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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   1001. DavidFoss Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5716869)
Court documents say that Paul Manafort spent $18k on karaoke equipment.

It's going to be a strange trial.
   1002. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5716871)
For the claim that a President^ being caught in a lie about brokering a meeting with a hostile foreign power during the campaign is a Huge Deal? Pass.


Concession accepted.
   1003. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5716874)
Court documents say that Paul Manafort spent $18k on karaoke equipment.


rich people are stupid.
   1004. Tom T Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5716875)
I've lived at my current address for over 30 years. Checking other places I've lived in my lifetime:

Bartlesville, OK: 74-21 Trump (with near-neighbor precincts at 68-27 and 69-24 Trump)
Houston: 87-7 Clinton
Chicago: 91-3 Clinton (or maybe 90-4; I lived in several places there)
Madison, WI: 78-12 Clinton
Austin: 84-9 Clinton

If you make the rounds of higher education, ...


Heh...

The local U (the "hotbed of student rest") only broke 64-24 for Clinton. Highest pro-Clinton vote (74-18) in the surrounding area is on the non-University side of the river, in the old union-heavy area of town. The overall county was 49-43 Trump with my precinct being 54-37 Trump.
   1005. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5716877)
Court documents say that Paul Manafort spent $18k on karaoke equipment.


Rich people are stupid, but this might also be an example of potential money laundering.

Remember how there were all those stories about a 100K rug that he bought? Allegedly a lot of those kinds of purchases are fronts for money laundering.

I have no real idea, but it might be why it's being introduced in court.

(although really, Occam's razor is just that Manafort is a ####### moron)
   1006. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5716878)
3) Trump wasn't under *oath* when he repeatedly denied foreknowledge.


No, but Jr. was when he testified to Congress that Sr. had no knowledge. If Sr. helped prepare Jr's testimony, and that testimony can be proven to be false...
   1007. DavidFoss Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5716879)
(although really, Occam's razor is just that Manafort is a ####### moron)

I want to hear him sing!
   1008. Lassus Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5716880)
Giving the benefit of the doubt, that kind of purchase is also made by rich people if they have a son, daughter, niece, etc. who has a scintilla of vocal talent and is trying to practice or try out for CLARKE COUNTY'S GOT TALENT or whatever.
   1009. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5716885)
Court documents say that Paul Manafort spent $18k on karaoke equipment.

I have heard that stoolies singing before, but this is ridiculous.
   1010. dlf Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5716886)
My address is in a district that went almost 65% for DJT; less than 2/10th(*) of a mile and I cross a county line to a district almost 55% for HRC. Looking at other places I lived post grad school I was pretty surprised to see that pretty much all of Montgomery AL went HRC and most of it overwhelmingly so. That makes me wonder why Bobby Bright decided to change parties and attack incumbent Congresswoman Martha Roby from her right rather than run again as a D and go from her left.

(*) My usual jogging route so I know distances coming home down to the inch. Of course proving fat 50 year olds shouldn't run, yesterday the doctor put me in a walking boot for a broken foot.
   1011. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5716889)
Concession accepted.
I'm not arguing that the meeting was a Huge Deal. Being caught in a stupid lie (again) that, as per #1006, is edging towards legally fishy^ territory, is getting interesting. I doubt you realize that... anyway, you should be aware that when you type "concession accepted", it reads as "I, SBB, now recognize that [PepTech, in this case; substitute Mouse or Zonk or, really, Spongebob Squarepants] is my intellectual superior and I, SBB, lack the capacity to properly discuss even the simplest topics with them."

^ You can look it up if you don't know what it means.
   1012. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5716890)
it reads as "I, SBB, now recognize that [PepTech, in this case; substitute Mouse or Zonk or, really, Spongebob Squarepants] is my intellectual superior and I, SBB, lack the capacity to properly discuss even the simplest topics with them."


I wouldn't be surprised if it reads that way, but keep in mind that you just argued that something Trump did was a Huge Deal because if somebody else did it, it would be a Huge Deal.

