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Monday, February 19, 2018

OTP 19 February 2018: Does Buster Posey Have a Post-playing Career in Politics?

Buster Posey is one of the most accomplished catchers in baseball history. At 30 years old, he already has a Hall of Fame resume.

In eight full seasons with the Giants, Posey has won National League Rookie of the Year, NL MVP, four Silver Slugger awards, a Gold Glove, and is a five-time All-Star. While he still has plenty of years left, Posey has naturally thought a bit about what he would like to do once his playing days are done.

But, politics? Well, kind of.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 19, 2018 at 08:04 AM | 2205 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: buster posey, giants, off-topic, politics

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   1801. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5629994)
Flop for Ray!
   1802. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5629995)
Using Chrome and I've had no issues today.
   1803. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5630010)
You've presented no evidence the technique you're advocating is actually effective. Even in the article you linked they have to admit you need several highly trained men for the plan to have any chance of success, and in this case you're decrying a glorified guidance counselor not charging like he was the offspring of John Rambo and John McClain raised by John Spartan.

This too is a lie. The cited article and numerous others indicate that the post-Columbine response tor an active shooter is to go in with what you have in a rapid deployment to neutralize the shooter as soon as possible, even if it's a single officer.. That didn't happen with the Douglas shooting, not with the SRO stationed at the school, nor after 3 other Broward County Sheriffs Deputies arrived. This was not a building with a single entrance which the gunman was covering, and there has been no showing that the shooter even had a sightline for the entrance the Deputy was at. Calling the SRO a "glorified guidance counselor" shows how typically disingenuous Brianson is being here - it's long been established that a SRO is a regular Deputy Sheriff. who happens to be stationed at a school. Again, Brianson isn't disputing me here, he's disputing the expertise of the entire professional law enforcement community, which adopted the rapid deployment response strategy after Columbine.
   1804. Srul Itza Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5630014)
Heh...I was there for the "cop car on top of the dome" hack. Was walking to my morning class from Eastgate (married student housing) and my brain was struggling hard to figure out why the heck there were lights atop the dome.


I was a Bexleyite myself (probably no big surprise), 73-77, back when there still was a Bexley.
   1805. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5630016)
Yeah there's been a weird JetBlue pop-up ad that's been causing a problem for the last few days on both Firefox and Explorer. Takes about 10-15 tries to bypass -- otherwise you go right to the pop-up and you can't get through. Which back door have you been successful at, Howie?
   1806. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5630017)
There is nothing corporate about the man.

That's not a positive tho, that's the absence of a negative.

(also not really true, but whatever, granting the premise)


Well, it cuts both ways. It can obviously be a negative; social strictures and norms have been put in place over the years for a reason. They're generally helpful. But OTOH they're confining, and so it can be a positive for one to shed them at times. Doing so expands the tools one has at one's disposal. This is true of Trump both as a candidate and as president. He can go on offense in ways that his predecessors wouldn't, and on defense he's immune to some of the standard and effective attacks that are used in politics.

By the way, it seems none of the OTP baseball fans caught the origin of the above reference. It's what Keith Hernandez once said about Lenny Dykstra. Page 209.
   1807. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5630018)
Not long after the platform subcommittee meeting, the Post's "Trump campaign guts GOP's anti-Russia stance on Ukraine" story was published, and a new conventional wisdom began to form: The Trump team, doing the bidding of Vladimir Putin, gutted the GOP platform's position on behalf of Russia.


Yeah, like so much of the RussiaRussia stuff, this narrative too is a lie.

I don't think people inside the RussiaRussia bubble realize how crazy they look to the rest of us.
   1808. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5630020)
In major collusion news - Bernie Sanders Promoted False Story On Reporting Russian Trolls:
Bernie Sanders is taking credit for action to combat the Russian incursion into the 2016 election that he didn’t have anything to do with — and didn’t actually happen. Twice this week, in response to questions about whether he benefited from the Russian effort, as prosecutors allege, or did enough to stop it, Sanders said a staffer passed information to Hillary Clinton’s aides about a suspected Russian troll operation.

It turns out that the purported Sanders’ staffer who said he tried to sound the alarm was a campaign volunteer who acted on his own, without any contact or direction from the Vermont senator or his staff. When the volunteer, John Mattes of San Diego, said he communicated with the Clinton campaign in local press accounts, he was confusing it for a super PAC supportive of Clinton.
. . .
Sanders and his top aide were at turns defiant and defensive during and after his interview with a Vermont radio station, even initially disputing special counsel Robert Mueller’s finding in his indictment last week that the Russians backed his campaign.

Unsuccessful candidate favored by the Russians can't get his story straight? Looking to run again in 2020? A guy that "honeymooned" in the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and has many pro-Moscow policy positions? Hmmm.
   1809. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5630021)
School shooting survivor's father doctored an email from CNN's producer:

Father of school shooting survivor who claims CNN gave his son 'scripted' town hall question is accused of doctoring emails with the producer

Colton Haab, 17, refused to attend CNN’s town hall after claiming that CNN executive producer Carrie Stevenson scripted a question for him

His father Glenn Haab shared an email exchange between him and Stevenson with Fox News and HuffPost

CNN then released a different version of the exchange between the pair to Business Insider which shows the email was doctored

Trump weighed in on the controversy tweeting 'Just like so much of CNN, Fake News. That's why their ratings are so bad! MSNBC may be worse'


The article shows both versions. Not a good look.
   1810. Count Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5630022)
Yeah, like so much of the RussiaRussia stuff, this narrative too is a lie.

