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Monday, August 13, 2018

OTP 2018 August 13: ‘Don’t confuse sports with politics,’ Kosovo tells Bosnia

Kosovo’s team was scheduled to play against the Bosnia and Herzegovina side on Thursday, the first day of the tournament which runs until August 16.

However the Kosovo Basketball Federation (FBK) told local media that by late Wednesday it still had not received an answer from Bosnia’s nearest embassy in Skopje, the capital of Macedonia, about the status of the team’s visa applications.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:31 AM | 1897 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   101. Howie Menckel Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5725993)
thanks, Zonk - but the talking point at the time, by Schifff and others, was not "Secret Service has to spend a lot of money on golf carts" but "Trump is making six figures on golf carts the Secret Service is renting - how dare he?"

man, I wanna live in a world where 60K of spending on golf carts is an issue worth talking about (ducks, braces for whaddabouts)

   102. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5725995)
And again, she's a worse humanoid than the Nazi scumbag, as astonishing as that might seem to some of you.


And she got 20,681 fewer votes than did the Republican Nazi scumbag.
   103. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5725996)
And again, she's a worse humanoid than the Nazi scumbag, as astonishing as that might seem to some of you.


Not coming from you, you piece of ####.
   104. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5725997)
And yet the GOP didn't bother. And that's the point.


Neither did Collins.

That's another point.
   105. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5725998)
BTW, how's DNC deputy chief Keith Ellison doing today?
   106. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5726001)
And she got 20,681 fewer votes than did the Republican Nazi scumbag.
It's so nice to see you're still doing your dumber than a doornail routine.
   107. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5726005)
It's so nice to see you're still doing your dumber than a doornail routine.


Because I can do math?

Hang tight - tomorrow, we'll see how Paul Nehlen does in his second go 'round for Paul Ryan's seat.

Since you like numbers so much, he managed 10,864 last time... based on Jones' performance - sounds like it's a good cycle to run as a Republican Nazi. You must be so proud.
   108. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5726006)
It's so nice to see you're still doing your dumber than a doornail routine


If there’s any group that should be reluctant to criticize the intelligence of another human being, it’s Trumpholsters.

Of course Juan has been at sub-Barbarino levels of intelligence for years.
   109. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5726008)
China should cut its losses in the trade war by conceding defeat to Donald Trump:
Xu Yimiao writes that China is running out of retaliatory tariffs against the US and has watched other major parties like the EU and Japan close ranks against it. Before the trade war gets more severe, Beijing’s leaders should seek direct talks with Trump, and may have to swallow their pride
Although there is still a chance that the Trump administration will start hitting other counties with tariffs again, once more giving China hope of allying with these other nations, it is clear that they are unlikely to stand with China on other fronts. For example, it is reported that from Berlin to London, the Europeans are tightening their scrutiny over Chinese investments in the name of national security, a move following US footsteps.

This setback has caused heated discussions domestically. People in academia, think tanks and the finance industry are concerned about China’s policy directions, not only in its recent dealings with the US about trade but also the overall trend over the past few years. There are increasing voices that China’s gain from the reform and opening-up policies of the past 40 years were because China has become integrated into a global economic system run by the US and its allies.

It is inappropriate, or at least premature, to send signals, intentionally or not, that China is about to build a new system to replace the existing one. China is still far from prepared for an economic confrontation with the US because China is much more dependent on US demand than the other way round, and it would only hurt itself if it were to take a hardline stance. Instead, China should be more focused on its own development and reforming the domestic economy.

It is possible that there were miscalculations several months ago when Beijing came up with the strategy of ###-for-tat retaliation, either because it underestimated Trump’s determination on trade policies, or because it underestimated the Washington establishment’s rising anti-China sentiments. By now, everybody in Beijing should have figured out how tough the situation is. Thus, Beijing has started to change its strategy. ...

Devising a whole new playbook will be tough. Over the past month, Beijing has been busy coming up with policies to insulate the domestic economy from external uncertainties. Monetary policy was the first to adjust, and since late June all the policies are quickly moving towards easing. The so-called “policy dispute” between the People’s Bank of China and the Ministry of Finance lasted for no more than two weeks, as the top leaders urged fiscal policy to be more proactive and requested “stability” on all fronts in the communiqué after the Politburo meeting on July 31.

Eventually, Beijing still has to convince the Americans to come back to the negotiating table, just as Europe, Japan and Mexico are doing. However, at this point it is unclear how or when this would happen.
   110. BrianBrianson Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5726010)
It's so nice to see you're still doing your dumber than a doornail routine.


Even if she's a worse person, it doesn't reflect terribly poorly on the (D)s that zero of them voted for her.
   111. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:41 PM (#5726012)
thanks, Zonk - but the talking point at the time, by Schifff and others, was not "Secret Service has to spend a lot of money on golf carts" but "Trump is making six figures on golf carts the Secret Service is renting - how dare he?"

man, I wanna live in a world where 60K of spending on golf carts is an issue worth talking about (ducks, braces for whaddabouts)


That's the problem - we don't actually know how much Trump is making. This data trickles out via CREW/JW/etc FOIA requests -- but even those are fairly incomplete.

I'm quite willing to bet that Trump is making at least 7 figures annually - and I'm betting that 7 figure is profit, not revenue - based on the various mechanisms by which Trump properties are being paid for 'government business' of solely the specific sort that Trump and his family are able to direct individually. That's not even counting any business like foreign diplomats staying at Trump hotels -- I'm specifically talking about revenues generated when Trump or a Trump family member uses a Trump asset and bills the feds.

This is precisely how his "charities" operated -- money laundering pass-throughs (take Goofus' - or is was it Doofus'? - St Jude charity which 'rented' the Trump club).

It's a racket. Pure and simple. Trump declines his "salary" - which I'm sure he's writing off - but amasses several times over the value via crap like this.

Hell, this was the Clinton's problem... they were pikers.
   112. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5726013)
Since you like numbers so much, he managed 10,864 last time... based on Jones' performance - sounds like it's a good cycle to run as a Republican Nazi. You must be so proud.
Were you not doing the dumber than a doornail act, you'd acknowledge that there are no shortage of voters who will pull a lever for their party's sole candidate, not having a clue who he or she is on any issue.

In contrast, there's a competitive Dem primary in Minnesota's 5th Congressional District tomorrow. How many votes do you believe known hater Ilhan Omar will receive?
   113. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5726014)
China should cut its losses in the trade war by conceding defeat to Donald Trump:


In case anyone was wondering if Rupert Murdoch owned a newspaper targeting Chinese people...now you know.

