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Monday, August 13, 2018

OTP 2018 August 13: ‘Don’t confuse sports with politics,’ Kosovo tells Bosnia

Kosovo’s team was scheduled to play against the Bosnia and Herzegovina side on Thursday, the first day of the tournament which runs until August 16.

However the Kosovo Basketball Federation (FBK) told local media that by late Wednesday it still had not received an answer from Bosnia’s nearest embassy in Skopje, the capital of Macedonia, about the status of the team’s visa applications.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 13, 2018 at 08:31 AM | 1897 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   201. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:07 AM (#5726234)
3) Having benefitted from someone else's use of a policy and then trying to change the policy.


Hey, just be up front and say, "In a more just world my ancestors should never have been allowed to leave Belarus and defile our American soil." Pretending it never happened makes you look shifty and disingenuous. Don't be cul-de-sackless.

Didn't our Little Lord grudgingly admit that we never should have allowed the goombah hordes like his family into the country when they clearly brought the twin scourges of organized crime and Popery with them? Basically MS13 without tattoos.
   202. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5726237)
Other's mileage may vary, but I don't need the extra special layer of hypocrisy to find Trump and his policies odious. It is just coal to Newcastle, owls to Athens, at this point.
   203. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5726239)
But they already have. They're working themselves into the mainstream of the GOP.
Cite? Because when only 20 asshat clowns show up to a supposedly yuge rally in the nation's capital, maybe that's evidence no such thing has happened, despite your fervent wishes?
They're already helping to formulate Trump's immigration policies, and any difference in the rhetoric between theirs and Stephen Miller's is strictly a matter of detail.
Just because you don't like something doesn't make it racist, let alone Nazi racist.
   204. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5726241)
Why exactly would you do such a thing?
To protest Israeli policies. Duh.
   205. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5726242)
Boy, the fat, lazy, bald, spray-tanned half-wit in the White House really went on a Twitter bender. He literally called Omarosa a dog.
   206. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5726244)
And how surprising that you don't bother to respond to David Glosser's scathing commentary on his nephew's racist hypocrisy about immigration. But then to you the only racism / nativism worth worrying about is when it's directed against Jews. You and Stephen Miller are two terrific poster boys for Jewish ethics, womp womp division.
What's to respond to, other than, as noted above, you believe anyone who's opposed to high levels of legal immigration is a racist? And judging by the last sentence of your excerpt, you're pretty much calling me a racist, never mind that I support high numbers of legal immigrants. Awesome.
   207. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5726248)
And judging by the last sentence of your excerpt, you're pretty much calling me a racist


You can't be racist, you're Puerto Rican!
   208. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5726251)
Things that aren't hypocrisy:

1) Changing your mind about something.
2) Using a policy and then trying to change the policy.
3) Having benefitted from someone else's use of a policy and then trying to change the policy.

Here's what hypocrisy: doing something while simultaneously condemning other people for doing it. (Or not doing something while condemning others for not doing it.)

As described, Miller's situation falls into category #3. There is zero hypocrisy there. He may be right, he may be wrong, he may be evil incarnate. But he's not a hypocrite. Not based on that.


Stephen Miller's words and actions speak for themselves, and they're based on the exact sort of worldview that those who wanted to restrict Jewish immigration had 100 years ago: We have to protect ourselves from being overrun by alien hordes who defile our country and can never assimilate into our culture. His uncle speaks to the values that have made our country a beacon to the world, while Miller speaks to the values of alt-right lite. For a Jew to embrace a worldview like Miller's should be an embarrassment to anyone of that faith. Whether he's an evil hypocrite or merely evil incarnate is a question I'll leave to Webster's.

The argument is just a species of poisoning the well; it's laying the groundwork to claim that nobody can ever legitimately be in favor of reducing immigration.

People can favor reducing immigration for a whole host of arguable reasons, but not when they employ rhetoric like Miller's. In a better world, people like Miller would be ostracized from decent society and confined to ranting on Breitbart, not allowed to influence policy in the White House.



   209. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5726252)
What's to respond to,
Andy, of course. Half his absurd number of posts at BBTF are, “Hey, over here! Look at me! Why aren’t people paying enough attention to me? Hey, I’m over here!”
   210. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5726253)
So, JE, to answer your question -- that's what this place has become. The TDS side invents a bunch of stuff, sane people on the center-left point out the inventions, the TDS side shouts "racist." That's what this place is now.
" #### you and everything you stand for " is now deemed normal discourse here. But that's a-ok because Misirlou can't/won't distinguish Clapper from Jason Kessler and Andy is now reduced to comparing me to someone he's convinced is an open racist.
   211. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5726255)
Andy, of course. Half his absurd number of posts at BBTF are, “Hey, over here! Look at me! Why aren’t people paying enough attention to me? Hey, I’m over here!”
And the other half is llitle more than "But but but Trump!"
   212. dlf Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5726256)
Why exactly would you do such a thing?


a. Shrimp is delicious, b. it was their son's idea, c. their son was an incredible chef, later going on to run, among other places, the kitchen at Commander's Palace in New Orleans before going corporate, and d. see (a). The Rabbi got a kick out of it; his wife ... um ... didn't.

