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Monday, April 16, 2018

OTP 2018 Apr 16: Beto strikes out but is a hit at baseball fundraiser

“I guarantee you he didn’t just get three pitches and three strikes like his old man,” said O’Rourke.

He can afford a laugh, since he has dusted Cruz in fundraising by taking in an eye-popping $6.7 million in the first three months of this year. That’s more than twice the $3.2 million gathered by Cruz, whose tally counted money from multiple campaign entities including a political action committee.

O’Rourke won’t take PAC money, a stand that’s expected to put him at a fundraising disadvantage as the general election nears. He said Saturday that he and his supporters are “doing this 100 percent the right way. There are no political action committees, no corporations.

 

“It’s just the people, the people of Texas, and you all look awesome,” O’Rourke told supporters who filled The Long Time grounds with a laid-back vibe as they sipped beer, wine, lemonade or water, sitting on blankets, a small stand of bleachers and scattered chairs; children and amiable dogs milling around.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 16, 2018 at 08:18 AM | 1328 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics, strikeouts, texas

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   901. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5657012)
Flip
   902. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 20, 2018 at 10:47 AM (#5657015)
The President of the United States of America:
So General Michael Flynn’s life can be totally destroyed while Shadey James Comey can Leak and Lie and make lots of money from a third rate book (that should never have been written). Is that really the way life in America is supposed to work? I don’t think so!
   903. Omineca Greg Posted: April 20, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5657018)
Flip

You flipped after my post!

That's worse than being thrown into a Czech jail with a drunk gypsy on trumped up drug charges. Pay attention, the gypsy isn't there on drug charges, he's there because he's a)drunk and b) a gypsy.
   904. perros Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5657022)
1) Derrida says that there is no pure gift; you always expect something in return.

I really hate this kind of nihilistic phenomenology horseshit.


BDC left out the title of Derrida's book on the subject --

The Gift of Death.

Regardless, I will read it and save you the grief.
   905. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5657024)
So General Michael Flynn’s life can be totally destroyed while Shadey James Comey can Leak and Lie and make lots of money from a third rate book (that should never have been written). Is that really the way life in America is supposed to work? I don’t think so!
Let's fast forward to October and determine who will be more up the creek from a legal standpoint: Flynn or Comey.
   906. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5657025)
I went to a talk a few weeks ago given by the author of a new book on Derrida. He had some fun stories on the petty battles within the French intelligentsia over Derrida and religion. Boycotts and protests over obscure academic conferences and so on.
   907. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5657028)
I suppose Flynn is just glad he got promoted (re-promoted? Returned to grace?) from "traitor" and "Obama flunkie" back to martyr.

Let's see... do I have the path right?

Best People to Liar to Good Guy to Martyr to Traitor to Obama guy back to martyr.

Did I miss any steps?
   908. perros Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5657030)
Derrida has, naturally, rigged the game with his own idiosyncratic definition of a gift. Myself, I've always liked that "Gift" is the German word for "poison." That's symbolism enough for me.


Those idealistic Germans.

This was a high school debate in English class between Randians and Christians. Later, I figured out the giver may get good feelings, but the receiver at least gets something as well.

But just looking at my own experience from first memories until now, Derrida and the Germans capture the terribleness of most gifts, how you're expected to give gifts out of obligation, be thankful for gifts that are useless to you, and when actually giving something from the heart and with the best intentions, it's received as something akin to a pet rock.

Yeah, I hate Christmas.
   909. BDC Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5657031)
BDC will probably be able to fill this in better than I will, but I think it’s probably helpful to think about Derrida as trying to bring out contradictions or paradoxes in particular concepts.

I cannot explain it nearly as well as you did, but yes, the speaker yesterday put it in similar terms: the social framework of gifts is a network where people give something back eventually, in some form.

My pal just told me that she's going to buy me a ticket for Sunday's baseball game. I started to protest and she said "You can buy me a beer!" This is why I like going to games with her, she's pretty straightforward.

Myself, I've always liked that "Gift" is the German word for "poison." That's symbolism enough for me.

I believe that that's not an accident: the two words share an etymological root. So English "gift" and German "Gift" are both little surprises that you didn't expect :)
   910. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5657032)
I suppose Flynn is just glad he got promoted (re-promoted? Returned to grace?) from "traitor" and "Obama flunkie" back to martyr.

Let's see... do I have the path right?

Best People to Liar to Good Guy to Martyr to Traitor to Obama guy back to martyr.

Did I miss any steps?


Let's fast forward to October Never and see what JE has to say about Flynn's character, after he's through parroting the Trump line about Comey.
   911. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5657034)
Mitch is mad at Bob Corker for saying nice things about Phil Bredesen

I hear rumors Paul Ryan loves ironstache....
   912. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5657035)
Let's fast forward to October Never and see what JE has to say about Flynn's character, after he's through parroting the Trump line about Comey.
Got any thoughts to share about McCabe *now*, fellas? Has Shredder been given some smelling salts?

Actually, I have little interest in seeing the learned OTP commentary typed over the past few weeks but will be intrigued to learn what the usual suspects here say about Comey, Clapper (the other one), Brennan, Lynch, and/or Yates when a grand jury decides whether to prosecute them.

And last I checked, Andy, Flynn wasn't prosecuted for possessing a lack of character.
   913. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5657036)
Much as I can sympathize with the plaintiffs, this is a seriously stupid lawsuit:

Democratic Party files lawsuit alleging Russia, the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks conspired to disrupt the 2016 campaign
The Democratic National Committee filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit Friday against the Russian government, the Trump campaign and the WikiLeaks organization alleging a far-reaching conspiracy to disrupt the 2016 campaign and tilt the election to Donald Trump.

The complaint, filed in federal district court in Manhattan, alleges that top Trump campaign officials conspired with the Russian government and its military spy agency to hurt Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton and help Trump by hacking the computer networks of the Democratic Party and disseminating stolen material found there.

“During the 2016 presidential campaign, Russia launched an all-out assault on our democracy, and it found a willing and active partner in Donald Trump’s campaign,” DNC Chairman Tom Perez said in a statement.