Good find Juan, you’re the holster with the molster!
   114. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5726015)
If this embarrassing candidate day at OTP, we should mention the double-murderer running for the Senate from Minnesota. As a Democrat, of course. Got 14,000 votes in one of his House runs. Not sure why the state hasn't got around to banning the incarcerated from running. Maybe they don't want to make the criminals feel bad?
   115. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5726016)
China should cut its losses in the trade war by conceding defeat to Donald Trump:

"Should" and "will" are two different words. China's leaders have an obsession over "face" that's no less deep than Donald Trump's.

I also wonder how many times the North Vietnamese were told that they could never beat the U.S. on the battlefield. Not everyone subjects their decisions to an objective cost-benefit analysis.
   116. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5726019)
Even if she's a worse person, it doesn't reflect terribly poorly on the (D)s that zero of them voted for her.
Yes, I suppose it would have been interesting if she had been the only candidate in the primary and had been arrested a week before the primary. I'm quite sure thousands of Democrat voters would have pulled the lever for her.
   117. Howie Menckel Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5726020)
I'm quite willing to bet that Trump is making at least 7 figures annually - and I'm betting that 7 figure is profit, not revenue - based on the various mechanisms by which Trump properties are being paid for 'government business' of solely the specific sort that Trump and his family are able to direct individually.

that's quite plausible
   118. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5726021)
. . . we don't actually know how much Trump is making.

Of course, that doesn't stop Adam Schiff & Zonk from just making stuff up. Repeatedly.
   119. BrianBrianson Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5726022)
Yes, I suppose it would have been interesting if she had been the only candidate in the primary and had been arrested a week before the primary. I'm quite sure thousands of Democrat voters would have pulled the lever for her.


Keep your fingers crossed. A record number of candidates is a record number of opportunities for dick pics. (or ... clit pics? I understand the (D) has a lot of ladies this time 'round).
   120. BrianBrianson Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5726024)
In case anyone was wondering if Rupert Murdoch owned a newspaper targeting Chinese people...now you know.

Good find Juan, you’re the holster with the molster!


The real problem is the obvious - China can't offer Trump anything, because what Trump wants is to impose tariffs on China. It's not a means to an ends - it's his ends. Canada has a trade deficit with America - tariffs anyways, because tariffs are what he wants. So, use counter-tariffs, targetted at Trumps allies - and what else could you do?

And, of course, there's absolutely zero point in making a deal with Trump, since he has no intention of honoring it anyhow. Unless you're going to play the same game - Kim Jong-Un played it right. But it's wiser for China to seem like they'll (at least roughly) honor their deals.
   121. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5726025)
. . . we don't actually know how much Trump is making.

Of course, that doesn't stop Adam Schiff & Zonk from just making stuff up. Repeatedly.


I bet they’re secretly savage jungle Negroes too.
   122. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5726027)
known hater Ilhan Omar

Critical of Israel and....?
   123. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5726028)
China should cut its losses in the trade war by conceding defeat to Donald Trump:


Indeed - all good Trumpkins read about this (Note - you should probably mouse over if you don't want to lend clicks).



   124. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5726029)
In contrast, there's a competitive Dem primary in Minnesota's 5th Congressional District tomorrow. How many votes do you believe known hater Ilhan Omar will receive?

Haaretz: Critical of Israel, Embraced by Ocasio-Cortez: Minnesota Muslim Candidate Becomes Target of Alt-right Troll
Rabbi Michael Latz, senior rabbi at Minneapolis’s Shir Tikvah Congregation says the attacks on Omar are less about Middle East politics and more “about racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, and misogyny” He believes the recent wave of progressive women of color who are winning - or are on the brink of winning elections like Ocasio-Cortez and Tlaib “completely undermines a racist world view,” triggering backlash.

Latz, who has also defended Ellison against criticism of his past affiliation with the Nation of Islam, praised Omar.

“She is a progressive leader, a coalition builder, and a visionary in the Somali Muslim & Minneapolis communities. We disagree about BDS. But I’ve always found her to be open and responsive and willing to dialogue. If she’s elected as our congresswoman, I’ll work with her to support Iron Dome, the two-state solution, and end the expansion of illegal settlements,” Latz said.

But I'm sure JE's got a crush on Omar's troller, Laura Loomer....
   125. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5726033)
I'm guessing the busted-out pig farmer posted the Rupert Murdoch comment? If so, please let him know his memory has failed too: Murdoch sold the paper a quarter-century ago and now it's owned by Alibaba.
   126. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5726034)
. . . we don't actually know how much Trump is making.


Of course, that doesn't stop Adam Schiff & Zonk from just making stuff up. Repeatedly.


Of course, there's a very easy way to settle the question, too.

Trump could release his taxes and the Trump properties could open their books - or at least, reveal the total charges incurred by government officials purchasing Trump "stuff" on dates the Trump family utilized such assets.

One problem with the FOIA requests - which tell us that the Trumps most definitely are profligate spenders of taxpayer money that is nearly double the rate of any prior administrations - is that they don't clearly show us all of the auxiliary costs.

It's a racket.

Clapper knows it. Jason knows it. Everyone knows.
   127. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:09 PM (#5726035)
I'm old enough to remember when Andy wouldn't tolerate pretty open displays of bigotry, particularly when the tweeter has yet to apologize:

Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel. #Gaza #Palestine #Israel
   128. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5726038)
And I see you referenced Farakkhan fanboy Keith Ellison. Does that mean you also don't care about the accusations of domestic abuse that have been leveled against him?
   129. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5726040)
Critical of Israel and....?

Well, she's more than "critical", but Ilhan Omar may have a problem with immigration fraud via a sham marriage to her own brother. That would also make her filing in the subsequent divorce action fraudulent, too. There seems to be enough there to warrant some investigation, and it's probably just a coincidence that the timing works out so that any investigation isn't completed until after she's been nominated.
   130. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5726043)
The bigger problem with Juannity's op-ed is that:

#1 - The "deal" Trump and Junckers reached is "to pledge to work towards". In fact, none of the US or EU retaliatory tariffs have actually been lifted. I suppose Trump backed down from his auto tariffs - so Trump conceded defeat on exacerbating his dumb ideas... Yay?

#2 - The InfoWars/South China Morning Post op-ed Juannity notes approvingly is obviously written from a Chinese perspective... Forgive me - but I was under the impression that the "easy" trade wars were about American workers... not what it meant for China? Was I mistaken?

#3 - The Trump admin is about to spend about 12 billion dollars to bail out US Agriculture... Remember when deficits mattered? And how awesome is it that the Trumpkins are now enacting a Keynsian stimulus to bail out a US economic segment... on the heels of their awesome tax bill... which punched another trillion hole in the deficit... while the tax bill continues to lose its already middling popularity.... because guess what - hourly wages haven't risen at all as a result of it.


