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Monday, September 18, 2017

OTP 18 September 2017: Ex-Baseball Star Darryl Strawberry Criticizes Jemele Hill, Praises POTUS: Trump is ‘A Great Man’

“I think no one should call anyone anything. President Trump, he’s a great man to me. He was always gracious to me. I really love him, his family, I was on his show and he’s always been kind to me… I’ve known him quite well and every time I’ve seen him and been around him he’s always been so gracious with me and I’m always grateful for that.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:53 AM | 1552 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: daryl strawberry, politics

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   1401. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:56 AM (#5537886)
In the past they would have been ostracized into irrelevance, or, even better, would have been forced to get their #### together and join society.


In the past, they would have just shut the #### up.


Young Loud & Snotty
   1402. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:10 AM (#5537888)
One reason I'm a fan of Zizek* is he amply demonstrates how reality is not nearly so stable that we can pin it down with philosophy, let alone politics. Today's radicals tend to become tomorrow's conservatives in time.

*how else would a obscure Hegelian/Lacanian from Slovenia become a rock star except through attention whoring? The point is he does it in intellectually interesting ways.

YMMV, largely dependent upon a taste for cinema and film criticism.
   1403. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:15 AM (#5537889)
And let Mueller, or Kushner's email, or our meager support of Puerto Rico, or the impending slap-fight with NK, except with nuclear weapons, get an appropriate level of attention?

Those are largely distractions from a more serious politics as well, but once you've given yourself over to politics as entertainment, why not football?
   1404. cmd600 Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:22 AM (#5537891)
The NFL per the CBA is supposed to fine players for not standing during the anthem.


Close, but no cigar.
   1405. cmd600 Posted: September 25, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5537893)
Those are largely distractions from a more serious politics as well, but once you've given yourself over to politics as entertainment, why not football?


Yeah, there's a lot more serious stuff than nuclear war and people living in desperate situations after a natural disaster.
   1406. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 25, 2017 at 06:47 AM (#5537903)
#1400:
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?



What a stupid, vile, and false premise.
   1407. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:17 AM (#5537906)
Nobody's content to be Norm anymore. Sad!

It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear.
   1408. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:17 AM (#5537907)
I remember before the Great War of Adventure in Iraq we were given the choice of being with America or with the terrorists. At the time, who knew Donald Trump stood with the terrorists?

Sean Hannity knew.
   1409. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:32 AM (#5537912)
#1400:
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?

What a stupid, vile, and false premise.

Would anyone be surprised if Ray will now say he was just passing along Trump's opinion, and not endorsing it?

   1410. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:34 AM (#5537914)
Yeah, there's a lot more serious stuff than nuclear war and people living in desperate situations after a natural disaster.

Learn to stop worrying and love the bomb.
   1411. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:46 AM (#5537918)
What a stupid, vile, and false premise.


But without stupid, vile, and false premises there would be so much less traffic on this thread. It is a service Ray does my man.
   1412. Ishmael Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:52 AM (#5537920)
Looks like Frauke Petry has left AfD.

It's not surprising, really, as there was an unresolved power struggle between Petry and the rest of the leadership. It's a hell of a time to do it.
   1413. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:57 AM (#5537925)
I submitted a new thread, by the way.
   1414. JJ1986 Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:58 AM (#5537926)
Aside from one Broncos d-lineman, pretty much everyone related to the NFL came out in favor of America.
   1415. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5537929)
Frauke Petry has left AfD.

Definitely their loss. She strikes me as too independent-minded to toe a party line when it gets down to governing.

In my last NPR update, they reported that Merkel's party had won a majority in parliament. Unfortunately, such hackery is the rule for US journalism now.
   1416. Greg K Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:17 AM (#5537935)
Today's radicals tend to become tomorrow's conservatives in time.

Mike Duncan makes a point like this in his Revolutions Podcast. A guy like Lafayette can go from liberal advocate, to dangerous revolutionary, to defender of the status quo, to evil reactionary, to traitor, to moderate liberal, and back to republican revolutionary hero, back to reactionary sell out again.