“This constituted an act of unprecedented treachery: the campaign of a nominee for President of the United States in league with a hostile foreign power to bolster its own chance to win the presidency,” he said.

The case asserts that the Russian hacking campaign — combined with Trump associates’ contacts with Russia and the campaign’s public cheerleading of the hacks — amounted to an illegal conspiracy to interfere in the election that caused serious damage to the Democratic Party....

Even if everything the suit alleges turns out to be true, you'd think the DNC would have the sense to wait until all the facts are out before filing it. It's not as if the facts are going anywhere in the meantime.
   914. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5657037)
Now that we've seen the Comey memos, it's clear that he kept copious notes of everything that transpired, starting early on. There's nothing about the Trump "statement" about Flynn that stood out in real time; it's simply another entry in the same key as all the other entries. From the way it was sounding, in part because of what Comey said and the reporting around it, Comey started keeping notes because Trump was saying "worrying" things, but that isn't remotely true. He started very early on and in the first couple conversations -- if not even more -- Comey says Trump was complimentary of his work.

The "obstruction" thing was just completely oversold.
   915. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5657039)
Let's fast forward to October Never and see what JE has to say about Flynn's character, after he's through parroting the Trump line about Comey.

[JE: Pleads 5th amendment as usual, on the grounds that an honest answer may incriminate one of his clients.]


   916. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5657040)
Actually, I have little interest in seeing the learned OTP commentary typed over the past few weeks but will be interested to learn what the usual suspects here will say about Comey, Clapper (the other one), Brennan, Lynch, and/or Yates when a grand jury decides whether to prosecute them....


You forgot Hillary.

The GOP luminaries like Ted Yoho, Matt Gaetz, Claudia Tenney, etc, etc will be very disappointed.

But then, I'm sure its chaotic times.... what with figuring out who gets Paulie Nonnuts prime spot on Trump's lap.
   917. Traderdave Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5657041)
The "obstruction" thing was just completely oversold.


Trump is on record publicly stating that he fired Comey to turn off the heat of the Russia investigation.

Pretend Bill Clinton fired Whitewater investigators and then said THE NEXT DAY that he did it to squelch the investigation. Would that be obstruction in your weird little world?
   918. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5657043)
Although, I hear you never want to go the Full Yoho...
   919. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5657044)
And last I checked, Andy, Flynn wasn't prosecuted for possessing a lack of character.

No, he merely admitted he lied to the FBI. His lack of character was established long before that.
   920. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5657047)
And last I checked, Andy, Flynn wasn't prosecuted for possessing a lack of character.


If that's a crime, then I guess yesterday's "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" discussion and debate on impeachment predicates is moot and we can start tomorrow.
   921. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5657049)
Trump is on record publicly stating that he fired Comey to turn off the heat of the Russia investigation.
By "heat," do you mean the Clapper-Comey tag-team set-up that Grassley discovered months ago and basically got confirmed last night?
   922. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5657050)
Wow, Jason's really gone off the deep end.
   923. DavidFoss Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5657052)
No, he merely admitted he lied to the FBI.

That's what the guilty plea was for.

The implication at the time of the guilty plea was that Flynn would be cooperating with the investigation -- that he had been 'flipped'. Is that not true anymore? Since then, he has made an appearance at a MAGA-friendly event and Trump is tweeting nice things about him again. No more flip? Or just that the cooperation is over?
   924. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5657053)
Wow, Jason's really gone off the deep end.


In for a prostitute, in for the pee!
   925. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5657054)
Wow, Jason's really gone off the deep end.


I don't know why people continue to play only road games at JE. He disappears for days, weeks at a time, and then pops up, admits he has no interest in recent conversations, and demands answers to his questions. And people play along. He's more disingenuous in his interactions here than Sugar Bear.
   926. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5657055)
Wow, Jason's really gone off the deep end.
Yeah, I've really gone off the deep end by warning you geniuses months ago about Michael Horowitz's investigation and that McCabe was going down. I'm also the one who said Sessions and Rosenstein were quietly and methodically doing their jobs and not about to get fired.

CRAZY.
   927. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5657057)
Trump is on record publicly stating that he fired Comey to turn off the heat of the Russia investigation.


It doesn't become any more true on the 456,871st repetition.

Here's a hint. Well two hints, actually:

1. Noting the result of an act does not mean that the act was undertaken because of the result or for the purpose of causing the result.
2. When you give a bunch of reasons for an act, it means that there was no single reason for the act.

   928. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5657058)
I don't know why people continue to play only road games at JE. He disappears for days, weeks at a time, and then pops up demanding answers to his questions.
"Demanding?" LOL. You funny guy.
   929. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5657059)
Yeah, I've really gone off the deep end by warning you geniuses months ago about Michael Horowitz's investigation and that McCabe was going down. I'm also the one who said Sessions and Rosenstein were quietly and methodically doing their jobs and not about to get fired.


Saying that James Comey and Loretta Lynch are going to be prosecuted in front of a grand jury is insane.

It's a transparent desire to deflect from ongoing bad news for the Republican president.
   930. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5657060)
The implication at the time of the guilty plea was that Flynn would be cooperating with the investigation -- that he had been 'flipped'. Is that not true anymore?


It likely never was true, and was never "implied." It was instead "hoped and prayed for" by certain factions and elements.

People plead guilty to the only charges they're guilty of routinely in both civil and criminal law enforcement matters. Trials cost a ton of money, the sentence/sanction could be worse than the prosecutors are offering if you're convicted after a trial. Those factors induce clients to routinely throw in the towel.

Happens. All. The. Time.
   931. BDC Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5657063)
It doesn't become any more true on the 456,871st repetition

Trump told NBC's Lester Holt: "And in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won'."


The only reason Trump gets a pass on this – aside from people just being raptly fond of Donald Trump – is the by-now-familiar refrain that Trump never means what he says and thus should never be listened to.
   932. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5657065)
The only reason Trump gets a pass on this


... is that nowhere in there does he say he fired Comey because of Russia. And because the FBI director is a subordinate executive official. And because there were a bunch of reasons why Trump fired him, which both Trump and Rosenstein have noted. And because firing the FBI director doesn't end or really even impact the investigation.

