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Monday, February 19, 2018

OTP 19 February 2018: Does Buster Posey Have a Post-playing Career in Politics?

Buster Posey is one of the most accomplished catchers in baseball history. At 30 years old, he already has a Hall of Fame resume.

In eight full seasons with the Giants, Posey has won National League Rookie of the Year, NL MVP, four Silver Slugger awards, a Gold Glove, and is a five-time All-Star. While he still has plenty of years left, Posey has naturally thought a bit about what he would like to do once his playing days are done.

But, politics? Well, kind of.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 19, 2018 at 08:04 AM | 2205 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: buster posey, giants, off-topic, politics

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   1301. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5629215)
You can certainly hold him accountable if he was trained to combat shooters and that was part of his duties. But even cops don't routinely leave positions of safety to single handedly take on a shooter.

Most people do in fact hunker down and seek shelter when encountering bullets whizzing around them. It's kind of why you train soldiers and cops to put a ton of bullets in the air.

So sure if these guy was hired and was told to single handedly take on active shooters and he said no problem let's hold him accountable otherwise let's maybe say the system is a bit flawed.
   1302. Count Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5629216)
No, the guilty pleas are certainly evidence of collusion: (1) lying about discussions you had with the Russian ambassador about sanctions during the transition is evidence of collusion, as it goes to at a minimum the quid pro quo for Russia helping Trump during the campaign, and (2) lying about your communications with a professor you understand to have connections to Russian officials who says he has "thousands of emails" is evidence of collusion, as it is evidence that the Trump campaign was receptive to getting dirt from Russia (it's not proof they coordinated the release of emails or promised policy changes in result, but it is evidence). (Note of course that everyone involved, not just Papodoupolos and Flynn, lied to the public until the evidence came out, and that nobody went to the FBI when they were told about Russian dirt via either Papodoupolos or the DJTJR meeting, and that everyone lied about the DJTJR meeting, and that everyone lied about other contacts with Russians, and that Trump denied Russia was behind the hacks even though his campaign was told months earlier that the Russians had thousands of emails).
   1303. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5629217)
Meanwhile, we *know* that 15-year olds ran into the shooter's line of fire to save the lives of their fellow students.

Unreal.
   1304. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5629218)
I can't recall exactly where I read it, but I have more than once seen 100,000 Wehrmacht KIA in Yugoslavia in the last year of the war. From mid-44 on it turned from an unconventional to a large conventional war. The 1MM troops also likely included Romanian, Italian and Hungarian allied forces.


It does - especially Croats, as Croatia was given nominal self-rule in the style of Slovakia. The Croatian Ustaše alone was 150K strong. The Germans had another 300K, the Italians a bit more than that, and other allies/satellites (mainly Bulgaria) supplied another 100 to 150K.

The 100K is for the duration of the occupation - official Nazi casualty counts were 24K killed and another 10k MIA. Official Italian count was about 10K. There are estimates, though that place the German casualties higher.

There were more than half a dozen actual Wehrmacht offensives during the occupation in the former Yugoslavia - and some relatively substantial battles. The 1943 winter offensive alone cost the axis 8K killed (roughly twice that for Yugoslav partisans) - including a major battle at Neretva.

Various partisan factions actually succeeded in holding territory - while they generally tried to avoid major engagements in favor of more of a Washingtonian "just don't get wiped out" - it was more than just sabotage and one-off actions like the Heydrich hit.

The axis occupation of Yugoslavia was easily its bloodiest occupation effort - moreso than even Russia - for the Germans (and especially) their allies.
   1305. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5629219)
How it even an argument which gun is more potent? It's not even close, right?
Non-responsive.
   1306. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5629220)
Now, we are told an armed sheriff's deputy stationed at a school shouldn't be blamed for refusing to engage this 140-pound student with an AR.


He's not really blameworthy, but even if he was, the question about how actual human beings and actual good guys with guns will actually act was pretty definitively answered.

They fetal.

None of us is really in a position to scream, "BE MORE BRAVE!!" to a guy facing down a maniac with a military rifle and a bunch of magazines, and screaming that as a matter of policy is obviously silly.
   1307. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5629221)
And some of them paid for it with their lives. Are you suggesting it is a security guards's job to die for his job? That's a helluva lot to ask for $15 an hour.
   1308. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5629222)
Meanwhile, we also *know* that at least unarmed teachers positioned themselves as human shields to save the lives of students.

