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Monday, February 19, 2018

OTP 19 February 2018: Does Buster Posey Have a Post-playing Career in Politics?

Buster Posey is one of the most accomplished catchers in baseball history. At 30 years old, he already has a Hall of Fame resume.

In eight full seasons with the Giants, Posey has won National League Rookie of the Year, NL MVP, four Silver Slugger awards, a Gold Glove, and is a five-time All-Star. While he still has plenty of years left, Posey has naturally thought a bit about what he would like to do once his playing days are done.

But, politics? Well, kind of.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 19, 2018 at 08:04 AM | 2205 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: buster posey, giants, off-topic, politics

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   1401. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:25 AM (#5629336)
is there a good reason other than "it's effective" the AR-15 class weapon seems so popular among these attacks?

Define "so popular." Like 75% percent of mass shooters use handguns.
   1402. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:30 AM (#5629337)
I don't understand why this thing with the Russian mercenaries in Syria isn't a bigger deal:


because the american public is stupid and the bandwidth via the legit media (not TPM or Fox or Infowars) is limited to, well, Trump scandals.

I think it's a big deal only in the sense that it further involves the US in a conflict it stands little to gain from. Russia is going to do what it does and that's fight the US mostly on its own terms. Plausible deniability and all that. I'm not even really sure what we are doing in Syria. I mean that on a purely cost benefit analysis for the US and not in any altruistic sense, which I guess I'm less sympathetic to.

Define "so popular." Like 75% percent of mass shooters use handguns.


like an uzi? you uh, got a source for that?
   1403. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:31 AM (#5629338)
I don't understand why this thing with the Russian mercenaries in Syria isn't a bigger deal:

Then you're being a bit naive. We clobbered a force of Russian mercenaries attacking a base in Syria where U.S. Special Forces were stationed. The Russian government can't really complain much publicly, since they claim nothing like that was authorized or done. What are they going to do, file a "collusion" grievance? Similarly, there's not much to be gained by the U.S. saying more. I don't think that means that the Administration has any doubt about the Russian actions or future intentions. It is a big deal, even if not much is being said by the governments involved.
   1404. zenbitz Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:31 AM (#5629339)
Pretty sure the deputy sheriff has the tactical advantage there, as long he isn't immediately targeted.

It's not like the kid was sniping from a clock tower.

And I am not going to hold cowardice under fire against him, but he better damn well resign.
   1405. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:36 AM (#5629341)
Speaking of Texas Democrats, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee unloaded some potent opposition research on . . . a Democratic Primary candidate perceived as too liberal:
The campaign arm of Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives set its sights on a surprising target Thursday: Democratic congressional hopeful Laura Moser. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee posted negative research on Moser, a Houston journalist vying among six other Democrats in the March 6 primary to unseat Republican U.S. Rep. John Culberson. Democrats locally and nationally have worried that Moser is too liberal to carry a race that has emerged in recent months as one of the most competitive races in the country.

The DCCC posting, which features the kind of research that is often reserved for Republicans, notes that Moser only recently moved back to her hometown of Houston and that much of her campaign fundraising money has gone to her husband's political consulting firm. It also calls her a "Washington insider."
. . .
Then, referring to a 2014 Washingtonian magazine piece in which Moser wrote that she would rather have a tooth pulled without anesthesia than move to Paris, Texas, Kelly added:"Unfortunately, Laura Moser’s outright disgust for life in Texas disqualifies her as a general election candidate, and would rob voters of their opportunity to flip Texas’ 7th in November.”

If the locals can't put up a decent candidate without the "help" of the DCCC, I wonder if they're really poised for victory. What does Nancy Pelosi have to say?
   1406. greenback slays lewks Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:51 AM (#5629342)
Similarly, there's not much to be gained by the U.S. saying more.

Gee, highlighting that the US and the Russians aren't colluding with one another wouldn't be politically useful to someone?

Putting that lens away, as #1402 notes, nobody seems to have articulated what we hope to accomplish in Syria. It seems like this might be a good time to start talking about that. Of course it might also be a good time to have an ambassador to Turkey. But apparently those kinds of concerns are naïve now.

I don't think that means that the Administration has any doubt about the Russian actions or future intentions.

The Russian intentions WRT the American presence in Syria are NOT at all clear. That's the point driven home by the Tillerson quote. The two forces are still cooperating aside from this strange attack. This just became an extremely bipolar arrangement, which is unlikely to remain stable.
   1407. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 12:51 AM (#5629344)
If the locals can't put up a decent candidate without the "help" of the DCCC, I wonder if they're really poised for victory.


The locals have two decent candidates.

The DCCC prefers the other one - mainly because the other one is also supported by a big Democratic donor in the area.

I know you're desperate for straws to grasp, but this is hardly much of a story -- even by your ever lowering standards.

Progressives are backing one candidate hard, "establishment" types - we have them, too - are backing a different one. This is hardly new - I still remember Rahm parachuting Tammy Duckworth into the old IL-6 to beat back Christine Cegelis, another progressive favorite back in the Bush days after Cegelis gave Henry Hyde a surprisingly tough race in 2004 (Duckworth ended up losing anyway).

Fortunately, our primary battles don't involve not-a-witches, forceable rapes, and little girl chasers. And at least thus far - this inevitable, pretty mundane clash between the progressives/grassroots and our "establishment" hasn't yet led to any Donald Trumps.
   1408. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 23, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5629345)
Clapper, #1293:
Since the House GOP has term limits, they don't have the once-in-a-lifetime, do-or-die, pitched battles [for committee chairs] planned years ahead that House Dems are so fond of.


Another thing that's helping the spirit of Republican comity and fellowship is that several GOP Representatives who either already held a chairmanship they still could have retained for years, or who were well along the track to get one, have instead decided to quit the House outright.

Really clears the decks for the up-and-comers. Kumbaya, baby.
   1409. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 23, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5629346)
Clapper, #1281:
In shady political mailings news - William Shatner Demands Texas Democrat Stop Using Photo:
The “Star Trek” legend ordered Brandy Chambers, candidate for the Texas House of Representatives, to “remove my photo and destroy all copies of whatever this is immediately” when she used the autographed picture in campaign literature... saying, “using a convention picture in a political ad is NOT ALLOWED!!


Texas Democrats must be a little desperate. How big is the Trekkie vote out there?

Besides, I always thought it was Republicans who believed in Tribble-down economics.
   1410. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 01:07 AM (#5629347)
Really clears the decks for the up-and-comers. Kumbaya, baby.


Arthur Jones can taste that plum committee seat now!

   1411. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 01:44 AM (#5629350)
Speaking of Illinois Republicans -

“[Minor] asked Ms. Harold personal questions about her marital status, and even her sexual orientation, going so far as to inquire whether she was a ‘lesbo,’” Breen wrote in a letter to other Republicans this morning. “The chairman also used the full ‘n-word’ repeatedly in front of Ms. Harold and her assistant, asking whether she found its usage offensive.”

