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Monday, November 05, 2018

OTP 2018 2018 Nov 5 - The Trump dilemma hits the Boston Red Sox amid a wave of White House boycotts in sports

The Boston Red Sox, fresh off their historic World Series win, are the latest team to be faced with the Trump dilemma.

The team’s manager Alex Cora said that the Sox haven’t decided whether they will visit the White House if they’re invited by Trump, adding that he wants to use the team’s platform in the right way, according to the Associated Press.

 

“For me, I just don’t think it’s the right thing to do.” Connolly said in August, according to Sports Illustrated. “Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think there’ll be a few guys not going, too. Like I said, it has nothing to do with politics, it’s about what’s right and wrong, and we’ll leave it at that.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 05, 2018 at 08:40 AM | 2346 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, world series

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   2301. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5786326)
Laughably, Rosenstein told Congress that Mueller should review whether Rosenstein should recuse himself, which is simply not the way this works. It's Rosenstein's responsibility to make this decision for himself.
Rosenstein needs to recuse himself if he is a subject of the investigation. Mueller knows whether Rosenstein is a subject of the investigation.

Rosenstein is not only a witness to an obstruction inquiry, he's a key witness, and may well be a subject. You are simply snowing people here by saying otherwise -- or maybe you actually don't understand the legal issues at play here. Either way you're wrong.
I guess I share my inability to understand with Rosenstein and Mueller.
   2302. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5786327)
Trump is on the record saying his negotiations saved "millions of lives" and "prevented WWIII" -- luolz. Why would you be in "wait and see mode"? It's over, Trump got completely played and now the US has zero leverage. Don't even get me started on how the US lost leverage with China as well. It was a huge mistake sold as one of the greatest negotiations ever.
Trump Downplays World War I, Says His World War Will Be 'Even Better'.
   2303. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5786330)

Well, here's one move by one of his appointees that I genuinely loved and endorsed:

FDA takes new steps to address epidemic of youth e-cigarette use, including a historic action against more than 1,300 retailers and 5 major manufacturers for their roles perpetuating youth access
Of course you do. It's a terrible policy that hurts people and infringes on freedom, so Andy's in favor of it.
   2304. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5786333)

Perhaps all the staunch Trump critics here could list the things they think Trump did well or agree with him on,
I think his judicial nominations are generally good.

Other than that, um, I mean, uh, well... he hasn't nuked Belgium.
   2305. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5786334)
I guess I share my inability to understand with Rosenstein and Mueller.


You said Rosenstein didn't witness anything. That is false.

You also showed a complete inability to understand that Rosenstein is a witness particularly given that Trump gave several reasons for why he fired Comey (not just the one you alluded to which in itself is muddled) and Trump's termination letter to Comey specifically stated that Rosenstein (and Sessions) recommended Comey's dismissal.

You also show no ability to understand that Rosenstein may be a subject.

Or that the obligation to recuse oneself rests with oneself, not with others. You can seek opinions from others, certainly, but the obligation is your own. That directly flies in the face of Rosenstein telling Congress that it was up to Mueller.
   2306. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5786335)
BTW, I'm done answering any of Ray's questions. He doesn't ask them in good faith, and he doesn't respond to the answers. He apparently asks them to get people to chase their tails, maybe gather intel for future gotcha barbs, and I won't play anymore. I highly recommend everyone follow suit.

While I won't go as far as echoing Bivens's canned response to him, I am highly sympathetic to them.
   2307. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5786336)
Allow me to translate.

Trump trumping trump TRUMP! TRUMP. Trump your trumping Trump, Trumply Trump Trump Trumpy Trumped. Trump?

Great. Now I have Nellie the Elephant stuck in my head. Thanks for that.
   2308. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5786337)
I mean, it’s not like I’m a fan of them but Crooked Hillary was pretty effective branding. You left out Little Marco which worked very well. And Lyin’ Ted was strong because it was so apt.
The crooked and lying nicknames worked best because they inoculated him from comebacks. If you are crooked, calling your opponent crooked means they can't call you the same thing without sounding like a kid on the playground - I know you are but what am I. If you are going to tell lie after lie, brand your opponent a liar so the choice becomes "who's the more entertaining/likable liar" rather than "choose the guy who tells the truth".
   2309. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:59 PM (#5786339)
BTW, I'm done answering any of Ray's questions. He doesn't ask them in good faith, and he doesn't respond to the answers.


