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Monday, July 16, 2018

OTP 2018 July 16: Why Does President Trump Balk At Attending Baseball Games?

As the World Cup finale plays in my living room, it’s seems like the right time to reflect on “America’s pastime” – baseball – and its curious standing these days.

The sport gets it close-up on Tuesday night, when the Major-League All-Star Game is played in the nation’s capital. President Trump is not expected to be attendance, though he easily could zip over to the festivities upon his return from his meeting with Vladimir Putin.

Dating back to William Howard Taft in 1910, every president has done the season’s ceremonial first pitch at least once. So far, Trump’s twice declined to participate in that ritual.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM | 1502 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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Page 14 of 16 pages ‹ First  < 12 13 14 15 16 > 
   1301. DavidFoss Posted: July 21, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5713554)
Trump typically tries to gain someone's trust so that he can lead the person

I think this was my favorite part. Yes. Trump is of the catch-more-flies-with-honey type of person.

Future scholars will be pouring over his words and behavior to see how best to perform diplomacy. Your workplaces will all have seminars so that every team could be more like a Trump team. We are all going to be sick of all the winning!
   1302. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 21, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5713555)
The last page has me picturing a modified human centipede. Putin at the front, then Trump, then Ray.
   1303. spycake Posted: July 21, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5713556)
The last page has me picturing a modified human centipede. Putin at the front, then Trump, then Ray.


Is this a centiphobic statement?
   1304. perros Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5713557)
   1305. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5713559)
I prefer "Almost Crimes," which is also vaguely relevant here.
   1306. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5713560)
Huh? If Trump was buddying up to, say, Merkel, and people mocked him by calling him her (hopeful) lover, would that be a heterophobic slur?


People on the left _don't_ do that sort of thing, do they?

It's only when it's two men.
   1307. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5713561)
Glad to see the spymaster climate scientist step up his cultural sexuality doctorate while I was on vacation.


An ad hominem attack based on calling someone a homosexual is not homophobic. Sure.

I'll never take seriously any professed "concern" you have for LGBT people and the issues they deal with again.

I've been called gay. Oh no, whatever will I do?
   1308. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5713562)
S-B-B, #1299:
But those using the slurs DO view being called gay as an insult, which is quite the commentary.

Not just an insult, but the swellest, most biting insult ever.


Swelling, yes. But hopefully no biting.
   1309. -- Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5713563)
People on the left _don't_ do that sort of thing, do they?


Fact of the matter, no escaping it, when the TDS crowd dug deep for the really cutting insult ... they went with gay sex.

And still are.
   1310. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5713564)
Ray retreating back into his greatest hits is a glimpse into the unpromising future of Trump sycophancy.
   1311. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5713565)
There are hundreds of ways people mock and insult Trump. Childish references to gay sex are but one.
   1312. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5713566)
Trump typically tries to gain someone's trust so that he can lead the person

I think this was my favorite part. Yes. Trump is of the catch-more-flies-with-honey type of person.


Still confused about the 2016 election result, are we?
   1313. Jack Keefe Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5713567)
Ozzie Guillen all ways told me Keefe you must never say #### Holster. You must say in stead NRA Approved Firearm Storage Safety Device for Engorged Manhoods American.
   1314. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5713568)
Ray, #1281:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Derangement_Syndrome


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You're_either_with_us,_or_against_us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fake_news#Usage_of_the_term_by_Donald_Trump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories
   1315. spycake Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5713569)
People on the left _don't_ do that sort of thing, do they?

It's only when it's two men.


How many relationships between recent world leaders have been comparable to Trump-Putin? I think your sample size is about 1 here.

Also, how many world leaders are women? Even if there develops another Trump-Putin style relationship, odds are it won't involve a woman.
   1316. -- Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5713572)
How many relationships between recent world leaders have been comparable to Trump-Putin? I think your sample size is about 1 here.


Reagan/Thatcher, for sure. Obama/Merkel, pretty close.

No one would ever think of saying, "The only thing Reagan's mouth is good for is eating Thatcher's #####."
   1317. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5713573)
Now obviously if someone is invoking actual slurs like f*g, that is inappropriate. But simply referring to them as lovers is not, even if one uses some "blue" language to do so. Blue language is not inherently a slur or anti-anything.


There's not a dime's worth of difference between "fag" and "cockholster."

Particularly given the context in which the latter is being used.
   1318. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5713574)
Still confused about the 2016 election result, are we?
I think everyone but you is well aware of how poorly he did.

(Cue Ray wailing: “But he pitched to the score!!! Wahhh!!!!”)
   1319. spycake Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5713575)
No one would ever think of saying, "The only thing Reagan's mouth is good for is eating Thatcher's #####."


30 years ago? Awesome example.

Pretty sure if you had Twitter and 2018's social mores back in the 1980s, this could have been said.
   1320. -- Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5713576)
Pretty sure if you had Twitter and 2018's social mores back in the 1980s


Begs the question. The social mores are the very issue at hand, not an exogenous one.
   1321. perros Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5713577)
1316 makes me reconsider my position on extraordinary rendition.
   1322. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5713579)
(Cue Ray wailing: “But he pitched to the score!!! Wahhh!!!!”)


63 million votes, not 6 million, David. In the same ballpark as Hillary Clinton, which is how he won.

You've been slow on the uptake here.
   1323. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5713584)
Great fun to watch Ray wallowing in Hillary's loss, the cockholster joke, and a Peter Strzok email-- each of which is over a year old-- while advising people they need to step back and take a break from politics.
   1324. DavidFoss Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5713585)
Still confused about the 2016 election result, are we?

I wasn't talking about two years ago, I was talking much more recently. NATO, G7, Congress, the media, the FBI, etc, etc. Nothing but sweet talk on the exterior from Mr T.
   1325. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5713589)
“Mike Dukakis was great at attracting people! Why, his support was in the same ballpark as GHWB’!!!” said no sane person ever.
   1326. Spahn Insane Posted: July 21, 2018 at 08:06 PM (#5713591)
I’d say these last several pages constitute PeakRay, but I’d hate to underestimate him. (Regardless, it’s been spectacularly funny.) Proceed, gents.
   1327. greenback made it work, honey Posted: July 21, 2018 at 08:12 PM (#5713592)
The FBI has published the FISA application for Carter Page's surveillance, heavily redacted, and it doesn't look like Devin Nunes was perfectly candid with us.

Source #1, who now owns a foreign business/financial firm, was approached by an identified U.S. person, who indicated to Source #1 that a U.S.-based law firm had hired the identified U.S. person to conduct research regarding Candidate #1's ties to Russia (the identified U.S. person and Source #1 have a long-standing business relationship). The identified U.S. person hired Source #1 to conduct this research. The identified U.S. person never advised Source #1 as to the motivation behind the research into Candidate #1's ties to Russia. The FBI speculates that the identified U.S. person was likely looking for information that could be used to discredit Candidate #1's campaign.
...
Notwithstanding Source #1's reason for conducting the research into Candidate #1's ties to Russia, based on Source #1's previous reporting history with the FBI, whereby Source #1 provided reliable information to the FBI, the FBI believes Source #1's reporting herein to be credible.
   1328. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5713593)
Least surprising news ever?