That isn't an argument particularly oozing with intellectual rigor and one doesn't even need to possess a law degree to see why. But if the pitchman now swoops in with a well-placed "liar" or "troll," perhaps he will lift your spirits.
   1013. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5716891)
Sure. But I'm not a "real lawyer." I'm a real lawyer. (People can look me up and everything.)


I was really hoping there would be a BBTF blurb when I saw "fluent in matters pertaining to the internet." :/
   1014. Hot Wheeling American Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5716893)
Where I live: 91% HRC, 7% DJT

Where I grew up and where my parents still are: 63% DJT, 34% HRC :(
   1015. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5716895)
My diminutive hometown gave 67 percent of its votes to Clinton. That's pretty much yellow-dog Democrat country, so not particularly shocking. One county over, the zip code for the college town where I went to school shows 71-22 Trump, which strikes me as somewhat counterintuitive.
   1016. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5716898)
I'm not arguing that the meeting was a Huge Deal. Being caught in a stupid lie (again) that, as per #1006, is edging towards legally fishy^ territory, is getting interesting. I doubt you realize that... anyway, you should be aware that when you type "concession accepted", it reads as "I, SBB, now recognize that [PepTech, in this case; substitute Mouse or Zonk or, really, Spongebob Squarepants] is my intellectual superior and I, SBB, lack the capacity to properly discuss even the simplest topics with them."


I think the meeting is a big deal, and the news that Trump knew about it means we should adjust our priors.

At some point last year, we were talking about what we actually thought would come out of the investigation. A number of people said something to the effect of, "Well, I think people on his campaign might have colluded, just out of ignorance, greed and stupidity, but I don't think it went all the way to Trump."

I think this news means that we should probably adjust that POV to say that it's more likely today than it was six months ago that Trump was personally involved in any decision to collude, even if he gave himself deniability by not being in the meeting.

The collusion case is shifting from the Trump Campaign to Donald J. Trump. That's a big deal.
   1017. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5716900)
The only problem with that election map is that the street names are so faint and low contrast it's hard to pinpoint exactly where you are. They need to be in bright yellow or white lettering, not light black on the blue areas.

Places I've either lived in or hung out in for big parts of my life:

W 110th St NYC 92-4.9 Clinton, 30 minutes from nearest Trump precinct

Cleveland Park DC 89-4.9 Clinton, 41 minutes from nearest Trump precinct

Pine St Cambridge MD 86-12 Clinton, but surrounded on all sides by Trump precincts

Swift Ave Durham NC 88-8.1 Clinton, 23 minutes from nearest Trump precinct

Mintwood Pl. DC 91-3.7 Clinton, 41 minutes from nearest Trump precinct

Soward Ct Kensington MD 77-16 Clinton, 29 minutes from nearest Trump precinct

Elkridge MD 51-42 Trump, Clinton precincts right next door
   1018. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5716904)
974

Yes, although "So what if he did it; it's not illegal" is not actually a new defense; people have been using it all along.


Speaking of repeating oneself, I will do just that, right now...

Trumpism in 5 stages:

1 -- IT NEVER HAPPENED! FAKE NEWS!


2 -- OK, it did happen, but it's not a big deal. It's a nothingburger. There's no there there.

3 -- OK, it is a big deal, but it's not illegal.

4 -- OK, it is illegal, but something something Obama administration something something Crooked Hillary something servers something emails something.

5 -- FAKE NEWS!
   1019. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5716905)
The collusion case is shifting from the Trump Campaign to Donald J. Trump. That's a big deal.


There's no such thing as a "collusion case," as there's no such thing as "collusion." (*) It might be a big deal if campaign people or Trump himself were involved in knowingly receiving stolen property, for example, or conspiring in some way to commit an actual crime. But right now, the record is nowhere near that.

