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Monday, July 16, 2018

OTP 2018 July 16: Why Does President Trump Balk At Attending Baseball Games?

As the World Cup finale plays in my living room, it’s seems like the right time to reflect on “America’s pastime” – baseball – and its curious standing these days.

The sport gets it close-up on Tuesday night, when the Major-League All-Star Game is played in the nation’s capital. President Trump is not expected to be attendance, though he easily could zip over to the festivities upon his return from his meeting with Vladimir Putin.

Dating back to William Howard Taft in 1910, every president has done the season’s ceremonial first pitch at least once. So far, Trump’s twice declined to participate in that ritual.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM | 1502 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5710485)
Why Does President Trump Balk At Attending Baseball Games?


He probably doesn't want to run the risk of bumping into Chris Christie.
   2. McCoy Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5710497)
Because Nationals Park isn't called Trump Park. Plain and simple.

Well, the truth is probably that he doesn't want to mingle with the hoi polloi. The germophobe that he is.
   3. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5710507)
Also, outside of Victor Starfin, I don't think there are any Russians that play baseball.
   4. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5710510)
Well, the truth is probably that he doesn't want to mingle with the hoi polloi.


He doesn't do any appearance where he can't manage the optics. If he went to a public baseball game, he'd get boo'd. He's too fragile for that.
   5. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5710513)
He could always send John Kelly to do it for him, like all the hard stuff about being President (that doesn't involve treason).
   6. wjones Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5710516)
He doesn't do any appearance where he can't manage the optics. If he went to a public baseball game, he'd get boo'd. He's too fragile for that.

But wasn't he at the National Championship Football game?
   7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5710518)
From the previous thread:

Even NRO is coming around to reality. One doubts Juan, Ray or the regulars in the swamps of denial will join them.

That's David French, who's been critical of Trump for quite some time. National Review doesn't like to burn any bridges, and if and when Trump crashes and burns, they'll cite opinion pieces like this as if it represented the views of the entire editorial staff.

That said, what French writes couldn't be more contradictory to the Big Nothingburger crowd.
There will be much more analysis and dot-connecting in the coming days, some of it valuable and much of it specious. But for now here are four key takeaways [from the Grand Jury's indictments]:....

2. It’s now becoming increasingly clear why intelligence agencies believe that Russians were trying to help Trump and hurt Clinton — the scale of the attack on the Clinton campaign, the DCCC, and the DNC was troubling. And while there are past reports that the Russians attempted to hack Republicans, this indictment outlines a comprehensive and sustained effort against the Democrats and is silent about a similar conspiracy aimed at Republicans. Perhaps more information will emerge, but the available public evidence at this point bolsters the intelligence agencies’ unanimous conclusion that Russia tried to help Trump.

3. The indictment practically screams, “More information is coming!” — including additional information about Russian communication with American citizens. ...

4. This indictment makes it even more troubling that Trump mocks, denigrates, and undermines the Mueller investigation as a “witch hunt.” We now know that there was real wrongdoing; we just don’t yet know its extent.

We don’t yet know if Trump cooperated in any way with Russian schemes. But when we learn more about the extent of Russian efforts to disrupt the 2016 election (and aid Trump), when we remember that Donald Jr. actually tried to collude, when we ponder for more than a few moments the web of financial connections between senior Trump aides such as Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn and the Kremlin or Kremlin allies, and when we know that Russians contacted Trump friends and advisers to offer “dirt” on the Clinton campaign — well, Trump’s repeated demands that the investigation end become much less understandable.

Republicans were rightly outraged when Barack Obama opined about the pending Clinton-email investigation, and we have since learned that his gratuitous and public exoneration of the then–likely Democratic nominee created a headache for the FBI. Now it’s time for Republicans to be consistent. As Mueller reveals more facts about Russian interference and indicts more individuals for troubling crimes uncovered as part of his entirely legitimate investigation, it’s time for the GOP to tell the president that the hunt needs to continue, because the witches are very real.
   8. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5710520)
Trump angry baby balloons are coming to America multiple GFMs in multiple cities, as well as nifty little hand-helds now available.

Good.

Perhaps he'll feel unwelcome here, too and just spend the next couple years in Russia... never too early to get a headstart on that asylum seeking!
   9. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5710521)
@KT_So_It_Goes:
the key tenet of trumpism is America is always ####

things about America uberpatriot Donald Trump thinks are ####, an incomplete list:
•trade policies
•legal system
•governance system
•treaties
•media
•laws
•foreign policy
•military
•sports
•culture

sitting here trying to identify one tangible American thing Trump doesn’t think is complete #### about America and coming up totally empty
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5710524)
He doesn't do any appearance where he can't manage the optics. If he went to a public baseball game, he'd get boo'd. He's too fragile for that.

But wasn't he at the National Championship Football game?

Yeah, before the players took the field he walked out for the National Anthem, escorted by the military. The game was played in Atlanta between Georgia and Alabama, in a game largely attended by fat cat alumni donors and others who could afford paying scalpers' prices for tickets. It was about the safest of all safe spaces for a Trump appearance at a sporting event this side of the Daytona 500.
   11. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5710528)
Even NRO is coming around to reality. One doubts Juan, Ray or the regulars in the swamps of denial will join them.
That "even" makes double no sense here. Given that National Review was firmly against Trump from an early stage, saying "even NRO" is like saying, "Even Hillary doesn't like Trump." More importantly, though, there is no "NRO." There are individual writers at NRO. Some of them are pro-Trump, some are neutral, some are anti. That article was written by David French, who (a) has been anti-Trump from day one -- people may remember that there was about 36 hours when he was going to run against Trump before he decided not to; Evan McMullin was his pinch hitter -- and (b) has been defending Mueller from the beginning.