Unreal.
   1309. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5629223)
And some of them paid for it with their lives. Are you suggesting it is a security guards's job to die for his job? That's a helluva lot to ask for $15 an hour.
He was a uniformed deputy sheriff.
   1310. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5629224)
Oh, and BTW, the murder rate in the United States has nearly been cut in half since 1980, even as gun ownership has jumped. How can that be?


I know! I know! Something to do lead in gasoline, right? Or maybe it was lead paint.
   1311. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5629225)
You know there's not even a vacancy? Gowdy didn't resign, he merely decided not to run for re-election - he will continue to serve as Committee Chairman for more than 10 months. Plenty of time for the contenders to seek the Steering Committee's nod, and possibly do so without a lot of public fanfare. Since the House GOP has term limits, they don't have the once-in-a-lifetime, do-or-die, pitched battles planned years ahead that House Dems are so fond of.


Yeesh, I can't even say anything nice without triggering you.

I told I thought that crazy liberal blog I linked to was off their rocker... Don't get mad at me - take it up with them. Here - I even found contact information so you can voice your complaint. It says editorial inquiries to posted articles should be sent here --> tips@hotair.com
   1312. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5629226)
The AR-15 was used by soldiers in Vietnam to fight the Vietnam War

No, it's a semi-automatic version of the M16 used in Vietnam.
   1313. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5629227)
He was a uniformed deputy sheriff.


So was Barney Fife.
   1314. Count Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5629228)
I don't know much about guns, so take this with a grain of salt, but there was an Atlantic article today about how much more fatal AR-15 shots are than regular handgun shots because of their velocity. You would also assume an AR-15 is easier to aim* and can fire many more rounds. (This is not a comment about what the officer should have done; we would need to know a lot more to be comfortable judging him).

*in my very limited experience I was really surprised by how hard it is to aim handguns. Looks much easier in the movies!
   1315. BDC Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5629229)
Are you more likely to survive a round from an AR-15 or a .45?

Well, sadly, a lot of people didn’t survive AR-15 fire that day.

The calculation of impact and survivability might be valid in terms of aggregate combat statistics, but says little about an individual confrontation. If you’re hit with the rifle bullet it can obviously kill you, or send you into shock, no matter what your gun is loaded with.

I’m making a very narrow point here, not speaking at all to how brave the guy should have been. And Clapper’s right that if they’re pretty close, the rifle is less of an advantage.
   1316. tshipman Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5629230)
A few hours ago, we were told that all NRA members and pretty much anyone opposed to banning AR-15s were accessories to the school murders.

Now, we are told an armed sheriff's deputy stationed at a school shouldn't be blamed for refusing to engage this 140-pound student with an AR.



I don't understand how these statements are supposed to be in tension. Sheriff's deputies have literally nothing to do with gun control.
   1317. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5629231)
So was Barney Fife.
Yet in the next breath you claim these are the folks we should trust to protect us once you've successfully ###### with the Second Amendment? Yeah, dream on.
   1318. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5629232)
No, it's a semi-automatic version of the M16 used in Vietnam.


In terms of everything but semi vs. automatic, it's the same gun. Still a complete mismatch versus a handgun.
   1319. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5629234)
In terms of everything but semi vs. automatic, it's the same gun. Still a complete mismatch versus a handgun.
At a distance. Not in a battle zone the size of a classroom.
   1320. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5629237)
At a distance.


The sheriff was at a distance. To get within shooting range, he would have had to go through a hail of bullets fired from a military-strength weapon by a loon with a duffel bag filled with magazines. It's absurd to expect him to do such a thing.
   1321. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5629238)
Still a complete mismatch versus a handgun.

Only if the conditions make the greater range of the AR-15 a factor. It appears that folks are reflexively assuming that was the case, when it hasn't been established. The Deputy resigned, and I didn't see his Chief defending him as being outgunned and unable to do anything. That claim seems to have originated here.
   1322. Traderdave Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5629239)
The AR obviously has a longer range and is more accurate. It has the potential of a much larger magazine (I haven't looked up if Cruz's did). Those are 3 big advantages.

But at close range in a tight environment of corners, halls etc, those advantages are significantly reduced and with the .45's much greater stopping power, things start to become more even.

All this depends on the range, the floorplan of the building, etc. I don't know those details but the point is that he wasn't necessarily outgunned depending on the circs.
   1323. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5629240)
A sheriff's deputy isn't an urban PD SWAT leader, I'll grant - but you can put me down on the side of the guy should have done more than hide.

