bargaining. Etc., etc.
   1123. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5536811)
It's an assertion that drives hardcore statists...


Meaning the entirety of the reality based universe. Modern life is not possible without the modern state. The state requires money. That money has to come from somewhere. Pretending it can fall from heaven like manna and that it need never come from the product of someone's labor is fatuous at best.
   1124. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5536814)
It's no only a stupid claim, it's especially rich coming from a lawyer. In absence of a government to implement legal consequences, a lawyer's work has absolutely zero value.

Nope. Wrong again. There are plenty of private arbitration tribunals that arbitrate purely private matters.


"My work has intrinsic merit! I could work on the Judge Judy show or a Shaira court anywhere in the world!"
   1125. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5536815)
"My work has intrinsic merit! I could work on the Judge Judy show or a Shaira court anywhere in the world!"


You forgot the stretchy band joke.
   1126. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:32 PM (#5536817)
Modern life is not possible without the modern state. The state requires money. That money has to come from somewhere.


And it comes from government taking (stealing) people's labor (lives). It doesn't have to, of course -- there are plenty of other avenues for taxation. But it does.

(And "modern life is not possible without the modern state" is among the most banal banalities that ever banaled.)
   1127. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5536820)
You forgot the stretchy band joke.


Well you forgot to make any sort of valid point, so we're both remiss.

"We could agree to settle things outside of the courts! That proves lawyers are valuable!" What happens if I go to one of your kangaroo courts and don't like the outcome? You hire goons to make me settle up?
   1128. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5536821)
Well you forgot to make any sort of valid point


No, mine was perfectly valid. Government isn't a necessary prerequisite to the existence and utility of lawyers.

See? Valid point. Made by me.
   1129. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5536823)
It's not only a stupid, nonsensical claim, it's especially rich coming from a lawyer. In absence of a government to implement legal consequences, a lawyer's work has absolutely zero value. More respectable professions have universal utility, even a ditch-digger can ply his trade anywhere in the world. A mere lawyer moves to another country and invalidates a majority of their knowledge base because their entire utility derives from their government's internal values.

You owe me a Coke from like 8 years ago - pretty sure I was on a Greyhound somewhere when I made this point to Ray and David.
   1130. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5536825)
And it comes from government taking (stealing) people's labor (lives). It doesn't have to, of course -- there are plenty of other avenues for taxation. But it does.


What other "avenues"? Where comes this money if not from people's labor?

Note: Ignoring the fatuousness of equating taxation with theft and labor with life, both assertions being stupid enough to make T. Lasorda look like a genius.
   1131. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5536826)
A mere lawyer moves to another country and invalidates a majority of their knowledge base because their entire utility derives from their government's internal values.


This is false, too. Plenty of American lawyers counsel clients on foreign laws.
   1132. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5536829)
What other "avenue"? Where comes this money if not from people's labor?


Uh, sales taxes? Consumption taxes? Tariffs and duties? Securities transaction taxes?

You might remember -- well, you probably don't, but anything's possible -- that the US didn't have an income tax until 1913, 100+ years into its existence.

Ignoring the fatuousness of equating taxation with theft and labor with life, both assertions being stupid enough to make T. Lasorda look like a genius.


You're a committed statist and euphemist, too -- so no great shock you'd say this. And it's not that labor is being "equated" with life; labor is life. One spends part of his life at labor.
   1133. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:42 PM (#5536831)
You're a committed... euphemist, too

I'd like to see you say this to a tuba player and see how it goes.
   1134. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5536834)
Uh, sales taxes? Consumption taxes? Tariffs and duties? Securities transaction taxes?

You might remember -- well, you probably don't, but anything's possible -- that the US didn't have an income tax until 1913, 100+ years into its existence.


Fake lawyer needs to brush up on his fake economist credentials. All of the taxes you name steal the value of a person's labor just as much as an income tax does. They do it in different ways, with different economic impacts, but if a government raises $100 from income taxes that money comes from income generated by labor*. If it raises $100 from sales taxes that money - SURPRISE! - comes from income generated by ... wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it ... labor.*

* Though obviously the labor could be at a remove. Still the concept is basically the same, as is obvious to any but a troll.

