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Monday, April 02, 2018

OTP 2018 Apr 2: This Opening Day, keep baseball pure—and keep the politics out of it

In a year when American culture seems to be dissolving before our very eyes in the shadow of a political discourse that often seems as turbid as it is abhorrent, there’s always baseball.

I grew up the daughter of a man who loved baseball; over the years my Mom learned to enjoy it just as much. My dad played it, listened to it, watched it, collected cards of players he admired. I can’t even pinpoint my first baseball experience, such is the way the entirety of the game enveloped around and melded into my childhood memories.

 

I grew up in Minnesota and thus cheered ardently for the Twins. I don’t hear about them much anymore; they haven’t had too many consecutive stellar seasons as of late, but they won the World Series twice when I was a kid—1987 and 1991—and we watched home games at the Metrodome (a huge dome with a cover that was not retractable because, hello, Minnesota). Before my brother was born, the three of us went to games—my Dad reminded me we could buy tickets in left field for $5 and we’d bring in our own bags of peanuts (in the shells of course!) and peanut M & M’s.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

 

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:57 AM | 1715 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: good old days, opening day, politics, twins

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   201. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5647017)
Why would California need a military?

They would have to do something with those bases. The San Diego economy would crater without the Navy.
   202. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5647018)
Don't mind Ray, McCoy. He's just a little backed up with resentment and he had to get it out of his system.

That's your standard answer. You never consider the other side of the argument. All you do is chalk opposing views up to racism and go on your merry way. Then when Trump gets elected you're blindsided and you hit the pavement hard.

**WHY** Trump was successful demonizing Andy's Heroes is something the left should be considering if they want to unseat him in 2020.

And what I'm offering as an answer is that resentment has built up against these groups because Democrats and the elites in the Republican Party -- and the local governments who operate as sanctuaries and the like -- elevate their interests above those of taxpaying citizens.

You remind me of that classic Dana Carvey SNL skit on Bush I, where he addresses Congress and every other sentence is "OPERATION DESERT STORM!". Just as 2003 wasn't a replay of 1991, 2018 and 2020 aren't going to be clones of 2016.

But again, you've put your money where your mouth is, so I respect that.


Beautifully predictable -- and predicted -- answer.
   203. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5647019)
Which, as I pointed out, would crash the economies of most red states, which is why it won't, and never will be done.

Just think about what that says, both about living a lie and about the necessity of doing your citizens down. And we wonder why people, our people, are pissed.
   204. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5647021)
Not too far from express subway station

I laughed. (Ray might, too.)
   205. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5647022)
Zonk:
This [Amazon attacking] is all nothing but Trump doing the bidding of his developer buddies, all whom are dinosaurs on their way to obsolescence as their brick and mortar malls become ghost towns.


Well, not nothing but. Trump also hates Bezos' Washington Post for relentlessly reporting what Trump does, says and is.
   206. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5647023)
Just think about what that says, both about living a lie and about the necessity of doing your citizens down. And we wonder why people, our people, are pissed.


Oh, I agree. I'm pissed there is never any serious discussions of real solutions. The D mantra of " let them all stay unharrased" is untenable. The R mantra of "deport them all and seal the border" is a pipe dream even they don't believe.
   207. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5647027)
Today's lectures from the guy in a literal Trump Tower

Where according to cityrealty.com, there's a 1 bedroom condo available for $1.35 million, and a 1 bedroom rental for $4,595.
Don't forget Ray is our local expert on the dumpster-dodging proclivities of illegal immigrant home remodelers throughout America, so attuned is he to every pulse and cranny of this great nation.
   208. BDC Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5647028)
Not too far from express subway station
Not too far from Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts


Speaking of such amenities, I got a direct-mail ad the other day for a 1/8 share in a small apartment in a posh Manhattan "club" near Lincoln Center – the idea being that I would buy that share for $125K or whatever, plus maintenance etc., and then be able to stay there and go to the opera and ride the subway up and down whenever I wanted, or rather whenever the other seven owners didn't. I Googled things like it (for a laugh, I would never buy such a thing) and discovered that this was similar to scams that various hotels have run over the years: buy a share and then good luck trying to book your stay, because the scammers are busy renting your room out at hotel rates and fitting you in only on the off-chance the place would go empty otherwise.
   209. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5647031)
I'm pissed there is never any serious discussions of real solutions.


Well there are discussions, but they all naturally revolve around making hiring and employing illegals, illegal and since no one seems to want to enforce that part the whole thing runs aground.

If the job market weren't open to illegal immigrants -- truly not open -- they wouldn't bother coming here. The key to solving the problem lies in that fact.
   210. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5647032)
Which, as I pointed out, would crash the economies of most red states, which is why it won't, and never will be done.

I don't think it will crash the economies of the various states. It will change them, probably gradually but it won't be drastic and happen quickly.
   211. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5647033)
They would have to do something with those bases. The San Diego economy would crater without the Navy.

They could lease those bases to the US Military.
   212. DavidFoss Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5647034)
Well, not nothing but. Trump also hates Bezos' Washington Post for relentlessly reporting what Trump does, says and is.

Interestingly, liberals hate Walmart for sucking the life out of small town main streets a decade or two ago.
   213. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5647035)
Interestingly, liberals hate Walmart for sucking the life out of small town main streets a decade or two ago.

I can't really say I'm all gung-ho on Amazon here, but it is difficult to argue that small town main streets are EVER coming back. I'm pretty sure that those liberal arguments against Wal-Mart gained a lot of traction with the onset of the internet but BEFORE the onset of maximum internet commerce.
   214. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5647036)
Just think about what that says, both about living a lie and about the necessity of doing your citizens down. And we wonder why people, our people, are pissed.


What it says is that they've bought a lot of demagogic BS hook, line, and sinker. The US economic sector that has most benefited from globalization/free trade is agriculture. To the extent its hurt US manufacturing, that's a drop in the bucket compared to what automation has wrought - forget NAFTA, you can look at the man hours per ton of steel and see drops of 90%+. And the US was actually setting records for coal production as recently as 2010 -- but with 1/10th the manpower.... more than a million people were employed in coal mining in the 1920s (when output was about 600 million tons) - when the US set a record for coal production (about 1.1 billion tons), that number was barely 100K. And as for why US coal production fell off? It's because China stopped buying US coal.

