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Monday, September 18, 2017

OTP 18 September 2017: Ex-Baseball Star Darryl Strawberry Criticizes Jemele Hill, Praises POTUS: Trump is ‘A Great Man’

“I think no one should call anyone anything. President Trump, he’s a great man to me. He was always gracious to me. I really love him, his family, I was on his show and he’s always been kind to me… I’ve known him quite well and every time I’ve seen him and been around him he’s always been so gracious with me and I’m always grateful for that.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:53 AM | 1552 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: daryl strawberry, politics

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   901. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5536062)
Don't like it? Lick my sack.


The motto of every OTP in the history of ever.
   902. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5536063)
The meaning and number of senses of the word has changed since the rise of hip hop. It's not 1965 anymore.
   903. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5536064)
How can I forget you when you won't go away?


Absence makes the heart go fonder, I guess. The last thing I posted in this thread was on page one, three days ago, because I'm a normal person with a life, and as soon as I show up, bam, you're already back to trying to win the last war, like the French with the Maginot Line.

Watching you repeatedly slam your e-peen in a door and insist through gritted teeth that it didn't hurt was amusing for a while, but if you're never going to learn anything from your mistakes, what good are they? You played, you lost, and nobody cared, because neither of us are any more important to them than you claim that they are to you. Can't we just return to our collective discussion about the Daily Mail's coverage of Kanye West like reasonable people?
   904. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5536065)
The motto of every OTP in the history of ever.

Not to be contrary, but I can't say that quoted phrase has ever been one I've ascribed to.
   905. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5536070)
904

The motto of every OTP in the history of ever.

Not to be contrary, but I can't say that quoted phrase has ever been one I've ascribed to.


LOL. By all means, be contrary!

It's that there's an underlying "This is my opinion, like it or lump it!" vibe to the postings by the very fine people on both sides.

In my opinion, that is...
   906. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5536073)
I double dare any of you white ############# not to sing along with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMXN9-9MgjY

   907. BDC Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:48 PM (#5536075)
country joes fixin to die rag

That was the first song I thought of for 1960s anti-Vietnam-war tunes. Googling suggests it was in circulation as early as 1965 and was in wide release by 1967.

The Monkees' "Last Train to Clarksville" was 1966. Doesn't mention Vietnam directly but it's clear what it's about.

I thought too of John Prine's "Flag Decal," which was evidently not released till 1971, though (the year I started high school). He may have been singing it somewhat earlier, of course.

Steve Goodman's "Ballad of Penny Evans" was 1972. Which "late" date I guess is clear from the lyrics ("Tonight there's fifty thousand gone in that unhappy land"). I only mention it because it's such a great song.

I guess nobody's disputing that there were a lot of famous protest songs from the period. It's just interesting how many of them seeped into my rather sheltered head even when I was a kid. On the playgrounds of the day we might sing The Ballad of the Green Berets, but a little later we were singing "One, two, three what are we fightin' for?"
   908. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5536076)
It wasn't "if you don't like my opinion, lick my sack," it was, "if you want to lecture me about whether I can sing along with music I like and own, lick my sack."

   909. BDC Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5536078)
It wasn't "if you don't like my opinion, lick my sack," it was, "if you want to lecture me about whether I can sing along with music I like and own, lick my sack."

Are those the lyrics to the song you posted in #906?
   910. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5536079)
Kids born in 1996 or 1998 can't sing along with hip-hop songs published in 2005.

LOL, emoji, LOL.

It's not 1965 anymore, people. Really. It's not.
   911. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5536080)
It's that there's an underlying "This is my opinion, like it or lump it!" vibe to the postings by the very fine people on both sides.


I see what you did there.
   912. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5536081)
Are those the lyrics to the song you posted in #906?


Watch pretty lady while I slang my cane.
   913. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5536082)
In 1989, DFW co-wrote a book of essays on what was then called rap -- Signifying Rappers. He and his co-author repeated "the word."

It hasn't been empirically true that white people can't repeat rap lyrics for almost 30 years, probably more.
   914. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5536087)
I double dare any of you white ############# not to sing along with this:

OK.

What do I win?

(I sorta tapped out with Freestyle Fellowship.)
   915. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5536091)
I’ve written on these boards more than once that right-wing fundamentalists, of which there are more than those that are vocal about it, deny evolution while left-wing doctrinaire social engineering, of which likewise there is a plethora, denies that it has any effect on the mind and character of humans (like it does, you know, with other creatures) and their social systems, organizations, and intuitions. Rickey! seems to belong to the latter ilk. He’ll, of course, deny this, as all good liberals will, but they’ll just keep acting and behaving as if it means nothing.