There's nothing particularly untoward, much less criminal, about meeting with a Russian, even a Russian government person, to receive campaign intelligence on your opponent.(**) Indeed, the Clinton campaign did it frequently in the very same campaign. So whatever principle would make it untoward as to Trump's people would do exactly the same w/r/t Clinton's. Yes, I know this is very, very difficult for the perpetually hopeful to accept -- even those with law degrees -- but it nonetheless remains unassailably a fact.

I mean, keep hope alive and all, but these are the salient facts. There's no escaping them but through silliness and distinctions without a difference.

(*) And since there isn't, the very real question presents itself as to why DOJ, through Mueller, is investigating it. DOJ is there to investigate crimes.

(**) Usual suspect types will of course shout, "WELL OF COURSE THERE IS!!!!," but they'll offer no real support for that beyond the fact that it was Donald F Trump who happened to do it.

   1020. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5716906)
you just argued that something Trump did was a Huge Deal because if somebody else did it, it would be a Huge Deal
No, that is false. I argued specifically that Presidents prior to Trump possessed enough intelligence (and, perhaps, moral fiber) not to blatantly lie to the public regarding a matter which can be factually disproven. Most of them, anyway. And if they were caught in such a lie, it would matter^. And *then* I implied that for Trump, it probably doesn't matter, largely because of apologist performance artists such as yourself^^.

Just go back to reading philosophy, Otto.

^ Citation: Nixon, Richard M.

^^ Technically, I didn't imply that last bit originally, I'm stating it now.
   1021. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5716907)
The only problem with that election map is that the street names are so faint and low contrast it's hard to pinpoint exactly where you are. They need to be in bright yellow or white lettering, not light black on the blue areas.


we used to produce some really awesome ED maps when I was with WFP in Brooklyn. 72" of color coded data. A little known fact is that anybody can request access to the voter files, you just have to request them from the BOE. In NYC proper usually they will give them to you in a helpful CSV format. The upstate districts liked to send us PDFs. PDFs -- for import into a database. Trump country!
   1022. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5716908)
Essentially the only way "collusion" becomes legally meaningful is if it becomes "conspiracy." (*) To date, none of the indictments has alleged any kind of conspiracy involving both Russians and Americans. And neither Flynn nor Papa would have been permitted to plead guilty to a non-conspiracy charge if Mueller's office in fact believed that they were part of a conspiracy.

Again, difficult facts for many to process -- but facts nonetheless.

(*) Or, one supposes, treason -- but I'm maintaining my typical policy of staying within the zone of sanity,
   1023. Lassus Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5716911)
The upstate districts liked to send us PDFs. PDFs -- for import into a database. Trump country!

That... is awesome. Thank you.
   1024. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5716912)
There's no such thing as a "collusion case," as there's no such thing as "collusion." (*) It might be a big deal if campaign people or Trump himself were involved in knowingly receiving stolen property, for example, or conspiring in some way to commit an actual crime. But right now, the record is nowhere near that.


Collusion is a handy shorthand for the entire universe of criminal liability that the Trump Campaign is being investigated for. These include, but are not limited to: computer crimes (and conspiracy to commit them), campaign finance violations, various forms of fraud, and obstruction of justice.

The fact that Trump himself was involved in these decisions, including both "Catch & Kill" strategies like the National Enquirer, and whether or not to meet with foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.
   1025. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5716915)
Current location: 77% Clinton, 20% Trump
My previous location: 95% Clinton, 3% Trump (Trump got 19 votes; however, I strongly believe that systemic voter fraud inflated his total)
My previous previous location: 83% Clinton, 15% Trump (once upon a time, a guaranteed Reagan-Nixon-Goldwater-Eisenhower-Dewey precinct)
Summer location growing up: 64% Trump, 31% Clinton (the generational improvement for Clinton is based on the beer population dying off and being replaced by the meth generation)
College: 72% Clinton, 24% Trump (based on its past political activism, I would have guessed 14% Clinton, 12% Trump)
Relatives with whom I spend the most time: Trump 49%, Clinton 46%; and Clinton 59%, Trump 37%; and Trump 66%, Clinton 30% (add them up and it's a 152%-135% edge for Trump; I'm pretty sure that's how voting margins work)
   1026. Davo Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5716916)
I missed this. The best people!