You're a committed statist and euphemist, too -- so no great shock you'd say this. And it's not that labor is being "equated" with life; labor is life. One spends part of his life at labor.


One spends part of his life masturbating, so masturbating is life. Great logic Einstein.
   1135. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5536836)
No, mine was perfectly valid. Government isn't a necessary prerequisite to the existence and utility of lawyers.


Then who determines what the laws are? Some nebulous organizing body which implements and enforces laws but isn't a government?

This is false, too. Plenty of American lawyers counsel clients on foreign laws.


"Plenty" eh? "Plenty" of people can be said to do lots of things. "Plenty" of pitchers hit home runs. If you learn a foreign legal system you can teach foreign laws - BY GUM I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT.

Are you a fake lawyer in more than one country, or just this one? Absent a government, do you intend to enforce rulings at stretchy-band-point?
   1136. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5536838)
Well, I know he makes the assertion often, but does he defend it in an overall socio-political context, one in which in reality we can live in relative freedom and security amongst ourselves and the outside world?

Well, David may be a libertarian ideologue, but he's not stupid. Intellectually he realizes that certain minimal elements of the modern state are necessary, and I don't think he's proposed funding the DOD with cake sales and GoFundMe appeals. But he still holds onto that "stealing" meme.

But I'd still like to know how he'd square a democratically elected Communist government's 100% tax rate with his position that non-totalitarian governments don't often radically constrict individuals' life choices in ways that are virtually indistinguishable from the practices of certified totalitarian regimes.

In my hypothetical Communist state with its 100% tax rate, those life choices (how to dispense with one's earnings) would be constricted in one way, and in the case of the Jim Crown South, those life choices (for non-whites) were constricted at birth in other ways. But in real life those would be distinctions without much of a difference from the constrictions imposed on the citizens of Stalin's Russia. It doesn't mean that George Wallace's Alabama was totalitarian along the lines of Stalin's Russia,** but it does mean that many of the distinctions between the two were virtually meaningless.

** The biggest difference was the vulnerability of the former regime to outside pressure, but it might also be noted that it took over 4 times as long to break down slavery and Jim Crow in Colonial and small "r" republican America as it did to destroy Communism in Russia.
   1137. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5536840)
If it raises $100 from sales taxes that money - SURPRISE! - comes from income generated by ... wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it ... labor.*

* Though obviously the labor could be at a remove. Still the concept is basically the same, as is obvious to any but a troll.


Concession accepted.

No, the "concept" is not "basically the same" in the least (*), and all income isn't generated by labor.

Conceding the point may have been the more sensible thing here. The wrong person calling the right person a "troll" generally isn't that great a look. But if it works for you, fine. No accounting for taste.

(*) And especially isn't "basically the same" w/r/t tariffs and duties.
   1138. Hot Wheeling American Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5536841)
Intellectual Star of the Right Gives Speech

A couple of weeks before he was ousted as deputy assistant to President Donald Trump, Sebastian Gorka gave an explosive two-and-a-half-hour speech to the US Army’s special operations school, which an officer who was present characterized as a “tirade” about the war in Afghanistan, Sharia law, radical Islamic terrorism, and the Trump administration’s aggressive policies to counter and “defeat it all.”
   1139. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5536842)
The government effectively takes your labor and your labor is an investment of your life. The point is provocative, but not really wrong in any serious sense.

This blithely evades the central issue, which is that to the extent government takes your labor it can give you something in return. What should be considered is that the arrangement is predicated on what is mutually beneficial. Nothing is absolutely free. You have to pay for what you get. Indeed, unless the individual does, there can be no mutually advantageous arrangement. A free lunch would be social suicide.
   1140. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5536846)
all income isn't generated by labor.