In private, Trump vents frustration over lack of progress on North Korea.

TL;DR: The big summit with North Korea has resulted in no progress at all. Even the most trivial thing - the return of soldiers’ remains - hasn’t happened. Let alone the denuclearization that they never actually agreed to but Trump mistakenly thought they had. They wanted a summit, and Trump foolishly gave it to them.
   1329. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5713597)
Olivia Nuzzi:
‘I Couldn’t Stop Laughing. It’s So Ridiculous.’ A Surreal Week of Excuse-Making at the White House.

The second former official said it was important to remember that “something always goes wrong” with Trump. “There’s always some issue in the White House when it comes to responding to a crisis, and 90 percent of the time, it’s crises that they create themselves, and you have to go in with the understanding that the baseline level for these guys is full retard, basically.”

“The one thing that makes this week so much different is they’re actually trying to fight back. Typically, Trump would say something completely insane and they would just let the media cycle sit. At least they’re trying to fight back. They’re fighting back in the worst possible way, but like, you can see the effort. You know these guys are fucking idiots, but the effort is there.”

“You have a lot of people who are just a bunch of small-timers and clowns, so when they fuck up a response, you almost can’t blame them because you knew what you were getting, you know? When you have people who suck at this and then they fuck up a response, you can’t really be angry. This is what you have. It’s like having a puppy that shits on the floor, you can’t get angry at the puppy. The puppy doesn’t know any better.”

“I guess it’s like the puppy shat on the floor, and then they took the shit and they rubbed it all over the walls.”


The Cabinet Room, where Trump was attempting to clear up one disaster, became the scene of a second disaster — or, really, a third disaster, if you count the cleanup of Disaster One as Disaster Two. While taking questions from reporters, he was asked by ABC’s Cecilia Vega if he believed Russia was still targeting the U.S. “No,” he said, placing his opinion in direct conflict with his own intelligence agencies again.

Vega confirmed the president’s answer by asking the question again. “No? You don’t believe that to be the case?” she asked. “No,” he said.

A few hours later, during the White House briefing, the press secretary said Trump had not, in fact, said that he doesn’t think Russia continues to target the U.S. According to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Trump was actually saying “no” to answering more questions from the press. (After responding to Vega, Trump continued to answer questions from the press.)
   1330. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 08:50 PM (#5713600)
Anyone notice that Little Lord Fauntleray's fictional list of fake attacks in #273 doesn't mention a word about election tampering? The one thing everyone agrees on except for Dimwit J Trump and his legion of fawning Trumpholsters?

Our Little Lord, the Human Veal, may have painstakingly overlooked the obvious. Fortunately even the other Trumpholsters aren't as willfully blind as our pampered princeling.

Top aides gathered to convince the president to issue a rare walk-back of the comments he'd made raising doubts about U.S. intelligence conclusions of Russian election interference as he stood alongside Vladimir Putin.

Vice President Mike Pence, national security adviser John Bolton and chief of staff John Kelly stood united in the West Wing on Tuesday in their contention that the commander in chief had some cleanup to do. They brought with them words of alarm from Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, as well as from a host of congressional leaders and supporters of the president for whom Trump's public praise of Putin proved to be a bridge too far.


These things don't happen in our Little Lord's bucolic bubble of bumblefuckery. That's why he's the Little Lord.
   1331. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5713603)
The breathless headlines at the time this broke were "Trump campaign investigated for colluding with Russia" and such.

Coming to find out that one of the lead investigators thought it was all one big pile of nothing at the time it began is newsworthy to all but hacks.


No, that's not true. The headlines at the time, in 2016, were more like:

Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia


So the fact that leaks from the FBI to the press at that time matched what investigators said to each other at that time should not be considered surprising.

Of course, what reasonable people do when confronted with new evidence is to follow that trail. So while it seemed unlikely to the FBI in 2016 that one of the two major candidates for president could be colluding with a foreign power, you have to take a look at subsequent events and see if they make collusion seem more or less likely.

Since summer of 2016, we've found tons of evidence in the public domain that make collusion more likely and not one piece of evidence for it to be less likely.
   1332. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5713606)
Ray, #1317:
There's not a dime's worth of difference between "fag" and "cockholster."

Particularly given the context in which the latter is being used.


Ferociously, interminably, and without the smallest sense of irony, Ray has the stubborn stupid shamelessness to cite "context"-- context!-- as the reason the Trump cockholster insult IS homophobic. Context is precisely the thing that slew you, Ray.
   1333. spycake Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:07 PM (#5713609)
Begs the question. The social mores are the very issue at hand, not an exogenous one.


Crudity of language, but not necessarily homophobic slurs.

And that crudity is hardly exclusive to liberals. Trump was publicly cruder than any national politician of the 1980s too.
   1334. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5713612)
Um, this is probably going to hurt his candidacy:

WASHINGTON (AP) — Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh suggested several years ago that the unanimous high court ruling in 1974 that forced President Richard Nixon to turn over the Watergate tapes, leading to the end of his presidency, may have been wrongly decided.

Kavanaugh was taking part in a roundtable discussion with other lawyers when he said at three different points that the decision in U.S. v. Nixon, which marked limits on a president’s ability to withhold information needed for a criminal prosecution, may have come out the wrong way.

   1335. spycake Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5713613)
There's not a dime's worth of difference between "fag" and "cockholster."

Particularly given the context in which the latter is being used.


Instead of "Putin's cockholster", if Colbert had said "Putin's f*g" -- no difference?
   1336. Morty Causa Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5713619)
As usual, you fish have let Ray change the subject on you.
   1337. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5713627)
The fish lose by attempting to seriously engage him in the first place.
   1338. baravelli Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5713640)
Ray and tshipman, you two are talking as if the texts were from 2016, but they were from May 2017, as noted in Ray’s excerpt from Solomon's article. The context was that Strzok was trying to decide whether to work for Mueller, who'd just been appointed.
   1339. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5713642)
Ray and tshipman, you two are talking as if the texts were from 2016, but they were from May 2017, as noted in Ray’s excerpt from Solomon's article. The context was that Strzok was trying to decide whether to work for Mueller, who'd just been appointed.


I don't care because it doesn't matter.
   1340. Chip Posted: July 21, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5713650)
Re: 1327, Bradley Moss tweet:

I want apologies from every pathetic hack lawmaker and pundit who went out and made it sound like the dossier alone was used to get the Page FISA warrants or that DOJ somehow concealed the source of the info so as to trick the FISA judge.


