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Monday, July 16, 2018

OTP 2018 July 16: Why Does President Trump Balk At Attending Baseball Games?

As the World Cup finale plays in my living room, it’s seems like the right time to reflect on “America’s pastime” – baseball – and its curious standing these days.

The sport gets it close-up on Tuesday night, when the Major-League All-Star Game is played in the nation’s capital. President Trump is not expected to be attendance, though he easily could zip over to the festivities upon his return from his meeting with Vladimir Putin.

Dating back to William Howard Taft in 1910, every president has done the season’s ceremonial first pitch at least once. So far, Trump’s twice declined to participate in that ritual.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM | 1502 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   201. Lassus Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5710937)
"Witch hunt" does not mean that nobody anywhere in the world did anything wrong

This is, actually, exactly what witch hunt means, as the original witch hunts were against women who WERE NOT WITCHES.
   202. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5710938)
"witch hunt" means that no evidence has been presented, after all this time, that Trump and his inner circle are guilty of collusion.
That is not even remotely in the same zip code as the definition of witch hunt.

You're badly confused as to concepts. "Witch hunt" does not mean that nobody anywhere in the world did anything wrong;
EDIT: Nevermind. Coke to Lassus, who beat me to it. Or, slight clarification to Lassus's statement: it's not that the original witch hunts were against women who weren't witches. It's that there isn't such a thing as witches. So it's not that witch hunts targeted the wrong people, it's that witch hunts are inherently unfair by their very existence since nobody at all is guilty.
   203. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5710948)
The worst thing about Trump's treasonous performance today is that nobody saw it coming.
   204. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5710949)
I think we need a scale for how much trouble Trump is in based on the most ordinarily pro-Trump Republican/conservative who criticizes him.

e.g. something like this:
10.0 Hannity
9.9 Pence
9.2 Fox & Friends
8.8 Tucker Carlson
7.5 McConnell
7.0 Laura Ingram
6.8 Gingrich
6.7 Coulter
6.1 Joe Walsh
5.5 DRUDGE
5.0 Paul Ryan
4.8 WSJ Edit Page
4.4 Ben Shapiro
3.6 Graham
2.6 McCain
1.4 Jeff Flake
0.1 Bret Stephens
0.0 Kasich


I feel like setting Kasich as a baseline 0 is actually insulting to Republicans/conservatives... except, I suppose, they've made their beds and perhaps in reality - made it viable.

I mean, FFS - Kasich is no liberal. He's no RINO. I'd argue he even constitutes 'centrist'.

If John Kasich, luminary of the Gingrich revolution, two-term governor of perhaps the most critical GOP state is now ground zero, persona non grata in the Republican party and conservative movement?

Jeebus... Bernie Sanders isn't even a Democrat, but in a hypothetical Hillary administration, I wouldn't even call him the zero baseline. I wouldn't even call Ralph Nader that.

John Kasich is a pretty center-right conservative. Maybe he's mellowed a bit from his 90s heyday, but pretending like he's suddenly some kind of RINO because he occasionally takes locally pragmatic stances and doesn't play the ridiculous game of Death to the Opposition is stupid.

It just feeds more and more in my point of the last couple months of why shouldn't I/we adopt the same Trumpkin stance?

I mean, Kasich is a guy I feel like a lucid, reasonable, non-revolutionary Democrat could at least work with... I wouldn't expect a lot of agreement or even necessarily comity - but at least I could feel like you could sit down at the table, not have it devolve into a shouting match, and ultimately end up with at least the possibility of hammering out a compromise on whatever.

But - if Kasich is truly that... a complete non-entity... then explain to me why I shouldn't just be bizarro Trumpkin. FFS, you stupid Trumpkins have turned John freaking Kasich into the mirror of... cripes... what? I cannot even come up with an equivalent. It's not even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Probably the next primary challenger to AOC.

If that's the scale you play, #### it. There's absolutely no other logical choice than just root for the Democratic Socialists to take over the Democratic party... to go full Code Pink... you name it.

It's stupid not to.
   205. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5710951)
   206. Lassus Posted: July 16, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5710953)
how utterly incompetent Hillary and her team was?
So sad that this is the fallback. It's true.


I'll dispute this. You can't plan for insanity and mass stupidity.
   207. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5710955)
Who would be the Democratic equivalent of John Kasich?

I originally was thinking Mark Warner, but that's not right.

Diane Feinstein maybe? BITD, I suppose you could say she was more on the liberal wing of the party...mellowed into - or hey, go ahead and say the party shifted leftward too - into more of a fulcrum Democrat.

   208. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5710956)
NY Daily News, tomorrow's front page.

That is the coldest political cartoon I've ever seen in my life. If Herblock's 64 year old depiction of Nixon crawling out of a sewer was a 7 on a 10 scale, that front page is a 10+. I only hope my local 7-11 still carries the News.
   209. bookbook Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5710958)
Zonk, I think you’re misunderstanding Nate’s scale. It isn’t about political positions at all. It’s about the willingness to criticize Trump for being immature, corrupt, unAmerican, treasonous, etc.

John Kasich is a solid Conservative (though rational enough to accept Medicaid expansion for his state). He refused to attend the GOP convention and did not endorse Trump for president. He, unlike many others who knew better, has been steadfast in his refusal to speak well of a man who has no business being President.

Kasich on many positions is to the right of Trump. It isn’t a left-right scale that inspires criticism of Trump.
   210. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:04 PM (#5710959)
Cornyn added that he thought the 12 Russians indicted last week by special counsel Robert Mueller should be extradited to the U.S., but acknowledged that would be “wishful thinking.”


It would be wishful thinking under a non-Trump President.