EDIT: Fizzy stuff for Andy; he can't be wrong all the time. (Even if he's incapable of not reposting the bulk of any article we're discussing.)

EDIT 2: French is wrong about one thing: "well, Trump’s repeated demands that the investigation end become much less understandable." Actually, it becomes much more understandable.
   12. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5710532)
880 on the old thread

TDS has helped that effort succeed beyond their wildest dreams.


And the words and actions of the "T" of the supposed TDS had nothing at all to do with it, I suppose?

Really, now...

   13. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5710537)
891

Bloomberg article on Trump's Turnberry: Inside Trump’s Money-Losing Scottish Golf Paradise


You mean it's...um...failing?
   14. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5710539)
899

Does Trump fish his own golf balls out of the hole?


Nah, he pays a Honduran $0.47/hour off the books to do that.
   15. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5710540)
EDIT 2: French is wrong about one thing: "well, Trump’s repeated demands that the investigation end become much less understandable." Actually, it becomes much more understandable.

That's certainly true if you're assuming French was solely addressing people capable of logic, but I'm assuming French was also addressing the part of his audience that's feeling tugged in opposing directions: In one direction by their conscience and common sense; and in the other direction by their atavistic political instincts. He's trying to give them the benefit of the doubt about their sincerity, which is seldom the worst approach to take when you're not merely preaching to the choir.
   16. DavidFoss Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5710541)
Turnberry was losing money when Trump bought it. That's supposedly how he was able to buy it. He supposedly paid cash too which is rare for Trump.

How does a course which was once in cycle of The (British) Open Championships courses lose money? Does St Andrews lose money?
   17. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5710547)
sitting here trying to identify one tangible American thing Trump doesn’t think is complete #### about America and coming up totally empty


McDonald's? And maybe also apple pie, if the ones from McDonald's count, and if he's allowed to put ketchup on them?
   18. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5710548)
919

Hacking a few party computers. Yep, a regular Pearl Harbor or Operation Barbarossa it was.


If you would kindly supply my office with your social security number and date of birth...
   19. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5710550)
Trump says he spoke with Putin and they agreed there is no collusion.

Satisfied now, TDSers?

If both Trump and Putin say there is no collusion and both Trump and Putin say that the Mueller probe is a witch hunt and both Trump and Putin say it's a terrible thing hurting US-Russia relations, well golly.... what more do you people need?
   20. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5710552)
931

Maybe. I think it's more that he thinks he can get away with collusion, just because he's president. He's playing Mickey the Dunce about Russia's involvement in the 2016 election, and all the while he's been helping Putin (attacking our NATO allies, refusing to sanction, etc). It's quite possible that he has a quid quo pro with Putin that involves real estate. It's possible that Putin has dirt on Trump and is blackmailing him.


Follow the money. Always follow the money.
   21. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5710555)
So let's get back to that article from a Moscow-based journalist.

Sean Illing
Has Putin made a puppet of Trump?

Mikhail Fishman
Of course. This is certainly what the Kremlin believes, and they’re acting accordingly. They're quite obviously playing Trump. They consider him a stupid, unstrategic politician. Putin is confident that he can manipulate Trump to his advantage, and he should be.

Sean Illing
In other words, Trump’s a useful idiot to them?

Mikhail Fishman
Exactly. The Kremlin is limited in their knowledge about what's going on in Washington, but they see the chaos and the confusion in Trump's administration. They see the clumsiness, the inexperience. Naturally, they're working to exploit that.


I know that by posting this I am contributing the to worsening of American/Russian relations, which I understand are at their historical nadir. Shame on me.
   22. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5710556)
939

So he's a birther even about his own father.


I don't think he even knows what's true and what isn't anymore. It's getting kind of like the Babe's called shot.
   23. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5710559)
I was sure you would choose the article about Kavanaugh piling up credit card debt purchasing Nationals tickets for this week's OTP. (The headline of that article is a bit sensationalist -- basically, Kavanaugh used his credit card to purchase season tickets for a group of friends, who subsequently paid him back and he paid off the cards.)

EDIT: Although now I see that article is a few days old, so maybe it was covered in the other thread...
   24. perros Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5710560)

You're not funny. Russia is no longer a leftist nation, and you know it, so cut the crap.


The USSR was fascist under Stalin, and in fact had infiltrated the US gov't at high levels. That doesn't mean Birchers weren't complete nutters.

Now we have a Democratic Party and a large section of the press yelling Trump Treason Traitor like a bunch of schoolkids playing Red Rover, and attacking anyone who dares question the simple-minded propaganda that has a long tradition going back at least as far as the Red Scare, a celebration of J. Edgar Hoover's secret police still using many of the same tactics, and a childlike trust that if a prosecutor indicts someone, they're guilty as charged.*

To make it as simple as possible: these tactics will be used to further fortify a police surveillance state that doesn't work except to squash domestic dissent and will be turned against any and all political opposition that challenges the current sorry way things be, The faith that if we just put our guys in charge and everything will be just swell is belied by the evidence like I gave regarding the expansion of anti-immigrant policing I posted yesterday.

Trump is terrible, but the means used to go after him matter intensely.
   25. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5710563)
@jdickerson:
Ambassador Huntsman said purpose of summit was "to hold the Russians accountable for what they did." When asked in the press confernce whether Russians did anything wrong in past the president said "we're all to blame."