People have every right to be pissed about changing fortunes... but I draw the line at directing that pissed towards ludicrous phantoms rather than the actual realities.
   215. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5647039)
If the job market weren't open to illegal immigrants -- truly not open -- they wouldn't bother coming here. The key to solving the problem lies in that fact.

Well, they would come here as legal workers because a true fix is one that requires a good amount of immigrants.
   216. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5647040)

I can't really say I'm all gung-ho on Amazon here, but it is difficult to argue that small town main streets are EVER coming back. I'm pretty sure that those liberal arguments against Wal-Mart gained a lot of traction with the onset of the internet but BEFORE the onset of maximum internet commerce.


Small town main streets are coming back. They are just coming back differently. They are chock full of service industry businesses instead of staple goods retail.
   217. Ray (CTL) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5647042)
Well there are discussions, but they all naturally revolve around making hiring and employing illegals, illegal and since no one seems to want to enforce that part the whole thing runs aground.


Illegal immigrants are above the law. They break the law to get into the country but of course to note that would be racist, so that goes unheralded. They don't have to pay income taxes. They don't have to get car insurance or registration. They don't have to pay traffic tickets or parking tickets. They're allowed to work off the books.

Citizens don't get these special accommodations, but illegal immigrants do.

That's what has built up the resentment that the hard right is displaying.
   218. bunyon Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5647043)
Which, as I pointed out, would crash the economies of most red states, which is why it won't, and never will be done.

I don't think it will crash the economies of the various states. It will change them, probably gradually but it won't be drastic and happen quickly.


Ag intensive states would crash, for certain, if Trump could magically snap his tiny fingers and send everyone in the USA illegally back to their country of origin. We would all also pay a lot more for food as there would be a lot less of it for sale. Less obvious effects would be that we'd all have to learn how to cut grass again and new houses wouldn't have roofs.

Now, if we gradually bring in true enforcement against illegal workers, sure, it wouldn't have an effect.

But, right now, unemployment is low and the jobs illegal immigrants do are not paid sufficiently to live on well. Hardly anyone would quit a legal job to go work one of the jobs an illegal immigrant currently works.

Moreover, to truly deter them from coming, you basically have to make life worse here than there for them. That's tough to pull off without ruining the lives of citizens and legal residents.
   219. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5647044)
They don't have to? Seems an odd of a way to phrase that. Your description can basically be applied to anyone who wishes to break the law. Ray, you don't have to get license or insurance. You don't have to pay income taxes either. You don't have to pay tickets and can work off the books as well.
   220. bunyon Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5647047)
Well, they would come here as legal workers because a true fix is one that requires a good amount of immigrants.

Cool, so what's the problem? Let's just declare them legal and be done with it?

Oh, wait, the people hiring them don't want that? Why?
   221. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5647049)
Ag intensive states would crash, for certain, if Trump could magically snap his tiny fingers and send everyone in the USA illegally back to their country of origin. We would all also pay a lot more for food as there would be a lot less of it for sale. Less obvious effects would be that we'd all have to learn how to cut grass again and new houses wouldn't have roofs.

We've had various price shocks to agricultural goods throughout the years and it hasn't crashed economies. Things would change. Farmers would probably rip up human labor intensive products for goods that can be done easily by machinery. Overseas goods would come in. We'd develop machinery that could replicate the abilities of human harvesting, we'd alter our goods so that machine harvesting was more viable. So on and so on.

What we wouldn't do is simply do nothing and let the economies crash. Human beings don't do that.
   222. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5647052)
Cool, so what's the problem? Let's just declare them legal and be done with it?


Doesn't work, because they're tax cheats, too. You going to give them amnesty for that as well?

Also doesn't work because many of them wouldn't be hired at actual market wages. Employment in their "sector" is artificially high.
   223. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5647053)
We've had various price shocks to agricultural goods throughout the years and it hasn't crashed economies. Things would change. Farmers would probably rip up human labor intensive products for goods that can be done easily by machinery. Overseas goods would come in. We'd develop machinery that could replicate the abilities of human harvesting, we'd alter our goods so that machine harvesting was more viable. So on and so on.

What we wouldn't do is simply do nothing and let the economies crash. Human beings don't do that.


So, in order to eliminate illegal immigrants and not crash the economy, we also need to eliminate the jobs illegal immigrants do through automation and importation*. So tell us again how illegal immigrants harm Americans?

* And don't believe for a second that the innovation in automation will stop at eliminating only jobs that illegal immigrants do.
   224. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5647054)
Illegal immigrants are above the law. They break the law to get into the country but of course to note that would be racist, so that goes unheralded. They don't have to pay income taxes. They don't have to get car insurance or registration. They don't have to pay traffic tickets or parking tickets. They're allowed to work off the books.

Citizens don't get these special accommodations, but illegal immigrants do.


Is Ray trying to set a record for dumbassery?

"Citizens" get allow these same "special accommodations" as illegal immigrants... and the remedies are likewise the same.

I mean, once upon a time, I was no stranger to parking tickets (and I dabble in scofflawery) - and the remediation by the locale isn't going after the individual... they go after your car... and as someone who has spent a few trips to the impound/ticket office to get a boot removed, there are not separate lines or procedures for citizens/non-citizens.

I can likewise speak as someone who got a relatively new car dinged up by a uninsured motorist - I suppose I cannot vouch for his citizenship, but based on pigment and mastery (or lack thereof) of the English language - I'm fairly sure he was native born... My "recourse" - such as it was - was to let my insurance company deal with it... and if I wanted to pursue going after him for the deductible, I'd have had the same recourse if he were illegal (and it would have been the same waste of money).

This is a really, really dumb argument from top to bottom.
   225. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5647055)
Just think about what that says, both about living a lie and about the necessity of doing your citizens down. And we wonder why people, our people, are pissed.

What it says is that they've bought a lot of demagogic BS hook, line, and sinker. The US economic sector that has most benefited from globalization/free trade is agriculture.

Speaking of that.....

Will Trump Crash the Farm Economy?
KNOXVILLE, Iowa — Donald Trump won over 60 percent of the 2016 vote in rural Iowa, where I live, and I haven’t heard much concern from Republicans over the president’s alleged infidelities with a porn actress, his ties to Russia or Jared Kushner’s real estate shenanigans....