Not only won't they, they shouldn't be. It wasn't a criminal act. It was an act of war. they were military officers acting under orders from their government. It would be like Pakistan or Yemen demanding extradition of drone operators. Or the US demanding extradition of the Japanese pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor.

Treating it as a criminal act trivializes the fact that it was a state sponsored act of war.
   211. BrianBrianson Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5710960)
Who would be the Democratic equivalent of John Kasich?


Probably, Joe Biden.
   212. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5710961)

That is the coldest political cartoon I've ever seen in my life


Is there any way to buy prints of that? Because, if there is, I just found the perfect birthday gift for my father, though I'm not sure he'll appreciate it ...
   213. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5710963)
Tsk tsk tsk, a tough vote for Democrats gets even tougher (by ceasing to exist):

House GOP reverses, cancels vote on Dem bill to abolish ICE:

In a surprising reversal, House GOP leaders have scrapped a floor vote on a Democratic measure calling for the abolishment of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

...............GOP leaders thought Democrats in swing districts would be reluctant to criticize the federal agency responsible for fighting human and drug trafficking and border enforcement. But Democrats responded by vowing to vote “no” and dismissed it as an election year show vote.

.......................After being told of the GOP’s change of course, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Monday the idea was silly to begin with. “They never should have brought it up in the first place,” Pelosi told The Hill. “I don’t know what they’re doing. They keep changing their minds.”

The "now we'll paint 'em into a corner" tactic lasted even less time than the initial "abolish ICE" bill did.

Giving Democrats in tight House races the chance to shut their opponents down by going on the record with a "no" vote (much like this year's successful "I won't support Pelosi" candidates)? While a prank vote turns into a public referendum on locking kidnapped children in cages? Turns out that strategy has some drawbacks.

They're going to hold a "vote yes if you love ICE" replacement vote instead.
   214. bookbook Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5710964)
The Democratic equivalent of Kasich is a question of which prominent Democrat was most critical of Hillary.

Honestly, I don’t think you’ll find a parallel. (Despite the campaign rhetoric, she’s neither corrupt nor incompetent, so the criticism tends to be more subtle—maybe Kristin Gillibrand?)
   215. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5710970)
Who would be the Democratic equivalent of John Kasich?


Ben Nelson.
   216. bookbook Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5710974)
Double post. Sorry
   217. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5710977)
No problem.
   218. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5710978)
No problem.
   219. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5710979)
No problem.
   220. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5710981)
Zonk, I think you’re misunderstanding Nate’s scale. It isn’t about political positions at all. It’s about the willingness to criticize Trump for being immature, corrupt, unAmerican, treasonous, etc.

John Kasich is a solid Conservative (though rational enough to accept Medicaid expansion for his state). He refused to attend the GOP convention and did not endorse Trump for president. He, unlike many others who knew better, has been steadfast in his refusal to speak well of a man who has no business being President.

Kasich on many positions is to the right of Trump. It isn’t a left-right scale that inspires criticism of Trump.


I get that, but jeebus... America exists in a two-party system. Certain elements of that binary divide inevitably - and properly - degrade over time into a detente on issues that just fade into the background. The 60s era civil rights debate probably are (or should be) a good example of that. An instance where the two parties rightly and properly coagulate towards "what is right and proper" and essentially drop their political expediency as at least a party impetus, even if both parties certainly try to salvage some crumbs of an electorate that doesn't move nearly so fast.

The Kasich exile just feels different than Zell Miller or Lincoln Chafee.

To the extent it's a reflection of a partisan stumbling block - essentially, Iraq and the GWOT for both Miller and Chafee - that doesn't seem in play here... or at least, it seems different.

So, sure - I suppose I understand why one might set Kasich as the 0.0... and maybe - as an avowed Democrat and a steadfast liberal - I ought to be happy (at least on one level) that an inoffensive conservative like Kasich gets exiled because he's basically... well... inoffensive.

But - I just think that's a really sad statement of the GOP and conservatism. The idea that a guy whose apostasy boils down to one main item: his refusal to cockholster Trump, maybe at best two ancillary problems ("just bake the cake" and accepting the ACA state-level subdsidies) means he's done as even a voice to be listened to?

That's just ridiculous. Even if you pretend that Obama is the bizarro Trump (which is patently ridiculous) - even Joe Lieberman didn't actually get that sort of hand-waving dismissal. Sure, sure - he very much got primaried (and lost) over his diametrical opposition to the most pressing issue of the day.... and anti-Iraq Democrats never forgave him, no doubt (I certainly never did)... but he still kept his committee seats/chairs.... he still ultimately had a fair amount of power and oomph right up until he left the Senate.... etc.

I mean, weepy Joe was never anything approaching even a bog standard Democrat to begin with. FFS, Buckley backed him over Weicker in his first Senate run.

Yet - the practical reality is that weepy Joe retained a far higher standing - and more influence - in the Democratic party after the Democratic base actually was done with him than John Kasich has despite the fact that Joe spent a nearly decade as a thorn in the Democratic party/to anti-Iraq liberals than Kasich has in the inverse.

It's freaking nuts.
   221. Hank Gillette Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5710984)
The New Yorker suggests that Trump’s investment in a Scottish gold club is nothing more than a
money laundering scheme.

It is odd that Trump had trouble getting any bank to loan him money, and was reduced to franchising his name for other peoples hotels and real estate ventures, but then suddenly has $200 million in cash to buy and renovate a money losing golf club.
   222. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5710985)
The Democratic equivalent of Kasich is a question of which prominent Democrat was most critical of Hillary.

Honestly, I don’t think you’ll find a parallel. (Despite the campaign rhetoric, she’s neither corrupt nor incompetent, so the criticism tends to be more subtle—maybe Kristin Gillibrand?)


