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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   1. villageidiom Posted: July 23, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5714035)
Link to prior thread, for reference.
   2. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5714041)
   3. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5714056)
The internet is a clear net negative. Not entirely negative, of course, but on balance clearly negative. Its ruining of the newspaper business is one of the major negatives.

It's actually becoming a key component of The Decline.
   4. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5714060)
Was off the grid (camping, Yellowstone) for ten days. Anything interesting happen?
   5. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5714064)
Trump's job approval rating is now just two points shy of Obama's last month in office.
   6. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5714067)
Indoor plumbing isn't going so great either.
   7. Shredder Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5714070)
Good God, the stupidity:
Ronna McDaniel
@GOPChairwoman

From open borders to government-guaranteed jobs, today's Democrats are no longer the party of FDR.
Yes, there was surely no greater foe of government guaranteed employment than FDR.
   8. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5714071)
Was off the grid (camping, Yellowstone) for ten days. Anything interesting happen?


Trump did stupid things.

Trumpkins said the real problem was people pointing out Trump's stupid things.

You are now caught up.
   9. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5714072)
So in a country of over 300 million people, wherein one of the more popular communications media limits the user to 140 characters, someone said something stupid.

Stop the presses.
   10. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5714077)
Stop the presses.


If we stopped the presses every time Trump or one of his lackeys availed themselves of his favorite communications media to say something stupid, the presses would never run.
   11. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5714078)
Well, if you made that comment before RTFA - well done... because -
Since I never get around to RTFA, yeah.
   12. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5714079)
If we stopped the presses every time Trump or one of his lackeys availed themselves of his favorite communications media to say something stupid, the presses would never run.

As pointed out this morning, the presses are stopping themselves in favor of following Trump's favorite communications media.
   13. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5714080)
99% of people aren't going to read the 412-page FISA warrant or the Nunes memo, much less understand either. A partisan news outlet can just call on some partisan expert to come on and say whatever they want. If you get enough partisan news outlets, you can always claim that people who disagree are being equally partisan.

There's lots of lawyers here. Any of you read the FISA warrant?
Nitpicks:
1. Most of that is warrant applications, not the warrants. (The warrants make up about 15% of those pages.)
2. It's not a warrant (application); it's four warrant (applications).

Substance: the vast majority of the pages are blacked out (which allows the Trumpkins to engage in the pure hackery of saying that there's nothing in there other than the dossier). But I read the unredacted stuff, yes.
   14. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5714083)
Moved from the previous thread....

But, yeah, the NYT is not a local newspaper. It has expressly refocused away from NYC coverage.

It's hard for me to tell, since we haven't been able to get the Late City edition in Washington for close to 30 years, but did the Times ever cover the Metro NYC area as a day-to-day news beat, with reporters filing lots of stories from City Hall or the boroughs? The Washington edition usually has 2 to 4 pages of New York news, but it's mostly devoted to interesting but rather timeless features on local businesses or local characters.

The sports section is even worse in that respect. Last year the Washington edition finally restored the Yankees and Mets game stories instead of just running paragraphs from the AP, but recently those "game stories" have often contained little more than injury reports and / or trade speculation, and almost nothing about the game itself. As I wrote in another thread a few days ago, someone who followed sports only through the Times would think that New York's premier sports team was Manchester United.
   15. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5714084)
No one serious pays attention to Trump's tweets.
   16. BDC Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5714090)
did the Times ever cover the Metro NYC area as a day-to-day news beat

I rarely read the Times during my NYC periods (1986-88 and 2002-08). But I remember them as having only the vaguest of notions that Queens or the Bronx even existed.
   17. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5714095)
So in a country of over 300 million people, wherein one of the more popular communications media limits the user to 140 characters, someone said something stupid.


lol, go back under your rock, it's been 280 for about a year now.

No one serious pays attention to Trump's tweets.


you're a dumbass luddite.
   18. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5714100)
No one serious pays attention to Trump's tweets.


Uh-huh. Or his interviews... or his press availabilities with foreign leaders... or his policies.

Serious people get their news from green-room whores with the sads over their social calendars or hypnotist cartoonists. Because they're serious people.
   19. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5714102)
lol, go back under your rock, it's been 280 for about a year now.
I read this and was wondering how we lost at least 20 million people. I must really be under a rock.
   20. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5714103)
So in a country of over 300 million people, wherein one of the more popular communications media limits the user to 140 characters, someone said something stupid.

lol, go back under your rock, it's been 280 for about a year now.


Judging from the rudimentary design of his MySpace page, Sub-Beta isn't the most tech-savy hipster around.
   21. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5714104)
If anyone serious paid attention, the markets would be in a massive sell-off today. But of course no one serious does.
   22. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5714105)
Judging from the rudimentary design of his MySpace page, Sub-Beta isn't the most tech-savy hipster around.


Hey - YOU try porting from geocities...
   23. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5714106)
Sorry to have missed Sunday's most excellent beatdown. But I never could have contributed anything as delightful as baravelli's Google find:

Iraqholster Ray:
”You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.”


Ouch. Homophobic AND Islamophobic (and massively, comically hypocritical) in two words. That is impressive work.

As we know, Iran takes an even harsher view on homosexuality than even the most virulent gay-bashers such as Stephen Colbert. Now that we've all learned what one Poli-Sci professor somewhere thinks about submissive Trump sex jokes, it'd be interesting to hear what some imams feel about Ray’s shocking hate speech. It was a mean spirited, insulting attack for which no mitigating, contextual, non-literal justification can possibly be offered.

And if we’re citing outside experts on gayness and humor, how about Jim Parsons (“The Big Bang Theory”), one of the most successful gay comedians working today? This is how he reacted to Colbert’s intolerable, illiberal “Putin’s cockholster” joke:
“I thought that was a very strange tag to put on the whole monologue. I thought, ‘That’s not homophobic.’ You taught me new terms! As a gay man, I didn’t know certain things. It was titillating, not homophobic.”





manchester, #1358:
In the UK in the 80s, it was common for the Thatcher-Reagan relationship to be satirised as a romantic relationship. So yeah, it's not only when it's two men.


Well-known caricaturist Gerald Scarfe depicts diplomacy between Thatcher and Reagan.
   24. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5714110)
If anyone serious paid attention, the markets would be in a massive sell-off today. But of course no one serious does.