Ultimately yes it is. But you are correct your concession is sensible. Thanks. Now you can move on to being wrong on some other subject, having learned something here.
   1141. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5536847)
Well that's easy, one was a president who thought the negro entirely inferior to the white man, and the other...wait, this is harder than I thought.

YR's Lincoln posts don't hold up very well, as has been noted many times here. Lincoln was a politician who knew he couldn't win with just votes from abolitionists or anti-slavery types, so he also appealed to negrophobes by arguing that the expansion of slavery would allow the spread of the dreaded negro. It may sound a bit jarring today, out of context, but it doesn't change Lincoln's place in his time.
   1142. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5536849)
I'll bet David pays far more in taxes than Andy does. And it's likely not close.

Moreover Andy is draining the state's resources far more than David is. And that number is likely to only increase over the remainder of Andy's life.
   1143. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5536853)
There are plenty of private arbitration tribunals that arbitrate purely private matters. Pretty much every securities brokerage agreement calls for mandatory private arbitration. The sports leagues have private arbitrations and collective bargaining. Etc., etc.

A lot of that voluntary stuff has the shadow of the government looming over it. Unless there wouldn't be an arbitration or collective bargaining. Major League Baseball is a prime example of this. How long and what did it take for the owners to come around to arbitration and bargaining?
   1144. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:09 PM (#5536855)
If we waited for competing parties to just be friends, it would be like the original Rockefeller putting all who wouldn't kowtow out of business. Or, if you prefer, like the way MLB controls and treats the minor leagues.
   1145. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:09 PM (#5536856)
And it comes from government taking (stealing) people's labor (lives). It doesn't have to, of course -- there are plenty of other avenues for taxation. But it does.

What other "avenues"? Where comes this money if not from people's labor?


Whenever it's noted that illegals don't pay income taxes the elites are quick to note B-B-B-B-UT THEY DO GET TAXED! SALES TAXES! SALES TAXES!

Suddenly however when it comes to whether David's taxes it's of no moment that he pays sales taxes and property taxes, etc. The left wants his income taxes as well. And attacks him for saying that the government is stealing 1/3 of his life.
   1146. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5536858)
even a ditch-digger can ply his trade anywhere in the world


Not in the libertarian paradise of Sealand!

Unless he brings his own dirt, I guess.
   1147. Srul Itza Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5536860)
. Debbie Harry is the coolest chick in rock history. She has no right being this cool in 2017


Context: I caught Blondie/Debbie Harry as an opening act for Iggy Pop (with David Bowie sitting in on keyboard for Iggy)

In Cambridge.

In 1976 or 77.
   1148. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5536861)
I'll bet David pays far more in taxes than Andy does. And it's likely not close.

Moreover Andy is draining the state's resources far more than David is. And that number is likely to only increase over the remainder of Andy's life.

Do you have any idea how societies work and thrive? Hint: it isn't by everyone in it getting what they think should according to what they think they put into it.
   1149. zenbitz Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5536863)
Public Enemy rerecorded "Bring the Noise" with Anthrax in 1991,


There was also a "rap" (mock-u-rap?) song "I'm the Man" on the same album as well. The gag was that one guy kept screwing up the (obvious) rhymes.
   1150. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5536866)
I'll bet David pays far more in taxes than Andy does. And it's likely not close.

Well, lawyers with Princeton degrees do tend to earn more than bootleg movie exhibitors and used book shop owners. But then I made enough money in the latter profession to support a wife through grad school and retire at 62, so I'm not exactly complaining.

Moreover Andy is draining the state's resources far more than David is. And that number is likely to only increase over the remainder of Andy's life.

And then decrease after I croak while David slowly withers away.

But of course all of this irrelevant personal trivia has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about totalitarian and non-totalitarian states, though I suppose I should be grateful that up to now you haven't tossed Hillary into the ring.
   1151. Omineca Greg Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5536867)
I caught Blondie/Debbie Harry as an opening act for Iggy Pop (with David Bowie sitting in on keyboard for Iggy)

You go to the best concerts.
   1152. Srul Itza Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:23 PM (#5536870)
There are plenty of private arbitration tribunals that arbitrate purely private matters.


