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Monday, April 02, 2018

OTP 2018 Apr 2: This Opening Day, keep baseball pure—and keep the politics out of it

In a year when American culture seems to be dissolving before our very eyes in the shadow of a political discourse that often seems as turbid as it is abhorrent, there’s always baseball.

I grew up the daughter of a man who loved baseball; over the years my Mom learned to enjoy it just as much. My dad played it, listened to it, watched it, collected cards of players he admired. I can’t even pinpoint my first baseball experience, such is the way the entirety of the game enveloped around and melded into my childhood memories.

 

I grew up in Minnesota and thus cheered ardently for the Twins. I don’t hear about them much anymore; they haven’t had too many consecutive stellar seasons as of late, but they won the World Series twice when I was a kid—1987 and 1991—and we watched home games at the Metrodome (a huge dome with a cover that was not retractable because, hello, Minnesota). Before my brother was born, the three of us went to games—my Dad reminded me we could buy tickets in left field for $5 and we’d bring in our own bags of peanuts (in the shells of course!) and peanut M & M’s.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

 

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:57 AM | 1715 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: good old days, opening day, politics, twins

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   101. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5646880)
I think I spent maybe 50% of my courses on literature, perhaps less.

But was that required? I took a lot more English (and some history and political science courses) than I had to, but I didn't have to do that to get a degree in English.
   102. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5646881)
Lots of illegals pay taxes - they get taken out of their paychecks.


Then they've defrauded the employer because they don't have a Social Security number. That's the only way to withhold, right? If not, I'll correct, but I very much do not believe an employer can withhold taxes for a non-legal employee. Where does the money go?
   103. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5646882)
It's only cash-only "under the table" employment that doesn't get taxed.


And illegals are hardly the only demographic that gets paid this way.
   104. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5646883)
The Genius Strikes Again!

Fresh shockwaves hit U.S. markets after Trump tweets, China steps up trade war
Stocks dropped Monday as technology companies came under fire and fears grew about a trade war with China.

The Dow Jones industrial average plunged down more than 580 points, or 2.4 percent, by midday. The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index was down 2.6 percent and the tech-heavy Nasdaq Composite was down 2.9 percent as volatility continues to rock markets.

As of early afternoon trading, all three indexes were negative for the year and were in correction territory. A correction is generally considered a 10 percent drop from its peak.
   105. Count Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5646884)
What is the loss of fines that you're talking about Ray? And how have you gone this many years talking about immigration without reading about these issues?

Good summary of report in 2016 on costs and benefits of immigration by Tom Edsall here.
   106. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5646885)
and they also take the money they earn and use it to.... remit a far bigger proportion of it to their actual home country than a legal worker


Got evidence for this?
   107. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5646886)
Wait, what?

A human head transplant would be reckless and ghastly. It’s time to talk about it. Two surgeons based in China say such surgery is “imminent.”

Critics cite the lack of adequate preliminary and animal studies, the absence of published literature on the techniques and their outcomes, the unexplored ethical problems, and the circus-like atmosphere encouraged by Canavero. Many are also understandably worried about the source of the cadaver — China has a troubling history of using executed prisoners as their body supply for transplants.

Some bioethicists argue we should simply ignore this subject, lest we contribute to the circus. A few made precisely that point in a recent special issue of the American Journal of Bioethics Neuroscience, which I edit, devoted to head transplants. One writer argued for dropping the discussion, henceforth, in favor of “discourse that actually affects people’s lives not just fuels ghoulish fantasies.”

But I disagree that bioethicists should ignore head transplants. Perhaps Canavero and Ren will not succeed in attempting a live head transplant this time around, yet they will undoubtedly not be the last to try, which makes it important to consider the ethical implications of such an attempt.
   108. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5646887)
What level course would that be that you teach all that stuff?

EDIT: And how much of an English major's curriculum is devoted to courses in English in the UK compared to the USA. This is for BDC and Preserved Fish who have matriculated in both places


Morty, my Italian-lit course is senior level. It serves as a capstone course for some of the students and an elective for the others. I'm going to teach a similar survey of Irish literature in the fall, but it's an introductory literary-history course, where they'll do less reading of prose, more close reading of poetry, and more reports on the overall "canon" of literature.

As to the second question … I never went to school in the UK, I just know a lot of people who did (UK and the Republic of Ireland, which is similar.) My sense is that the two systems aren't quite parallel, but use many of the same terms, which is confusing. Each level of the British system is roughly equivalent to a slightly higher level of the American system, and slightly more specialized, and fewer people do that level than in America. (Except for the PhD dissertation, which is pretty much the same in both systems.)

Honestly, I'd have thought that a university English major in Britain would do 100% English courses (as GregK notes for history), though there might be some cross-disciplinary work involved. At least they'd sit entirely English exams. They certainly wouldn't have to pass math and science and Heroes of Texas or whatever "core" American undergraduates take. But some universities may be changing. My knowledge is somewhat out of date; I still call the basic secondary exam an "O-level" but it hasn't been officially called that in many years IIRC.
   109. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5646888)
Got evidence for this?


For the fact that an illegal Mexican remits more money to a foreign country than, say, a fourth-generation Michigander?

Please. There's no need to prove that water is wet.

It's a new day in PretendVille!!
   110. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5646889)
Got evidence for this?


The voices in his head. The ones that yell at him and tell him legal immigrants, second generation immigrants and such never ever send money home. But yes, some money is sent out of country, however illegal immigrants still buy stuff. Food, clothing, housing, entertainment and on and on and on.
   111. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5646890)
And illegals are hardly the only demographic that gets paid this way.


So? Every single one of them is an illegal worker. That's simply a fact. Do with the fact what you will, but it is in fact, a fact. They didn't *just* cross the border illegally. It's illegal for them to work.
   112. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5646891)
But was that required? I took a lot more English (and some history and political science courses) than I had to, but I didn't have to do that to get a degree in English.


I bet that my requirements were similar to those that Greg K posted.
   113. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5646892)
For the fact that an illegal Mexican remits more money to a foreign country than, say, a fourth-generation Michigander?


Wow, it's almost as if you purposely changed the premise. I believe there is a phrase for this. You said illegal immigrant vs legal one, not US citizen.
   114. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5646893)
You said illegal immigrant vs legal one, not US citizen.