Breen told POLITICO that in a meeting, Minor admitted to using the slur and had “tried to explain it away, saying that she wanted him to ask the question so she could get it on the record, which is obviously absurd.”

Illinois’ Republican House floor leader, Peter Breen (pictured), is calling for the candidate who said the offensive statements, Burt Minor, to drop out of a race for state representative. “He’s not fit to be a Republican nominee for office, especially not the General Assembly,” Breen told POLITICO. “His conduct was outrageous.” | Seth Perlman/AP Photo

The Harold campaign confirmed to POLITICO that the conversation did occur.

* * *
This isn’t the first time a GOP official has directed offensive comments toward Harold. In 2013, when Harold unsuccessfully challenged Republican U.S. Rep. Rodney Davis for Congress, a Republican county chairman called Harold a “street walker” who was a “little queen.” The official resigned over the remarks.


The state house seat in question is the one being vacated by the gay basher challenging Bruce "Yes, I manage to make even JB Pritzker seem appealing or at least, least-bad" Rauner.
   1412. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 23, 2018 at 02:54 AM (#5629352)
Quite a bit of disinformation was set forth on the previous page or two on the Douglas school shooting, but this article provides considerable detail about the armed Sheriffs Deputy stationed at the school, and the warnings authorities received about the shooter prior to his attack:
Eight days after mass shooter Nikolas Cruz murdered 17 people inside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Broward’s top cop on Thursday revealed a stunning series of failures by the sheriff’s department.

A school campus cop heard the gunfire, rushed to the building but never went inside — instead waiting outside for another four agonizing minutes as Cruz continued the slaughter. And long before Cruz embarked on the worst school shooting in Florida history, Broward Sheriff’s Office deputies had multiple warnings that the 19-year-old was a violent threat and a potential school shooter, according to records released Thursday.
. . .
The school’s resource officer, Scot Peterson, 54, was suspended without pay then immediately resigned and retired. Two other deputies have been placed on restricted duty while Internal Affairs investigates how they handled the two shooter warnings.

The admissions, made by Broward Sheriff Scott Israel at a press conference on Thursday evening, added to the growing list of missed signs in the years before Cruz went on a rampage that has horrified the nation and reignited the debate on gun control. The FBI, in an earlier and equally astonishing admission, said last week that the agency failed to act on a tip in January that Cruz was a possible violent threat.
. . .
Since the Columbine school shooting that left 12 dead in 1999, cops have been trained not to wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and kill the threat.

“When we train police, the first priority is to stop the killing,” said Pete Blair, the executive director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University. Said former Broward Sheriff Al Lamberti: “These events are over in three to five minutes. You don’t have the luxury to wait. You might not have the best equipment, you might have small numbers, but you’re armed. Those kids are not armed. You have to go in and engage the shooter. Our job is to protect and serve
.” [emphasis added]

Much more at the link.
   1413. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 05:13 AM (#5629355)
And I am not going to hold cowardice under fire against him, but he better damn well resign.
Not clear on how the two halves of that sentence fit together; "he had better resign" kind of sounds like holding it against him. Moreover, he was never under fire, so calling it 'cowardice under fire' is being too generous to him. He didn't confront a shooter and then freeze or flee; he hid instead of confronting the shooter in the first place.


(BTW, note that according to reports he didn't really 'resign'; he retired, which he was eligible to do under the absurdly generous cop retirement rules that are out there.)
   1414. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:21 AM (#5629358)
I have no problem agreeing the dude had a job he was hired to do and didn't do it. And?
   1415. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:27 AM (#5629359)
Gee, highlighting that the US and the Russians aren't colluding with one another wouldn't be politically useful to someone?
Sorry that you weren't paying attention until now.
   1416. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:29 AM (#5629360)
(BTW, note that according to reports he didn't really 'resign'; he retired, which he was eligible to do under the absurdly generous cop retirement rules that are out there.)
Meaning he'll be on the slopes with McCabe and Shredded in no time.
   1417. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:30 AM (#5629361)
I have no problem agreeing the dude had a job he was hired to do and didn't do it. And?
No "and?" necessary. Ray's still fast asleep.
   1418. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:35 AM (#5629363)
For some reason some people think a modern high school is a 1880's Victorian home. The idea that a rifle's advantages are negated because the shooter was inside a building is farcical. A rifle is more accurate and deadlier than a handgun at 25ft, at 50 ft, at 50m, at 100m. Schools are built so that a lot of people can move through the area quickly. That means large open corridors, large public spaces, and large classrooms.

The cop had the tactical advantage? He didn't hear the shots, didn't know where the shooter was, thought the shooter was in the parking lot, didn't know how many shooters there were, and didn't know what the shooter was using but, yeah, he had the tactical advantage. Despite what we see on TV the expectation is not that all cops are as good as John McClane.

We have no way of knowing if the cop was well trained on his gun and generally speaking cops don't get a ton of training of gun accuracy or shooting. We've had this argument before and many on the side of the cop should have gone in have argued that cops are poorly trained in regards to firing their weapon. Police are trained to basically spray and pray. Put as many bullets into the air as quickly as you can so that you either hit and neutralize your target quickly with numerous bullets and or to prevent your target from firing back at you. To make a blanket statement that the cop was better trained and more accurate with his handgun as compared to Cruz and his AR-15 is a huge assumption one that isn't likely true in a good deal of cases that the officer would find himself in inside that school.
   1419. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:39 AM (#5629364)
Does anyone have the over-under for Sheriff Fife 2.0's (D) resignation? Tuesday?
   1420. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:40 AM (#5629365)
If it's literal suicide -- there's no hope of surviving -- then, no, they aren't expected to charge in. But it is their job to incur the risk of injury, not to go in only in conditions of perfect, guaranteed safety.

So what level of probability? If they are 60% likely to lose a limb are they expected to go rushing into the building? At no time is a firefighter expected to go into a building when the result will be an injury to them. When they go into a building the expectation is not that they are going to die or that they will get hurt but that they can go in and deal with the situation and come out without getting hurt. Yes, things happen inside that can result in injury or death but they try to make the best judgement they can before entering the building and while inside of it.
   1421. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 06:45 AM (#5629366)
Does anyone have the over-under for Sheriff Fife 2.0's (D) resignation? Tuesday?

The (D) part is weird. His incompetence or competence has nothing to do with his political affiliation. That one of his men didn't go all John McClane has no connection to which party is next the sheriff's name on a ballot. Nor would it matter if one of his men did go all John McClane. He might resign, he might not, he might deserve to be fired, he might not but why does it matter to which local party he belongs to? Or is this just another whataboutism?
   1422. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:03 AM (#5629369)
The (D) part is weird. His incompetence or competence has nothing to do with his political affiliation.
As pointed out yesterday, Governor Greitens' mishigas had nothing to do with his political affiliation but C NN still rushed to let us know he's a Republican. How funny that they're so reluctant to do so here.
   1423. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:06 AM (#5629370)
That one of his men didn't go all John McClane has no connection to which party is next the sheriff's name on a ballot. Nor would it matter if one of his men did go all John McClane.
Sheriff Fife 2.0's (D) under fire (NPI) primarily for the incompetence of the office but also his lame-brain attempt at the townhall meeting and elsewhere to deflect blame toward the NRA.
   1424. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:12 AM (#5629371)
Sheriff Fife 2.0's (D)

And there's your answer.