Doesn't change my opinion about the NRA, repeal and replace the 2A, limit magazine size and other restrictions.... I also think it makes the idea that arming and training teachers sound even sillier...
   1324. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5629241)
A couple of questions that perhaps people can point me towards definitive answers:

What was this guy's actual position and training level? Everything I've seen has referred to him as a "Deputy".

Where is the information that he was armed with a .45 coming from?
   1325. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5629242)
Sheriff Scott Israel said he should've 'went in, addressed the killer, and killed'


"Went in."

He was never in range, and to get in range would have had to go through a hail of bullets.
   1326. -- Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5629243)
And now we know that the school was not, in fact, a "gun-free zone."
   1327. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5629244)
Are you saying it's the job of a police officer to die for $55,000 a year,?
   1328. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5629245)
What's the SRO's job, Ray?


Not to become the madman's next victim.


And yet you expect armed teachers to engage the shooter John McClane style? Pick a side dude.
   1329. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5629246)
He wasn't being paid for that, wasn't trained for it, and was ill equipped to handle it both physically and mentally. He was there to break up water balloon fights and assist teachers with unruly students.


He wasn't a mall cop. He was a duly sworn sheriff's deputy.
   1330. Traderdave Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5629247)

He was never in range, and to get in range would have had to go through a hail of bullets.


While that is a strong possibility, without seeing the floorplan you really can't say for sure.
   1331. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5629249)
Do cops even carry .45s?
   1332. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5629250)
Are you saying it's the job of a police officer to die for $55,000 a year,?
First, it was $15 per hour. Now it's $55,000 per year? G-d, your comments are pathetic.
   1333. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5629252)
What was this guy's actual position and training level? Everything I've seen has referred to him as a "Deputy".


He was a sheriff's department deputy... don't know the particulars of how Broward/this school district does it - but most county sheriff's departments have an entire unit of "resource officers" who are deployed to schools for various purposes (ranging from law enforcement work - i.e., drugs to manning the metal detectors to community relations type stuff).

   1334. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:16 PM (#5629254)
He was never in range, and to get in range would have had to go through a hail of bullets.

You're just assuming things. You don't know where the Deputy was, how far away he was, or whether he would have been seen if he moved in the direction of the shooting.
   1335. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5629255)
Are you saying it's the job of a police officer to die for $55,000 a year,?


I'm saying it's a risk that goes with the job.

   1336. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5629256)
I'm a bit confused on how Germany had 1 million troops in Yugoslavia and had 100,000 of them killed. If that was true there would be much much more about this campaign than Force 10 From Navarone. A million German troops? That's inconceivable. Now maybe you mean something like all of Germany and its allies' men that at one time or another fought in Yugoslavia during WWII adds up to 1 million men. Now that might get you to 1 million men.


I did say Germany and its allies. Roughly, 300 K Germans, 200k Italians, 150K Hungarians, 100k Bulgarians. The rest, Nazi sympathetic Croatians. Death totals roughly proportinate. Germany lost about 30K deaths during the occupation.
   1337. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5629257)
Re 1332 non responsive. Does it matter if it was shvitty or shvttier pay?
   1338. Jay Z Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5629259)
I know! I know! Something to do lead in gasoline, right? Or maybe it was lead paint.


The murderers are scared shitless of the illegal immigrants.

Getting back to the 2A for a moment, some people imply that the founders (no capitals for me any more, they were fallible men) intended for citizens to be armed so there could be a revolution against the government they themselves were forming. Hell, we can have an armed revolution every year. And call ourselves a banana republic. Any group can get a bunch of arms together. Here's hoping their ideas have something in common with yours.

So I guess DMN was for Hitler in the Beer Hall Putsch, but against him when he came to power? Even though he loosened gun restrictions for most of his citizens? Because DMN's for all revolutionaries regardless of cause, it seems. Because guns in the hands of not-the-government. Again, you can revolt for a million different reasons. Like the CSA, which basically wanted to duplicate the CSA but with less freedom. A cause worth celebrating. At least DMN got his 90 years of Jim Crow that he's been gloating over.