Even though his political views didn't change at all. The spectrum on which he was measured just went through some radical shifts. Of course, it was the French Revolution, so the time frame was a bit condensed. "Tomorrow" was actually "five minutes from now".
   1417. Greg K Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5537937)
I think Petry was effectively muscled out of the party back in April for trying to moderate some of the "we shouldn't feel bad about the holocaust" noises.

I think she's a casualty of the far-right trying to figure out how to transition from a group feeding off a general sense of anxiety into something with a coherent political message.
   1418. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5537941)
One reason I'm a fan of Zizek*


Is because he's the Platonic form of preening empty vessel you aspire to be.
   1419. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5537942)
Of course, it was the French Revolution, so the time frame was a bit condensed. "Tomorrow" was actually "five minutes from now".

Even moreso now in our advanced technological age.

On a related note: Terror Management Theory
   1420. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:44 AM (#5537944)
he's the Platonic form of preening empty vessel you aspire to be.


You're a butterfly, and butterflies are free to fly away.
   1421. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5537947)
What a stupid, vile, and false premise.


To be fair, Ray's reading of Trump's positioning - "you're either with America and The Flag, or you're with those uppity niggers" is precisely how it plays to his base, which is what he as up to when he ran that thing out there in his Alabama rally. Alas, it's not surprising that Ray is willing to cuddle up with this #### rather than oppose Trump and risk being mistaken for a "modern liberal." His victim complex is very, very strong.

To the idiotic line of argument that taking a knee was "about Trump," Kaepernick's original decision to sit during the anthem was in August of 2016. He sat during all of the 49er's preseason, though no one took any notice of the act until the third game on August 26. The previous two games (8/14 and 8/20) had zero coverage. The protest gained coverage only when an unrelated tweet showed him sitting behind his teammates for the 8/26 game.

After the press started asking, Kaepernick held a press conference and explained that he was sitting as a silent protest against the oppression of people of color and against police brutality.

"I'm going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed. To me, this is something that has to change. When there's significant change and I feel that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, and this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand."

"This stand wasn’t for me. This is because I’m seeing things happen to people that don’t have a voice, people that don’t have a platform to talk and have their voices heard, and effect change. So I’m in the position where I can do that and I’m going to do that for people that can’t."


The observant reader - so probably not Ray - will note the lack of any mention of Donald Trump. Because Kaepernick's protest were never about Donald Trump. They're a protest against police brutality and the routine killing of black men by the police. They're a "Black Lives Matter" protest. And Kaepernick's statement makes it clear that he is sitting because he doesn't believe the nation is living up to it's ideals, and that he will stand once again if "the flag" were to begin to do represent those ideals better.

Of course Trump and his followers simply see black men not bowing before the alter and go ballistic. And Ray... Well, Ray just defends Trump out of habit at this point.

In other news, the press cycle isn't focusing on the GOP's ########### of "repeal and replace," volume 3.
   1422. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 08:50 AM (#5537949)
"I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening. People are dying in vain because this country isn’t holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That’s something that’s not happening. I’ve seen videos, I’ve seen circumstances where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they fought have for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for, on our land. That’s not right."
- Colin Kaepernick, 8/28/2016
   1423. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5537952)
From the time the protest gained attention, Kaepernick reiterated he was not doing it to be anti-American or anti-military or to disrespect troops. He was doing it to bring serious social issues to light and try to evoke change. That stance led to him slightly adjusting the protest. Kaepernick met with former Green Beret and brief NFL long snapper Nate Boyer, and after the discussion decided to shift from sitting to taking a knee during the anthem.

"We were talking to [Boyer] about how can we get the message back on track and not take away from the military, not take away from fighting for our country, but keep the focus on what the issues really are. And as we talked about it, we came up with taking a knee. Because there are issues that still need to be addressed and it was also a way to show more respect to the men and women who fight for this country."
   1424. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:28 AM (#5537963)
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?