Tim Geithner Is Living His Best Post-Obama Life by Running Scam to Bleed Poor People Dry

Sorry if you had anyone else winning in your Most Hideous Career After Leaving the Obama Administration bracket, because Tim Geithner just blew the competition out the water. The Washington Post has a detailed and devastating report, published Sunday evening, about the predatory lending activities of Mariner Finance, a company “owned and managed by a $11.2 billion private equity fund controlled by Warburg Pincus,” of which Geithner is president. Cool job, Tim!

So what does Mariner Finance do? It mails checks to poor people, hoping they’ll cash them without reading the fine print—which reveal sky-high interest rates and a clause forcing the lendee to pay the company’s legal fees should it be forced to sue them for their debts. It’s a neat little scam that works in tandem with the other revolting ways America extracts money from its poor.

(...)The Post interviewed several former employees, including one branch manager who said he felt “embarrassed” by what he did there: “Were there a few loans that actually helped people? Yes. Were 80 percent of them predatory? Probably.”

But seriously, guillotine these psychopathic vultures.
   1027. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5716920)
1019

there's no such thing as "collusion."


The owners of MLB teams in 1987 would disagree with this statement.
   1028. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5716925)
Wow, these latest developments must have struck some kinda nerve: Bear is spinning HARD today...
   1029. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5716926)
Collusion is a handy shorthand for the entire universe of criminal liability that the Trump Campaign is being investigated for.


Right, like I said -- it has no independent meaning.
   1030. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5716927)
There's no such thing as a "collusion case," as there's no such thing as "collusion." (*) It might be a big deal if campaign people or Trump himself were involved in knowingly receiving stolen property, for example, or conspiring in some way to commit an actual crime. But right now, the record is nowhere near that.


One of the many terrific features of BTF is that you can often figure out who's making certain comments even when you have them on Ignore.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Collusion is a handy shorthand for the entire universe of criminal liability that the Trump Campaign is being investigated for. These include, but are not limited to: computer crimes (and conspiracy to commit them), campaign finance violations, various forms of fraud, and obstruction of justice.

The fact that Trump himself was involved in these decisions, including both "Catch & Kill" strategies like the National Enquirer, and whether or not to meet with foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


Only if you're not fellating Trump while saying that Modern Liberals are forcing you to do it.
   1031. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5716931)
foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


The only campaign that got intel from a foreign power was the Clinton campaign.
   1032. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5716933)
Only if you're not fellating Trump while saying that Modern Liberals are forcing you to do it.

You did not preface the world "fellate" with the word "rhetorically." You hate monger.
   1033. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5716936)
These include, but are not limited to: computer crimes (and conspiracy to commit them), campaign finance violations, various forms of fraud, and obstruction of justice.


So "collusion" now involves making payments to women with whom Trump had an affair.

LOL, indeed.

The fact that Trump himself was involved in these decisions, including both "Catch & Kill" strategies like the National Enquirer, and whether or not to meet with foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


No, it really isn't. Indeed, whatever it is you mean by "Catch & Kill" doesn't even have the first thing to do with Russia.
   1034. BrianBrianson Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5716938)
foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


The only campaign that got intel from a foreign power was the Clinton campaign.


For those of us who're living in America, that's not true, though. I mean, you know the rest of us aren't in offices along Volkhonskoye Shosse right?
   1035. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5716939)

(*) And since there isn't, the very real question presents itself as to why DOJ, through Mueller, is investigating it. DOJ is there to investigate crimes.
Actually, Mueller's first (but not only) assignment is to investigate Russian interference in the election.