USA government has put down 100% of armed revolt attempts, whatever the cause. Including Native Americans, who had some of the better causes. Blacks never attempted armed revolt, although they certainly had cause. They were perfectly within rights to take over all of the American South and send the whites off on rafts to their fate. I don't think they could have pulled it off and it wouldn't have helped them in the long run, they were better off working things out politically. But they were the most justified of anyone in revolting. David Koresh, Posse Commitatus? Not so much.
   1339. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5629260)
Re 1332 non responsive. Does it matter if it was shvitty or shvttier pay?
Just curious: Were the cops, firefighters, and paramedics who rushed to the Twin Towers on 9/11 receiving shvitty or shvittier pay?
   1340. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5629261)
Re 1335. They aren't paid to take unnecessary risks. Hell, you had the cop who wouldn't wade into a pond to assist a driver stuck in a car and they watched the person drown. You have firefighters who will let you burn to death if they think it is too unsafe to attempt to rescue you. Real life ain't Hollywood.

Didn't some court rule out didn't some police force clarify that they aren't in fact obligated to protect you?
   1341. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5629262)

So even though the shooter knew there was a person with a gun on the premises (deputy/guard/whatever), he still went into the school and shot the place up.

That would seem to suggest the theory that an armed school would be a safe school because no one would dare attack is one with some, uh, holes in it.
   1342. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5629263)
I think that we should probably be very skeptical of reports that people are leaving until we see it happen.

Not a bad idea, but maybe you might want to ponder why some people jump the gun:

Thirty-seven administration officials who’ve resigned or been fired under Trump

Fired

Sally Yates. Deputy attorney general. Days with administration: 11. Refused to enforce Trump’s entry ban.
Preet Bharara. U.S. attorney. Days with administration: 51. Part of purge of U.S. attorneys.
James B. Comey. FBI director. Days with administration: 110. Allegedly pressured by Trump to scale down investigations.
Rich Higgins. Director, NSC. Days with administration: 176. Fired after writing a conspiracy-filled memo.
Derek Harvey. Senior director, NSC. Days with administration: 182. Fired following power shift under national security adviser H.R. McMaster.
Anthony Scaramucci. Communications director. Days with administration: 11. Fired by Kelly.

Resigned under pressure

Michael Flynn. National security adviser. Days with administration: 23. Ostensibly fired for having misled Vice President Pence about his conversations with the Russian ambassador.
Katie Walsh. Deputy chief of staff. Days with administration: 68. Moved out of administration to work for a pro-Trump PAC.
K.T. McFarland. Deputy national security adviser. Days with administration: 118. Pushed out following power shift under McMaster.
Tera Dahl. Deputy chief of staff, NSC. Days with administration: 166. Reassigned following power shift under McMaster.
Michael Short. Assistant press secretary. Days with administration: 185. Scaramucci told media that Short would be fired.
Reince Priebus. Chief of staff. Days with administration: 188. Resigned in favor of Kelly.
Ezra Cohen-Watnick. Senior director, NSC. Days with administration: 188. Resigned following power shift under McMaster.
Stephen K. Bannon. Chief strategist. Days with administration: 209. Bannon left after giving a negative interview to American Prospect.
Sebastian Gorka. Deputy assistant. Days with administration: 211. Butted heads with Kelly.
William Bradford. Director, Energy. Days with administration: About 120. Past racist comments were made public.
Tom Price. Director of Health and Human Services. Days with administration: 232. Under fire for taking expensive charter flights.
Jamie Johnson. Director, DHS. Days with administration: About 230. Past racist comments were made public.
Carl Higbie. Chief of external affairs, Corporation for National and Community Service. Days with administration: 153. Past racist comments were made public.
Omarosa Manigault. Director of communications, Office of Public Liaison. Days with administration: 364. Resigned to “pursue other opportunities.” Now stars on CBS’s “Big Brother.”
Taylor Weyeneth. Deputy chief of staff, Office of Drug Control Policy. Days with administration: About 340. Questions about experience and details on résumé.
Rob Porter. Staff secretary. Days with administration: 385. Allegations of spousal abuse became public.

Resigned

Michael Dubke. Communications director. Days with administration: 89. Personal reasons.
Walter Shaub. Director of Office of Government Ethics. Days with administration: 181. Concern over ethics rules.
Mark Corallo. Legal team spokesman. Days with administration: 59. Apparently concerned about handling of Trump Tower story.
Sean Spicer. Press secretary. Days with administration: 181. Uncomfortable with hiring of Scaramucci.
Elizabeth Southerland. Director, EPA. Days with administration: 193. Disagreement with direction of department.
Carl Icahn. Special adviser. Days with administration: 211. Resigned in advance of an article about conflicts of interest.
George Sifakis. Public liaison director. Days with administration: 204. Sifakis was an ally of Priebus.
Maliz Beams. Counselor, State. Days with administration: 97. Reported differences with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson.
Elizabeth Shackelford. Political officer, State. Days with administration: 323. Disagreement with direction of department.
Paul Winfree. Deputy director. Days with administration: 330. Returning to Heritage Foundation.
Dina Powell. Deputy national security adviser. Days with administration: 304. Personal reasons.
Jeremy Katz. Deputy director, NEC. Days with administration: About 340. Personal reasons.
Thomas Shannon. Under secretary of state for political affairs. Days with administration: 385 and counting. (Resignation announced but not yet in force.) Personal reasons.
John Feeley. Ambassador to Panama. Days with administration: 385 and counting. Disagreement with administration.
Rick Dearborn. Deputy chief of staff. Days with administration: 383 and counting. Joining private sector.