Miss Riefenstahl - Ray is ready for his closeup...
   1425. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5537965)
By the way, Ray: you know what Trump said about anthem protesters, and how he said it? That's what he needed to do with Nazis, if he wanted to convince any non-frivolous person that he opposed them. And he needed to do it the first time, not under pressure. Or with a clenched jaw. Oh, and notice how he didn't say that many of the anthem protesters were fine people? And how he didn't call for the Nazis to be fired?
   1426. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5537972)
Give Ray a break, people. This board needs a Trump apologist, it's a tough job, show some compassion.
   1427. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5537977)
I just love how NFL players are "son[s] of biitch[es]," but the KKK are "very fine people."

EDIT: or y'know...what David said, far better than I. What's your pleasure, David?
   1428. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:43 AM (#5537978)
This Ray who deserves a break-- is he the same Ray who approximately five minutes ago was going on about how awful it was for liberals to demonize people, and mockingly wishing them "good luck" as they tried to pursue that insulting strategy in future elections?
   1429. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5537981)
Clearly he's addled.
   1430. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:52 AM (#5537985)
Here's another thing that grinds my gears...

In a Tweet this morning, Prez 45 declared that "the issue of kneeling has nothing to do with race. It's about respect for our Country, Flag and National Anthem. NFL must respect this!"

Riiiiiight...Because he can look into each player's heart and mind and know why they're protesting. So in addition to being the omnipotent, all powerful, Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler, he's also a seer, a soothsayer and The Oracle.

What a ####### farce...
   1431. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5537991)
It's about respect for our Country, Flag and National Anthem. NFL must respect this!"


To be fair, if the NFL were to break with the militaristic jingoism and highstepping, it would probably represent a serious dent in the propaganda machine Trump needs to prosper for his authoritarian dreams to come to fruition.
   1432. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5537993)
I don't like people who do that ####, especially for the worn-out bogus reasons ignorant reasons these people are saying they are doing it for, but I dislike people who try to stop them even more. One disgusts me; the other scares the hell out of me.
   1433. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5537994)
Let's be extremely generous to Ray's interpretation of Trump's statements. Not to be generous to Ray or Trump, but to point out the absurdity of defending Trump even under the most generous of interpretations.

So, the many fine people thing. Under the most generous of interpretations, this refers to the people who showed up to peacefully protest the removal of statues, and who left as soon as they discovered it was a White supremacist rally. Knowing nothing more about these people than this, Trump calls them fine people.

Now the anthem protesters. Without knowing anything more about these people than the fact that they are not standing during the national anthem, they are SOBs who should lose their jobs.

So again, under the most generous possible interpretation of the many fine people statement, an interpretation which is almost certainly not correct, protest the removal of a statue of a traitor who took up arms against this country, you are a very fine person. Refuse to stand for the National Anthem in protest of police brutality, you are an SOB who should be fired.
   1434. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:01 AM (#5537996)
The best Trump tweet this weekend was the one in which the validation-seeking vacuum actually thought the players and owners locking arms were showing support for him:
Great solidarity for our National Anthem and for our Country. Standing with locked arms is good, kneeling is not acceptable. Bad ratings!
   1435. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:10 AM (#5538001)
I refuse to get worked up about the nonsense Trump tweets or says. Yes, in theory Presidents have an obligation ... blah, blah, blah ... but that ship sailed long ago, so I have given Trump his demerit and moved on.

Now stuff he and his administration actually do ... that matters to me. And to be clear I think it perfectly fine for other people to get emotional every time the GOP leader says something dumb, but at this point I mostly just expect abnormal, aberrant, and abhorrent behavior from him. Basically, he can't sink any further in my estimation on that front, so why bother beating that dead horse.