Not sure what part of NJ you live in or how long you've been there, but four decades back Stan was the Rabbi at a congregation in Teaneck.
   213. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5726257)
People can favor reducing immigration for a whole host of arguable reasons,
Have you ever found someone who wanted to reduce legal or illegal immigration that you didn’t call a racist?
   214. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5726258)
Back from the polls.

Both of our Dem senators here in MN are facing Primary challenges. Amy Klobuchar’s is a passionate man named Leonard J. Richards, who is campaigning from prison, as he’s currently serving a life sentence for an ALLEGED double-murder committed in 1991.

Those in the loop know his conviction was politically motivated—The Powers That Be wanted to silence a powerful leftist voice, so they rigged up whatever charges they thought could stick after he killed those two people. Shameless.

Needless to say, he got my vote.
   215. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5726260)
People can favor reducing immigration for a whole host of arguable reasons, but not when they employ rhetoric like Miller's.
What racist rhetoric is Miller using?
   216. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5726261)
Not sure what part of NJ you live in or how long you've been there, but four decades back Stan was the Rabbi at a congregation in Teaneck.
Not even close to overlap in time or space. I’ve lived in Union County for 19 years, and lived in the Princeton area for 6 years before that. Before that, grew up and lived in Maryland. (Hence being an Os fan.)
   217. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5726268)
What racist rhetoric is Miller using?
I guarantee that Andy has never listened to a Miller speech or read anything Miller has written. But I’m sure he can plagiarize something for you from the SPLC’s website to attempt to answer your question.
   218. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5726269)
DAVOS: The Powers That Be wanted to silence a powerful leftist voice, so they rigged up whatever charges they thought could stick after he killed those two people. Shameless. Needless to say, he got my vote.
In 1991, after two trials, he was convicted of murdering Richard Stratton, a young lawyer he had engaged to handle some of his organizational matters. Alerted by Richards’ girlfriend, police had found Richards in the basement of his house in a bloody scene in which he was engaged in chopping up Stratton’s body, apparently with the intention of burying it beneath the basement floor.
Was hatchet-murdering Klobuchar on his platform?


EDIT: Here some more about your poor, put-upon hero, Davos - -

I guess voting for Stein just wasn't edgy enough. Christ.
   219. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5726271)
Yeah, sorry. I come down I81 from time to time, but never venture east from there. Sometimes, between Cicero and Homer, maybe in Syracuse, I'll wonder about the ancient Romans who colonised the area, but then disappeared leaving only placenames. But, like, I don't wonder hard enough to get out of my car. I've been to Gariannonum and Hadrian's Wall - it was enough.
   220. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5726274)
It was self defense.
   221. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5726277)
People can favor reducing immigration for a whole host of arguable reasons, but not when they employ rhetoric like Miller's.

What racist rhetoric is Miller using?


Here, begin with this article from Haaretz.

Richard Spencer once described himself as having been "mentored" by Miller. But maybe he was referring to Miller's appreciation of Duke's lacrosse team, and not about his racial views.

and Andy is now reduced to comparing me to someone he's convinced is an open racist.

So just how would you describe Jason Miller? A conservative in a hurry?

Sorry, JE, but when you lie down with dogs, you're going to wake up with fleas. If you consider Stephen Miller's views as being within the legitimate framework of an immigration discussion, that says a lot more about you than you might want to admit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you ever found someone who wanted to reduce legal or illegal immigration that you didn’t call a racist?

Sure: Anyone who doesn't use racist or nativist rhetoric to justify their views, including rhetoric about "preserving 'our' culture" or spreading lies about crime rates among immigrants.
   222. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5726278)
It was self defense.
By the time he was jailed, Richards had set up more than fifty trusts and non-profit organizations, in Minnesota, Montana, Florida, South Dakota, and Washington DC. They were all designed to route the money he had made off his sister's illnesses into his hands with as few legal and tax consequences as possible.
Davo, you're basically the reason we can't have nice things.
   223. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5726281)
By the time he was jailed, Richards had set up more than fifty trusts and non-profit organizations, in Minnesota, Montana, Florida, South Dakota, and Washington DC. They were all designed to route the money he had made off his sister's illnesses into his hands with as few legal and tax consequences as possible.

That makes him smart.
   224. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5726282)
Richard Spencer once described himself as having been "mentored" by Miller.
Here's Miller in the Mother Jones article Ha'aretz cited:“I have absolutely no relationship with Mr. Spencer,” he said in an email that month. “I completely repudiate his views, and his claims are 100 percent false.”
   225. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5726284)
I guarantee that Andy has never listened to a Miller speech or read anything Miller has written. But I’m sure he can plagiarize something for you from the SPLC’s website to attempt to answer your question.
And of course calling out his dear SPLC is racist too.
   226. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5726292)
   227. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5726294)
Call-out culture is for bullies. Call thyself out. ;)
   228. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5726295)
That makes him smart.

A hatchet murderer who is smart about committing fraud. If only the rest of us were as progressive as you.
   229. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5726301)
Jeez, sorry he fails your purity test. Let me guess: “he’s not even a Democrat!”

You DNC cultists are all the same.
   230. dlf Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5726302)
National Journal's Josh Kraushaar vs. Yahoo's Jeff Passan on Simpson, Soto, and racism.