There hasn’t been a recent administration that’s seen so much turnover particularly among members of the senior White House staff. (Nor, it’s safe to say, have there been so many appointees who were fired after past racist comments were made public.)


But yeah, a few of the most masochistic sychophants like Sessions and Kelly are still hanging in there, so point conceded.

EDIT: The above article was from February 8th. Subject to updating as winning streak continues.
   1343. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5629264)
Probably shvtty pay. They also didn't think they were going to die when they made their choices that day.
   1344. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5629265)
How do we know the range was too great to engage the kid? And regardless, his job was to protect the students.


Spray and pray would have at least slowed down the shooter. Slowing him down is all important, as Ray told us earlier in his zeal to advocate for arming even lesser trained teachers.
   1345. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5629266)
Where is the information that he was armed with a .45 coming from?
We don't know that. I suspect a majority of police officers carry handguns with 9mm ammo but even those are larger than the rounds inside AR-15s.
   1346. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5629267)
I'll simply point out that if Jason or John Podhertz were to find themselves in a free fire scenario such as the deputy assigned to Parkland's high school, they'd both come to when other responders showed up, and beg them not to tell anyone that they were fetal in a corner with pants full to the brim of #### and piss.
This is an incredibly stupid argument. Most people, myself included, wouldn't charge into a burning building -- but that doesn't mean that we can't denounce a fireman who is too scared to do so. It's his ####### job.
   1347. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5629269)
We don't know that. I suspect a majority of police officers carry handguns with 9mm ammo but even those are larger than the rounds inside AR-15s.


I'm not sure why you keep harping on the size of the ammo.

If you fire 2 rounds of 9mm at me while I fire 15 rounds of AR-15s at you, who do you think is more likely to be hit/killed from the exchange?
   1348. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5629270)
If you fire 2 rounds of 9mm at me while I fire 15 rounds of AR-15s at you, who do you think is more likely to be hit/killed from the exchange?
Why would you be able to fire 15 rounds to my two? For example, a Glock 19 magazine holds 15 bullets.
   1349. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5629272)
We don't know that. I suspect a majority of police officers carry handguns with 9mm ammo but even those are larger than the rounds inside AR-15s.


With about 1/3 the muzzle velocity -- and I presume you know that velocity actually trumps mass in terms of what it means when the projectile hits the body?
   1350. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:34 PM (#5629273)
With about 1/3 the muzzle velocity -- and I presume you know that velocity actually trumps mass in terms of what it means when the projectile hits the body?


E = 1/2 MV^2, so yes
   1351. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5629274)
With about 1/3 the muzzle velocity -- and I presume you know that velocity actually trumps mass in terms of what it means when the projectile hits the body?
That's debatable. For example, I understand that hunters tend to favor mass and weight, as it's more likely to result in a clean kill.
   1352. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5629275)
That's debatable.


It's physics.
   1353. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5629277)
It's physics.
Is the 1/3 figure accurate?
   1354. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5629278)
It's a firefighter's job to as safely as possible enter into a burning when conditions make it highly likely they will be unharmed. It's not their job to charge into a building every single time no matter what.
   1355. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5629279)
Is the 1/3 figure accurate?


I have no idea. I'm not a gun guy. I'm just speaking to the math. A projectile 1/2 the mass of another, but twice the velocity, will have twice the energy.
   1356. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5629280)
With about 1/3 the muzzle velocity -- and I presume you know that velocity actually trumps mass in terms of what it means when the projectile hits the body?


That's debatable. For example, hunters tend to favor mass and weight, as it's more likely to result in a clean kill.


Ummm yeah... you know what a "clean kill" is, right? As in, most hunters prefer not to blow big holes in or otherwise pulverize the crap out of the thing they want to eat, mount, or both?