No, I didn't. I said "legal worker," which includes long-established US citizens.

BTF's D student (*) strikes again.

(*) Not original to me, but borrowed for a proper purpose, I'd wager.
   115. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5646896)
I was surprised when I was teaching in the UK at how specialized their degrees are. I don't think there were any non-history majors in my classes. And none of the students seemed to be taking anything but history classes. It seems to be much more focused there - if you're reading History that's what you focus on. In Canada (and the US I assume?), things are a lot more inter-disciplinary.

Yeah, that's my impression of the differences when it comes to concentrating on your major with respect to the USA and the UK. When you get out of the UK, you really know something about your major. When you get out of a US college, you know less but you have a general education. There's something to be said for both styles. When I was an undergraduate, I wasn't interested in much besides English (extra History and Poli Sci), and it was frustrating to have to take so many irrelevant non-related courses. But I've branched out into being interested in other areas of learning in my old age, and I guess that general education helped facilitate that.
   116. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5646897)
I mean, they could pay the fee; the could also (wrongly) put it into someone's else dumpster, or mix it in with the waste at a legit site. Also possible that they have a dumpster delivered under the homeowners name. Outside of tire dumping in Detroit, I've never run across stories about this.


They quote the homeowners a cut rate. The homeowner isn't paying additionally for this (or the homeowner would just hire a legal business) and the immigrant isn't slashing his take-home 40%.
   117. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5646899)
But they pay sales taxes! What about that? What about sales taxes, huh?!??!?!?!!


Strangely this argument doesn't seem to help the "tax cheats" Andy is always hissing about. (smile)
   118. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5646900)
Strangely this argument doesn't seem to help the "tax cheats" Andy is always whining about. (smile)


I think I hit that in a later post ... LOL.
   119. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5646904)
They quote the homeowners a cut rate. The homeowner isn't paying additionally for this (or the homeowner would just hire a legal business) and the immigrant isn't slashing his take-home 40%.


Yeah, I mean what a shock it is that illegal, black market labor and its co-conspirators are violating other regulations.

Simply shocking.
   120. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5646906)
I fail to see how illegal dumping is an illegal immigrant thing. The junkyard isn't exactly crawling with ICE agents. I guess under the "people that did one illegal thing might do another illegal thing" theory.
   121. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5646907)
Sigh. What is the benefit for people having jobs to society? The big economic benefit is they produce value while working (their productivity) and they also take the money they earn and use it to buy goods and services. Money gets spent multiple times in an economy, it doesn't just go to the employee and stop.


This doesn't address what I mentioned above:

* Education costs. Which are massive.
* Health care costs. Which are massive.
* Loss of tax revenue from income taxes and general fines that the rest of us have to bear. Which is massive.
   122. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5646909)
Ray really loves taxes allofasudden.
   123. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5646910)
I guess under the "people that did one illegal thing might do another illegal thing" theory.


Yeah, you'll tend to find more collateral illegality in an inherently illegal relationship. Not a great shock there to anyone paying attention.
   124. zenbitz Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5646911)
* Education costs. Which are massive.

Are they? But education isn't a cost - it's an investment.

* Health care costs. Which are massive.


So what are we talking about here - literally ER charges unpaid by the patient. That is the the only cost that the Government pays out. Illegal immigrants don't get Medicare or Medicaid.

* Loss of tax revenue from income taxes and general fines that the rest of us have to bear. Which is massive.


Only if net outpay of services is > than net work put into the system by the worker. Which seems unlikely or the economy would collapse.
   125. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5646912)
It's only cash-only "under the table" employment that doesn't get taxed.

And illegals are hardly the only demographic that gets paid this way.


They're hardly the only demographic that causes drunk driving fatalities too -- every group does this. But we can't deport the citizens who do this, or prevent them from coming here in the first place. This is the right's argument.

This is what caused the screaming match that Geraldo and O'Reilly got into.
   126. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5646913)
Lots of illegals pay taxes - they get taken out of their paychecks.

Then they've defrauded the employer because they don't have a Social Security number. That's the only way to withhold, right? If not, I'll correct, but I very much do not believe an employer can withhold taxes for a non-legal employee. Where does the money go?

People seem to think the complicated system of fraud that illegal aliens necessarily have to engage in is trivial. But it isn't. To work and pay taxes, including Social Security taxes, an alien has to have a valid social security number. Now, that number may not be his, but it has to pass muster. It's usually either a number obtained fraudulently through forgeries or is someone else's valid number. Or, these immigrants work for cash and don't pay income and FICA taxes. I worked for the Social Security Adm. and let me tell you earnings records can become ###### beyond all remedy.

And since they haven't paid into the Social Security system, when it comes time to retire, guess what? More investigations, more half-hearted corrections, and ultimately the welfare system takes care of it. The system is gamed every which way.
   127. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5646915)
But they pay sales taxes! What about that? What about sales taxes, huh?!??!?!?!!

Combining bold, italics and ten punctuation marks - the calling card of one of the sane ones.
   128. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5646916)
* Education costs. Which are massive.
* Health care costs. Which are massive.
* Loss of tax revenue from income taxes and general fines that the rest of us have to bear. Which is massive.


And the first two are largely free-ridden since illegal immigrants are by and large not paying their taxes.

But pay no attention to the Oz behind the curtain.

It's funny; I've really never had much of a beef with a few illegal immigrants sneaking over and making lives for themselves and still really don't -- but the modern left's bizarre and late extremism on the issue leaves the sane centrist no choice but to call it out for what it is. Illegal immigrants seem to be the target, but the real target is modern lefty extremism.

Modern liberals just couldn't leave the unspoken compromise alone and had to start screaming "racism" and turning to ennobling and fetishization and division. Typical. And now here we are.
   129. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5646918)
To work and pay taxes, including Social Security taxes, an alien has to have a valid social security number. Now, that number may not be his, but it has to pass muster.


Right -- so they either commit identity fraud, or don't pay taxes.

Neither is a good look -- unless you're a modern liberal extremist ... at which point it's a Noble look.
   130. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5646919)
* Education costs. Which are massive.
* Health care costs. Which are massive.
* Loss of tax revenue from income taxes and general fines that the rest of us have to bear. Which is massive.