@thomaswright08:
Putin: We will let Mueller question Russians if we can question US intelligence officers and others who are interfering in Russia, such as Bill Browder


@kfile:
So the president is raising fringe conspiracy theories about the DNC at a press conference with Russian president.


@oliverdarcy:
Anderson Cooper after presser: "You have been watching perhaps one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president..."


@allahpundit:
At this point I think it’d be a bigger scandal if Russian didn’t have something on him and he was saying all this #### because he really believes it


@ryanlizza:
Trump’s post-meeting statement was even worse than most imagined it would be. He stood next to Putin and attacked the American media and the Democratic Party but refused to confront Putin for attacking our democracy. Disgraceful.


@skinnerpm:
As a long time optimist and someone very experienced with the truth that most things are never as bad as they seem, this press conference by the US president is a literal national disaster. A national disaster.

At some point we do need to ask about fitness for office.

Off to help my local community with all my heart and soul but I’ll be honest, watching this press conference by our president has shaken me. Hard to overstate what just happened and what this means for our society and nation.

But I’m not gonna despair, work your corners & hold


@NatashaBertrand
Unreal. Asked whether he would hold Russia accountable for literally anything, Trump DOES NOT MENTION GEORGIA, MH-17, CRIMEA, UKRAINE, OR ELECTION INTERFERENCE. Says the US and Russia have "both" been "foolish," we've "both made mistakes." Then discusses his election victory.


@mkraju:
Stunning. Trump, asked directly who he believes: Putin or the US intelligence community on election meddling. He instead attacks the FBI for not going after DNC server and Clinton emails. “I don’t see any reason why it would be” Russia who attacked the US
   26. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5710567)
1010. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5710526)


863


(*) Hmmm, let's see. The right is in power and we're out of power. Seems like we have two options. One: Wait a couple years, mobilize, and vote them all out. Two: Spend the next two years saying a bunch of weird, deranged #### every single day and make it more weird and deranged as the two years progress.



Seems to me that DJT chose door #2 sometime in the middle of 2014.

OK, which of you lousy TDS-ers stole the playbook?
   27. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5710569)
Now we have a Democratic Party and a large section of the press yelling Trump Treason Traitor like a bunch of schoolkids playing Red Rover,


The fact that you're too goddamned stupid to see reality isn't our fault, son.
   28. perros Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5710570)
* Even Rosenstein tagged the DOJ presser 'no Americans invoved' and 'innocent until proven guilty', but let's not pretend anybody's reading anything not posted to Twitter.

-----

Again, think for a second -- it didn't take Mueller to know whatever the Russians were doing, and remember Obama saying he knew and told Putin personally "cut it out." The Mueller investigation is on track when it's following the dirty money, off it when it times its announcements for maximum political impact.

Rand Paul is not a traitor for pointing out the obvious.
   29. perros Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5710571)
The fact that you're too goddamned stupid to see reality isn't our fault, son.


What's stupid is your constant aping of your Klan ancestors and their stupid rope tricks. Not that anybody takes your pathetic displays of internet masculinity the least bit seriously.


   30. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5710574)

So he's a birther even about his own father.

I don't think he even knows what's true and what isn't anymore. It's getting kind of like the Babe's called shot.
As I've said many times over the last two years, Trump is a Frankfurtian Bullshitter, not a mere liar. To simplify a bit (the key part starts on page 16), the liar thinks to himself, "X is true, but it would be damaging if people knew X. So I will lie and say Not X." The Bullshitter says, "I don't care what's true. It's good for me if I say Y right now, so I will say Y right now." It's not that Trump doesn't know what's true -- though he often does not. It's that what the truth is in a given situation is utterly irrelevant to him.
   31. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5710575)
The USSR was fascist under Stalin, and in fact had infiltrated the US gov't at high levels. That doesn't mean Birchers weren't complete nutters.

Now we have a Democratic Party and a large section of the press yelling Trump Treason Traitor like a bunch of schoolkids playing Red Rover, and attacking anyone who dares question the simple-minded propaganda that has a long tradition going back at least as far as the Red Scare, a celebration of J. Edgar Hoover's secret police still using many of the same tactics, and a childlike trust that if a prosecutor indicts someone, they're guilty as charged.*

To make it as simple as possible: these tactics will be used to further fortify a police surveillance state that doesn't work except to squash domestic dissent and will be turned against any and all political opposition that challenges the current sorry way things be, The faith that if we just put our guys in charge and everything will be just swell is belied by the evidence like I gave regarding the expansion of anti-immigrant policing I posted yesterday.

Trump is terrible, but the means used to go after him matter intensely.


The USSR was Stalinist under Stalin. It's been much more fascist under Putin, leaning heavily on all the things every fascist regime ever has always leaned upon: hardcore nationalism, national prestige undermined by enemies at home and abroad, and a longing for the 'good old days' when the nation was respected, even feared... plus - all the suppression of civil liberties, freedoms, and human rights that go along with that.

Denying that it is absolutely farcical.

There's nothing inherently evil about Russia - though, terrible mismanagement and a highly stratified economic society dating back centuries to its tsarist days have, I think, left a lasting mark on its DNA....

But fine, sure - in terms of suppression of human rights and attempting to carve out and/or enforce its will on its neighbors, it's China... just with a much shittier economy.

We no more need to go war with Russia than we do China because we're not some GD superhero nation charged with setting right all the world's ills.