Setting aside the underlying issue where the Braves announcer once again was an idiot whether racially motivated or not, Kraushaar has mistaken Don Sutton for Joe Simpson. The HOF hurler should be offended.
   231. Traderdave Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5726303)
Could regular OTPers who know the various personalities here better that I do please clue me in on Davos: is he joking and trolling or does he sincerely support an imprisoned murderer for Senate?


   232. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5726305)
National Journal's Josh Kraushaar vs. Yahoo's Jeff Passan on Simpson, Soto, and racism.

I thought they did bone scans now. The Twins did so when they signed Miguel Sano -- which was way back in 2009 now. AgeGate was two decades ago.
   233. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5726306)

EDIT: Here some more about your poor, put-upon hero, Davos - -

I guess voting for Stein just wasn't edgy enough. Christ.
Um, come on. I'm not a fan of Davos and his Chomskyite politics, but he's obviously joking here.
   234. zenbitz Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5726307)
Unsurprisingly, that is a very technical and dare I say pedantic definition of hypocrisy.

I assume correct though.
   235. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5726308)
I mean, ANYONE is better than Klobuchar.

Plus, Richards only killed two people (that we know of). Klobuchar has killed THOUSANDS in Libya, Yemen and Afghanistan. (And unlike Richards, she didn’t even have the common courtesy to clean up the mess afterwards.)
   236. zenbitz Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5726310)
Have you ever found someone who wanted to reduce legal or illegal immigration that you didn’t call a racist?


Has JE ever found someone who criticized Israel and not called them an anti-semite?

Wait did I just do a redirected whatabout? Is that worth extra points? Can I het a ruling?
   237. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5726314)
As of this morning, ways in which the leader of the GOP has referred to African Americans:

Low IQ
Dumb
Dog
Animals
   238. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5726317)
Jeez, sorry he fails your purity test. Let me guess: “he’s not even a Democrat!”

You DNC cultists are all the same.


The key to good trolling is subtlety.
   239. Shredder Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5726319)
Klobuchar has killed THOUSANDS in Libya, Yemen and Afghanistan.
Wow, she sounds pretty bad-ass. Think of how much money we could save on military spending if more Senators were so committed to personally killing thousands of Libyans, Yemenis, and Afghans. But she kind of dropped the ball on killing Iraqis, so that's a mark against her.
   240. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5726323)
What racist rhetoric is Miller using?

Here, begin with this article from Haaretz.
The article has almost no quotes from Miller in it, and none of them involve racist rhetoric. So, um, no. Here's every quote from Miller in the Haaretz article:

"No nation can have the policy that whole classes of people are immune from immigration law or enforcement."
"It was a simple decision by the administration to have a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry, period. The message is that no one is exempt from immigration law."

"That is why we do nothing for American holidays but everything for Mexican holidays," he wrote. "That is why history teachers denounce the U.S. as wickedly imperialistic, some supplementing standard history texts with something comfortably more liberal.
"That is why teachers insult and demean the president. That is why we invited a Muslim leader to the school to explain the splendor of Islam, but no such proclamation was ever made about America."

No racist rhetoric. (Not to mention that the last two quotes are from a LTTE he wrote in high school, 17 years ago.)

Richard Spencer once described himself as having been "mentored" by Miller. But maybe he was referring to Miller's appreciation of Duke's lacrosse team, and not about his racial views.
Setting aside that Spencer is expressly quoted in the very article that you cite that Miller was "not alt-right or a white nationalist or an identitarian," you really have trouble with the English language, don't you? Jason asked you about the racist rhetoric you claimed Miller espoused, not about Richard Spencer's opinion of Miller. Spencer describing himself as having been mentored by Miller is not "racist rhetoric" at all, let alone by Miller. (Also, I think you have this wrong anyway; I can find no such statement by Spencer, but I have found him saying the reverse -- that he mentored Miller.)
   241. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5726324)
Have you ever found someone who wanted to reduce legal or illegal immigration that you didn’t call a racist?

Sure: Anyone who doesn't use racist or nativist rhetoric to justify their views, including rhetoric about "preserving 'our' culture" or spreading lies about crime rates among immigrants.
So that's a no, you haven't. Hypothetical people, but no actual person.
   242. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5726325)
As of this morning, ways in which the leader of the GOP has referred to African Americans:

Low IQ
Dumb
Dog
Animals


But think of all the words he could have used but didn't. You don't give him any credit for self-control.
   243. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5726327)
Not that I support axe murderers for Congress – in fact I am strongly against Ted Cruz, who as widely known has no alibi for the Zodiac killings – but the issue of incarcerated candidates is important, e.g., in Irish history. Hunger striker Bobby Sands was elected to Parliament in 1981 while in prison (dying shortly thereafter), and UK law was later changed to make prisoners ineligible. The whole issue is extremely fraught, and I have no interest in getting into the merits of the case and the law. But the bottom line is that many nationalists considered Sands a political prisoner, and by voting for him they were making a very dramatic political statement. I think there's some merit in a supposedly free country to being able to vote for un-free candidates.
   244. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5726331)

Not that I support axe murderers for Congress – in fact I am strongly against Ted Cruz, who as widely known has no alibi for the Zodiac killings – but the issue of incarcerated candidates is important, e.g., in Irish history. Hunger striker Bobby Sands was elected to Parliament in 1981 while in prison (dying shortly thereafter), and UK law was later changed to make prisoners ineligible. The whole issue is extremely fraught, and I have no interest in getting into the merits of the case and the law. But the bottom line is that many nationalists considered Sands a political prisoner, and by voting for him they were making a very dramatic political statement. I think there's some merit in a supposedly free country to being able to vote for un-free candidates.
You don't have to go so far afield as to invent some imaginary country for an anecdote; Eugene Debs was a political prisoner in 1920 when he ran for president, and got 3% of the vote.
   245. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5726333)
So that's a no, you haven't. Hypothetical people, but no actual person.