? I'm not sure what I was supposed to respond to. I asked what people saw good about Trump and I (mostly) got good answers in return. The reason for the exercise was to see the responses, not to call people names once they gave them.
   2310. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5786340)
Of course you do. It's a terrible policy that hurts people and infringes on freedom, so Andy's in favor of it.


eh, it tries to limit the damage of a really bad trend for teens. I don't have a problem regulating the sales to minors. some of the other stuff -- strongly worded letters! Meh. In general, with narcotics of any sorts, let adults do what they want but make sure sales aren't going to minors.

more broadly, it is a good example of how the Trump admin picks and chooses what sectors of commerce it wants to pursue as pro-biz, anti regulation friendly.
   2311. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5786341)
I'm not sure what I was supposed to respond to.


Maybe do what humans do? Acknowledge the responses, possibly comment on them, comment on where we go from there... You do that all the time. Ask questions, demand homework, and never comment on the subject again.

Are those of us who responded honestly and in good faith now qualified to criticize Trump when he does something which, in our opinion, is wrong or misguided, or will you demand further tasks that you won't respond to?
   2312. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5786342)
And I'll add: I did appreciate the responses, which is why I didn't snark back. It made me understand that people are a little less unhinged about Trump than I'd previously thought.

But only a little :-)

I don't know what more you wanted.
   2313. Srul Itza Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:07 PM (#5786343)
I am not surprised that David is in favor of selling drugs to minors. Free enterprise and all that.

I am just surprised he would admit it.
   2314. Zonk is One Individual Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5786346)
The bigger news in AZ may be that democratic Secretary of State candidate Katie Hobbs has also moved into a thin lead.
   2315. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5786347)
And I'll add: I did appreciate the responses,


Then say that. You ask people to do stuff, they do, and you ignore it.
   2316. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:15 PM (#5786348)

McSally concedes. Sinema up by 40,000 with 92% reporting
I guess all the Trumpistas got what they wanted wrt Flake. No more "RINO" in that seat.
   2317. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5786350)
I guess all the Trumpistas got what they wanted wrt Flake. No more "RINO" in that seat.


GOPe? RIP.
   2318. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5786353)
I guess all the Trumpistas got what they wanted wrt Flake. No more "RINO" in that seat.


I believe Flake would have won easily in the general. But Trumpistas won't learn. They'll point to the unprecedented wins of Republicans in ND, IN, and MO while ignoring Democrat wins in UT, OK, SC, KS, upstate NY, Orange County, etc...and say "Hey, it's working."
   2319. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5786354)

You said Rosenstein didn't witness anything. That is false.

You also showed a complete inability to understand that Rosenstein is a witness particularly given that Trump gave several reasons for why he fired Comey (not just the one you alluded to which in itself is muddled) and Trump's termination letter to Comey specifically stated that Rosenstein (and Sessions) recommended Comey's dismissal.

You also show no ability to understand that Rosenstein may be a subject.

Or that the obligation to recuse oneself rests with oneself, not with others. You can seek opinions from others, certainly, but the obligation is your own. That directly flies in the face of Rosenstein telling Congress that it was up to Mueller.
Blah blah blah. Still not right, but at least you're consistent.
   2320. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:39 PM (#5786356)
Ray is tryingto be snarky, claiming that the hypocritical libs are doing the thing (refusing to concede) that they said Trump would do.

He’s just being a jackass and an idiot for fun.
   2321. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5786358)
Well, here's one move by one of his appointees that I genuinely loved and endorsed:

FDA takes new steps to address epidemic of youth e-cigarette use, including a historic action against more than 1,300 retailers and 5 major manufacturers for their roles perpetuating youth access


Of course you do. It's a terrible policy that hurts people and infringes on freedom, so Andy's in favor of it.


I only wish I'd had the foresight to make an anonymous bet that you'd respond in exactly that manner, because it was as predictable as a Trump tweet. Just don't ever change.
   2322. Zonk is One Individual Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5786359)

You said Rosenstein didn't witness anything. That is false.

You also showed a complete inability to understand that Rosenstein is a witness particularly given that Trump gave several reasons for why he fired Comey (not just the one you alluded to which in itself is muddled) and Trump's termination letter to Comey specifically stated that Rosenstein (and Sessions) recommended Comey's dismissal.

You also show no ability to understand that Rosenstein may be a subject.

Or that the obligation to recuse oneself rests with oneself, not with others. You can seek opinions from others, certainly, but the obligation is your own. That directly flies in the face of Rosenstein telling Congress that it was up to Mueller.

Blah blah blah. Still not right, but at least you're consistent.


Here is what honestly puzzles me. As in, no snark - but honestly.