It is fun to watch the Trumpkins run around and defend the indefensible though, that remains entertaining.
   1436. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5538002)
Soundtrack to Ken Burns' Vietnam:

Disc 1:
1. A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall - Bob Dylan (4 out of 4 stars)
2. Hello Vietnam - Johnny Wright (4 out of 4 stars)
3. It's My Life - The Animals (4 out of 4 stars)
4. Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire (4 out of 4 stars)
5. Turn Turn Turn - The Byrds (4 out of 4 stars)
6. Masters Of War - The Staple Singers (4 out of 4 stars)
7. Mustang Sally - Wilson Pickett (4 out of 4 stars)
8. Smokestack Lightnin' - Howlin' Wolf (4 out of 4 stars)
9. Backlash Blues - Nina Simone Simms (4 out of 4 stars)
10. The Sound Of Silence - Simon & Garfunkel (4 out of 4 stars)
11. One Too Many Mornings - Bob Dylan (4 out of 4 stars)
12. Ain't Too Proud To Beg - The Temptations (4 out of 4 stars)
13. Are You Experienced? - The Jimi Hendrix Experience (4 out of 4 stars)
14. I'm A Man - The Spencer Davis Group (4 out of 4 stars)
15. Green Onions - Booker T & The MG's (4 out of 4 stars)
16. Strange Brew - Cream (4 out of 4 stars)
17. Waist Deep In The Big Muddy (Live) - Pete Seeger (4 out of 4 stars)
18. A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum (4 out of 4 stars)
19. The Lord Is In This Place - Fairport Convention (3 1/2 out of 4 stars)
20. For What It's Worth - Buffalo Springfield (4 out of 4 stars)

Disc 2:
1. Don't Think Twice, It's All Right - Bob Dylan (4 out of 4 stars)
2. Piece Of My Heart - Big Brother & The Holding Company (4 out of 4 stars)
3. Magic Carpet Ride - Steppenwolf (4 out of 4 stars)
4. Tell The Truth - Otis Redding (4 out of 4 stars)
5. The Letter - The Box Tops (3 1/2 out of 4 stars)
6. Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival (4 out of 4 stars)
7. Soul Sacrifice - Santana (4 out of 4 stars)
8. Okie From Muskogee - Merle Haggard And The Strangers (4 out of 4 stars)
9. The Thrill Is Gone - B. B. King
10. Psychedelic Shack - The Temptations
11. Ohio - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
12. Get Together - The Youngbloods
13. Gimme Shelter - The Rolling Stones
14. Tail Dragger - Link Wray
15. America The Beautiful - Ray Charles
16. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
17. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon & Garfunkel
18. Let It Be (Remastered 2015) - The Beatles


For What It's Worth closes Disc 1!
   1437. BDC Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:17 AM (#5538005)
That can't be the correct soundtrack, it does not include The Minstrel Boy and Take Me Out to the Ballgame.
   1438. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5538008)
Forrest Gump says, "Isn't that soundtrack a little too obvious?"
   1439. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5538011)
Given that Burns is trying to make the definitive documentary - and that it will probably watched decades hence by viewers that are increasingly distanced from the culture of the 60s and early 70s - it is entirely appropriate to include so many classics.

But no, it's not the soundtrack I would have chosen.

There are a few "deep cuts" in there.
   1440. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5538014)
Soundtrack to Ken Burns' Vietnam:


Seems like a reasonable selection of music, but without the context in the documentary it is hard* to either praise or criticize the selections.

* OK, this is the internet so criticizing anything in any context is easy, but you know what I mean.
   1441. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5538017)
#1400:
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?


What a stupid, vile, and false premise.


I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.
   1442. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5538018)
I don't like people who do that ####, especially for the worn-out bogus reasons ignorant reasons these people are saying they are doing it for, but I dislike people who try to stop them even more. One disgusts me; the other scares the hell out of me.


The coloreds are kneeling, Morty. ON YOUR LAWN!
   1443. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5538020)
That's what he needed to do with Nazis, if he wanted to convince any non-frivolous person that he opposed them

So it would have convinced you? And are you thus convinced that he's sincere in his antipathy in this case?
   1444. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5538022)

I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.


This is incoherent. Is he supposed to quit? Announce that he will no longer use public roads or utilities?
   1445. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5538023)
It is fun to watch the Trumpkins run around and defend the indefensible though, that remains entertaining.

So when Ray returns from leaving us after #1400**, will he....