But people here — Republicans and Democrats alike — are paying great attention to what President Trump is doing economically, especially since he started in on tariffs. We have a strong manufacturing base in our county; when tariffs on aluminum and steel were announced, local manufacturing leaders tried to be diplomatic, praising the Trump tax cuts but saying the steel and aluminum tariffs would hurt their businesses by driving costs up.

One smaller manufacturer — a Trump voter — told me that his costs to produce his product nearly doubled overnight, and that his business has already been hurt by the tariffs. Prices didn’t rise only after the tariffs were announced; they started rising when Mr. Trump floated the idea.

But it’s the farm economy that rural Iowans are paying particular attention to. When the president first proposed a 20 percent import tax on Mexico to pay for his wall, Iowans objected: Mexico is our second-largest export partner after Canada....

Most recently, when Mr. Trump imposed $60 billion in tariffs and sanctions against China, the Iowa Soybean Association said his action “poses an immediate and grave threat to their industry and Iowa agriculture.”

Senator Joni Ernst and Iowa’s agriculture secretary, Mike Naig, both say the tariffs will hurt Iowans, and Mr. Naig says we need to expand markets, not shrink them. Senator Chuck Grassley said something similar, on Fox News: “Tariffs do not put America first — low barriers and expanded access do.”

China has already responded with its own tariff on pork, which will have a dire impact on Iowa. Iowa is the nation’s largest pork producer, producing three times as much pork as the next-highest state....

------------------------------------------------------------------
If the job market weren't open to illegal immigrants -- truly not open -- they wouldn't bother coming here. The key to solving the problem lies in that fact.

Well, they would come here as legal workers because a true fix is one that requires a good amount of immigrants.

Yeah, it'd be one thing if the folks who were howling about illegal immigrants would be calling for raising the quotas for legal immigration, but instead they parrot FAIR and Trump's thoughts that even legal immigration should be drastically cut. It's been obvious from the start that this is more about culture than it is about economics.
   226. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: April 02, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5647056)
Ag states would absolutely crash in the "Trump snaps his fingers" scenario. Something like half of all US ag workers (estimates are all over the place, but half is in the ballpark) are illegals. There are already problems getting enough labor even with all of the illegal workers. If they disappeared overnight the industry would collapse.

Get rid of them over a number of years and you could make some necessary changes. Food prices would go up, in some instances by a whole lot, but the industry could adapt.
   227. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5647058)
There are already problems getting enough labor even with all of the illegal workers.


Because wages are too low. Raise them and the problem goes away. The Miami Marlins and Tampa Bay Rays have problems getting enough quality labor, too.

If they disappeared overnight the industry would collapse.


I'm quite sure a scouring of the archives would find people saying the same thing about the antebellum Southern cotton economy, too.
   228. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5647061)
Ag states would absolutely crash in the "Trump snaps his fingers" scenario.

I knew the discussion would eventually turn to Infinity War.
   229. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5647063)
I posted it before, but this from more than a year ago examines what happened when a prior administration - the Kennedy administration, FWIW - tried to change migrant laws.

Long story short?

Farms just quickly changed crops to those that could harvested in a more automated fashion and the areas where this had the biggest impact actually lagged non-agricultural areas in wage growth.

But don't let an actual historical precedent with real data dissuade you from your wishcasting.
   230. zenbitz Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5647065)
Governments don't "invest." They pay costs.


When you pay into your 401K or equivalent every month, is it a cost? What about social security? Look, I am not saying that it we don't all pay for public education -- we do. But the extra juice we pay to educate illegal immigrants is not really a big deal IF you feel that educating people - no matter where they were born - is actually a society priority. Furthermore, at least in CA (which is a fantastic example as we have more than our share of illegal immigrants), public schools receive funding from three sources: the state (57%), property taxes and other local sources (29%), and the federal government (14%).

Illegal immigrants pay rent. Rent is collected by property owners, who pay taxes. So they pay at least 57%. "Local Sources" is almost certainly not local income taxes so that's probably paid by sales taxes and fines etc. Oooh but that 14% FED DOES TAKE A BITE.


Emergency rooms operate as de facto clinics for routine checkups for illegal immigrants.


Yeah, that's what I said.

Let's not pretend otherwise. And that's a huge cost


How huge? And - once again - society paying for the health of it's productive workers is *good* for the economy, not bad.

For the amount of money a typical illegal immigrant from Mexico pulls in, he can't possibly result in a greater net benefit to the state.


As many studies have shown, at least one posted here, this has never been shown to be the case.

   231. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5647067)
Pardon an off topic post, but my wife has a long SF layover tomorrow and wants to go to the Giants game. Anyone here have a ticket hookup? StubHub tickets are outrageous.
   232. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5647071)
So FancyPants, which party will get your vote in the next election...?

I have a STEM PhD, so the LibDems, duh.

Well I only have a lowly MSc, but same pretty much. Though it's a flawed question, since we don't really vote for parties, we don't vote directly for the PM, but vote for local MPs.

So for me, it will in large part depend on who my local candidates turn out to be. Though the only 2 times I have voted were for a LibDem candidate.
But there are no great choices. The Tories have done their best to run the country into the ground, pretty much across the board. Economically, domestic, foreign policy. They have been awful at all of them. Labour are horrible in other ways. So meh.
   233. zenbitz Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5647072)
@231 Tomorrow is opening day. Why do you hate free markets?

You can get a (bad) seat Wed or Monday for <$10. This weekend Dodgers are in town so those are pricey as well.

   234. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5647073)
@231 Tomorrow is opening day. Why do you hate free markets?


Did not realize that, though I should have. Thanks for the 2X4 up the head. She'll try another time.
   235. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5647074)
EDIT: And how much of an English major's curriculum is devoted to courses in English in the UK compared to the USA. This is for BDC and Preserved Fish who have matriculated in both places.

No one asked about Canada, but looking it up, our BA English degree requires:

45 Credit Hours in English
27 Credit Hours in General Arts Requirements
48 Credit Hours Elective

So 37.5%

I was surprised when I was teaching in the UK at how specialized their degrees are. I don't think there were any non-history majors in my classes. And none of the students seemed to be taking anything but history classes. It seems to be much more focused there - if you're reading History that's what you focus on. In Canada (and the US I assume?), things are a lot more inter-disciplinary.

I am like pages behind as always. But some points.