Is there anything more sad than a Buckner & Garcia greatest hits tour?
   25. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:00 PM (#5714115)
which allows the Trumpkins to engage in the pure hackery of saying that there's nothing in there other than the dossier


*cough* JE *cough*
   26. BDC Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5714116)
if we’re citing outside experts on gayness and humor

Dan Savage on Trump's Helsinki flip-flopping:

Very Stable Genius: "Did I Say I Wouldn't Come In Your Mouth? Oh, sorry. Meant to say I would. My bad. Now go ahead and swallow that, sweetheart."

That's basically Trump's excuse for all the treasoning he did yesterday in Helsinki. … But Trump still couldn't quite pull his tongue all the way out of Putin's ass.


   27. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5714119)
Ray, #1378:
That's one of the tells here: not only are the jokes not funny, but they're not -- at least, the "jokes" on this board -- actually an attempt at humor. They're literally just attacks on perceived Trump supporters.
You can certainly have gay humor that isn't homophobic -- such as Seinfeld's "not that there's anything wrong with that." Done without malicious intent and not as a mean spirited attack. But this is not that.


Ray's been spouting this same moronically false "if it's mean, then it's not funny, or even a joke" thesis for well over a year now. Ray thinks his tender sensibilities and preferences deserve to be promoted to the status of empirical reality.

But he's so uncompromising about insulting jokes being nothing but "jokes," the question must be asked. Can "mean spirited attacks" and "malicious intent" in the guise of "jokes" EVER be considered legitimate comedy?

Oooh, such a difficult and thorny question. Who to believe?

Should we put our faith in Ray?

Or do we trust Don Rickles, the National Lampoon, the Marx Brothers, “Rick and Morty,” Friars Club roasts, South Park, the film “M*A*S*H,” Sacha Baron Cohen, “The Lady Eve,” Monty Python and “Fawlty Towers,” Charlie Chaplin, Howard Stern, “Seinfeld,” Looney Tunes cartoons, “Animal House,” The Onion, “Chappelle’s Show,” George Carlin, Sam Kinison, “Groundhog Day,” “The Office” (especially the BBC original), “TV Funhouse” and Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, “Veep,” MAD Magazine, "Dr. Strangelove," “SNL,” Mel Brooks, “Inside Amy Schumer,” prank phone calls, “Doonesbury,” “Heathers,” David Letterman, “Brass Eye” and Alan Partridge, W.C. Fields, Spy Magazine, “The Larry Sanders Show,” R. Crumb and Alan Moore and Simon Hanselmann and Joan Cornella and the Perry Bible Fellowship, “Mr. Show,” “Network,” Quentin Tarantino, “Louie,” “His Girl Friday,” “All About Eve,” “The King of Comedy,” “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,” “Curb Your Enthusiasm,” “Candid Camera,” and-- oh yes, by the way, only the last 200 years of American political cartooning? Not to mention hate merchant Stephen Colbert. And baseballthinkfactory’s OTP threads.

I'm going to have to think about this one.
   28. Spahn Insane Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5714120)
Judging from the rudimentary design of his MySpace page, Sub-Beta isn't the most tech-savy hipster around.

Well, if you'd quit being stubborn and use the recommended Netscape browser, his page might give you better results.
   29. spycake Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5714124)
Is there anything more sad than a Buckner & Garcia greatest hits tour?


How about just Buckner? "On November 17, 2011, Gary Garcia passed away unexpectedly at his home in Englewood, Florida." Wiki

Edit to add: I always liked "Do the Donkey Kong" and it reached 103 on Billboard!
   30. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5714126)
   31. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5714127)
How about just Buckner? "On November 17, 2011, Gary Garcia passed away unexpectedly at his home in Englewood, Florida." Wiki


Quiet, you... if you don't just hold your lighter aloft, he's never going to come out for the encore and do Whattabout SNL To Sir With Love!
   32. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5714130)
Yes, there was surely no greater foe of government guaranteed employment than FDR.

Clearly to get back to the party of FDR we need internment camps and Supreme Court packing.

Why the hell would a GOP person care or want the Democrats to be the party of FDR? I mean does this GOP Chair want the GOP to emulate the policy initiatives of FDR?
   33. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5714131)
Iraqholster Ray:
”You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.”

Ouch. Homophobic AND Islamophobic (and massively, comically hypocritical) in two words. That is impressive work.

What's even more impressive is that he'll keep talking about the left's "homophobia" without even the slightest acknowledgement of his own words. He's been doing this sort of thing for like, forever, and it's straight out of Trump's playbook.
   34. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5714132)
Last thread, 1449

How long 'til we bring back this oldie but goodie?


If Trump's tweet from very early this morning is to be believed, any minute now...
   35. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5714134)
Yes, there was surely no greater foe of government guaranteed employment than FDR.

Clearly to get back to the party of FDR we need internment camps and Supreme Court packing.

Why the hell would a GOP person care or want the Democrats to be the party of FDR? I mean does this GOP Chair want the GOP to emulate the policy initiatives of FDR?


Well, so far they've signed on to both of the policies you've listed above, so you never know.
   36. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5714137)
did the Times ever cover the Metro NYC area as a day-to-day news beat

Looking through the historic NYT database for stuff on Ruth and Williams I recall seeing local articles and headlines plus the NYT covered local sports in depths.
   37. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5714138)
Feels like you guys are jumping the gun criticizing the RNC chair's FDR tweet...

...until Alan Dershowtiz reports what impact it has on his social calendar, how can you know for sure what to think about it?
   38. Spahn Insane Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5714142)
What's even more impressive is that he'll keep talking about the left's "homophobia" without even the slightest acknowledgement of his own words.

And if called on it, it'll be "What the hell, I don't have time to answer every post just because you want me to." Convenient.

As noted, he wouldn't recognize homophobia if he saw it, and wouldn't care if he did (unless there were rhetorical points to be scored in so doing).
   39. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5714143)

did the Times ever cover the Metro NYC area as a day-to-day news beat
The 90s through, roughly, the mid-2000s was the heyday of newsprint. And the NYT had really expanded its local coverage along with all its other coverage, creating a whole lot of sections. They've retrenched in recent years, though, making the metro section a small adjunct to their news section.
   40. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5714144)
I realize reaming Ray a new one (see what I did there?) is fine sport, but I do think that "cockholster" and other submissive sex references (be they Trump/Putin or Thatcher/Reagan or Clinton/Everyone) are in poor taste and at best only marginally misogynistic (and yes, homophobic if done "wrong"). Sincerely Liberal gay men like Dan Savage and Jim Parsons are in a bit of a bind because they are 1000% Trump Foes.