Maybe we should let one of the doctors treating the Parkland victims explain it to you --

As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out-of-the-ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low velocity handgun injuries as those I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.
   1357. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5629283)
I'd like to no more about this guard/SRO and whether he was a fully trained police officer or a glorified uniformed hall monitor.
   1358. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5629284)
I have no idea. I'm not a gun guy. I'm just speaking to the math. A projectile 1/2 the mass of another, but twice the velocity, will have twice the energy.
Yeah, I got my words crossed up.
   1359. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5629285)
What's the SRO's job, Ray?

Not to become the madman's next victim.

He wasn't being paid for that,
Yes, he was.
wasn't trained for it,
Yes, he was.
and was ill equipped to handle it both physically and mentally. He was there to break up water balloon fights and assist teachers with unruly students.
No. An SRO is a police officer. Regular police officer, like all the others. Same background, same training, same equipment. Nobody needs an armed cop to break up playground arguments. The vice principal or gym teacher can handle that.
   1360. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5629286)
SROs in Florida are fully trained sworn LEOs.
   1361. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5629287)
Ummm yeah... you know what a "clean kill" is, right? As in, most hunters prefer not to blow big holes in or otherwise pulverize the crap out of the thing they want to eat, mount, or both?
I'm no hunter but have been around enough of them to know that a clean kill first and foremost refers to not making the animal suffer. So... no.
   1362. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5629288)
   1363. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5629289)

I've made it pretty clear that I'm not terribly sympathetic to Manafort & Gate's legal plight. However, the rather desperate attempt to connect their private business dealings to Trump or his campaign seems to so far be based entirely on TDS.
So it's just an incredibly unlucky coincidence for Trump that of all the GOP's 70 bazillion whores political operatives, the two he picked to run his campaign just happened to be those in bed with Russia?
   1364. Jay Z Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5629290)
This is an incredibly stupid argument. Most people, myself included, wouldn't charge into a burning building -- but that doesn't mean that we can't denounce a fireman who is too scared to do so. It's his ####### job.


Good luck contracting for this in your libertarian paradise.
   1365. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5629293)
Re 1335. They aren't paid to take unnecessary risks. Hell, you had the cop who wouldn't wade into a pond to assist a driver stuck in a car and they watched the person drown. You have firefighters who will let you burn to death if they think it is too unsafe to attempt to rescue you. Real life ain't Hollywood.

Didn't some court rule out didn't some police force clarify that they aren't in fact obligated to protect you?


This is my understanding, yes. My understanding is that cops are no different from non-cops: No duty to protect or rescue, unless you were at least partially responsible for putting the person in harm's way to begin with.

Municipalities can be sued -- though it's difficult to succeed on a Section 1983 claim -- but not police officers who chicken out.

Scaredy cat cops -- which is most of them -- can be fired or disciplined but not imprisoned. At least not without some form of criminal negligence or malfeasance.

   1366. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: February 22, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5629294)
I'm no hunter but have been around enough of them

Who has been in the company of more gun hunks in their lives, Juan or Lyin’ Ray? Has Juan taken as many vacations to Arizona as Lyin’ Ray?
   1367. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5629295)
Has anyone unironically used the term ‘lockbox’ in public discourse since October 2000? lmao
   1368. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5629296)
This is an incredibly stupid argument. Most people, myself included, wouldn't charge into a burning building -- but that doesn't mean that we can't denounce a fireman who is too scared to do so. It's his ####### job.


This was beyond the scope of his job.
   1369. Lassus Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:05 PM (#5629297)
A few hours ago, we were told that all NRA members and pretty much anyone opposed to banning AR-15s were accessories to the school murders.

Sure you were.
   1370. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:12 PM (#5629298)
Military-style is to military what kosher-style is to kosher. That is, it may LOOK like the real thing but it's clearly NOT the real thing.

But like horseshoes and hand grenades when it comes to handguns vs rifles it's good enough. I don't know how good that guard was with a handgun but it would have to pass through a lot of area that was within the AR-15's effective killing range before he himself got within range to effectively fire on Cruz.
It's a school building, not an open battlefield. I mean, I haven't seen the floor plans, but how long do you think the hallways are? Range isn't really likely to be the main factor. Nor is this silliness about allegedly being outgunned. The most important relative factor in this context is accuracy. In theory, a cop should be more accurate than a deranged 19-year old. In theory.