Universities in the UK don't have majors in the way the US does. You apply for a degree program. And as part of that, you will some key modules that are mandatory, and a few that are elective. But typically they are all within the same school within the university, and from an approved set of modules. Any course you do should be relevant to the degree program you are taking.
   236. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5647075)
156

Translation: Maria didn't pay her taxes.


Hey, she has something in common with the President!
   237. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5647077)
Best stock market president ever - A measure of stock-market panic is at its highest in 8 weeks as Wall Street's downturn gathers

A selloff in Monday afternoon trade reached levels not see since early February by one measure. The Arms index is was at its highest since on the NYSE hit around 2.6, approaching its highest level since Feb. 5, when the markets saw another sharp descent, according to FactSet data. The Arms index is a volume-weighted measure of market breadth, that tends to rise when the broader market falls, as the intensity of the selling in declining stocks is usually greater than the intensity of buying in rising stocks, was at 2.621 on the NYSE. Levels above 2.000 are considered panicky.


Note: I think it dumb to use the markets to measure Presidential performance, but others set the bar, not me.
   238. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5647078)
FWIW, Misirlou - texted a buddy who's got season tix in SF, but as Zenbitz said... home opener - and he's using his... His advice on scrounging up a single was not so good either (Stubhub).

That said, as someone who used to do a lot of 'last minute' tix on stubhub - it's always worth checking about 90 minutes before 1st pitch... I think SH still cuts off sales an hour before gametime, but I've gotten some real bargains by waiting. A day+ out - the prices don't move much - but especially for a single, you'll see prices fall pretty rapidly during the last hour of Stubhub sales.... like 50% or more - especially for single seats - as cutoff time approaches. Be prepared to jump quickly - I don't think I'm the only one who tries to work the market in such a fashion - but if you're willing to put in the 20 minutes of "refresh... refresh... refresh" when time starts running out, it's doable.
   239. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5647079)
FWIW, Misirlou - texted a buddy who's got season tix in SF, but as Zenbitz said... home opener - and he's using his... His advice on scrounging up a single was not so good either (Stubhub).

That said, as someone who used to do a lot of 'last minute' tix on stubhub - it's always worth checking about 90 minutes before 1st pitch... I think SH still cuts off sales an hour before gametime, but I've gotten some real bargains by waiting. A day+ out - the prices don't move much - but especially for a single, you'll see prices fall pretty rapidly during the last hour of Stubhub sales.... like 50% or more - especially for single seats - as cutoff time approaches. Be prepared to jump quickly - I don't think I'm the only one who tries to work the market in such a fashion - but if you're willing to put in the 20 minutes of "refresh... refresh... refresh" when time starts running out, it's doable.


Thanks. I think she's going to take a pass this time.

edit; good tip on last minute Stub Hub bargain shopping
   240. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5647080)
Funny, I just put some feelers out on Giants tickets (not thru Stub Hub).
   241. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5647082)
Funny, I just put some feelers out on Giants tickets (not thru Stub Hub).


San Franciso is west of Cleveland you know...
   242. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5647084)
Unless something has changed recently, the Market's down about 800. No update on the VIX.
   243. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5647085)
Funny, I just put some feelers out on Giants tickets (not thru Stub Hub).


Careful, you could get in trouble for that. Has the Weinstein story not taught you anything?
   244. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5647087)
VIX up 23%. S&P down 3%
   245. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5647088)
EDIT: I'm not sure about my numbers, so deleted.
   246. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5647089)
San Franciso is west of Cleveland you know...


In my business, you have to know people.
   247. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5647093)
edit; good tip on last minute Stub Hub bargain shopping


I've actually never sold a ticket on Stubhub - only purchased, but if anyone has - I'm kind of curious how this works... Do you set an initial price and then preset your price drops in some automated fashion (I would think Stubhub's data would be good enough that they could allow you to set a "list price" and then a floor - sort of like an auction)? Or - do you have to monitor and then manually drop the prices?

On the occasions I've ended up with extras - not just to ballgames, but also the occasional concert, etc -- I usually avail myself of brick-and-mortar resellers... primarily because in such cases - i.e., I've got extra seats and have extras - I'm usually looking to trade up. At least in my experience, this is the only time where using a reseller makes sense - especially if you've got an even number and are looking to exchange for a lesser, odd number. When I saw Springsteen at Wrigley - I got four tix through regular sales, but the couple me and my then-GF were going with had to bail... and my GF wasn't a big Boss/live music fan - so I basically swapped out all four nosebleeds for a single front field, center-stage seat. Based on what such seats were going for - I came out a couple hundred bucks ahead.

I think Stubhub also has mechanisms to support such swaps, but I've never tried them. IIRC, you cannot pair conditional transactions - just basically use a sale/buy as basically an account funding. Since I did very much intend to attend, didn't want to risk it -- so it just made more sense to do the swap with a broker.
   248. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5647096)
#243:
Has the Weinstein story not taught you anything?


It taught me that whenever I frenetically jerk off into potted plants, I always make sure there are no witnesses. Chlorophyll can't rat you out.
   249. Lassus Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5647098)
Chlorophyll can't rat you out.

Someone didn't watch enough CSI.
   250. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5647104)
I think it dumb to use the markets to measure Presidential performance, but others set the bar, not me.

Blaming Paul Krugman and those who made similar Election Night prophecies of doom is certainly in order, although I don't recall Bitter Mouse having actually done so, at least here, until well after the markets proved the Krugmaniacs wrong.
   251. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5647105)
Ag states would absolutely crash in the "Trump snaps his fingers" scenario.

We've scene food scares and energy crisis' that are akin to snapping one's fingers. They have not caused economies to crash. People and businesses adjust.
   252. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5647109)
Chlorophyll can't rat you out.

Someone didn't watch enough CSI.


To say nothing of "Little Shop of Hormones."
   253. Nasty Nate Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5647112)
Do you set an initial price and then preset your price drops in some automated fashion (I would think Stubhub's data would be good enough that they could allow you to set a "list price" and then a floor - sort of like an auction)? Or - do you have to monitor and then manually drop the prices?
I think you have to do it manually.
   254. DavidFoss Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5647118)
Blaming Paul Krugman and those who made similar Election Night prophecies of doom is certainly in order, although I don't recall Bitter Mouse having actually done so, at least here, until well after the markets proved the Krugmaniacs wrong.

I don't even know what point you are trying to make here, but to quote Krugman himself you seem to be touting an "Age of Diminished Expectations". As long as Trump isn't as bad as Krugman's election-night ill-advised live-blog op-ed tantrum, you'll claim victory.