The problem is likely that you have to go left to find one.

Which only feeds into my over-arching point... maybe I'm the moron for being a center-left liberal. Perhaps I should be amendable to more radical leftist Democrats and just wait until the sturm und drang brings about a Democratic majority where ~45% of the country isn't even part of the discussion and us center-left liberals lock themselves in a room with the Democratic Socialists and hammer out a deal that comes up Hastert rule votes - with the occasional margins-hand-scrawled tax reform that doesn't particularly pique the far left's interests worked out among leadership.

Seems a really shitty and bad way to govern, but it's worked for the GOP... 20 of the last 24 years in the House, at least.
   223. bookbook Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5710986)
You make good points, Zonk. Maybe Mark Warner will run?
   224. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5710989)
I'm not even going to bother listening to the clips...

But apparently, Trump just relayed to Hannity that the Mueller probe is a primary topic of conversation and the Hannity-Putin-Trump conclusion is that it's a witch hunt that is preventing great things from happening between the US and Russia.

Yes, I'm sure.

Nothing would help Joe Factory worker more than better relations with the US's 30th best trade partner - ranking below Hong Kong, Vietnam, Chile, and virtually every nation in the EU.

   225. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5710990)
You make good points, Zonk. Maybe Mark Warner will run?


I tend to suspect he'd be a Democratic HW... competent... boring... and completely at the mercy of prevailing economic conditions for purposes of his electoral fortunes.

He'd inspire no love... and probably not much hate... who knows, maybe that's what the country needs, IDK.

   226. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5710994)
That is the coldest political cartoon I've ever seen in my life

Is there any way to buy prints of that? Because, if there is, I just found the perfect birthday gift for my father, though I'm not sure he'll appreciate it ...


I'm just hoping our local 7-11 and CVS still carry the Daily News, because if they do, I'm going to buy them both out first thing in the morning.
   227. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5711002)
John Brennan caught up with me today. "Nothing short of treasonous." Obvious "high crimes and misdemeanors." In Putin's "pocket."


It's best not to take anything Brennan says seriously. This is Exhibit A.
   228. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5711003)
@oliverdarcy:
Anderson Cooper after presser: "You have been watching perhaps one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president..."


When I said it's best not to take John Brennan seriously I didn't mean, of course, that Anderson Cooper should be taken more seriously than him.
   229. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5711004)
It's best not to take anything Brennan says seriously. This is Exhibit A.


Yeah. What Trump did today isn't nearly as harmful to the country as lying about sex.

Yeah, yeah. Lying under oath. About sex. In a civil suit deposition.

What Trump did on this trip could set back US Foreign policy and relations with our Allies for decades.
   230. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:55 PM (#5711005)
When I said it's best not to take John Brennan seriously I didn't mean, of course, that Anderson Cooper should be taken more seriously than him.


I'm no Presidential historian, so I'm open to examples of worse ones. But one should also note the "perhaps" and "one of" qualifiers.
   231. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:04 AM (#5711007)
As opposed to all of the people who _want_ to be under federal investigation?

Ah, because there's nothing unique about the current situation, right?

How about this... Trump excuses himself from the Presidency while the investigation plays out.


I'd just as soon not listen to suggestions about how to fix problems from someone who has fled to Canada.
   232. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:18 AM (#5711008)
You guys don't understand. Ray guessed that Trump would win the GOP nomination over one month before the first primary. A month! And nothing Trump can do, and nothing any of you can say, is going to take away his core reason for being.
   233. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:23 AM (#5711009)
What Trump did on this trip could set back US Foreign policy and relations with our Allies for decades.


Calm down and straighten your vision, it's nothing like that.

You folks have a tough time seeing the world, which is fairly ironic given that you spend so much of your time during the day hunched over your keyboards following this stuff as one would follow pitches in a baseball game.

Trump understood that the approach of previous administrations hadn't worked -- I mean, look at where it got us. A 12 year old could see this. Trump also understood that he can't fix all of the bad things Putin/Russia has done in the past. And he understood that calling someone names whose country you're trying to improve relations with isn't actually all that productive a strategy. So Trump did his typical thing; he threw out past norms that hadn't worked in favor of pacing and leading: he allowed Putin to have his own podium in an attempt to gain a measure of trust from Putin. (There was actually a hint of this in Hillary and Obama's Russia Reset strategy.)

There is no one on the planet whose lives will be negatively impacted by this. At worst relations don't improve, but perhaps they do in time, and with it the lives of people particularly those living in Russia. Or we could do it the old way which is sure to accomplish nothing.

One can disagree with this strategy. But to call it treasonous or traitorous is, as ever, a laugh. (As to the criticism of our intelligence agencies: Have people read what the IG has had to say? Our intelligence agencies, via Comey, McCabe, Strzok did themselves no favors. They acted with poor judgment or lack of professionalism at several turns.)

Now, alternatively, one could be correct that Putin has something on Trump. I mean, sure, that fits the facts as well. It's the more convoluted explanation born of the fact that folks still don't understand Trump, after all this time.
   234. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:24 AM (#5711010)
Our President's despicable performance as Putin's compromised bitch got universal contempt... but only at first. Now, it's getting MIXED reviews!


Rep. Dana Rohrabacher:
"They found it in their interest to meddle in our elections. But what the point is — we meddle in their elections. We meddle all over the world at a much higher rate than what Moscow does. And maybe it's all wrong, but the fact is we helped overthrow the government of Ukraine."

He added that the Trump campaign "didn't collude" with Russia and "what we saw today will put that to bed."

(House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, caught on tape in 2016: “There’s two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump.”)