As pointed out yesterday, Governor Greitens' mishigas had nothing to do with his political affiliation but CNN still rushed to let us know he's a Republican. How funny that they're so reluctant to do so here.

You really will never, ever, ever learn the lesson. (A Governor vs. a local sheriff, honestly Jason.)
   1425. Stormy JE Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:16 AM (#5629372)
And there's your answer.
Substance-Free Lassus is back and better than ever.

You really will never, ever, ever learn the lesson.
And yet Sansa manages to outthink him.

(A Governor vs. a local sheriff, honestly Jason.)
A sheriff who's up ####'s creek in part for attempting to play political games on national TV vs. a governor who's under fire for apolitical activities?
   1426. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:27 AM (#5629373)
No. The M-16, a military version of the AR-15, was. The M-16, like other military/assault rifles, is fully auto (/select fire); the AR-15 is semi-auto.


In other words, it's the same gun.
   1427. BDC Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:27 AM (#5629374)
In any case, basing general policy on what one cop did or didn’t do on one day is like deciding whether relief pitching is a good idea, based on one game blown or saved.
   1428. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:28 AM (#5629375)
Maybe if the armed guard at Canter Fitzgerald had used his handgun to shoot at the plane headed toward his office building, 9/11 could have been prevented!!!!
   1429. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:31 AM (#5629377)
Men armed even with powerful guns, and trained for battle, have been routinely fleeing and deserting free-fire zones since the gun was introduced to Western warfare. That's what they do.

Get your heads out of Fantasyland.
   1430. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:42 AM (#5629378)
The (D) part is weird. His incompetence or competence has nothing to do with his political affiliation.


As pointed out yesterday, Governor Greitens' mishigas had nothing to do with his political affiliation but C NN still rushed to let us know he's a Republican. How funny that they're so reluctant to do so here.

This is almost as funny as your reluctance to admit that your Donald Trump is the sole and undisputed leader of your Republican Party, and that you "#NeverTrumps" have now been reduced to this.
   1431. BrianBrianson Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:43 AM (#5629379)
Indeed - even video games incorporate the fog of war. Why people can't see it applies to both a school shooting and possibly Syria, I don't know.

The school cop wouldn't have known who the shooter was (or shooters were) and wouldn't have been able to identify them until they were shooting at them. They guy isn't wearing a sandwich board and ringing a bell. And, as noted, cops are pretty much trained to spray and pray - in a crowded environment like a school, a cop is liable to come out with a dozen bodies on his conscience.

Why would the Russians organise an attack on a US base - like, what could they possibly hope to gain? Hanlon's Razor is liable to apply.
   1432. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 07:57 AM (#5629380)
A sheriff who's up ####'s creek in part for attempting to play political games on national TV

It would make a mote of a difference, I suppose; seeing as how you speak so frequently in Twitter code, I may have misunderstood WTF sheriff you were referring to.


Substance-Free Lassus is back and better than ever.

I must have missed your response to the gas tax and EPA bee-killing posts I put in in the last 24 hours.


   1433. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 08:09 AM (#5629381)
The (D) part is weird. His incompetence or competence has nothing to do with his political affiliation. That one of his men didn't go all John McClane has no connection to which party is next the sheriff's name on a ballot. Nor would it matter if one of his men did go all John McClane. He might resign, he might not, he might deserve to be fired, he might not but why does it matter to which local party he belongs to? Or is this just another whataboutism?


Nah -

You gotta understand, all the winning has turned certain Trumpublicans into whiny little.... people who bleed out their whatevers.

This sheriff's primary offense - in the minds of some people - is that he's said the same things about gun control measures that I'd wager the majority of sheriffs would say.

Sad.

And after we just had such a thorough lecture on the the important anglo-american heritage -- sorry, common law -- role they play.
   1434. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 08:26 AM (#5629384)
In any case, basing general policy on what one cop did or didn’t do on one day is like deciding whether relief pitching is a good idea, based on one game blown or saved.


The me that "enjoyed" Latroy Hawkins stint with the Cubs would say that you're painting with far too broad a brush.
   1435. BDC Posted: February 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM (#5629387)
Governor Greitens' mishigas had nothing to do with his political affiliation

But didn't he run as a "family values" guy? I realize that the Republican Party has become to family values what the medieval Catholic Church was to clerical celibacy, but if Greitens ever even implied that the GOP was the party of not blackmailing your extramarital girlfriend, then the scandal arguably has something to do with his affiliation.
   1436. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 23, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5629390)
Anyone who thinks that Donald Trump can win any kind of a faceoff with Robert Mueller might want to read this joint biographical sketch of the two adversaries. It's a long article, but here are two telling parts about Mueller:

Mueller and Trump: Born to wealth, raised to lead. Then, sharply different choices.

Mueller spent the first two decades of his legal career putting bad guys behind bars. He worked as a prosecutor in San Francisco and Boston. And in Washington, he headed the Justice Department’s criminal division as an assistant attorney general under President George H.W. Bush, supervising high-profile cases such as the prosecution of Panamanian dictator Manuel Antonio Noriega and the terrorist bombing of Pan Am Flight 103.

But by 1995, he was ensconced in the $400,000-a-year luxury of a white-collar litigation job in the Washington office of a Boston law firm, Hale and Dorr. It was not a happy time.

“He hated it,” said Wilner, his longtime friend. “He couldn’t stand selling his services to defend people he thought might be guilty. . . . There was no hesitation for Bob in leaving a lucrative job to . . . do what he thought was helping make the world a better place.”

So one day, Mueller called the District’s local prosecutor, U.S. Attorney Eric H. Holder Jr., and asked for a job, not handling the office’s big national cases, but working the line, prosecuting homicides on the streets of D.C. He wanted no title, no supervisory position. He told Holder that he was shaken by all the killings in Washington, then the nation’s murder capital, and that he just wanted to try homicide cases.

“I was taken aback,” Holder recalled. He reminded Mueller that coming to work at the “Triple Nickel” — as the prosecutors’ office at 555 Fourth Street NW was called — would mean a pay cut of more than 75 percent, a big step down in stature and a daunting job. The District, plagued with a crack cocaine epidemic and about 400 homicides a year, was a nightmare for prosecutors, who faced huge caseloads and witnesses who were too scared to talk.

Mueller said he knew what he was getting into. Holder hired him, but insisted on giving him a title — senior litigation counsel — and eventually made him head of the homicide section. Day to day, though, Mueller was “just a line guy,” Holder said. “He would be in those parts of Washington that were most affected by the violence. . . . He would be interviewing people at crime scenes, going to people’s homes to build cases, working with street cops.”