Etc, etc.
   933. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5657067)
Saying that James Comey and Loretta Lynch are going to be prosecuted in front of a grand jury is insane.
At least some of the names I mentioned above will be indicted. Yes, that's my prediction. See you in six months.

And you're not contesting the other comments? Good. Concession accepted.
   934. Omineca Greg Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5657068)
   935. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5657070)
928. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5657058)

"Demanding?" LOL. You funny guy..



933. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5657067)

And you're not contesting the other comments? Good. Concession accepted.


You can't make this up.
   936. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5657071)
The implication at the time of the guilty plea was that Flynn would be cooperating with the investigation -- that he had been 'flipped'. Is that not true anymore?

It likely never was true, and was never "implied." It was instead "hoped and prayed for" by certain factions and elements.


Flynn statement following the guilty plea.

My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the Special Counsel's Office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country

Flynn plea filing.

Page 5....

8. Cooperation

Etc

Words words words... I guess they mean different things to some people?
   937. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5657073)
Agreements to cooperate are standard in pleas, both civilly and criminally. Means nothing. It certainly doesn't mean Flynn was guilty of crimes other than those he was charged with.

Moreover, if he was guilty of conspiring to do something, he never would have been let off without copping to the conspiracy charge. Moreover, if he was going to be a witness for anything important, Mueller never would have had him plead guilty to being a multiple liar.

Etc, etc
   938. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5657074)
I see.

So the filed plea agreement didn't say Cooperate... it said "cooperate". And Flynn's statement after his court appearance didn't really mean cooperate. It meant "cooperate".

And you're not an idiot. You're an "idiot".
   939. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5657076)
This was a high school debate in English class between Randians and Christians. Later, I figured out the giver may get good feelings, but the receiver at least gets something as well.

This kind of sounds like the Catholic attitude towards prayer (as I understand it).

You pray both to the dead, and for the dead. And they return the favour. But the community of prayer is more than just transactional, and produces its own good.

So I guess it's a bit of Adam Smith and a bit of Dante working together.
   940. BDC Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5657078)
nowhere in there does he say he fired Comey because of Russia

I guess that's technically true. He technically said "when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing." You win the Fervent Loyalist Charitable Parsing Medal for the year :-D
   941. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5657079)
Moreover, if he was going to be a witness for anything important, Mueller never would have had him plead guilty to being a multiple liar.


If only our justice system allowed delays in sentencing recommendations and once someone struck a plea, a prosecutor could install language into the plea deal that required the guilty party to provide continued cooperation and henceforth, be forthright or risk losing the generous plea deal and correspondingly lower band penalties.

Alas...

   942. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5657080)
So the filed plea agreement didn't say Cooperate... it said "cooperate". And Flynn's statement after his court appearance didn't really mean cooperate. It meant "cooperate".


It said he agreed to cooperate. Standard language in plea agreements. Not sure what the point is here beyond the same kind of keep hope alive wishcasting we've seen throughout.

   943. zenbitz Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5657081)
JE you GOPe are so funny. Liberals don't care about McCabe and Comey. They were just allies of convenience against out Cheetoh Overlord.

The congress that ordered the investigation (even if it does turn out - - unlikely as that may seem- to be a sham) was a Republican one.
   944. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5657082)
I guess that's technically true. He technically said "when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing." You win the Fervent Loyalist Charitable Parsing Medal for the year :-D


If the man cannot do standard sentence construction, then there must no semblance of obstruction!

CHEWBACCA!!!!!
   945. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5657083)
My pal just told me that she's going to buy me a ticket for Sunday's baseball game. I started to protest and she said "You can buy me a beer!" This is why I like going to games with her, she's pretty straightforward.

One of the guys I went to grad school with was a devout Muslim who had spent most of his life in Libya (and therefore a lot of Western culture was foreign to him).

One time we were going to a soccer game, and I said I'd get the tickets. He was adamant that I not do that, and was aghast that friends would be put in a position where they owed each other anything. Of course, he always went out of his way to show great hospitality and invited me over for these two-man feasts all the time. But I guess money was far enough removed from those situations.
   946. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5657087)
It said he agreed to cooperate. Standard language in plea agreements. Not sure what the point is here beyond the same kind of keep hope alive wishcasting we've seen throughout.


I think the point is that you said that which was true was not true.

This isn't difficult.
   947. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5657089)
   948. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5657091)
JE you GOPe are so funny. Liberals don't care about McCabe and Comey. They were just allies of convenience against out Cheetoh Overlord.


Yeah it is so very strange. Everyone here is OK if McCabe, Comey, Hillary, or whoever gets punished for having done something wrong. We really, truly, don't feel the need to defend the guilty. If they are guilty.

Heck, I even continue to defend GOP President Trump against being impeached, because as of today I don't think there is enough there. And if there is never enough there, then great. Ideally I don't want Trump to be guilty of impeachable offenses. That is bad for the country. But if he is guilty of such offenses then I will want him impeached and convicted. Facts matter.
   949. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5657092)

I don't know why people continue to play only road games at JE. He disappears for days, weeks at a time, and then pops up, admits he has no interest in recent conversations, and demands answers to his questions. And people play along. He's more disingenuous in his interactions here than Sugar Bear.

Well, at least multiple people here can confirm that he's not a Russian bot. And until he became afraid that the RNC was monitoring these threads, he even used to post under his real name.
   950. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5657093)
Well, at least multiple people here can confirm that he's not a Russian bot. And until he became afraid that the RNC was monitoring these threads, he even used to post under his real name.


Yeah the difference for me is I have met and like Jason. He has some ideas I disagree with (Foreign policy) and we are of different tribes, but he is otherwise alright (though occasionally we get snippy with each other).

Basically though I feel a bit sorry for anyone of the GOP Tribe forced to deal with Trump as their leader. You don't want to abandon your tribe and so have to deal with that in charge of the party, doing some stuff you like and a bunch you don't. Ugh.
   951. perros Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5657095)
It was more than the human mind could bear.

Derrida would approve.

Perhaps philosophy fares even worse in translation than poetry. And the different schools of thought tend to break down by language/culture -- idealism, rationalism, empiricism, pragmatism.
   952. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5657096)
Facts matter.