Rep. Darrell Issa:
"I think just last week in these very halls, we saw an example of the FBI not being trustworthy. We saw the downgrading of Hillary Clinton's criminal activity with the words being changed on Peter Strzok's own computer, so for the president to cast doubt is not unreasonable.
...I personally would neither rule in nor rule out the validity of a very interesting and odd-timed indictment of people who can never be brought to justice, and for whom there's even a question of 'How do we know?' Did we use spy technique in order to find out? Did we hack them in order to find out who they were? So, I think for the president to cast doubt is appropriate. On the validity of a whole number of these things."

(It could be somebody sitting at FBI Headquarters that weighs 400 pounds, okay?)


VP Mike Pence:
"What the world saw, what the American people saw, is that President Donald Trump will always put the prosperity and security of America first."

(What a shame that Trump-deranged people see only what they want to see.)
   235. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:33 AM (#5711011)
I'm now fully caught up to the thread. People have really lost their minds. How DO you folks make it through a week, a month, a lifetime going insane and baying at the moon at every turn like this?

But I guess those windmills won't tilt at themselves.

Ordinarily my suggestion would be to just unplug from politics on a day to day basis, given that you're not intelligent enough or grounded enough to handle it. But I suspect that politics isn't the only aspect of your life in which you behave in this way. So I'm not sure what good unplugging from this particular socket would do, at the end of the day.
   236. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:34 AM (#5711012)
What Trump did on this trip could set back US Foreign policy and relations with our Allies for decades.

No, it's more of an either/or thing than a time thing. If the American right follows Trump from the western alliance of liberal democracies to an alliance with the backwards-ass Russians, then time won't fix the problem. There's an obvious cultural affinity here, which the right seems to have finally figured out. That's all there is, as American political and economic standing would take an enormous hit, but it's not at all clear that the Republican Party gives a #### about anything but cultural issues anyway.
   237. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:43 AM (#5711013)
#235, sentence by sentence:
I'm now fully caught up to the thread. Everyone's crazy but me. Everyone's crazy but me. Everyone's crazy but me. You're all too stupid not to be crazy. You're probably crazy offline, too. None of you will ever not be crazy.
   238. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:46 AM (#5711015)
There is no one on the planet whose lives will be negatively impacted by this.

I think JE would strenuously object to the assertion that the President of the United States happily getting cucked by Putin has no negative impact.
   239. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:48 AM (#5711016)
Paul Ryan must be getting all squirrely in the kennel Trump puts him in when he travels...

“There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy here and around the world. That is not just the finding of the American intelligence community but also the House Committee on Intelligence. The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence between the United States and Russia, which remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals. The United States must be focused on holding Russia accountable and putting an end to its vile attacks on democracy.”

---

“President Trump must clarify his statements in Helsinki on our intelligence system and Putin. It is the most serious mistake of his presidency and must be corrected—immediately,” Newt Gingrich, former speaker of the House and an informal adviser to Trump, tweeted on Monday evening.


By and large this isn't a left-right thing; it's a ruling class thing. The ruling class -- the elites of both parties -- are incapable of seeing the world any other way because they've been steeped in groupthink all their lives. Enter Trump who is not similarly shackled. This isn't to say that Trump's view of the world is necessarily better (or worse), but it's certainly going to be different. We knew this, when a non-career-politician won the presidency.

That explains this far more than the simplethink about Putin having "dirt" on Trump does.

It's also clear that outsiders can't reliably assess this situation because they don't have all of the information that Putin and Trump do. They don't know what's been said behind closed doors, etc.
   240. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM (#5711017)
Ray's nightly lectures on American Politics are by far the best part of this thread.
   241. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:57 AM (#5711020)
You sound crazy. Are you crazy?
   242. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5711021)
@oliverdarcy:
Anderson Cooper after presser: "You have been watching perhaps one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president..."



When I said it's best not to take John Brennan seriously I didn't mean, of course, that Anderson Cooper should be taken more seriously than him.


Name one more disgraceful.

I know from your Trumpkin view - anything angled or presented as a sleight towards Dear Leader is immediately to be written off... but - why don't you, just for a moment, attempt to extract yourself from that derangement you claim others suffer from.

The United States in its current, constitutional form has existed for nearly 230 years. It has had 44 different individuals that have occupied the office that is undeniably constitutionally specified as our head of state, the singular individual responsible for negotiations and discussions with other nations.

During that time, the US has watched empires rise and fall.

We fought to become independent from the British, fought them again, wrangled with them for a century, then allied with them in two great wars - and built perhaps the most successful partnership in liberalizing and progressing the grand western democratic world order that really doesn't get the appreciation it deserves*...

We muzzled up to the French for our own independence - fell back to our own reasonable best interests when it was the wisest path, and then - until 1812 - wisely stepped aside when culottes or sans became equal contention to emperor vs king, before holding the line in the first half of the 20th century and pushing forward a generation later.

The Spanish joined the Revolutionary War, too - though entirely for their own purposes - and we basically helped ourselves to their imperial scraps a century later even while proclaiming we were leading a grand freeing of peoples from the yoke of imperialism. After that, the Spanish were little more than afterthought - failing monarchy, shaky Republic, fascist non-combatant, stalwart anti-communist ally. You can go around the globe - it's European focused because of the national lineage - but sure, the US as a nation has been expedient, often most concerned with its immediate best interests, compromising, etc.

It only gets more convoluted if one adds our strictly 20th century allies/adversaries/both into the mix.

Through all of it - I defy you find a United States President who has stood beside the leader of a foreign government and actively sided against his own nation's various security forces.