Will anyone who has done so in this forum step forward and say, “I was one of these chumps, and I’m sorry.”?
   1341. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 21, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5713656)
Will anyone who has done so in this forum step forward and say, “I was one of these chumps, and I’m sorry.”?


Ray, JE, SBB, and Clapper? Please.
   1342. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 21, 2018 at 10:16 PM (#5713657)
Morty, #1336:
As usual, you fish have let Ray change the subject on you.


Yeah, he got us good. An hour ago, they released the Russian sex spy who set up a back channel at the NRA to illegally funnel Russian oligarch money into the Trump campaign, and why? It's because we were too busy making fun of make-believe cockholster outrage. And now, 98% of Americans think Trump isn't a traitor anymore. Was this thread really worth it, people? At long last, was it worth it?

Oh well, as long as it's all ruined anyway...


spycake, #1315:
Also, how many world leaders are women?

There are currently 27. Or 28, if you count Trump dutifully bringing Putin to the summit of pleasure. #OverturnObergefell #backwardthinking #ihategaypeoplesomuch
   1343. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 21, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5713668)
not a good night for trump, or carter page. first hints of collusion in tonight's news, more than a hint really -- it's the lede.
   1344. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 21, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5713688)
According to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Trump was actually saying “no” to answering more questions from the press. (After responding to Vega, Trump continued to answer questions from the press.)


I read parentheses comment like was being spoken by a narrator, like in Arrested Development.
   1345. greenback made it work, honey Posted: July 21, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5713694)
not a good night for trump, or carter page.

If this is related to the FISA applications, then I don't see this conclusion. The FBI has had the output from this series of warrants for a while now. The fact that Page isn't sitting in jail, awaiting trial, suggests pretty strongly that all these advanced surveillance techniques led to very little of significance for Page or Trump. Page may well have been trying, but for a while now the assumption has been that the Russians thought he was too much of an idiot to bother with.

OTOH Gowdy and Nunes look like lying weasels. Nunes should lose his chair over this, but of course won't.

It's an odd line we've walked to get here.
   1346. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 21, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5713697)
If there is no there there regarding page Nunes sure did lie his ass off for no reason. Doesn't seem likely. This Russian business is getting more illuminated each passing day.
   1347. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5713698)
Since summer of 2016, we've found tons of evidence in the public domain that make collusion more likely and not one piece of evidence for it to be less likely.


You mean, other than the missing dead body?
   1348. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 21, 2018 at 11:57 PM (#5713699)
There's not a dime's worth of difference between "fag" and "cockholster."

Particularly given the context in which the latter is being used.

Instead of "Putin's cockholster", if Colbert had said "Putin's f*g" -- no difference?


Not a dime's worth.

   1349. greenback made it work, honey Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5713701)
If there is no there there regarding page Nunes sure did lie his ass off for no reason.

That's a relevant point, but not particularly strong. Nunes is an attack dog, first and foremost. He doesn't care if Trump is innocent or guilty, but he does want to shut down the investigation, and with Mueller the good bureaucrat that he is, the shutdown isn't happening soon on its own. Further, Nunes is cynical enough that he probably sees a strong chance of Trump getting "convicted" even if Trump is innocent. That's the problem with living in a post-truth world, that even if the facts are on your side, you still act like they aren't. There are numerous to ways to state this, but it all boils down to I wouldn't want to base any claims on Devin Nunes's state of mind.

Again, it would be pretty weird for the FBI to have anything on Page, and he's still jetting around the globe. No, the much greater risk is Mueller pivoting to money laundering, which has little to do with Carter Page. That would be a valid reason to shut down the investigation sooner rather than later.
   1350. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5713702)
Crudity of language, but not necessarily homophobic slurs.


Attacking someone by calling them a homosexual is bog standard homophobia.

   1351. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:18 AM (#5713705)

Attacking someone by calling them a homosexual is bog standard homophobia.
Sounds right. Did anyone do that? Wait for it... nope!
   1352. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:38 AM (#5713707)
That's a relevant point, but not particularly strong. Nunes is an attack dog, first and foremost. He doesn't care if Trump is innocent or guilty, but he does want to shut down the investigation, and with Mueller the good bureaucrat that he is, the shutdown isn't happening soon on its own.
Possible, but Nunes is first and foremost a disreputable attention whore, much like Dershowitz. Obstructing the probe has been incredibly lucrative for him. Shutting it down would be a disaster.

Dude has turned an obscure backwater district into one of the top money raising positions in the house. He should have one of those late night TV commercials advertising how to Make Money Fast. He has to keep the scam going as long as he can.
   1353. tshipman Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:54 AM (#5713709)
Since summer of 2016, we've found tons of evidence in the public domain that make collusion more likely and not one piece of evidence for it to be less likely.


You mean, other than the missing dead body?


When you're first talking to clients, do you tell them that you've practically won their patent case already? After all, the judge hasn't ruled against you yet!
   1354. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:58 AM (#5713710)
Sounds right. Did anyone do that? Wait for it... nope!
Yes, but that sweet, sweet victimhood, tho.
   1355. perros Posted: July 22, 2018 at 02:03 AM (#5713712)
The big summit with North Korea has resulted in no progress at all. Even the most trivial thing - the return of soldiers’ remains - hasn’t happened. Let alone the denuclearization that they never actually agreed to but Trump mistakenly thought they had. They wanted a summit, and Trump foolishly gave it to them.


Trump is the perfect representative of the United States people: self-centered, ill-informed, and demanding complete capitulation with nothing in return but a standing promise of regime change, backed by military plans to decapitate N Korean leadership. Why would North Korea up its nukes under such conditions?

Maybe once the US declares an end to the war-- hardly a trivial stumbling block to negotiations -- we'll get soldiers remains back. But considering North Koreans demand for reciprocal denuclearization, yeah, it's never going to happen.

North Korea Criticizes US Gangster Attitude
   1356. perros Posted: July 22, 2018 at 06:29 AM (#5713714)
if you count Trump dutifully bringing Putin to the summit of pleasure



Bubble calls this meeting to order
   1357. perros Posted: July 22, 2018 at 06:34 AM (#5713715)
I think everyone but you is well aware of how poorly he did.


Less poorly than Clinton.
   1358. manchestermets Posted: July 22, 2018 at 07:19 AM (#5713716)
People on the left _don't_ do that sort of thing, do they?

It's only when it's two men.



How many relationships between recent world leaders have been comparable to Trump-Putin? I think your sample size is about 1 here.

Also, how many world leaders are women? Even if there develops another Trump-Putin style relationship, odds are it won't involve a woman.


In the UK in the 80s, it was common for the Thatcher-Reagan relationship to be satirised as a romantic relationship. So yeah, it's not only when it's two men.
   1359. Omineca Greg Posted: July 22, 2018 at 07:42 AM (#5713717)
Putin and Trump, World's Greatest Lovers?