So Rosenstein should recuse himself... what of it? Tell me how this isn't all just an exercise to get a Trump-friendly muckity-muck in the DOJ to rid Trump of this troublesome priest...

I mean, is that not the endgame? And if it's not.... tell me why I should care about Rosenstein? Beyond ensuring that Mueller finishes, indicts the remaining people worthy of indictment - sounds like a couple more in the next week or so, finishes his report, and that report is made public... why do I care what happens to a Trump appointee who, at minimum, appears to be a DOJ careerist?
   2323. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5786360)
Ray is tryingto be snarky, claiming that the hypocritical libs are doing the thing (refusing to concede) that they said Trump would do.


Right, but specifically who should be conceding? Sinema who was behind on Election Day, but just won? Nelson and Gillum who's races are now in a state law mandated re-count? Republican incumbents Dana Rohbacher and Mia Love who's races haven't been called but are almost certainly going to lose? The ME-2 Democrat who is behind by fewer than 700 votes with the race going to ranked choice? Mike Espy facing a run off? Who is the supposed hero here?
   2324. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5786361)
I believe Flake would have won easily in the general. But Trumpistas won't learn. They'll point to the unprecedented wins of Republicans in ND, IN, and MO while ignoring Democrat wins in UT, OK, SC, KS, upstate NY, Orange County, etc...and say "Hey, it's working."

At the rate they're going, outside of New England and the Mid-Atlantic, the strongest correlation in another decade or so is likely to be Republican wins and states with aging white populations and few electoral votes.
   2325. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5786374)
Who is the supposed hero here?

Duh...Ray.
   2326. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5786377)
Well, could you survive a 1000 mile walk through Mexico, with nothing but a tennis racket to ward off mosquitoes and an entire gang of Alfonso Bedoyas?
   2327. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5786379)
In addition to tomorrow's hearing on a Circuit Court & 4 District Court nominees, noted in #2210, the Senate Judiciary Committee will also hold an Executive Business Meeting on Thursday to vote on these nominees:
Bridget S. Bade, to be United States Circuit Judge for the Ninth Circuit

Eric D. Miller, to be United States Circuit Judge for the Ninth Circuit

Eric E. Murphy, to be United States Circuit Judge for the Sixth Circuit

Chad A. Readler, to be United States Circuit Judge for the Sixth Circuit

Allison Jones Rushing, to be United States Circuit Judge for the Fourth Circuit

Rossie David Alston, Jr., to be United States District Judge for the Eastern District of Virginia

Thomas P. Barber, to be United States District Judge for the Middle District of Florida

Pamela A. Barker, to be United States District Judge for the Northern District of Ohio

Wendy Williams Berger, to be United States District Judge for the Middle District of Florida

Karin J. Immergut, to be United States District Judge for the District of Oregon

Corey Landon Maze, to be United States District Judge for the Northern District of Alabama

Sarah Daggett Morrison, to be United States District Judge for the Southern District of Ohio

Rodney Smith, to be United States District Judge for the Southern District of Florida

T. Kent Wetherell II, to be United States District Judge for the Northern District of Florida

Richard A. Hertling, to be a Judge of the United States Court of Federal Claims

Kim Gaffney, to be United States Marshal for the Western District of Wisconsin

Bradley Jay LaRose, to be United States Marshal for the District of Vermont

Douglas J. Strike, to be United States Marshal for the Northern District of Iowa

Democrats will likely exercise their option under the Committee Rules to delay the vote for one week on most, if not all, nominees, but the Circuit Court nominees will probably all be confirmed during the current session, although it's possible some District Court nominees may have to wait to the new Senate takes office.
   2328. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5786381)
@kfile:
Caravan mentions on Fox News in the week leading to the election: 494
The week since: 94

Here's across all TV:

Caravan mentions
11/1 -11/6: 40,057
11/7-11/12: 11,176

So yes, a substantial drop off.


@JesseLehrich:
classy.

defeated Rep. Jason Lewis wrote an op-ed on #VeteransDay blaming recently deceased war hero John McCain for losing the House.
   2329. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5786383)
Blah blah blah. Still not right, but at least you're consistent.


Concession accepted.

But keep going. You're very likely fooling the rubes -- presuming you aren't one, which I'm starting to doubt.

Perhaps Srul will find it within himself to weigh in here. He thinks I'm vile, but I've never known him to be intellectually dishonest, so I have no doubt we'd get his honest opinion.

   2330. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5786384)
Ray is tryingto be snarky, claiming that the hypocritical libs are doing the thing (refusing to concede) that they said Trump would do.