What would conservative heroes Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan think of Trump's protectionist economic policy?

   255. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5647119)
I think you have to do it manually.


That's what I've been saying.
   256. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5647120)
When I used Stubhub several years ago you had to drop your prices manually. I wanted to move the tickets so I got a bit impatient and most definitely sold off my tickets at less than market price but then again I was doing it last minute so the comfort of knowing I had unloaded the tickets probably came close to being the difference in value between what I sold them and what the market price was for them.
   257. Nasty Nate Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5647124)
I wanted to move the tickets so I got a bit impatient and most definitely sold off my tickets at less than market price but then again I was doing it last minute so the comfort of knowing I had unloaded the tickets probably came close to being the difference in value between what I sold them and what the market price was for them.
When I've sold on Stubhub and they've gone fast, I've felt a little "seller's remorse."
   258. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5647127)
My God! The Dow hasn't been this low since.... November 27, 2017... The horror!
   259. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5647130)
What would conservative heroes Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan think of Trump's protectionist economic policy?

Would they know just how much Trump triggers libs (especially the ones that 'deify' illegal immigrants)?
   260. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5647134)
I think you have to do it manually.


That's too bad... I imagine there are probably a variety of regs and such that might make it infeasible for Stubhub to operate optimally in this fashion, but just based on extensive experience on the purchaser side - I would have to think that Stubhub has a huge data pool that would actually make it worthwhile for them to offer this as a 'service'.

I.e., especially with something like ballgames - they've almost certainly got a ton of data that would allow them to perfectly tune prices. I think they already take a cut off the seller price (in addition to SH fees to buy) -- for another 1-2-etc%? That would make it really worthwhile. Though, I suppose that perhaps it might also make them a lesser resale alternative - as an automated system probably lessens the value for people who work the SH market from the seller side of things.

Though, OTOH - as someone who currently uses Stubhub solely for purchases - I guess that such a system would wreck my own usage as a buyer, too... Rather than feasting on jittery resellers who don't want to get stuck with tickets they can't use, I'd be paying a more "true resale" price based that would eliminate the occasional real bargains.

I do think it's a really fascinating instance of true free market economics... Back in the late 90s, I kind of did a poor man's dabbling as a bleacher rat - emphasis on "poor" - while I never tried to make any money myself, I got to know some of the regular scalpers and used to be a sort of 'preferred customer' who was usually out and about at Murhphy's, etc and often scrounged up their leftovers, as well as supplementing my game attendance budget by "investing" in primo games and then doing swap-and-sells with the guys I pseudo-knew from the neighborhood.

Different world, now, though... back then - your biggest risk buying on the street was making sure that you had a scalper fan out the tix (if you were buying multiples), as some of the more unsavory sorts would show you one valid ticket for that day's game with old, unused tickets for prior games backing the stack or spreadign you around the park with one good seat facing up. So long as you did your simple due diligence, the risk was fairly low. Nowadays, with printouts sufficing? Too easy to get screwed.
   261. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5647135)
I think you have to do it manually.


That's what she said.
   262. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5647138)
Chlorophyll can't rat you out.

Someone didn't watch enough CSI.

To say nothing of "Little Shop of Hormones."



Even without the threat of legal and financial ruin, I eventually cut back on my photosynthetic perversions after a bad experience with a Venus flytrap.
   263. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5647143)
I recall watching HBO's Stalin starring Robert Duvall back in the day and with anything regarding HBO content they did a ton of pre-release hype for it including talking about the actual Russian history they would be covering. If I recall it was okay but not all that memorable. It came out before the era of Soprano's so it was a one off movie instead of a multi-episodic TV show. I don't think they needed to go all Rome or Deadwood on the show and definitely not go all Spartacus on it but like I said before if they had come out with it a decade later they definitely would have done a 10 parter or something like that for it and we would all be better off for it.

All of the machinations of the Communist party and of the Soviet leaders of the 40's through 60's is really interesting and would make great TV.
   264. McCoy Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5647146)
From what I remember Stubhub takes a sizable bite out of your sale to the point where you need to be selling tickets to highly in demand games in order to at least break even.
   265. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5647147)
What would conservative heroes Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan think of Trump's protectionist economic policy?

And what do real libertarians think of ICE and his immigration policies?
   266. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5647148)
edit; good tip on last minute Stub Hub bargain shopping


I get virtually all my sports tickets this way.
   267. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5647149)
bad experience with a Venus flytrap.
Was that the episode where he was a deserter? That all worked out.
   268. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5647152)
bad experience with a Venus flytrap.

Was that the episode where he was a deserter? That all worked out.



Sad to say, I was partially castrated. But on the plus side, I did learn the difference between an electron and a proton.
   269. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5647153)
All of the machinations of the Communist party and of the Soviet leaders of the 40's through 60's is really interesting and would make great TV.

Not to mention the Purge Trials of the late 30's that liquidated most of the USSR's leading generals.

And here might be a few other suggestions.
   270. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 02, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5647157)
Here's about as good a debate between conservatives and libertarians as I've seen. All the flaming is in the comments below, and not between the two participants:

ReasonTV: A Debate Between National Review's Charles Cooke and Reason's Nick Gillespie.
   271. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5647161)
From what I remember Stubhub takes a sizable bite out of your sale to the point where you need to be selling tickets to highly in demand games in order to at least break even.


15% says the site...

Beyond bargain scroungers like myself, I remember that most of the time - for all but mid-week day games - you'd still come out ahead. BITD before the night game schedule got bloated - I imagine you'd easily make a few bucks for night games and weekends based on what I saw (again, solely as a purchaser) unless you got left out in the cold and had to do a rapid price drop to unload.

Much as e-tix are certainly easier for all involved - I still think that's what really tanked the secondary market as any kind of valid "individual resale" market. Again, BITD - when all tickets were glossy, real tickets - it was just far more rare to actually get screwed by fake tickets because faking a ticket was neither cheap nor easy. This likewise meant if you had extras - it was far easier to unload. Exceptions applied for stuff like playoffs, of course - but nobody was really going to bother cooking up "fake tickets" for a bog standard regular season game.

Nowadays, when it's mostly just B&W printouts? Any yutz with access to a printer and even the most rudimentary of software can cook up fakes with ease.