He got a kick out of answering his phone, “Mueller, Homicide.”

“I love everything about investigations,” Mueller said years later in an interview with UVA Lawyer, the magazine of the University of Virginia School of Law, where he earned his law degree. “I love the forensics. I love the fingerprints and the bullet casings and all the rest.”

He led the prosecution of high-profile cases including the grisly murders in 1997 of three workers in a Starbucks coffee shop in Georgetown. D.C. police were not thrilled about the idea, but Mueller brought in a star FBI agent to work on the investigation. Three years after the killings, a D.C. man was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

“If it wasn’t for [Mueller], that case would never have been solved,” said former longtime homicide detective James Trainum, who worked with Mueller on the case. “With his quiet demeanor, he just kind of waded in and diplomatically parted the waters.”....

After Mueller did a stint as U.S. attorney in San Francisco, President George W. Bush nominated him to direct the FBI. He was sworn in on Sept. 4, 2001, one week before the planes hit the twin towers.

For the next 12 years, in both Republican and Democratic administrations, Mueller led the FBI through one of the most difficult periods in its history. The bureau shifted from a domestic law enforcement agency largely focused on criminal threats to a global intelligence organization reoriented to fight terrorism.

Although more terrorist attacks were feared, Mueller was intent on protecting civil liberties, according to those who worked with him. “He didn’t allow FBI agents in the post 9/11 era to engage in interrogation techniques that he thought were inconsistent with American law and tradition,” said Holder, who, as President Barack Obama’s attorney general, was his boss once again.

Mueller worked around the clock, traveling from his Georgetown home to FBI headquarters in a black SUV that arrived shortly after 6 a.m. for morning security briefings, heading back late at night. He wore a traditional J. Edgar Hoover-era G-Man uniform: dark suit, red or blue tie and white shirt — always white.

“He won’t wear a blue shirt,” Wilner said. “He is so straight, he always wears a white shirt. He’s a pain in the ass in many ways because he is so straight. . . . He’s conscious that he’s a public figure and he doesn’t want anything to compromise his integrity. Even a blue shirt.”

Around the building, some privately dubbed him “Bobby Three Sticks,” a reference to both the Roman numeral at the end of his name and the three-finger Boy Scout salute. No one dared use the nickname in his presence, former Justice Department officials said.

Mueller usually avoided the limelight. He frustrated his speechwriters by crossing out every “I” in speeches they wrote for him. It wasn’t about him, he told them: “It’s about the organization.”....


   1437. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:04 AM (#5629392)
   1438. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:19 AM (#5629398)

Greitens ran as larger than life...

Well, that's one National Review article that JE won't be likely to post.

But give it a day or two, and I'm sure this'll be the new GOP party line:

Indicted Missouri governor blasts 'reckless liberal' prosecutor
Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens lashed out against a St. Louis prosecutor Thursday, hours after a grand jury indicted him on a felony invasion-of-privacy charge related to an extramarital affair.

"I know this will be righted soon," Greitens wrote in a Facebook post. "The people of Missouri deserve better than a reckless liberal prosecutor who uses her office to score political points."
   1439. BDC Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:19 AM (#5629399)
The 43-year-old Greitens (rhymes with “tightens”)


As in "tightens the handcuffs," evidently …
   1440. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:25 AM (#5629400)
I realize that the Republican Party has become to family values what the medieval Catholic Church was to clerical celibacy


SHAMEFUL ANTI-FAITH BIGOTRY! This is why you hippies lose elections to Donald Trump!
   1441. BDC Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5629401)
Speaking of Catholics, here's a discrimination case somewhat more complex than the ol' cake-baking example:

A lesbian married couple from Texas is suing the federal government after they say that a Catholic nonprofit that receives taxpayer funding denied them the opportunity to serve as foster parents for refugee children because of their sexual orientation.

Fatma Marouf, 41, and Bryn Esplin, 33, both professors at Texas A&M University in Fort Worth, said they were beginning the process to become refugee foster parents last year when they were told by a local charity, Catholic Charities of Fort Worth, that they did not qualify after it became clear that they were a same-sex couple, according to a complaint filed Tuesday in district court in Washington.

The Catholic Charities of Fort Worth receives taxpayer funding to help find foster parents for refugee children, in the form of sub-grants from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, which receives grants from the Department of Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement.


There could be all kinds of valid legal reasons why this case can't succeed (for instance, what if the Ft. Worth organization keeps private funding strictly separate from federal funding – I dunno, our lawyers can surely think of lots more).

But the issue as framed is difficult. Suppose there's no federal law or rule prohibiting discrimination against gay couples in foster-care cases. (Though for all I know, there is.) Would the couple still have a case on the basis of religious discrimination? Presumably Catholic Charities can't give federal grant money only to Catholics. But at the same time, they do have a duty to select good foster parents. They can't just approve anybody.

In the judgment of Catholic Charities, gay couples are never good foster parents. Is that a religious judgment or a secular judgment?

I would assume that a (hypothetical) federally-funded Muslim Charities would be able to turn down applicants because their home was dangerously filthy, but not because the home was haram. Can Catholic Charities decide that a gay couple is actually bad for kids, or are they really deciding that they're ritually and sacramentally bad?
   1442. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5629403)

In other words, it's the same gun.
Those are indeed other words. Not accurate ones, but other ones. In the same words, it's a different gun that looks the same, but operates differently.
   1443. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5629404)
Greitens was larger than life - and any party would be a fool not to fall in love with a telegenic Navy Seal who can even sound compassionate and technocratic.

That's the problem, though - if you increasingly tout him as the party's next big thing, then yeah - I think the (R) (or the (D)) is going to be prominently displayed if bad things come to light. One cannot have it both ways.
   1444. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5629410)
Those are indeed other words. Not accurate ones, but other ones. In the same words, it's a different gun that looks the same, but operates differently.


Solely in its firing mechanism.

Reiterating again from last night - that's the only difference. The muzzle velocities and resulting kinetic energy of the rounds are the same.

No clips, or, your ammo makers have to produce such clips so that muzzle velocity is less than 2000 fps.

I don't see why a measure like this would be unreasonable - and there's a good chance at least some of these shooting if cut the carnage power of the bullets by more than half.
   1445. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5629414)
Reading about the Greitens case, I'm very curious what the proof will be. Prosecutorial overreach certainly exists, and the extent and depth of this charge certainly should be pretty rock-solid if they want to avoid real problems.
   1446. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5629415)
That's the problem, though - if you increasingly tout him as the party's next big thing, then yeah - I think the (R) (or the (D)) is going to be prominently displayed if bad things come to light. One cannot have it both ways.


Oh no?
   1447. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5629423)
1200

Ha! And Trump opposes schools having "active shooter drills" because it will make students think negative things.


He's right, of course -- rendering it unclear why you would ridicule him on the point.