1. Defend Trump's statement as an accurate portrayal of reality

2. Say he wasn't endorsing Trump's statement, only noting it

3. Wait for this week's thread to expire and not bring up the point during the new thread


**
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?


EDIT: Okay, I see he's now defending the statement, and I'll give him credit for not ducking.
   1446. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5538024)
allowed one to earn.


*allowed*
   1447. BDC Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5538025)
I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn

So there's an income ceiling on political expression?
   1448. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5538026)
I'm going to continue to stand sit with the people that are being oppressed.
   1449. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5538027)
I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.


So just to be clear, Ray, when you were banging on about "the problem with Ferguson is that they're not protesting peacefully" back then, you were full of ####?
   1450. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:29 AM (#5538029)
So there's an income ceiling on political expression?


I wonder if Ray would find it equally vile if millionaire athlete's protested the anthem out of solidarity with other taxes-are-slavery victims.
   1451. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:30 AM (#5538030)
I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.


I think it's vile to ##### about taxes, given that the earnings from which those taxes are deducted are only possible because the country has allowed those earnings to begin with.
   1452. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5538033)
I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.


Deliberately is a trifle redundant. Generally refusal to do something is deliberate, especially when it is a protest. But no matter.

Part of "reaping the fruit" of freedom IS protesting the parts of the nation one doesn't like in a manner many people don't approve of. That is kind of the point of freedom. Freedom is about allowance to do things some (or many) don't find acceptable.

No one is harmed by kneeling - other than some very special snowflakes in desperate need of ice cream. It is like burning the flag in that way. It makes a statement - not always the one intended - and offends many, while still showing the freedoms to protest that are part of America.

But yes, I am sorry for those who are so very offended and so fragile that they become delusional on the subject.
   1453. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5538036)
To be fair, Ray's reading of Trump's positioning - "you're either with America and The Flag, or you're with those uppity niggers" is precisely how it plays to his base, which is what he as up to when he ran that thing out there in his Alabama rally.


Go learn some history. Desecrating the flag is not a narrow racial issue. For example the protests of the Vietnam war.
   1454. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5538037)
Given that Burns is trying to make the definitive documentary

Not a given. At best he's made a fund-raising commercial for PBS.
   1455. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5538038)
Now everyone is sympathizing with the NFL, and entirely forgetting that it was the NFL that fired Kaepernick.

People are losing their #### again.
   1456. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5538039)
Meta-observation - note the very high ratings Ray has gotten from this and other posts. Ray is a very successful poster and those criticizing him should look in the mirror and realize how weak their stance is. They are just jealous of Ray's ratings. Make posting great again.
   1457. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5538040)
the earnings from which those taxes are deducted are only possible because the country has allowed those earnings to begin with

All rights are from the state, according to zonk and his fellow travellers.
   1458. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5538041)
Go learn some history.


Unintentional humor is still the best humor.
   1459. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5538043)
All rights are from the state, according to zonk and his fellow travellers.


Where else do they come from?
   1460. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5538044)
entirely forgetting that it was the NFL that fired Kaepernick.

So all the companies that wouldn't employ you as a lawyer fired you?
   1461. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5538046)
By the way, Ray: you know what Trump said about anthem protesters, and how he said it? That's what he needed to do with Nazis, if he wanted to convince any non-frivolous person that he opposed them. And he needed to do it the first time, not under pressure. Or with a clenched jaw. Oh, and notice how he didn't say that many of the anthem protesters were fine people? And how he didn't call for the Nazis to be fired?


This particular strain of TDS remains virulent. Trump fully condemned the Nazis.

And he never called any Nazis fine people. You're lying about that.

As for not calling for Nazis to be fired, the NFL issue is specifically linked to employment: the players are protesting as players, while in uniform, in the course of their employment. The Nazis were protesting standalone and not linked to their employment.
   1462. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5538047)
For What It's Worth closes Disc 1!


Now there's a shocker.

The soundtrack utterly defines the term "cliche."
   1463. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5538048)
I just love how NFL players are "son[s] of biitch[es]," but the KKK are "very fine people."

EDIT: or y'know...what David said, far better than I. What's your pleasure, David?