Impressment in the early 19th century - and the extent to which the US factionalized over seizing Canada or going to war over a then-common naval practice... The Mexican war - when plenty of US citizens, including famous glitterati like Thoreau and Emerson, who opposed what was clearly a land grab, albeit a popular one.... The Spanish-American war, when the the same held sway but on a imperial scale, and it was the Twains who (albeit late to the game) horrified the national course.

Through it all - through the bobs, weaves, alliances and adversaries - you'll find not a single US President that has stood on stage with the leader of another nation and proclaimed his own country was stupid and that his own nation's ministers (including those he himself appointed) are wrong about the actions or intents of the leader thereof.

For people who - just last month - was preaching to high heaven about the holy importance of national borders, the sacrosanct nature of the nation state, and the ironclad letter of the national law.... when it comes to some Honduran widow needing to be separated from her toddler....

I really have to say...

Are you SERIOUSLY that ####### idiotic?
   243. zenbitz Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:10 AM (#5711023)
Oh joy, Ray gets to play "adult in the room" again.

Not a good look, mang.

Serious hypothetical: If Trump rejected Romney for SOS based on consultation with Russian government or even business interests, would THAT be enough for you to damn him?
   244. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5711024)
I love when Ray has nostalgia moments and pretends it's 1980 again.

You know, a binary world where it actually matters as much to the US as it does to Russia.

Less deranged individuals would note that Russia is basically on the dividing line between being a 1st and 2nd world economy - they don't matter as a trade partner, and they need us more than we need them. Less deranged individuals would also note that Russia - like plenty of other nations - have appetites for neighboring territory. Less deranged individuals would recognize that this unfortunate fact means that the US probably cannot and should not view this situation as a war vs not war situation. Less deranged individuals would recognize that the best course of a nation like the US would be to lead other western democracies in an alliance that uses its economic might and aggregate military deterrent to force bad actors to back down.

But - Ray, like his Dear Leader and Dilbobert - is not less deranged. He's still riding a heroin orgasm from 20 months ago because HA! Hillary!
   245. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:16 AM (#5711026)
Serious hypothetical: If Trump rejected Romney for SOS based on consultation with Russian government or even business interests, would THAT be enough for you to damn him?


Of course not.

The Trumpkins have clearly set the bar to the level that absent a cartoon bag with a ₽ - it won't count.

They bought lifetime passes and they'll keep using them until the whorehouse closes and they pretend they shouldn't really count as customers.
   246. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:36 AM (#5711028)
@oliverdarcy:
Anderson Cooper after presser: "You have been watching perhaps one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president..."

When I said it's best not to take John Brennan seriously I didn't mean, of course, that Anderson Cooper should be taken more seriously than him.


242. Name one more disgraceful.

Well there's that time Bill Clinton blew up a pharmacy and killed a few thousand Sudanese children. Or the time Nixon carpet-bombed the hell out of Cambodia and murdered several hundred thousand people. Oh or the time FDR denied entry to a ship containing a thousand Jewish refugees and ordered them back to Germany and certain death. Or the time....
   247. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 17, 2018 at 02:27 AM (#5711033)
It's incredible that there is no effective propagandist on the Democrats'/Left's side online. Serious. There is nobody even close to effective and singular in voice/message.

I've long felt (paging you Perros) that there is something in the modern Left that is missing, and a sense of cutting "meme-ery" (if you will) is a big shortcoming. I think it's largely a a self inflicted wound.
   248. Lassus Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:16 AM (#5711034)
There is no one on the planet whose lives will be negatively impacted by this.

A quote from the person living in a Trump Manhattan highrise who calls other people "elites".
   249. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:41 AM (#5711035)
Yeah, it’s high comedy indeed when our own Little Lord Fauntleray, the cloistered Human Veal, descends from Olympus to explain, “You folks have a tough time seeing the world, which is fairly ironic given that you spend so much of your time during the day hunched over your keyboards following this stuff as one would follow pitches in a baseball game”. Nobody takes such chastisements from a pampered, prissy little fancy lad the least bit seriously, so estranged from reality and deeply ensconced in his perfumed bubble as he is.

And that’s before noting that it’s hard to keep a straight face when the boy who claimed entire fields of science were an international conspiracy that may have suckered thousands of professional scientists but not him. Fortunately he later upgrade his position to, “I never said that,” which shows that his obsession from Trumpian dishonesty is not a recent dalliance with mendacity.

The Little Lord is not to be trusted. He is a deeply unserious person.
   250. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:51 AM (#5711036)
Oh joy, Ray gets to play "adult in the room" again.


Every time his tries to contribute to a three I’m reminded of why “Allen Gregory” was cancelled before it even completed its first season.
   251. . Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:54 AM (#5711037)
What Trump did on this trip could set back US Foreign policy and relations with our Allies for decades.


Not decades.

CENTURIES!!!!
   252. . Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:59 AM (#5711038)
I'm now fully caught up to the thread. People have really lost their minds. How DO you folks make it through a week, a month, a lifetime going insane and baying at the moon at every turn like this?

But I guess those windmills won't tilt at themselves.

Ordinarily my suggestion would be to just unplug from politics on a day to day basis, given that you're not intelligent enough or grounded enough to handle it. But I suspect that politics isn't the only aspect of your life in which you behave in this way. So I'm not sure what good unplugging from this particular socket would do, at the end of the day.


Social media driven political commentary is in many ways what religion and spirituality used to be. We've kind of ... cough ... progressed ... from a very functional and nurturing social and civic life involving face to face interactions with many others to Bowling Alone to incessant online tribalist virtue signaling.
   253. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:02 AM (#5711039)
You're a piece of ####.
   254. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:11 AM (#5711040)
Trump: I believe Putin's denial because he was strong and powerful in denying.