So, nobody opposing immigration is even trying to come up with good reasons for it?

Aren't we supposed to be hearing more about economic anxiety? Lowering immigration means more jobs at higher wages for American citizens?
   246. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5726347)

So, nobody opposing immigration is even trying to come up with good reasons for it?
I guess that depends what one thinks is a good reason. I'm talking about Andy here, who assumes bad faith on the part of everyone who disagrees with him while only willing to grudgingly hypothetically talk about how people could in theory hold a good faith position.
   247. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5726348)
Has JE ever found someone who criticized Israel and not called them an anti-semite?
Sigh. Criticizing Bibi on a policy or policies that doesn't include accusing him of genocide isn't anti-Semitic.

Hoping that Allah will wake up the masses to Israel's evildoings? Another story.

If you still can't tell the difference between the two, that's on you.
   248. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5726350)
So, nobody opposing immigration is even trying to come up with good reasons for it?


How about for every 5 immigrants we allow into the country we expel one current citizen?
   249. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5726357)
Eugene Debs, good call, David. I reckon Andy voted for Debs :)

EDIT: Although it's likelier, come to think of it, that Andy spent the 1920s griping about Debs voters handing Harding the Presidency.
   250. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5726358)
As of this morning, ways in which the leader of the GOP has referred to African Americans:
Selective end points are fun!

Unless you're also claiming that Nancy Pelosi, Jonah Goldberg, and Justin Trudeau, among others are black?
   251. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5726364)
As of this morning, ways in which the leader of the GOP has referred to African Americans:

Selective end points are fun!

Unless you're also claiming that JUANABOUT Nancy Pelosi, Jonah Goldberg, and Justin Trudeau


I don't think this even meets the definition of "selective endpoints" but you always meet the definition of Juanaboutism.
   252. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5726367)
Selective end points are fun!

Er, what?
   253. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5726369)
Richard Spencer once described himself as having been "mentored" by Miller.

Here's Miller in the Mother Jones article Ha'aretz cited:“I have absolutely no relationship with Mr. Spencer,” he said in an email that month.


We know this is true because Miller says so, and not because such a relationship would be politically embarrassing.

“I completely repudiate his views, and his claims are 100 percent false.”

And we know this because he's never served under a president who lies about immigrant crime and uses racist memes on a constant basis, and because he has no influence on Trump's immigration policies.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Miller shares all of Spencer's views, and even his uncle wouldn't say he was a Nazi. But in terms of the way that they both view immigration as an existential threat to 'our' country, they're like two peas in a pod.

And of course calling out his dear SPLC is racist too.

First, I've never said that "calling out" SPLC is racist in itself. And in fact you yourself cited two examples where they'd gone over the line in their accusations,** and I agreed with your point.

What I have said is that the overwhelming majority of hate groups / extremists that SPLC has identified have provided us with ample evidence in their own words that the identifications were accurate. I've cited those words several times in response to your complaints, and never once did you even bother to acknowledge them, let alone admit their racist content. Do you want me to quote those words again and give you another mulligan?

** To be specific, the cases of Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali

---------------------------------------------------------------

Have you ever found someone who wanted to reduce legal or illegal immigration that you didn’t call a racist?

Sure: Anyone who doesn't use racist or nativist rhetoric to justify their views, including rhetoric about "preserving 'our' culture" or spreading lies about crime rates among immigrants.

So that's a no, you haven't. Hypothetical people, but no actual person.


Your reply implies that no such person actually exists, and that may be a reasonable inference if you confine your search to the Trump administration, certain Republican congressmen, and some of the more prominent anti-immigration groups aligned with him. But if you want an example you might look at yourself in the mirror.
   254. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5726373)
Selective end points are fun!

Er, what?


It burns my biscuits that because Juan is a sackless thin-skinned Fancy Lad snowflake, he has me blocked so he'll think you pointed this out first. BURNS. MY. BISCUITS.
   255. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5726374)
Er, what?
Today.

How about observing the obvious, that Trump goes nuclear on pretty much everyone, regardless of skin color, he thinks has crossed him?
   256. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5726378)
   257. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5726384)
How about observing the obvious


You're a big baby. We know.
   258. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5726392)
It's cherry-picking, not selective endpoints, right? For instance, think of the tens of thousands of conversations where Donald Trump didn't talk about grabbing #####, and yet what do people always focus on.
   259. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5726394)
It's cherry-picking, not selective endpoints, right? For instance, think of the tens of thousands of conversations where Donald Trump didn't talk about grabbing #####, and yet what do people always focus on.
No, Lassus selected tweets starting today at midnight and ending at 11.07am.
   260. Count Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5726402)
Y’all should be embarrassed by this Miller argument. Of course he’s racist. This is like arguing that Bannon or Trump aren’t racist.
   261. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5726403)
At one time North America was an unsettled continent, the United States had an open frontier, and there were virtually no restrictions on immigration. As circumstances changed, so did the law, and people are no longer allowed to self-select their own admission.