   131. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5726046)
The InfoWars//South China Morning Post op-ed
Still going with dumb as a doornail, I see.
   132. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5726048)
Still going with dumb as a doornail, I see.


I've found that the only way to communicate with Trumpkins is to speak in their vernacular.
   133. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5726050)
Can't wait for Trump to do something extremely embarrassing again, like Helsinki, so Jason will run away and hide again. This site is so much more pleasant when he's hiding.
   134. Howie Menckel Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5726054)
MSNBC found a clip of Donald Jr. and aired it today from 2006, talking with Donny Deutsch on some TB show.

blah blah, Jr. says Dad told him "remember - never drink, never smoke, never do drugs" (which I believe Sr. never did).

but there was another thing Dad imparted, "Never trust anybody."

Jr. says "sometimes Dad would ask me, 'Do you trust me?'' and I'd say, 'of course, you're my Dad.'"

Jr. then says something to the effect of Dad shaking his head because kid is not 'getting it.'

then the kicker: Jr. says something like, "Now, you might wonder why he's telling his 4-year-old son this....."

#pagingdrfreud
   135. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5726057)
Can't wait for Trump to do something extremely embarrassing again, like Helsinki, so Jason will run away and hide again. This site is so much more pleasant when he's hiding.


Nah, I disagree.

SBB and Ray have their schtick, but it's become fairly tedious and predictable. Plus, I've noticed that they've both subtly increased the frequency of their occasional "Yeah, Trump is a an idiot but....". Almost as if they know the end is near and it's time to start burnishing their "I was never a Trumpkin" street cred.

Clapper is the world's greatest metronome. He's like spending hours upon hours bouncing a tennis ball against the wall. Once the farce is over - I have zero doubt he's going to hang his hat on the fact that he's actually never typed the word "Trump".... Seriously - go search. He'll copy/paste/quote it - but it's a real oddity. It was a similar thing with Ray Moore, actually - some kind of odd tic. The only real reason I bother with him is because it's become almost an obsession to get him to actually fashion a sentence where he makes 'Trump' - or even just a pronoun with Trump as the obvious reference the subject of the sentence.

I welcome back some skittish batting practice...
   136. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5726058)
blah blah, Jr. says Dad told him "remember - never drink, never smoke, never do drugs" (which I believe Sr. never did).


No wonder the whole clan is such a bunch of space lizards.

   137. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5726060)
An interesting little addition to the usual Trump statements....

“Don has received notoriety for a brief meeting, that many politicians would have taken, but most importantly, and to the best of my knowledge,nothing happened after the meeting concluded.”


drip drip drip
   138. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 07:58 PM (#5726063)
Can't wait for Trump to do something extremely embarrassing again, like Helsinki, so Jason will run away and hide again. This site is so much more pleasant when he's hiding.
LOL. I don't hide. You must have me confused with shipman and/or Mafisto.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm pretty sure I disappeared several days before Trump arrived in Helsinki.
   139. . Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5726065)
SBB and Ray have their schtick


I'm not sure I'd refer to pinpoint accuracy irrespective of tribe a "schtick," but whatever floats your boat I guess.
   140. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5726074)
Well, she's more than "critical",

I'm going to assume you have something better than #127, which is rather the definition of 'critical of Israel'. What's your "more"?
   141. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5726075)

Not sure why the state hasn't got around to banning the incarcerated from running.
U.S. Term Limits says that they can't.
   142. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5726076)
Still going with dumb as a doornail, I see

You whine and whine that people respond with a lack of substance, and then you type THIS in response to a long, linked, cited post?
   143. Shredder Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5726078)
And I see you referenced Farakkhan fanboy Keith Ellison. Does that mean you also don't care about the accusations of domestic abuse that have been leveled against him?
Ooh, what happened, did he grab someone by the #####?
   144. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5726079)
I'm going to assume you have something better than #127, which is rather the definition of 'critical of Israel'. What's your "more"?
Excuse me? Calling Israel an evildoer is not boilerplate criticism. And again, we've yet to even hear a non-apology apology from her, let alone a sincere one.
   145. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:26 PM (#5726082)
You whine and whine that people respond with a lack of substance, and then you type THIS in response to a long, linked, cited post?
Without any explanation, he linked a Chinese newspaper owned by one of the world's largest technology conglomerates to Alex Jones. My response was apt.
   146. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5726091)
Excuse me? Calling Israel an evildoer is not boilerplate criticism.


There is no excuse, because it is just criticism. I do like the random and sudden insertion of "boilerplate" in an effort to make your sad argument stronger though. Good try.
   147. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5726092)
Without any explanation, he linked a Chinese newspaper owned by one of the world's largest technology conglomerates to Alex Jones. My response was apt.


OK, that's fair.

You want an explanation?

In fact, I read it last week. See - I do tend to keep an eye on all manner of Infowars, Jim Hoft, Breitbart, DC Whispers, et al. I've even got a twitter account I use solely to monitor the Cernovichs and company - and even some of the finer QAnon purveyors.

Mostly, I do this because it never fails - what becomes the favorite toy in a day or three of the allegedly "respectable" Trumpkins starts at such places. Sure - correlation and causality and all - but it's really uncanny. If you happen to have Trumpkin acquaintances or family - take heed of the list above. I guarantee you'll never be caught unaware of the favorite Trumpkin theme of any given day again.

Go ahead... we'll play a game.

Find me a pro-Trump argument - some column, random article, or argument in favor of Trump. I'm willing to bet I can find an earlier posting at one of the above or similar. It's the like the modern GOP junior varsity... they pretend the goofy kids are not really their base, but inevitably - you find it's almost like a proving ground.
   148. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5726095)
There is no excuse, because it is just criticism.
Some of us have been around folks overseas who can explain to lily white cul-de-sac-ers like you what "may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel" means.

Meanwhile, have you got any thoughts on the accusations against Ellison?
   149. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5726097)
Mostly, I do this because it never fails - what becomes the favorite toy in a day or three of the allegedly "respectable" Trumpkins starts at such places. Sure - correlation and causality and all - but it's really uncanny. If you happen to have Trumpkin acquaintances or family - take heed of the list above. I guarantee you'll never be caught unaware of the favorite Trumpkin theme of any given day again.
You really need a new hobby. Or maybe a woman sporting at least a faint heartbeat.
Go ahead... we'll play a game.
No, thanks. I have a life.
   150. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5726100)
Some of us have been around folks overseas who can explain to lily white cul-de-sac-ers like you what "may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel" means.