He thinks that human beings didn’t come about in an environmental context (and the cultural context is also part of that environmental context) in which parameters and limitations about what humans can do, including mental doing, always have been in play. And this applies not only to physical traits but to the behavior that arises from those traits. And, moreover, there isn’t another you somewhere separate from this very human creature with all his failings. Rickey! and the many like him is mired in this mindset which is an essentially and quintessentially a non-materialistic religious view of man—that somehow nothing in man and his social organizations and cultural set-points necessitated development. We humans can just rise above it. (As the guy in the old Carter Country TV comedy show would say, “Handle it, handle it!) We, the White, were always able to treat the black and brown perfectly (but it doesn’t work the other way). Nothing that was had to be.

Rickey! waxing wroth incontinently and fulminating reveals the cliche New Left leftist that he is. Intolerant and totalitarian in mindset and words, in fact.

The response, my friend, is that this point of view is directly contradictory to the entire premise of American democracy.

No. American democracy contemplates that its inhabitants will have different, even contrary, views and interests, and democratic should serve to accommodate a winnowing of conflicting interest and views. Only people like you think there is only one true way.
   916. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:07 PM (#5536092)
Rickey! is one who I had in mind when I quoted P. B. Medawar upthread on some people being educated being their capacity for analytical thought. He's educated, but he still has mental senses and sensibilities of the fifth-grade class clown.
   917. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5536093)
No. American democracy contemplates that its inhabitants will have different, even contrary, views and interests, and democratic should serve to accommodate a winnowing of conflicting interest and views. Only people like you think there is only one true way.


I know it must be hard what with the senility, but try to keep up son. Literally the only view that I refuse to countenance is the view that the many should oppress the few because they can. Your above-it-all-mein is so 1989.
   918. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5536094)
How could I be trolling if even liberals on this page disagree?
So civility is a solely liberal trait? Thanks for the clarification.
As the "liberal" in question to whom you are presumably referring, let me clarify: TDF's position here is very 1990's. With the more or less total domination of pop culture by hip hop and its artistic descendants, this is not a position one can continually defend.
Again - you don't get to decide what offends someone else.

Let me put it this way - you can complain about your wife being lazy, or fat, or whatever; under no circumstances am I allowed to say the same things about your wife. Doesn't matter what you say, how many times you say it, what adjectives you use - you can say things about your wife that would be completely and totally out of line if I said them about her. Or how about your mom? Even your wife or kids can't say the same things about her that you can.

   919. The Good Face Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5536095)
The last thing I posted in this thread was on page one, three days ago, because I'm a normal person with a life


Which I didn't respond to because you're not all that interesting outside of your pathologies.

and as soon as I show up, bam, you're already back to trying to win the last war


Aside from being chronologically incorrect (I had quite a few posts today before I addressed you), your constant insistence that you're winning or you've won various exchanges here is kind of pathetic. You're such a closet case, so terrified of being seen as weak or feminine (or "dominated") that you constantly have to inform people that you're winning, that YOU'RE the dominant one here! That's why you always have to have the last word, that's why you can never let any slight, no matter how minor, go. And that's why I prod you. Because you can't do anything but respond. To do anything else would make you a loser, weak and dominated.

You played, you lost


Case in point.

Can't we just return to our collective discussion about the Daily Mail's coverage of Kanye West like reasonable people?


I don't know. Can you?
   920. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5536096)
In 1989, DFW co-wrote a book of essays on what was then called rap -- Signifying Rappers.


Which took its title from this old Schoolly D track. It's banned these days, since Schoolly didn't clear his sample for "Kashmir".
   921. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5536098)
911

It's that there's an underlying "This is my opinion, like it or lump it!" vibe to the postings by the very fine people on both sides.


I see what you did there.


I certainly hope so... [waggling cigar and raising eyebrows]
   922. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5536102)
Again - you don't get to decide what offends someone else.


No, others don't get to decide whether people can sing along with music in wide commercial distribution. Particularly when it invades the listeners' home.

If someone is "offended" by that, they need to grow up and learn how to live with other people.
   923. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5536104)
Which took its title from this old Schoolly D track. It's banned these days, since Schoolly didn't clear his sample for "Kashmir".


Lots of music from that era is in the same limbo. Tough to get one's hands, e.g., on early De La Soul.
   924. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5536105)
Aside from being chronologically incorrect (I had quite a few posts today before I addressed you), your constant insistence that you're winning or you've won various exchanges here is kind of pathetic.


Sure, but the minute I dropped into the thread to talk about other stuff, bam, you just had to pipe right up with a HI LOSER AND BY THE WAY I'M TOTALLY NOT INTO DUDES AND REALLY INTO SAYING THAT RIGHT NOW FOR NO PARTICULAR REASON WHATSOEVER. That's... kind of odd.

I have some friends that are gay, and I don't really care who or what you're into, as long as he or she is willing and able to consent. Beyond that? Really none of my business.
   925. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5536107)
you can say things about your wife that would be completely and totally out of line if I said them about her.

If I heard a friend of mine say their wife was fat or lazy or stupid I'd almost definitely tell them they were being an asshole. And totally out of line.