I don't think people inside the RussiaRussia bubble realize how crazy they look to the rest of us.


No, as JE wrote, the Trump campaign changed proposed language in the platform.
   1811. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5630024)
No, as JE wrote, the Trump campaign changed proposed language in the platform.


Yes, "changed"... to make it less favorable to Russia.

"Changed" indeed.
   1812. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5630026)
A good mother and daughter with a gun.

Crazy video. No idea how the mother or daughter didn't get shot either by the robber or by friendly fire from the daughter.
   1813. Count Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5630029)
Yes, "changed"... to make it less favorable to Russia.

"Changed" indeed.


No, there was tougher proposed language that the Trump campaign specifically asked to be taken out. See JE's post 1796 or other reporting about this.

You can make a strong substantive case for not including the proposed language, but given that the campaign doesn't seem to have cared about anything else in the platform, and given Manafort and Gates's ties to the pro-Putin politician in Ukraine and all the other evidence of collusion, the change to the proposed language has come under scrutiny.
   1814. tshipman Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5630030)
Unsuccessful candidate favored by the Russians can't get his story straight? Looking to run again in 2020? A guy that "honeymooned" in the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and has many pro-Moscow policy positions? Hmmm.


One of the many reasons why I could never support Sanders. Good thing he came nowhere near the presidency. Bad thing someone worse did.
   1815. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5630031)
Bad thing someone worse did.
Come on, she wasn't worse than Bernie.
   1816. BDC Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5630032)
Today's movie: Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. Took me a while to catch up to this one, which must be in its last pre-Oscars release – or maybe I stumbled into a leg of the Best Picture marathon.

A superior film, though as (I think) Greg K said, its political reference is pretty limited and may be more about the Irish Catholic Church (in an early throwaway scene) than anything American. (Race is a constant dynamic but a superficial one.) The setting and action were believably American, just a theatrical, heightened, Martin-McDonagh version of America.

I'm not sure what genre I would put it in. Ozark Noir, maybe, or more generally Southern Gothic. Early on, a character is seen reading Flannery O'Connor and that seems to strike a keynote.

   1817. BrianBrianson Posted: February 24, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5630033)
This too is a lie.


I'm not sure why you're being so defensive. I guess it's embarrassing getting called out for shaming a man for not blinding rushing in and adding to the slaughter, but instead rooting for a gunfight that would've left more kids dead.

But the defensiveness is obvious and should be just as embarrassing. One can't "lie" about a counterfactual, at worst I could be wrong. Though in this case, it's pretty unlikely - sending a guy into a shootout who doesn't have the skills or training to handle the situation is just gonna result in more bullets flying and more people getting shot. The guy might be title a deputy sheriff, but he's fundamentally a hall monitor.

Push for bigger gunfights that leave more kids dead if you want. But own it.
   1818. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5630035)
This too is a lie. The cited article and numerous others indicate that the post-Columbine response tor an active shooter is to go in with what you have in a rapid deployment to neutralize the shooter as soon as possible, even if it's a single officer.. That didn't happen with the Douglas shooting, not with the SRO stationed at the school, nor after 3 other Broward County Sheriffs Deputies arrived. This was not a building with a single entrance which the gunman was covering, and there has been no showing that the shooter even had a sightline for the entrance the Deputy was at. Calling the SRO a "glorified guidance counselor" shows how typically disingenuous Brianson is being here - it's long been established that a SRO is a regular Deputy Sheriff. who happens to be stationed at a school.


Meh, even if he'd had serious "training" in the past if all he'd been doing for the past several years was guarding a school then he was a bit too mall coppy for my tastes. It's not like he was regularly out doing serious police work (if there is such a thing) and alternately took some days at the school every few months.

And he seemed to understand himself enough to know that he lacked some combination of the training or the weaponry or the helmet/Kevlar shields or the intel or the mental makeup to do anything more.

If he was overly afraid and rushed into the building anyway he might well do more harm than good in there.

Again, Brianson isn't disputing me here, he's disputing the expertise of the entire professional law enforcement community, which adopted the rapid deployment response strategy after Columbine.


I'm sort of surprised to learn that people are surprised that a few cops were hiding out behind their cars rather than going in. That's sort of what cops do, enough of the time. I seem to recall that there was some criticism of the response in the Orlando shooting on this basis, although I haven't gone back to check.
   1819. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5630036)
Brian I'm generally sympathetic to your point here, but you could tone the rhetoric down a bit.
   1820. Greg K Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5630037)
I'm not sure what genre I would put it in. Ozark Noir, maybe, or more generally Southern Gothic. Early on, a character is seen reading Flannery O'Connor and that seems to strike a keynote.

A friend of mine is a devout Catholic who just published a piece on Flannery O'Connor (and just came out with a book on the Catholic idea of vocation in Evelyn Waugh's work). So, as you can imagine, he is a pretty big fan of the McDonagh catalogue.

As a sidenote: I just skimmed past your handle on that post and I thought you were Ray. I guess it has something to do with the three-letter acronym, as well as the fact that I had discussed Three Billboards with Ray a few weeks ago (so I assumed that's what the reference was). By the end of the post I was thinking...this doesn't really sound like Ray...
   1821. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5630038)
One can't "lie" about a counterfactual,
The lie is your repeated claim that the guy is something other than a police officer. He doesn't just have the "title" of deputy sheriff. He is a deputy sheriff. Not a "guidance counselor" or "hall monitor" or janitor. Not even a security guard. He is a cop.