While I didn't last year - on the rare occasion I didn't bargain shop stubhub shortly before gametime in years prior, I'd usually seek out the dad-looking guy with extras who looked out of place trying to unload an extra. Of course, you'd couldn't be TOO much of a hard-sell buyer because then you'd end up sitting next to the guy you just hard-talked into less than face - which wasn't the msot comfortable of experiences.
   272. Nasty Nate Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5647166)
This likewise meant if you had extras - it was far easier to unload.
It was easier to unload if you wanted to do it outside the park. But doing it digitally via stubhub is much easier than the old way.
   273. Stormy JE Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5647170)
I find SeatGeek to be a more pleasant experience than StubHub when buying tickets but does anyone have a preference when it comes to SELLING seats?
   274. Stormy JE Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5647186)
The Atlantic interview with MbS includes this gem:
Goldberg: Let’s talk about the broader Middle East. Do you believe the Jewish people have a right to a nation-state in at least part of their ancestral homeland?

MbS: I believe that each people, anywhere, has a right to live in their peaceful nation. I believe the Palestinians and the Israelis have the right to have their own land. But we have to have a peace agreement to assure the stability for everyone and to have normal relations.

Goldberg: You have no religious-based objection to the existence of Israel?

MbS: We have religious concerns about the fate of the holy mosque in Jerusalem and about the rights of the Palestinian people. This is what we have. We don’t have any objection against any other people.

Goldberg: Saudi Arabia has traditionally been a place that has produced a lot of anti-Semitic propaganda. Do you think you have a problem with anti-Semitism in your country?

MbS: Our country doesn’t have a problem with Jews. Our Prophet Muhammad married a Jewish woman. Not just a friend—he married her. Our prophet, his neighbors were Jewish. You will find a lot of Jews in Saudi Arabia coming from America, coming from Europe. There are no problems between Christian and Muslims and Jews. We have problems like you would find anywhere in the world, among some people. But the normal sort of problems.

Goldberg: Do you think Iran is bringing you and Israel together? Without Iran, could you imagine a situation in which you had other interests in common with Israel?

MbS: Israel is a big economy compared to their size and it’s a growing economy, and of course there are a lot of interests we share with Israel and if there is peace, there would be a lot of interest between Israel and the Gulf Cooperation Council countries and countries like Egypt and Jordan.
And this one:
Goldberg: You speak extraordinarily bluntly about Iran and its ideology. You’ve even equated the supreme leader to Hitler. What makes him a Hitler? Hitler is the worst thing you can be.

MbS: I believe that the Iranian supreme leader makes Hitler look good.

Goldberg: Really?

MbS: Hitler didn’t do what the supreme leader is trying to do. Hitler tried to conquer Europe. This is bad.

Goldberg: Yes, very bad.

MbS: But the supreme leader is trying to conquer the world. He believes he owns the world. They are both evil guys. He is the Hitler of the Middle East. In the 1920s and 1930s, no one saw Hitler as a danger. Only a few people. Until it happened. We don’t want to see what happened in Europe happen in the Middle East. We want to stop this through political moves, economic moves, intelligence moves. We want to avoid war.

Goldberg: Is the problem in your mind religious?

MbS: As I told you, the Shiites are living normally in Saudi Arabia. We have no problem with the Shiites. We have a problem with the ideology of the Iranian regime. Our problem is, we don’t think they have the right to interfere with our affairs.

Goldberg: I’m curious about Donald Trump and Barack Obama on this issue. It seems you think Donald Trump has a better understanding of this issue than Barack Obama.

MbS: Both of them understand it. I believe that President Obama had different tactics. President Obama believed that if he gave Iran opportunities to open up, it would change. But with a regime based on this ideology, it will not open up soon. Sixty percent of the Iranian economy is controlled by the Revolutionary Guard. The economic benefits of the Iran nuclear deal are not going to the people. They took $150 billion after the deal—can you please name one housing project they built with this money? One park? One industrial zone? Can you name for me the highway that they built? I advise them—please show us something that you’re building a highway with $150 billion. For Saudi Arabia, there is a 0.1 percent chance that this deal would work to change the country. For President Obama it was 50 percent. But even if there’s a 50 percent chance that it would work, we can’t risk it. The other 50 percent is war. We have to go to a scenario where there is no war.

We are pushing back on these Iranian moves. We’ve done this in Africa, Asia, in Malaysia, in Sudan, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon. We believe that after we push back, the problems will move inside Iran. We don’t know if the regime will collapse or not—it’s not the target, but if collapses, great, it’s their problem. We have a war scenario in the Middle East right now. This is very dangerous for the world. We cannot take the risk here. We have to take serious painful decisions now to avoid painful decisions later.
   275. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5647188)
Those purporting to keep close tabs on the House of Representatives for the benefit of BBTF-OTP have neglected to keep us posted on Elizabeth Esty (D-CT), who got herself in a bit of political trouble by ignoring the harrasment complaints against her Chief of Staff for months. After the considerable criticism, and calls for her resignation from the leading newspaper in her District, she has announced that she won't run for re-election.
   276. Stormy JE Posted: April 02, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5647195)
Since House Democrats are madly in love with the notion of federal background checks for all would-be gun buyers, how about they make use of them before giving IT staffers access to all of their files, including highly sensitive info?

DCNF Reporter Luke Rosiak Digs Deeper Into Imran Awan IT Scandal And It’s Not Good News For Democrats:
The Awan brothers — who worked as IT aides for many Democratic members of Congress, including Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz — have been the focus of an investigation into security practices on Capitol Hill.

The brothers were not given background checks before being given access to highly sensitive government information and no explanations have been given as to why.
In all, 44 House Ds utilized their services.

Yeah, not the best of looks...
   277. Greg K Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5647201)
Heh, as an update on that article on Auden's syllabus.

One of the English profs I had in mind who assigns Auden-like reading lists just posted that same article on facebook.
   278. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5647207)
Happy Clapper, #275:
Those purporting to keep close tabs on the House of Representatives for the benefit of BBTF-OTP have neglected to keep us posted on Elizabeth Esty (D-CT), who got herself in a bit of political trouble by ignoring the harrassment complaints against her Chief of Staff for months. After the considerable criticism, and calls for her resignation from the leading newspaper in her District, she has announced that she won't run for re-election.