I don't misunderstand the entirety of your point, but regarding things one "can" or "can't" say, a lot of that morphs into "should" or "shouldn't" and all that is debatable.
   926. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5536108)
Lots of music from that era is in the same limbo.


Yeah, it's a shame. I really like old Public Enemy, but nobody these days can make beats the way the Bomb Squad did back then, because they'd get punched right in the wallet.
   927. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5536110)
Again - you don't get to decide what offends someone else.


I never said I did. I said that white girls singing along to a Kanye track *shouldn't* elicit outrage or offense. It's an antiquated argument. It fails to acknowledge how deeply hip hop culture has merged with and overtaken traditional "pop" culture. Your argument carried more heft and weight in the 90s, maybe even into the early 2000's, but at this point this complaint lands about as well as someone up in arms if a Brit singer calls a cigarette a "fag."
   928. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5536112)
the reactionary right has spent decades upon decades tactically dismantling faith in the core institutions of the American democracy. They have disembowled trust in academic expertise. They have utterly undermined the fail safe of an independent press. And they continue to press onward today, with their campaigns against "the deep state."

THEY are out to destroy us!

Sam obviously drinks from the pee jar, too.
   929. BDC Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5536118)
Greg's miscue above altered me that there seems to be a 377-comment sitcom thread that I have completely missed. Bet I could have run that baby aground after about 26 comments.
   930. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5536119)
As TDF still refuses to address the two questions I raised:

Should they not listen to music from a black artist if it has the n-word in it?

Should they not sing music from a black artist if it has the n-word in it?


...I'm forced to guess at his position, from which I will conclude -- and I think it's a fair conclusion -- that he thinks it's ok for white people to listen to such music from a black artist but not to sing along with such music.

And I think that's a massive step back for black people, actually. "White people shouldn't sing along to your music if you use the n-word." It segregates their music from that of white artists, and as a consequence stunts any financial or publicity success black artists might have.

It also presents a perception that white people are too good to sing along to certain music of black artists, and that black artists are doing something "wrong" by including the n-word or by marketing their music to white people.
   931. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5536122)
How could I be trolling if even liberals on this page disagree?

So civility is a solely liberal trait? Thanks for the clarification.


No, what I'm saying is that it's hard to describe something as right-wing trolling when even people on the left disagree WITH EACH OTHER.
   932. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5536123)
Your argument carried more heft and weight in the 90s, maybe even into the early 2000's,


I obviously agree with your argument here, but the counter-argument carried no heft in the 1990s. Rap/hip-hop "crossed over" sometime in the late 1980s, and never looked back. The idea that a white person couldn't "sing along" with, e.g., "I Don't Wanna Be Called Yo Niga," was insane in 1991.

   933. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5536124)
Yeah, it's a shame. I really like old Public Enemy, but nobody these days can make beats the way the Bomb Squad did back then, because they'd get punched right in the wallet.


Professor Griff said mean things about Jews, I demand all those records be banned.
   934. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5536126)
The problem with objecting to words you find offensive is that by objecting you are empowering those who use the words. The remedy, as judges use to tell attorneys, is in your client's hands. It's just words. Don't rise to the bait.

Second, as Steven Pinker noted long ago, even if you could prohibit a word being used, the only thing that will happen as long as the underlying feeling exists is that a new word will form to express that feeling. It's the feeling, not the word, that's the problem.
   935. madvillain Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5536129)
The problem with objecting to words you find offensive is that by objecting you are empowering those who use the words. The remedy, as judges use to tell attorneys, is in your client's hands. It's just words. Don't rise to the bait.


You are on quite the post modern BS tilt the last week. Jeez man, I haven't said anything but 90% of what you've posted lately is just mental masturbation.
   936. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5536133)
He said the m-word!

Now you'll never get to be surgeon general.
   937. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:53 PM (#5536134)
You are on quite the post modern BS tilt the last week. Jeez man, I haven't said anything but 90% of what you've posted lately is just mental masturbation.

I know those words....
   938. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5536139)
I know it must be hard what with the senility, but try to keep up son. Literally the only view that I refuse to countenance is the view that the many should oppress the few because they can. Your above-it-all-mein is so 1989.

I believe there are now tests to determine if your prefrontal cortex has developed as it should.
   939. madvillain Posted: September 21, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5536142)
If you want to talk about "reclaiming" words then fine do it. But don't just say "words are just words". Wasn't that what someone was yelling about above? Words obviously spring from attitudes. Calling them "just words" seems a bit off. Saying that by attempting to eliminate them or reclaim them you "empower" the idiots shouting "f@ggot" seems...off.
   940. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5536145)
Reclaiming my time.
   941. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:03 PM (#5536147)
Professor Griff said mean things about Jews, I demand all those records be banned.


Of all the (many, many) things to hold against Farrakhan, that one's right up there.
   942. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5536150)
Rap/hip-hop "crossed over" sometime in the late 1980s, and never looked back.