Both you and David are lying.
   1464. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5538050)
the NFL issue is specifically linked to employment: the players are protesting as players, while in uniform, in the course of their employment


Under contract and a collectively bargained CBA. But why bother to care about that when there are virtues to signal?
   1465. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5538051)
Both you and David are lying.


You should call Jason. You two could curl up in your reality denying balls together. For warmth. No homo.
   1466. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5538053)
No "Someday We'll Be Together"?
   1467. Lassus Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5538054)
The soundtrack utterly defines the term "cliche."

Because playing songs no one cared about regarding an era known for music would be a better production decision.
   1468. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5538055)
So there's an income ceiling on political expression?

More broadly, one can deduce that Ray considers protests against the US acceptable only if (1) the protestor doesn't live in the US, or (2) lives in the US, but derives no benefit whatsoever from living there (or, if that's not an accurate characterization Ray can feel free to clarify what level of "fruits" one can reap and still, in Ray's view, acceptably protest).

Incoherent indeed. So much so, a cynic might consider it disingenuous.
   1469. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5538056)
And he never called any Nazis fine people. You're lying about that.



David didn't say he did. Does that make you a liar? Trick question, because as you have said many times you don't care about liars, especially not when Presidents lie.
   1470. Howie Menckel Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5538057)
no offense to The Staple Singers in post 1436, but you cannot use any version of "Masters of War" but Dylan's. a voice that arguably undercuts some of his great songs - many of them covered beautifully - is just right for that one. an angry snarl is the proper play there.

I will take solace in the fact that he used Janis Joplin's "Piece of My Heart" and not the cover by Faith Hill (no kidding; it's far more horrific than you can imagine. an old boyfriend of Joplin once said that she was doomed because she was so supernaturally empathetic that every ounce of suffering experienced by a friend overwhelmed her. Faith Hill is.... pretty.).
   1471. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5538059)
I think it's vile to deliberately refuse to stand for the anthem as a protest against the country while reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.

I think it's vile to ##### about taxes, given that the earnings from which those taxes are deducted are only possible because the country has allowed those earnings to begin with.


And, as flogged quite vigorously last week (including a fairly brutal sodomizing of the corpse by Morty), making those claims as someone whose income is derived solely as a result of being a licensed representative of the government's legal system is especially ridiculous. If there's one group that deserves to be deprived of earnings at gunpoint it's a lawyers, because it's their ability to deprive others of their earnings at gunpoint that forms the entire framework of their profession.
   1472. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5538060)
More broadly, one can deduce that Ray considers protests against the US acceptable only if ...


(3) Done in quiet rooms.
   1473. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5538061)
no offense to The Staple Singers in post 1436, but you cannot use any version of "Masters of War" but Dylan's.


Maybe he looked at the list and said "I have enough Dylan, but I still want that song."
   1474. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5538063)
. So in addition to being the omnipotent, all powerful, Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler, he's also a seer, a soothsayer and The Oracle.

That's how his tweets are received, for or against. Instead of like all the other fools on Twitter writing the first thing that pops in their heads.

Trump can only distract an already distracted nation.
   1475. BrianBrianson Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5538064)
And he never called any Nazis fine people. You're lying about that.


Well, he didn't actually make it clear. What he actually said that there were some very fine people among the Nazis, Klansmen, and their supporters. Whether he meant the Nazis, or the people who support Nazis and Nazism but are too chickenshit to be Nazis themselves, that is indeed harder to say.
   1476. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5538065)
All rights are from the state, according to zonk and his fellow travellers.

Where else do they come from?


Is it watery tarts lobbing scimitars?
   1477. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5538066)
If your soundtrack for Vietnam doesn't include this one, it's missing out.