None of which have any authority to implement their rulings. You have to then take the arbitration award to Court, to have it enforced.

And all of the arbitral tribunals are built on a foundation of laws, like the Revised Uniform Arbitration Act and the Federal Arbitration Act.
   1153. BrianBrianson Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:23 PM (#5536871)
Nope. Wrong again. There are plenty of private arbitration tribunals that arbitrate purely private matters. Pretty much every securities brokerage agreement calls for mandatory private arbitration. The sports leagues have private arbitrations and collective bargaining. Etc., etc.


All of that only exists because the government enforces it. And only needs lawyers because one side or the other might call upon the government to enforce it. Otherwise, you just ignore any arbitration result you don't like.
   1154. zenbitz Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5536875)
It was touring with RUN DMC on the Raising Hell tour that lit their rocket


I am pretty sure I saw this show at Shoreline (Mountain View, CA) in 1987. My buddy won tickets on the radio using an old-school modem autodialer.
What's strange is that in my memory License to Ill was already released. I was not a huge fan of either band though, I was more into punk/metal.

   1155. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5536876)
All of that only exists because the government enforces it.


No it doesn't. In mere fact, the government as things currently stand enforces arbitration judgments, but there's nothing in the working of the cosmos that says it has to be that way. Private enforcement mechanisms could be written into contracts, or at the end of the day things akin to private repossession efforts would happen.

Private tribunals would naturally arise in the absence of government, and there would be lawyers to whom laymen would turn to help them navigate and advocate within those tribunals.

It's as if you people have no understanding of private life whatever.

And only needs lawyers because one side or the other might call upon the government to enforce it.


No, people use lawyers in arbitrations to advocate their position effectively. That's a mission entirely independent from enforcement of award.
   1156. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5536880)
I'll bet David pays far more in taxes than Andy does. And it's likely not close.

I'll also bet that a fair number of currently illegal aliens will wind up paying far more in taxes than you and David put together. Which is about as relevant as any point you've made about taxes or illegal aliens in this entire sub-thread.
   1157. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5536882)
I'll also bet that a fair number of currently illegal aliens will wind up paying far more in taxes than you and David put together.


I'll also note that you overlook crimes committed by illegal aliens, who aren't paying any income taxes. But an American citizen income tax cheat, now. Hoo Boy the scourge of the earth.
   1158. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5536883)
There was also a "rap" (mock-u-rap?) song "I'm the Man" on the same album as well.


Though that song was first released on its own eponymous EP a few years earlier (1987):


The beginning of "I'm the Man" features an electric guitar riff of Jewish folk song "Hava Nagila", which can also be heard in the chorus. The chorus' lyrics are borrowed from one of Taylor Negron's lines in the Rodney Dangerfield movie "Easy Money." Rather than using a sample, the lines are performed by Frankie Bello. Anthrax also used one of Sam Kinison's famous primal screams for the song. At about 1:55 a sample of the Metallica song "Master of Puppets" from their 1986 album Master of Puppets can be heard. A few times after "I'm The Man" is said, a sample of "Shut Up" from Run–D.M.C.'s "You Talk Too Much" off their 1985 album King of Rock can be heard. Additionally, the "Yeah" that begins the song "(You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!)" by the Beastie Boys on their 1986 debut, Licensed to Ill is sampled..
   1159. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5536884)
In mere fact, the government as things currently stand enforces arbitration judgments, but there's nothing in the working of the cosmos that says it has to be that way. Private enforcement mechanisms could be written into contracts, or at the end of the day things akin to private repossession efforts would happen

You can write whatever you want in a contract or agreement. That's not self-enforcing, and the parties don't do the enforcing. For that, you need a third-party with an army and navy.