Dude, seriously. The question was anything other than criticism of Israel and your response was ... "It was extra bad criticism of Israel." And then in response to my post it was more about the criticism of Israel.

Is there anything OTHER than criticism (including extra super duper naughty criticism) of Israel? At this point I assume no, but I am vaguely interested in the reply. But go ahead attack me personally again, it might distract you from the actual question.
   151. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5726103)
Meanwhile, have you got any thoughts on the accusations against Ellison?


If there is truth to them, he should resign. If costs the Democrats a seat for a cycle, via a Rostenkowskian fluke - my opinion remains the same.

In particular, the allegation of domestic violence is quite concerning.

I read through some of the texts - I'll admit, not all - but a good chunk and the problem is, I didn't read anything that supports the allegations. The worst one I read was an exchange where she talks about a "chapter in her book" - which sounded more like an allusion to life than an actual 'book' - that Ellison took exception to in a "you're writing a book?!?!" kind of way. I will admit - I didn't read them through a "Strozk life summed up in text" manner - but when you read a few hundred texts (note, a few hundred texts... in context), the impression I got was a painful relationship ending... which people have had.

Now, as she actually is writing a book - I suppose it's entirely possible that the juiciest of them are being saved for an Omerosa-style rollout. In particular, there is a allegedly a video of Ellison forecefully dragging her out of bed. That would certainly make Ellison persona non grata so far as I'm concerned.

So - I'm quite willing to give Ellison's accuser the benefit of the doubt... but it gives me pause that she says there are texts and video, but none of that is yet forthcoming.

In short - I'm applying the same standard that I wish Trumpkins would apply to Trump.... Accusations... statements that are validated as legitimate... evidence... number of accusations... credibility of the accuser....

   152. zenbitz Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:58 PM (#5726104)

How about joining us in the Big App for next year's Shooty Memorial?


Its not impossible. This august was tough for me to travel.

Edit yes its still August
   153. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5726105)
but I am vaguely interested in the reply.
I've missed you, Obtusity!
But go ahead attack me personally again, it might distract you from the actual question.
Wait, after years of referring to your lily white cul-de-sac, NOW you say it offends you? Wow.

And I guess that means you have no comment on Ellison at this time? Sad!
   154. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5726106)
If there is truth to them, he should resign. If costs the Democrats a seat for a cycle, via a Rostenkowskian fluke - my opinion remains the same.


Some things that are deeply suspicious is the timing (the primary is Tomorrow), the fact that the son posted it originally and not the mother, there is no corroborating proof, there are no other women I know of speaking out with similar stories, and his ex-wife is saying it is not like the man she was married to. Such allegations don't mean much standing alone IMO. Not to say it didn't happen, it easily could have, but all we have no is allegations and denials right before the primary. If it did happen, then obviously that is not OK in many ways.

I was just talking with the boys tonight (it is their first election) and as I told them I have not yet decided who I am voting for in either the Gov primary or the Attorney General primary. (I told them they should do their own research, especially if they wanted to vote Republican - not my circus, not my monkeys). For Gov I am torn between Walz and Swanson, and for AG Ellison and Hilstrom.

No matter how I vote, or who wins, it will probably not cost a seat. Ellison is already leaving his House seat and this is just the Primary, so the only way it could cost is IF Ellison wins the Primary and then more comes out (like the supposed video of the alleged incident).
   155. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5726108)
Wait, after years of referring to your lily white cul-de-sac, NOW you say it offends you? Wow.


Reading, not your strength. I didn't say I was offended, merely that you were attacking me in order to distract. Which you did again in the very post I just quoted. It is kind of your thing, you get backed into a corner and you attack the other person (see up thread for other examples, not directed at me). It kind of shows your limitations and is a bit sad, but you gotta be you I guess.

And I was composing a reply (and doing other things like paying myself and the Fed and State for the month's pay), you certainly were quick to assume I wasn't going to respond though. You shouldn't judge others by your own behavior, it is bad form.
   156. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5726112)
Reading, not your strength. I didn't say I was offended, merely that you were attacking me in order to distract.
Good grief, dude, I'm still unclear how saying you're a lily white cul-de-sac resident constitutes a personal attack. And you claim it's a personal attack, but not at all offended? LMAO.

This place is something else.
   157. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5726116)
Its not impossible. This august was tough for me to travel.
See what you can do. It's always good to put a face with a handle. As you can see, I frequently roll my eyes at Mousie here but he's a sweet dude in person.
   158. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5726118)
You really need a new hobby. Or maybe a woman sporting at least a faint heartbeat.


Heh... well, I'm going to put this in the bucket of mixed blessings.

On the one hand, she just got pissed because I asked her to pause the season premier of Insecure to have her weigh in and also hit me with the "I thought you were doing some work..."

OTOH - she says, quote, that I should "tell that little micropenis trump lover that my heartbeat is louder than the latex lady he's got on the couch".

Unfortunately, I kind of ###### up and pulled a Ray and tried to out-SJW her by saying that technically, I have no clue - nor do I consider germane; but somewhat presumptuous to assume - Juannity's sexual orientation. I am deploying my best SBB 'smile and change the subject' - but I fear this goodnight... as I think I have stepped in some messes I need to clean up.

####### Trumpkins. You're nothing but trouble.
   159. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5726127)
I'm old enough to remember when Andy wouldn't tolerate pretty open displays of bigotry, particularly when the tweeter has yet to apologize:

Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel. #Gaza #Palestine #Israel

Never mind that this was another one of your famous Links to Nowhere, calling certain actions of Israel "evil" doesn't strike me as anything worthy of shock or horror. I'm not sure what else you'd call Israel's constant expansion of its West Bank settlements, along with their confiscation of Palestinian property, but I don't think even the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan would call it Benign Neglect.

And also never mind the comical irony of calling Ilhan Omar a "hater" when you can't even bring yourself to call Donald Trump a racist.