So, in my genetically anointed capacity as Internet Psychiatrist there may be some rationalization there.

The Trump/Putin stuff isn't "as bad" as calling him a p*ussy or ##### (Hi Sam), but they are borderline. At least it got Ray to fully embrace his inner SJW!
   41. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5714145)
How often do you guys make a new thread, every week?
   42. Morty Causa Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5714146)
The internet is a clear net negative. Not entirely negative, of course, but on balance clearly negative. It's ruining of the newspaper business is one of the major negatives.

It's actually becoming a key component of The Decline.


Don't be a luddy-duddy! Don't be a mooncalf! Don't be a jabbernowl! You're not those, are you?
   43. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:32 PM (#5714147)
Clearly to get back to the party of FDR we need internment camps and Supreme Court packing.


This is classic "Modern Republicanism" BTW. They think that if FDR did it, and liberals hero worship FDR, that gives them a pass for the same thing 75 years later. Because they have been operating in "Cult of Personality" mode since 1980.
   44. dlf Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5714149)
How often do you guys make a new thread, every week?


Pretty much, yes. Jim asked that we do so because of the volume of posts and how that affects the site's underlying structure. Not sure why that doesn't apply to, for example, the NBA or Soccer threads, but ...
   45. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5714150)
15

No one serious pays attention to Trump's tweets.


AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Pass that over, man...
   46. Morty Causa Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5714157)
I realize reaming Ray a new one (see what I did there?) is fine sport, but I do think that "cockholster" and other submissive sex references (be they Trump/Putin or Thatcher/Reagan or Clinton/Everyone) are in poor taste and at best only marginally misogynistic (and yes, homophobic if done "wrong"). Sincerely Liberal gay men like Dan Savage and Jim Parsons are in a bit of a bind because they are 1000% Trump Foes.

Who was the cross-eyed silent comic actor who bewailed his lack of work because it was no longer considered funny to make fun of cross-eyed guys? Not only is Algonquin J. Calhoun intolerable, but so are Jewish/Italian/Latino and most other ethnic takes. Except Redneck caricaturing is still okay, I think. Hmmm. Even fat men slipping on banana peels gags are a no-no, and creepy dumb blonde jokes are on life support. Victimhood has progressed from Butterfly McQueen and Mammy to vacuous blond beauties. Now, that's social justice progress. (O, the injustice, O, the cleavage.)
   47. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5714158)
Re “cockholster-gate” I co-sign this CounterPunch article:

Homophobia in the Service of Anti-Trumpism is Still Homophobic

To insult a male by characterizing him as a “fag” or his behavior as “gay” is not necessarily the same as accusing him of literally being homosexual. Given. But that’s beside the point. To use a scale of “gayness” as your measure of negativity is definitively homophobic. The fundamental assumption there is that to be gay or to engage in a homosexual action is decidedly in the negative column.

It is worth noting that words or phrases specifically evocative of female acts of homosexuality are quite rarely used. Indeed, that’s because calling a man a “fag” is analagous to comparing him to a woman. The shade of difference is quite slight. Simply put, homophobia is an expression of misogyny. Patriarchy – which is institutionalized, enculturated, structural misogyny – demeans women for being women and, with the club of homophobia, demeans men who are too much like women. There is nothing about these attitudes to admire or defend.

But, ya know. My charitable read on it is the older libs here (and elsewhere) know this line of attack is homophobic and misogynist, but they will excuse anything so long as they believe it hurts Trump.
   48. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5714160)
Morty just showed us his "O" face.
   49. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5714161)
Very Stable Genius: "Did I Say I Wouldn't Come In Your Mouth? Oh, sorry. Meant to say I would. My bad. Now go ahead and swallow that, sweetheart."

That's basically Trump's excuse for all the treasoning he did yesterday in Helsinki. … But Trump still couldn't quite pull his tongue all the way out of Putin's ass.


Embarrassing on every level.

He must be so proud.
   50. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5714162)
Two random thoughts:

CNN's top headline at the moment is "Russia is choking Trump's presidency". Homophobic? An exercise left to the reader.

I have now seen The Accountant, and I have to say that RDP ranking that movie in his upper pantheon lends... insight. On what, I haven't quite figured out.

   51. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5714163)
Ray's been spouting this same moronically false "if it's mean, then it's not funny, or even a joke" thesis


That doesn't seem to be his thesis in the least.

It's certainly not mine; mean things can be very funny.

Mine is that it (1) is homophobic; and (2) isn't funny.
   52. Morty Causa Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5714165)
My charitable read on it is the older libs here (and elsewhere) know this line of attack is homophobic and misogynist, but they will excuse anything so long as they believe it hurts Trump.

Well, it could be that it conveys meaning that is otherwise inexpressible. Remember, censorship, no matter how justified, always has at least that effect. And there are always some comfortable with that, but, of course, uncomfortable with other forms of suppression of expression.

Do we really need a strict scrutiny test here? And if we do, remember, as with racial discrimination, that doesn't make it absolutely and always impermissible. Or does it?

EDITed to add a parenthetical comment.
   53. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5714166)
To insult a male by characterizing him as a “fag” or his behavior as “gay” is not necessarily the same as accusing him of literally being homosexual.


And it never was, making GB's "not literal, metaphorical" distinction all the more inapposite and bizarre.
   54. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5714168)
The real problem is OTP is homo-genized.
   55. Morty Causa Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5714169)
"Russia is choking Trump's presidency". Homophobic?

No, it would have to be more along the lines of "Russia is choking Trump's chicken presidency."
   56. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5714171)
Sincerely Liberal gay men like Dan Savage and Jim Parsons are in a bit of a bind because they are 1000% Trump Foes.


Not just Trump foes, but instead "in the throes of Trump Derangement Syndrome."
   57. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5714172)
Bear...man, you are the best!

Crackin' me up today!