This isn't like the guy who washes out of the police academy and becomes a mall cop. If you want to argue that a police officer shouldn't confront a school shooter, then make that argument. But don't pretend he's something other than a police officer.

Though in this case, it's pretty unlikely - sending a guy into a shootout who doesn't have the skills or training to handle the situation is just gonna result in more bullets flying and more people getting shot.
"Police should let a mass murderer have free rein to keep shooting masses of unarmed children until his ammo runs out because someone might get hurt if the police try to confront him."
   1822. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5630041)
One can't "lie" about a counterfactual, at worst I could be wrong.

No, as noted in #1821, you have repeatedly lied about basic facts surrounding the Douglas school shooting, without providing a single link to any source supporting your contentions, while ignoring repeated evidence that you are mistaken. You have similarly argued that the rapid deployment strategy isn't now the standard operating procedure for active shooter incidents, again without providing a single source other than your own snarky condescending opinion. Quite a performance, even for BBTF-OTP.
   1823. BDC Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5630044)
skimmed past your handle on that post and I thought you were Ray

Heh, Ray, if you're there, did you see Three Billboards? Probably not, as it's Oscar-nominated. But it falls partway into the genre of Liam Neeson "I will look for you, I will find you" movies, albeit with Liam Neeson nowhere in sight … and I seem to remember you like those.
   1824. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5630048)
Almost pulled the trigger three times on three billboards but alas have not. And now this weekend I'll be seeing Game Night starring the esteemed Jason Bateman. (While Bateman plays the same character in every movie, I do love his deadpanned expressions -- the sort of paused looks with the dry wit as humorous things happen around him.)

Didn't really know that about 3BB. Maybe it'll spur me to see it. It just feels like a movie that is full of itself, as so many of the Oscar movies do. I'm mainly getting that from the trailer which shows the scene where McDormand drives by the on-site reporter slowly with her car while saying something holier than thou to the reporter. It just feels too preachy to me. From that one scene I conclude that I don't care about the annoying McDormand character's plight, and if I can't care about the main characters, I'm out.
   1825. Tom T Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5630055)
I was a Bexleyite myself (probably no big surprise), 73-77, back when there still was a Bexley.


Wow, hadn't realized they had closed Bexley. And now they have closed down Senior House.... I'd assume East Campus is safe, but it makes one wonder.
   1826. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5630056)
As Ray points out, sleeping beauty, the Nunes memo was released. As was the one from Grassley. (Next, we await the IG report.) Meanwhile, Schiff no longer seems all that interested in his own damn document.

That's the hilarious part of it. While Rip Van Wall was sleeping through the release of the Nunes memo it was the Schiff memo that people suddenly lost interest in.
And right on cue, the Schiff memo has been released. It essentially denies the claims of Nunes/Grassley that the dossier was key to the Page warrant application, and also denies that anything material was omitted from the application.

The bottom line is that we need to see the application itself, or we're just left with dueling partisan takes on the issue.
   1827. Greg K Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5630059)
Didn't really know that about 3BB. Maybe it'll spur me to see it. It just feels like a movie that is full of itself, as so many of the Oscar movies do. I'm mainly getting that from the trailer which shows the scene where McDormand drives by the on-site reporter slowly with her car while saying something holier than thou to the reporter. It just feels too preachy to me. From that one scene I conclude that I don't care about the annoying McDormand character's plight, and if I can't care about the main characters, I'm out.

That scene is actually more representative of a stylistic tic McDonagh has. He loves him some profanity. This compilation of swearing in In Bruges is probably the best example. McDonagh likes his main characters to be as crude as possible. I'm not sure if it comes across quite as successfully in Three Billboards. McDonagh's forays into American culture don't seem quite as natural, and that scene in particular feels a bit forced. It is a bit preachy in that in she's getting on the media for exploiting her daughter's death. But that's pretty much the only 30 seconds in the whole movie where that theme is explored. It seems far more important to the larger movie in that it's an opportunity for her character to yell at some more people.

Part of why that scene feels a little forced to me might also be that it makes for good trailer bait. It's a quick scene that gives you an idea of her character even taken out of context, but in the movie itself it's just kinda tossed in.
   1828. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5630061)
He is a deputy sheriff.


Not anymore.
   1829. Howie Menckel Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5630062)
Yeah there's been a weird JetBlue pop-up ad that's been causing a problem for the last few days on both Firefox and Explorer. Takes about 10-15 tries to bypass -- otherwise you go right to the pop-up and you can't get through. Which back door have you been successful at, Howie?

just googling "baseball think factory," and clicking on a page other than the main page. then once in, I got to the main page.

who knows yet if some beloved BBTF characters have disappeared?
   1830. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5630065)
Didn't notice any JetBlue issue in Safari.
   1831. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5630067)
. . . who knows yet if some beloved BBTF characters have disappeared?

The Russians may have already put Smitty in their Pants Gulag.
   1832. tshipman Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5630068)
One big question that I have:

The Schiff memo says that Page lied to the FBI in March 2016 and again 2017 and they knew it.

So why has he not been charged? I get that it's only speculation, but is the FBI in the habit of not prosecuting false statements? I honestly don't know what the protocol is.
   1833. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5630074)
Re the gun control debate I think it's worth it to remind folks what the starting point is -- the text of the Second Amendment -- and what the Heller decision holds.

It's clear to me that the pro-2A people have the Constitution on their side.