Total whitewash. The restriction of immigration to the U.S. has always, always been about nativism and bigotry. The first to be restricted were the Chinese, who were excluded in the late 19th century, when there was still a wide-open continent (with Chinese laborers building railroads to span it). I read somewhere that the Bing cherry is named for a Chinese employee of an Oregon orchard owner - but after that man traveled to China for some family emergency, he never could come back to Oregon. The great slamming of the door in the the 1920's was very much a reaction to those mentioned in post 163 - Jews, Poles, Italians, and so on. Maybe the Klan didn't write that law but they helped set the tone of the national opinion that led to that law.


Yes, Clapper's BS is thinly veiled nativist BS. It's precisely the sort of soft racism Trump has unleashed.

But let's look at the numbers, shall we?
"North America" has the lowest population density of any continent besides Australia (and Antarctica) - just slightly above South America, but far lower than Asia (by a factor of more than 4X), Europe (3X), and Africa (1.75X).

North American population growth has likewise been roughly tied with South America and Australia - all well outpaced by Asia, Europe, and Africa.

US population density ranks 177th out 235 Countries

US GDP per capita ranks 7th.

Of the nations ahead of US GDP per capita - only Norway and Iceland have lower population densities. Of the remaining non-micro states - Ireland is more than double US population density, Switzerland more than six fold.

By population growth rate - the US ranks 148th - below the world average.

By median age - the US is the 62nd oldest country in the world.

There simply is no mathematical or data-driven way to make the Trumpian case that the US "is all full up". The numbers simply do not support it - indeed, if you look at median age - the data strongly suggests that the US would benefit from increased immigration, particularly of people under 30 and particularly kids.

If there are non-nativist/racist arguments to be made for actually decreasing immigration - the data above does not support it.
   262. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5726406)
No, Lassus selected tweets starting today at midnight and ending at 11.07am.

I thought a bunch of those also from before. :-) If selective endpoints is your argument, then you are losing.

There are some people who try to categorize which nasty adjectives Trump uses for which people when he starts ranting into his twitter box. I believe Trudeau got words like 'mild', 'meek', 'weak', 'unfair'. He didn't labeled a dumb dog animal.

Its a silly argument. I'm not sure how it actually helps Trump for people to be having it, but somehow it does. :-)
   263. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5726407)
Oh - and 'Arable land'?
The US ranks first in the world --
   264. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5726408)
Today.

Today is a selective endpoint?


How about observing the obvious, that Trump goes nuclear on pretty much everyone, regardless of skin color, he thinks has crossed him?

These are what you consider valid defenses of the leader of the GOP.
   265. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5726412)
No, Lassus selected tweets starting today at midnight and ending at 11.07am.


There are so many objectionable Trump tweets, speeches and so forth that in order to speak to it you have to cherry pick, put time limits, or deploy a database*.

Just because one does that for logistical reasons doesn't absolve Trump of being objectionable.

* Note: I am an expert on analytics. I am expensive, but totally worth it.
   266. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5726413)
No, Lassus selected tweets starting today at midnight and ending at 11.07am.

"As of today" means "up until and including today", not "only today". I'll defer to BDC or gef if somehow it doesn't mean that in english.

It's also hilarious you thought he used all four of those between midnight and 11:00 AM with the same HEY, PRESIDENTS, YOU KNOW, CAN'T LIVE WITH 'EM, CAN'T KILL'EM, AM I RIGHT? you always have.
   267. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5726415)
How about observing the obvious, that Trump goes nuclear on pretty much everyone, regardless of skin color, he thinks has crossed him?

Y’all should be embarrassed by this Miller argument. Of course he’s racist. This is like arguing that Bannon or Trump aren’t racist.

By JE's logic, even Farrakhan can't be a racist, because he's criticized many numbers of blacks.
   268. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5726416)
Oh - and 'Arable land'?
The US ranks first in the world --


Who knew we had so many Arabs here!
   269. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5726422)
"Arable land" reminded me of this US land-use map which has been getting some play here and there, and is more fully documented in this Bloomberg article. It's kind of a weird mix of categories, but vivid when it comes to thinking about how "full" or "empty" this country is.
   270. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5726424)

Has JE ever found someone who criticized Israel and not called them an anti-semite?


247 is basically right. It's possible to criticise Israel without being an anti-semite, and I've seen it done. But there's a reason one encounters more criticism of Israel than all other countries combined, and it's not because Israel is somehow solely responsible for the vast majority of the world's problems. The United Nations Human Rights Council has condemned Israel specifically more than all other countries combined - does Israel commit the vast majority of the world's human rights abuses? When I walk by a protest on the street protesting a country other than the one I'm living in, it's Israel ~90% of the time. Is this a sensible reflection of Israel's influence on the citizens of (Canada, the UK, the US)?
   271. McCoy Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5726428)
247 is basically right. It's possible to criticise Israel without being an anti-semite, and I've seen it done. But there's a reason one encounters more criticism of Israel than all other countries combined, and it's not because Israel is somehow solely responsible for the vast majority of the world's problems. The United Nations Human Rights Council has condemned Israel specifically more than all other countries combined - does Israel commit the vast majority of the world's human rights abuses? When I walk by a protest on the street protesting a country other than the one I'm living in, it's Israel ~90% of the time. Is this a sensible reflection of Israel's influence on the citizens of (Canada, the UK, the US)?