EDIT: Coke to YC and others.
   1371. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5629299)
Sure you were.
Maybe you should have watched last night's townhall event. Maybe you should have read the message that I received earlier today asking if I was "anti-children."
   1372. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5629300)
Or perhaps better explained with it all tied together -

It’s possible to argue about everything when it comes to the politics of guns—including about the definition of “assault rifle” itself—but it’s harder to argue about physics. So let's consider the physics of an AR-15.

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is—as absurd as it may sound—slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.

These high-velocity bullets can damage flesh inches away from their path, either because they fragment or because they cause something called cavitation. When you trail your fingers through water, the water ripples and curls. When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissues ripples as well—but much more violently. The bullet from an AR-15 might miss the femoral artery in the leg, but cavitation may burst the artery anyway, causing death by blood loss. A swath of stretched and torn tissue around the wound may die. That’s why, says Rhee, a handgun wound might require only one surgery but an AR-15 bullet wound might require three to ten.


Are we agreed, or shall we provide some picture comparisons of handgun wounds versus wounds from AR-15s?
   1373. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5629302)
Has anyone unironically used the term ‘lockbox’ in public discourse since October 2000? lmao


true.

This was beyond the scope of his job.


yes, of course it was. it was probably beyond the scope of any single person, well trained or not. I'm not going to critique this guy too badly FFS he had know idea if it was one kid or a gang of 'em right?

These fantasies of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun are absurd. And why even let the system rely on that? We have better tools at our disposal. Sure, arm a teacher, barricade the doors, install a boston dynamics dog -- but start preventing these shootings long before that.

at the risk of tautological thinking -- is there a good reason other than "it's effective" the AR-15 class weapon seems so popular among these attacks?

god that link zonk is just sickening.
   1374. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5629303)
The AR-15 was used by soldiers in Vietnam to fight the Vietnam War.
No. The M-16, a military version of the AR-15, was. The M-16, like other military/assault rifles, is fully auto (/select fire); the AR-15 is semi-auto.

EDIT: Dammit, YC.
   1375. tshipman Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5629305)
the two he picked to run his campaign just happened to be those in bed with Russia?


and further, were known to everyone in Washington as being dirty and in bed with Russia?

And not even Washington, Manafort's own daughter infamously describing the family as having "blood money"?

Hell of a coincidence.
   1376. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5629306)

The sheriff was at a distance. To get within shooting range, he would have had to go through a hail of bullets fired from a military-strength weapon by a loon with a duffel bag filled with magazines. It's absurd to expect him to do such a thing.
You don't have to keep proving you know nothing about guns beyond what you see in Hollywood movies; that's already painfully obvious.
   1377. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5629307)
No. The M-16, a military version of the AR-15, was. The M-16, like other military/assault rifles, is fully auto (/select fire); the AR-15 is semi-auto.


With the exact same muzzle velocity and resulting damage... Because they actually use the same ammunition (well, can use - the link above is for 223 Remmingtons, military M-16s generally use 5.56×45mm - but the ballistic comparisons are the same).
   1378. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5629308)
Doesn't change my opinion about the NRA, repeal and replace the 2A, limit magazine size and other restrictions.... I also think it makes the idea that arming and training teachers sound even sillier...
Armed teachers, as I understand the idea, would not be expected to hunt down a shooter; they would be expected only to defend their own students. (And, again, school shootings are rare and this is about the best option, not a perfect one.)
   1379. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5629309)
No. The M-16, a military version of the AR-15, was. The M-16, like other military/assault rifles, is fully auto (/select fire); the AR-15 is semi-auto.


probably helps the amateur shooter's spray control right? ffs, what a banal technicality. oh he can't just go full auto actually has to repeatedly pull the trigger.
   1380. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5629310)
Armed teachers, as I understand the idea, would not be expected to hunt down a shooter; they would be expected only to defend their own students.


I guess that will all be made clear in the training they'll be getting... from sheriff departments perhaps?
   1381. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5629311)

Are you saying it's the job of a police officer to die for $55,000 a year,?
If necessary, yes. (Though I don't know where your figure comes from.) Protect and serve and all that.
   1382. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5629312)
If necessary, yes. (Though I don't know where your figure comes from.) Protect and serve and all that.


you put your life on the line for 55k ############.
   1383. BrianBrianson Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5629313)
So, I'm not an expert on shootings, but when it comes to asteroids impacting on planets and creating craters, or asteroids slamming into one another and breaking each other into pieces, both the energy (mv^2) and momentum (mv) of the impactor are important. Presumably the same principles apply to bullets.
   1384. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5629314)

You're just assuming things.
You mean making #### up. The "hail of bullets" cliché is the icing on the cake.
   1385. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5629315)
a society of 330 million people and roughly the same amount of guns talking about how we should best arm the measure of last resort. we've lost our damn minds.
   1386. zenbitz Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5629317)
Can someone remind me? Did Vietnam, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia or Chechnya have a Constitutional right to bear arms?