As for Keith Ellison, I'll denounce him if and when his accuser(s) produce that video they claim to have. Until then, I'm not rushing to judgment, and neither should you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good grief, dude, I'm still unclear how saying you're a lily white cul-de-sac resident constitutes a personal attack

It's not really a personal attack, but as a meme it's got long lily white whiskers, made even lamer by the fact that you didn't even think of it yourself, but picked it up from either Clapper or Good Face. It's about on the level of Tim Whatley's Jewish jokes, except that the scriptwriters intended those jokes to be stupid.
   160. Stormy JE Posted: August 13, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5726129)
Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism:
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- For the first time in Gallup's measurement over the past decade, Democrats have a more positive image of socialism than they do of capitalism. Attitudes toward socialism among Democrats have not changed materially since 2010, with 57% today having a positive view. The major change among Democrats has been a less upbeat attitude toward capitalism, dropping to 47% positive this year -- lower than in any of the three previous measures. Republicans remain much more positive about capitalism than about socialism, with little sustained change in their views of either since 2010.
Oh yeah, *your* party is in great shape. The funny thing is I suspect at least a handful of you are thrilled with this result.
   161. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 13, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5726136)
Or maybe that poll just reflects what the respondents have seen of crony capitalism, and in their frustration they figure that the grass is always greener. Maybe if some of your party would stop defending the likes of Donald Trump, Scott Pruitt, and the countless personally corrupt members (current and recently discharged) of the GOP swamp, there'd be more enthusiasm for capitalism and less enthusiasm for utopian promises. If trashing the environment and crowing over the Dow while wages are stagnant and housing costs are soaring is what "capitalism" has come to represent, then it's not surprising that "capitalism" is losing favor.

And when Republicans keep calling measures like universal health insurance "socialism", is it any wonder that "socialism" becomes more appealing?
   162. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5726139)
And when Republicans keep calling measures like universal health insurance "socialism", is it any wonder that "socialism" becomes more appealing?


No kidding. Despite what Jason wants us to believe, when people hear Socialism, more and more they think Sweden, not Soviet Union.
   163. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 13, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5726144)
Meanwhile, this has got to be the most spot-on commentary on immigration ever since Stephen Miller started writing Trump's immigration speeches, and it comes from Stephen Miller's own uncle. JE and David might do well to reflect on it:

Stephen Miller Is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.

If my nephew’s ideas on immigration had been in force a century ago, our family would have been wiped out.
Let me tell you a story about Stephen Miller and chain migration.

It begins at the turn of the 20th century, in a dirt-floor shack in the village of Antopol, a shtetl of subsistence farmers in what is now Belarus. Beset by violent anti-Jewish pogroms and forced childhood conscription in the Czar’s army, the patriarch of the shack, Wolf-Leib Glosser, fled a village where his forebears had lived for centuries and took his chances in America.

He set foot on Ellis Island on January 7, 1903, with $8 to his name. Though fluent in Polish, Russian and Yiddish, he understood no English. An elder son, Nathan, soon followed. By street corner peddling and sweatshop toil, Wolf-Leib and Nathan sent enough money home to pay off debts and buy the immediate family’s passage to America in 1906. That group included young Sam Glosser, who with his family settled in the western Pennsylvania city of Johnstown, a booming coal and steel town that was a magnet for other hardworking immigrants. The Glosser family quickly progressed from selling goods from a horse and wagon to owning a haberdashery in Johnstown run by Nathan and Wolf-Leib to a chain of supermarkets and discount department stores run by my grandfather, Sam, and the next generation of Glossers, including my dad, Izzy. It was big enough to be listed on the AMEX stock exchange and employed thousands of people over time. In the span of some 80 years and five decades, this family emerged from poverty in a hostile country to become a prosperous, educated clan of merchants, scholars, professionals, and, most important, American citizens.

What does this classically American tale have to do with Stephen Miller? Well, Izzy Glosser is his maternal grandfather, and Stephen’s mother, Miriam, is my sister.

I have watched with dismay and increasing horror as my nephew, an educated man who is well aware of his heritage, has become the architect of immigration policies that repudiate the very foundation of our family’s life in this country.

I shudder at the thought of what would have become of the Glossers had the same policies Stephen so coolly espouses— the travel ban, the radical decrease in refugees, the separation of children from their parents, and even talk of limiting citizenship for legal immigrants — been in effect when Wolf-Leib made his desperate bid for freedom. The Glossers came to the U.S. just a few years before the fear and prejudice of the “America first” nativists of the day closed U.S. borders to Jewish refugees. Had Wolf-Leib waited, his family likely would have been murdered by the Nazis along with all but seven of the 2,000 Jews who remained in Antopol. I would encourage Stephen to ask himself if the chanting, torch-bearing Nazis of Charlottesville, whose support his boss seems to court so cavalierly, do not envision a similar fate for him.

Like other immigrants, our family’s welcome to the USA was not always a warm one, but we largely had the protection of the law, there was no state-sponsored violence against us, no kidnapping of our male children, and we enjoyed good relations with our neighbors. True, Jews were excluded from many occupations, couldn’t buy homes in some towns, couldn’t join certain organizations or attend certain schools or universities, but life was good. As in past generations, there were hate mongers who regarded the most recent groups of poor immigrants as scum, rapists, gangsters, drunks and terrorists, but largely the Glosser family was left alone to live our lives and build the American dream. Children were born, synagogues founded, and we thrived. This was the miracle of America.

Acting for so long in the theater of right-wing politics, Stephen and Trump may have become numb to the resultant human tragedy and blind to the hypocrisy of their policy decisions. ...

I have met Central Americans fleeing corrupt governments, violence and criminal extortion; a Yemeni woman unable to return to her war-ravaged home country and fearing sexual mutilation if she goes back to her Saudi husband; and an escaped kidnap-bride from central Asia.

Trump wants to make us believe that these desperate migrants are an existential threat to the United States; the most powerful nation in world history and a nation made strong by immigrants. Trump and my nephew both know their immigrant and refugee roots. Yet, they repeat the insults and false accusations of earlier generations against these refugees to make them seem less than human. Trump publicly parades the grieving families of people hurt or killed by migrants, just as the early Nazis dredged up Jewish criminals to frighten and enrage their political base to justify persecution of all Jews. Almost every American family has an immigration story of its own based on flight from war, poverty, famine, persecution, fear or hopelessness. Most of these immigrants became workers, entrepreneurs, scientists and soldiers of America.

Most damning is the administration's evident intent to make policy that specifically disadvantages people based on their ethnicity, country of origin and religion. No matter what opinion is held about immigration, any government that specifically enacts law or policy on that basis must be recognized as a threat to all of us. Laws bereft of justice are the gateway to tyranny. Today others may be the target, but tomorrow it might just as easily be you or me. History will be the judge, but in the meantime the normalization of these policies is rapidly eroding the collective conscience of America. Immigration reform is a complex issue that will require compassion and wisdom to bring the nation to a just solution, but the politicians who have based their political and professional identity on ethnic demonization and exclusion cannot be trusted to do so. As free Americans, and descendants of immigrants and refugees, we have the obligation to exercise our conscience by voting for candidates who will stand up for our highest national values and not succumb to our lowest fears.
   164. Lassus Posted: August 13, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5726147)
Oh yeah, *your* party is in great shape.