But FFS, sake... the idea that we shouldn't be too upset about a little hacking and election interference is just bonkers stupid. Spare me the dumbass "everybody does it". Yes, everybody does it. And everybody who it is done to investigates it. And everybody who it is done to levies repercussions and penalties against the doers. And there are diplomatic repercussions to that - and there should be.
   32. Traderdave Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5710577)
A question about handles:


Is -- the new SBB? If so, why can't he keep the same moniker?

What was ......'s previous handle?

Is Jess Franco SBB 2.0, or even SBB himself running a sock puppet? Or did JF have a previous handle that I might recognize?

   33. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5710578)
What's stupid is your constant aping of your Klan ancestors and their stupid rope tricks.


Yes. You're all in on "resistance" until it means doing something that might risk your lily white ass the slightest thing. We all know who you are already.
   34. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5710580)
Is -- the new SBB? If so, why can't he keep the same moniker?

What was ......'s previosu handle?


Both "--"" and "....." are SBB pseuds.

"Jess Franco" is not him.
   35. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5710581)
31

The USSR was Stalinist under Stalin. It's been much more fascist under Putin, leaning heavily on all the things every fascist regime ever has always leaned upon: hardcore nationalism, national prestige undermined by enemies at home and abroad, and a longing for the 'good old days' when the nation was respected, even feared... plus - all the suppression of civil liberties, freedoms, and human rights that go along with that.


Hmmmm...who does that sound like? It's a conclusion best left to the reader...

Oh, I can't even; not with a straight face.
   36. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5710582)
ut FFS, sake... the idea that we shouldn't be too upset about a little hacking and election interference is just bonkers stupid.


The Trumpers do this. You know they do this. You know why they do this. For Trumpers, defending Trump, and thus their "rationale" for aligning with Trump from the beginning, is more important than anything else. Ray and SBB (to the extent that he's not a bot) value "being right about Hillary not being electable" over any national good or interest. In defense of their irrational need to be "right" about Trump (and thus for all of Trump's crimes and misdemeanors to be "nothingburgers" from "TDS sufferers") they will contort themselves into any pretzel of "logic." All that matters is that they refuse to admit they were wrong. It's their inner Trump coming to the fore.
   37. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5710583)
So he's a birther even about his own father.

I don't think he even knows what's true and what isn't anymore. It's getting kind of like the Babe's called shot.


As I've said many times over the last two years, Trump is a Frankfurtian Bullshitter, not a mere liar. To simplify a bit (the key part starts on page 16), the liar thinks to himself, "X is true, but it would be damaging if people knew X. So I will lie and say Not X." The Bullshitter says, "I don't care what's true. It's good for me if I say Y right now, so I will say Y right now." It's not that Trump doesn't know what's true -- though he often does not. It's that what the truth is in a given situation is utterly irrelevant to him.


That's as cogent a distinction as I've heard. Thanks, David.
   38. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5710584)

Is -- the new SBB? If so, why can't he keep the same moniker?
He's a troll. Whatever helps him get attention.


Is Jess Franco SBB 2.0, or even SBB himself running a sock puppet? Or did JF have a previous handle that I might recognize?
OJ. Perros.
   39. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5710586)
The Trumpers do this. You know they do this. You know why they do this. For Trumpers, defending Trump, and thus their "rationale" for aligning with Trump from the beginning, is more important than anything else. Ray and SBB (to the extent that he's not a bot) value "being right about Hillary not being electable" over any national good or interest. In defense of their irrational need to be "right" about Trump (and thus for all of Trump's crimes and misdemeanors to be "nothingburgers" from "TDS sufferers") they will contort themselves into any pretzel of "logic." All that matters is that they refuse to admit they were wrong. It's their inner Trump coming to the fore.


Well, at least one just jumped off the wagon. Anti-trump is a big tent movement, I guess, but let's make the tent even bigger because I want to risk being seated next to (this particular) Joe Walsh as absolutely little as possible,


Joe Walsh

@WalshFreedom

Look, I'm no big deal, but today is the final straw for me. I will never support Trump again. If that makes me a NeverTrumper, so be it.

I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted.

Speak out.
11:12 AM - Jul 16, 2018

   40. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5710588)
When asked in the press confernce whether Russians did anything wrong in past the president said "we're all to blame."


That is probably literally true, if you take that "we" to constitute the Trump team and the Russians.
   41. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5710589)
And Walsh will be fired by NewsMax in 5...4...3...
   42. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5710590)
why can't he keep the same moniker?


If people knew that SugarBear were SugarBear, they wouldn't have any reason to interact with him, insofar as he's SugarBear.
   43. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5710592)
Rand Paul is not a traitor for pointing out the obvious.


Nah, he's the same dope he's always been, for all the usual reasons.
   44. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5710599)
It's really hard to decide what constitutes a bigger debacle of a disaster of a Are You ####### Kidding Me -- this clown show or the Kim Jong Un handjob.

You really have to think long and hard about it and weigh multiple things.

I honestly am not sure which I would pick as a greater embarrassment. One minute, I think the prestige-raising of a darkened problem state and its despotic leader is worse. The next, I think it's more the fronting for a failing adversarial regime that has the potential to be a bigger headache.

So many angles to consider.