Of course, like I said you can have it where one party has so much more power and leverage than the other that it can bully or force the weaker party to play a sham game to the stronger parties advantage. The law has a term for those kinds of contracts/agreements.
   1160. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5536885)
Whenever it's noted that illegals don't pay income taxes the elites are quick to note B-B-B-B-UT THEY DO GET TAXED! SALES TAXES! SALES TAXES!


If you paid an illegal immigrant enough for them to owe income taxes you're probably doing something wrong.
   1161. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5536887)
That's not self-enforcing, and the parties don't do the enforcing.


They could, and sometimes do.

Cars are repossessed, as any Harry Dean Stanton fan knows.
   1162. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5536890)
I'll also note that you overlook crimes committed by illegal aliens, who aren't paying any income taxes. But an American citizen income tax cheat, now. Hoo Boy the scourge of the earth.


Different races, different standards and expectations and obligations.

Vintage, textbook modern liberalism.
   1163. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5536892)
Betsy DeVos does away with Obama-era rules for probing college sexual assaults under Title IX
   1164. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5536894)
First, Harry Dean could only do that with legal impunity because the law allowed it. When it doesn't, as many states don't allow it, he better not do it. But, again, it's not just two parties coming to terms. It's a third-party, the government, acting as an aegis for those actions. Anytime there's an agreement between two parties that doesn't contemplate enforcement by an overarching third-party, watch it. That's a situation ripe for abuse and for unresolvable contention.
   1165. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5536895)
All of that only exists because the government enforces it.

No it doesn't. In mere fact, the government as things currently stand enforces arbitration judgments, but there's nothing in the working of the cosmos that says it has to be that way.


I imagine a fictional world where I could bypass the judicial system by demanding trial by combat against my accuser. Perhaps your fictional system would be viable in Westeros as well!

But yes, perhaps you could construct a fictitious framework where nominal lawyers don't constitute a needle-toothed grip on a fat teat of government. Maybe you moochers could go live there!
   1166. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5536900)
First, Harry Dean could only do that with legal impunity because the law allowed it.


You mean didn't disallow it.

The same would be the case in Libertopia. And that's what would happen. Contracts would be written permitting private enforcement of judgments and private steps to effectuate the enforcement of judgments, and so it would be. It would be even easier in the computer age.
   1167. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5536904)
I'll bet David pays far more in taxes than Andy does. And it's likely not close.

I'll also bet that a fair number of currently illegal aliens will wind up paying far more in taxes than you and David put together.

I'll also note that you overlook crimes committed by illegal aliens, who aren't paying any income taxes. But an American citizen income tax cheat, now. Hoo Boy the scourge of the earth.


So now you've managed to steer the discussion from totalitarianism to illegal aliens' taxes to illegal aliens' criminal activity. Not for nothing did you get that law degree.
   1168. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5536905)
Tell Abusive Sky Fairy Dad we all said sorry
He said he doesn’t believe you, and you deserve it.
   1169. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5536907)

Different races, different standards and expectations and obligations.

Vintage, textbook modern liberalism.


The left's pet identity groups, ordered by level of concern:

1. Illegal aliens from Mexico.
2. Muslims abroad.
3. Transgenders.
4. LBGQ people.
5. Muslims in the US.
6. African Americans.
7. Women.

You'll see that nowhere on the list do I have straight white males. Or Asians or Jewish people or...

Also of note: African Americans have rapidly fallen way down the list. Some of them are starting to notice.

And in general, non-US citizens are ranked higher than US citizens.

Non-taxpayers and deadbeats: higher than taxpayers and non-deadbeats.

Democrats may well be able to win elections while continuing to go this way, but It'll be interesting.
   1170. BrianBrianson Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5536909)
Cars are repossessed, as any Harry Dean Stanton fan knows.


This is only possible because the government gives the car repossessors the legal power to take the car, and will enforce their right to do so if it's contested.
   1171. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5536910)
1166

You need to re-read and consider the rest of my post 1164.