Tell us about trickle-down economics, daddy!
   165. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5726152)
Posts like #163 are idiotic. At one time North America was an unsettled continent, the United States had an open frontier, and there were virtually no restrictions on immigration. As circumstances changed, so did the law, and people are no longer allowed to self-select their own admission. That someone's ancestors arrived legally under different circumstances doesn't affect the legality of later statutes. It's a phony and thoroughy unconvincing argument.
   166. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5726168)
Posts like #163 are idiotic.


#### you. Trump's own wife, an illegal immigrant herself, was able to bring her parents here through chain migration, and they recently became citizens. Does Trump want to put and end to that? No, because presumably, Slovenia is not a ######## country. #### you and everything you stand for.
   167. Ray (CTL) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5726169)
Why is it such a big deal that she recorded the conversation?

The big deal is that she was able to bring the device inside without anyone apparently knowing nor caring. It speaks very poorly about WH security protocols.


What's the gotcha here, though? Did Trump fire all of the security personnel upon arriving at the White House and install his own Best Security People? I imagine the security staff is comprised of the same people who were there when Obama was there. So why are folks trying to make anti-Trump hay out of this?

Sounds like TDS.
   168. Ray (CTL) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5726174)
#### you and


...the horse you rode in on?
   169. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5726178)
Michael Avenatti apparently considering running for president. Good Lord, NO!

Please, enough with the reality TV show candidates.
   170. greenback slays lewks Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5726184)
And I see you referenced Farakkhan fanboy Keith Ellison. Does that mean you also don't care about the accusations of domestic abuse that have been leveled against him?

Damn, I'm good. Just needed a little more patience.
   171. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5726187)
#### you. Trump's own wife, an illegal immigrant herself, was able to bring her parents here through chain migration, and they recently became citizens. Does Trump want to put and end to that? No, because presumably, Slovenia is not a ######## country. #### you and everything you stand for.

Poor pathetic Misirlou must think his epithets strengthen his usual make-things-up, weak-sauce arguments. Melania Trump entered the U.S. legally in 1996. Although the article in #163 attempts to fashion an argument about chain immigration, it ignores the fact that the underlying claims being discussed were mostly phony ones that didn't qualify for political asylum, which explains why large numbers of those immigrants never show for their asylum hearings. Immigration law doesn't provide asylum for those in a bad marriage, living in poverty, or in a high crime area. The Trump Administration is enforcing the immigration laws similary to how Bush, Clinton, and their predecessors did. Obama was the outlier who unilaterally refused to enforce the immigration laws, and there is no credible case for those unilaterally-imposed policies being foisted on a new Administration that wishes to return to the prior well-established policies.
   172. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 11:56 PM (#5726189)
Melania Trump entered the U.S. legally in 1996


On a tourist visa. She worked illegally on that visa, as per her own words. It's interesting you take this stance for her. Would you do the same for everyone who works illegally on a tourist visa? Or just for Trump's current wife?

And no comment on her parents arriving and becoming citizens via chain migration. Concession accepted?
   173. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:08 AM (#5726191)
The illegal work allegation has never been proven, nor has the exact nature of Melania's visa been established. She became a permanent resident in 2001, and a citizen in 2006. I don't have a problem with anyone who goes through that multi-stage process, but you are comparing her to those who don't have valid claims for asylum, much less a legal basis to bring in their relatives under any chain migration mechanism.
   174. greenback slays lewks Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:12 AM (#5726193)
I don't have a problem with anyone who goes through that multi-stage process, but you are comparing her to those who don't have valid claims for asylum, much less a basis to bring in their relatives under any chain migration mechanism.

So to be clear, you think anyone who becomes a citizen should be allowed to engage in chain migration? How about anyone with permanent residence ("green card")?
   175. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:14 AM (#5726195)
#### you.
Oh dear. Did you forget to pick up your refills again?
   176. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:16 AM (#5726196)
And when Republicans keep calling measures like universal health insurance "socialism", is it any wonder that "socialism" becomes more appealing?
Shorter Andy: The evil Republicans tricked us into liking socialism!
   177. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:24 AM (#5726198)
David Marcus:
I’ve spent most of my adult life producing theater in New York City. In that time, on more occasions than I care to remember, only 20 people showed up in the audience when I’d hoped for hundreds. I thought of that with a smile yesterday watching the maybe two dozen sad white nationalists hold their “rally” in Washington. I know how bad that feels, the Public Address system and stage you paid for mocking you.

Jason Kessler and his gang more than deserved it, but you can see why they assumed they were going to sell out. The going narrative in our newspapers and cable news shows is that the Trump presidency has emboldened white supremacists, that they are no longer ashamed. After all, the president is winking at them. There were probably 20 journalists for every white nationalist at yesterday’s event precisely because the news media was testing its hypothesis. ...

CNN and most of the other news outlets made a bet on yesterday’s story. They went all in. They sent the big guns because if something had gone down, had the waking dragon of white supremacy lashed out, they needed to be there. But a bet is a bet. As it turned out, the damning display of a racist America they placed their chips on crapped out. So what is their loss?

That’s the key question. What do these outlets lose by being wrong about this? What they should lose is a bit of certainty about their underlying assumptions. Everyone who covers politics and culture is wrong a lot. That’s most of the job. The rest of the job is to say when you’re wrong and work through why. Yesterday the big news media got it wrong.

On those nights when only 20 people showed up at our show, I’d sit with my wife and coproducer and we’d say, “What did we do wrong?” It is my sincere hope that Kessler and everyone who marched with him yesterday ask themselves that question and turn towards a better path. But the news media has questions to answer too, and they aren’t easy ones. The drastic decline in attendance for Unite the Right this year is unambiguously good, but there is still good reason to feel uneasy. How should this be covered? At the very least, honestly.
   178. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:30 AM (#5726199)
At one time North America was an unsettled continent


When was this, 10,000 years ago when the Bering Strait became a land bridge?

   179. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:32 AM (#5726200)
So to be clear, you think anyone who becomes a citizen should be allowed to engage in chain migration? How about anyone with permanent residence ("green card")?

I don't have a problem with naturalized citizens sponsoring their parents, but I'm less sanguine about sponsoring a large number of siblings or other relatives, and my understanding is that current law sets some limits on how many may be admitted annually in those categories. Congress can tinker with the process if it likes. The problem with large-scale illegal immigration is that it makes it extremely difficult for Congress to set policy for legal immigration since illegal immigrants ignore what Congress enacts.
   180. OCF Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:41 AM (#5726201)
At one time North America was an unsettled continent, the United States had an open frontier, and there were virtually no restrictions on immigration. As circumstances changed, so did the law, and people are no longer allowed to self-select their own admission.