Sam got one right.

When Democrats fail to concede it's patriotic. When Republicans do it they're authoritarian racist sexists who are trying to suppress the vote.

   2331. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5786385)
Re: Ray's totally sensible and honest comments in this thread--

The best part is, this is how Ray posts after he gets the election outcome he was "hoping for." Just imagine if Mr. Unaffiliated had an axe to grind.
   2332. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5786387)
Sam got one right.

When Democrats fail to concede it's patriotic. When Republicans do it they're racist sexists who are trying to suppress the vote.


For the love of God. Stop pussyfooting around and name some names. Who hasn't conceded who you think should, and who is lauding that unknown person?
   2333. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM (#5786389)
Here is what honestly puzzles me. As in, no snark - but honestly.

So Rosenstein should recuse himself... what of it? Tell me how this isn't all just an exercise to get a Trump-friendly muckity-muck in the DOJ to rid Trump of this troublesome priest...

I mean, is that not the endgame? And if it's not.... tell me why I should care about Rosenstein? Beyond ensuring that Mueller finishes, indicts the remaining people worthy of indictment - sounds like a couple more in the next week or so, finishes his report, and that report is made public... why do I care what happens to a Trump appointee who, at minimum, appears to be a DOJ careerist?


The "what of it" is that it's an ethical obligation. The reason it's an ethical obligation is because it leads to complex situations and a lack of trust in outcomes. In this case any obstruction case against Trump would focus on what Trump's true motivations for firing Comey were. There is no doubt that Rosenstein is a witness to those motivations and Rosenstein may be a subject because he may well have been involved in the decisionmaking process. So we have a situation where Rosenstein is overseeing an investigation of which he is a critical witness and - as he has admitted - a potential subject. That not only complicates any input of Rosenstein into whether to try Trump but it also complicates any trial of Trump. It also means that Rosenstein will edit/release a report from Mueller that will focus in large part on his own conduct and judgment. Rosenstein also may be unable to make unbiased decisions because he was reportedly -- in one telling -- outraged that the White House had tried to claim that Rosenstein's memo was the basis for Comey's termination when Rosenstein maintained that it was not. Rosenstein is conflicted, which is one reason why recusals are necessary. These are clear issues of fact that David is claiming don't exist - because David is bizarrely claiming that Trump's one admission against interest ends the matter and seals Trump's guilt - and Rosenstein is deeply entangled in them.

David says that investigators are witnesses all the time. Yes. But that does not remotely capture the situation here because Rosenstein was intimately involved in the process that led to Comey's firing -- and Trump may well claim that Rosenstein was more involved in the decision than Rosenstein will claim. Rosenstein was not merely an outside observer of events.

That's why I say that the fact that Rosenstein hasn't recused himself suggests to me that Mueller has told Rosenstein that Mueller is not going to charge Trump with obstruction for firing Comey. Which would be the sensible decision at any rate.
   2334. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5786390)
Ray, you Goddamned coward. Name some names. Who should have conceded their election, and who has lauded this unknown person as a patriot? Name some names so we can discuss or STFU.
   2335. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:19 AM (#5786392)
"See you tonight."
   2336. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:30 AM (#5786393)
Ray's unusually shitty and disjointed run of posts on this thread tells you all you need to know about the movement in Donald Trump's legal and political standing.
   2337. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM (#5786396)
Ray is tryingto be snarky, claiming that the hypocritical libs are doing the thing (refusing to concede) that they said Trump would do.

It's funny. Master evaluator of evidence and champion of logical reasoning that he is, he completely manages to mess up the basic fundamentals underlying each case.

The lefties worried about whether Trump would concede, were obviously talking about a hypothetical situation, in which the election is no longer in doubt.

Nobody thought Trump should concede the second the polls closed. Or if he was ahead. Or if he was down 100 votes in Florida. The point about conceding was in a hypothetical, in which the election had been conclusively decided.

If say McCaskill was refusing to concede, by all means, I would think criticism was warranted. But this is just another case of Ray seeing an apple and a carrot and going "aha, exactly the same!"
   2338. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:56 AM (#5786397)
Scientific BBTF Poll:

Does Hillary run again in 2020?

Yes/No

I say yes.
   2339. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:02 AM (#5786398)
Business Insider, 10/19/2016:

Clinton called Trump's baseless assertion that the election may be rigged "horrifying," saying that over the course of American history "we've accepted outcomes even when we didn't like them."