Nah.

I really never thought Castro would love again after he lost Che...check out Guevara's last letter to Fidel...

Fidel:

I remember many things in this hour—how I met you in the house of María Antonia, and how you proposed that I come with you, and all the strain of the preparations.

One day they passed by to ask who would be advised in case of the death, and the real possibility of it struck all of us. Later we knew that it was true, that in a revolution one triumphs or dies (if it be a true one). Many comrades were left along the road to victory.

Today everything has a less dramatic tone, for we are more mature, but the event is repeating itself. I feel that I have fulfilled the part of my duty that bound me to the Cuban Revolution on its territory, and I take my farewell of you, my comrades and your people who are now my people.

I formally renounce my posts in the leadership of the Party, my post as Minister, my rank as Major, my status as a Cuban citizen. Nothing legal binds me to Cuba, only ties of another kind that cannot be broken, as can official appointments. Looking back over my past life, I believe that I have worked with sufficient faithfulness and dedication in order to consolidate the revolutionary triumph. My only deficiency of any importance is not to have trusted you more from those first moments in the Sierra Maestra and in not having understood soon enough your qualities of leader and revolutionary.

I have lived through magnificent days and at your side I felt the pride of belonging to our people in the luminous and sad days of the Caribbean Crisis. Rarely has any statesman shone more brilliantly than you did in those days. I feel pride, too, in having followed you without hesitation, identifying myself with your way of thinking and seeing and of judging dangers and motives.

Other regions of the world claim the support of my modest efforts. I can do what is forbidden to you because of your responsibility to Cuba, and the time has come for us to separate.

Let it be known that I do it with a mixture of joy and sorrow: I am leaving here the purest of my hopes as a builder and the most loved among my beloved creatures, and I leave a people who accepted me as a son; this rends a part of my spirit. On new battlefields I will carry with me the faith that you inculcated in me, the revolutionary spirit of my people, the feeling of having fulfilled the most sacred of duties: to fight against imperialism wherever it may be; this comforts and heals any wound to a great extent.

I say once more that I free Cuba of any responsibility save that which stems from its example: that if the final hour comes upon me under other skies, my last thought will be for this people and especially for you, that I am thankful to you for your teachings and your example, and that I will try to be faithful up to the final consequences of my acts; that I have at all times been identified with the foreign policy of our Revolution, and I continue to be so; that wherever I may end up I will feel the responsibility of being a Cuban revolutionary, and I will act as one; that I leave nothing material to my children and my wife, and this does not grieve me: I am glad that it be so; that I ask nothing for them, since the State will give them sufficient to live and will educate them.

I would have many things to say to you and to our people, but I feel that they are unnecessary; words cannot express what I would want them to, and it isn’t worthwhile wasting more sheets of paper with my scribbling.

To victory forever. Patria o Muerte!

I embrace you with all my revolutionary fervor!

c

Wow. I would it give it to in the original Spanish...but it's just too hot, I don't want to be responsible for sending a whole bunch of baseball fans/political junkies running to their doctors when their boners last for more than four hours.

Anyway, I never thought Fidel would find somebody like that again. But then he met...Danny.

Who could resist that sensuous pout framed by the beckoning pencil moustache, the jet black hair, the way those stars on his epaulettes sparkle like the revolutionary gleam in his eyes. Fidel was smitten.

Y esas osamentas,
árbol de noche,
traman entre los péndulos de la voz,
la más antigua,
la leyenda que testimonian las
piedras ciegas,
reyerta del aire.
Y dicen, dicen,
la azarosa epopeya
de la espada que empuñan otras manos;
y dicen sin decir,
porque la voz se ha enmudecido:
ahí están los soldados
muertos en Normandía,
los que cayeron en Vietnam,
o en Cartago, o en África;
y dicen diciendo,
del inevitable ayer de los muertos de Stalin,
del sol quemante en los rostros
de los jinetes, los que cruzaron en vano
un desierto para vencer al sol.

Y el hombre, por ahora joven,
empieza a encontrar las huellas
de sus pies por los caminos.
Ahí están los primeros,
los del centro de la ciudad,
los de la sexta avenida,
los de los paseos por Antigua.

Ahí están,
las huellas que pronto fue grabando:
por las veredas de la montaña,
en el agua clara de los ríos,
en la claridad de noches eternas,
en el fuego de los comales,
en la ilusión de luciérnagas
y el concierto de ranas y grillos;
ahí están las huellas,
en los caminos que recorrió,
en el olor del loroco
y de la flor de ayote,
en el aroma del ocote
que alumbró palabras,
entrañas de vísperas abortadas;
ahí, en esos senderos de romerías,
de aves migratorias, de hombres de a caballo
y ánimas en pena;
de caciques y matones,
de males de ojo y gritos al lucero del alba.

Ahí está el hombre,
dejando al joven,
lejos del niño.
Ahí está el ser,
indigesto de semillas y promesas,
de tempestades y arrebatos.
Ahí está, con sus trapitos
de triunfos y apresuradas derrotas.

Por fin, el joven,
ahora hombre,
va dejando la llovida tierra,
los invernales sueños,
ésos, los apetitosos como un pezón,
ahí, abandonados,
desgranados como el maíz.

¿Qué ve el hombre?
Nada cambió,
el pellejo del tiempo luce cansado.


El ser y el hombre
orean sus cansados sueños.
Sí, todo cambió.
Todo.
Triunfo a medias.
Aunque el hambre,
pezón negro,
negro,
se arrodille ante los falsos altares:
el hambre no existe,
es un engaño.
Mientras todos se ven
y se interrogan calladito.
Sin embargo,
ahí está el hambre
en sus harapos de siempre.
Aunque ellos den su verdad
como leche con hiel,
aunque el hambre siga
teniendo sabor a pezón,
a mujer;
aunque el hambre
siga siendo una falsa cifra
de estadísticas irrebatibles.


Por fin, el ser,
por fin, el hombre,
recoge su semilla
y se va en silencio,
aunque su palabra
sea una camisa sin botones,
en silencio,
oyendo el rayo de las piedras,
evadiendo el chorro de humo
de viejas cocinas;
en silencio,
escondiendo las raíces
de la memoria,
secando la sangre del camino,
arreando a las hormigas;
en silencio,
cargando su matate
de aturdidas verdades;
en silencio,
escuchando a los grillos,
con el alma en los ojos,
en las manos,
con el llanto salado,
salado; en silencio,
juntando la hojarasca
para inaugurar su fuego nuevo,
nuevo, nuevo,
como los muertos,
como los sueños,
como la voz,
como el tiempo;
en silencio,
en silencio,
calladito,
casi susurrando,
el nombre de la luna,
casi haciendo fuego del aire,
casi,
casi haciendo fuego del fuego,
casi,
casi,
amancebada con la alegría,
y el ser,
un reloj viejo
arrumbado en el ropero del tiempo.
Ahí va el joven,
por fin hombre,
ahí va,
directo a la luz de su ceguera,
diciendo adiós,
desde sus torres y fortalezas,
flecha ciega,
panal de vigías eternas,
recién nacidas
para retozar de nuevo
con la alegría.