Ahh, the brilliant legal mind and writer repeatedly using that famously evidence-based word...'massive'.
   131. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5646920)
Ray really loves taxes allofasudden.


This is disingenuous. I've never minded people paying Their Fair Share. We can argue over what that is but what it most certainly is not is some people paying 35% and some people paying 0% -- not because the tax laws in place have deemed that they can pay 0% but because they're not reporting in to the government. And the government doesn't give a rat's ass that they're not reporting in.

Giving a rat's ass about some people reporting in but not others is BS. It's what stokes resentment.
   132. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5646923)
This is disingenuous.


Eh, I'm just ribbing you.
   133. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5646926)
I guess it's time for the boss to come to town for the annual performance appraisal meeting.

President Trump has reportedly invited Vladimir Putin to the White House for a visit, according to a statement from the Kremlin. Putin aide Yury Ushakov told reporters Monday that during a March 20 phone conversation, Trump “suggested that the first meeting could be held in Washington” between the two leaders.
   134. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5646927)
And it is quite easy to stop illegal immigration--or, rather, to take a major step in stopping it. And it wouldn't cost much. You and I right now can go to the Social Security website and get access to our record almost instantaneously. Why couldn't an employer do the same as to an employee or a prospective employee? Get a waiver for the job-seeker/worker and check him out. Either it's his number or it ain't; either it's a real number belonging to someone or it ain't.
   135. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5646930)
The "social contract" -- since the left likes to talk about these -- is: We'll pay taxes and we'll pay your chicken #### traffic and parking fines and in return you take care of the communities; the roads; the schools; education; etc.

But what's happening instead -- particularly in California -- is that the government encourages illegal immigration and doesn't care about it. So an entire group of people gets to work without licenses and without paying taxes; they get to dump their waste on the sidewalk which causes a complete mess; they get to sell their flowers on the street and not be taxed or harassed like other businesses are; they get to drive without licenses and insurance; they get to be judgment proof.

The same happens with homeless people in California. It used to be a result of mental illness or drug use. Now there's a third cause: it's a lifestyle choice. And so you have homeless encampments lining the streets for long distances; not contributing to society because they've checked out. It creates an eye sore. And the government allows it and even goes so far as to deify homeless people.

And so the social contract has broken down. CA residents pay their taxes and pay their fines and in return the government is NOT doing anything about the problems caused by illegal immigration or the eye sores caused by homeless people. And so the question becomes, why pay your taxes and your fines, which are levied selectively, when the government isn't holding up its end of the social contract at all? Instead the government elevates the interests of non-citizens and non-taxpayers over the interests of taxpayers. Because the government wants votes, and wants to virtue signal, and knows that it can't get money out of illegal immigrants or out of homeless people -- so the government lets them slide.

The system is one big snafu.
   136. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5646932)
People seem to think the complicated system of fraud that illegal aliens necessarily have to engage in is trivial. But it isn't. To work and pay taxes, including Social Security taxes, an alien has to have a valid social security number. Now, that number may not be his, but it has to pass muster. It's usually either a number obtained fraudulently through forgeries or is someone else's valid number. Or, these immigrants work for cash and don't pay income and FICA taxes. I worked for the Social Security Adm. and let me tell you earnings records can become ###### beyond all remedy.

And since they haven't paid into the Social Security system, when it comes time to retire, guess what?


Here's what: The same illegal aliens who've had their paychecks docked----then don't collect Social Security.

Undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits even though many contribute to the system. Many undocumented immigrants work in the formal sector and contribute to the social security trust fund. Estimates suggest that up to $12 billion per year are contributed by undocumented immigrants and their employers. Most undocumented immigrants will never draw from the system. One hypothetical exception is that if the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program lasts long enough and participants pay into the system, they would eventually be eligible for benefits, but the first payouts in this hypothetical eventuality are nearly three decades away. Other immigrants who transition to legal status can also collect benefits based on their contribution history, even if some of their contributions were made while unauthorized.
   137. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5646934)
Also, where do you live? Give me a few minutes to finish lunch and then I'll call in an airstrike.

Jason never makes this threat to me because he knows it's what I want for the area.
   138. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5646936)
Education costs. Which are massive.

Are they? But education isn't a cost - it's an investment.


Governments don't "invest." They pay costs.

* Health care costs. Which are massive.

So what are we talking about here - literally ER charges unpaid by the patient. That is the the only cost that the Government pays out. Illegal immigrants don't get Medicare or Medicaid.


Emergency rooms operate as de facto clinics for routine checkups for illegal immigrants. Let's not pretend otherwise. And that's a huge cost -- moreso when people have actual emergencies.

* Loss of tax revenue from income taxes and general fines that the rest of us have to bear. Which is massive.


Only if net outpay of services is > than net work put into the system by the worker. Which seems unlikely or the economy would collapse.


That is the case. For the amount of money a typical illegal immigrant from Mexico pulls in, he can't possibly result in a greater net benefit to the state.

Why would the economy "collapse" because of this? If you have the vast majority of people shouldering the load for a fraction of people the economy wouldn't collapse.
   139. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5646937)
Dow is getting slaughtered and Amazon stock is down. Don't have much skin in that game but man I'd be so pissed if I was a big Amazon stockholder and Trump's dumbass was lowering the price today on his threats. What a ####### joke. Obviously as a Seattlite I have some beefs with Amazon but calling the company a drain on the US is just crazy talk. Amazon is what makes America, America, FFS. It's the sort of company that almost ONLY comes out the US' entrepreneurial spirit. To punish them for having a better business model than anybody else is just crazy. It's Banana Republic esque.

Emergency rooms operate as de facto clinics for routine checkups for illegal immigrants. Let's not pretend otherwise. And that's a huge cost -- moreso when people have actual emergencies.


god you're ####### clueless. do you ever CONSIDER ANY OTHER VIEWPOINT? You think a ####### illegal ####### immigrant, in this climate, is walking into an ER for a ####### checkup? Goodness, I know most of them don't have a law degree but they have more street sense in their pinkie than you do in your entire body.
   140. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5646938)
I don't think I saw anyone but a Hispanic build our house last summer. Don't recall any big dumping scandals in the newspaper though one of our new neighbors around the corner that bought an old house did use our construction site to dump their old dish machine. Dirty white illegal immigrants.