And while we're at it, let's do away with fire drills, too, for the same reason.
   1448. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5629428)
1212

Well, the single charge relates to Invasion of Privacy, rather than Blackmail, but not a good look. Of course, he's not the only politician in legal difficulties that include allegations involving nude photos


God forbid a chance whatabout is ever passed up...
   1449. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5629429)
Sounds like the Gates plea deal is back on -

NYT says a Rick Gates plea deal is expected today... Looks like Clapper's hopes for Manafort may take a hit.
   1450. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5629430)
Speaking of Catholics, here's a discrimination case somewhat more complex than the ol' cake-baking example:
1. This is why using religious organizations for work the government should do is a bad idea.
2. This is why relying on religious organizations, instead of the government, for social services is a bad idea.
3. This is why a wall of separation between church and state is a good idea.

Catholics have beliefs. By routing adoption services through them, the government is tying those beliefs to anyone who wants to use the adoption services - which isn't fair to the adoptors, the adoptees, or the adoption agency.
   1451. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5629431)
1243

If Mueller can prove everything he claims, he's got them for making a great deal of money overseas, attempting to hide it, not paying taxes, money laundering, and bank fraud, all related to their own business dealings.


Which of course, makes them perfectly qualified to run the Trump campaign.
   1452. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5629432)
1244

Yeah, why ISN'T Mueller also investigating Clinton? He's a Republican, and they've investigated her until our ears have bled for 20+ years. May as well include her in the investigation. Who cares? What will they do to her? Impeach her? Electrocute her? Deport her?


LOCK! HER! UP!
   1453. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5629438)
While some here are desperate to link the "good" Gov to a random Sheriff, there are those better linked to him ... Republicans Have a Big Problem In Missouri

“For one thing, Missouri is holding one of the most competitive Senate races in the country between incumbent Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) and likely GOP opponent Josh Hawley, who just happens to be the state’s top law-enforcement official as state attorney general. Additionally, the Greitens matter isn’t going away anytime soon, because Greitens is fighting the charge, and because the state House is investigating it.”

“The McCaskill-Hawley race, right now, is viewed as a 50-50 contest, with control of the U.S. Senate possibly on the line for whichever party wins it. And this felony indictment will be in the background. Possibly for months.”
   1454. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:18 AM (#5629440)
1264

The fact that a trained, armed police officer on the scene froze (or rationally chose to wait for back up rather than rushing into a fire fight with a guy carrying a military arsenal, armed with nothing but a standard issue 9mm) is precisely why "arm the teachers" is such an utterly idiotic idea.


BINGO!
   1455. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5629444)

At no time is a firefighter expected to go into a building when the result will be an injury to them.
This is insane. By the standard you are describing, police would never arrest anyone and firefighters would never go inside buildings ever. There are always risks of injury. That's what they're trained for, and what they're paid for: to take those risks. Not to be suicidal, but to take major risks.

(To be sure, so many unjustified shootings by cops are because of the mindset you describe: that a cop should face virtually no risk, so he should shoot first and ask questions later. Is he confronting someone with a knife who is 20 feet away? Kill the guy so that he doesn't risk injury to himself. Is he facing an elderly woman with a stick? Kill her so that she can't bruise him. A completely unarmed person in a hotel hallway? Kill the guy just to be safe. But people with that mindset are people who shouldn't be cops at all.)
   1456. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5629445)
If this deputy was a real cop rather than a glorified mall cop I'll re-evaluate.
   1457. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5629446)
--
   1458. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5629447)
Seeing as how Clapper breathlessly reports any and all news about Democratic candidates for 2020, can we have some news on the GOP front? Sure you would think with a Republican in office in his first term and already showing eagerness to run for a second term there wouldn't be much to see. Why would anyone credible in the GOP challenge a sitting President?

Kasich's team gears up for possible 2020 bid

John Kasich’s inner circle is gearing up for a possible presidential run in 2020 — actively weighing the prospect of a Republican primary challenge to President Donald Trump against the feasibility of a long-shot general election campaign as an independent.

And there’s one consideration driving their thinking perhaps more than any other: what some of his advisers consider the very real, maybe even likely, possibility that Trump doesn’t run again — by choice or not — or that the president becomes so politically hobbled by late next year that the political landscape fundamentally shifts in Kasich’s favor. That’s one reason Kasich has yet to decide whether to pursue an independent bid or a primary challenge.

Nine Republicans in or close with Kasich’s political operation told POLITICO that the departing Ohio governor has been working with a tight clutch of advisers and informally surveying donors and fellow pols about the shape of his next steps. So far, he has solidified his role as a go-to commentator for national news shows while stacking his schedule with trips including an April return to New Hampshire.


More likely to run that Hillary? Absolutely. More likely than Biden? Hmmm that is a tough one. Anyway, did I miss when former Democratic Gov's were lining up to run against Obama because they thought it likely he would be "so politically hobbled" that it made sense to run against him in a Primary?
   1459. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5629448)
wasn't trained for it,

Yes, he was.


Citation needed.
   1460. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5629450)
Sounds like the Gates plea deal is back on -

NYT says a Rick Gates plea deal is expected today... Looks like Clapper's hopes for Manafort may take a hit.


Clapper has never expressed the slightest hope or concern for Manafort.
   1461. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5629451)
You don't have to keep proving you know nothing about guns beyond what you see in Hollywood movies; that's already painfully obvious.


I know you're a chickenhawk, shrilly demanding that people other than yourself brave a barrage of military-power fire armed with only a handgun.
   1462. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:27 AM (#5629452)
In the case of the AR-15, it's probably the mulli-purpose performance at reasonable cost, combined with being so well known. fact that they're losers with penis insecurities.


   1463. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5629454)
This is insane. By the standard you are describing, police would never arrest anyone and firefighters would never go inside buildings ever. There are always risks of injury. That's what they're trained for, and what they're paid for: to take those risks. Not to be suicidal, but to take major risks.

So you honestly believe that a firefighter is supposed to lose a limb as part of their duty and if they size up a situation and so no thanks they should be fired because they opted not lose a limb?
   1464. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5629455)

And while we're at it, let's do away with fire drills, too, for the same reason.


And seat belts. Let's not actually do safety research on products lest they get out into the public domain and we unnecessarily worry the public. The automotive industry did this for years. They were worried that if they put seat belts in cars that people would think they were unsafe and not buy them.
   1465. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5629457)
Clapper has never expressed the slightest hope or concern for Manafort.


Sure - he's quite adept at the old Hillary "So far as I know" phrasing of plausible deniability.
   1466. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5629459)
If this deputy was a real cop rather than a glorified mall cop I'll re-evaluate.


He was. Jeeze, how many times do you have to be told.



Link

The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people..
.
.
Peterson’s resignation ends a more than three-decade career with the agency, where he was often regarded by peers as a dependable employee who could communicate well with both staff and students.

The 6-foot-5-inch native of Illinois started with the agency in July 1985, after studying at Miami-Dade Community College and Florida International University, according to records released Thursday by the sheriff’s office.

Peterson had been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He was considered a trusted officer who “values his position and takes pride in protecting the students, faculty and staff at his school,” a 2017 performance review said.