Indeed, the Clinton campaign did it frequently in the very same campaign.
I bet if you pretend this imaginary thing happened long enough, it still will never have happened. But they may lock you back up in the loony bin.
   1036. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5716941)
Actually, Mueller's first (but not only) assignment is to investigate Russian interference in the election.


Relating to crimes. Indeed, investigating crimes is the only basis upon which a special counsel can be named. (See 28 CFR 600.1).

I bet if you pretend this imaginary thing happened long enough, it still will never have happened.


Denying the obvious isn't the greatest of looks, but this is a free country and an open forum, so have at it. It's not as though the dossier and its sourcing is some kind of secret at this point. The words are right there for all to see.
   1037. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5716942)

#1026 - I am personally not a fan of the Mariner practice of mailing people checks and some of the other things they do, but the numbers in the Washington Post article don't really support the vitriol. Even if you have good credit, a bank will still charge 15-25% on your credit card balance. Charging 30-36% for loans that have a much higher risk of loss does not strike me as unreasonable. If someone could make a reasonable profit charging those same customers 20%, they would put Mariner and its competitors out of business. But we don't really see that happening.

Per the article, 8% of Mariner's loans are written off per year -- we are not talking about 2007 subprime mortgage loans where 20-25% were going into default within the first 12 months. The vast majority of people who take out these loans can pay them.
   1038. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5716943)
#1033:
The fact that Trump himself was involved in these decisions, including both "Catch & Kill" strategies like the National Enquirer, and whether or not to meet with foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


No, it really isn't.


Ah, the compelling "Calgon, take me away!" theory of jurisprudence. The classic indicator of the side that's winning.

"This is a third-rate collusion attempt that has no independent meaning, and I am not going to dignify the matter with further comment. Certain elements may try to stretch this beyond what it is."
   1039. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5716944)
I bet if you pretend this imaginary thing happened long enough, it still will never have happened. But they may lock you back up in the loony bin


In that case he might need a good lawyer.
   1040. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5716945)
Denying the obvious isn't the greatest of looks, but this is a free country and an open forum, so have at it. It's not as though the dossier and its sourcing is some kind of secret at this point.
What's also not a secret is that Hillary Clinton didn't write the dossier.


(What's also true is that its sourcing actually is a secret, which has led you on even-numbered trolling days to claim that Steele never talked to anyone and just made it all up.)
   1041. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5716949)
What's also not a secret is that Hillary Clinton didn't write the dossier.


Never said she did. Nor has anyone else. Nice trolling effort, though. Might get some target demo play, hard to say.

What's also true is that its sourcing actually is a secret


Um, no. It's right there in the dossier. In many places. Shall we go back over the dossier's description of, for example, "Source A," and "Source B"?

Again, it's not as though the dossier is hard to find, making denials of the obvious a bit mysterious.

The dossier is actually worse in a way. The DNC emails have a source independent of the Russians who stole them. So even if Trump is knee-deep in knowledge about the Russian theft, at the end of the day he wouldn't be saying about the emails, "Here's what the Russians are saying about my opponent." The dossier, however, did say, "Here's what the Russians are saying about my opponent." Only Hillary Clinton used Russian-sourced "words" to try to win the election.
   1042. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5716952)
we used to produce some really awesome ED maps

I am guessing the map for BBTF would look rather flaccid.
   1043. dlf Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5716958)
Not that it is the same thing as the inverted yield Traderdave and I have discussed before, but Capital One is now paying 1.75% on an 18 month CD and 2.30% on a 12 month.
   1044. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5716959)
Mueller must be getting close to something. I know this, because Bear's flailing so hard his head is about to explode.
   1045. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5716961)
Mueller must be getting close to something. I know this, because Bear's flailing so hard his head is about to explode.


Mueller's been getting "close to something" for well over a year now. His investigation is starting to resemble Hyman Roth, who'd been dying of the same heart attack for the past 20 years.