So everybody's got TDS except you, Ray, Clapper and the FOX folks. Got it.
   58. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5714174)
any minute now...


Really an astonishing document, and although a good bit before my time, the whole civil defense apparatus scared the bejesus out of me as a kid, particularly the test of the EBS. Everytime I'd see a fallout shelter sign, I'd get the sweats.

Maybe the warning signs regarding the power saw in my grandfather's shop class were worse.
   59. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5714176)
I, for one, as a more advanced SJW must say that I am offended by the degree to which the two SJW novices feel it is appropriate to so blithely use mental health as a cheap, boring, and crude cudgel to attack people.

But, as I said last thread... this is a common occurrence when one is new to the movement. Early on, it feels liberating and powerful. Eventually, you learn that being an SJW actually requires a continuing cycle of self-reflection and personal improvement.

But they're learning, so I hold out hope.
   60. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5714177)
Anybody else notice how the whole Iran threat came out of nowhere?

Oh, except that:

-- it comes on the heels of Trump's terrible, awful, not-very-nice week

-- it comes the week of the start of Manafort's trial.

Other than that, yeah...pretty inexplicable.
   61. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5714179)
58

Really an astonishing document, and although a good bit before my time, the whole civil defense apparatus scared the bejesus out of me as a kid, particularly the test of the EBS. Everytime I'd see a fallout shelter sign, I'd get the sweats.


I was the same way and I only caught the tail end of it (I'm 53).

Here's another one: my Dad was the CO of his National Guard unit in NYC. One day in 1969, they had a parade down 5th Avenue in full uniform. I sat in the bleachers with my mom and cried hysterically though the whole thing -- I was 4 years old. I was convinced my Dad was gonna end up the way I saw the soldiers on TV -- bleeding on stretchers.
   62. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5714180)
So no comment at all on Trump's highest job approval rating yet, or the fact that 88 percent of the GOP is down with the Prez after Helsinki?

If that doesn't give you sweats, maybe the fact the majority of GOP voters would approve if Trump suspended the 2020 election will.

Or just keep whistling past the graveyard
   63. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5714181)
the majority of GOP voters would approve if Trump suspended the 2020 election will.


Some** think he won't even do that. Some** think he'll lose in 2020, call it rigged and simply refuse to leave. Or win in 2020 and refuse to leave in 2025.

**Full disclosure: the "Some" in question are Bill Maher and Michael Moore, so it is an exercise best left yaddayaddayadda.


   64. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5714183)
So no comment at all on Trump's highest job approval rating yet, or the fact that 88 percent of the GOP is down with the Prez after Helsinki?


Usually, if one wishes to cherrypick a single poll to make a point - you specify the poll you've cherrypicked and link to it.

Otherwise, vague assertions about a single poll sans link cause most people to just do a quick check of either 538's aggregate or RCP's aggregate.

Neither of which show anything particularly worth commenting on.
   65. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5714184)
I sat in the bleachers with my mom and cried hysterically though the whole thing


Prepared you for a lifetime of Mets fandom.

I was born winter of '66, so I'm right behind ya on the timeline. Had to be some psychic effect when some of your first memories were Vietnam coverage on tv. Not to mention Tricky Dick.
   66. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5714185)
I sat in the bleachers with my mom and cried hysterically though the whole thing


Prepared you for a lifetime of Mets fandom.

I was born winter of '66, so I'm right behind ya on the timeline. Had to be some psychic effect when some of your first memories were Vietnam coverage on tv. Not to mention Tricky Dick.


I'll always have '86...

And yeah. From Viet Nam coverage right into having The Electric Company and ZOOM! pre-empted by Watergate hearings.
   67. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5714188)
Michael Moore


Yeah, why would anybody listen to that loon...
   68. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5714190)
Yeah, why would anybody listen to that loon...

Oh, I didn't say I wasn't, but that neither of these guys are everybody's cup o' tea.
   69. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5714191)
Usually, if one wishes to cherrypick a single poll to make a point - you specify the poll you've cherrypicked and link to it.

Otherwise, vague assertions about a single poll sans link cause most people to just do a quick check of either 538's aggregate or RCP's aggregate.

Neither of which show anything particularly worth commenting on.


I know it is a tired trope to say that we got Trump because we were mean to him but it is generally true than when one side of the political spectrum attacks the established leader of the other side that side tends to rally behind that leader regardless of how stupid doing that is.

It would be absolutely stupid to think that 40% of the population want us to be close allies with Russia, that Russia has good intentions for us, and that are allies are lazy meanies that are our true enemies. But since Trump is saying that and being attacked for it people feel the need to defend him. Before June of 2015 the amount of people in the GOP that wanted what Trump wanted in terms of foreign policy was probably well below 10% of the party. Now suddenly all these people have seen the light? No.
   70. perros Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5714192)
Funny, the last straw of that piece:


Coming back to the hotel after appearing on Bill Maher’s Republican Convention special this week on HBO, a man stopped me. “Mike,” he said, “we have to vote for Trump. We HAVE to shake things up.” That was it. That was enough for him. To “shake things up.” President Trump would indeed do just that, and a good chunk of the electorate would like to sit in the bleachers and watch that reality show.

While we cry hysterically through the whole thing.
   71. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5714194)
zenbitz, #40:
I realize reaming Ray a new one (see what I did there?) is fine sport, but I do think that "cockholster" and other submissive sex references (be they Trump/Putin or Thatcher/Reagan or Clinton/Everyone) are in poor taste and at best only marginally misogynistic (and yes, homophobic if done "wrong"). Sincerely Liberal gay men like Dan Savage and Jim Parsons are in a bit of a bind because they are 1000% Trump Foes.


It's somewhat less of a bind when you consider that poor taste, and marginal mysogyny, and homophobia (if done wrong) are not in of themselves disqualifying reasons to attempt a joke.

I'm not a fan of Colbert's cockholster joke because (a) it's not funny, and (b) because it was part of a larger segment about speed-"roasting" Donald Trump that wasn't successful, and was just one of a string of insult words in which the volume and velocity was intended to make up for the lack of cleverness.

The fact that the line used servile sex as political metaphor is just fine. The fact that the joke upset some people who still wail about it more than a year later retroactively validates it (though it still doesn't make it funny).