Here's the text of the Second Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And the Supreme Court-issued summary of its 2008 Heller decision:

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008

District of Columbia law bans handgun possession by making it a crime to carry an unregistered firearm and prohibiting the registration of handguns; provides separately that no person may carry an unlicensed handgun, but authorizes the police chief to issue 1-year licenses;
and requires residents to keep lawfully owned firearms unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock or similar device.
Respondent Heller, a D. C. special policeman, applied to register
a handgun he wished to keep at home, but the District refused.
He filed this suit seeking, on Second Amendment grounds, to enjoin
the city from enforcing the bar on handgun registration, the licensing
requirement insofar as it prohibits carrying an unlicensed firearm in
the home, and the trigger-lock requirement insofar as it prohibits the
use of functional firearms in the home. The District Court dismissed
the suit, but the D. C. Circuit reversed, holding that the Second
Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess firearms and
that the city’s total ban on handguns, as well as its requirement that
firearms in the home be kept nonfunctional even when necessary for
self-defense, violated that right.

Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but
does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative
clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it
connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation
of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically
capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists
feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in
order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing
army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress
power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear
arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.
Pp. 22–28.
(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous armsbearing
rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately
followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.
(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious
interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals
that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms.
Pp. 30–32.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts
and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the
late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation.
Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553, nor
Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 264–265, refutes the individualrights
interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not
limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather
limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by
the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any
manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed
weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment
or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast
doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by
felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms
in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those
“in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition
of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
Pp. 54–56.

3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to
self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban
on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an
entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the
lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny
the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this
prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense
of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional
muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the
home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible
for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and
is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument
that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy
his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement.
Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment
rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and
must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.
478 F. 3d 370, affirmed.

SCALIA, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS,
C. J., and KENNEDY, THOMAS, and ALITO, JJ., joined. STEVENS, J., filed a
dissenting opinion, in which SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ.,
joined. BREYER, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which STEVENS,
SOUTER, and GINSBURG, JJ., joined.
   1834. Srul Itza Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5630075)
Wow, hadn't realized they had closed Bexley


Closed, hell, they tore the thing down.

It was a great dorm, since it used to be an apartment building, so every unit had a full kitchen and working fireplace, and there were either 2, 3 or 4 people to a unit (double; double and single; double and two singles). Much more like apartment living than dorm living.

And it was right next the main steps, the student center and kresge (and the chapel, for what that was worth).

What a loss.
   1835. puck Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5630078)
Did the DC law seek to ban all handguns, or only a certain class (such as semi auto)?

I suppose the interesting questions are to what degree limits can be placed. Could a law ban all semi-automatic rifles or handguns, assuming that could be defined. That would still leave revolvers and pump rifles, shotguns, etc. for self defense.

Though I could see concealed carry advocates arguing that the subcompact semi autos are their preferred class of guns. Snubbie revolvers are still popular but I think small semi autos are far more popular, as they can get even smaller, have a slightly higher capacity and are more quickly reloaded via their magazines. (Snubbie revolvers usually hold 5 rounds and don't work well with speed loaders.)
   1836. tshipman Posted: February 24, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5630079)
It's clear to me that the pro-2A people have the Constitution on their side.


2A is just an eye of the beholder thing.

For 200+ years, it meant one thing, for the last 10, it's meant another.

Many of the bill of rights have had inflection points in their interpretation. It's unclear whether the last 10 years is the new normal, or if that decision will be hollowed out and eventually replaced.

I think it's just misleading to say that anything about the 2A is clear.
   1837. Count Posted: February 24, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5630080)
Heller isn't directly relevant to most gun control proposals. Several circuit courts have declined to extend it to AR-15 type weapons and the Supreme Court has declined to hear appeals on that point. In ther words you could ban all AR-15s and the like under existing law.
   1838. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5630083)
Good for Mona Charen:
"I'm actually going to twist this around a bit and say that I'm disappointed in people on our side for being hypocrites about sexual harassers and abusers of women who are in our party, who are sitting in the White House, who brag about their extramarital affairs, who brag about mistreating women," she said.

Declining to mention Trump by name, Charen said conservatives are guilty of "look[ing] the other way" when it comes to the president and other Republican men who have faced allegations of sexual misconduct.

"This was a party that was ready to ... endorse Roy Moore for Senate in the state of Alabama even though he was a credibly accused child molester," Charen said.

"You cannot claim that you stand for women, and put up with that," she told the crowd, as several members of the audience shouted, "Not true!"

Charen's comments were met with heavy boos inside the conference hall, and she was later spotted leaving the conference with a three-person security detail.

Earlier on in the panel, she issued a strong rebuke of Marion Le Pen, the niece of former French right-wing presidential candidate Marine Le Pen, whose own appearance at CPAC drew scrutiny from some conservatives who have accused her of enabling far-right groups with racist views.
Very good.
   1839. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 07:48 PM (#5630085)
The bottom line is that we need to see the application itself, or we're just left with dueling partisan takes on the issue.
Agreed, David, and yet nowhere in the 10 pages does the Schiff memo contradict the Nunes memo's assertion about McCabe's testimony: Were it not for the dossier, there would not have been a FISA warrant application.
   1840. McCoy Posted: February 24, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5630095)
That Oklahoma robbery clip is insane.
   1841. Sebastian Posted: February 24, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5630097)
The bottom line is that we need to see the application itself, or we're just left with dueling partisan takes on the issue.