Gerardo Guinea Diez


Yeah, baby.

Anyway, Putin and Trump may be in love, but they'll never love like Ortega and Castro did.

Right to the end.

You want to see a crushed man? This is a crushed man.

To lovers everywhere, I send out this song. Too many times we get distracted, and let little things pull us apart, to keep love alive in these days of endless imbroglio can seem like an excruciating challenge. Don't let pettiness rob you of a single day. Let Fidel and Daniel be examples to us all, grab your partner and crush every oppressive regime you find, even if it takes replacing them with even more oppressive ones; this is the way to keep ἔρως, ἀγάπη, and φιλία even into our last years.

Anyway, Vern Gosdin, or as he was known in country music circles, "The Voice"...

You ran cryin to the bedroom
I ran off to the bar
Another piece of heaven gone to hell
The words we spoke in anger
Just tore my world apart
And I sat there feelin sorry for myself
Then an old man sat down beside me
And looked me in the eye
He said, "Son, I know what you're goin through
You ought to get down on your knees
And thank your lucky stars
That you've got someone to go home to.

You don't know about lonely
Or how long nights can be
Til you've lived through the story
That's still livin in me
You don't know about sadness
Til you've faced life alone
You don't know about lonely
Til it's chiseled in stone."

So I brought these pretty flowers
Hoping you would understand
Sometimes a man is such a fool
Those golden words of wisdom
From the heart of that old man
Showed me I ain't nothin without you

You don't know about lonely
Or how long nights can be
Til you've lived through the story
That old man just told me
And you don't know about sadness
Til you've faced life alone
You don't know about lonely
Til it's chiseled in stone
You don't know about lonely
Til it's chiseled in stone

Gosdin/Barnes


Embrace with all your revolutionary fervor!
   1360. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 22, 2018 at 08:56 AM (#5713724)
Here's how Ray's been influencing the Biased Left Wing Media, in the voice of an "incoming assistant professor in the department of political science at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst". (Sounds like Ray's kind of school):

No, your Trump-is-gay-for-Putin jokes aren’t funny

Of course if I were Ray I'd say this was an "editorial" or I'd say "even the Washington Post agrees with me", but alas, it's just one of a million op-eds the Post runs from all over the spectrum, and it's mocked by the Post's readers just as Ray's inane comments are here.
   1361. BDC Posted: July 22, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5713726)
I return to Texas from three weeks overseas to find that not much has changed in the weirdness that is Austin:

Starting Monday, Texas Department of State Health Services employees whose job it is to analyze data on tuberculosis, HIV and sexually transmitted diseases are being relocated from the Austin State Hospital 636 building where a mold infestation has invaded their desks, chairs, carpeting and keyboard hand rests, causing health concerns.

The Baer Engineering report said "visible suspect mold was observed on desks, cabinets, chairs, carpet, walls, and around skylights." The report found that there was mold seen or detected throughout the dozen areas inside the building where samples were taken. Baer Engineering noted that the building's heating, ventilation and air conditioning system was a factor, since "cycling at nights and weekends is causing temperature and humidity issues that promote mold growth."


That's a chronic problem in Texas. As y'all know, we like our air-conditioning (it was 109° F here yesterday). So we construct windowless buildings that are dependent on air handlers for their basic livability. These babies suck a lot of power, and it would seem both thrifty and green to shut them off over weekends and holidays; but when a building sits for days on end without any air moving, problems develop. And we get the classic scenario of the health department working in unhealthy conditions …
   1362. Howie Menckel Posted: July 22, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5713727)
Vern Gosdin, good call Omineca! "The Voice," indeed
   1363. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5713728)
No, your Trump-is-gay-for-Putin jokes aren’t funny


Are any comedians quoted? No? Not even a cartoonist?
   1364. Morty Causa Posted: July 22, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5713732)
Country songs like that always seem to me to skirt the edge of self-parody. (For some reason, Hank Williams, the senior, easily skates by, though, except in his Luke the Drifter mode.)

   1365. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 22, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5713734)
The fish lose by attempting to seriously engage him in the first place.


Right. He has me on ignore because I mock him every time I address him. Everyone who thinks he's a moron should mock him. Soon enough he'll have most people on ignore and he can talk to his fellow Dancing Monkeys.
   1366. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5713736)
Maybe once the US declares an end to the war--
You are badly confused. First, North Korea did not attack us; it attacked South Korea. It would therefore be rather presumptuous of us to “declare” such a thing. Second, we agreed to an armistice. Quite a long time ago. (Perhaps you missed that?) That ended combat. We can’t “declare” a treaty; that would have to be negotiated.
   1367. Shredder Posted: July 22, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5713740)
Everyone who thinks he's a moron should mock him.
Or just ignore him. Trust me, enough people quote Ray, SBB, etc., that you don't need to actually pay attention to their original posts. It's a lot easier to avoid engaging when the first time you read one of Ray's comments is when someone else is mocking him.
   1368. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5713744)
Ray, #1281:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Derangement_Syndrome


Oh, are we taking a break to list our favorite silly wikipedia pages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unusually_shaped_vegetable

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/4'33"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Orgasm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_clown
   1369. perros Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5713745)
You want to see a crushed man?


¡Ortega y Somoza son la misma cosa!
   1370. BDC Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5713746)
Here's one I was reading about recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb
   1371. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5713747)
Here's one I was reading about recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb


Holy WMD Batman!
   1372. -- Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5713748)
The number of threads that unfold as follows ...

TDSer says something

Ray or I or both patiently and convincingly and analytically disprove that thing

TDSers revert to naval gazing about why they "bother" to "engage" us or the degree to which we're "trolls"


... is simply stunning.
   1373. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5713749)
What are three words SBB does not know how to use properly...

patiently and convincingly and analytically


/Carnac
   1374. Chicago Joe Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5713751)
Didn't see this above...

Why does President Trump balk?

Fake moves.
   1375. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5713754)
Didn't see this above...

Why does President Trump balk?

Fake moves.


So-called umpires.
   1376. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5713755)
So-called umpires.


Enemies of the pickoff people
   1377. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5713760)
Since summer of 2016, we've found tons of evidence in the public domain that make collusion more likely and not one piece of evidence for it to be less likely.

You mean, other than the missing dead body?

When you're first talking to clients, do you tell them that you've practically won their patent case already? After all, the judge hasn't ruled against you yet!