I've cited this comparison before. Three months before the dawn of cockholster, Colbert told a similar but overwhelmingly superior joke. It was after Donald Trump was doing one of his rallies, and he randomly started decrying imaginary terror attacks in Sweden, saying "Sweden, who would believe this?" In response, former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt had tweeted about Trump, “Sweden? Terror attack? What has he been smoking?” Colbert read Bildt's tweet and then replied, “What has he been smoking? Uh… Vladimir Putin’s dick?” Now that's a quality "servicing Putin" joke, with a 90-degree lurch to the surprise punchline. I'll defend the right of either joke to exist, but the one with comedic merit is the winner.

Anyway, when do we get back to Donald Trump being a traitor? And in related news...


Met Fan Charlie, #60:
Anybody else notice how the whole Iran threat came out of nowhere?

Oh, except that:
-- it comes on the heels of Trump's terrible, awful, not-very-nice week
-- it comes the week of the start of Manafort's trial.

Other than that, yeah...pretty inexplicable.

A reasonable theory. I think Trump may have successfully sneaked his motivation by, though.


Sky News:
Look the other way: Donald Trump's Iran rant a distraction from controversial Putin summit
The Guardian:
Trump’s escalation does not appear premeditated or thought through. He faced intense bipartisan criticism after last week’s inept summit with Russia’s leader, Vladimir Putin. He is under relentless pressure from the official inquiry into alleged 2016 campaign collusion with Russia. Trump may have been looking for an easy target on which to vent his pent-up frustration. ........Intentionally or not, Trump has distracted attention from his domestic troubles, at least for now.
Wall Street Journal:
White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders dismissed suggestions that with his tweet, the president was inciting conflict with Iran in order to distract from his domestic political troubles including negative reaction to his rapport with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Alisyn Camerota, CNN:
So often, we're left to figure out why the president is tweeting what he's tweeting at the time. And as you know, after the head-slapping Helsinki moment that saw his approval ratings in terms of how he's dealing with Russia drop, you have to ask the question "Did this have to happen last night? Is this a distraction of some kind?" [followed by Trump "planting the seed" and reading his 2013 anti-Obama tweets]
MSNBC:
As Trump threatens war with Iran, few know whether to take it seriously

It’s an awkward feeling. On the one hand, the Commander in Chief of the world’s strongest military is publicly raising the prospect of a deadly conflict, and it seems irresponsible to just shrug that off as background noise. On the other hand, most observers realize that Trump is an erratic amateur with the temperament of an elementary-school bully, who finds joy in chest-thumping bluster, and whose occasional tantrums frequently amount to very little.

The former suggests last night’s presidential tweets were important. The latter suggests we should roll our eyes and focus our attention elsewhere.

The uncertainty is itself an issue the nation needs to come to terms with. When a sitting American president threatens a war, and no one’s sure whether to take it seriously, there’s a problem.

Who knows, maybe Trump is actually preparing for a conflict. Or maybe he saw some forgettable segment on Fox News that got him all worked up again, but it won’t last. Or maybe the president hopes to distract everyone from his long list of unrelated problems. (Paul Manafort, who led Trump’s political operation, will be in a federal courtroom this week for the start of his multi-count criminal trial.)

We can say with some certainty that Trump sees Iran threats as a convenient domestic political tool – because he’s already told us so. He tweeted in 2013, “Remember what I previously said – Obama will someday attack Iran in order to show how tough he is.”
   72. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5714200)
Coming back to the hotel after appearing on Bill Maher’s Republican Convention special this week on HBO, a man stopped me. “Mike,” he said, “we have to vote for Trump. We HAVE to shake things up.” That was it. That was enough for him. To “shake things up.” President Trump would indeed do just that, and a good chunk of the electorate would like to sit in the bleachers and watch that reality show.

But we as voters (regardless of party) do this pretty much every 2 years. It's why it is extremely hard to have 3 terms for the same party. We will eternally be ever unhappy with our government. If you aren't personally driving a Ferrari and live in a mansion you'll think the government should do more for you and if you do get to that point you'll think the government is taking too much from you.
   73. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5714203)
Coming back to the hotel after appearing on Bill Maher’s Republican Convention special this week on HBO, a man stopped me. “Mike,” he said, “we have to vote for Trump. We HAVE to shake things up.” That was it. That was enough for him. To “shake things up.” President Trump would indeed do just that, and a good chunk of the electorate would like to sit in the bleachers and watch that reality show.

That reminds me of a slowfooted and dimwitted American Legion teammate who tried to steal second in the last of the 9th when we were 4 or 5 runs behind.

After he was thrown out with 10 feet to spare, he said he was "just trying to shake up the pitcher".
   74. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5714210)
From CNN:


One week on from the Putin summit, no one can stop talking about it. And Trump's defiance and failure to publicly rebuke the Russian leader in Finland over election interference is spurring unusual criticism from Republicans.

"The evidence is overwhelming," South Carolina Rep. Trey Gowdy said on "Fox News Sunday."

"It can be proven beyond any evidentiary burden that Russia is not our friend and they tried to attack us in 2016," Gowdy said. "So the President either needs to rely on the people that he has chosen to advise him, or those advisers need to reevaluate whether or not they can serve in this administration. But the disconnect cannot continue. The evidence is overwhelming, and the President needs to say that and act like it."


Yup, nothing to see here ... move along!
   75. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5714211)
It's somewhat less of a bind when you consider that poor taste, and marginal mysogyny, and homophobia (if done wrong) are not in of themselves disqualifying reasons to attempt a joke.

....

The fact that the line used servile sex as political metaphor is just fine. ...


In theory perhaps. In practice I dislike using any sexual metaphor as commentary on non-sexual power dynamics (political or not). It tends to be unfunny, distasteful, and obscure rather than illuminate.

That is my personal preferences talking though.
   76. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5714212)
NY Daily News reducing its sports staff from 35 to 9 - so subscribe now!

Legendary Knicks writer Frank Isola among those to get axed
   77. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5714213)
I know it is a tired trope to say that we got Trump because we were mean to him but it is generally true than when one side of the political spectrum attacks the established leader of the other side that side tends to rally behind that leader regardless of how stupid doing that is.