Oh, poor sweetie. And I thought you weren't interested in the running tally. But I'm very proud of you for ferreting out that information I've desperately been trying to keep under wraps since literally one hour ago, when it was announced.

It's really mean of you to bring it up, though. Did I interrupt your repeated reveries of Washington DC Jewish Weather Guy's idiotic bigotry by bringing up the Minnesota State Representative Lady (GOP-R) who peppered her complaints about the "March for Our Lives" protesters with references to swastikas and Hitler youth?

Anyway, this slashes the "pure retirement" ratio to something like 29 Republicans vs. 10 or 11 Democrats. Clearly the worm has turned.

Unlike last week's Pennsylvania punkout, which happened after the state's filing deadline had passed, Connecticut Democrats now have only ten weeks to replace the late great Esty.
   279. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5647210)
Blaming Paul Krugman and those who made similar Election Night prophecies of doom is certainly in order, although I don't recall Bitter Mouse having actually done so, at least here, until well after the markets proved the Krugmaniacs wrong.


It is Clapper, so I am not sure why I bother, but "huh?"

Seriously dude, that is a YUGE stretch to try to attack me, your time would have been better spent ... well doing anything.

And the reason you "don't recall" is because no such thing ever happened. I never made any sort of election night prophecy. So yeah. Good one dude.
   280. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5647217)
And the reason you "don't recall" is because no such thing ever happened. I never made any sort of election night prophecy. So yeah. Good one dude.

Reading is fundamental. You're being chided, not for any prediction of your own, but your failure to criticize the predictions of the Krumaniacs until after they were proved wrongs by the markets. Your "Presidents get too much credit/blame for the economy" schtick didn't seem worth much of a mention before the current administration, or more accurately before the strong economic performance under the current administration.
   281. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5647220)
You're being chided, not for any prediction of your own, but your failure to criticize the predictions of the Krumaniacs until after they were proved wrongs by the markets.


Sigh. Clapper doubling down on dumb. To be expected. I took a vacation from BTF for a fair amount after the election, so when exactly was I supposed to write this critique? And anyway it is not my job to run around criticizing the Nobel prize winning economist here in this obscure corner of the internet when he tweets dumb things.

I think it precious though that you think it is this huge deal that I didn't attack Krugmans prediction, even though it should be clear - even to you - that I think linking the President to movements in the stock market is dumb.

I don't remember anyone else here agreeing with Krugman - heck look it up I might well have criticized it even - but so what? It is my job to criticize things you think are dumb?

Hey lazy, yes you, you don't like something YOU criticize it. I get to decide what I am willing to spend my time criticizing. Like you and your weird attacks on me. I admit it is super easy, but still I enjoy it.

EDIT: And for those confused, Clapper is desperately trying to make this about Krugman and not stretchy and his dumb insistence all last year that Trump was great because of the stock market. Not surprisingly stretchy has stopped with the stock market linkage now that Trump is doing less well. Always the cherry picker, our stretchy.
   282. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5647221)
Which, as I pointed out, would crash the economies of most red states, which is why it won't, and never will be done.

I don't think it will crash the economies of the various states. It will change them, probably gradually but it won't be drastic and happen quickly.

We've had various price shocks to agricultural goods throughout the years and it hasn't crashed economies. Things would change. Farmers would probably rip up human labor intensive products for goods that can be done easily by machinery. Overseas goods would come in. We'd develop machinery that could replicate the abilities of human harvesting, we'd alter our goods so that machine harvesting was more viable. So on and so on.

What we wouldn't do is simply do nothing and let the economies crash. Human beings don't do that.



Of course (that last). Exhibit #1: the OPEC oil crisis of the winter of 73-74. We dealt, with some trauma and angst, some derangement and rearrangement throughout the rest of the ‘70s. The frustration was annoying and it fed inflation like nothing had, but it was never as bad as legend has it (the suddenness fed paranoia and fears more than they were warranted), and by early 1980s, say, it was mostly folklore.

Oh, and the price of ag products went up, and farmers really liked that. I personally know some rice farmers around where I’m from who went from being tenants or lessors of farming property to buyers and owners almost overnight. Yet, the grudge against OPEC and Arabs and more expensive costs and labor stayed green in the memory for a long time.
   283. zenbitz Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5647222)
From what I remember Stubhub takes a sizable bite out of your sale to the point where you need to be selling tickets to highly in demand games in order to at least break even.


I'm still miffed at Stubhub (this is probably almost 10 years ago now) because I accidentally bought a ticket for the wrong day via misclick (I didn't notice the start time). I noticed this within 2 minutes and tried to get them to revert the transaction. They refused. They said I could sell the ticket back (note: This would get them a quadruple commission). I refused, instead protested the charge with my Bank (Visa). I did not pay. Nor did I download or try to go to the game.

   284. zenbitz Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5647224)
I have to pull a reverse-o-JE here and say "Thank Obama, who through shrewd diplomatic maneuvering*, forced SA into supporting Israel"

* obv by cuddling up to Iran
   285. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5647226)
Illegal immigrants are above the law. They break the law to get into the country but of course to note that would be racist, so that goes unheralded. They don't have to pay income taxes. They don't have to get car insurance or registration. They don't have to pay traffic tickets or parking tickets. They're allowed to work off the books.

Citizens don't get these special accommodations, but illegal immigrants do.

That's what has built up the resentment that the hard right is displaying.


There's something to be said about that. But, everyone and every entity want to default when they don't get their way, even to the point of engaging in illegality. Because we all have these superior sensibilities, and instead of working through the system, we seek end-runs around it. No one has a true commitment to anything outside their self-interest, and that includes doing good to those whom you perceived as the downtrodden, which just incidentally makes you seem, you think, like you're better. Moral swanking--it's what's for dinner.
   286. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5647227)
Heh, as an update on that article on Auden's syllabus.

One of the English profs I had in mind who assigns Auden-like reading lists just posted that same article on facebook.


He approved, I take it?

Auden was a pretty good critic. An essay he wrote about 50 years ago on humor, comedy, and satire informed my thinking at the time on the collective subject.
   287. Greg K Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5647228)
Yeah, predictable approval.

On a totally unrelated note he actually brought up Auden at dinner last night too. Though that was in a conversation about Church of England theology more than literature.