First, I mainly do prosecution and litigation support. So mainly I'm dealing with patent examiners and opposing counsel, other than when I argue an appeal in front of the board. And no, I don't 'practically guarantee' a client anything. But I certainly give them an assessment at or near the beginning of what I think their chances are. (If I think it would be an uphill battle to get a patent I say so.) Similar to what Strzok did, but it's not a very good analogy on your part.
   1378. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5713763)
Here's how Ray's been influencing the Biased Left Wing Media, in the voice of an "incoming assistant professor in the department of political science at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst". (Sounds like Ray's kind of school):

No, your Trump-is-gay-for-Putin jokes aren’t funny


Haven't read the piece but that's one of the tells here: not only are the jokes not funny, but they're not -- at least, the "jokes" on this board -- actually an attempt at humor. They're literally just attacks on perceived Trump supporters.

You can certainly have gay humor that isn't homophobic -- such as Seinfeld's "not that there's anything wrong with that." Done without malicious intent and not as a mean spirited attack. But this is not that.
   1379. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5713771)
The piece in Andy's link in 1360 makes a number of solid points:

On Monday, as President Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin met in Helsinki for their controversial summit, the New York Times Opinion section’s Twitter page circulated an animated video titled “Trump and Putin: A Love Story.”

...

The video is deeply homophobic, using the possibility of gay sexuality to belittle both men. What’s more, it’s the product of a journalistic trend that uses gay romance as a metaphor for political weakness and inefficiency. As any feminist security-studies scholar will tell you, these lazy, dangerous narratives result from the entrenchment of masculinity and heterosexuality in U.S. foreign policy. They trickle down from the ways we talk about security in our military institutions, and they have profound implications for the safety and security of queer people around the world.

Gay romantic depictions of Trump’s relationships with foreign leaders often propagate when his diplomatic strategies are most ill conceived. ...

...

These depictions attack Trump’s desire to appear powerful and legitimate abroad by emasculating and reducing him to a purportedly “unmanly” act. The persistence of such narratives in a liberalizing climate of gay rights seems perplexing.

...

The Pentagon exercises significant oversight in the government’s agenda, military actors carry out U.S. ambitions around the world, and traditional masculinity plays a critical role in U.S. presentation. It is through this lens that gayness becomes a tool of belittlement and a metaphor for failure.

...

Still, Trump seems pathological in his need to appear tough. ... In January, Trump tweeted about Kim, “I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!” The penis-measuring overtones are not subtle. Nor is the insinuation that his “nuclear button” is Trump’s vehicle for signaling foreign policy acumen. It is perhaps the easiest setup for a homophobic joke, one that tears down this self-purported legitimacy through emasculation. The joke is that “gay” Trump and his summit buddies are not real men and are thus weak and incompetent in foreign policy. The joke is not funny.

Because gay-Trump metaphors conflate homosexuality with inadequacy and failure, they further the stereotype that gay people are weak political actors and security risks. This is not a new idea in the United States.
During the McCarthy era, the government systematically questioned suspected gays, publicly disclosed information about their sexual habits and branded them as communists. Until 2011, the United States barred openly gay people from serving in the armed forces. The Pentagon and successive presidential administrations defended this policy on the flawed grounds that gay people would harm military effectiveness and pose a security risk. Those policies functioned on the very logic underpinning careless cartoons and videos about gay-Trump dalliances.

Trump-Putin and Trump-Kim romance narratives engender real harm in gay people’s lives. Using accusations of homosexuality, however satirical, to delegitimize powerful figures perpetuates the notion that gayness is shameful and that gay people are “less than.” Those ideas already threaten gay people’s safety.


...

Trump is astonishingly ill informed about foreign affairs. He undermines the U.S. intelligence community at the peril of our safety and institutional integrity. He is ineffectual, and even dangerous, in his foreign policy. Gay romance metaphors do not convey this reality — they obscure it. We should indict the conditions giving rise to these narratives and seriously consider the costs of linking gay sexuality with failure, security risk and shame.
   1380. Chicago Joe Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5713772)
Ok, I have to comment on the cockholster thing. The first time I ever heard the term was long ago when I was tending bar. There was a Lothario I worked with-he just had ladies coming out his ears. He lived with a woman; she had a very nice place. So one night, he and I were tippling, him working his magic, me half observing and half watching Sportscenter (I was an excellent wingman). So he hooks up with these two (!) ladies, in the process spiking poker night, which was usually at his (really her) place. Next day at work, I'm asking him how he manages to pull this off, when he busts out with "___ ain't nothing but a cockholster anyway." So I asked for clarification-his explanation was that she's where he keeps his #### when he's not using it. Which I think is a good summation. Sure, since Putin and Trump are both men, the connotation is gay. But the meaning is more the diminishment of the holster-you see, when I'm inside you, I'm not even really using my #### the way I would be when I'm unholstered. Add to this the vaguely effete nature of Trump (making him passive) and the exaggerated masculinity of Putin (making him the active one), and to me, the picture is complete. It's about power and agency, not sexuality per se. Though Trump's obsession with his own manhood and the disconnect with his actual physical persona certainly adds a layer.
   1381. -- Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5713773)
The persistence of such narratives in a liberalizing climate of gay rights seems perplexing.


Not really that perplexing, when one truly understands modern liberalism.

But in any event, when they had to dig really deep for what they thought would be the mic drop insult, they turned to ... gay sex. No escaping it.
   1382. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5713777)
Russia Mania Is the Birtherism of the Left
COMMENTARY
By Steve Cortes
July 22, 2018

The birther movement that assailed President Obama represents one of the most unsavory themes of American politics over the last decade.

...

Now, I forcefully denounce a new birtherism, this time from the left via an entrenched and hysterical fixation on Russia and President Trump. Like the Obama birtherism, there are enough fuzzy facts for totally biased people to convince themselves there is some merit to the fanciful concoction. After all, Trump seems unwilling to vigorously condemn Putin’s misdeeds. Trump also was hesitant to enact harsh sanctions against Russia. Perhaps most importantly, he seemed unduly deferential to Putin in the Helsinki press conference, a criticism I myself levied.

But, the leap from “Trump is too soft on Russia” to “Trump is a compromised Russian agent” is indeed a giant one, and illogical as well. According to the new birthers, the total lack of evidence regarding Trump and his supposed fealty to Russia matters little; instead, only their suspicions and mistrust matter, especially since so many media and political elites still have not recovered from so badly missing the tectonic political shift of the 2016 election. Rather than introspection or discernment regarding their own biases, the chattering class of Acela corridor bigwigs would rather create a myth that the president did not really win, at least not legitimately. The new birthers would rather sell us the lie that the Russians altered the vote to install their man in the Oval Office to do Vladimir’s bidding.

Such thoughts are hardly consigned to the wackier outposts of the radical left. Instead, this liberal birtherism is fully embraced by the most prolific and credentialed elites of American government and media.

...

Formerly serious news anchors and politicians have transformed, through their hatred of Trump, into the new Alex Joneses. Both the old and the new birtherisms are bad for America. We are better than this nonsense as a country.