Indeed. And speaking of facts, here are four recent fact-checks run by PolitiFact. Of course some people here seem to think they're nothing but Fake News bearing Democratic hacks, but WTH here they are anyway:

Did Scott Walker take $1 billion from Wisconsin schools, as governor candidate Tony Evers claims? We rated that Mostly False.

Chuck Schumer and Senate Democrats said that in the wake of the Republican-backed tax bill, "more than 100,000 American workers have already been laid off in 2018." That number is wrong several ways. We rated it Mostly False.

We read James Comey's book A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies and Leadership this week, looking for facts to check. Comey's book seems well-researched: We didn't spot any obvious errors in chronology or substance, and we didn't note any errors in dates or titles, either. (If you read the book and spotted something, shoot us an email at holan@politifact.com.) We wrote a summary of Comey's book** to give you a sense of its contents and to look at what Comey had to say about his actions during the 2016 election.

We also looked at President Donald Trump's response to Comey's book, which the president gave in a stream of angry tweets. Trump said that Comey lied to Congress and that Comey leaked classified information, both claims that are ultimately not proven by the evidence. Read our analysis of Trump's tweets.

** Same link as the previous one

Somehow I think Comey's reputation for honesty will long outlast that of any of his current attackers.
   953. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: April 20, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5657100)
Lie and make lots of money from a third rate book


Finally! The President speaks about something he actually knows about!
   954. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5657104)
The congress that ordered the investigation (even if it does turn out - - unlikely as that may seem- to be a sham) was a Republican one.
And Obama and Holder are responsible for the appointment of Horowitz.* Good times.

* Of course, they subsequently sought to curtail his access to critically needed documentation.

Justice Dept. watchdog blasts his own agency for blocking access to wiretaps, grand jury cases and says his job is undermined:
The Justice Department’s inspector general said the 58-page ruling released Thursday by the agency’s Office of Legal Counsel will undermine his ability to do his job rooting out fraud and corruption.

“Without such access, our office’s ability to conduct its work will be significantly impaired, and it will be more difficult for us to detect and deter waste, fraud, and abuse, and to protect taxpayer dollars,” Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz said in a statement. Horowitz is chairman of the Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency, a watchdog over the watchdogs that also sets policy.

“Congress meant what it said when it authorized Inspectors General to independently access ‘all’ documents necessary to conduct effective oversight,” he said.

His disapproval was followed by a bipartisan condemnation from four congressional leaders whose committees have oversight over DOJ, citing numerous inquiries the agency has delayed or blocked by making it harder for investigators’ to get the records they need, particularly intercepted communications.

“The department’s refusal to provide records on a timely basis as required by law wastes months in bureaucratic roadblocks and frustrates the independent oversight Congress created inspectors general to provide,” Sens. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) and Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) and Reps. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) and John Conyers Jr. (Mich.) said in a joint statement, accusing the legal counsel’s office of undermining the independence of federal watchdogs. ...

“Imagine if we had a DOJ [inspector general] during Watergate looking at the FBI’s conduct and the Attorney General had this opinion to deny or delay access to this kind of information,” said Brian Miller, the former inspector general at the General Services Administration who cracked open a spending scandal in Las Vegas. “Or the GSA administrator having the power to withhold certain information regarding the Las Vegas conference…The “Mother May I” legal opinion sets a bad precedent and will slow effective oversight.”
   955. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5657106)
I think the point is that you said that which was true was not true.

This isn't difficult.


It seems to be quite difficult, seeing as I never said any such thing.
   956. perros Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5657109)
I wanted to chirp in on this week's A-bomb discussion, but Ismael's measured voice was enough.

Even if you believe the bombs stopped an inevitable invasion and untold deaths, the literal fallout from the nuclear arms race is a legacy that remains today. Not to mention the conditioned US response when we really do face an existential threat in the future.
   957. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5657111)
At least some of the names I mentioned above will be indicted. Yes, that's my prediction. See you in six months.


This is some banana republic ####. Jason just wants his enemies to be punished. What did they do? Unimportant. What crimes did they commit? We'll figure that out as we go.

Then of course, there's the cry that it's "both sides." The D side is the rule of law. If Trump committed crimes and colluded with a foreign power to swing the election and obstructed the investigation into same, he should be impeached. If he didn't, then he shouldn't. It's that simple.

Jason doesn't care about that at all. He just wants to punish his enemies. He doesn't care if Trump broke the law--he promised to move an embassy, so everything else doesn't matter. The ends justify the means.
   958. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5657112)
Somebody explain it to me in small words, because this news of the DNC filing suit about RUSSIA! seems super dumb to me. What's the purpose? Isn't it redundant, if one assumes Mueller is competent (which I do)?
   959. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5657114)
What's the purpose?


I assumed it was a political stunt, but honestly no clue.
   960. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5657118)
Somebody explain it to me in small words, because this news of the DNC filing suit about RUSSIA! seems super dumb to me. What's the purpose? Isn't it redundant, if one assumes Mueller is competent (which I do)?


The lawsuit echoes a similar legal tactic that the Democratic Party used during the Watergate scandal. In 1972, the DNC filed suit against former president Richard Nixon’s reelection committee seeking $1 million in damages for the break-in at Democratic headquarters in the Watergate building.

The suit was denounced at the time by Nixon’s Attorney General, John Mitchell, who called it a case of “sheer demagoguery” by the DNC. But the civil action brought by former DNC chair Lawrence F. O’Brien was ultimately successful, yielding a $750,000 settlement from the Nixon campaign that was reached on the day in 1974 that Nixon left office.


Probably this.
   961. Count Posted: April 20, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5657120)
958- if it doesn't get dismissed, could get discovery and put more pressure on Trump and company.

JE was completely wrong about the McCabe wrongdoing alleged by the IG -to the point where he refused to accept reporting that was then proved correct- and is claiming vindication.
   962. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5657126)
nowhere in there does he say he fired Comey because of Russia

I guess that's technically true.


There really isn't a difference here between "technically true" and "true." All Trump did was say something his partisan enemies will interpret as meaning he fired Comey because of Russia. But he didn't actually say he fired Comey because of Russia. Those are two entirely different things.