And there's no flailing on my part. Precisely the opposite. Others are. Tough to flail about more fish out of water-like than, "Collusion is just a shorthand for anything Trump is being investigated for."
   1046. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5716962)
You seem particularly testy today.
   1047. Hot Wheeling American Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5716965)
Mueller's been getting "close to something" for well over a year now. His investigation is starting to resemble Hyman Roth, who'd been dying of the same heart attack for the past 20 years.

Relevant
   1048. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5716972)
YR, #1039:
In that case he might need a good lawyer.


If anyone's looking for one, Rudy Guiliani offered a strong recommendation on TV three weeks ago for the very available Michael Cohen: "The man is an honorable, honest lawyer."

But Guiliani warns you to stay away from this guy Michael Cohen: "He's a pathological liar... he has lied all his life."
   1049. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5716976)
S-B-B, #1045:
Mueller's been getting "close to something" for well over a year now. His investigation is starting to resemble Hyman Roth, who'd been dying of the same heart attack for the past 20 years.

#FakeJews
   1050. Shredder Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5716981)
I *too* was surprised that my district...

Oh who am I kidding, we went 91-5% for Clinton.
Mine was 87% to 8% for Clinton. Nearest Trump precinct is a 17 minute drive. Makes me wonder who the 46 ######## are who voted for Trump.
   1051. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5716984)
For anyone playing Trump Presidential Bingo, there are two new spaces to fill.

This week, Newt Gingrich compared Donald Trump to Abraham Lincoln (because both were boldly fighting to preserve the Constitution and the Union, while being bitterly opposed by Democrats).

While Rudy Guiliani said Trump is like George Washington (each cruelly betrayed by the disloyal Benedict Arnold / Michael Cohen).
   1052. GordonShumway Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5716986)
My former neighborhood in Park Slope that went 95%-2.3% Clinton-Trump is pretty liberal, but it's also a very white, fairly affluent area. I would have guessed that the precinct went 70%-30% Clinton-Trump.

I know I'm not saying anything groundbreaking, but it is very interesting how much geographic sorting there is not just by race and income, but also by political affiliation.
   1053. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5716988)
Mueller's been getting "close to something" for well over a year now. His investigation is starting to resemble Hyman Roth, who'd been dying of the same heart attack for the past 20 years.

And there's no flailing on my part. Precisely the opposite. Others are. Tough to flail about more fish out of water-like than, "Collusion is just a shorthand for anything Trump is being investigated for."
Not flailing - conflating. "Collusion" is what the people who don't understand all the nuances call "the Mueller investigation". Actual collusion may or may not be part of the end result. Real lawyers, and any other people intelligently discussing the topic, understand this.

"(i) Any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation"


That's what Mueller had to go on. Papa and Flynn qualify as "links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign". So Mueller looked into their activities, and found "matters that arose" which were indictment-worthy. Were the indictments, strictly speaking, campaign collusion? That's a trick question - it doesn't matter.

If (and I say "if" because it has not yet been proven), say, DJTJr committed perjury regarding his father's foreknowledge of the Watergate break-in the Trump Tower meeting, then that would also be a matter that arose "directly from the investigation". This isn't rocket science. Cover-up worse than the crime, and all that.

Rosenstein's order gave Mueller a mandate to pull on loose threads. That's what "any matters" means; it doesn't stop and start on what SBB defines as worthy. We'll see where it leads. Any month now...
   1054. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5716991)
I think the meeting is a big deal, and the news that Trump knew about it means we should adjust our priors.

Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful. People in politics have always had an ear to the ground for that stuff, including from non-citizens when available. Seems strange that folks here keep circling back to this one meeting, as if if implicitly conceding there's nothing more significant on the collusion front so they need to cast this one event as something sinister. Doesn't seem likely to work.
   1055. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5716995)
Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful.

Then why lie about it, repeatedly?
   1056. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5716999)
   1057. Lassus Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5717002)
I am disturbed by the title host of that gif, what are you, a bass?
   1058. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5717003)
Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful
There's nothing unlawful about me stopping after work for a beer or three, either. But if I do, and my wife asks me, and I say I didn't, then when she goes over the credit card bill, I'm going to be in trouble.