Idiot says what?
   1842. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5630098)
Agreed, David, and yet nowhere in the 10 pages does the Schiff memo contradict the Nunes memo's assertion about McCabe's testimony: Were it not for the dossier, there would not have been a FISA warrant application.
It does not explicitly say -- as one would have hoped it would have (if true) -- that the Nunes memo misquoted McCabe or took his statement out of context. It does say in several places that the application did not rely heavily on the dossier, though. For example: "DOJ cited multiple sources to support the case for surveilling Page - but made only narrow use of information from Steele's sources about Page's specific activities in 2016, chiefly his suspected July 2016 meetings in Moscow with Russian officials."

But like I said, it's silly to parse dueling memos. As David French tweeted: "This is why you wait for the other side before making authoritative determinations. The Dem memo raises more than enough questions about Nunes’s characterizations to lead us all to demand the release of the underlying FISA applications." He also notes that at some point the damage to the country from this partisan bickering is worse than any damage that could come from releasing the application. (Of course, he and I might be naively thinking that releasing the application would actually quell any such bickering. When you have people on the left claiming that the NRA trained Nikolas Cruz and people on the right claiming that the students are paid actors, facts just don't really matter to too many people.)
   1843. BDC Posted: February 24, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5630101)
Two other minor notes about Three Billboards: La Dernière said that she didn't want to see it because she doesn't like billboards. I was about to object but the three billboards are pretty central to the movie. It's not just some random hipster title.

And the element of the title that might have proved politically emblematic doesn't. "Ebbing, Missouri" would seem to stand for a bleak and declining middle-America, but I didn't sense any kind of Statement about how the heartland is "ebbing."
   1844. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5630105)

If we believe the facts asserted in the Schiff memo, yet another one of the Trumpista conspiracy theories falls apart. The original judge presiding over Flynn's prosecution, Rudolph Contreras, did not recuse himself because he had approved the Carter Page FISA warrant and had some sort of unspecified conflict of interest. The theory never made any sense on its own merits -- that wouldn't be grounds for recusal -- but the Schiff memo says that the judges who approved the four FISA warrants on Page were appointed by Bush, Bush Sr., and Reagan. Contreras, OTOH, was appointed by Obama.
   1845. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 24, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5630107)
I was struck in reading both memos how embarrassingly hackish this is for the country. Both sides are intellectually dishonest hacks.
   1846. Count Posted: February 24, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5630109)
What was hackish about the Schiff memo? And DN why are you blaming partisan bickering when the GOP lines of attack have repeatedly fallen apart and there are only any memos in the first place because of the GOP?
   1847. BrianBrianson Posted: February 24, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5630113)
The Schiff memo pretty directly implied Nunes was deliberately misleading and such in his memo, when in fact Nunes is dumb enough that it can adequately be explained by his being a complete moron.
   1848. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5630115)
JR Salzman:
Where did this BS narrative come from that you can’t stop a rifle with a handgun? When has that ever been a thing? Are people’s memories really so short they don’t remember Capital Police stopping a Bernie bro with an SKS shooting at congressman on a baseball field?
   1849. Stormy JE Posted: February 24, 2018 at 11:45 PM (#5630117)
I got shat on the other day for warning teenagers who wanted to take part in protests that it's not all fun and games.

Josh Jordan possesses a not too dissimilar thought:
Can someone explain to me why we should lower the voting age to 16 because teenagers are so incredibly strong and bright, yet we're also not allowed to question anything they say because they're too fragile to handle fact checking and legitimate debate?
   1850. tshipman Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:48 AM (#5630122)
The teenagers are complaining about death threats, not "legitimate debate."

   1851. Ray (CTL) Posted: February 25, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5630123)
What was hackish about the Schiff memo? And DN why are you blaming partisan bickering when the GOP lines of attack have repeatedly fallen apart and there are only any memos in the first place because of the GOP?


Count, straight talk: If someone can't see that BOTH memos are the work of partisan hacks, that person is in one bubble or the other, but in either case is not dealing with reality.
   1852. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: February 25, 2018 at 01:15 AM (#5630124)
Where did this BS narrative come from that you can’t stop a rifle with a handgun?

From "Fistful of Dollars"?

When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.


Wearing a bullet-proof vest does change the calculus.
   1853. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: February 25, 2018 at 01:37 AM (#5630126)
Count, straight talk: If someone can't see that BOTH memos are the work of partisan hacks, that person is in one bubble or the other, but in either case is not dealing with reality.

Well, duh. That we're even discussing Carter Page's fitness for surveillance is the product of partisan hackery. "Sure, he was a known Kremlin agent wannabe that had been the subject of US intelligence community focus for years. But Hillary Clinton paid someone to say bad things about him, so Carter Page receives a Get Out Of Jail Free card. Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn get Get Out Of Jail Free cards too! Oh, and Jared Kushner... better not forget him."
   1854. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 05:51 AM (#5630128)
Um, the policeman that first stuck the Virginia shooter with bullets did so with a rifle. In all he hit him twice with rifle shots. At least two of the three bullets that struck him were from rifles and it was that first rifle hit that made the shooter drop the SKS and return fire with a 9mm handgun. The shooter only fired 8 shots with the handgun before being struck twice more.

In all the police fired more than 40 rounds at the Virginia shooter and struck him three times. Twice was with a rifle.

Standard bullet proof vests generally don't help against high velocity rounds. That's why soldiers wear a 30 pound suit and even that stuff can't stop direct hits from high powered rifles.
   1855. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2018 at 06:43 AM (#5630129)
I got shat on the other day for warning teenagers who wanted to take part in protests that it's not all fun and games.

You were disagreed with. Christ, what a fucking baby. You and Jordan both. Did you get any death threats?