Link

"The chattering class of Acela corridor bigwigs would rather create a myth that the president did not really win, at least not legitimately."

By the way this is perhaps one reason why Trump refuses to say what to Putin and about Putin that you want him to. He knows the interest of the insane ones is merely to paint his election victory as illegitimate and he refuses to play that game. One reason why in his comments he conflates the Russia collusion issue with the DNC hack with the Podesta hack with Clinton's server is because that's what his critics and people in the media do; the whole package is taken together as a means of discrediting his election victory.
   1383. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5713779)
The persistence of such narratives in a liberalizing climate of gay rights seems perplexing.

Not really that perplexing, when one truly understands modern liberalism.


Indeed. The writer is perplexed because she doesn't understand how these people think.
   1384. greenback made it work, honey Posted: July 22, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5713780)
Dude [Nunes] has turned an obscure backwater district into one of the top money raising positions in the house. He should have one of those late night TV commercials advertising how to Make Money Fast. He has to keep the scam going as long as he can.

That goes with my point, doesn't it? Or at least could go with my point. I mean, it's easy to imagine Nunes throwing that slop memo together, knowing that it will score him some points on Fox News, even though everybody else will heap scorn on it.
   1385. greenback made it work, honey Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5713781)
This is America:
And there was Sheila Butler, who sat on the sixth pew on the right side, who said “we’re moving toward the annihilation of Christians.”

She was 67, a Sunday school teacher who said this was the only way to understand how Christians like her supported Trump.

“Obama was acting at the behest of the Islamic nation,” she began one afternoon when she was getting her nails done with her friend Linda. She was referring to allegations that President Barack Obama is a Muslim, not a Christian — allegations that are false. “He carried a Koran and it was not for literary purposes. If you look at it, the number of Christians is decreasing, the number of Muslims has grown. We allowed them to come in.”

“Obama woke a sleeping nation,” said Linda.

“He woke a sleeping Christian nation,” Sheila corrected.

Linda nodded. It wasn’t just Muslims that posed a threat, she said, but all kinds of immigrants coming into the country.

“Unpapered people,” Sheila said, adding that she had seen them in the county emergency room and they got treated before her. “And then the Americans are not served.”

Love thy neighbor, she said, meant “love thy American neighbor.”

Welcome the stranger, she said, meant the “legal immigrant stranger.”

“The Bible says, ‘If you do this to the least of these, you do it to me,’ ” Sheila said, quoting Jesus. “But the least of these are Americans, not the ones crossing the border.”

It actually gets worse than that.
   1386. Chicago Joe Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5713782)
Ray and --'s exchanges are starting to remind me of the immortal Chomsky-Zinn (fictional) deconstruction of Lord Of The Rings.
   1387. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5713783)

Turley:

FBI official Peter Strzok’s recent testimony before the House Judiciary Committee continued a time-honored practice of elected members of Congress doing nothing about the open contempt of federal departments or agencies and their unelected officials.

Strzok was just the latest in a long procession of officials, from both Democratic and Republican administrations, who refused to answer questions, produce documents, or otherwise comply with the constitutional authority of Congress to exercise oversight. Aside from outraged words of protest or toothless sense-of-Congress resolutions, none — not one — has suffered any serious consequences.

...Strzok responded with what became a mantra to virtually every query about his role in the Clinton email and Russian collusion investigations: “Counsel for the FBI, based on the special counsel’s equities, has instructed me not to answer.” I am not quite sure what “equities” are, but they are not constitutionally recognized privileges. Strzok is a federal employee, appearing before a committee with oversight authority looking into a matter of great public interest. The FBI ordering him not to answer on the basis of “equities” is manifestly wrong.

...

Yet, increasingly, witnesses refuse to answer questions without making such a formal invocation. In his hearing, Strzok did not invoke a privilege. He simply nodded to an unidentified FBI lawyer sitting behind him who proceeded to signal, like Caesar, what questions would be answered. Anything that might significantly shed light on the underlying allegation of FBI investigatory bias was deemed unanswerable.

...

...A finite number of privileges exists to [Gowdy's] question.

The classic privilege is to refuse to give answers containing presidential communications. That is not absolute and also not remotely involved here. There is privilege that can be asserted over the “deliberative process,” whereby agencies withhold information that would reveal internal deliberations on a policy or action. This has always been a contested privilege and is particularly dubious when asserted against an oversight committee and, again, not remotely viable in this case.

There is attorney-client privilege, which is not at issue with an FBI agent testifying before Congress unless his personal attorney makes such an assertion. House Judiciary Chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) was correct in noting that the unnamed FBI lawyer was not Strzok’s personal lawyer. Then there is the claim of classified or national security information, which was not asserted here and does not appear relevant.

Finally, there is the shaky claim of law enforcement privilege. Based on a controversial 1984 opinion by the Justice Department’s office of legal counsel, this privilege is raised when the information deals with open law enforcement investigations or sensitive techniques and strategies. This one comes closest to whatever “equities” may mean. However, courts have rejected such claims being used to block oversight committees.

...

So what is left? The answer is contempt. It is outright contempt that has become almost casual in its sense of utter impunity. This has nothing to do with the subject or the merits of the committee’s investigation. The problem is that Congress has allowed the very agencies abusing these privileges in this instance, the FBI and Justice Department, to control whether their own officials can be prosecuted.

   1388. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5713784)
It's about power and agency, not sexuality per se.


Yes. We all know that. Including Ray and bear. They are just being ######## for purposes known only to themselves.
   1389. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5713785)
It actually gets worse than that.


I completely get the Trumpkin's point that Trump tapped into that kind of hatred and bigotry. What I don't get is why they are so proud of that fact. "Love thy neighbor means love they American neighbor"? What kind of ###### up theology is that? Jesus had no concept of America. How on earth can that mean what she says?
   1390. -- Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5713787)
Yes. We all know that. Including Ray and bear.


Of course I know that -- power and agency expressed through (homo)sexuality is the entire point.

The "distinction" isn't an exoneration; it's an indictment.
   1391. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5713788)
It's about power and agency, not sexuality per se.

Yes. We all know that. Including Ray and bear. They are just being ######## for purposes known only to themselves.


You can tell yourself what you need to to make yourself feel better and pretend you're not guilty of engaging in homophobia or at least aiding it. But what's the "purpose" of the poli-sci professor Andy linked to in 1360?

What's the "purpose" of James Nichols here?

OPINION
07/16/2018 02:25 pm ET Updated 5 days ago
Joking That Trump And Putin Are Gay Is Homophobia
headshot
By James Michael Nichols


Since the months leading up to the 2016 presidential election, LGBTQ people have been confronted with a curiously offensive idea that we’ve been told to accept as humor: that the strange relationship between President Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin could in some way be romantic or sexual.