What's wrong with that logic? He's a very stable genius.


edit...Watch the Dancing Monkeys do all of Trump's heavy lifting by explaining what Trump REALLY meant by that.
   255. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:17 AM (#5711041)
You're a piece of ####


Someday you may need someone to protect you from a murderous knife-wielding maniac using only a bungee cord, and when that day comes you’ll regret alienating our Sub-Beta Bronson.
   256. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:47 AM (#5711044)
242. Name one more disgraceful.

Well there's that time Bill Clinton blew up a pharmacy and killed a few thousand Sudanese children.


How did all those Sudanese children fit in a pharmacy? Did it have a basement?

   257. . Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:55 AM (#5711045)
dit...Watch the Dancing Monkeys do all of Trump's heavy lifting by explaining what Trump REALLY meant by that.


It was an absurd display, but you and yours hyperventilate every single day about this or that Trumpian "absurdity." And then you and yours overreact even when you're correct about the absurdity.

I explained Trump's "foreign policy" around 7 pm last night. It's upthread. There's no reason to think there will even be any substantive carryover from yesterday's absurdity. That assumes a seriousness and consistency to Trump that simply isn't there. If there is substantive carryover, then there will be more to discuss. Most likely, you and yours will hyperventilate, if I comment it will be analytical and measured, and you and yours will respond with the clown wig and shoes "Trumpkin" routine.
   258. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 06:57 AM (#5711046)
Thanks for weighing in, Monkey.
   259. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:01 AM (#5711047)
Some serious people seem to think that hat Trump did was extremely damaging...but they're all just hyperventilating, too, I guess.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!
   260. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:03 AM (#5711048)
   261. Greg K Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:08 AM (#5711049)
I think the consequence that comes to mind for me is the eroding of confidence in NATO guarantees.

I think at this point most NATO members are relatively confident that Article 5 still holds. But that's a downgrade from totally confident, and the future seems even more uncertain. Maybe (as is maybe the goal?) that inspires NATO nations to continue upping their expenditure. But maybe that also causes some of the eastern members to start hedging. In general, uncertainty and international stability don't seem to go hand in hand. I can see yesterday's press conference creating quite reasonable anxiety in Europe.
   262. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:13 AM (#5711050)
####### Chris Wallace was tougher with Putin than our Orange Coward. Typical bully, Trump is. He idolizes Putin. SAD!
   263. . Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:17 AM (#5711051)
I can see yesterday's press conference creating quite reasonable anxiety in Europe.


And I can see Trump issuing stronger warnings than other presidents would if Putin acts up again. There's no rhyme or reason there, no carryover from one thing to the next. Trump may also cravenly let Putin get away with ####. Like I said, when there's actual substance to discuss, it can be discussed.
   264. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:18 AM (#5711052)
7.0 Laura Ingram


Not there yet.

Fox News host Laura Ingraham played down concerns about President Donald Trump’s foreign policy strategy after his performances at a NATO summit, on a visit to the U.K., and after a one-on-one meeting with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin.

“It's complex,” Ingraham said of foreign policy during a panel discussion on her show The Ingraham Angle Monday night. "[Trump is] new to it… he's a year and a half into this."


   265. Greg K Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:21 AM (#5711053)
And I can see Trump issuing stronger warnings than other presidents would if Putin acts up again. There's no rhyme or reason there, no carryover from one thing to the next.

I think that's the problem. Or one of the problems.

Unpredictability might be a good negotiating tactic, or rhetorical device, but it's not great for nations making foreign policy decisions. That's sort of the logic under-pinning multi-lateralism. When nations are better able to predict the behaviour of other nations through rules and norms they can avoid the sorts of pitfalls nations have historically fallen into.
   266. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:21 AM (#5711054)
Like I said, when there's actual substance to discuss, it can be discussed.


#### you. Trump steps in it every day, deeper and deeper, and yet, you still search for substance. You are a willfully Blind Dancing Monkey, #### off and die.
   267. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:21 AM (#5711055)

Trump understood that the approach of previous administrations hadn't worked -- I mean, look at where it got us. A 12 year old could see this.
Shorter Ray: Trump and Ray are as dumb as 12 year olds.

Which is not really fair to 12 year olds, but whatever.
   268. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:22 AM (#5711056)
And I can see Trump issuing stronger warnings than other presidents would if Putin acts up again.


You can see a leprechaun too if you want to believe strongly enough.

“I have President Putin. He just said it’s not Russia,” Trump said at a press conference after the pair met.

“I will say this: I don’t see any reason why it would be… I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.

“And what he did is an incredible offer. He offered to have the people working on [Mueller’s] case come and work with their investigators with respect to the 12 people [Russians indicted for electoral interference]. I think that’s an incredible offer.”


So strong! So powerful! What a man!

Trump really is a #####.
   269. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:23 AM (#5711057)
Good thing no one is listening to the Guilianis of the world who call for an end to the Mueller investigation, huh?
   270. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:23 AM (#5711058)
Trump understood that the approach of previous administrations hadn't worked -- I mean, look at where it got us. A 12 year old could see this.

Shorter Ray: Trump and Ray are as dumb as 12 year olds.


I’ve noticed that NOT eating #### hasn’t helped anyone develop psychic powers. The next step is obvious to an enlightened reader.
   271. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:24 AM (#5711059)

It's also clear that outsiders can't reliably assess this situation because they don't have all of the information that Putin and Trump do. They don't know what's been said behind closed doors, etc.
Everyone here has more information than Trump does.
   272. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 17, 2018 at 07:29 AM (#5711060)
FOX Business channel blames Trump's performance yesterday on stress of Mueller investigation. LOL!


edit...their angle is that the investigation should end because nothing they have made public to date has anything to do with Trump. LOLOL! They assume there are no cards being held close to the vest.