For what it's worth, the first rap song I remember gaining significant cultural currency in my lily-white school district was "Baby Got Back", which dropped in 1992.

We tended to lag a year or two behind most trends, though.
   943. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5536151)
Meh. Welcome to the Terrordome is a tremendous song. That's its legacy.
   944. PreservedFish Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5536153)
"Ice Ice Baby" had "Baby Got Back" beat by two years.

edit > and "Can't Touch This," which I think was the first big rap song I knew of. I was 8 years old or so. I might have already known about the Beastie Boys due to the influence of friends' older brothers.
   945. simon bedford Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5536154)
Rappers delight topped the charts up here sometime in late 79. not sure what caves you guys were in but by 1992 run dmc had been on the charts about ten times , the breaks sold a million copies by early 1980 , planet rock was a massive early 80s hit. honestly rap/hip hop had already crossed over by the time world famous were rapping on a malcolm mclaren lp and the rock steady crew were having a top 20 hit.
   946. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5536155)
Jason Sokol's There Goes My Everything: White Southerners in the Age of Civil Rights, 1945-1975 should be right up your alley. He might have even interviewed some people you know.

My best friend in college, Harry Boyte, whose father was the only white member of King's SCLC Executive Committee, actually befriended the (Catholic!) head of the St. Augustine (Fla.) KKK during the Atlantic Ocean "wade-ins" there in 1964 that were met with violence by the KKK and other whites. He was from the South himself, and although he was a dedicated civil rights worker, he had an uncanny way of relating to (at least some) counter-demonstrators who initially were threatening to kill him and worse. I've befriended many a racist, but never an actual Klansman.


I figured you might have a suggestion. Thanks

What I found both perplexing and fascinating at the time, when I was a child, then a teen and a young adult, was the way people could be viciously racist (in word more than deed—I don’t know of anyone who carried out any lynchings or even did any terrorizing)--and also be just regular people otherwise, petty and looking out for themselves and their own, yes, but kind, generous, and self-sacrificing, too.

To my mind, I had to figure out a way to incorporate that racism into the run of the mill normality that Life and Man. Many, of course, see racism as virulent pathology (but not racial pride, of some races and ethnic groups, anyway), or at least aberrantly inconsistent. Remember Jem in To Kill A Mockingbird? He was confused by a teacher’s outraged reaction to the trial of Tom Robinson and Negroes in general (they need to be kept in their place) while, he remembers, she was genuinely also outraged by the way Hitler was treating the Jews in Germany. Yes, if you like, what I doing can be seen as justifying racism in a sense. I’m not sure how to get around that except by lying to myself. Prominent in doing that would be white hatting/black hatting it, and that would not serve to ever get us out of merry-go-round of blame and guilt and resentment. Any suggestions how to resolve that dilemma?
   947. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5536158)
"Ice Ice Baby" had "Baby Got Back" beat by two years.


Wasn't all that big at my school, for whatever reason. I'd like to say that we had better taste than that, but to be honest... not really.

edit > and "Can't Touch This," which I think was the first big rap song I knew of. I was 8 years old or so.


OK, yeah, fair point. Though that was still in the '90s, albeit by only a couple of months.
   948. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5536159)
not sure what caves you guys were in but by 1992 run dmc had been on the charts about ten times , the breaks sold a million copies by early 1980 , planet rock was a massive early 80s hit.


Yep. I was familiar with all of those acts & quite a few more by the time 1984 rolled around. (Had to check on the release date for Run-DMC's "It's Like That;" Wikipedia says 11/1/83.) Then again, most of that exposure came courtesy of the urban AM station (our '73 Corolla didn't get FM) I chanced across in Phoenix after moving out there in 8/81. After moving back to smalltown Arkansas in 5/84 my awareness of what was going on with rap declined precipitously.
   949. Morty Causa Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5536160)
939

Words obviously spring from attitudes.

Your point is taken, but I not sure why you're so upset. I, too, believe that words spring from attitude and feeling. My point is that the real problem is the attitude and feelings, not the "mere" words. Perhaps you could expand on this attitude of some people, an attitude that is basically one of promoting and justifying censorship. It's not just rap. It's Mark Twain and Harper Lee. When you object to a word wholesale, you don't care how it's used. That's neither good nor smart.
   950. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5536161)
Public Enemy's first platinum-selling album came out in June 1988. You could even date the crossover back to Run-DMC in the mid-80s. I wouldn't, because I don't think there was the requisite critical mass -- but you could.

As to reclaiming, there's no inherent reason you have to be black to reclaim the word and no reason a white person couldn't side with the rappers against the racists. If a white person does, there's no reason whatsoever he can't morally "sing along." No one, black or white, has any kind of legitimate veto over that.
   951. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5536162)
"Ice Ice Baby" had "Baby Got Back" beat by two years.


And "Fight for Your Right (To Party)" by the Beastie Boys beat that by 3 years.
   952. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5536163)
Again - you don't get to decide what offends someone else.