(NOW you're being shat on.)
   1856. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 25, 2018 at 07:01 AM (#5630130)
Um, the policeman that first stuck the Virginia shooter with bullets did so with a rifle. In all he hit him twice with rifle shots. At least two of the three bullets that stuck him were from rifles.
Um, that was an Alexandria officer who arrived on the scene several minutes later. The Capitol Police who initially confronted Hodgkinson did so only with handguns, as did the first Alexandria cops to arrive the scene. Although the Capitol Police weren't the ones who first hit Hodgkinson, they did not run away on the grounds that his gun was better than theirs. They engaged him, which stopped him from targeting his intended victims, giving time for the Alexandria cops to arrive. Which is all that anyone could have expected Peterson to do. If he had engaged Cruz, it would've at a minimum distracted Cruz from the school kids. (And one suspects that if the other Broward cops who arrived heard that a fellow officer was under fire, they wouldn't have held back the way they reportedly did when kids were the only ones being shot at.)

Worth noting that while one of the Capitol Police officers was shot by Hodgkinson, the mere fact that he was using a semi-automatic rifle did not mean that she died, the way some people seem to think Peterson would have just because Cruz had a highpoweredmilitarystyleassaultweaponcliche. Simply having a more powerful weapon is not the determining factor in who lives or dies.
   1857. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2018 at 07:38 AM (#5630132)
Simply having a more powerful weapon is not the determining factor in who lives or dies.

Simply having Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates or Cravath, Swain & Moore on your side against Nieporent is not the determining factor in who wins the case, this is true.
   1858. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 07:46 AM (#5630133)
Both sides are hacks because Pajama Boy knows what the redacted parts of the Schiff memo includes.
   1859. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 25, 2018 at 07:56 AM (#5630134)
I’m reading this in my pajamas and I feel attacked.
   1860. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5630135)
Both sides are hacks because Pajama Boy knows what the redacted parts of the Schiff memo includes.

The Nunes memo gets vetted by the White House and released with no redactions and the White House Seal of Approval. The Schiff memo gets vetted by the same crew and comes out heavily redacted and blasted by the White House. A bargain priced Brooklyn Bridge to anyone who thinks this is just one of those things.
   1861. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5630137)
You were disagreed with. Christ, what a ####### baby. You and Jordan both. Did you get any death threats?
Decaf, dude.
   1862. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:48 AM (#5630138)
Ah ####. Juan edited, because he knows what a ####### idiot he is. Here is what he posted:

"What death threats? #KilltheNRA death threats?"

No death threats. No death threats. YOU'RE the death threat.

Hey Juan, #### you with that bull ####. You're an ass hole.
   1863. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:51 AM (#5630139)
Hey Juan, why don't you go join Pajama Boy and watch some cartoons.
   1864. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:53 AM (#5630140)
The Nunes memo gets vetted by the White House and released with no redactions and the White House Seal of Approval. The Schiff memo gets vetted by the same crew and comes out heavily redacted and blasted by the White House. A bargain priced Brooklyn Bridge to anyone who thinks this is just one of those things.
Is anyone other than Andy claiming a VRWC was at work here?
   1865. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:55 AM (#5630141)
(NOW you're being shat on.)
Huh? Oh, is one-hit blunder Joey B at it again?
   1866. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:56 AM (#5630142)
VRWC


Idiot, the WH is desperately trying to cover its ass, you ass.
   1867. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 08:58 AM (#5630143)
If Juan has me on ignore than the rest of you need to step up your game. There is no reason to engage him on any level that he finds acceptable. He is a complete douche bag.
   1868. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5630145)
Well, duh. That we're even discussing Carter Page's fitness for surveillance is the product of partisan hackery. "Sure, he was a known Kremlin agent wannabe that had been the subject of US intelligence community focus for years. But Hillary Clinton paid someone to say bad things about him, so Carter Page receives a Get Out Of Jail Free card. Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn get Get Out Of Jail Free cards too! Oh, and Jared Kushner... better not forget him."
"But Hillary Clinton paid someone to say bad things about him?" No partisan hackery here. No siree Bob.
   1869. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5630147)
I think you missed the point. Without the rifle the cops were ineffective in actually neutralizing the shooter and were taking on casualties. When the Virginia cop arrived with a rifle the gunfight ended in about a minute and in his first shot he was able to neutralize the opposing rifle.

Sure he wasn't able to aim at a bunch of scattering congressmen but without the presence of an opposing rifle the casualty list of policemen would likely have been higher. Now of course you're fine with that because police officers are supposed to die for 55k a year.

So we have two cops who were on the scene as it happened and they within seconds know where the shooter is and yet it takes 8 more minutes and the arrival of a rifle to stop the active shooter. So the Virginia shooting looks like best case scenario for combating an active shooter and in the best case scenario handguns were outclassed. Now then in Florida you have a single cop with a handgun and if he goes in what happens? Cruz finished up in 6 minutes. It is likely that the cop doesn't even impede Cruz and if does meet him he's likely going to be wounded or worse and to accomplish what? Unless he gets caught in a classroom, and there is no indication that he did that, he simply heads in another direction if he encounters the cop. As the Oklahoma robbery video shows you don't drop dead like a movie stormtrooper simply because you got struck by a bullet from a handgun.
   1870. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5630149)
Howie had a JetBlue issue the other day. This morning, still on Chrome, an Avis advert has forced me to reload the page several times.
   1871. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5630150)
BTW, the Grassley-Graham memo, released at the beginning of this month, contained way more redacted info than did the Schiff one. Was that also a VRWC conspiracy, Andy?
   1872. BDC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5630151)
Howie had a JetBlue issue the other day. This morning, still on Chrome, an Avis advert has forced me to reload the page several times