EDIT: Do you recall the name of the essay? I've been slowly putting together some research on comedy and I'm not sure I've come across his.
   288. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5647229)
I took a vacation from BTF for a fair amount after the election, so when exactly was I supposed to write this critique? . . . I don't remember anyone else here agreeing with Krugman - heck look it up I might well have criticized it even - but so what? It is my job to criticize things you think are dumb?

Perhaps you should review the 2016 Election Night OTP thread. Lots of predictions of economic calamity and a stock market crash as the outcome became clear. No rebuttal from Bitter Mouse, but, to be fair, he might have been in shock that night.
   289. -- Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5647230)
And for those confused, Clapper is desperately trying to make this about Krugman and not stretchy and his dumb insistence all last year that Trump was great because of the stock market. Not surprisingly stretchy has stopped with the stock market linkage now that Trump is doing less well. Always the cherry picker, our stretchy.


Even though people other than I have tried to explain it, the difference between this and what I actually said about Trump and the stock market continues to elude BTF's D student.
   290. Stormy JE Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5647232)
Perhaps you should review the 2016 Election Night OTP thread.

Here's one (EDIT: actually, one of many) adamant comment from Misirlou that didn't age too well:
That result is nonsense. There's no way hispanics are going to go bigger for Trump than Romney.
Oof.
   291. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5647233)
Clapper is desperately trying to make this about Krugman and not stretchy …

No, I'm just noting that Bitter Mouse's "Presidents get too much credit/blame for the economy" schtick didn't seem worth much of a mention before the current administration, or more accurately before the strong economic performance under the current administration. Probably just a coincidence, eh?
   292. Laser Man Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5647234)
Lots of predictions of economic calamity and a stock market crash as the outcome became clear
Many people noted that Trump's plans for tariffs, trade wars, pulling out of NAFTA/WTO, ACA repeal, mass deportations, slashing legal immigration, wasting money on border walls, huge corporate tax cuts, and exploding budget deficits would likely be bad for the economy. Fortunately, Trump was too incompetent to reach his goals in Year 1, but he seems to be well on his way in Year 2. Hopefully, saner heads in Congress will manage to limit the damage he actually does.
   293. Stormy JE Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5647236)
Now here's part of a post that did age well:
1255. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 08, 2016 at 09:36 PM (#5349041) ...

And I don't imagine for a second Hillary would take defeat any more graciously than Trump would--she, too, probably already has dozens of lawsuits all typed up and ready to file.
   294. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5647237)
287:

Do you recall the name of the essay? I've been slowly putting together some research on comedy and I'm not sure I've come across his.

It's a long time ago, before computers and the internet, and I think I read it in a magazine or review journal (maybe The New York Review of Books or The New Yorker), but the essay here on Don Juan may be it:

Search for "comedy" or "satire" or "humor"

I do have a distinct memory of this (the first, anyway):

Satire and comedy both make use of the comic contradiction,
but their aims are different. Satire would arouse in readers
the desire to act so that the contradictions disappear; comedy
would persuade them to accept the contradictions with good
humor as facts of life against which it is useless to rebel.


Comedy, on the other hand, is not only possible within a
Christian society, but capable of a much greater breadth and
depth than classical comedy. Greater in breadth because
classical comedy is based upon the division of mankind into
two classes, those who have arete and those who do not,
and only the second class, fools, shameless rascals, slaves,
are fit subjects for comedy. But Christian comedy is based
upon the belief that all men are sinners; no one, therefore,
whatever his rank or talents, can claim immunity from the
comic exposure and, indeed, the more virtuous, in the Greek
sense, a man is, the more he realizes that he deserves to be
exposed. Greater in depth because, while classical comedy
believes that rascals should get the drubbing they deserve,
Christian comedy believes that we are forbidden to judge
others and that it is our duty to forgive each other. In classi-
cal comedy the characters are exposed and punished: when
the curtain falls, the audience is laughing and those on
stage are in tears. In Christian comedy the characters are
exposed and forgiven: when the curtain falls, the audience
and the characters are laughing together. Ben Jonson’s
comedies, unlike Shakespeare’s, are classical, not Christian.
   295. Greg K Posted: April 02, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5647239)
That's an interesting distinction (Classical/Christian).

Thanks for the find!
   296. Morty Causa Posted: April 02, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5647241)
You're welcome.
   297. Count Posted: April 02, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5647248)
Now here's part of a post that did age well:
1255. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 08, 2016 at 09:36 PM (#5349041) ...

And I don't imagine for a second Hillary would take defeat any more graciously than Trump would--she, too, probably already has dozens of lawsuits all typed up and ready to file.


She, of course, did not file lawsuits. (I don't think she's handled defeat graciously, though she's handled it much better than Trump handled winning!)

   298. Count Posted: April 02, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5647249)
The MBS interview is really interesting, he says things that are absurd but I suppose it's hard to defend being an absolute monarch bombing the crap out of Yemen. Good quip about the interview from Alex Pareene on twitter:

@pareene
2h2 hours ago
reading Jeffrey Goldberg interview Mohammed bin Salman you get the impression that he believes all the US elites he deals with are either stupid and credulous or amoral and easily purchased, and also he is correct


Cozying up to Saudi Arabia is bipartisan, unfortunately: MBS is meeting leaders from both parties (including Obama), celebrities (Oprah!), tech moguls, etc. He is reportedly pretty close with our own idiot prince, Jared Kushner.
   299. Count Posted: April 02, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5647250)
FWIW I thought the stock market would crash after Trump won. The fact that it didn't proves that I'm the reason he won, or something.
   300. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 02, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5647252)
Perhaps you should review the 2016 Election Night OTP thread. Lots of predictions of economic calamity and a stock market crash as the outcome became clear. No rebuttal from Bitter Mouse, but, to be fair, he might have been in shock that night.


<Yawn>

Not my job to monitor the thread every day and rebut silliness. The fact that you seem to think it is ... is odd.

No, I'm just noting that Bitter Mouse's "Presidents get too much credit/blame for the economy" schtick didn't seem worth much of a mention before the current administration, or more accurately before the strong economic performance under the current administration. Probably just a coincidence, eh?


Not a coincidence, a lie. I have been very consistent in my opinion that it is silly to judge a president by the stock market*. But feel free to find any instance where I said otherwise (and no me making fun of stretchy doesn't count).

* To be clear there is a loose correlation, but there is a substantial time delay. Between those two factors it is silly and Presidents get way more credit good and bad than they deserve for economic news in general and specifically the stock market.
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