...

Yet on Monday, queer people were once again forced to digest a depiction of Trump and Putin engaging in weirdly sexual and romantic acts when The New York Times tweeted out a particularly heinous animated comic, originally published last month, from their “Trump Bites” series.

...

What is so remarkable about this short animation is that it relies entirely upon the premise of homophobia in order to make an impact. There is no larger message, no big-picture takeaway. Just the supposed humor embedded within the idea that tenderness between two men is in some way mockable.

When I wrote on this topic in February 2017 in response to “protest art” of a naked Putin fondling a pregnant Trump, I was met with a barrage of tweets and emails telling me that I couldn’t take a joke ― including some from LGBTQ people. A handful of readers went out of their way to let me know that I was being a “special snowflake” and that my millennial sensitivity is what is ruining this country.

But these reductive depictions of Trump and Putin are all built upon an underlying and insidious foundation of homophobia ― an idea that men who love or have sex with other men are in some way weak, more effeminate and inherently contemptible than those identifying as straight.

...

And effeminate men, myself included, have to think every single day about the way that their “failure” of masculinity could potentially impact their safety as they navigate the world. As a result, it’s pretty difficult to not read joking same-sex affection between Trump and Putin as a “fuck you” to queer people ― especially when it’s given space in as influential of a publication as the Times.


Link
   1392. -- Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5713789)
But these reductive depictions of Trump and Putin are all built upon an underlying and insidious foundation of homophobia ― an idea that men who love or have sex with other men are in some way weak, more effeminate and inherently contemptible than those identifying as straight.


The only reason this obvious point is even being disputed is that self-diagnosis by the afflicted is impossible.
   1393. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5713791)
There hasn't been much good to come out of a Trump Presidency... but I'm willing to say that it leading to the minting of two new SJWs might count as something.
   1394. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5713792)
What is the "purpose," one wonders, of Eric Thomas writing in writing in Elle:

Gay Jokes About Trump and Putin Aren't Funny. They're Hate.

[snip summary of the Plympton cartoon]

This is vile. Plympton took his obvious talents for satire and animation and threw them directly in the trash, choosing instead to make a feeble joke out of calling the president a faggot.

Make no mistake, that's exactly what this is. No more and no less. It is a homophobic slur barely disguised as political comedy and it's shockingly prevalent amongst people who would probably describe themselves as liberal. It is pervasive on Twitter where journalists, celebrities, and comedians, as well your average Resister, continue to go back to a well that has always been dry.

The premise of the joke, such as it is, is that Trump and Putin's special, dangerous relationship is deepened by a same-sex attraction between the two. What's worse than potentially colluding with a hostile foreign power? Two men kissing. Hilarious.

Some people make these insinuations as acts of "Resistance," believing that if Trump sees himself mocked in this way it will make him mad. I have bad news for everyone: Trump isn't looking at your dumb tweets. But you know who is? Queer people. LGBTQ adults and children who are seeing their president cozy up to an autocratic, violently homophobic leader of a country with a host of anti-gay policies are seeing your poorly constructed jokes. ...

...

Maybe that's what these people want. Maybe they're homophobes. Plenty of liberal people are. Ask any LGBTQ person how many well-intentioned allies have called something "gay" in front of them, have mimicked gay sex as a punchline, have joked a person is gay or lesbian because of the way they dress or talk or the things they enjoy. Every time a gay person hears a "joke" like this, it confirms that the world we live in is not safe, that the people who say that they have our backs are lying, that any interaction can suddenly reveal a hurled slur and after that, a thrown fist.

Because this is where the road ends for queer people: seemingly innocent mockery codifies homophobic beliefs and discomfort with same-sex attraction; that, in turn, results in open insults, complaints, or noises of disgust when said attraction is made visible through acts like holding hands, kissing, or simply standing in a certain way. And the noises of disgust then boil over into violence and often death. It can happen over the course of years or over a matter of minutes. That is the reality that queer people are reminded of when gayness is a punchline.

...


To attempt to mock Trump for having feelings of attraction for Putin is to attempt to incite a gay panic in the two men and in their followers and acolytes. It is willfully violent, not to mention careless, lazy, reductive, and, frankly, boring. It makes Putin and Trump's jobs easier by reinforcing a world that is hostile to LGBTQ people to the point of death. If that's the objective of these so-called jokes, fine. Just don't call it comedy; call it what it is: hate.


   1395. BDC Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5713794)
I think Ray and Sugar Bear are right. Two adult men ought to be able to spend some private time together, come out winking at each other, and have one describe the other as "extremely strong and powerful," without people starting all that gay stuff.
   1396. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5713795)
There hasn't been much good to come out of a Trump Presidency... but I'm willing to say that it leading to the minting of two new SJWs might count as something.


It's telling that folks think pointing out homophobia is something mockworthy.

Imagine if you were in a meeting in the conference room at work, say you work for Apple or Facebook or an accounting firm or a law firm. Bob Smith says X which you disagree with, and Jim Jones backs him up. You then look at Jim and go, "Jim, who are you, Bob's cockholster?" Then you look around for the laughs.

See how well that goes over. It's pure homophobia.

You won't see me at any LGBT rallies because rallies are not my thing, just like you won't see me at any PETA rallies. But I know animal cruelty when I see it, and I know homophobia when I see it. It's revealing that folks here are going to the mat defending these kinds of homophobic attacks. It's left as an... exercise to the reader... as to why.
   1397. tshipman Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5713797)
It's really not worth engaging Ray on homophobia because he doesn't care about it, and is transparently using it only as a rhetorical cudgel. He doesn't care when any GOP politician, for instance, is homophobic.

(it should go without saying that it's not worth engaging SBB on anything)

That said, I do think that people gave Davo far too short of shrift with his objections earlier in the thread. The "cockholster" stuff really is problematic. It's not okay to re-use tropes of intolerance and misogyny just because they are directed at an opponent.
   1398. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5713798)
That said, I do think that people gave Davo far too short of shrift with his objections earlier in the thread.


Yes, and you can tell that because they focused on his literal language rather than on his broad point.
   1399. DavidFoss Posted: July 22, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5713801)
Yes, and you can tell that because they focused on his literal language rather than on his broad point.

The broad point being that focusing on overreactions from Trump's poor performance in Helsinki is a great way to divert attention away from Trump's poor performance in Helsinki.
   1400. tshipman Posted: July 22, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5713806)
The broad point being that focusing on overreactions from Trump's poor performance in Helsinki is a great way to divert attention away from Trump's poor performance in Helsinki.


Right, I mean, let's be clear here:

Ray and SBB are bringing this kind of shopworn argument up again because things are going very badly for Trump. Rather than talk about that, they want to change the subject, so they go back to this stuff again.

People aren't treating the complaint of homophobia seriously because the complainants aren't serious about it. Ray and SBB just want to talk about anything but.
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