If nothing else, I guess we could just say that Trump embarrassments occupy the two top spots for the most shameful Presidential displays in history and not even bother trying to figure out which is worse.
   45. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5710600)
And remember hippies - this is ALL YOUR FAULT.
   46. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5710603)
People will just downplay Trump's refusal to side with US Intel as him ART OF THE DEALING America toward a better relationship with Russia.
   47. McCoy Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5710604)


If people knew that SugarBear were SugarBear, they wouldn't have any reason to interact with him, insofar as he's SugarBear.


That's pretty much false. People respond to SBB all the time knowing full well that he'll be a troll in the conversation.
   48. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5710606)
Joe Walsh

@WalshFreedom

Look, I'm no big deal, but today is the final straw for me. I will never support Trump again. If that makes me a NeverTrumper, so be it.

I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted.

Speak out.
11:12 AM - Jul 16, 2018

When you've lost Joe Walsh, who's left?

This is the same Joe Walsh whom Sacha Baron Cohen got to endorse his "Kinderguardians" program, which (in Wilson's words) “introduces specially selected children from 12 to 4 years to pistols, rifles, semi-automatics, and and a rudimentary knowledge of mortars. In less than a month—less than a month—a first-GRADER can become a first GRENADE -er.”

He then claimed he'd been tricked, and that he doesn't "actually" believe we should be arming toddlers.**

So who's left supporting Trump? I'm sure he can always count on Clapper. He'll be like the dog who faithfully visits his master's grave long after his master is dead, a veritable Joe Dimaggio to Trump's Marilyn Monroe.

**Nevertheless, the Walsh clip begins at 9:04 of the video.
   49. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5710607)

When you've lost Joe Walsh, who's left?


Don Henley, Glen Frey, uhhhh...the other guy...
   50. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5710608)
I'll disagree with Josh -

The video clips below speak for themselves. There’s little to add to them. I’m watching big think types on TV right now expressing outrage, surprise, bewilderment, anger that President Trump didn’t “hold Putin accountable.” Sometimes when you’re surprised again and again and again, it’s time to consider your assumptions. If you’re a regular reader, you know that I’m pretty cautious in my arguments, cautious on a lot of fronts. I can be aggressive in my arguments and I sometimes speak in hyperbole. But in basic judgments I’m quite cautious. Something is fundamentally wrong here. There is no reasonable explanation for the simple facts we see other than that Russia has some kind of hold over President Trump.

I know that sounds wild and I have a very hard time sometimes quite believing it myself. But it’s so overwhelmingly obvious that we need to get real with ourselves and recognize what is happening. I don’t know what the specific details are. I don’t know whether Russia has some compromising information on the President, whether they have enticed him with personal enrichment. I don’t know. But none of the standard explanations – truculence, trolling, anger over questioning the legitimacy of his election – none of them remotely add up as an explanation. In the future, when we know more details, we will have a difficult time explaining how any serious people continued to think there must be some innocent explanation.


They might very well add up to that.

While the Trumpkins labor consistently to pretend every indictment doesn't matter because of various reasons, it's probably time to say that it probably doesn't matter. I mean - I suppose it may still matter for the constitutional misreaders who want to pretend impeaching the jackass does require some legal determination from the Mueller probe, but in practical terms? It doesn't matter. If Trump wasn't a Kremlin conspirator before - dupe, willing, or unwilling doesn't really matter - he's more than done yeoman's work to become one after the fact.

It's beyond ridiculous that the Trumpkins - who see righeousness and national security and letter of the law - in locking up kids of poor Hondurans as a necessary response to some kind of threat won't utter a peep about this.

The jackass needs to go. Full stop. We're rapidly reaching the point where the existence of a pee tape in a Putin vault would actually be a relief... where extortion is the best case.

The alternative is rapidly forming into something worse - that Trump is so stupid and narcissistic he's acting like that's the case even when it is not.
   51. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5710609)
That's pretty much false. People respond to SBB all the time knowing full well that he'll be a troll in the conversation.


Side note, if you put a user on IGNORE, then that ignore stays through all the handle changes. Not that I am recommending anyone be put on ignore, each person makes their own choice on tat front, for any reason at all. I just wanted to point out how the site function works.
   52. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5710610)
49

When you've lost Joe Walsh, who's left?


Don Henley, Glen Frey, uhhhh...the other guy...


Hey, don't be dissin' on Timothy B. Schmitt!
   53. Traderdave Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5710613)
Bernie Leadon is not amused either.
   54. dlf Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5710614)
What was ......'s previous handle?


I think that one was 'zop, but I could be mistaken.

Don Henley, Glen Frey, uhhhh...the other guy...


I was going to say two out of three ain't bad, but then I remembered that Meatloaf is a DJT fan.
   55. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5710615)
lol, he lost Joe Walsh? Uh oh.
   56. Chicago Joe Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5710616)
If nothing else, I guess we could just say that Trump embarrassments occupy the two top spots for the most shameful Presidential displays in history and not even bother trying to figure out which is worse.


Potentially fun distraction: what are the other nominees? Nixon probably had a couple. Clinton not having sex with that woman?
   57. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5710620)
Potentially fun distraction: what are the other nominees? Nixon probably had a couple. Clinton not having sex with that woman?


Well, era contextualization gets hard... I'd also probably stick with international diplomacy as a baseline entry fee - it's one critical area where the actual job description of the Presidency really does make a difference when he says something on such a stage.

One could almost certainly find something FDR said about Stalin or Reagan said about the Contras and probably get an entrant out of it. Both of them, however, at least have the excuse of facing (or claiming they were facing) far bigger dangers to international comity and had to make alliances of convenience where they could.