Total whitewash. The restriction of immigration to the U.S. has always, always been about nativism and bigotry. The first to be restricted were the Chinese, who were excluded in the late 19th century, when there was still a wide-open continent (with Chinese laborers building railroads to span it). I read somewhere that the Bing cherry is named for a Chinese employee of an Oregon orchard owner - but after that man traveled to China for some family emergency, he never could come back to Oregon. The great slamming of the door in the the 1920's was very much a reaction to those mentioned in post 163 - Jews, Poles, Italians, and so on. Maybe the Klan didn't write that law but they helped set the tone of the national opinion that led to that law.
   181. greenback slays lewks Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:53 AM (#5726203)
The problem with large-scale illegal immigration is that it makes it extremely difficult for Congress to set policy for legal immigration since illegal immigrants ignore what Congress enacts.

"If you outlaw immigration, then we'll only have illegal immigration." There's an obvious conclusion here, but I guess it will take years to reach that point.

This isn't a convincing argument about the political process BTW. Congress will act when motivated. Congress won't act though, because elites want lots of immigration and the much more voluminous proletariat, most notably the white trash, doesn't. I know, I know, opinion polls say X, but you don't get Janet Napolitano and the deporter-in-chief when the immigration-coddling party is in power, if the polls accurately represented the electorate.
   182. Laser Man Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:54 AM (#5726204)
I don't have a problem with naturalized citizens sponsoring their parents,
The reason that people are making a big deal about Melania's parents becoming citizens is that Trump laid out his "must-haves" in exchange for DACA:
1) $25B for the wall
2) End the visa lottery
3) End chain migration - limit the Family Reunification to only spouses and minor children. It specifically EXCLUDED parents.

Business Insider - Trump DACA Requirements
   183. OCF Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:55 AM (#5726205)
If you ask me if my own ancestors immigrated legally, how would I answer? My ancestors immigrated; at the time they did so, there was no concept of "legal" or "illegal."
   184. greenback slays lewks Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:08 AM (#5726208)
David Marcus in the Federalist link in #177 kinda missed the point, which isn't a surprise. To borrow from Slate:

In the year since Charlottesville, many in the alt-right movement have been forced from online fundraising, social media, and publishing platforms. They have been forced, too, from the streets and their workplaces by anti-fascist activists whose tactics were widely maligned as counterproductive by a number of pundits throughout the past year. Confrontation, doxing, and de-platforming, conventional wisdom went, could bolster the movement’s claims to martyrdom and repression and might ultimately embolden its leaders. Precisely the opposite has happened. Unite the Right holdout Richard Spencer, still perhaps the alt-right’s most prominent figure, has spoken frankly about the challenge antifa has posed to his own organizing efforts ever since he was punched in the face by a protester on Inauguration Day in 2017. In March, he announced that he would no longer hold well-publicized public events. “When they become violent clashes and pitched battles, they aren’t fun,” he said. “Antifa is winning.” Andrew Anglin of the flagship neo-Nazi site the Daily Stormer was among the alt-right figures who warned followers not to participate in Sunday’s rally. “This isn’t the same as the little demonstrations we did before Charlottesville,” he wrote in a post last week. “If you show up at this event, and you are identified, your life will be ruined. You won’t be able to get into a university or get a good job, you probably won’t be able to even get into a trade school or join a union.”

This wariness and Kessler’s humiliation on Sunday suggest that the alt-right’s days as a public-facing movement might be numbered for now, which isn’t to say that the movement is dead. It seems plausible, in fact, that sympathizers might be more willing to join up if leaders aren’t asking them to risk physical harm or reputational damage in public demonstrations. The alt-right began as an online subculture and will remain one with real staying power, given the salience of far-right ideology among more Americans than we, until very recently, have been willing to admit.

So this isn't over. But Anglin's line about doxing is a reminder that there are other powerful institutions besides the federal government that can make your life miserable and that still respond to public shaming. Naturally that public shaming process is facilitated by heavy media coverage.
   185. zenbitz Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:33 AM (#5726209)
you probably won’t be able to even get into a trade school or join a union.”


Which is fine since the party you support hates these things and wishes to destroy them.

Is this were us strong minded liberals chastise Antifa for driving white supremacist scum into the the dark underground, instead of leaving them exposed to the disinfectant of the light?
   186. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 06:43 AM (#5726212)
Oh yeah, *your* party is in great shape.

Tell us about trickle-down economics, daddy!


The average Republican is a Creationist. I can see why such open, reality-hostile stupidity would be appealing to someone like Juan, who is a low-watt bulb even by Sweathog standards.
   187. . Posted: August 14, 2018 at 07:19 AM (#5726213)
The going narrative in our newspapers and cable news shows is that the Trump presidency has emboldened white supremacists, that they are no longer ashamed. After all, the president is winking at them.


And some of us patiently asked for evidence of this hypothesis, using history and numbers, and patiently examined it in the spirit of a Bill James examining the real utility of the RBI -- and those of us who did were called "racists" and "fascist enablers."

And then the weekend came and two dozen "white nationalists" showed up at what was supposed to be a big "anniversary" march of the "emboldened white supremacists" and those of us who paid attention and noticed that only "two dozen" showed up were again called "racist."

So, JE, to answer your question -- that's what this place has become. The TDS side invents a bunch of stuff, sane people on the center-left point out the inventions, the TDS side shouts "racist." That's what this place is now.
   188. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 07:21 AM (#5726214)
The reason that people are making a big deal about Melania's parents becoming citizens is that Trump laid out his "must-haves" in exchange for DACA:
1) $25B for the wall
2) End the visa lottery
3) End chain migration - limit the Family Reunification to only spouses and minor children. It specifically EXCLUDED parents.


Surely it wasn’t meant to exclude people personally vetted by the president of the United States of America.
   189. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 07:22 AM (#5726215)
So, JE, to answer your question -- that's what this place has become


A place where dimwits cosplay as Fake Lawyers.
   190. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 07:56 AM (#5726216)
Everyone's disinterest in Utica's politics is disheartening.

Here's some of the aftermath -
Divided by four lanes of traffic, the opposing sides spent hours trading chants, cheers and occasional insults. That left cars pinned between two lines of dueling demonstrators.

Stuck in sluggish traffic, drivers showed support for one side or another. Some shouted vulgarities about Trump, others hurled insults at his protesters. A pair of motorcyclists circled the block with giant Trump flags, revving their engines to drown out protesters.