"Every time Donald thinks things are not going his way, he thinks whatever it is is rigged against him," Clinton said.


I haven't followed over the past two hours. Has Hillary stopped giving excuses for why she lost yet?
   2340. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:06 AM (#5786399)
NY Times, 10/20/2016:

Every losing presidential candidate in modern times has accepted the will of the voters, even in extraordinarily close races, such as when John F. Kennedy narrowly defeated Richard M. Nixon in 1960 and George W. Bush beat Al Gore in Florida to win the presidency in 2000.


Sort of an odd comment to make about Gore, who tried for a month to steal the election through the courts.
   2341. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:20 AM (#5786401)
Scientific BBTF poll:

Does anyone besides Clapper and Ray give two shits about HRC?

I say no.
   2342. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2018 at 02:01 AM (#5786404)
Does Hillary running through the nightly dreams of "some folks here" count?

If so, then definitely yes.
   2343. Proo Posted: November 13, 2018 at 02:30 AM (#5786407)
Does anyone besides Clapper and Ray give two shits about HRC?


You mean in the sense of being very, very tired of people talking about her as though she's still relevant and wish they would stop? I might admit to that, yeah.
   2344. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 03:07 AM (#5786408)
David says that investigators are witnesses all the time. Yes. But that does not remotely capture the situation here because Rosenstein was intimately involved in the process that led to Comey's firing -- and Trump may well claim that Rosenstein was more involved in the decision than Rosenstein will claim. Rosenstein was not merely an outside observer of events.
Once more: Trump already told us why he fired Comey.¹ The same way he told us why he skipped the ceremony in France. Stop trolling.


¹Hint: Rosenstein not involved. "Intimately" or otherwise.

EDIT:
It also means that Rosenstein will edit/release a report from Mueller that will focus in large part on his own conduct and judgment.
There is no evidence that the report will have anything at all to do with Rosenstein's conduct or judgment, let alone that it will "focus in large part" on that.

EDIT 2: EXCLUSIVE: Rosenstein consulted with ethics adviser at DOJ on Russia probe:
But CNN has now learned that Rosenstein has consulted with the ethics adviser over the course of the investigation on whether he needs to recuse himself, and he has followed that individual's advice
   2345. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 03:31 AM (#5786409)

The "Rosenstein should have recused himself" line of attack, like the original Trumpista attacks on Comey, is breathtakingly cynical. it goes to the whole lying/bullshit dichotomy I've talked about before. The goal here isn't to argue that there is bias against Trump; that would involve a claim that is either true or false that could be debated and assessed. The goal here is just to say stuff. The Trumpista claim against Comey was that he needed to be fired because he was too anti-Hillary in the way he conducted the emails investigation. But of course Trumpistas don't even pretend to believe that; they wanted her locked up before the investigation began. They just wanted people to think there was something wrong with Comey. The claim that Rosenstein needs to recuse himself is that he is a "witness" that could exonerate Trump. But if he could, then by definition he's not a subject of the investigation. They don't want Rosenstein to recuse himself to protect the investigation (an investigation that they've declared illegitimate from before it began until the present); they don't want Rosenstein to recuse himself at all. Rather, they want Rosenstein to not recuse himself so that they can keep claiming that Rosenstein should have recused himself so that people who aren't paying attention will say, "Hmm, there must be something wrong with the investigation."
   2346. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 03:38 AM (#5786410)

It's funny. Master evaluator of evidence and champion of logical reasoning that he is, he completely manages to mess up the basic fundamentals underlying each case.

The lefties worried about whether Trump would concede, were obviously talking about a hypothetical situation, in which the election is no longer in doubt.

Nobody thought Trump should concede the second the polls closed. Or if he was ahead. Or if he was down 100 votes in Florida. The point about conceding was in a hypothetical, in which the election had been conclusively decided.
Bingo. Ray knows this, the same way that he knows that there aren't two different meanings of the word "know" that would allow Trump to be truthful in claiming that he knows and doesn't know Whitaker. The issue wasn't whether Trump would request a recount if the results were close. That is not refusing to accept the outcome of the election, but rather waiting to see what the outcome of the election is. The issue was Trump and his court jesters like Stone announcing in advance of the election that any outcome other than Trump winning was illegitimate.


I thought Gore's actions in 2000 were illegitimate and pathetic, but when the process was finally over after Bush v. Gore was handed down, Gore did in fact accept it. Not graciously — though I doubt many would be gracious in that situation — but he didn't claim that the whole process was a fraud and that he was the real president and that liberals should take to the streets to stop Bush from taking office.
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