I never said I did. I said that white girls singing along to a Kanye track *shouldn't* elicit outrage or offense. It's an antiquated argument.
So, you're not saying you get to decide what offends someone else; you're just saying others shouldn't be offended?
As TDF still refuses to address the two questions I raised:

Should they not listen to music from a black artist if it has the n-word in it?

Should they not sing music from a black artist if it has the n-word in it?


...I'm forced to guess at his position, from which I will conclude -- and I think it's a fair conclusion -- that he thinks it's ok for white people to listen to such music from a black artist but not to sing along with such music.
People like music with those lyrics; that's fine. But a group of whites shouldn't be surprised when they're called out for singing those lyrics.
And I think that's a massive step back for black people, actually. "White people shouldn't sing along to your music if you use the n-word." It segregates their music from that of white artists, and as a consequence stunts any financial or publicity success black artists might have.

It also presents a perception that white people are too good to sing along to certain music of black artists, and that black artists are doing something "wrong" by including the n-word or by marketing their music to white people.
And this is White Boy Ray deciding what should or shouldn't offend blacks. Again.
   953. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5536164)
by 1992 run dmc had been on the charts about ten times , the breaks sold a million copies by early 1980 , planet rock was a massive early 80s hit.


I'm not saying that Run-D.M.C. wasn't huge or that they didn't sell a ####-ton of albums... just that they didn't really break through in my little whitebread corner of the world. To the extent that anybody in my class was talking about them, they were the guys in that one Aerosmith video you saw once in a while on VH1. Rap didn't start getting big here until the early '90s, and by then, they were kind of an afterthought.
   954. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5536165)
No, what I'm saying is that it's hard to describe something as right-wing trolling when even people on the left disagree WITH EACH OTHER.
I never said it was right-wing trolling; you seem to just revel in general obtuseness.
   955. simon bedford Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5536166)
By 1992 Tribe called Quest were putting out their 3rd lp you really had to have your head buried in the sand NOT to know several huge rap acts by that point..biz markies "just a friend" came out in early 89 as did "me so horny"...1992 seems way way too late to have just heard of rap or it crossing over, it was everywhere by then.
   956. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5536167)
By 1992 Tribe called Quest were putting out their 3rd lp you really had to have your head buried in the sand NOT to know several huge rap acts by that point..biz markies "just a friend" came out in early 89 as did "me so horny"...1992 seems way way too late to have just heard of rap or it crossing over, it was everywhere by then.


I suspect you're failing to appreciate just how isolated & behind the times certain pockets of the U.S. can be, or at least could be back then. When various people say offhandedly that where they're from tends to lag 10 (or however many) years behind the past, they're likely not even half-joking.

EDIT: Hell, I still marvel over the fact that "My Generation" had been out nearly 2 decades before I first heard it, & then completely by chance when it happened to come over the PA (no doubt playing some local radio station) while I was lying on my back pumping out plasma at a center in Tempe during grad school. And it's not as if I'd actively avoided rock -- quite the opposite, in fact.
   957. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5536168)
I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of "nigger" in the lyrics of RUN DMC and Tribe.
   958. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5536169)
By 1992 Tribe called Quest were putting out their 3rd lp you really had to have your head buried in the sand NOT to know several huge rap acts by that point..biz markies "just a friend" came out in early 89 as did "me so horny"...1992 seems way way too late to have just heard of rap or it crossing over, it was everywhere by then.


The first time I ever even heard of A Tribe Called Quest was when one of the kids at my school got a shirt from Lollapalooza the year they played it, and it had their name listed on the roster on the back. So 1994, I guess?

It's not like we were an un-contacted Amazon people who weren't aware that rap was a thing that existed, but none of the radio stations here played it (except WAMO sometimes, I guess), and nobody in my classes were buying it or listening to it. There was just this general sense that it wasn't for us, y'know? Stupid, but that's the way it was.
   959. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5536170)
But a group of whites shouldn't be surprised when they're called out for singing those lyrics.


You don't get to decide what surprises people.
   960. Traderdave Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5536171)
Arguing about difference among rappers and rap styles is like arguing over the relative smells of horseshlt vs lizardshlt. They're both S-H-I-T

   961. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5536173)
Has anyone read Race and the Totalitarian Century by the delightfully named Vaughn Rasberry?


You should have included the subtitle: Geopolitics in the Black Literary Imagination, as Rasberry is an English professor at Stanford.
[url=https://www.bet.com/news/celebrities/2016/04/01/tatyana-ali-engaged.html]One married to Tatyana Ali
, which sparked some Twitter troll to refer to him as a "white guy".

Beyond the question of how a totalitarian society produces the life of a Vaughn Rasberry, Tatyana Ali, and BET, how did you get Black Literature before that, of a DuBois, Wright, Graham, etc?