The guy had been a cop since 1985.
   1467. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5629461)
1297

Are you more likely to survive a round from an AR-15 or a .45?


In the time it takes to shoot a .45 round, you'll be hit by 30 AR-15 rounds.
   1468. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5629462)
1299

The Deputy was also trained, at least somewhat, for the task, while the student was not.


The training he got in that white separatist camp doesn't count?
   1469. The Good Face Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5629463)
Good lord, you people are immensely ignorant about firearms and basic ballistics.

The .45 ACP cartridge is commonly used in semiautomatic handguns, and yes, some cops do carry guns chambered in .45 ACP. And that cartridge is FAR weaker than the .223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO which is typically the cartridge most AR-15 variants are chambered in.

Here's the Wikipedia page for the .45 ACP (yet another invention of John Browning, back in 1905). The most common .45 cartridge is the 230g FMJ (full metal jacket) which delivers ~356 ft-lbs of energy. The 185g hollow point is often used by LEOs, and that puts out ~497 ft-lbs. Those are respectable numbers for a common, semiautomatic pistol, which is why the cartridge has had such a long life and is so popular.

Here's the page for the .223 Remington. The weakest load listed puts out ~1,124 ft-lbs of energy. More than twice as much power as a relatively powerful .45 cartridge. The 5.56 NATO round packs significantly more punch than that. Smaller bullets moving really, really fast are more dangerous than larger bullets poking along at relatively low velocity. Size isn't everything kids.

Aside from the fact the AR-15 packs a much bigger punch per cartridge, it's more accurate than any handgun and has a larger magazine capacity.

To sum up? Yeah, Barney Fife was outgunned as fuck if all he had was a .45 pistol.
   1470. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5629465)
So you honestly believe that a firefighter is supposed to lose a limb as part of their duty and if they size up a situation and so no thanks they should be fired because they opted not lose a limb?


I think firefighters (and cops) are supposed to take reasonable risks for commensurate and rational goals. Risking a limb to save a child, yes. Risking a limb -- or the nail on a pinky finger -- to save a dog, no.

They did willingly sign up for these jobs.


   1471. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5629466)
Are you more likely to survive a round from an AR-15 or a .45?

In the time it takes to shoot a .45 round, you'll be hit by 30 AR-15 rounds.


I know you're catching up :-) - and Jason is still "looking into it" - but you don't even get into number of rounds.

As you'll see in the 1300s -- it's not a matter of size/weight of the round, it's the kinetic energy... and the immutable laws of physics say that velocity is the key factor.

Here are the stats on a .45 -- it's closer than a 9mm -- but the AR-15 round is still easily more powerful.

Single round vs single round - being shot by an AR-15 is going to do more damage than a 45 round.

EDIT: I'd give TGF a coke, but he's basically reiterating - with more specific terminology and history - what was said last page :-)
   1472. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5629467)
Rushing into the towers on 9/11, no.
   1473. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5629468)
No "and?" necessary. Ray's still fast asleep.


The "and" is that your policy prescription of fighting off bad guys with AR-15's with good guys with guns failed, and is doomed to failure.
   1474. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5629469)
The guy had been a cop since 1985.

I wonder if he had ever fired his gun in the field. (That's not meant as a pointed or leading question.)
   1475. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5629470)
FWIW....

Trump campaign official Rick Gates expected to plead guilty and cooperate with special counsel in probe of Russian election interference
The expected plea comes after Robert S. Mueller III filed new charges Thursday against Gates and Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign manager, escalating pressure to strike a deal with the special counsel investigating Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

Gates served as a senior adviser during the campaign. He and Manafort are accused of a multiyear scheme to use their income from working for a Ukrainian political party to buy properties, evade taxes and support a lavish lifestyle even after their business connections in Kiev evaporated.

Gates and Manafort were hit with a 12-count indictment in October — the first criminal charges in Mueller’s probe, which is seeking to understand whether any of Trump’s associates coordinated with Russia to influence the election’s outcome.
   1476. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5629471)
#1418:
The cop had the tactical advantage? He didn't hear the shots, didn't know where the shooter was, thought the shooter was in the parking lot, didn't know how many shooters there were, and didn't know what the shooter was using but, yeah, he had the tactical advantage. Despite what we see on TV the expectation is not that all cops are as good as John McClane.

#1431:
The school cop wouldn't have known who the shooter was (or shooters were) and wouldn't have been able to identify them until they were shooting at them. They guy isn't wearing a sandwich board and ringing a bell. And, as noted, cops are pretty much trained to spray and pray - in a crowded environment like a school, a cop is liable to come out with a dozen bodies on his conscience.

People appear to be just making stuff up. Somehow the Deputy didn't "hear the shots" yet managed to make his way to the building, but not go inside? That's not what the article linked in #1412 indicates: the Deputy "heard the gunfire, rushed to the building but never went inside".

The article in #1412 is also quite clear as to what the appropriate procedure was. Post-Columbine, the training has been to NOT wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and eliminate the threat. That doesn't mean rush in blindly with no regard to his own safety, but it certainly doesn't mean waiting outside, either. I suppose it's not surprising that folks who appear to be creating their own "facts" are also creating their own "superior" tactical procedures, but they're making stuff up in both cases.
   1477. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5629472)
Turley:

Did Mueller Withhold Evidence From Michael Flynn?

February 23, 2018 jonathanturley

The court order for Special Counsel Robert Mueller to share exculpatory evidence with former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn has raised intriguing questions about whether evidence might have been withheld from Flynn before his plea deal. As I stated on air, I do not believe that the issuance of this order by Judge Sullivan should be assumed as evidence of any second thoughts by Flynn. As I state in my column below in The Hill newspaper, I do not see a real option for Flynn in trying to undo his plea deal. However, the disclosure of the evidence could raise questions for Flynn.

...

In comparison with Flynn’s alleged work on turning over dissidents for possible execution, his meeting with the Russians was hardly shocking. Flynn was the incoming national security adviser, and his meeting with foreign representatives was neither unprecedented nor unlawful. Yet, acting Attorney General Sally Yates cited the meeting as the reason for her own intervention with the White House. Yates cited the Logan Act as her concern, which was hardly credible.

The Logan Act, which makes it illegal for citizens to intervene in disputes or controversies between the United States and foreign governments, is widely viewed as unconstitutional and has never been used to convict a single U.S. citizen since it was enacted in 1799. Yates’s pushing of a Logan Act investigation seriously undermines her credibility in the actions that she took before being rightfully fired by Trump for ordering the entire Justice Department not to defend his first immigration order.

It is not clear what Mueller revealed to Flynn about these matters before Flynn took the plea deal. Likewise, it is not clear how much of the recent scandal over the controversial FISA surveillance orders impacted Flynn. Another reason Flynn might be having buyer’s remorse is that none of the indictments, including the massive indictment last week, has alleged, let alone established, collusion with the Russians and Trump. Collusion was the original purpose of the special counsel investigation. If the special counsel were to clear Trump of collusion, it could well prompt him to issue pardons to end what he claims to be a partisan “hoax.” If Flynn were to back out of cooperation, he might strengthen his case for a pardon.