I've had no problems with BBTF – maybe I would be more productive if I did, occasionally :) – but often in recent weeks I have not been able to use Baseball-Reference on phone or tablet because I keep getting an unavoidable page telling me I've won a gift card of some sort. Maybe a more general Apple issue, but it only seems to block B-Ref. Seems like a new-style version of the old proliferating pop-up ads.
   1873. Chicago Joe Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5630152)
a character is seen reading


Can't be Ozark noir.
   1874. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5630153)
Manu Raju:
Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel, asked by @jaketapper if he will take any responsibility for the red flags raised about the shooter, says: “I can only take responsibility for what I knew about. ... I’ve given amazing leadership” to the department.
"Amazing leadership?" This dude wants to be the Trump of sheriffs?
   1875. BDC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5630155)
I’ve given amazing leadership” to the department

Chi si loda, si sbroda.
   1876. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5630156)
   1877. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5630160)
See ya, Feinstein.

The D's look to get younger.
   1878. bunyon Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5630161)
That sheriff, and the entire office, does sound terrible. Strangely, I'm unsurprised. There are corrupt sheriffs and terribly sheriff departments all over the country.

As to teenagers not being able handle being offended, sure, some of them are fragile. Others are tough. A lot in between. They're, you know, humans. Anyone calling teenagers snowflakes better check their own tribe because there are fragile flowers in all of them and basically everyone in this era of heightened political tension sees disagreement as attack (many examples above).

I don't favor lowering the voting age to 16 but it isn't ridiculous as, within a couple of years laws "in the real world" will apply to them. Why shouldn't they have some say?

However, you have to draw some line based on maturity and intellect and 18 makes as much sense as any other. I could see a better argument for putting an age-out on voting. If you're over 70, you can't vote.
   1879. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5630162)
If you're over 70, you can't vote.


With what, a cognitive test to determine competence? Good luck. Massachusetts has a hard time keeping the elderly incompetent drivers off the road.
   1880. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5630163)
As the Oklahoma robbery video shows you don't drop dead like a movie stormtrooper simply because you got struck by a bullet from a handgun.
Now all handguns are alike?
   1881. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5630164)
So you think cops are carrying desert eagles? Handguns, despite what John mcclane taught you, are not instant kill machines. They are deadly of course but I've seen plenty of clips of handgun casualties to realize that they aren't instant kill machines the vast majority of time.

I remember one clip in which a deranged defendant went after a lawyer outside the courthouse. It was point blank rangeand they were between a telephone pole. The guy emptied his clip into the lawyer. Once he's out of ammo the lawyer walks away. It doesn't even look like lawyer got hit. Certainly didn't look like a Hollywood gunshot hits. Yet the lawyer was struck 6 or 7 times. Tupac was shot 5 or 6 times with handguns in the 1994 robbery and survived. He was well enough and aware enough to flip the bird for a photo op.
   1882. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5630165)
The Nunes memo gets vetted by the White House and released with no redactions and the White House Seal of Approval. The Schiff memo gets vetted by the same crew and comes out heavily redacted and blasted by the White House. A bargain priced Brooklyn Bridge to anyone who thinks this is just one of those things.

Is anyone other than Andy claiming a VRWC was at work here?


Just remember that your newly acquired Brooklyn Bridge has to remain toll-free.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel, asked by @jaketapper if he will take any responsibility for the red flags raised about the shooter, says: “I can only take responsibility for what I knew about. ... I’ve given amazing leadership” to the department.

"Amazing leadership?" This dude wants to be the Trump of sheriffs?

Well, that would seem like a foolproof way to prevent you from ever calling him despicable.
   1883. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5630166)
   1884. BDC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:47 AM (#5630168)
What the Oklahoma video shows, to me, is that gunfights are a desperate mess. Everybody wants to imagine a clean, healthy outcome from the good-guy-with-gun scenario, but as McCoy suggests, real life is not like that.

I will agree with our right/libertarians that guns have a deterrent effect. There are undoubtedly quite a few potential burglars deterred by the possibility that homeowners are armed; there are potential robbers deterred by armed shopkeepers; there are potential road-ragers deterred by the probability (at least in Texas) that the guy they cut off and scream at might shoot them. There are even a few professors deterred by armed students in their classrooms, and if you want to mock them you should also mock burglars and muggers, I reckon.

Conversely, the use of guns in crimes is for the most part a deterrent effect: hand me your wallet, don't scream or run away or charge me, and I won't shoot.

These effects depend on guns not being fired and often on them not being produced. (Heck, bank robberies are still frequently committed just by suggesting the presence of a gun.)

And this means at least two other things: a) there will be some bad guys who are undeterred (suicidal, insane, ruthless, drugged) and b) if guns are fired, pretty much every situation quickly degrades into a ####show. So conversations about gunfight tactics and comparative stopping power and mild-mannered gun-toters to the rescue are largely fantasies.