A few years back someone dumped a semi full of old tires on our family's restaurant site. We're pretty sure we know who did it and it wasn't an illegal immigrant. Oh, and the city/county/state shrugged their shoulders and said we had to clean it up at our own expense. Fortunately the community banded together we got a lot of volunteers who donated their time and services to cleaning it up.
   141. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5646939)
Here's what: The same illegal aliens who've had their paychecks docked----then don't collect Social Security.


As well they shouldn't, since they're illegal workers.

But in any event, what you said didn't remotely respond to what Morty said. A big tranche of illegal immigrants DON'T have their paychecks docked. (And those that do have committed identity fraud.)
   142. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5646940)
I think I spent maybe 50% of my courses on literature, perhaps less. You were allowed to take literature courses in other departments (eg, a Dante course offered by the Italian department, or a Bible course in the Religion dept). There were requirements for math, science etc and plenty of room for foreign languages or whatever struck my fancy, like film.

Vassar - at the time, maybe still, who knows - was known for a batshit workload but no actual requirements other than a year of a language, which you could test out of (which I should have, and stupidly didn't, wanting to be A STUDENT OF THE WORLD, but, bad idea). I took a few electives (Astronomy, intro Econ, intro Philosophy) but it was mostly all Lit and music (which I was doubling in). I have a hard time imagining what my experience would have been like with no requirements and one major.
   143. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5646942)
EDIT: And how much of an English major's curriculum is devoted to courses in English in the UK compared to the USA. This is for BDC and Preserved Fish who have matriculated in both places.


My alma mater appears to have changed its requirements somewhat. Courses are divided into the 100s (generally, survey courses), 200s (intermediates/major intros), and 300 (advanced, generally for majors).

The English Literature Major comprises a required two-quarter survey (either English Literary Traditions (English 210-1 and English 210-2) or American Literary Traditions (English 270-1 and English 270-2)), English 300, English 397, and 9 additional literature courses:

Two 200- or 300-level courses (must be taken in the English Department; may include English 206)
Seven 300-level courses (up to one may be taken in another department or program)
At least 3 on works written before 1830
At least 3 on works written after 1830
At least 1 on American literature
At least 1 exploring Transnationalism and Textual Circulation (TTC)
At least 1 exploring Identities, Communities, and Social Practices (ICSP)


The TTC requirement was called something different, but it's basically a "minority writer within American/British culture" - I fulfilled it with an African-American poetry course that I do not recall much of. When I attended, I recall there was also a requirement for all specialties/emphasis requiring at least one course centered on prose (i.e., essays, etc), poetry, and fiction - and I am not a big poetry fan, so that knocked out both. The ICSP requirement looks new - or at least, a transformation of an old comparative literature requirement.

The three pre-/post-1830 requirements were also different arrayed/more distinct -- my recollection is that it was far more distinct, requiring something out of classics, renaissance, victorian/romantic, plus a modern requirement (where the syllabus included SBB's favorite - Toni Morrison, but also Don Delillo, etc).

The specialty/emphasis also required a national tradition - I ultimately graduated with an emphasis on British literature (comprised mainly of Victorian literature), but could have satisfied the Russian specialty, too purely on the literature level. The problem is that an emphasis/specialty in non-English literature also included a language requirement (i.e., if Russian - you had to fulfill a Russian language requirement, if Spanish writers, a Spanish requirement, Italian writers, et al) - and I'd have needed to have a course in Russian language every quarter for three years (9 quarters total). I very strongly considered it - I love Russian writers - but ultimately, just doing the general liberal arts language requirements of 5 courses of Spanish (advanced placement credits) was just easier.
   144. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5646943)
Amazon is what makes America, America, FFS.


A marginally profitable business that has been unprofitable over its career, being propped up by Wall Street?

Um ... no, that's pretty much the opposite of what "makes America."
   145. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5646944)
god you're ####### clueless. do you ever CONSIDER ANY OTHER VIEWPOINT? You think a ####### illegal ####### immigrant, in this climate, is walking into an ER for a ####### checkup?


Yes.

There's no "climate" in California. 99% of them are sanctuary cities.
   146. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5646945)
it is quite easy to stop illegal immigration--or, rather, to take a major step in stopping it

As I was saying in the thread just past, effectively to seal the border and deport the illegals already here would take a gigantic combination of increased law-enforcement, expansion of the legal system, new infrastructure, and inflation of bureaucracy – the moral (or immoral?) equivalent of war, the Manhattan Project, the space race, and any other huge endeavor you want to evoke. And it would require federal police presence at unheard-of levels, plus national-ID and federal papers-please legislation. I am not really scare-mongering here; I just think that the rightist solutions to this problem, if really embraced, would need funding that no rightist would pay for, and surveillance that more-libertarian rightists would typically reject.

There are no easy solutions here. Most liberals would prefer to regularize work: to make all workers legal. But that has problems for the right too, of course, and far greater for rightists than the problems with rewarding illegal immigration is the problem of eliminating a vast pool of really cheap labor that keeps prices down and profits up.
   147. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5646946)
The "social contract" -- since the left likes to talk about these -- is: We'll pay taxes and we'll pay your chicken #### traffic and parking fines and in return you take care of the communities; the roads; the schools; education; etc.

But what's happening instead -- particularly in California -- is that the government encourages illegal immigration and doesn't care about it. So an entire group of people gets to work without licenses and without paying taxes; they get to dump their waste on the sidewalk which causes a complete mess; they get to sell their flowers on the street and not be taxed or harassed like other businesses are; they get to drive without licenses and insurance; they get to be judgment proof.


I don't think I saw anyone but a Hispanic build our house last summer. Don't recall any big dumping scandals in the newspaper though one of our new neighbors around the corner that bought an old house did use our construction site to dump their old dish machine. Dirty white illegal immigrants.

Don't mind Ray, McCoy. He's just a little backed up with resentment and he had to get it out of his system.
   148. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5646947)
Yes.