Một ngàn năm nô lệ giặc tầu
một trăm năm đô hộ giặc tây
hai mươi năm nội chiến từng ngày
gia tài của mẹ, để lại cho con
gia tài của mẹ, là nước Việt buồn

Một ngàn năm nô lệ giặc tầu
một trăm năm đô hộ giặc tây
hai mươi năm nội chiến từng ngày
gia tài của mẹ, một rừng xương khô
gia tài của mẹ, một núi đầy mồ

Dạy cho con tiếng nói thật thà
mẹ mong con chớ quên màu da
con chớ quên màu da, nước Việt xưa
mẹ mong trông con mau bước về nhà
mẹ mong con lũ con đường xa
ôi lũ con cùng cha, quên hận thù

Một ngàn năm nô lệ giặc tầu
một trăm năm đô hộ giặc tây
hai mươi năm nội chiến từng ngày
gia tài của mẹ, ruộng đồng khô khan
gia tài của mẹ, nhà cháy từng hàng

Một ngàn năm nô lệ giặc tầu
một trăm năm đô hộ giặc tây
hai mươi năm nội chiến từng ngày
gia tài của mẹ, một bọn lai căng
gia tài của mẹ, một lũ bội tình.

English version

A thousand years of Chinese reign.
A hundred years of French domain.
Twenty years fighting brothers each day,
A mother's fate, left for her child,
A mother's fate, a land defiled.

A thousand years of Chinese reign.
A hundred years of French domain.
Twenty years fighting brothers each day,
A mother's fate, bones left to dry,
And graves that fill a mountain high.

Refrain:
Teach your children to speak their minds.
Don't let them forget their kind--
Never forget their kind, from old Viet land.
Mother wait for your kids to come home,
Kids who now so far away roam.
Children of one father, be reconciled.

A thousand years of Chinese reign.
A hundred years of French domain.
Twenty years fighting brothers each day.
A mother's fate, our fields so dead,
And rows of homes in flames so red.

A thousand years of Chinese reign.
A hundred years of French domain.
Twenty years fighting brothers each day.
A mother's fate, her kids half-breeds,
Her kids filled with disloyalty.

(Refrain)

Trịnh Công Sơn
   1478. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5538067)
I just love how NFL players are "son[s] of biitch[es]," but the KKK are "very fine people."

EDIT: or y'know...what David said, far better than I. What's your pleasure, David?


Both you and David are lying.


My interpretation of what was said and my opinion on it. By definition, that cannot be a lie.

By your definition, Alex Jones is also a liar.
   1479. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5538068)
This particular strain of TDS remains virulent. Trump fully condemned the Nazis.

Deflection, and a weak one at that. The issue, of course, would be obvious even if David hadn't spelled it out explicitly in the very post you're responding to: Even if one concedes the "fully condemned the Nazis" point, said "full condemnation" didn't take place until people on all parts of the political spectrum called the world's most prominent loudmouth out for his mysteriously muted response to, of all things, a white supremacist rally, which in and of itself calls the sincerity of his "full condemnation" into question. And the contrast between his usual full-throated attack mode, employed per usual against NFL players protesting, and his "fine people" response to the Charlottesville incident is both striking and telling.

   1480. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5538069)
More broadly, one can deduce that Ray considers protests against the US acceptable only if ...

(3) Done in quiet rooms.


Indeed, that's what made Donald Trump's principled stand against the Great War of Adventure in Iraq so palatable to the Dittohead Right. He did it in secret, limited to pillow talk with Sean Hannity. That's the sort of political protest we can take pride in.
   1481. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5538070)
the earnings from which those taxes are deducted are only possible because the country has allowed those earnings to begin with

All rights are from the state, according to zonk and his fellow travellers.


Take it up with Ray...

He's the one that's suddenly developed a hard-on for earnings the country has allowed.

That said, while I remain flattered by your crush on me - I remain as not interested as ever.
   1482. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:48 AM (#5538073)
Dylan's. a voice that arguably undercuts some of his great songs - many of them covered beautifully - is just right for that one. an angry snarl is the proper play there.


Next on my reading list
   1483. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5538074)
reaping the fruits of what the country has allowed one to earn.

This should be quoted in Ray's face, every time he complains about paying taxes, from here on out until eternity.
   1484. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5538076)
This is incoherent. Is he supposed to quit? Announce that he will no longer use public roads or utilities?


Quit, move out of the country, and not make another dime here.