   963. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5657128)
he refused to accept reporting that was then proved correct- and is claiming vindication.

The Republican Way!
   964. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5657135)
What's the purpose?


To try to keep the "Trump colluded," "Trump's in imminent legal peril" narrative going after Mueller shuts his doors without action against Trump. As is the Cohen raid, though there could be some actual substance there depending on what Cohen has been up to.
   965. Jay Z Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5657137)
Trying to match presidential approval ratings to upcoming midterm results is, to say the least, problematic. At the far edges-- POTUS in the toilet, POTUS soaring high-- yeah, there's some correlation. But the middle is kind of mushy, and not as parabolically predictable as people presume. (Try saying that in a Daffy Duck voice with a mouthful of cereal.)

41% or 42% for Trump isn't any good, but it's not seismically, historically bad.(*) You can't take a 41% President and say with any confidence, "His party's going to do worse in the midterms than a 48% President's party would." We are talking about a fairly small bag of data points here. The numbers correspond a little better with presidential year election results, though, which isn't super surprising.

(*)However, it seems that the current "the other side must suffer and die" political tenor has narrowed the approval rating spectrum. It's harder and less common to get a 29% or a 68% than it used to be. And Bush Jr. aside, there's been less noise in the timeline graphs. Trump's approval graph is flat enough that it looks almost like a country's flag design. So it's likely that Trump is closer to the bottom with his 41% than GHW Bush or Reagan or Carter were when they were at 41%.


Well, that plays into Trump's hands To me anyway, Trump is a bad president for non-ideological reasons. Indeed, he barely seems to care about 99% of the ideology. He's bad for other reasons. But we can't get past a floor because 95% of politics right now is the (R) or (D) behind the name. It's a weakness of the current societal makeup.
   966. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5657139)
Well, that plays into Trump's hands To me anyway, Trump is a bad president for non-ideological reasons. Indeed, he barely seems to care about 99% of the ideology. He's bad for other reasons. But we can't get past a floor because 95% of politics right now is the (R) or (D) behind the name. It's a weakness of the current societal makeup.

How does this story fit into that narrative?

In Rural Tennessee, a Big ICE Raid Makes Some Conservative Voters Rethink Trump’s Immigration Agenda
April 5th began in the usual way at the Southeastern Provision meat-processing plant, in Bean Station, Tennessee—some workers were breaking down carcasses on the production line, while others cleaned the floors—until, around 9 A.M., a helicopter began circling above the plant. Moments later, a fleet of cars pulled up outside. Agents from the I.R.S., Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), and the Tennessee Highway Patrol emerged, and proceeded to arrest ninety-seven people, most of them originally from Mexico or Guatemala, for working without legal papers. It was the largest workplace roundup of immigrants in a decade....

This past weekend, I travelled to Morristown to talk to the families affected by the raid and also to observe how the wider community was responding. While Hamblen County is home to a sizable immigrant community from Central America—11.5 per cent of its population is Hispanic, more than twice the state average—it’s also a deeply conservative place. In 2016, seventy-seven per cent of the county voted for Donald Trump. Yet in the two weeks since the raid, Morristown residents have helped raise sixty thousand dollars to help families with relatives in detention. A vigil was held in support of the families of those arrested, and volunteers from local schools, churches, and businesses had been distributing food and coördinating other forms of assistance. For many people in town, the raid exposed the human costs of the political fight over immigration policy.

“Immigration is kind of a hot-button topic here,” Hank Smith, a fifty-year-old salesman from Morristown, told me. “Some people feel like immigrants are taking our jobs, that they’re not paying their taxes. But others are more sympathetic.” Smith counts himself among the latter group. “I’m a Christian; God loves everybody equally. And I never had a problem with anyone being here,” he said. Nevertheless, in 2016, Smith voted for Trump. He had been mostly indifferent to Trump’s anti-immigrant invective on the campaign trail; the rhetoric didn’t resonate with him personally, but it didn’t alienate him, either. “My kids were getting to an age where they’d be going to work, so the economy was the major issue for my family,” he told me. “It’s the things that affect us the most that we vote on. And immigration didn’t really affect me before. But then this raid happened.”

After Trump took office, ICE announced that it planned to quadruple the number of workplace inspections it conducts. In January, the agency launched stings at ninety-eight 7-Eleven franchises in seventeen states. Smith hadn’t noticed those. But when the arrests happened closer to home, he was immediately struck by the fact that many of the people who’d been picked up had lived in the area for more than a decade. He knew people like them, he told me—“they work hard and they do the jobs that no one else wants to do.” He also felt strong sympathy for their kids. Smith said, “I felt I understood the legal side of it. But this is the first time I really started looking at the human side. Families are being divided.”...

On Sunday afternoon, thirty people gathered in the chapel of St. Patrick church for an information session that had been advertised with flyers that read, “Immigration Law Explained for the Rest of Us.” The church’s pastor had asked Stephanie Teatro, the co-executive director of the Tennessee Immigrant & Refugee Rights Coalition, an advocacy group from Nashville that had been coördinating legal services for the immigrant families in Morristown, to hold the meeting in order to field questions from parishioners. Attendees, most of them white and middle-aged, sat attentively in the pews and took notes. “Did anyone here move to Morristown from somewhere else?” Teatro asked. A majority of the parishioners raised their hands. Teatro encouraged them to call out the reasons they’d moved to the town—“for work,” one person shouted. “To raise a family,” another said. “The immigrant community has come for the same reason, it’s just that they have maybe come from a slightly farther distance,” Teatro said.

The hourlong session covered technical topics, such as the dearth of work visas issued by the federal government each year and the administrative difficulties of getting legalized as an immigrant. People gasped audibly when Teatro explained that it could take more than twenty years for Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. to sponsor family members to come to the country legally. A man sitting next to me leaned over to commiserate. “I didn’t realize it was so hard,” he whispered.