And the main thing I'm going to be in trouble about is, "why did I lie about it, since having a beer or three is, in itself, no big deal?"
   1059. How can it be QPQ if Zonk Says it isn't a QPQ? Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5717008)
Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful. People in politics have always had an ear to the ground for that stuff, including from non-citizens when available. Seems strange that folks here keep circling back to this one meeting, as if if implicitly conceding there's nothing more significant on the collusion front so they need to cast this one event as something sinister. Doesn't seem likely to work.


Then why put so much effort into denying it?

Between hiding it for a year, freaking out and Doofus himself fashioning the excuse - allegedly after talking with Putin - then denying it went any further than that for another year...

Even the most steadfast Trumpkin has to admit.

There is something extraordinarily odd about denying something for so long with so much effort and so many twists and turns and so strenuously that "doesn't matter anyway".

That's without even getting into the promised "big news" speech that just happened to slated for less than a week after the meeting but never came to pass.

Frankly, I'm starting to wonder if the bottom line is that Trump's continued Putin mancrush isn't because Putin actually knows there's more and that's what he actually has hanging over Trump... maybe the original malfeasance wasn't even that big of a deal or only "kind of" criminal, but now Putin has drug Trump in so deep he can't get out.

It's a lot more of a logical conclusion than all the work and effort going to covering up/denying/deflecting/disavowing a meeting that was "no big deal" anyway.

EDIT: Cokes... the logic - or illogic - is just so inescapable that I cannot comprehend how or why the Trumpkins keep up the charade.
   1060. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5717010)
SBB's obvious answer is that Trump had no choice but to lie about this insignificant meeting, because all you people have TDS and would have overreacted had he been honest.
   1061. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5717016)
Does this mean she subjected others to Don Jr. dick pics???

Kimberly Guilfoyle did not leave Fox News voluntarily, HuffPost reported Friday.

According to interviews with 21 sources that HuffPost reporter Yashar Ali conducted over the course of a year, Guilfoyle was pushed out of the network after the human resources department conducted an investigation into allegations of abusive behavior and sexual misconduct.

Guilfoyle — who said she left the network to join an organization that advocates for her boyfriend’s (Donald Trump Jr.) father’s (President Trump) agenda — reportedly was resistant to leaving and tried to stay past her July exit deadline. She even attempted to appeal to Rupert Murdoch, a longtime friend of President Trump, to keep her on the air. But Murdoch ultimately signed off on her ouster because he was “not interested in allowing” her behavior to continue, in Ali’s words.

Sources who spoke to HuffPost said Guilfoyle was emotionally abusive toward hair and makeup artists; regularly talked about sexual matters with an assistant who was uninterested in having those conversations; and showed colleagues pictures of male genitalia at work, often identifying whose genitalia she was showing them.


Politifact
   1062. How can it be QPQ if Zonk Says it isn't a QPQ? Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5717018)
SBB's obvious answer is that Trump had no choice but to lie about this insignificant meeting, because all you people have TDS and would have overreacted had he been honest.


Of course...

But then, even armchair psychologists would probably know that even in the case of significant trauma, if an individual constructs intricate and unending defense mechanism against real and/or perceived reactionsby millions of other people - the syndrome or illness, benign or malignant, belongs to the individual who constructed intricate public-facing fantasy worlds in reaction.

So... if the answer is either "Trump colluded with Russia and broke some manner of laws in either/and doing so/covering it up" or "Trump is mentally unstable and really shouldn't be President because of it"....

OK. I would accept that as a compromise position.
   1063. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5717020)
@1060 - Actually, that's Ray's argument, not SBB's. Trump is morally obligated to lie because of the way Ghazala Khan viciously attacked him at the DNC. Oh, and because Lassus or Andy or some other poster said "Clown Hitler".