God I'd love to see you in a "Trading Places" style show.
   149. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5646948)
Vox:

How unauthorized immigrants pay their taxes

Maria, whose name is being withheld because of her immigration status, handed a folder with tax documents from two jobs to Gonzalez. Her W-2 showed that a housecleaning company paid her $17,288 last year.

The Social Security number on the W-2 form is made up, Maria tells me, because she doesn’t have one. Her employer never asked for identification to verify it, she says. Instead, she has an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), created by the IRS in 1996 so people who aren’t allowed to work in the United States could still file taxes on any money they earned. (The IRS does not share ITIN information with immigration authorities.)

The agency doesn’t break down the number of tax returns filed this way, but in 2010, it reported that about 3 million ITIN holders paid more than $870 million in income taxes. There are currently about 12 million unauthorized immigrants living in the United States, including children and the elderly.
   150. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5646949)
You think a ####### illegal ####### immigrant, in this climate, is walking into an ER for a ####### checkup?


Not just for a checkup, but for all manner of medical services, including child delivery.
   151. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5646950)
I think from everything I've seen illegal immigrants are a mild disturbance to the absolute bottom of our American demographic (and fortunately the uneducated American as a demographic gets smaller and smaller) but a positive to the rest of the American workforce and economy.
   152. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5646954)
People of good conscience are standing up for Fox News' Laura Ingraham, who is currently swimming with dolphins and roasting marshmallows (or possibly the other way around) on a fabulous vacation.

Both here:
Bill O'Reilly: "Know this: the sponsor boycott is not some spontaneous uprising by companies. It is being directed by powerful, shadowy radical groups who want Laura Ingraham off the air."

And worldwide:
Embattled Fox News host Laura Ingraham has found some unlikely allies: Russian bots. Russian-linked Twitter accounts have rallied around the conservative talk-show host, who has come under fire for attacking the young survivors of the Parkland school shooting. According to the website Hamilton 68, which tracks the spread of Russian propaganda on Twitter, the hashtag #IstandwithLaura jumped 2,800 percent in 48 hours this weekend. On Saturday night, it was the top trending hashtag among Russian campaigners.


Maybe all those advertisers who've become dead to her will gloriously come back "in the spirit of Holy Week."
   153. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5646955)
So to expand on 149, it appears that the IRS is actively conspiring in the illegal employment of millions of people.

Good to know.
   154. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5646956)
Governments don't "invest."


This seems fundamentally incorrect to me.
   155. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5646957)
"in the spirit of Holy Week."

Holy week is over, she can go back to harassing children.
   156. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5646959)
More from the Vox story:

In the end, Maria owed $1,131 in income taxes to the state of Maryland and $775 to the federal government. She said she had some money saved up, because she knew she would have a tax bill at the end of the year from the contracting jobs. But she said she will probably get on a payment plan with the IRS.


Translation: Maria didn't pay her taxes.
   157. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5646961)
136:

Some might say that's the cost of engaging in illegality. Also, if you read all that I wrote, many pay neither income taxes or FICA and when it comes to retiring, they go on welfare.

It all goes back, however, to the bedrock act to all this: engaging in illegality. Your panacea seems to be to reward them for doing that.
   158. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5646962)
Stayed offline over the weekend; if this was covered in last week's thread I didn't see it. I know it was April 1 but, really?
@realDonaldTrump Apr 1

These big flows of people are all trying to take advantage of DACA. They want in on the act!
He *does* know that you had to be here before 2007 to be eligible for DACA, right? Apparently not.
   159. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5646963)
I love all the wild speculation/accusations being thrown around. Eventually some lefty sucker will point (again) to one of many economic studies which disprove* all this hysterical nonsense that Ray and stretchy and others are screaming about. And then in a few months we will get all this again.

And all the while GOP President Trump continues his reckless course, starting trade wars and gambling with the economy. I am now completely certain we will have a recession well before 2020. Hopefully the silver lining will be no Trump in 2021 (in the White House anyway).

* As much as any study can disprove anything.
   160. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5646964)
It would seem in this day and age that the vast majority of money being paid to illegals is getting taxed. I mean the housekeeper getting paid under the table cannot compare to the housing industry or the food service industry. Sure on one hand Babs may not be declaring her housekeeper but the vast majority of businesses out there are going to at least want a fig leaf as cover for an illegal worker.
   161. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5646965)
It all goes back, however, to the bedrock act to all this: engaging in illegality. Your panacea seems to be to reward them for doing that.


As a young man, Andy had the seminal experience of his life in seeing unjust laws resisted. In the 50 years since, it's quite clear that he's never properly internalized or contextualized those lessons. Had he, he would have easily realized, as most or all of us can from afar that his formative years had unique one-off experiences that don't generally translate in the least. But instead, he essentially sees laws as optional and, even more unfortunate, considers himself some kind of moral avatar in explaining which ones must be followed and which ones must not.

Of course, in reality he's nothing of the sort.

Most of us are able to accurately assess events and actions we took from 18-22 as we, unfortunately, get older. Andy either didn't get that gene or it was somehow surgically removed.
   162. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5646966)
Right -- so they either commit identity fraud, or don't pay taxes.

I think identity fraud is a loaded word and doesn't connote what they are doing. They are illegally using someone else's social security number. This does not hurt the person whose number they use. They do pay taxes and won't collect on the FICA taxes.

I do think that one area that illegal immigrants hurt the US is on taxes. I have stated before I would be for a US sales tax and eliminate the FICA taxes. This would hit people who don't declare income (both legal and illegal). It would also make employees cheaper over machinery, plus make imports more expensive than locally produced goods.
   163. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5646967)
I think from everything I've seen illegal immigrants are a mild disturbance to the absolute bottom of our American demographic (and fortunately the uneducated American as a demographic gets smaller and smaller) but a positive to the rest of the American workforce and economy.


This agrees with everything I have read as well. Good summary.

Governments don't "invest."


This seems fundamentally incorrect to me.


Because it is. Governments invest all the freaking time, in a whole host of ways. I am sure land-grant universities were not an investment in Ray's world, but here in the real world it sure was.

A land-grant university (also called land-grant college or land-grant institution) is an institution of higher education in the United States designated by a state to receive the benefits of the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890.