   58. DavidFoss Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5710622)
I am a jelly donut.
   59. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5710623)
The jackass needs to go. Full stop.


A fact self-evident in November 2016. Actually, prior to.
   60. Chicago Joe Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5710626)
Probably right about the international context. Maybe Jefferson and/or Madison in the runup to the war of 1812?
   61. Chicago Joe Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5710627)
I am a jelly donut.


Calling yourself a jelly donut <<<< Acting like a jelly donut.
   62. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5710630)
Paul Ryan must be getting all squirrely in the kennel Trump puts him in when he travels...

“There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy here and around the world. That is not just the finding of the American intelligence community but also the House Committee on Intelligence. The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence between the United States and Russia, which remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals. The United States must be focused on holding Russia accountable and putting an end to its vile attacks on democracy.”


I guess he needs the comfort of Trump's lap to calm him down.
   63. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5710631)
Paul Ryan must be getting all squirrely in the kennel Trump puts him in when he travels...


Ryan has his tax cuts. Maybe he's ready to cut bait now that he's been paid. No one said he'd be loyal after the checks cashed.
   64. DavidFoss Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5710633)
Maybe he's ready to cut bait now that he's been paid.

He's just playing out the string. He has already announced that he's not only stepping down from speaker but that he's not running for reelection.
   65. Morty Causa Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5710634)
What's true for Trump is what allows him to prevail. Most of us, to some degree, possess and exhibits this quality. For Trump, it is his raison d'être. His sole purpose in existing.
   66. BrianBrianson Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5710639)
That's pretty much false. People respond to SBB all the time knowing full well that he'll be a troll in the conversation.


A master troll can troll you even when you know it's happening. Indeed, the extra audacity of opening trolling can, if done well, further the emotion need to react.

   67. dlf Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5710641)
   68. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5710642)
Probably right about the international context. Maybe Jefferson and/or Madison in the runup to the war of 1812?


I suspect Jefferson could make the list - though, I think most of his stupidest statements came after his terms were up. He was one of the louder voices for 'Canada will greet us as liberators!' and thinking it would be all so easy. Madison was, IIRC, a bit more cautious - operating more on on a fulcrum between the war hawks and the concillators.
   69. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5710648)
Rather hilarious that all the quitters - Corker, Flake, Ryan, Gowdy, etc - have their 'disappointment' expressed in statements now.

Anything from chinless Mitch, the haircare apparent McCarthy, or the rest?

Nope.

Cult45 rolls on.
   70. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5710653)
Fox News is already spinning this in favor of the Russians.
   71. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5710657)
Potentially fun distraction: what are the other nominees? Nixon probably had a couple. Clinton not having sex with that woman?


Bush the First vomiting on the Japanese Prime Minister at a state dinner? Not particularly consequential, but I'm sure it was excruciatingly awkward in the moment.
   72. Hysterical & Useless Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5710658)
Reagan said about the Contras


The "moral equivalent" of the US Founding Fathers...
   73. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5710659)
70

Fox News is already spinning this in favor of the Russians.


You're surprised at this, Sam?
   74. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5710661)
You're surprised at this, Sam?


Not in the least. I'd give 50/50 odds that members of Fox are part of the media/PR people mentioned in passing as part of the Russian election sabotage.
   75. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5710663)
re:57. I agree with zonk. Up here in commie Canada land, people get excited about all our PM's flaws, but I think he's done the most important jobs that a national leader should do - he's built Canada up on the global stage, he secured trade deals with the EU and the Pac Rim countries, and he told the hippy Vegan reefer crowd in BC that they are getting a damn pipeline through the mountains so that we can sell all our oil to China.

I maintain it is the provincial governments (read "State" for the US) that actually make the decisions that affect the day-to-day life more
   76. Jay Z Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5710665)
It seems to be a rhetorical game to Clapper. The less one concedes now, the more leverage one has later. Get the other side to concede more than you, take that ground, move onto the next point and use their concessions to push further.


I'm not sure I want to play any game that Clapper would play.

With Clapper it is just the disconnect between the size of the audience of this thread, probably in the double digits, and his shtick. Yes, I know he never breaks character. To what end? It's like someone doing a hard sell at a family reunion. F off. There are trolls here, but only Clapper has no soul.
   77. Greg K Posted: July 16, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5710666)
I maintain it is the provincial governments (read "State" for the US) that actually make the decisions that affect the day-to-day life more

As I'm now a resident of Ontario, this is indeed good news!
   78. McCoy Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5710669)

I maintain it is the provincial governments (read "State" for the US) that actually make the decisions that affect the day-to-day life more


In the old days that would be true for America but nowadays so much of what we have and do in our daily life is subject to the federal government. States, counties, and cities get money from the Feds to build roads, schools, airports, hospitals, factories, and so forth. That money comes with strings as our federal government imposes rules, restrictions, and standards on virtually everything we do.

It is true that a bad city council or county commission can turn your neighborhood into a dumpster fire but the federal government can make or break your area as well.
   79. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5710678)
I maintain it is the provincial governments (read "State" for the US) that actually make the decisions that affect the day-to-day life more


No doubt. Indeed - I'd go a level lower down the local level.

This is probably the saddest and worst element of the Trump era - though, I also tend to think it predates him. It
was also my biggest beef with the Berniebro sorts, despite the fact that I'm actually fairly amendable to some of their bigger picture ideas (in bullet point form, setting aside how much the details matter).