One woman in attendance was a forty-three-year-old named Deborah, who described herself to me as a conservative voter. “The voting options seem kind of narrow,” she said. “I wish it were easier to pick and choose positions from both parties.” She and her husband had moved to Morristown from Illinois a few years ago. “My thoughts on immigration were very different before coming here,” she said. Where she lived in Illinois, the churches had been more segregated. In Morristown, though, she interacted with immigrants often at St. Patrick. “In the past, in my heart, I wanted to support these people, but in my mind I also knew they weren’t all here legally,” she said. After the raid, she had no doubts about wanting to help—she saw it as a Christian imperative. She also decided to educate herself about immigration policy. “I never understood all the technicalities of what it takes to become a legalized resident. How can I judge what I don’t understand?”

Hank Smith still supports the President, and even welcomes some of his most contentious ideas, such as the border wall. But when he hears politicians talk about the “problem of immigration,” he told me, he no longer sees it as a question of how to stem the flow of migrants to the U.S. but, rather, of how to create avenues for them to come legally. “Maybe the wall is part of the broader process,” he said. “If we see that a wall is working, we need to see a policy to get people in here legally. It’s not going to be fixed overnight, but I want to see the President take a hard look at all this.” At the moment, there are two anti-immigrant bills moving rapidly through the Tennessee legislature. One of them would disallow a form of identification—called “consular I.D.s”—that most Mexican immigrants use in lieu of state driver’s licenses, for which they can’t qualify in Tennessee; the other would impose penalties on towns that pursue sanctuary policies. Smith told me he hadn’t known about the first bill, but that he was incensed by the second. “The sanctuary-city bill is just awful,” he said. “It’ll divide the state. We should be trying to come together.”
   967. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5657140)

Of course, Trump did say he fired Comey over Russia, and no amount of trolling can change that. "When I did X, I was thinking Y" is another way of saying "I did X because of Y."
   968. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5657144)
JE was completely wrong about the McCabe wrongdoing alleged by the IG -to the point where he refused to accept reporting that was then proved correct- and is claiming vindication.
LOL. As noted previously, McCabe had apparently stacked the deck for Hillary and against Trump, then leaked to the WSJ after his wife's cozy political-financial ties to McAuliffe got publicized, in a hasty effort to cover his sorry ass.
   969. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5657146)
This is some banana republic ####. Jason just wants his enemies to be punished. What did they do? Unimportant. What crimes did they commit? We'll figure that out as we go.

Then of course, there's the cry that it's "both sides." The D side is the rule of law. If Trump committed crimes and colluded with a foreign power to swing the election and obstructed the investigation into same, he should be impeached. If he didn't, then he shouldn't. It's that simple.

Jason doesn't care about that at all. He just wants to punish his enemies. He doesn't care if Trump broke the law--he promised to move an embassy, so everything else doesn't matter. The ends justify the means.
Wow, shipman's so convincing! Did he spend the better part of an hour practicing these lines in front of the full-length mirror before sitting in front of the keyboard?

Notice how shipman doesn't even fathom the possibility that Hillary, members of her campaign, or Obama administration officials committed any illicit acts, either during the campaign or afterward. Does he really think McCabe's the only bad actor here? Heck, he doesn't even seem willing to openly acknowledge that the former deputy director is up the creek sans paddle.

It's really quite adorable!
   970. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5657147)
doesn't even fathom the possibility that Hillary, members of her campaign, or Obama administration officials committed any illicit acts, either during the campaign or afterward.

Vince Foster and those poor pizza kids on Mars know better.
   971. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5657150)
I'll repeat what I've said before - if HRC, or her campaign, committed illicit acts, then by all means prosecute.

The existence of any such acts are entirely independent of DJT being a clown, and whether he and/or his campaign committed illicit acts. If they did, then by all means prosecute.

Discussing one should have nothing to do with discussing the other. That's why responding to "Trump is being clownish again" with "but, but, HRC!!!" is dumb.
   972. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5657151)
Wow, shipman's so convincing! Did he spend the better part of an hour practicing these lines in front of the full-length mirror before sitting in front of the keyboard?

Notice how shipman doesn't even fathom the possibility that Hillary, members of her campaign, or Obama administration officials committed any illicit acts, either during the campaign or afterward. Does he really think McCabe's the only bad actor here? Heck, he doesn't even seem willing to openly acknowledge that the former deputy director is up the creek sans paddle.

It's really quite adorable!


Get help, dude. This can't be healthy for you.
   973. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5657152)
Jason is apparently Matt Gaetz.
   974. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5657154)
Discussing one should have nothing to do with discussing the other. That's why responding to "Trump is being clownish again" with "but, but, HRC!!!" is dumb.
You may have that backward, PepTech. If you don't believe me, read my initial comment (#905), then check out Andy's response.
   975. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5657155)

LOL. As noted previously, McCabe had apparently stacked the deck for Hillary and against Trump, then leaked to the WSJ after his wife's cozy political-financial ties to McAuliffe got publicized, in a hasty effort to cover his sorry ass.
OIG found that McCabe lied about leaking, and that his leaks were primarily to make himself look good, but that the substance of the leaks was true; he was backing the CF investigation.
   976. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5657156)
Get help, dude. This can't be healthy for you.
At the rate you're going, It's only a matter of time before you feverishly pack your bags and sublease zonkie's Canadian hideaway.
   977. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5657157)
OIG found that McCabe lied about leaking, and that his leaks were primarily to make himself look good, but that the substance of the leaks was true; he was backing the CF investigation.
And that's why it's so fascinating: Even high-ranking government officials will turn on each other after their covert scheme gets revealed.
   978. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5657160)
Somebody explain it to me in small words, because this news of the DNC filing suit about RUSSIA! seems super dumb to me. What's the purpose? Isn't it redundant, if one assumes Mueller is competent (which I do)
The DNC is flailing around, hoping reporters will breathlessly chase after this frivolous suit. Which reminds me: They'll soon get hit with sizable FEC fines for trying to hide the Fusion GPS payments.

EDIT: Mouse and I are (more or less) in agreement!
   979. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5657161)
At the rate you're going, It's only a matter of time before you feverishly pack your bags and sublease zonkie's Canadian hideaway.


And at the rate you and your merry band of cheetoh cancers are going, I expect Canada to be up for prosecution next.

Quite a banana republic you're building.

You should be very proud.
   980. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5657162)
Of course, Trump did say he fired Comey over Russia, and no amount of trolling can change that.