It would be absolutely stupid to think that 40% of the population want us to be close allies with Russia, that Russia has good intentions for us, and that are allies are lazy meanies that are our true enemies. But since Trump is saying that and being attacked for it people feel the need to defend him. Before June of 2015 the amount of people in the GOP that wanted what Trump wanted in terms of foreign policy was probably well below 10% of the party. Now suddenly all these people have seen the light? No.


Interestingly enough -

GOP Criticism Of Trump Is All Talk — But It Still Matters

Weakening the impact of Trump’s rhetoric

Political scientists have done a great deal of research to figure out how much the president’s words matter — if they matter at all. Here’s what’s generally agreed upon: Presidential communication matters in a number of important ways. It can shape what issues citizens think about in the first place, how the public views the particular meaning or context of a major event, and provide important cues to partisans about where the party stands on a given issue.

Trump is facing a different dynamic than other presidents, though: He’s regularly contradicted by members of his own party on Capitol Hill. Take the president’s downplaying of Russian interference in the 2016 election. It will be harder for Trump to convince even most Republicans of these arguments as long as senators from his own party, like South Carolina’s Lindsey Graham, keep saying there was interference. Indeed, a (small) majority of Republicans believe the U.S. intelligence agencies’ finding that Russia interfered.

* * *

On paper, Trump, particularly on foreign policy, can still largely ignore Congress and implement his agenda if he chooses. But in reality, he keeps backtracking. Take his interest in implementing a more pro-Russia foreign policy. We think the criticism from congressional Republicans is a big part of that hesitancy on Trump’s part. The verbal opposition from fellow Republicans tends to lead to an escalation of opposition against Trump. Criticism by fellow Republicans frees the press, always leery of appearing too liberal, to attack controversial Trump initiatives more directly. That bipartisan and media opposition helps move the public in these instances to oppose what Trump is doing. Facing such opposition, the president often retreats.


I think the whole thing is well worth reading - and I agree, with some additions.

First, as always, people still have this tendency to analyze reaction/approval/popularity of Trump without remembering (as in, they truly seem to forget) that half the country or more hates him. Now... out of that 63 million or 44% of the country that either loves him, just hated Hillary that much, decided "well, let's see what happens", or just voted laundry - has he lost any of it? More than likely, he has... for the simple reason that some of those "vote and pray" have now seen that no, he's never going to "become Presidential"... not to mention, Hillary is no longer a factor. Who knows what the numbers are - but for a guy who was already well under water, even shedding a point or two of support is a big problem.

Conversely, has he converted any skeptics or opposition? Hard to see where that's the case. The numbers bear it out. We've had numerous elections since November 2016 - they bear it out.

In short - chasing Trump voters is pretty stupid... at least, I think it's a waste of time. Better to let the natural erosion of support do its work, wait for the approaching economic downturn - inevitable without Trump's stupidity, now only hastened if not exacerbated by it - peel off a few more, and pre-Trump conservatives/Republicans continue to get to that "not my party anymore" point.

Roughly half the country voted in 2016. Generally, one-third votes in midterms.

It is truly unfortunate that in a country of some 300-330 million - there were a bit shy of 63 million who thought this buffoon was worth the risk. It's even sadder that there are probably at least 40 million - maybe as many as 50 million - who will follow him down whatever spiral he leads them.

Nothing can be done about them, though... Best to keep the 66 million charged up in their opposition, welcome a few million more scraps who make their own decision to abandon the orange circus where and under whatever conditions they see fit to exit, and focus on convincing some of the 100 million+ who didn't bother that Trump and his base constitute a clear and present danger and that taking the time to vote and activate is a necessity.

   78. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5714216)
re 77. The thing of it is is that come 2020 those Trump voters will likely be re-energized. There will always be the other side bogeyman. Someone is always going to be the horrible villain that will ruin the country if not stopped. So the real issue isn't Trump but who gets nominated for the Dems. If it can be some charismatic Obama type nominee that can build a big tent and inspire voters he's sunk. If it is Clinton part II or someone divisive then we're back to largely focusing on a couple hundred thousand voters here or there.
   79. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5714217)
And related to #77:
NY Times:
The president’s conduct and the fight for control of Congress have overshadowed the 36 governor’s races this year. But the state elections could prove even more consequential in reshaping policy and altering the long-term balance of power both in Washington and state capitals.

Just as Republicans pulled a host of moderate states significantly to the right after their success eight years ago, victorious Democrats could enact sweeping changes on labor, health care and energy to tug a number of centrist states to the left and expand their policy ambitions in liberal states — fulfilling the growing expectations of their progressive base.

Democrats would also be in position to protect their members of Congress when the House map is redrawn after the 2020 census. With 56 Democratic challengers outraising Republican incumbents in the last fund-raising period, senior leaders in both parties believe Democrats are likely to gain the 23 seats they need to take the chamber. Because state governments control redistricting, new Democratic governors could help cement the House gains, or at least block Republicans from repeating the post-2010 gerrymandering that helped entrench their power in Congress.

The November election could have “decadal significance” because of redistricting, said Gov. Jay Inslee of Washington, the chairman of the Democratic Governors Association.

…………….Should 2018 yield a large new class of Democratic governors, Mr. Inslee said, they would move quickly next year to shape policies that would put blue-tinged states even more sharply at odds with a Trump-led federal government. “We’re seeing a clean-energy jobs message can be very effective, virtually, in every state,” Mr. Inslee said. He also cited gun-control and voting-rights laws as other areas where Democrats would take action. Across the country, he added, “You cannot overstate the anger, the concern and the desire to vote.”

…………..Even if Democrats win governorships in places like Ohio and Florida, they are all but certain to face divided governments and formidable Republican opposition. ………..But if Republicans are likely to hold on to some measure of power in many states, there was no mistaking the deflated demeanor of a number of governors in Santa Fe.

………….“This is the only time in my lifetime when I’ve ever been aware of so many Republicans, moderate Republicans, who are throwing up their hands and in some cases writing checks to support Democratic candidates,” said [Colorado Governor John] Hickenlooper, whose state is an example of one that has moved gradually to the left. “I’ve just never seen this level of dissatisfaction.”
   80. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5714218)
And...

Politico:
‘A difficult situation’: Republican women run in the Trump era
If this is the ‘year of the woman,’ GOP women on the ballot aren’t feeling it.