As the umpire said it ain't nothing 'til I call it. And the umpire, if behind the scenes, is the government.
   1172. Morty Causa Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5536914)
If it weren't for the government Hatfield-McCoy principle would dominate. That's what the point of the law and government is--to get out of that rut.

(Jared Diamond's article, "Vengeance is Mine", in The New Yorker of some years back brilliantly illuminates this on an elemental/tribal level.)
   1173. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5536915)
This is only possible because the government gives the car repossessors the legal power to take the car, and will enforce their right to do so if it's contested.


This doesn't become any more true on the 1,453rd repetition.
   1174. BrianBrianson Posted: September 22, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5536919)
This doesn't become any more true on the 1,453rd repetition.


Of course not. It remains the same 100% true it's always been. It just seems like you need to be reminded once more.
   1175. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5536922)
Of course not.


Or the 1,454th repetition.

It's a silly claim; akin to saying people can only masturbate (*) because government will enforce their right to do so if someone contests it, and therefore people can only masturbate because there's a government.

(*) Seems to be a recent theme around here, might as well use it where it actually can prove an actual point.
   1176. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5536926)
But he also lays out the usual dorm-room BS about how a prehistory of hunting the mighty mammoth while producing billions and billions of mighty sperm in the mighty sperm sack (*) mean that current gender inegalities "may" (he's that careful) be the natural result of immutable evolutionary differences, a result we tamper with at our peril. Which is (a) an evolutionary just-so story and (b) irrelevant to corporate policy in any case.
As opposed to the PC BS about how women and men are identical and any differences in behavior are just due to socialization, and they would be interested in exactly the same things at exactly the same rates and performance exactly the same at them if not for discrimination?

And, no, it's not irrelevant to corporate policy. If differences in outcomes are due to discrimination, then any continuing differences in outcomes prove the need to double and redouble efforts to rectify that discrimination. No matter how hard it is to find and eliminate, it must be there, because otherwise everything would be 50/50. On the other hand, if there are other explanations, then at some point one can say, "You know, we have done everything necessary, and we can just treat people equally."
   1177. BrianBrianson Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5536927)
If there was no government, you could still have a wank - plenty of animals do.

You could, I guess, write contracts. But there'd be no meaningful enforcement. You come to repossess my car, I say, no, you can't. We're at an impasse we can solve with violence, but that's it - the contract is meaningless.
   1178. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5536930)
You could, I guess, write contracts. But there'd be no meaningful enforcement.


Goons.
   1179. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5536931)
If a Communist state taxed your earnings at 100% and redistributed it along classic Communist lines,** but otherwise left you alone,
Uh, that's like saying, "If the intruder in your home raped you and then shot you in the head, but otherwise didn't bother you..."
   1180. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5536938)
What other "avenues"? Where comes this money if not from people's labor?
The single land value tax.
   1181. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5536941)
If a Communist state taxed your earnings at 100% and redistributed it along classic Communist lines,** but otherwise left you alone,

Uh, that's like saying, "If the intruder in your home raped you and then shot you in the head, but otherwise didn't bother you..."


Or "If the government and 95% of its white citizens pre-determined at the time of your birth that you'd have no rights that any white man was due to respect, but otherwise let you alone..."

Of course in the real world that last hypothetical was quite a bit more than a hypothetical, but then since libertarians often live in purely hypothetical worlds, your ignorance of the real world is understandable.
   1182. The Good Face Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5536945)
As opposed to the PC BS about how women and men are identical and any differences in behavior are just due to socialization, and they would be interested in exactly the same things at exactly the same rates and performance exactly the same at them if not for discrimination?


I don't think most lefty elites (academics aside, those people just live in their own, self-created intentional sub-realities) actually believe this stuff anymore than elite Soviet officials actually believed in Communism by the end of the Brezhnev years. It's just a pretext for political action that rewards supporters and punishes enemies.
   1183. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5536946)
You could, I guess, write contracts. But there'd be no meaningful enforcement. You come to repossess my car, I say, no, you can't. We're at an impasse we can solve with violence, but that's it - the contract is meaningless.
If we're on a desert island, that's true. If we're living among other people, it isn't. Whether you live up to your contract will affect how others deal with you.
   1184. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5536947)
Or "If the government and 95% of its white citizens pre-determined at the time of your birth that you'd have no rights that any white man was due to respect, but otherwise let you alone..." Of course in the real world that last hypothetical was quite a bit more than a hypothetical,


Actually, no it wasn't -- which is why blacks in the South were ultimately able to secure their legal equality.