I'll go back to Ta-nehisi Coates again -- the question is not whether the US was/is totalitarian, but the quixotic quest to convert the hard-won privileges of a few into universal equality.
   962. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:46 PM (#5536174)
So, you're not saying you get to decide what offends someone else; you're just saying others shouldn't be offended?


1. You still haven't pointed out who was offended other than an activist group.

2. If I say I'm offended by someone singing the lyrics to Taylor Swift's "Style" would you credit my "offense"? Or would you just tell me I'm being ridiculous.

This _can't_ just be subjective to the person, at least not the part where we credit it. There has to be some external check on whether we should credit someone's "offense" to something.
   963. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:47 PM (#5536175)
And this is White Boy Ray deciding what should or shouldn't offend blacks. Again.


Again, this discussion should START where you identify the black people who are offended by this. And then we can work from there.
   964. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5536177)
I suspect you're failing to appreciate just how isolated & behind the times certain pockets of the U.S. can be, or at least could be back then.


We totally missed pogs, too, for whatever that's worth.
   965. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5536178)
Well, here's one way to get to 50 votes for Repeal/Replace:


On Tuesday I wrote that the chances for Senate Republicans’ last stab at Obamacare repeal, Graham-Cassdidy, “may well hang on what offer Republican leaders are willing to make on Alaska’s behalf in the next week” in order to secure Sen. Lisa Murkowski’s pivotal vote. A couple of reports Thursday afternoon show us how that offer may be shaping up. To put it as generously as possible, it’s not subtle.

The first report, from Politico, says that Alaska, along with some other large, sparsely populated Western states, would be exempt from the per-capita caps that Graham-Cassidy would place on traditional Medicaid spending through 2026. In other words, Alaska—at least in the near term—would not be subject to the enormous entitlement reform that just about every Republican health care bill this year has tossed in its repeal-and-replace package. A good start. What else you got, Graham and Cassidy?

Independent Journal Review, citing a “Republican Senate aide,” reports what would be the most incredible package of carve-outs known to mankind. It would allow Alaska—and Hawaii, tossed in as a poor effort for political and legal cover—to keep Obamacare in the Obamacare repeal bill. And then some.

In addition to the per-capita cap exemption, Politico reports, a new draft would allow Alaska and Hawaii to “continue to receive Obamacare’s premium tax credits while they are repealed for all other states.” Not only would they get to keep the Obamacare tax credits flowing, but they would also, according to the aide, still be able to receive the block grant money that Graham-Cassidy replaces those subsidies with. The last provision would increase Alaska and Hawaii’s federal Medicaid match rate.


Link
   966. BDC Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5536179)
I suspect you're failing to appreciate just how isolated & behind the times certain pockets of the U.S. can be, or at least could be back then. When various people say offhandedly that where they're from tends to lag 10 (or however many) years behind the past, they're likely not even half-joking

And that's not just geographical, but extends to fragmentation within regions according to where various kinds of music get played in public. The decline of broadcast radio, its replacement by narrow satellite channels and/or (more importantly) individual private music on demand, via phones and other devices, means that everybody's got their head buried in some kind of sand these days, and has had for a while.

That I even know who Lady Gaga is comes thanks to her affinity with Tony Bennett. I spend most of my musical "life" (when I'm not at the opera) listening online to various old-movie takes on Gershwin, Arlen, and Jimmy Van Heusen.
   967. simon bedford Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5536180)
I refuse to accept any of this! You must have heard of the Rutles!!!
   968. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5536181)
That I even know who Lady Gaga is comes thanks to her affinity with Tony Bennett. I spend most of my musical "life" (when I'm not at the opera) listening online to various old-movie takes on Gershwin, Arlen, and Jimmy Van Heusen.


BDC........ these music choices........... I think they have 10-step programs for this.
   969. DCA Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5536183)
I suppose for most white people of late Gen-X / early millenials, when rap crossed over to the mainstream corresponds to when you were age 8-10.

For me the inflection point was Parents Just Don't Understand (1988).
   970. simon bedford Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5536184)
A pox on you DCA for putting " I think I can beat Mike Tyson" in my head followed closely by Girls aint nothing but trouble ( 1987??? I thought all 3 were on the same lp...).
   971. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5536185)
I was an early/mid-twentysomething and can attest that lots of similarly-situated white people signed on full bore to the "Elvis was a hero to most/But he never meant #### to me" philosophy.
   972. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:18 PM (#5536186)
Well, here's one way to get to 50 votes for Repeal/Replace:


At least the GOP will get to run on this nonsense in 2018, and seeing as how crazy unpopular all this stuff is it will be a bloodbath (with any luck at all).

As I have said if the GOP really wants to do something, well they have all the levers of power and can likely get it done. The only real question is do they really want to do it?
   973. cmd600 Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:24 PM (#5536188)
The only real question is do they really want to do it?


Depends. Is the congressperson more likely to lose in a primary or general election?