The Morrill Acts funded educational institutions by granting federally controlled land to the states for them to sell, to raise funds, to establish and endow "land-grant" colleges. The mission of these institutions as set forth in the 1862 Act is to focus on the teaching of practical agriculture, science, military science and engineering (though "without excluding... classical studies"), as a response to the industrial revolution and changing social class.[1][2] This mission was in contrast to the historic practice of higher education to focus on an abstract liberal arts curriculum. A 1994 expansion gave land grant status to several tribal colleges and universities.

Ultimately, most land-grant colleges became large public universities that today offer a full spectrum of educational opportunities. However, some land-grant colleges are private schools, including Cornell University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
   164. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5646968)
I have stated before I would be for a US sales tax and eliminate the FICA taxes. This would hit people who don't declare income (both legal and illegal). It would also make employees cheaper over machinery, plus make imports more expensive than locally produced goods.

For the music and lit majors, what is the NEGATIVE to this seemingly-great plan? (I can only assume there are negatives.)
   165. PreservedFish Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5646970)
I think that nearly every government department faces decisions like, "If we spend X million on obesity education today, it might reduce health care costs in the future by Y billion." That's an investment.
   166. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5646971)
Dow is getting slaughtered and Amazon stock is down. Don't have much skin in that game but man I'd be so pissed if I was a big Amazon stockholder and Trump's dumbass was lowering the price today on his threats. What a ####### joke. Obviously as a Seattlite I have some beefs with Amazon but calling the company a drain on the US is just crazy talk. Amazon is what makes America, America, FFS. It's the sort of company that almost ONLY comes out the US' entrepreneurial spirit. To punish them for having a better business model than anybody else is just crazy. It's Banana Republic esque.


It's especially ridiculous because the only ones who have a beef - and they haven't anymore, since Amazon started collecting sales tax about a year or so ago - are state and local governments.

The USPS nonsense? PURE nonsense... if anything, the USPS would be even further in the red without Amazon. Any beefs on federal taxation - Trump can only blame himself and the GOP given that they, um, just rewrote the tax code and did so specifically to benefit corporate taxation.

This is all nothing but Trump doing the bidding of his developer buddies, all whom are dinosaurs on their way to obsolescence as their brick and mortar malls become ghost towns.
   167. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5646972)
As I was saying in the thread just past, effectively to seal the border and deport the illegals already here would take a gigantic combination of increased law-enforcement, expansion of the legal system, new infrastructure, and inflation of bureaucracy – the moral (or immoral?) equivalent of war, the Manhattan Project, the space race, and any other huge endeavor you want to evoke. And it would require federal police presence at unheard-of levels, plus national-ID and federal papers-please legislation. I am not really scare-mongering here; I just think that the rightist solutions to this problem, if really embraced, would need funding that no rightist would pay for, and surveillance that more-libertarian rightists would typically reject.

I thought I had explained how we can deal with this very simply. Moreover, once it goes into effect and prospective illegals see they won't get jobs, then maybe they'll stop coming. In fact, isn't the hard line, as it is now, having that effect? It kind of takes care of itself that way. No jobs, no illegal influx. That means the regulatory system would constrict, wouldn't it?
   168. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5646975)
I have stated before I would be for a US sales tax and eliminate the FICA taxes. This would hit people who don't declare income (both legal and illegal). It would also make employees cheaper over machinery, plus make imports more expensive than locally produced goods.

For the music and lit majors, what is the NEGATIVE to this seemingly-great plan? (I can only assume there are negatives.)


Sales taxes are inherently regressive in nature. If you want to create a system of taxation that hurts middle and lower income earners the most - transition federal taxation away from income and towards sales and use taxes. The tax burden will get awfully lopsided awfully quick.
   169. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5646977)
I thought I had explained how we can deal with this very simply. Moreover, once it goes into effect and prospective illegals see they won't get jobs, then maybe they'll stop coming. In fact, isn't the hard line, as it is now, having that effect? It kind of takes care of itself that way. No jobs, no illegal influx. That means the regulatory system would constrict, wouldn't it?

How'd the Volstead Act work out?
   170. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5646978)
I thought I had explained how we can deal with this very simply

But Morty, this resembles the E-Verify/"self-deportation" argument that was also supposed to simply solve the problem. You've worked in bureaucracy – are bureaucratic solutions ever simple?
   171. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5646979)
Don't mind Ray, McCoy. He's just a little backed up with resentment and he had to get it out of his system.


That's your standard answer. You never consider the other side of the argument. All you do is chalk opposing views up to racism and go on your merry way. Then when Trump gets elected you're blindsided and you hit the pavement hard.

**WHY** Trump was successful demonizing Andy's Heroes is something the left should be considering if they want to unseat him in 2020.

And what I'm offering as an answer is that resentment has built up against these groups because Democrats and the elites in the Republican Party -- and the local governments who operate as sanctuaries and the like -- elevate their interests above those of taxpaying citizens.

I don't care if you don't listen to me. I'm not one who lost his ####### #### because Trump got elected. But you are, so perhaps you should stop to re-evaluate. I don't believe for a second that you have that in you, though.
   172. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5646981)
Sales taxes are inherently regressive in nature. If you want to create a system of taxation that hurts middle and lower income earners the most - transition federal taxation away from income and towards sales and use taxes. The tax burden will get awfully lopsided awfully quick.

Well, you can also put in a higher standard deduction for certain income brackets to offset this.
   173. DavidFoss Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5646983)
I have stated before I would be for a US sales tax and eliminate the FICA taxes. This would hit people who don't declare income (both legal and illegal). It would also make employees cheaper over machinery, plus make imports more expensive than locally produced goods.
..
For the music and lit majors, what is the NEGATIVE to this seemingly-great plan? (I can only assume there are negatives.)

Does the math work out? How high does the sales tax have to be to balance removing the FICA tax? FICA is already mildly regressive because it "maxes out", but sales taxes are much more regressive. The poor spend a higher proportion of their income.

The devil is in the details. National Sales Tax, a "flat tax", whatever "9-9-9" was, a "VAT" for america. They all sound appealing at first blush but they when they work out the math people lose interest.