   273. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:10 AM (#5711063)
When do you think Putin will start forcing Trump to refer to himself as Reek in public like he already does in private?
   274. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:17 AM (#5711065)
That is the coldest political cartoon I've ever seen in my life

Is there any way to buy prints of that? Because, if there is, I just found the perfect birthday gift for my father, though I'm not sure he'll appreciate it ...


I went to our local 7-11 and CVS this morning to try to get a copy of the Daily News, but no luck. I did, however, find a copy of the paper on ebay. It's not cheap ($9.99 + shipping) but AFAIC it's well worth it. I'm not sure how many copies are available, but when I bought mine there were 9 left.
   275. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:23 AM (#5711067)
Trump understood that the approach of previous administrations hadn't worked -- I mean, look at where it got us. A 12 year old could see this.


Um, what? The US is the most power nation the world has ever seen. We are a military, economic and cultural super power. We lead (or maybe led, tanks Trump!) the most powerful military, economic, and cultural alliance of nations on earth (and it is no even close).

If Trump had an actual approach, a coherent world view, that would be one thing. But Ray is defending and endorsing nonsense. I hope he is just trolling and realizes it is nonsense.
   276. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:25 AM (#5711068)
It's also clear that outsiders can't reliably assess this situation because they don't have all of the information that Putin and Trump do. They don't know what's been said behind closed doors, etc.

Everyone here has more information than Trump does.


No, no, no. There is totally secret information, a secret plan, where all this makes total sense. Or something.
   277. Howie Menckel Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:25 AM (#5711069)
don't panic!

I clicked the link, and now it says, "More than 10 available / 2 sold in 24 hours"

$3.45 shipping, ouch
   278. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:45 AM (#5711073)
There is no one on the planet whose lives will be negatively impacted by this.

A quote from the person living in a Trump Manhattan highrise who calls other people "elites".


Not actually responsive.

This isn't about your deranged anti-Trump fetishes, nor is it about Trump and Putin. It's not about the American people either, who live in one of or the best countries in the world and aren't affected by anything Putin or Russia does. It's not about the thus-far non-existent collusion, or about the sideshow of election interference that had little to no effect. It's about the people of Russia. How long will they have to live under these conditions? We can keep going the way we were going, and their lives will not improve. Or we can try to change course. It's 2018. How long will we keep going with the old methods that led to this? Perhaps this can help change the situation for the people of Russia living under Putin. Certainly it's no worse than the alternative for them.

I just find it so interesting that the same folks who (rightly) can never stop talking about how people south of the border should be able to come here to improve their lives can't find enough compassion in their hearts to care about people living under Putin in Russia.
   279. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5711074)
278 is a novel Trumpkin defense of Trump, I'll give it that... certainly a unique way of Trumpsplaining things.
   280. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:55 AM (#5711075)
@oliverdarcy:
Anderson Cooper after presser: "You have been watching perhaps one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president..."

When I said it's best not to take John Brennan seriously I didn't mean, of course, that Anderson Cooper should be taken more seriously than him.


Name one more disgraceful.


Whatever Roosevelt said when he rolled out his racist executive order calling for Japanese Americans to be forced into internment camps.

For starters.

Anything any American president said defending slavery, or institutionalized racism, or segregation, for a second.

We can go on from there.

Long time before we get to anything that happened yesterday.
   281. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:57 AM (#5711076)
Anything any American president said defending slavery, or institutionalized racism, or segregation, for a second.


What if they only did it to try to help the poor children of Russia?
   282. DavidFoss Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:00 AM (#5711077)
I just find it so interesting that the same folks who (rightly) can never stop talking about how people south of the border should be able to come here to improve their lives can't find enough compassion in their hearts to care about people living under Putin in Russia.

There are lot of Russian immigrants in the USA. They've been welcomed here for decades. I went to school and have worked with many of them. You need to rescramble your mad-libs logic.

We get it. We all woke up today. The sun rose. The streets are not burning. We still had to go to work.
   283. Spahn Insane Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5711078)
Watch the Dancing Monkeys do all of Trump's heavy lifting by explaining what Trump REALLY meant by that.

One third of people can’t recognize humor, particularly in places where it’s not present.
   284. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:03 AM (#5711079)
Oh look -
Fox & Friends tries to hold an executive time intervention.... how cute.

“I will say this to the President: When Newt Gingrich, when General Jack Keane and Matt Schlapp said the President fell short and made our intelligence apparatus look bad, it’s time to pay attention,” said host Brian Kilmeade, quickly adding that the situation is easily correctible.
“Look, a lot of people get confused. I’m not saying the President is confused. A lot of people are confused about the Russia collusion thing,” chimed in host Steve Doocy. “There is a big difference between collusion and the meddling. The President says there was no collusion, and he is very strident about that. He says it every time. But pretty much everyone and their brother, except Vladimir Putin, knows that there was meddling.”


   285. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5711081)
Fallows...

The GOP can either defend the United States or serve the damaged and defective man who is now its president.

There are exactly two possible explanations for the shameful performance the world witnessed on Monday, from a serving American president.

Either Donald Trump is flat-out an agent of Russian interests—maybe witting, maybe unwitting, from fear of blackmail, in hope of future deals, out of manly respect for Vladimir Putin, out of gratitude for Russia’s help during the election, out of pathetic inability to see beyond his 306 electoral votes. Whatever the exact mixture of motives might be, it doesn’t really matter.

Or he is so profoundly ignorant, insecure, and narcissistic that he did not realize that, at every step, he was advancing the line that Putin hoped he would advance, and the line that the American intelligence, defense, and law-enforcement agencies most dreaded.