...

One would hope that Trump’s aides would strongly counsel against such a move, particularly for defendants like Manafort, who faces an array of very serious (though unrelated) charges. The most obvious recipient of such a presidential action would be Flynn, who faces a questionable false-statement charge and had to sell his home to cover legal costs before finally accepting the plea.

If Flynn does feel that material evidence was withheld, he would face a tough task in walking this cat backwards. First, the view of investigators of his innocence does not prevent later investigators from reaching an opposing conclusion. Second, the general rule for plea deals is caveat emptor, or buyer beware. If you needed more evidence, you had to demand it before the deal. It is not clear if Flynn made such a demand and was not given material evidence. However, if the plea were tossed, it would release not just Flynn but Mueller.

The threat from Mueller is obvious: Break the deal, face the wheel. Flynn could be hit with an indictment with more crimes and a co-defendant in the form of his son. In the end, Flynn still has few options that seem to run the gambit from ruin to near-ruin. He is currently at near-ruin.


Much more at the link regarding Sullivan's order.
   1478. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5629473)
Thank you, Trump: Shut down of coal plants accelerates

Donald Trump’s War on Coal continues unabated as coal plants are closing at an increasing rate.

… by end-2017, owners of coal plants – which directly compete with gas in many areas of the country – had announced 12.5GW of planned retirements for 2018, foreshadowing the largest year for coal decommissioning since the 15GW of retirements in 2015.



Posted for amusement, and no other reason. And yes I know Hillary once said something something mean about someone that one time or something.
   1479. dlf Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5629474)
So you honestly believe that a firefighter is supposed to lose a limb as part of their duty and if they size up a situation and so no thanks they should be fired because they opted not lose a limb?


I think that a firefighter is supposed to take risks that might result in the loss of a limb -- or even their life -- in some circumstances. My step-brother(*) works for a county fire department (then as a Captain assigned to paramedic duties, now in a light duty administrative role) and was injured on the job while rushing into a burning building to help evacuate the premises. He has now had three spinal surgeries and will never be fully recovered. He thought there was a reasonable chance of being hurt, but not a certainty of it. Had he believed that he certainly would be killed, he wouldn't have been obligated to go in. Had he believed there was a near certainty of significant injury, but in so doing, he would save a life, he would have been obligated to take that risk. This is why I consider these folks heroes.

(*) Same step-brother who, as a member of the National Guard saw active duty in Saudi & Kuwait as part of Desert Storm / Desert Shield, who has been involved in the exchange of live gunfire, and who thinks the idea of having armed teachers in our schools is ludicrous.
   1480. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5629475)
To sum up? Yeah, Barney Fife was outgunned as #### if all he had was a .45 pistol.


It's hard to believe (*) this is even being seriously disputed.

(*) Well, not really. Chickenhawks gonna chickenhawk.

   1481. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5629476)
The article in #1412 is also quite clear as to what the appropriate procedure was. Post-Columbine, the training has been to NOT wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and eliminate the threat. That doesn't mean rush in blindly with no regard to his own safety, but it certainly doesn't mean waiting outside, either. I suppose it's not surprising that folks who appear to be creating their own "facts" are also creating their own "superior" tactical procedures, but they're making stuff up in both cases.


Um, I don't think your diving powers are awake yet...

Specific to the deputy's actions - the coalitions are odd ones.

I, Jason, Miserlou, and David (perhaps others) all say the deputy failed miserably and had he not quit, should have fired.

SBB, McCoy, and Ray (and perhaps others) seem to be the ones who aren't faulting him for cowering outside.

You probably need a different brush for this one rather than just the usual one.
   1482. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5629477)

Catholics have beliefs. By routing adoption services through them, the government is tying those beliefs to anyone who wants to use the adoption services - which isn't fair to the adoptors, the adoptees, or the adoption agency.
This is based on an apparent misunderstanding of how adoption services work. They're not exclusive, so this is not like when states used to have laws against gay adoption. Allowing Catholic Charities to provide adoption services does not in any way affect the ability of gay couples to adopt. The attack on these agencies, like the attack on the florists or cake bakers, is purely ideological, based on the idea that the government allowing anyone to discriminate is a personal affront. States that have forced Catholic Charities to provide adoption services to gay couples have seen Catholic Charities simply stop offering adoption services entirely; this hasn't increased any choice for gay couples in those states. It just negatively impacted everyone, by reducing the number of people out there working to place kids in homes.

The lawsuit itself seems like a stretch; the Supreme Court has held that the constitution forbids government discrimination against gays, but that is not the same thing as saying that it cannot give funding to someone who discriminates against gays. And Trinity Lutheran seems to me to foreclose the establishment clause argument.


I did enjoy the end quote from the article BDC posted:
“We feel well-suited to do it, given how much work we’ve done,” Marouf said. “We felt like we could be a culturally sensitive home.”
Well, unless the culture is religious; they're not at all sensitive to that one.
   1483. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5629478)
He was. Jeeze, how many times do you have to be told.



Link

The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people..
.
.
Peterson’s resignation ends a more than three-decade career with the agency, where he was often regarded by peers as a dependable employee who could communicate well with both staff and students.

The 6-foot-5-inch native of Illinois started with the agency in July 1985, after studying at Miami-Dade Community College and Florida International University, according to records released Thursday by the sheriff’s office.

Peterson had been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He was considered a trusted officer who “values his position and takes pride in protecting the students, faculty and staff at his school,” a 2017 performance review said.


I don't actually see much about his training there and what his non-school-guarding experience is.

I do see from TFA that Scott Israel is a jackass.
   1484. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5629479)
Risking a limb to save a child, yes.

Again, what's the probability? If it's a 50/50 shot should they do it? If a person is 70% likely to be horribly injured should they act? I'm fine with somebody sizing up the situation and thinking there is a 1% chance (and the reality is that a 1% chance is a really high probability) of losing a limb and still doing it. But 10%? That's pretty darn high. We'd probably run out of firefighters and policemen if they routinely ignored 10% chances for catastrophic injuries. It's simple actuarial math.
   1485. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5629481)
Much more at the link regarding Sullivan's order.


The straws the Trumpkins grasp at keep getting thinner and thinner. Meanwhile ...

Mueller’s Scorecard

Washington Post: “To date, Mueller’s team has brought more than 100 criminal counts against 19 different individuals. In four cases, the individuals pleaded guilty before the charges were made public. Thirteen of the individuals are Russian nationals involved in efforts to influence the 2016 election through social media. Four of the individuals facing or pleading to charges worked for or with Trump’s campaign team.”


But yeah I am totally sure Mueller has acted recklessly and is irresponsibly charging everyone in sight, well except Evil Hillary! It is a mystery why the Republican head of the investigation, appointed by a Republican member of a Republican Administration is being so reluctant to go after the REAL villain, Hillary Clinton (Democrat)! I imagine death threats or blackmail figure heavily in some people's imaginations.
   1486. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5629483)
SBB, McCoy, and Ray (and perhaps others) seem to be the ones who aren't faulting him for cowering outside.