Edit -- coke to Zonk.
   174. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5646984)
I have stated before I would be for a US sales tax and eliminate the FICA taxes. This would hit people who don't declare income (both legal and illegal). It would also make employees cheaper over machinery, plus make imports more expensive than locally produced goods.

For the music and lit majors, what is the NEGATIVE to this seemingly-great plan? (I can only assume there are negatives.)


Sales taxes are inherently regressive in nature. If you want to create a system of taxation that hurts middle and lower income earners the most - transition federal taxation away from income and towards sales and use taxes. The tax burden will get awfully lopsided awfully quick.


But we are taking away a regressive tax, so net neutral for workers. The people this hurts are unemployed and retirees. Adjustments would need to be made for them.
   175. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5646985)
For the music and lit majors, what is the NEGATIVE to this seemingly-great plan? (I can only assume there are negatives.)


Spending all of two seconds on it (and being decades away from economics grad school) ... the normal downsides to sales taxes are how amazingly regressive they are. The poor spend much more of their income on buying things than do the rich. Obviously replacing FICA with sales taxes does alleviate some of that, but I don't think it is all of it (I could easily be wrong on that).

However, the big negative (or at least impact) that I can see is regarding those who are on fixed income, especially seniors. Mostly they don't pay FICA any more but they sure do buy stuff and so you are reducing their buying power, potentially at great political cost. Seniors vote and don't like that sort of policy much, at least historically.

EDIT: Slow, cokes as desired up thread.
   176. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5646986)
Then when Trump gets elected you're blindsided and you hit the pavement hard.

You mean like you and everyone else on this planet? Leading up to the election you thought your boy was going to lose and you disappeared for a good long while.

After McCain lost GOPers were "blindsided". After Romney lost GOPers were "blindsided". Very very few people on this site and throughout the world look at an issue through any lens other than their own.
   177. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5646987)
I think that nearly every government department faces decisions like, "If we spend X million on obesity education today, it might reduce health care costs in the future by Y billion." That's an investment.

The investment doesn't always come back to the Treasury directly, but often filters through the economy … this is basic US history: the National Road, the Erie Canal, ultimately the Post Office itself. They are subsidized, but they allow business to flourish and in the long run the government's revenue goes up. Of course there are always people who resist these "internal improvements" because gosh darn it, the marketplace would provide roads and canals and postal service privately if it were really needed. Which is sort of true, but has never quite worked out in practice as well as public-sector solutions, precisely because private investment demands such specific and direct ROI.
   178. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5646988)
Does the math work out? How high does the sales tax have to be to balance removing the FICA tax?

The numbers I have read is around 12-15%.
   179. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5646991)
Then when Trump gets elected you're blindsided and you hit the pavement hard.


From the newly discovered first draft of "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues."
   180. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5646992)
The numbers I have read is around 12-15%.

So like DC and NoVA then.
   181. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5646993)
No, I didn't. I said "legal worker," which includes long-established US citizens.


You're right, you did. Mea culpa.
   182. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5646996)
And what I'm offering as an answer is that resentment has built up against these groups because Democrats and the elites in the Republican Party -- and the local governments who operate as sanctuaries and the like -- elevate their interests above those of taxpaying citizens.


Ummm.... except most of the "local governments" are leaning pretty heavily on sales and use taxes - which ARE being paid by everyone. Even the property tax arguments don't really wash, since property taxes are being paid by rental buildings, too, and factored into rents.

And lets not forget with VERY few exceptions (Detroit, maybe a few other cities) - there is hardly a metropolis in the country that isn't subsidizing the state and federal kitties... I know Chicago was providing about 2/3 of Illinois state revenue, but getting just over 1/3 of state disbursements. I presume NYC, LA, SF, et al are similar.

This is typical of the Rays of the world - making broad statements about how revenue/expenditures work, but ignoring the practical realities of how the fabric of local, state, and federal taxation/spending actually play out.
   183. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 02, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5646997)
The "social contract" -- since the left likes to talk about these -- is: We'll pay taxes and we'll pay your chicken #### traffic and parking fines and in return you take care of the communities; the roads; the schools; education; etc.

But what's happening instead -- particularly in California -- is that the government encourages illegal immigration and doesn't care about it. So an entire group of people gets to work without licenses and without paying taxes; they get to dump their waste on the sidewalk which causes a complete mess; they get to sell their flowers on the street and not be taxed or harassed like other businesses are; they get to drive without licenses and insurance; they get to be judgment proof.

The same happens with homeless people in California. It used to be a result of mental illness or drug use. Now there's a third cause: it's a lifestyle choice. And so you have homeless encampments lining the streets for long distances; not contributing to society because they've checked out. It creates an eye sore. And the government allows it and even goes so far as to deify homeless people.

And so the social contract has broken down. CA residents pay their taxes and pay their fines and in return the government is NOT doing anything about the problems caused by illegal immigration or the eye sores caused by homeless people. And so the question becomes, why pay your taxes and your fines, which are levied selectively, when the government isn't holding up its end of the social contract at all? Instead the government elevates the interests of non-citizens and non-taxpayers over the interests of taxpayers. Because the government wants votes, and wants to virtue signal, and knows that it can't get money out of illegal immigrants or out of homeless people -- so the government lets them slide.

The system is one big snafu.

Today's lectures from the guy in a literal Trump Tower are surprisingly short on evidence. Let's instead focus on the feelings of the Very Serious RDP.
   184. Laser Man Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5647000)
A marginally profitable business that has been unprofitable over its career, being propped up by Wall Street?
This is false. It has not been unprofitable over its career. Amazon had profits of $1.86 Billion in the 4th Quarter of 2017, and has now had 11 straight profitable quarters. Over it's entire history, it has made profits of at least $8 Billion.
   185. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5647001)
You're right, you did. Mea culpa.


No worries; I actually confused you with Mouse, at whom the "D student" remark was aimed. My bad.
   186. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5647002)
it appears that the IRS is actively conspiring in the illegal employment of millions of people.


I believe it's pronounced Trump's IRS. Take your beef up with him.
   187. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5647003)
But Morty, this resembles the E-Verify/"self-deportation" argument that was also supposed to simply solve the problem. You've worked in bureaucracy – are bureaucratic solutions ever simple?