The anti-Trump demonstrators outside greatly outnumbered the supporters. There appeared to be at least 500 protesters, compared to about 100 Trump supporters. Cops on the street weren't able to provide a crowd estimate.
Daniel Jezer, Rabbi emeritus of Congregation Beth Solom-Chevra Shas and an adjunct professor at Le Moyne College, said he got stuck behind the President's motorcade on the Thruway during their drive into Utica.

Jezer ran through the 10 Commandments, denouncing Trump throughout his speech.

"Trump is not only a disaster," Jezer said in a quiet moment afterward, "he betrayed the values of this country. Claudia Tenney is right along with him. They're a great danger to this country."
(As a note I'm not sure who got it wrong, the Rabbi or the reporter, as Trump wasn't on the thruway, he was out Route 49, which runs parallel - there's no entrance to the thruway where he landed.)


Here's a bit about the speech, which I'm not going to watch -
Trump spoke for about 35 minutes inside a banquet hall at the Hotel Utica packed with more than 300 people, according to one of the guests, Randy Potter, regional director of Central New York for Trump.

"It was notable for the heat," Potter said after the event. "Some people had to be escorted out to cool down. It was very, very hot."

Trump, who was due to speak for 15 minutes, ended up going on an extended speech in which he asked Republican supporters to help elect Tenney and the GOP's U.S. Senate candidate, Chele Farley, who was in attendance.

But the president spent more time criticizing Gov. Andrew Cuomo, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, D-N.Y., and other Democrats rather than touting Republicans.
Few elected Republicans attended the fundraiser. Potter said he did not see any of Tenney's GOP House colleagues or members of the state Assembly and Senate.

Madison County Sheriff Todd Hood was among the elected officials in attendance from Central New York. He was joined by Laura Lavine, who ran an unsuccessful campaign for Syracuse mayor last year, and her brother, Gary Lavine, a longtime Republican presidential delegate.
Gotta wonder a bit how Tenney feels about this Presidential support this morning with that all-star lineup joining them.
   191. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:05 AM (#5726218)
Good grief, dude, I'm still unclear how saying you're a lily white cul-de-sac resident constitutes a personal attack. And you claim it's a personal attack, but not at all offended? LMAO.


You called me names and resorted to a long standing attack against me. And despite your bewilderment (which I wouldn't advertise if I were you) I can recognize a personal attack and not be offended. Those are two separate things, you choose to address me or the question (you choose me and ignored the question), I choose not to be offended. See how that works?

Anyway I (and everyone else) has noticed that you still have refused to answer the question. Do you have any complaints about the person in question, or is it all related to criticism Israel and, of course, extra mean criticism of Israel.
   192. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:46 AM (#5726223)
And when Republicans keep calling measures like universal health insurance "socialism", is it any wonder that "socialism" becomes more appealing?

Shorter Andy: The evil Republicans tricked us into liking socialism!


Shorter JE: Anything that helps ordinary people is leading us down the primrose path to Chavez and Stalin.

And how surprising that you don't bother to respond to David Glosser's scathing commentary on his nephew's racist hypocrisy about immigration. But then to you the only racism / nativism worth worrying about is when it's directed against Jews. You and Stephen Miller are two terrific poster boys for Jewish ethics, womp womp division.
   193. dlf Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:47 AM (#5726224)
Everyone's disinterest in Utica's politics is disheartening.


Utica is disheartening.

Daniel Jezer, Rabbi emeritus of Congregation Beth Solom-Chevra Shas ...


You wouldn't happen, by chance, to know Stan Gerstein, now Rabbi emeritus of Temple Beth El in Utica? Long ago when he was at a former congregation in a much warmer part of the country, his lovely wife freaked out when their son and I made a big pot of shrimp in their kosher kitchen.
   194. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:52 AM (#5726225)
Good grief, dude, I'm still unclear how saying you're a lily white cul-de-sac resident constitutes a personal attack. And you claim it's a personal attack, but not at all offended? LMAO.

You called me names and resorted to a long standing attack against me.


I don't see it as an attack, more of a grudging acknowledgement that they lack cul-de-sack. They're all cul-de-sackless. I can see why that might make them upset.
   195. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:52 AM (#5726226)
Stephen Miller Is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.
This is dumb on multiple levels. Start with the fact that cries of hypocrisy are almost always pure ad hominem. Whether Miller is a hypocrite has nothing to do with whether the things he espouses are good or bad. Second, cries of hypocrisy are almost always wrong. Things that aren't hypocrisy:

1) Changing your mind about something.
2) Using a policy and then trying to change the policy.
3) Having benefitted from someone else's use of a policy and then trying to change the policy.

Here's what hypocrisy: doing something while simultaneously condemning other people for doing it. (Or not doing something while condemning others for not doing it.)


As described, Miller's situation falls into category #3. There is zero hypocrisy there. He may be right, he may be wrong, he may be evil incarnate. But he's not a hypocrite. Not based on that. (EDIT: And, again, just to reiterate: even if he were a hypocrite, that would have no bearing on whether his position is good or bad.)


The argument is just a species of poisoning the well; it's laying the groundwork to claim that nobody can ever legitimately be in favor of reducing immigration.
   196. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:52 AM (#5726227)
On those nights when only 20 people showed up at our show, I’d sit with my wife and coproducer and we’d say, “What did we do wrong?” It is my sincere hope that Kessler and everyone who marched with him yesterday ask themselves that question and turn towards a better path.


But they already have. They're working themselves into the mainstream of the GOP. They're already helping to formulate Trump's immigration policies, and any difference in the rhetoric between theirs and Stephen Miller's is strictly a matter of detail.
   197. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:53 AM (#5726228)

You wouldn't happen, by chance, to know Stan Gerstein, now Rabbi emeritus of Temple Beth El in Utica? Long ago when he was at a former congregation in a much warmer part of the country, his lovely wife freaked out when their son and I made a big pot of shrimp in their kosher kitchen.
Why exactly would you do such a thing?
   198. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:56 AM (#5726229)
The illegal work allegation has never been proven, nor has the exact nature of Melania's visa been established.


Proven beyond a reasonable doubt? No. But her own words betray her. She described having to leave the country frequently while working as per her visa requirements. Immigrants with green cards don't have to do that. People with tourist visas do, and it is illegal to work on a tourist visa. It's pretty clear, if not up to strict courtroom standards. Now, ask yourself if you would give a fraction of the consideration to someone on the other side and you'll have your answer.
   199. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:57 AM (#5726230)
Things that aren't hypocrisy:

1) Changing your mind about something.


You mean like "I voted for it before voted against it"?
   200. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:00 AM (#5726233)
You mean like "I voted for it before voted against it"?

"In 2004, I needed to vote for something or else my constituents would vote me out of office. In 2018, I need to vote against something or my constituents will vote me out of office."
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