He could have, and probably should have, been a bit more brave -- but as I noted earlier, armed and trained men have been fleeing and deserting free-fire zones, including in wars, since the invention of the gun. He did the honorable thing by turning in his badge.

My broader point is the one to focus on -- depending on "good guys with guns" to stop attacks with military-caliber rifles is insane and doomed to failure. It was in place in Parkland and failed.
   1487. The Good Face Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5629485)
I, Jason, Miserlou, and David (perhaps others) all say the deputy failed miserably and had he not quit, should have fired.


He did fail and he should have been fired if he hadn't quit. But I'm not going to fault him too much; it's hard to run towards the sound of the guns. I wouldn't relish the chance to shoot out it with a guy armed with a long gun if all I had was a pistol. That's a really good way to get dead.
   1488. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5629486)
I, Jason, Miserlou, and David (perhaps others) all say the deputy failed miserably and had he not quit, should have fired.

Ahem.

Anyhow, I would nitpick a bit over "miserably" given the batshit circumstance, but he certainly failed and certainly should have been fired.
   1489. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5629488)
So you honestly believe that a firefighter is supposed to lose a limb as part of their duty and if they size up a situation and so no thanks they should be fired because they opted not lose a limb?
I honestly believe that a firefight is supposed to take the risk of losing a limb as part of his duty of rescuing people from fires. Of course, the risk must be balanced against the reward; rescuing people necessitates that one take significant risks, but putting out a fire in an unoccupied building does not. (Though of course keeping the fire from spreading to other buildings ups the reward factor.) "I can't do my job; I might get hurt" is not something that firefighters or cops or soldiers get to say.
   1490. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5629489)
I don't actually see much about his training there


The claim that he was "trained" to confront a murderous loon spraying bullets with an AR-15 is entirely unproven.
   1491. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5629490)
I, Jason, Miserlou, and David (perhaps others) all say the deputy failed miserably and had he not quit, should have fired.


I would need to know more specifics to a fully informed opinion, but at first brush, yup.

SBB, McCoy, and Ray (and perhaps others) seem to be the ones who aren't faulting him for cowering outside.


As a person I don't fault him for doing what I would likely do (freeze and or cower; though one never really knows until it happens, does one?). I wouldn't fault many people for a variety of behaviors, but yeah, they probably shouldn't be in jobs that expect those behaviors then should they?
   1492. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5629491)
It's interesting. I think had you given that coach (Aaron Feis) the deputy's gun and taken the safety off for him, Feis would have tried.
   1493. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5629492)
To sum up? Yeah, Barney Fife was outgunned as #### if all he had was a .45 pistol.



It's hard to believe (*) this is even being seriously disputed.


I think Jason is the only one who has disputed this.

I don't dispute that he was outgunned - just that outgunned or not, he was a sworn and trained LEO - and while this wouldn't be something any LEO expects to face on a regular basis, it's still a possibility and if he's not prepared to accept that responsibility, he shouldn't have been in the profession he was in.

None of that invalidates my opinion that measures should be taken such that he wouldn't be so badly outgunned... but the world is what it is.
   1494. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:00 AM (#5629493)
I, Jason, Miserlou, and David (perhaps others) all say the deputy failed miserably and had he not quit, should have fired.
I would add that the sheriff himself certainly said that the guy failed miserably. (To be sure, the sheriff is dealing with public outrage and you could argue that he's CYAing -- but we see in plenty of other such situations where they circle the wagons behind the blue line and say that the cop acted appropriately, no matter how much public outrage there is. And if it were just the sheriff covering his own ass, I'd expect to see other cops or the union speaking up (perhaps anonymously) defending the deputy and criticizing the sheriff.)
   1495. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:00 AM (#5629494)
1388

But it is their job to incur the risk of injury, not to go in only in conditions of perfect, guaranteed safety.


Hell, Jack Pearson went back for the ####### dog...
   1496. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:00 AM (#5629496)
Well, unless the culture is religious; they're not at all sensitive to that one.

Does the article say they aren't Catholic, or religious?

EDIT: Nope.
   1497. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5629498)

People appear to be just making stuff up. Somehow the Deputy didn't "hear the shots" yet managed to make his way to the building, but not go inside? That's not what the article linked in #1412 indicates: the Deputy "heard the gunfire, rushed to the building but never went inside".

The article in #1412 is also quite clear as to what the appropriate procedure was. Post-Columbine, the training has been to NOT wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and eliminate the threat. That doesn't mean rush in blindly with no regard to his own safety, but it certainly doesn't mean waiting outside, either. I suppose it's not surprising that folks who appear to be creating their own "facts" are also creating their own "superior" tactical procedures, but they're making stuff up in both cases.


The previous article linked said he didn't hear the shots, did not know where the shooter was, and that he thought the shooter was in a parking lot near him. I find that believable (the didn't hear the shots and didn't know where he was) as a ton of students inside the school didn't hear the shots either and didn't know where the shooter was as well. But let's say he did hear shots. So what? He knows shooter/s were in the building somewhere how does that change the equation?

How do you know the training for police officers is now to rush into a building by yourself with a handgun and take on whatever is inside?
   1498. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5629499)
Of course, the risk must be balanced against the reward;


That's exactly what Barney Fife did, and his balancing was quite accurate. Given the extent to which he was outgunned, his chances of accomplishing anything meaningful were extremely miniscule to non-existent.
   1499. -- Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5629503)
How do you know the training for police officers is now to rush into a building by yourself with a handgun and take on whatever is inside?


He doesn't, and it isn't.
   1500. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: February 23, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5629505)
He could have, and probably should have, been a bit more brave -- but as I noted earlier, armed and trained men have been fleeing and deserting free-fire zones, including in wars, since the invention of the gun. He did the honorable thing by turning in his badge.

My broader point is the one to focus on -- depending on "good guys with guns" to stop attacks with military-caliber rifles is insane and doomed to failure. It was in place in Parkland and failed.


A point that - as I said, I do not disagree with.

I mean, I've been equally hard on police involved in bad shootings - and both here in this circumstance, and in those circumstances - my opinion is consistent. It's a difficult job and there are certainly perils most jobs do not entail. But that's the job... and if you can't do that job, you need to find a different job. FTR - I'm also much in favor of the salaries, benefits, training, and qualification/screening necessary to ensure we get people who are capable and willing to do that job.

He did fail and he should have been fired if he hadn't quit. But I'm not going to fault him too much; it's hard to run towards the sound of the guns. I wouldn't relish the chance to shoot out it with a guy armed with a long gun if all I had was a pistol. That's a really good way to get dead.


What if it was a long gun that was only pump or bolt action?

Ahem.


Sorry Lassus - what's the coke equivalent protocol on this kind of thing? A coke zero :-)?
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