For the past 20 months, four-term Republican Rep. Martha Roby has had to grovel to President Donald Trump to regain her political standing and beat back a primary challenge in her staunchly conservative Alabama district.

Her crime? Standing up for women.

“I cannot look my children in the eye … and justify a vote for a man who promotes and boasts about sexually assaulting women,” the mother of two said in the fall of 2016. Needless to say, her constituents — many of them Trump-loving Southern men — didn’t like that much. Roby quickly changed her tune after Trump won the presidency, unfailingly praising him and his policies as she went on to survive a primary runoff Tuesday that almost ended her career.

Roby’s plight highlights the unique challenge Republican women face campaigning for office with Trump in the White House. While their female Democratic counterparts have benefited politically from going against the president on women’s issues, GOP women don’t have the same luxury.

..................Retiring Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, who called Republican women an “endangered species,” was blunter: “The base is with Donald Trump, and he can do no wrong. … He’s going to be hanging on you like an albatross around your neck. Ugh! It is a real knot for female candidates."

Interviews with more than a half-dozen female GOP lawmakers and candidates revealed what Ros-Lehtinen called the "difficult situation" many of them face: Like male GOP lawmakers who go against Trump, Republican women who blast the president risk alienating a base they need for reelection, as Roby did. Failing to speak up, however, risks turning off independent-minded women who are skeptical of the president, a key voting bloc. ................Some Republican women say they've struggled to ride the wave of empowerment that their Democratic counterparts have.

.....................But it’s not just Democrats, or Trump, who make it challenging for Republican woman. While Democrats tend to favor female candidates over men, all things being equal, some Republican women say their gender is held against them by a sliver of voters in their party. ..............Rep. Kristi Noem, who’s running for governor of South Dakota, a state she referred to as “a good ol’ boys club” [said,] “For some reason, they were willing to vote to send a woman to Congress for years, but to put a woman in the governor’s office, it’s very different. I didn’t anticipate that being an issue. And we think, in our primary, we lost several points because of that.”

................Currently, about 10 percent of the GOP Conference is female, while almost a third of the Democratic Caucus is made up of women. Ros-Lehtinen said Republicans have got some work to do to boost those numbers.
“Things have changed, but for Republican women, sadly the number has more or less stayed at a dismally low level,” she said.
   81. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5714220)
Legendary Knicks writer Frank Isola among those to get axed


Damn, from what I can tell he was the only guy left in the NYC scene that had any real sources on the Knicks.
   82. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5714225)
re 77. The thing of it is is that come 2020 those Trump voters will likely be re-energized. There will always be the other side bogeyman. Someone is always going to be the horrible villain that will ruin the country if not stopped. So the real issue isn't Trump but who gets nominated for the Dems. If it can be some charismatic Obama type nominee that can build a big tent and inspire voters he's sunk. If it is Clinton part II or someone divisive then we're back to largely focusing on a couple hundred thousand voters here or there.


Nobody is more divisive than Clinton. It is simply not possible for any Democrat to run in 2020 with more polarizing numbers than Clinton for the simple reason that no human being exists on the planet - at least, eligible to run for US President - who had a sustained 25 year onslaught of opposition, memes, histrionics, and rumor. The Clinton II does not exist.

Beyond that though, what you say just emphasizes my point. So Trump keeps all 63 million. I doubt he does, but whatever. Absent a viable 3rd candidate - 46% usually loses. I don't care what the EC map looks like - in a nominally two-person race, it loses, 99 times out of 100.

Regardless, though - I loathe even talking about 2020.

There's still a 2018. And 2019-2020 looks a LOT different with even just one chamber of Congress actually functioning as a co-equal branch and exercising its oversight authority rather than playing vanguard.

I am entirely confidant that 2017-2018 will mark the high water mark of Trump's popularity.
   83. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5714229)
New NBC/WSJ poll:
Just 36% of independents approve of Trump’s job (down 7 points from June). Independents prefer a Democratic-controlled Congress by more than 20 points, 48% to 26% (in June, the Dem lead among indies was just 7 points).
   84. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5714233)
The Clinton II does not exist.

Until the GOP decides to make one. Sequels are never as good as the original but they also don't need to be to get the same reach or greater.
   85. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5714236)
2019-2020 looks a LOT different with even just one chamber of Congress actually functioning as a co-equal branch and exercising its oversight authority rather than playing vanguard.

I am entirely confidant that 2017-2018 will mark the high water mark of Trump's popularity.
Yeah, well, how many people were entirely confident that 2015 was Trump's high water mark?

I dunno. If the GOP loses a chamber, that just gives the Trump marketing machine more grist for the "Dems are stalling" mill. Say what you will about the man, he knows how to manipulate a significant portion of the electorate. I agree that hating HRC was a huge component in 2016 that's unlikely to be repeated, I would just hate for - frankly, ANYONE - to become complacent about a Trump fadeout.
   86. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5714237)
New NBC/WSJ poll:


Just 36% of independents approve of Trump’s job (down 7 points from June). Independents prefer a Democratic-controlled Congress by more than 20 points, 48% to 26% (in June, the Dem lead among indies was just 7 points).


Hilariously, I don't think it's "new"... In fact, I'm pretty sure this is actually the very poll Perros was touting at the tail end of last OTP thread and re-touted above (i.e., I see it's the one showing 88% GOP approval, and if you click through a few of the teaser stories - you also find it appears to be the source of the 'Helsinki was awesome!').

As such polls often do - hey, they're not free - it would appear that NBC/WSJ basically teased out some toplines yesterday... but now we get the meat.

And the meat says -

#1 This poll was in the field starting July 15 (the day before the Helsinki presser) through July 18. Which means - half the respondents were reacting to Helsinki before, well... Hell sunk.

#2 - 46% strongly disapprove of Trump.... the strong numbers - especially in advance of a midterm - matter more than anything else.
   87. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5714245)
Rep. Trey Gowdy has a theory: "I have not seen one scintilla of evidence that this president colluded, conspired, collaborated, with Russia. And neither has anyone else, or you can rest assured, Adam Schiff would have leaked it."

Gowdy also says that "Carter Page is more like Inspector Gadget then he is Jason Bourne or James Bond." And he wants the public to understand that because treason is a capital crime, John Brennan might be willing to see Donald Trump hanged by the neck until dead.