But this is also an argument that goes toward why we give Israel so much importance. In the grand scheme of American lives, history, and future Israel is largely meaningless to us and yet we've expended a ton of resources and lives over Israel.
   272. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5726430)
Oh - and 'Arable land'?
The US ranks first in the world --


Settling large numbers of people on arable land is dumb. Use it for farming. Settle people in one huge metropolis extending from Quebec City to Ottawa - where clean water is fresh and abundant, where you can staple buildings directly to the bedrock, and where you're not ruining perfectly good farmland. Plus, you're putting buildings where people want to be indoors anyhow.
   273. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5726432)
reminded me of this US land-use map which has been getting some play here and there,

There have to be a MI/WI jokes going around. They wouldn't be idle & fallow if Hillary had visited?
   274. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5726439)
I have never heard of that’s not fair you’re just using the things he said most recently as a defense of anybody anywhere.
   275. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5726440)
247 is basically right. It's possible to criticise Israel without being an anti-semite, and I've seen it done

The problem is that too many people let their hatred of Israeli policies slide over into racist generalizations about Jews, and too many reflexive defenders of Israeli policies react to criticism of those policies the way Uncle Leo reacts to an overcooked hamburger.
   276. DavidFoss Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5726442)
I read somewhere that the Bing cherry is named for a Chinese employee of an Oregon orchard owner - but after that man traveled to China for some family emergency, he never could come back to Oregon.

So much talk about cherry picking today! Googling reveals more politics-themed anecdotes. The 'mother' of the big cherry cultivar is the Black Republican cherry. So-named because the original farmer was an abolitionist. For over a century, they didn't know who the cherry-daddy was. A recent paper did a DNA test (hopefully Maury was involved somehow) and they're now pretty sure that the Napoleon (or Royal Ann) cherry was the father.

Oregon also breeds berries. Every time I mention the marion berry, people start giggling and thing that I'm joking. The berry so good, it's like crack.
   277. Shredder Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5726444)
No, Lassus selected tweets starting today at midnight and ending at 11.07am.
Yeah, Lassus, but limiting yourself to this morning (which you didn't, but Jason seems to think you did), you've left out countless other racist insults that Trump has lobbed at African Americans.

But yeah, Jason's a moron who doesn't understand the concept of selective endpoints and why they should be criticized. He would have a point if Trump had shown nothing but effusive praise of African Americans for years and years, and just started insulting people this morning, but alas, we all know that's not true. Pretty sure he's blocking me too, so he won't see this, but that's cool.
   278. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5726445)
There simply is no mathematical or data-driven way to make the Trumpian case that the US "is all full up". The numbers simply do not support it . . .

The question wasn't whether the United States is "all full up", but whether there was a basis for differentiating the pre-1920s open immigration policies from those of today, and there is. We no longer have a mostly unsettled continent, a country with an open frontier, or a need for vast numbers of unskilled laborers. That there may still be a level of legal immigration that is beneficial to the country isn't an argument for allowing illegal immigration. A nation can have a welfare state or open borders, but both at the same time is a recipe for disaster.
   279. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5726454)
247 is basically right. It's possible to criticise Israel without being an anti-semite, and I've seen it done. But there's a reason one encounters more criticism of Israel than all other countries combined, and it's not because Israel is somehow solely responsible for the vast majority of the world's problems. The United Nations Human Rights Council has condemned Israel specifically more than all other countries combined - does Israel commit the vast majority of the world's human rights abuses? When I walk by a protest on the street protesting a country other than the one I'm living in, it's Israel ~90% of the time. Is this a sensible reflection of Israel's influence on the citizens of (Canada, the UK, the US)?

I generally agree with this, although there is a lot of room around a lot of edges. I don't think Jason reacts as even-handedly to criticism of any type on Israel's handling of Palestine as he implies; and as far as your example, I don't think that there are many particularly similar 1st-world situations that apply, which makes your questions as to why so much attention is paid a bit sideways.

I DO think that anti-Semitism is at the root of basically all criticism of Israel outside of the Palestine situation, and I do think that is an unfortunately, miserably rampant situation. However, the idea that people don't like to see a larger, stronger, more powerful force bomb the hell out of a smaller settler population exists quite easily and readily outside of prejudice and bigotry against Jews.
   280. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5726456)
The question wasn't whether the United States is "all full up", but whether there was a basis for differentiating the pre-1920s open immigration policies from those of today, and there is. We no longer have a mostly unsettled continent, a country with an open frontier, or a need for vast numbers of unskilled laborers. That there may still be a lawful level of legal immigration that is beneficial to the country isn't an argument for allowing illegal immigration. A nation can have a welfare state or open borders, but both at the same time is a recipe for disaster.


You're moving the goalposts - one can always tell when Trumpkins do so because suddenly, the words "open borders" appear. Yeah, I support (nominally) open borders, but I also recognize that's not going to happen... and the Trumpkin argument is for DECREASING immigration, full stop.