The brilliant strategy of replacing Obamacare is now to buy votes at the price of giving away ... Obamacare. This is some Trumpian 3D chess. So the question is, why does Murkowski think only her state deserves it?
   974. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5536190)
And this is White Boy Ray deciding what should or shouldn't offend blacks. Again.

Again, this discussion should START where you identify the black people who are offended by this. And then we can work from there.
In this particular instance (UNH), I have no idea, but I would hope it's blacks who are offended - just like I can't say "blacks shouldn't be offended by whites using that language", I also can't say "they should be offended".

But in general - the discussion always turns on "they shouldn't be offended because they use the word themselves" (as the discussion of rap lyrics here shows). It's not for us to decide.
If I say I'm offended by someone singing the lyrics to Taylor Swift's "Style" would you credit my "offense"? Or would you just tell me I'm being ridiculous.
I don't have your experiences, so I cannot know what should, or does, offend you.

I look strikingly like Rick Harrison - every week, at least one random stranger points it out. Am I offended by that? - there's no way for you to know. Do people buy me dinner because of it? Or am I a recovering gambler who sees him as someone who preys on people like me?
   975. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5536194)
But in general - the discussion always turns on "they shouldn't be offended because they use the word themselves" (as the discussion of rap lyrics here shows).


No one here has said anything close to that, and the discussion of rap lyrics here has "shown" no such thing.

What has been said is that a bunch of white people buy and like hip hop, have for decades, and typically when someone buys and owns and likes popular music, they sing along with it. No one sane has ever claimed some sort of white people/hip hop exception to that ironclad rule.
   976. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5536195)
Absent the Russian illegally donating money, there's nothing remotely untoward about this.
I am quite certain that there is a sum total of zero people who believe this.

(And yes, I am including you in that sum.)
   977. BrianBrianson Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5536196)
I suppose for most white people of late Gen-X / early millenials, when rap crossed over to the mainstream corresponds to when you were age 8-10.


Presumably. It would've been tough for me to get my grubby mitts on a Run DMC tape when I was two.
   978. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5536197)
“They all have one problem: No one from the health industry is backing them up. The health insurers are against Graham-Cassidy, with the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association saying that the legislation ‘contains provisions that would allow states to waive key consumer protections, as well as undermine safeguards for those with pre-existing medical condition.’ The American Medical Association is also against the bill. Ditto the American Hospital Association.”

“So if Graham/Cassidy/Trump claim that the legislation protects those with pre-existing conditions and expands coverage, the question follows: Which study or industry expert backs that up?”


Heck there is not even anyone here (that I can recall) who is willing to speak up for this bill. How incompetent at crafting a bill do you have to be to write one that seemingly no one supports? How morally and intellectually bankrupt does a political party have to be to be on the verge of passing such a bill into law?
I don't support Graham-Cassidy either, but I don't know why one thinks industry support should be a litmus test. Any market-based solution would be anathema to big business.
   979. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5536198)
It's not for us to decide.

No one gets to decide what others will be offended by, but that doesn't mean we can't make personal judgments on if any particular offense-taking is rational. And while I'm on board with the idea that people shouldn't go around needlessly offending each other, I'd prefer a world where people consider things like intent and context.

A lot of what you (and many others here) say irritates me in one way or another. Do I get to tell you that you can't say these things? Why are my sensibilities less valid than those of one who is offended by white people rapping?
   980. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:49 PM (#5536199)
Shit-talking George Gershwin and Harold Arlen fits right in with embracing the brilliance of Frasier and Hawaii 5-0.
   981. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:50 PM (#5536201)
Fraser


You mean Frasier?
   982. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5536202)
No one gets to decide what others will be offended by, but that doesn't mean we can't make personal judgments on if any particular offense-taking is rational.


Judges and juries routinely are called upon to decide in sexual harassment cases whether conduct would be offensive to a reasonable person.
   983. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5536204)
####-talking George Gershwin and Harold Arlen fits right in with embracing the brilliance of Fraser


Spelling.
   984. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:00 PM (#5536208)
And while I'm on board with the idea that people shouldn't go around needlessly offending each other, I'd prefer a world where people consider things like intent and context.
Ya know, that's kind of the point. The problem is that it's not just the context for the speaker but the listener also has a history - and by completely ignoring that context, that's makes you the bad guy (not the listener).
A lot of what you (and many others here) say irritates me in one way or another. Do I get to tell you that you can't say these things?
While "irritate" isn't the same as "offend", if someone says something that really offends you, you should speak up.
   985. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5536209)
--
   986. Lassus Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5536210)
You mean Frasier?

Yes, thank you.
   987. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:04 PM (#5536211)
So according to TDF's logic:

A white actor playing a racist in a movie can never use the n-word.

A white professor trying to educate about the subject can never use the n-word.

A white parent trying to teach his or her children about the subject can never use the n-word.

A...... etc etc etc.

I've never used the n-word, not in any context. But there are legitimate, non-racist contexts in which a white person can use the word, mainly for discussion and education purposes. Or acting in a movie. Or narrating a book. Etc.
   988. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:08 PM (#5536212)
So according to TDF's logic:

A white actor playing a racist in a movie can never use the n-word.