The fabric of a democratic nation with federal/provincial/local governance just does not lend itself well to pretending that One Man (or One Woman) should solve everything or even that everything should be solved from the national capital. It's corrosive - and frankly, stupid - that ANYONE expects that (and here, I don't care if one is liberal/progressive, a Trumpkin, a populist, a socialist, or whatever).

As a liberal, yes - there are certain constructs I do think should be national in scope and forced 'down' from DC, even upon regions that grumble. Most of these are social/cultural items that have more to do with the individual and 'full faith and credit' idea (read: stuff like gay marriage).

On the economic front? Things get more perilous. And while I do think there are a limited number of levers to be pulled federally, I prefer a more cautious approach.
   80. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5710681)
Fox & Friends, on Twitter:
Robert Mueller is reportedly pushing to wrap up his special counsel investigation by the end of the summer, but he still hasn't tied anyone from the Trump campaign to the probe

100% correct, except for two details: the part about the report of Mueller wrapping up his investigation, and the part about Mueller not having tied anyone from the Trump campaign to the probe.

Fox & Friends' above tweet has since been deleted. But whatever we do, please let no one call their original tweet #fakenews. Nor should we treat it as a disqualifying mistake that discredits the entire mainstream media even after having been corrected, since corrections only get 10% of the attention that false claims do. Or in this case 10% less than that, since Fox News has issued no correction at all.
   81. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5710687)
lol Gonfalon, well said. What a SAD(!) time to be alive when deleted fake news tweets get less grief then legit honest corrections in WaPo or NYTs.
   82. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5710688)
In the old days that would be true for America but nowadays so much of what we have and do in our daily life is subject to the federal government. States, counties, and cities get money from the Feds to build roads, schools, airports, hospitals, factories, and so forth. That money comes with strings as our federal government imposes rules, restrictions, and standards on virtually everything we do.

It is true that a bad city council or county commission can turn your neighborhood into a dumpster fire but the federal government can make or break your area as well.


Yeah - but to the extent this is true (and for things like schools, it isn't... hospitals, OK) - it's virtually all on the subsidization end, not the restrictive end.

Schools, for example, get north of 90% of their funding from state and local governments. The federal share is less than a tenth - and despite the bathroom war conniptions, there's really precious little restrictive the feds push down on the schools. Even NCLB, whether you want to bash it or not from either left or right - was really about nothing more than haggling over that 7-8% the feds contribute. State and local decides the curriculum, etc.

Something like healthcare - I might buy more... there, mainly because Medicare is such a pack mule (not just for seniors, but it subsidizes medical education and at least so far as hospitals go - does have an outsized funding role).

   83. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5710693)
80

Fox & Friends, on Twitter:

Robert Mueller is reportedly pushing to wrap up his special counsel investigation by the end of the summer, but he still hasn't tied anyone from the Trump campaign to the probe


100% correct, except for two details: the part about the report of Mueller wrapping up his investigation, and the part about Mueller not having tied anyone from the Trump campaign to the probe.

Fox & Friends' above tweet has since been deleted. But whatever we do, please let no one call their original tweet #fakenews. Nor should we treat it as a disqualifying mistake that discredits the entire mainstream media even after having been corrected, since corrections only get 10% of the attention that false claims do. Or in this case 10% less than that, since Fox News has issued no correction at all.


JE hasn't been on all day. I'm afraid you might be wasting your breath.
   84. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5710694)
Oh look, another indictment just announced.

The announcement was made by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers, U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia Jessie K. Liu, and Nancy McNamara, Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Washington Field Office.

Maria Butina, 29, a Russian citizen residing in Washington D.C., was arrested on July 15, 2018, in Washington, D.C., and made her initial appearance this afternoon before Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. She was ordered held pending a hearing set for July 18, 2018.

According to the affidavit in support of the complaint, from as early as 2015 and continuing through at least February 2017, Butina worked at the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government who was previously a member of the legislature of the Russian Federation and later became a top official at the Russian Central Bank. This Russian official was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control in April 2018.

The court filings detail the Russian official’s and Butina’s efforts for Butina to act as an agent of Russia inside the United States by developing relationships with U.S. persons and infiltrating organizations having influence in American politics, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation. The filings also describe certain actions taken by Butina to further this effort during multiple visits from Russia and, later, when she entered and resided in the United States on a student visa. The filings allege that she undertook her activities without officially disclosing the fact that she was acting as an agent of Russian government, as required by law.


Who is she?

Let google be your friend.

Just don't try with -NRA in your search query because it will limit the results.
   85. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5710698)
Where is JE, he take another sabbatical?
   86. Rusty Priske Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5710699)
As I'm now a resident of Ontario, this is indeed good news!


Uh, have you seen who the premier of Ontario is now?

He makes Ontarians jealous of Americans...
   87. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5710700)
Where is JE, he take another sabbatical?


Unless it's deprogramming camp, who cares.
   88. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5710706)
Unless it's deprogramming camp, who cares.


Well if someone has his schedule I'd like to know when he's coming back so I can ignore the thread until he leaves again.
   89. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5710707)
84

The filings also describe certain actions taken by Butina to further this effort during multiple visits from Russia and, later, when she entered and resided in the United States on a student visa.


Oh, my....

But it's the toddlers who need to be in cages. Right...got it...
   90. BrianBrianson Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5710708)
Uh, have you seen who the premier of Ontario is now?

He makes Ontarians jealous of Americans...


Gotta be ready for October 17th, eh?
   91. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5710709)
Apologies if this was posted earlier, but this is where we've arrived: A Russian dictator and former KGB agent is more honest than Trump.