Conscious tool. Useful idiot. Those are the choices, though both are possibly true, so that the main question is the proportions.
   286. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5711082)
278 is a completely new level of cockholster crazy.
   287. Greg K Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5711083)
I just find it so interesting that the same folks who (rightly) can never stop talking about how people south of the border should be able to come here to improve their lives can't find enough compassion in their hearts to care about people living under Putin in Russia.

This seems sort of convenient though. Why does the concern for the well being of Russian citizens feature in US policy, but not the well being of Chinese or German citizens? It doesn't seem to fit with Trump's consistent America First rhetoric.

I mean, there is a policy tradition of improving relations in the hopes of bringing political freedom and economic prosperity to former rivals (the EU's expansion in Eastern Europe comes to mind). But has Trump given any indication that is his goal here? (Honest question, I admit I don't keep up with everything). It just seems a departure from his usual foreign policy.
   288. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5711085)
It seems a departure because Ray literally just made it up this morning.
   289. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5711086)
It's about the people of Russia. How long will they have to live under these conditions? We can keep going the way we were going, and their lives will not improve. Or we can try to change course. It's 2018. How long will we keep going with the old methods that led to this? Perhaps this can help change the situation for the people of Russia living under Putin. Certainly it's no worse than the alternative for them.


What the #### is this all about?

Is Ray saying Americans should be nice to Russia because Putin is a bad man?
If so, why does Trump trust Putin's word over his own intelligence community?
   290. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5711089)
Is Ray saying Americans should be nice to Russia because Putin is a bad man?


He's saying it's your fault Putin beats his peoples because you put him a bad mood by saying mean things about Putin, which just makes the bad Putin angry, thus leading to more beatings.

Donald Trump, big-hearted humanitarian that he is, understands this, but the rest of you - with your TDS - never cut him any slack for this big picture thinking.

Every time you say something mean about Trump & Putin, another Russian orphan gets a cigarette snuffed out on his arm. I hope you're happy, you monsters!
   291. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5711090)
Help Stinky?

"This was not the plan," said a US official directly involved with Helsinki summit, summing up the deflated response from an administration already suffering burnout, fatigue and disillusionment.


There was a plan?

Aides who traveled with the President in Europe boarded Air Force One around 8:30 pm Helsinki time Monday, leaving those back in Washington to field inquiries for the next eight-and-a-half hours. Those who answered their phones didn't have much to say.
"How bad was that?" one inquired, seeking to discern the impact of Trump's words.


You lost Newt bad.

Asked if anyone from the administration would resign over the President's remarks, a senior White House official quipped: "Good question."


A better one could whether the guy who made the remarks will resign.
   292. McCoy Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5711091)
Ray craziness-Cliff Notes version: You don't want to wake the dragon.
   293. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5711094)
One interesting side effect of the Trump-Russia stuff is that it’s given liberals an opportunity to use “faggot” as a synonym for “weak man” again. It must have been hard work to keep your homophobia and sexism hidden during the Obama years, or to constantly pretend to be outraged by the “Michelle Obama is a tranny!”-style attacks.
   294. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5711095)
I just find it so interesting that the same folks who (rightly) can never stop talking about how people south of the border should be able to come here to improve their lives can't find enough compassion in their hearts to care about people living under Putin in Russia.

278 is a novel Trumpkin defense of Trump, I'll give it that... certainly a unique way of Trumpsplaining things.

On the brighter side, at least Ray's expanded his TV repertory from Hawaii Five-0 to The Simpsons.

   295. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5711096)
One interesting side effect of the Trump-Russia stuff is that it’s given liberals an opportunity to use “faggot” as a synonym for “weak man” again.


Are you and Ray sharing the hallucinogenics this morning?
   296. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5711098)
One interesting side effect of the Trump-Russia stuff is that it’s given


loons an excuse to spout nonsense masquerading as a point in their unending war against the liberals.
   297. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5711101)
One interesting side effect of the Trump-Russia stuff is that it’s given liberals an opportunity to use “faggot” as a synonym for “weak man” again.


Wait...what? Has someone done that here? Or you just looking through twitter for the worst posts and saying that speaks for all people?

Because, I'm not sure you want to play that game with what crazy #### gets posted on twitter by the opposition to "liberals"....
   298. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5711105)
What we're hearing:

A former senior White House official, who worked closely with Trump, immediately texted us: “Need a shower.”
One of Trump's own former National Security Council officials texted: “Dude. This is a total [effing] disgrace. The President has lost his mind."
CBS "Face the Nation" anchor Margaret Brennan, who was in the audience, told AP she was messaging some U.S. officials during the speech who said they were turning off the television.


But my favorite is Drudge...

Drudge, usually a Trump champion, bannered: "PUTIN DOMINATES IN HEL."
   299. DavidFoss Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5711107)
Wait...what? Has someone done that here?

Not here (not today at least). It's dated humor. In the 90s, it was commonplace to label someone who is a bit too obsequious or subservient as being romantically interested and 'whipped'. Extra comedic effect if the gender of the person they are beholden to does not match their sexual preference.

Fast-forward 20 years and you now have the DailyCaller being the most vigilant guardians against homophobia as a bunch of thirty-somethings and forty-somethings keep telling the old jokes. Ironies abound.

I never thought of the etymologies of many of those other slang terms for 'obsequious'. What's the status of 'brown-nose', 'kiss-a##', 'suck-up', etc, etc? Not that I use any of those too often in a workplace setting...
   300. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5711112)
It's about the people of Russia. How long will they have to live under these conditions? We can keep going the way we were going, and their lives will not improve. Or we can try to change course. It's 2018. How long will we keep going with the old methods that led to this? Perhaps this can help change the situation for the people of Russia living under Putin. Certainly it's no worse than the alternative for them


Won't someone think of the ... children?

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