That doesn't mean that the good-guy-with-gun doesn't sometimes prevail just like in the movies, but sometimes s/he doesn't. A kind of incident that you read about in Texas from time to time is an armed rescuer facing down a gunman and getting shot dead for his troubles: not inevitable either, but just going to show that once guns are drawn, all bets are off.
   1885. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5630170)
Now the North Hollywood shootout is a bit different but the police were vastly outgunned by semi and full automatic guns. The police resorted to taking AR-15s out of a gun store to combat the two criminals and SWAT used an armored car to get to the various injured people. Hell, the police announced it over the radio to not engage the getaway car because at the time they had nothing to combat the criminal's arsenal nor could they penetrate his armor with their 9mm and .38s.
   1886. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5630171)
I’m reading this in my pajamas and I feel attacked.


Only fancy lads (& lasses) wear pajamas.
   1887. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5630172)
Howie had a JetBlue issue the other day. This morning, still on Chrome, an Avis advert has forced me to reload the page several times.


Weird. No problems for me on Chrome.
   1888. BDC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5630173)
Only fancy lads (& lasses) wear pajamas

I wear an extra-large Shin-Soo Choo T-Shirt. And try saying that six times fast.
   1889. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5630177)
So you think cops are carrying desert eagles?
Do you think they're chambering .22s?
   1890. McCoy Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5630179)
So what's your point? You linked to a Twitter post about the Virginia shooter that turned out to be a false and stupid point. So what are you doing now? Doubling down?
   1891. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5630181)
Only fancy lads (& lasses) wear pajamas.


Pajama Boy wears the kind with footies.
   1892. Stormy JE Posted: February 25, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5630182)
So what's your point? You linked to a Twitter post about the Virginia shooter that turned out to be a false and stupid point. So what are you doing now? Doubling down?
LOL. You were the one who instigated all this mishigas by claiming a security guard making $15 per hour had no obligation to come to the aid of students under fire from a classmate. When called out on your nonsense, you doubled down by claiming with a straight face that no trained police officer making $55,000 per year had such an obligation.

My mention of the Alexandria incident was to highlight once more that on a baseball diamond, let alone inside a classroom, police officers carrying handguns still have reason to confront a single shooter possessing an AR-15.
   1893. Count Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5630188)
What was hackish about the Schiff memo? And DN why are you blaming partisan bickering when the GOP lines of attack have repeatedly fallen apart and there are only any memos in the first place because of the GOP?


Count, straight talk: If someone can't see that BOTH memos are the work of partisan hacks, that person is in one bubble or the other, but in either case is not dealing with reality.


I'm asking you to identify what you think is hackish about the Schiff memo, and you aren't doing it, and nobody else here has either. Obviously both sides are advancing an agenda, but that doesn't mean you can't figure out which one is accurate and which one is nonsense. In this case Nunes threw up a bunch of BS and the House Dems issued a response and we're getting "both sides" as if they are equivalent.
   1894. Count Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5630189)
I got shat on the other day for warning teenagers who wanted to take part in protests that it's not all fun and games.

Josh Jordan possesses a not too dissimilar thought:
Can someone explain to me why we should lower the voting age to 16 because teenagers are so incredibly strong and bright, yet we're also not allowed to question anything they say because they're too fragile to handle fact checking and legitimate debate?


You're certainly allowed to question things they say. I haven't seen much of that; instead it's been a lot of people in conservative media getting the vapors because teens are protesting and being mean to Marco Rubio on twitter.
   1895. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5630191)
I'm asking you to identify what you think is hackish about the Schiff memo, and you aren't doing it, and nobody else here has either. Obviously both sides are advancing an agenda, but that doesn't mean you can't figure out which one is accurate and which one is nonsense. In this case Nunes threw up a bunch of BS and the House Dems issued a response and we're getting "both sides" as if they are equivalent.

It's a case of one side (the GOP) trying to game the refs (the Mueller investigation) via the Nunes memo, while at the same time getting to interject "refs" of their own who heavily redact the Schiff rebuttal while letting their own memo sail through 100% intact. So naturally Rayson and Trump find nothing at all fishy about the process. Naturally.
   1896. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5630192)
Watching Sheriff Israel on Jake Tapper right now. The guy is a complete joke. Absolutely pathetic.
   1897. Count Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5630194)
I don't think the redactions particularly hurt the Schiff memo (and sometimes redactions make it seem as if there's more evidence than really is there). The unredacted portions of Schiff memo completely undermine the main argument of the Nunes memo, which was that the FBI misled the court by not revealing that the dossier was politically motivated. We knew that was wrong from reporting a couple of weeks ago, and the Republicans who don't care about Russian interference and want to protect the president resorted to arguing that what was in the application wasn't enough because the DNC and Clinton weren't specifically identified, which didn't make any sense. But the Schiff memo quotes the actual language used.

The other argument in the Nunes memo (not including the nonsense about Ohr and the texts), was that the dossier formed a substantial basis of the application. The Schiff memo disputes that and there are a lot of redactions in this portion. I'm not sure how you get around the redactions, though, since there's an ongoing investigation and if we had other sources regarding Page's activities we wouldn't want to reveal them. But this is less relevant anyway - if the FBI didn't mislead the court, and it's clear that they didn't, then you're left with a pretty tenuous argument that even though Page was already under suspicion it was wrong to apply for surveillance using the dossier even if you told the court that the dossier was likely sponsored by someone who wanted to undermine Trump's campaign.
   1898. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5630195)
What a maroon. edit...Sheriff Israel.
   1899. Count Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5630196)
For those interested here is the House GOP response to the Schiff response. You can tell it's good because it keeps referring to the "Democrat memo" instead of the Democratic memo or Democrats' memo because the entire GOP is 13 years old.
   1900. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5630197)
Not only does he take absolutely no responsibility for the numerous missteps taken by his department, he's pariaisng himself for his amazin leadership.
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