Millions and millions and millions of white people in the US respected the rights of blacks in the South, including against other white people. This isn't even debatable.

   1185. Greg K Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5536948)
I don't think most lefty elites (academics aside, those people just live in their own, self-created intentional sub-realities) actually believe this stuff anymore than elite Soviet officials actually believed in Communism by the end of the Brezhnev years. It's just a pretext for political action that rewards supporters and punishes enemies.

Zizek likes to say that in the Yugoslavia he grew up in, actually being an ideological true-believer was a sure fire way to never be allowed within 1,000 feet of the apparatus of the government.

Zizek says lots of fun stuff!
   1186. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5536951)
Whether you live up to your contract will affect how others deal with you.

ORLY? The current President was shown to have violated all kinds of business contracts. No one cared even before he became President because he just litigated the people whose contracts he violated into the dust; and if anyone who followed could make money, they also didn't care.
   1187. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5536952)
If we're on a desert island, that's true. If we're living among other people, it isn't. Whether you live up to your contract will affect how others deal with you.


Credit ratings agencies in the US are private. There was a time in US history when currencies were private and private entities published information about their quality.

Etc., etc.
   1188. Ishmael Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:26 PM (#5536955)
The single land value tax.

What do you make of the LVT, DMN?

I've heard interesting Libertarian positions on either side of the issue.

EDIT: e.g. Friedman's "least bad tax."
   1189. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5536960)
McCain is a NO on Graham-Cassidy:


(CNN)Sen. John McCain announced Friday in a statement that he cannot "in good conscience" vote for the GOP's latest plan to overhaul Obamacare, likely ending Republicans' latest effort to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act.
"I cannot in good conscience vote for the Graham-Cassidy proposal," the Arizona Republican said in a statement. "I believe we could do better working together, Republicans and Democrats, and have not yet really tried. Nor could I support it without knowing how much it will cost, how it will (affect) insurance premiums, and how many people will be helped or hurt by it. Without a full CBO score, which won't be available by the end of the month, we won't have reliable answers to any of those questions."


CNN
   1190. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5536966)
It's not only a stupid, nonsensical claim, it's especially rich coming from a lawyer. In absence of a government to implement legal consequences, a lawyer's work has absolutely zero value. More respectable professions have universal utility, even a ditch-digger can ply his trade anywhere in the world. A mere lawyer moves to another country and invalidates a majority of their knowledge base because their entire utility derives from their government's internal values.


Next thing you'll tell me is that they viciously defend the power of "the law" and undermine the power of "non-state sanctioned violence" because they excel at pedantic linguistic nitpicking and suck at actually defending real things in the world.
   1191. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5536967)
Full text of McCain's statement:


"As I have repeatedly stressed, health care reform legislation ought to be the product of regular order in the Senate. Committees of jurisdiction should mark up legislation with input from all committee members, and send their bill to the floor for debate and amendment. That is the only way we might achieve bipartisan consensus on lasting reform, without which a policy that affects one-fifth of our economy and every single American family will be subject to reversal with every change of administration and congressional majority.

"I would consider supporting legislation similar to that offered by my friends Senators Graham and Cassidy were it the product of extensive hearings, debate and amendment. But that has not been the case. Instead, the specter of September 30th budget reconciliation deadline has hung over this entire process.

"We should not be content to pass health care legislation on a party-line basis, as Democrats did when they rammed Obamacare through Congress in 2009. If we do so, our success could be as short-lived as theirs when the political winds shift, as they regularly do. The issue is too important, and too many lives are at risk, for us to leave the American people guessing from one election to the next whether and how they will acquire health insurance. A bill of this impact requires a bipartisan approach.