What's more - you're wrong about 'needing unskilled laborers'... Oh - we don't need them for the farms and foundries - sure... but that greying population? Changing your diaper (and yes, mine some day, too) isn't skilled labor.... Neither is driving us to the market or sweeping the floors at our rest homes.

The US is roughly about average compered to the developed world so far as proportion of population over 65 - well above the world average, but not in quite so bad a shape as places like Japan or England. However, our rate of proportional 65+ growth certainly puts us on track to get there.

Your kinder, gentler "isolationist" lebensraum is simply folly.

It doesn't need to open borders or even 5 million a year - but the rate certainly needs to increase.... and "merit" should basically mean "under 30". Bonus points for fertility if you like.
   281. Stormy JE Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5726459)
The question wasn't whether the United States is "all full up", but whether there was a basis for differentiating the pre-1920s open immigration policies from those of today, and there is. We no longer have a mostly unsettled continent, a country with an open frontier, or a need for vast numbers of unskilled laborers. That there may still be a level of legal immigration that is beneficial to the country isn't an argument for allowing illegal immigration. A nation can have a welfare state or open borders, but both at the same time is a recipe for disaster.
Good luck the second time around, Clapper, but chances are Zonk, count, and #### You Misirlou will continue suggesting you're a racist.
   282. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5726460)
The problem is that too many people let their hatred of Israeli policies slide over into racist generalizations about Jews,


No, the problem is the vast majority of people who're criticising Israel start with the hatred of Jews, then go from there to gussy it up as hatred of Israeli policy. And so any decent Bayesian is applying priors that someone criticising Israel is doing it because they're an anti-semite, because that's why the vast majority of them are doing it. Not everybody - but if you turn up at a white heritage day rally looking for information on where your ancestors might've come from, and when they came to America - well, that's not what people will assume about why you're there.

Israel gets way more criticism for it's policies than China+Burma+Sudan+Saudi Arabia+Belarus+Turkmenistan+++++ It's not because it's policies or human rights record are worse than that sum (or really, any of them individually).
   283. McCoy Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5726462)
We no longer have a mostly unsettled continent, a country with an open frontier, or a need for vast numbers of unskilled laborers.

If this is the reason to close doors then they absolutely had no reason to close the doors in the 1920's. The reality is that we probably didn't come close to this being a valid enough reason to close doors until the 1970's and large amounts of immigration from 1920's on might very well have prevented or proved the excuse for closing the door in the 1970's to be false.

A nation can have a welfare state or open borders, but both at the same time is a recipe for disaster.

That's a bit of a stretch and one that ignores some things or possibly pretends that every immigrant coming over here is going to be sitting out on the sidewalk smoking meth and collecting a government check.
   284. McCoy Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5726468)
Israel gets way more criticism for it's policies than China+Burma+Sudan+Saudi Arabia+Belarus+Turkmenistan+++++ It's not because it's policies or human rights record are worse than that sum (or really, any of them individually).

Probably because their impact far outweighs their usefulness to the global community. If Israel was a country in South America virtually nobody would give a fig about it.
   285. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5726475)

I thought a bunch of those also from before. :-) If selective endpoints is your argument, then you are losing.
He's right, here, though. You can't say, "Trump insulted X, Y, and Z, who are black, so he's racist." Trump is pretty much an equal opportunity insulter: if you're Putin, or if you praise or support Trump, then you're great/smart/nice/very fine people; criticize Trump and you're terrible/stupid/lying.
   286. Count Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5726478)
The anti immigrant people routinely lie about the benefits and drawbacks of immigration and demagogue against both legal and illegal immigrants (this is really soft pedaling it- half the GOP is now following trumps lead and trying to scare old people and nativists with MS13 bull #### as if that’s the face of immigration). . They supported sepretating the children from parents of asylum seekers and then repeatedly lied and said it wasn’t a deliberate policy and blamed the migrants. They want to take less refugees. They like the comically racist book Canp of the Saints and they worry about having Tom many Indian CEOs. Some, I assume, are good people.
   287. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5726479)
Good luck the second time around, Clapper, but chances are Zonk, count, and #### You Misirlou will continue suggesting you're a racist.


Maybe if you guys actually made your Trumpian arguments with, you know, data -- rather than hazy mythology and bullshit -- people would be less inclined to point out the obvious.

Would you like me to provide you with some further data? I've previously provided data on crime rates of immigrants vs native-born, higher education rates, public assistance rates, and entrepreneurial rates -- and immigrants in each category significantly outperform the native-born population.

So... if the country isn't full up... Clapper now acknowledges that.

And - if immigrants are actually far more likely to support/prop up the "welfare state" than they are to drain it...

Again - give me a non-racist reason to support lower immigration rates - with some data - and I'll consider it.

Thus far, all you Trumpkins have done is blah-blah-blahed a toxic brew of myth and bullshit.... myth and bullshit that NONE of the data supports.