Trey Gowdy is the chairman of the House Oversight Committee.
   88. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5714248)
Yeah, well, how many people were entirely confident that 2015 was Trump's high water mark?


It's quite easy for people to construct fantasies where he grows up, becomes Presidential, or otherwise solves every ill because by golly - he's different than a politician.

He's no longer some theoretical where people can foist their best hopes and dreams onto him.

I dunno. If the GOP loses a chamber, that just gives the Trump marketing machine more grist for the "Dems are stalling" mill. Say what you will about the man, he knows how to manipulate a significant portion of the electorate. I agree that hating HRC was a huge component in 2016 that's unlikely to be repeated, I would just hate for - frankly, ANYONE - to become complacent about a Trump fadeout.


So let him.

I'm tired of pretending that Democrats alone exist in this hole where Trump/Republicans are hugely popular and the only way for Democrats to win is to lure some Republicans on board.

For 2018 - given historical midterm turnout and what tends to matter most - I want people who already hate Trump REALLY hating him and crawling over broken glass to vote for people from NOT his party... everywhere.

Beyond that? He doesn't know how to manipulate people any better than Fox News and company have been for decades. The only difference is that now, the two have merged into one in the same.

I'm tired of chasing the whatever proportion of the GOP base that would literally vote for Satan or Hitler or Stalin or whatever so long as that candidate said uncouth and unkind things about liberals. It's a complete exercise in futility.

Anyone still supporting Trump is not worth the time or effort.... or to the extent they are, just fish for them with the same stupid promises bait (it's so easy! I alone can fix it! whatever) Trump used.

This is not a call for complacency... it's a call to stop pretending there's any kind of rhetoric or tactic or whatever to get people who think someone like Trump works to consider an alternative.

Hating on him seems to be working quite well, per both the polls and dozens upon dozens of elections since 2016. Keep doing what works.
   89. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5714249)

First, as always, people still have this tendency to analyze reaction/approval/popularity of Trump without remembering (as in, they truly seem to forget) that half the country or more hates him.
Nate pointed out the other day that it's simply poor analysis for people to keep picking apart the polls and talking about how Republicans feel about Trump, rather than how the country feels about him.

(As I keep pointing out, that's because "Republicans" is a self-selected group. People who don't support him are less likely to call themselves Republicans, even if they formerly did.)
   90. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5714251)
Rep. Trey Gowdy has a theory: "I have not seen one scintilla of evidence that this president colluded, conspired, collaborated, with Russia. And neither has anyone else, or you can rest assured, Adam Schiff would have leaked it."

Gowdy also says that "Carter Page is more like Inspector Gadget then he is Jason Bourne or James Bond." And he wants the public to understand that because treason is a capital crime, John Brennan might be willing to see Donald Trump hanged by the neck until dead.

Trey Gowdy is the chairman of the House Oversight Committee.


2-3 years ago Gowdy was a rising GOP star (thanks Hillary) with probable ambitions for a senate challenge or gubernatorial, and an eventual run for POTUS. Now he's "retiring" from politics to get back into law and family full time.

Doesn't really make much sense imo. I think he's either seen the writing on the wall for the GOP in the era of Trump and wants no part of it, or he himself is wrapped up in this Russian business.
   91. DavidFoss Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5714252)
Gowdy also says that "Carter Page is more like Inspector Gadget then he is Jason Bourne or James Bond."

This is moving the goalposts. Nobody thinks Carter Page is Jason Bourne or James Bond. He acts like a complete moron whenever he is interviewed on TV. Russians themselves have been caught on tape referring to him as a 'useful idiot' or some sort of empty vessel.
   92. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5714255)
But, as I said last thread... this is a common occurrence when one is new to the movement.


Nice try -- only problem is that I'm not remotely "new to the movement" and am probably more of a social liberal than anyone on the board. Certainly right up there.

Don't confuse modern liberalism with actual liberalism. Common flaw.
   93. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5714259)

The Clinton II does not exist.
Wait until Chelsea runs!
   94. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5714261)
Even fat men slipping on banana peels gags are a no-no


Apropos of nothing, about 20 years ago, walking down 9th Avenue mid town manhattan, I *literally* slipped on a banana peel. It *was* hilarious, but since I am not fat, I didn't actually fall (but it was a near run thing)
   95. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5714266)
The Clinton II does not exist.

Wait until Chelsea runs!


Fair enough.

She may well be the most compassionate genius on the face of the earth, but yes... whatever her talents, I oppose her entry into the political realm.
   96. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5714268)
the whole civil defense apparatus scared the bejesus out of me as a kid, particularly the test of the EBS.


Me too. I guess to get over it I became obsessed with post-apocalypse fiction. I guess these days, kids are afraid of zombies. Or Trump. Or Trumpista Zombies.
   97. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5714270)
76

Legendary Knicks writer Frank Isola among those to get axed


And yet Mike Lupica -- like a cockroach; like Keith Richards; like Kirk Douglas -- survives.
   98. . Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5714271)
Damn, from what I can tell he was the only guy left in the NYC scene that had any real sources on the Knicks.


Nah, he'd been frozen out by the Garden and wound up pretty much just making #### up. The Garden's mouthpiece is Marc Berman, the Post's Knick beat guy.

I mean, I like Isola and it sucks that the Daily News is falling apart, but he didn't have much more on the Knicks than "See, I told you Isiah would rise again!" He is pretty well tapped in to some guys, like Kyrie and to a degree LeBron.
   99. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5714272)
That reminds me of a slowfooted and dimwitted American Legion teammate who tried to steal second in the last of the 9th when we were 4 or 5 runs behind.


Didn't Babe Ruth do this? In the 7th game of the WS no less?
   100. DavidFoss Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5714276)

Didn't Babe Ruth do this? In the 7th game of the WS no less?


https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA192610100.shtml

Down 1 run, too. Bob Meusel was at the plate. Lou Gehrig was on deck. Hornsby made the tag. It was Hornsby's only WS championship. Pete Alexander was on the mound. His only ring, too.

Back to politics: when Ronald Reagan played Alexander in the movie, they changed the ending of the game to not be Ruth's WS, but Lazzeri's 7th inning strikeout with the bases loaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Winning_Team
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