Putin: I wanted Trump to win the election
Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he wanted President Donald Trump to win the 2016 election because he believed Trump's policies would be more friendly to the Kremlin.

"Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the U.S.-Russia relationship back to normal,” Putin said, standing alongside Trump at a joint news conference.

Putin was asked whether he directed any of his officials to help Trump’s presidential campaign, but Putin appeared to sidestep that part of the question. ...

And although Putin said he was rooting for Trump, the American president in the past denied that was the case. Trump previously said Putin would have preferred to see his 2016 opponent, Hillary Clinton, in the White House — saying that was partly because Trump planned to ramp up military spending more than Clinton would have. ...

At the joint news conference, Putin denied any evidence that Russia was behind election meddling, while Trump tried to switch gears to a familiar refrain from the 2016 campaign: Clinton’s private email server.
   92. Traderdave Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5710710)
One step closer to the NRA being outed as the conduit of Russian cash to the Trump campaign, but there's no collusion, none!
   93. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5710716)
Nyet collusion! Is Nyet collusion! Is all Fake News Nothingborger!
   94. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5710729)
Question a friend just posed to me... and it's a good one and I don't know that I have a good answer:

So why don't Berlin, Tokyo, London, Ottawa, Paris and the like take a page out of Moscow's playbook?

Why indeed... they're not subject to sanctions. Those nations don't even have the extensive human rights violations of NK or Russia or Russia's appetite for territorial pieces of their former glory in the table stakes.

They meet with Trump, they show far more patience than he deserves, and for their troubles - they get tariffs, labeled as foes, etc all while Trump then happily skips into the arms of the next dictator to play kissy face.

Hell... if "everybody does it" - then why isn't MI6 or France's DPSD or Japan's PSIA or Canada's CSIS or whatnot learning how foolhardy and stupid it is to pretend the grand international alliance of western-style democracies doesn't have a rogue state needing to be dealt with?

Given our intel and national security sharing and arrangements - not to mention, the fact that they're far more attune with American culture than the Russians - why not just hack the #### out of the RNC... why not hack into the IRS and release Trump's tax returns.... why spool up hordes of bots on social media... why not splash some wikileaks-esque front org with all manner of embarrassing communiques, e-mails, and texts?

Further, should I actually care if they did? If so, why?

It actually is kind of a puzzle - given Trump's mancrushes, I really fail to see the downside.
   95. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5710732)
Putin: I wanted Trump to win the election


And after all the hard work Hillary put into selling him all of our uranium.
   96. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5710736)
re#95 A customer's a customer! I think Canada should just start an initiative to sell all our wheat, soybeans, oil, pork and lumber to China. They could probably take it all
   97. Greg K Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5710738)
Hell... if "everybody does it" - then why isn't MI6 or France's DPSD or Japan's PSIA or Canada's CSIS or whatnot learning how foolhardy and stupid it is to pretend the grand international alliance of western-style democracies doesn't have a rogue state needing to be dealt with?

From Canada's perspective it's probably because they're kind of screwed either way.

If there is no liberal international order than a nation like Canada doesn't really have much power to do anything. And if there is a liberal international order that treats the US as a rogue state, then, I don't know...maybe that works out for everyone else, but Canada is pretty ###### in that scenario.

EDIT: The more general answer is probably that nations like Germany, Japan, France, and Canada place a great deal of value in the liberal international order. Acting like Russia in an attempt to preserve it will likely just hasten its destruction. They're walking a pretty tight balance...how do you keep a club going when the one indispensable member doesn't seem to care?
   98. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5710749)
Unless it's deprogramming camp, who cares.


Days like today it's easy and pleasant to think maybe he's off reconsidering his mistakes and errors of the last few years. But he's not. He's digging into the fever swamps of the right wing Twittersphere awaiting instruction as to talking points.
   99. Zonk is One Individual Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5710751)
From Canada's perspective it's probably because they're kind of screwed either way.

If there is no liberal international order than a nation like Canada doesn't really have much power to do anything. And if there is a liberal international order that treats the US as a rogue state, then, I don't know...maybe that works out for everyone else, but Canada is pretty ###### in that scenario.

EDIT: The more general answer is probably that nations like Germany, Japan, France, and Canada place a great deal of value in the liberal international order. Acting like Russia in an attempt to preserve it will likely just hasten its destruction. They're walking a pretty tight balance...how do you keep a club going when the one indispensable member doesn't seem to care?


The goal, though, isn't to 'hurt' the US -- simply rid the US of a jackass who doesn't value (indeed, virtually opposes and goes out of his way to try to wreck) that liberal international order.

I maintain that logically - it's more of a no lose than a no win scenario.

I mean, you don't aim to get caught... and I suppose you make sure you've got some scapegoats to sacrifice - rogue agents, rogue elements, whatever - but the problem here is pretty plain:

The US has a President who is doing everything he possibly can to wreck that longstanding global alliance. He's made it patently clear this is his intention. His every action and utterance is leading there.

So... you either the new Trump game and beat him, or you don't and lose anyway.

Continuing to pretend "this too shall pass" or otherwise just waiting for Trump to be over with seems foolish.
   100. Greg K Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5710753)
I think that pre-supposes that this is a purely Trump aberration.

Get rid of Trump = Save the international order.

But Trump didn't invent American dissatisfaction with the liberal order, he's just exploited it. An internationally co-ordinated campaign to undermine the US government seems like a great way to consolidate American nationalism.
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