Of course he didn't, and no amount of childish lashing out at a better argument as "trolling" can change that.

"When I did X, I was thinking Y" is another way of saying "I did X because of Y."


It's no such thing, for the reasons I've alluded to, but even if it was the "because of" here would be "Russia is a made-up story."(*) Not "I wanted to end the Russia inquiry."

(*) At which point, the "because of" falls apart because of lack of perceptible, logical tie. As it would, for example, in "When I fired Comey, I was thinking, "New York pizza is better than Chicago."

   981. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5657165)
Quite a banana republic you're building.

You should be very proud.
Check out the tone on zonkie. What's the matter, is your inquisition not going quite as planned? :(((
   982. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5657167)
Check out the tone on zonkie. Is your inquisition not going quite as planned?


I'd say it's going exactly how one would expect.

Spineless lapdogs rally around Pussygrabber McRussiapiss because they lack any an actual character. Film at 11.

The sun failing to rise tomorrow would be less surprising.
   983. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5657168)
What's the matter, is your inquisition not going quite as planned? :(((

Mirror, Donald Trump, repeat as needed.
   984. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5657170)
Moreover, if he was going to be a witness for anything important, Mueller never would have had him plead guilty to being a multiple liar.

If only our justice system allowed delays in sentencing recommendations and once someone struck a plea, a prosecutor could install language into the plea deal that required the guilty party to provide continued cooperation and henceforth, be forthright or risk losing the generous plea deal and correspondingly lower band penalties.

A prosecutor would generally prefer to avoid his star witness pleading to perjury because he could then make use of that witness' testimony without his testimony being impeached as coming from an OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED LIAR. In that context, the plea bargain's leverage over the witness is also going to be attacked as giving the witness ample reason to say whatever the prosecutor wants. If you have a cooperating witness willing to testify against his fellow participants in a criminal enterprise, a prosecutor would normally prefer that the witness plead to some aspect of the criminal enterprise, since it reinforces the idea that the witness was involved in the criminal activity and in a position to know what others did, without weakening his credibility. Criminal prosecutions can be quite messy, and perhaps Mueller has his reasons, or just lacked other options, but Flynn's plea agreement may not be quite the asset some here have suggested.
   985. Omineca Greg Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5657171)
Even if you believe the bombs stopped an inevitable invasion and untold deaths, the literal fallout from the nuclear arms race is a legacy that remains today. Not to mention the conditioned US response when we really do face an existential threat in the future.


I went to the Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos. I found it an intense experience.

It's actually a fairly modest museum, a few artifacts, a few videos. I had three takeaways.

It was the first museum I had been to that allowed so much dissent. There's a corner of the building dedicated to letting visitors express their views on the Manhattan Project, books to write in, walls to scrawl on. It was good and well used, you can pick up these books where visitors have written down their thoughts, often arguing hammer and tong with earlier commentators, people who they'll never get to meet in real life. Coming from Canada, I wasn't used to that, I'm more used to being dictated to. This is a museum where you can argue with the curators. Or defend them if you want. Plenty of people doing both. Changed my perception on free speech. But more on that later.

It's obvious if I had thought about it even for a second, but seeing pictures and hearing recordings of the military's take on all these brilliant scientists being in one place was interesting. The military administration really couldn't understand what was going on, the science was beyond them, yet they were the ones responsible for getting this thing built. I can only imagine what that would be like, how intimidating, knowing the importance of the project, but being so incapable of truly understanding the nuts and bolts issues that were being so hotly debated.

Most of the museum isn't actually dedicated to the Manhattan Project; the greater part is there to explain the purpose of what they do in Los Alamos now...figuring out ways to make sure the American nuclear arsenal still works. Without being allowed to test them, it's a challenge to explain (and when I say "explain" I mean "scare the #### out of") to America's enemies that all these things are ready, willing, and able, to go at a moment's notice. So in that way, it was a transparent propaganda headquarters. "Look how well this warhead will work. Tell your friends." I'm sure if you were knowledgeable nuclear science person that part would have been fascinating, as it was, it grabbed my interest, but in a different way...

Sure, you were allowed to come to the museum and say whatever you wanted about the ethics and morals about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but in the end, it didn't really matter very much. The warheads are still around, they will never be dismantled. As one who finds the whole quagmire completely overwhelming, all I can do is admit my ambivalence and confusion, so despite having a long time to decide if what happened in 1945 was the right thing to do, we haven't been able to take advantage of all that luxurious hindsight to have better, finely formulated answer of what to do if it looks like they're needed again. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure volumes of great thought has been written about the ethics surrounding these weapons, but this museum did a wonderful job of having its cake...and eating it too. Freedom and no freedom, a right to speech, but no one has to listen. I walked away feeling quite dispirited, and quite nihilistic, which isn't the way I normally am. So...I don't know.

On the plus side... I got a really nice pint glass!

And OK, how 'bout a song? Great song about three great Missourians...

Well, me and Mark Twain were having us a ball
Telling each other lies, floating down from Hannibal
With a bottle and a worm and a cane pole
We were fishing for secrets where the catfish crawl

And the Mississippi River's flowing downstream
Meet the Gulf of Mexico somewhere downstream
Meet the Atlantic Ocean somewhere downstream
Gonna meet you in the water somewhere downstream

Well, we picked up Harry Truman floating down from Independence
We said "What about the war?", he said "Good riddance"
We said "What about the Bomb, are you sorry that you did it?"
He said "Pass me that bottle, and mind your own business"


And the Mississippi River's flowing downstream
Meet the Gulf of Mexico somewhere downstream
Meet the Atlantic Ocean somewhere downstream
Gonna meet you in the water somewhere downstream
Well, we're rounding St. Louis and heading for the coast
When we pick up Chuck Berry in a little rowboat
With one oar in the water and one in the air
A lightning rod for a white guitar

And lightning struck once, and lightning struck twice
And I said "If there's a God, He sure ain't nice"
And Chuck said "God is an Indian giver
I don't trust nothing but the Mississippi River"

And the Mississippi River's flowing downstream
Meet the Gulf of Mexico somewhere downstream
Meet the Atlantic Ocean somewhere downstream
Gonna meet you in the water somewhere downstream

Walkenhorst

For some reason, The Rainmakers are very popular in Norway. No, I don't know why.
   986. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5657172)
At which point, the "because of" falls apart because of lack of perceptible, logical tie. As it would, for example, in "When I fired Comey, I was thinking, "New York pizza is better than Chicago."