"Senators Alexander and Murray have been negotiating in good faith to fix some of the problems with Obamacare. But I fear that the prospect of one last attempt at a strictly Republican bill has left the impression that their efforts cannot succeed. I hope they will resume their work should this last attempt at a partisan solution fail.

"I cannot in good conscience vote for the Graham-Cassidy proposal. I believe we could do better working together, Republicans and Democrats, and have not yet really tried. Nor could I support it without knowing how much it will cost, how it will effect insurance premiums, and how many people will be helped or hurt by it. Without a full CBO score, which won't be available by the end of the month, we won't have reliable answers to any of those questions.

"I take no pleasure in announcing my opposition. Far from it. The bill's authors are my dear friends, and I think the world of them. I know they are acting consistently with their beliefs and sense of what is best for the country. So am I.

"I hope that in the months ahead, we can join with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to arrive at a compromise solution that is acceptable to most of us, and serves the interests of Americans as best we can."
   1192. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5536969)
He said he doesn’t believe you, and you deserve it.


Tell him to go back to that nap he was apparently taking in the 1940s.
   1193. BDC Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5536971)
And, no, it's not irrelevant to corporate policy. If differences in outcomes are due to discrimination, then any continuing differences in outcomes prove the need to double and redouble efforts to rectify that discrimination. No matter how hard it is to find and eliminate, it must be there, because otherwise everything would be 50/50. On the other hand, if there are other explanations, then at some point one can say, "You know, we have done everything necessary, and we can just treat people equally."

In the abstract. In reality, you've got an industry that has been a boys' club since its inception, and there are a lot of practical reasons for being watchful as hawks about gender bias therein. Your warrant is that the few years Google has been in operation have reached natural gender perfection. I think there's grounds for skepticism about that.

I've said all along that Google may be a hellish place to work for all sorts of reasons, so my argument is more with Google Guy's application of quasi-science to workplace equity in general than with his specific beefs against Google.

I think most pernicious of his quasi-ideas is that (on aggregate) Man the Hunter always pursues High Status more than Woman the Suckler – hence any imbalance in pay and responsibility, in any industry or walk of life, can be explained away with reference to that catchall idea. That becomes the laziest of excuses for paying women less and treating their careers differently.
   1194. The Good Face Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5536972)
Zizek likes to say that in the Yugoslavia he grew up in, actually being an ideological true-believer was a sure fire way to never be allowed within 1,000 feet of the apparatus of the government.


That's pretty consistent with what I've heard from others who grew up behind the Iron Curtain. It usually doesn't take too long before all but the most deluded true believers figure out that Communism doesn't work. But the institutions that surround and support the regime are powerful levers of control, so might as well keep up the pretense and use them to maintain political power.
   1195. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5536973)
Public Enemy rerecorded "Bring the Noise" with Anthrax in 1991,


There are very few genre mashups that aged this poorly, for the record.
   1196. BDC Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5536974)
Millions and millions and millions of white people in the US respected the rights of blacks in the South, including against other white people. This isn't even debatable

It isn't even debatable because it's as vague as all hell and also quite eccentric.
   1197. Lassus Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5536976)
There are very few genre mashups that aged this poorly, for the record.

However, "few" is not "no".
   1198. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5536979)
However, "few" is not "no".


*nods*
   1199. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5536980)
It isn't even debatable because it's as vague as all hell and also quite eccentric.


That level of untethered idiocy has to have come from Sugar Bear, yeah?
   1200. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 22, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5536982)
It isn't even debatable because it's as vague as all hell and also quite eccentric.


We're talking here about an atmosphere in which Jim Crow has been repurposed as "totalitarian" and Andy is making wild claims that "95% of its white citizens pre-determined at the time of your birth that you'd have no rights that any white man was due to respect."

Given that atmosphere, I'll gladly take my chances with straightforward fact.
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