A white professor trying to educate about the subject can never use the n-word.

A white parent trying to teach his or her children about the subject can never use the n-word.

A...... etc etc etc.

I've never used the n-word, not in any context. But there are legitimate, non-racist contexts in which a white person can use the word, mainly for discussion and education purposes. Or acting in a movie. Or narrating a book. Etc.


I'll let TDF speak for himself, but I can't imagine ever disagreeing with that last sentiment.
   989. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:08 PM (#5536213)
1992 was the year of the wreckx-n-effect classic, "rumpshaker". Pretty sure the video of that was playing for all to see while I was waiting in line at an ivy league campus bookstore in 1992
   990. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:12 PM (#5536215)
In the sense in which it's used in hip-hop lyrics, it isn't even really "the n-word." The rise of hip hop has changed its meaning. Certainly some people still use it in its virulent old-school sense, but that's not particularly germane to the discussion.
   991. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5536216)
Arguing about difference among rappers and rap styles is like arguing over the relative smells of horseshlt vs lizardshlt. They're both S-H-I-T


Have I got the song for you!
   992. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:14 PM (#5536217)
I've never used the n-word, not in any context.


My lord, you are a Fauntleroy.
   993. cmd600 Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:16 PM (#5536218)
Y'all idiots arguing over rap lyrics while the Koch brothers destroy healthcare. If Ray ever wanted to argue for Trump's genius strategy, this is it.
   994. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:27 PM (#5536220)
This probably sums up 9 out of 10 Senate Republicans:


When Iowa reporters asked Sen. Chuck Grassley on Wednesday about the attempt to repeal and replace Obamacare, his answer was remarkable and revealing.

"You know, I could maybe give you 10 reasons why this bill shouldn't be considered," the Iowa Republican said. "But Republicans campaigned on this so often that you have a responsibility to carry out what you said in the campaign. That's pretty much as much of a reason as the substance of the bill."


CNN
   995. Omineca Greg Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:27 PM (#5536221)
####-talking George Gershwin and Harold Arlen fits right in with embracing the brilliance of Frasier and Hawaii 5-0.


Hey, hey, be fair. I was just looking at the Frasier Soundtrack...hmmm...

I see...

Isn't It Romantic (Hart/Rodgers)

I Don't Want to Walk Without You (Loesser/Styne)

The Nearness of You (Carmichael/Washington)

Moon River (Mancini/Mercer)

On the Street Where You Live (Lerner/Loewe)

I'm in the Mood for Love (Fields/McHugh)

So Dr. Crane has spoken! He has no love for Gershwin, Arlen, or Van Huesen. So...well...actually I don't know what that proves.

   996. Mike A Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:41 PM (#5536223)
A white actor playing a racist in a movie can never use the n-word.

Anyone who has seen Pulp Fiction would agree to this rule. *cringe*
   997. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 21, 2017 at 06:46 PM (#5536224)
And non-racist whites use the term in Pulp Fiction.

Yet another example that it's empirically false that white people can never use the term.
   998. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 21, 2017 at 07:06 PM (#5536227)
Again - you don't get to decide what offends someone else.

But just because somebody is offended, doesn't mean you have to bend over backwards to appease them. Or even stop doing what you are doing, as long as you have a valid reason for it, and aren't doing it solely to get a rise out of them. If you are using the n-word to be racist and offend people, that is one thing. If you are enjoying work by a black artist that is not in any way shape or form racist... then whatever.

Heck, I would argue if you are posting in OTP and are not offending someone, you are doing something wrong. Doesn't mean anybody should stop posting.

There are plenty of people who find Game of Thrones offensive. Not going to stop watching.

There are plenty of people who find porn offensive. But it is none of their business if I watch it.

There are plenty of people who find video games offensive. But after I finish writing this post, I am going to fire up The Witcher 3 and play the crap out of it.

The music in this case is not racist. If anybody enjoys that music, and wants to sing along with it, they should go for it. If somebody gets offended, tough titties. #dealwithit
And what especially gets me about this case, is that the song in question is actually really incredibly sexist. If anybody has a right to be offended by that song, it's women. Of any color. You know, the ones who were gleefully singing along to the song. But then we couldn't have any outrage.
   999. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 21, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5536229)
There are plenty of people who find Game of Thrones offensive.


If you aren't offended by the stupidity exhibited in season 7 you weren't paying attention. Or you're a degenerate wildling.


There are plenty of people who find video games offensive. But after I finish writing this post, I am going to fire up The Witcher 3 and play the crap out of it.


Yes but your mother sucks dwarf cocks.
   1000. Srul Itza Posted: September 21, 2017 at 07:19 PM (#5536230)
A white actor playing a racist in a movie can never use the n-word.


It certainly would have cut down the running time of Django Unchained.
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