The willful ignorance is strong in this one.

So, the head of the FBI, the agency which was conducting the Russia investigation, is as unrelated to the Russia investigation as New York style pizza?
   987. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5657173)
And that's why it's so fascinating: Even high-ranking government officials will turn on each other after their covert scheme gets revealed.


...

What covert scheme?

Man this is some weird ####.
   988. -- Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5657174)
So, the head of the FBI, the agency which was conducting the Russia investigation, is as unrelated to the Russia investigation as New York style pizza?


No. It's a typical rhetorical device wherein a more extreme, obvious example demonstrates the point being asserted. I've used it a number of times, and the response has often been in a similar vein to yours.

"When I fired Comey, I was thinking, 'New York pizza is better than Chicago'" shows two things. Number one, that it isn't the case that thinking something while doing something means you're doing the thing because of what you're thinking. Number two, that the two can be so disconnected that the assertion makes no logical sense.
   989. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5657175)
No. It's a typical rhetorical device wherein a more extreme, obvious example demonstrates the point being asserted. I've used it a number of times, and the response has often been in a similar vein to yours.

Your utilization of any linguistic/literary/grammatical terms is pretty much why I think you're actually not a fake lawyer. Congratulations.
   990. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5657178)
BTW, there are two more Horowitz reports due for release in the coming weeks. Let's see how McCabe and others fare with regard to the Hillary server inquiry and the FISC warrant applications.
   991. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5657179)
Discussing one should have nothing to do with discussing the other. That's why responding to "Trump is being clownish again" with "but, but, HRC!!!" is dumb.

You may have that backward, PepTech. If you don't believe me, read my initial comment (#905), then check out Andy's response.
Seems to me the original Dumb there was Trump himself. Comey's actions are independent of Flynn's.

If you want to dig into it further, Flynn's under federal indictment, and Comey isn't (yet, anyway!). And if Trump really wants to lament how leakers and liars profit, maybe he should reconsider Scooter Libby.

Anyway, I don't see any widespread defense of McCabe - for the most part, the sentiment seems to be "if he's guilty, go after him, whatever". McCabe's guilt or innocence has nothing to do with Flynn, or Manafort, or (The Hapless) Papadopolous.

Furthermore, are you really claiming moral high ground by virtue of being "better than Andy"? Because that bar is low ;)
   992. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5657180)
It's no such thing, for the reasons I've alluded to, but even if it was the "because of" here would be "Russia is a made-up story."(*) Not "I wanted to end the Russia inquiry."

(*) At which point, the "because of" falls apart because of lack of perceptible, logical tie. As it would, for example, in "When I fired Comey, I was thinking, "New York pizza is better than Chicago."

This seems a bizarre reading. If I ask my brother why he bought a van rather than a car, and he answers: "Well, I was thinking, I run a couple softball teams...I chose the bigger vehicle".

I suppose I could assume those are two completely distinct, unrelated thoughts. Or I could puzzle over what the possible connection between the two concepts might be. But since I know my brother has communicated with other human beings before, I would presume he's trying to tell me his choice was based on his need to store softball equipment.

If I ask someone why they did something, and they answer with "I thought to myself..." or "I was thinking..." then I don't think it's crazy to treat that statement as an explanation. Otherwise I'd spend my life constantly bewildered by apparent non sequiturs.
   993. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5657183)
As a follow up, if I ask my brother why he bought a van rather than a car, and he answers: "well, I was thinking New York pizza is better than Chicago pizza - I chose the van", then I immediately lose all interest in the van and ask him if he just had a stroke.
   994. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5657184)
Comey's actions are independent of Flynn's.
McCabe's guilt or innocence has nothing to do with Flynn, or Manafort, or (The Hapless) Papadopolous.
I'm just about ready to wager there's a direct connection between McCabe and Flynn.
Furthermore, are you really claiming moral high ground by virtue of being "better than Andy"? Because that bar is low ;)
Hey! In some jurisdictions, that remark would constitute elder abuse. (smile)
   995. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5657185)
"When I fired Comey, I was thinking, 'New York pizza is better than Chicago' shows two things. Number one, that it isn't the case that thinking something while doing something means you're doing the thing because of what you're thinking. Number two, that the two can be so disconnected that the assertion makes no logical sense.


Can be disconnected doesn't mean they always are. If they are disconnected, sure, one thing had nothing to do with the other. It doesn't not follow when the two are extremely connected. They don't always absolutely have to be connected, but it's damned good evidence they are.

"When I saw Javvy Baez crush that 400 foot HR into the teeth of the wind, I was thinking "Wow, that guy has a lot of power". It would be ridiculous to say that my thinking he has a lot of power is unrelated to his display of power.

"When I fired the guy heading up the agency which was conducting the Russia investigation, I was thinking "This whole Russia investigation is a fake, a phony." The thought and the action are extremely related.

edit: And of course, let's not get drawn into the weeds any further on this stupid 'Well I was thinking nonsense..." Remember what he told the Russian in the Oval Office shortly after the firing, that firing Comey took a lot of pressure off of him.
   996. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5657188)
As a follow up, if I ask my brother why he bought a van rather than a car, and he answers: "well, I was thinking New York pizza is better than Chicago pizza - I chose the van", then I immediately lose all interest in the van and ask him if he just had a stroke.
What the hell are you guys talking about? And why am I suddenly hungry?
   997. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5657190)
What the hell are you guys talking about? And why am I suddenly hungry?

Do you smell toast?

It would actually be fun if this spun out into a discussion of sociology and communication.
   998. DavidFoss Posted: April 20, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5657194)
Every time I see "Larvell B", I think of "Cardi B". I have decided to put that image in my head whenever I read his posts.
   999. Stormy JE Posted: April 20, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5657196)
More importantly, Greg K, are you joining us in Central Park in August?
   1000. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5657205)
Flip.
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