First, yes, you need the will to do it. But it’s simple. You, an illegal immigrant, present your ss card to the prospective employer. He verifies it’s a valid number and that it is yours (the number and name you give matches). Now, after that, what we do is another problem. But, it seems to me, if you stop hiring them, the problem will take care of itself in the long run. More sooner than later. As is happening now, right? But, it starts at detecting illegal use of ss numbers that are either fake or belong to someone else. And not hiring those people. What’s hard and complicated about that?
   188. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5647004)
What’s hard and complicated about that?

The actual follow through?
   189. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5647005)
Dow is getting slaughtered and Amazon stock is down. Don't have much skin in that game but man I'd be so pissed if I was a big Amazon stockholder and Trump's dumbass was lowering the price today on his threats. What a ####### joke. Obviously as a Seattlite I have some beefs with Amazon but calling the company a drain on the US is just crazy talk. Amazon is what makes America, America, FFS. It's the sort of company that almost ONLY comes out the US' entrepreneurial spirit. To punish them for having a better business model than anybody else is just crazy. It's Banana Republic esque.

The Republican supporters here have so far refused to engage on this issue. The party of business and serious people.
   190. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5647006)
He *does* know that you had to be here before 2007 to be eligible for DACA, right? Apparently not.


What Trump doesn't know would overload the core memory of the main computer of the Enterprise D.
   191. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5647007)
Yet somehow, despite being such a disaster, if California were an independent country - it would boast the world's 6th largest GDP.... and if you do the federal tax/state disbursement numbers - overall CA resident taxation would likely drop if California no longer fed any tax dollars into uncle sam.

I suppose you'd have to work out what share of the US debt an independent CA takes on - plus, they'd need a military... but it's hard to see where the fiscal math wouldn't work out better for California as an independent country.

For all the crapola about urban elites, sanctuary cities, blahblahblah.... it's all BS -- it's the deep south, appalachia, rural rust belt, and plains that are getting subsidized... not the other way around.
   192. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5647008)
Don't mind Ray, McCoy. He's just a little backed up with resentment and he had to get it out of his system.

That's your standard answer. You never consider the other side of the argument. All you do is chalk opposing views up to racism and go on your merry way. Then when Trump gets elected you're blindsided and you hit the pavement hard.

**WHY** Trump was successful demonizing Andy's Heroes is something the left should be considering if they want to unseat him in 2020.

And what I'm offering as an answer is that resentment has built up against these groups because Democrats and the elites in the Republican Party -- and the local governments who operate as sanctuaries and the like -- elevate their interests above those of taxpaying citizens.


You remind me of that classic Dana Carvey SNL skit on Bush I, where he addresses Congress and every other sentence is "OPERATION DESERT STORM!". Just as 2003 wasn't a replay of 1991, 2018 and 2020 aren't going to be clones of 2016.

But again, you've put your money where your mouth is, so I respect that.
   193. Tom T Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5647009)
No, I didn't. I said "legal worker," which includes long-established US citizens.


And it also includes individuals here on a work visa or a green card, many of whom ship quite a large percentage of their income back home to the rest of their families. Many of our international faculty send a notable chunk of their salaries back home to help other family members, etc. Heck, I'd imagine that many (most, even?) of the international players in baseball (and other professional sports) do this.

As such, I believe a reasonable hypothesis would be that an examination of the total (NOT per capita) dollars "exported" in this sense would find that there is not a lot of difference between legal workers and illegal workers, if only because the average income of members of the former almost certainly outweighs the average income of members of the latter.
   194. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5647010)
And all this bluster against illegal immigration by Trump and his supporters is nothing more than virtue signaling, as getting rid of illegals would crash the economies of most of the states that voted for Trump. Thus, they have no real desire to follow through. It's a mere talking point, like repeal and replace Obamacare. when push came to shove, they didn't do that either.
   195. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5647011)
Why would California need a military? Presumably if they are their own country it is because the US allowed and if that is so there is virtually no need for a standing army any time soon.
   196. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5647012)
What’s hard and complicated about that?

The actual follow through?

Well, the beauty is, we'll know where the problem is and we'll have to quit making #### out so we can keep pointlessly bellyaching about the problem.

The problem is two-fold: the illegal immigrant and the employer who hires him and doesn't want to go through pains to vet him because he likes being able to pay him less.

Once you acknowledge that, you either do something effective about it or you shut up and stop your attitudinizing, because, really, you don't care.
   197. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5647013)
Amazon is what makes America, America, FFS. It's the sort of company that almost ONLY comes out the US' entrepreneurial spirit

Amazon is strongly reminiscent of Sears & Roebuck, a little over a century ago – another huge retail network that became symbiotic with the postal service. I don't know history well enough to know whether there were those (like Trump today) who thought it was a drain on the Post Office.
   198. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5647014)
I thought I had explained how we can deal with this very simply. Moreover, once it goes into effect and prospective illegals see they won't get jobs, then maybe they'll stop coming. In fact, isn't the hard line, as it is now, having that effect? It kind of takes care of itself that way. No jobs, no illegal influx. That means the regulatory system would constrict, wouldn't it?


Which, as I pointed out, would crash the economies of most red states, which is why it won't, and never will be done.
   199. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5647015)
Why would California need a military? Presumably if they are their own country it is because the US allowed and if that is so there is virtually no need for a standing army any time soon.


Well, any independent nation is going to have some kind of military/national defense force... Of course, an independent California need not spend half its budget on a military. Though, I imagine after a few years of the US missing California's enormous wealth (and FTR- that GDP number isn't just silicon valley... CA also leads the US in manufacturing and agricultural output) - they'd probably face the prospect of a US "Ooops, that was a mistake - we need to invade to take California back because it turns out we were horribly mistaken".
   200. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5647016)
Today's lectures from the guy in a literal Trump Tower

Where according to cityrealty.com, there's a 1 bedroom condo available for $1.35 million, and a 1 bedroom rental for $4,595. It's also got some notable features:

Spectacular Hudson River views
Health club with swimming pool
Doorman
Concierge
Not too far from express subway station
Not too far from Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts
Garage
Sidewalk landscaping

No mention of squeegee hustlers, though, so he might have to clean his own windshields.
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