I mean I dig the feeling that you need a small arms cache in case civilization goes to ####, or the jack booted thugs come a knockin'...

But should a thing come to pass... The "legal right" to bear arms seems utterly irrelevant.
   1387. Stormy JE Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5629318)
Are we agreed, or shall we provide some picture comparisons of handgun wounds versus wounds from AR-15s?
I will review but you're wrong about hunting and clean kills.

EDIT: I will also try to watch this "Rifle vs 9mm vs .45 . Handgun and Rifle Caliber Comparison From a Medical Point Of View" video tomorrow. A few graphic photos, I hear.
   1388. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:36 PM (#5629319)
It's a firefighter's job to as safely as possible enter into a burning when conditions make it highly likely they will be unharmed. It's not their job to charge into a building every single time no matter what.
If it's literal suicide -- there's no hope of surviving -- then, no, they aren't expected to charge in. But it is their job to incur the risk of injury, not to go in only in conditions of perfect, guaranteed safety.
   1389. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5629322)
I will review but you're wrong about hunting and clean kills.


Which, I'm sure, is the germane point of the whole discussion....

   1390. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5629324)

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is—as absurd as it may sound—slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.
All of this is true, but note that it has little to do with the gun control debate. He's just describing the difference between handguns and rifles, not something special about AR-15s.
   1391. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5629325)

at the risk of tautological thinking -- is there a good reason other than "it's effective" the AR-15 class weapon seems so popular among these attacks?
Sure: the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the U.S.
   1392. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5629327)
All of this is true, but note that it has little to do with the gun control debate. He's just describing the difference between handguns and rifles, not something special about AR-15s.


It has plenty to do with the gun control debate.

How about something like only allowing bolt action only for anything with a muzzle velocity over say, 2000 fps? That would be safely above all handguns.

The two links above are from two different mass shootings - yes, more people are killed by handguns... but if you seriously don't think there's anything to be gleaned - and perhaps done - you're fooling yourself.

   1393. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5629328)
Sure: the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the U.S.


Because it blows the biggest holes in things... or people.
   1394. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5629329)
Because it blows the biggest holes in things... or people.
No.

(That is, no, it doesn't, and also no, that's not why it's the most popular.)
   1395. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5629330)
No.


Yes.
   1396. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:57 PM (#5629331)
That is, no, it doesn't,


Since most "elephant guns" are bolt action, then my firing mechanism restrictions paired with muzzle velocity would still allow people to spend 10X what most AR-15s for guns that actually do make bigger holes.
   1397. zenbitz Posted: February 22, 2018 at 11:59 PM (#5629332)
Ted Cruz says Democrats are "the Party of Lisa Simpson."


The Republicans fancy themselves the party of Bart Simpson, but they are really the party of Ralph Wiggum.
   1398. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:13 AM (#5629333)
Sure: the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the U.S.

Because it blows the biggest holes in things... or people.

Zonk is being silly. With any consumer purchase, there are a number of reasons why someone might prefer a particular product. In the case of the AR-15, it's probably the mulli-purpose performance at reasonable cost, combined with being so well known.
   1399. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:13 AM (#5629334)
I don't understand why this thing with the Russian mercenaries in Syria isn't a bigger deal:
In intercepted communications in late January, the oligarch, Yevgeniy Prigozhin, told a senior Syrian official that he had “secured permission” from an unspecified Russian minister to move forward with a “fast and strong” initiative that would take place in early February.

Asked Sunday as he returned from a trip to Europe whether the Russian government was responsible for its citizens fighting under contract in Syria, Mattis told reporters aboard his aircraft: “I’d prefer not to answer that right now. I need more information to understand and answer that authoritatively."
   1400. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:19 AM (#5629335)
Zonk is being silly. With any consumer purchase, there are a number of reasons why someone might prefer a particular product. In the case of the AR-15, it's probably the mulli-purpose performance at reasonable cost, combined with being so well known.


Yes.

And it seems pretty clear that if a consumer desires to produce the most carnage at a high school, an elementary school, a night club, movie theater or an outdoor concert -- it's probably because it causes the most carnage.

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