If it isn't nativism, then tell me what it is... Hell - this is where you 'regular Trumpkins' are actually dumber than the special forces Trumpkins like SBB... at least he doesn't even bother to try to bullshit a mathematical or data-driven argument - he sticks with hazy "culture" nonsense.
   288. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5726480)
Israel gets way more criticism for it's policies than China+Burma+Sudan+Saudi Arabia+Belarus+Turkmenistan+++++

I may be not be paying proper attention, but I don't feel like I see a lot of media criticism or protests regarding Israel's policies in Burma and Belarus, or even China.
   289. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: August 14, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5726482)
More from Twitter this morning:
If we had a real Attorney General, this Witch Hunt would never have been started!
And then there's this:
When you give a crazed, crying lowlife a break, and give her a job at the White House, I guess it just didn’t work out. Good work by General Kelly for quickly firing that dog!
Which is quite a contrast from him on tape saying:
"No. Nobody even told me about it," the President replied. "You know, they run a big operation but I didn't know it. I didn't know that. Damn it, I don't love you leaving at all."
Which is it: Lying, clueless, or both?
   290. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5726484)
He's right, here, though. You can't say, "Trump insulted X, Y, and Z, who are black, so he's racist." Trump is pretty much an equal opportunity insulter: if you're Putin, or if you praise or support Trump, then you're great/smart/nice/very fine people; criticize Trump and you're terrible/stupid/lying.

Pretty sure that he doesn't call his white critics animals and dogs; less sure about LOW IQ and DUMB. I suppose I'd have to research.
   291. BDC Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5726485)
If Israel was a country in South America


I believe there was actually talk of that at one point. But it did not get far. Uganda was a more developed plan. At least, among British imperialists carving up the world. I am not sure how many Zionists were eager to go to Uganda.
   292. Traderdave Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5726492)
Was there ever a serious effort to partition a hunk of Germany to be a Jewish Homeland? Would have been fair, efficient, and have its security guaranteed by neighboring Great Powers.

   293. Traderdave Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5726499)
Manafort defense rests without calling a witness. Any of the lawyers here have a thought what that means or portends, if anything?
   294. BrianBrianson Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5726501)
I may be not be paying proper attention, but I don't feel like I see a lot of media criticism or protests regarding Israel's policies in Burma and Belarus, or even China.


Of course - in those countries, you don't protest or criticise as the media unless you're directed to do so. But walking down the street in Canada, the US, and the UK (the countries where I've lived), I've seen far more protests of Israel than those three countries combined (although I have seen the odd protest of China, mostly by Falun Gongers). Or, perhaps somewhat canonically, the United Nation Human Rights Council condemns Israel more than those three countries combined. Is that merit, or bias?
   295. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5726504)
The problem is that too many people let their hatred of Israeli policies slide over into racist generalizations about Jews,

No, the problem is the vast majority of people who're criticising Israel start with the hatred of Jews, then go from there to gussy it up as hatred of Israeli policy. And so any decent Bayesian is applying priors that someone criticising Israel is doing it because they're an anti-semite, because that's why the vast majority of them are doing it. Not everybody - but if you turn up at a white heritage day rally looking for information on where your ancestors might've come from, and when they came to America - well, that's not what people will assume about why you're there.


There are an awful lot of unsupported assumptions going on there, beginning with the idea that the "vast majority" of Israel's critics would be comfortable at some white heritage day rally.

Or to take it from the opposite direction, do you think that the great numbers of American Jews who are critical of Israeli settlements are anti-semites? Or in the slanderous buzzword that gets tossed around, are they "self-hating Jews"?
   296. McCoy Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5726507)
Would have been fair, efficient, and have its security guaranteed by neighboring Great Powers.

Because the Great Powers guaranteeing security worked out so well before.
   297. Lassus Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5726510)
Brian, I misread your sentence that I myself quoted. Clever, that. (I read it as criticisms of Israel REGARDING those countries, stupidly.)

I would revert back, then, to this as a reason for that:
...and as far as your example, I don't think that there are many particularly similar 1st-world situations (Israel/Palestine) that apply (to anywhere you mentioned, or anywhere else), which makes your questions as to why so much attention is paid a bit sideways.... the idea that people don't like to see a larger, stronger, more powerful force bomb the hell out of a smaller settler population exists quite easily and readily outside of prejudice and bigotry against Jews.
NOTE: I think anti-Semitism can be the root of even the criticism of Israel on the Palestine questions. But placing the majority of that criticism as anti-Semitic is a misunderstanding of human nature, IMO.
   298. Traderdave Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5726511)
Because the Great Powers guaranteeing security worked out so well before.


Germany was leveled, partitioned and occupied by foreign troops. Hard to get more guaranteed than that, which is a helluva lot safer than a sliver of sand surrounded by blood enemies.
   299. Howie Menckel Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5726516)
Manafort defense rests without calling a witness. Any of the lawyers here have a thought what that means or portends, if anything?

A prosecutor who was on MSNBC last night and who has appeared before that judge hundreds of times said putting Manafort on the stand would have been suicidal because said judge is of the sort that, if a witness seems uncooperative, is eager to take over the question themselves (made me think of examples from Law & Order!).

same prosecutor also said Manafort smells like toast. well, he didn't say that - but it was the takeaway.
   300. Morty Causa Posted: August 14, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5726519)
298

Exactly. Before that, before the War, there was no guarantee. The War effectuated a guarantee, one that was sustained right up to the creation of Israel and afterward, even until now. Sometimes (often sometimes), you criticize the ones you love more because you expect and want more from them.
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