   1485. The Good Face Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5538079)
Basically what Trump is doing is forcing the NFL to take a stand:

Are you for America or against it?


It's good politics on Trump's part. He's forcing people into an uncomfortable position; since he's LITERALLY Hitler, they can't simply do what he says he wants and stand for the national anthem. But by kneeling, now they're a bunch of unpatriotic, spoiled millionaires refusing to stand for the national anthem.

Classic Trump; take a reasonable position with widespread mainstream support ("I think people should stand for the national anthem.") and frame it in such a way that his enemies can't resist losing their minds and taking the exact opposite position. And to the extent any of this diminishes popular support for the NFL, so much the better. Football in its current form can't be played safely and the NFL is reaping immense profits off the brain damage of its employees.
   1486. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5538080)
Quit, move out of the country, and not make another dime here.

You really should if you get so upset about a person exercising their right of free speech.
   1487. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5538081)
Quit, move out of the country, and not make another dime here.


Ray, this is lunacy.
   1488. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5538083)
Quit, move out of the country, and not make another dime here.

Luviterleavit, amirite?

Well, thanks for the clarity...

EDIT: I do believe this puts to rest any ongoing delusions that Ray's any sort of libertarian.
   1489. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5538084)
You really should if you get so upset about a person exercising their right of free speech.


This is incoherent. The very point of free speech is that I'm allowed to get upset at what someone says or does.

I'm not upset at the exercise of free speech; I'm "upset" at the speech.
   1490. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5538085)
I'm not upset at the exercise of free speech; I'm "upset" at the speech.



Thanks for the clarification, Archie...
   1491. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:00 AM (#5538086)
The very point of free speech is that I'm allowed to get upset at what someone says or does.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances; or proscribing the right of people to get churlish or snippety about contrary opinions.
   1492. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5538087)
I'm not upset at the exercise of free speech; I'm "upset" at the speech.

Indeed, to the point that you believe anyone who doesn't hew to your political orthodoxy should leave the country.

MAGA!
   1493. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5538089)
Where else do they come from?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.


Short form -- THE PEOPLE.

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect—that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few ... They ... consequently are instruments of injustice ... The fact, therefore, must be that the individuals, themselves, each, in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a contract with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.

-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man


Seriously, there's no need to look elsewhere for Trump's base, when its mirror image is right here.
   1494. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5538091)
Corrolary -- you spend countless hours arguing with Ray. Is more evidence needed?
   1495. The Good Face Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5538092)
It seems like just yesterday the lefties here were piously reminding us that "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences."
   1496. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5538093)
Classic Trump; take a reasonable position with widespread mainstream support ("I think people should stand for the national anthem.") and frame it in such a way that his enemies can't resist losing their minds and taking the exact opposite position. And to the extent any of this diminishes popular support for the NFL, so much the better. Football in its current form can't be played safely and the NFL is reaping immense profits off the brain damage of its employees.


The NFL has a problem. Because half the country loves the attacks on America from within... but half the country hates them. And thus half the NFL fans will find these protests distasteful -- and thus will find the NFL's chickenshit stance against them to be distasteful.

How many fans / how much revenue this will lose the NFL is hard to say. 0%? 2%? 5%? People are already turned off by the violence in the sport and so for many of them this could be a tipping point.

But the bottom line is that this shows that the NFL having the anthem was just for show, as it is for all sports. They think (thought) it will help their bottom line. What's the point of playing the anthem at your games if you're not going to defend the flag when your employees refuse to honor it?
   1497. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5538094)
I will say, the tension between "Don't like what's going on in the country? Well leave, then!" and the mockery zonk's been subjected to by the usual suspects for doing just that is a source of much amusement to me.
   1498. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5538095)
Indeed, to the point that you believe anyone who doesn't hew to your political orthodoxy should leave the country.

MAGA!


What's the MAGA thing? I've apparently missed a memo.
   1499. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5538096)
1491:

Is your point that the 1st amendment contradicts the post you quote? Because it doesn't.

   1500. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5538098)
The coloreds are kneeling, Morty. ON YOUR LAWN!

They better not harm my little jockey statue.
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