SBB is more along the lines of "the rise of Trump is a natural outcome of the Decline, and all you modern liberals deserve your TDS aquavit mayonnaise from flubber banshee while HRC! HRC!", or something like that, it's hard to focus after awhile.
   1064. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5717023)
Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful. People in politics have always had an ear to the ground for that stuff, including from non-citizens when available. Seems strange that folks here keep circling back to this one meeting, as if if implicitly conceding there's nothing more significant on the collusion front so they need to cast this one event as something sinister. Doesn't seem likely to work.


No. Taking information from a hostile foreign power on an opponent is a serious violation of campaign norms, and is probably illegal (but not certainly!).

It is certainly unlawful to accept a quid pro quo--doing something on "adoptions" in exchange for this information.

This is not normal, and your lying on behalf of your president does not do you any favors.
   1065. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5717042)
"Why did Trump lie about this"????, solemnly ask the very same people who plausibly argue each day, every day .... that Trump lies about everything.
   1066. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5717047)
Taking a meeting with folks claiming to have negative information on a political opponent is not unlawful.


"I crossed an imaginary line with a bunch of plants." - George Jung regarding his smuggling of marijuana across the border
   1067. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5717049)
"Why did Trump lie about this"????, solemnly ask the very same people who plausibly argue each day, every day .... that Trump lies about everything.


"He lies all the time, so it's OK that he lied about this!"
   1068. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5717051)
Does this mean she subjected others to Don Jr. dick pics???

Do you think he slicks back his pubic hair as well?
   1069. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5717056)
"Why did Trump lie about this"????, solemnly ask the very same people who plausibly argue each day, every day .... that Trump lies about everything.
Fair point, he does. Remember the good old days, when Spicer trotted out there (on an off day, IIRC) to insist that Trump's inauguration crowd was bigger than Obama's? Good times.

Serious aside: If one admits that Trump lies all the time, why declare TDS whenever someone correctly points it out? A lie is still a lie, regardless of the frequency. It's not deranged to call a lie what it is. But anyway, a decent question - why did Trump lie about THIS??? And the corollary: Why is THIS lie any different?

The answer is that this wasn't an off-the-cuff lie, this was a fabric of lies, misstatements, contradictions, and falsehoods over about a three week period (it wasn't about HRC, it was about adoption. The president knew, he didn't know. He was involved in drafting the statement, but he didn't know about the meeting and wasn't briefed on it. He was briefed, but no Clinton dirt ever appeared, so none of it matters. Etc., etc.) This all two full months after Mueller received his orders, and while the Administration continued to smear Mueller and his team with the PR war about a witch hunt and hoax. It smells weird. Real lawyers understand this.
   1070. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5717057)
The Independent:
Juncker used ‘brightly colored, simple flashcards’ to explain trade to Trump during meeting

European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker reportedly used brightly colored flash cards to explain international trade to US president Donald Trump.

The pair met at the White House earlier this week for trade negotiations and Mr Juncker used cards with simple language and easy-to-understand explanations, according to a senior EU official who was at the meeting and spoke to the Wall Street Journal. “Each card had at most three figures about a specific topic, such as trade in cars or standards for medical devices,” the paper reported.

The official said the EU team of negotiators was aware it was “not an academic seminar”.

E is for Emoluments! S is for Soybeans! T is for Treason!
   1071. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5717062)
D is for Derangement!!
   1072. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5717068)
D is for Derangement!!
See, now, THIS is a proper example of TDS, much like the story last spring about how the Trumps were the first First Family to not have a dog in forever. So what.

Exactly *how* deranged each new story is, and where it fits on the Continuum of Crap that is this Administration, is perfectly worthy of discussion. What SBB asserts, or pretends to, is that Every Trump Story is a Zero unless he declares it different and Decline triple FizZbin florp Modern Liberal platypus ridge snaggle skating HRC! HRC! Real lawyers understand this.
   1073. How can it be QPQ if Zonk Says it isn't a QPQ? Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5717069)
P is for Projection!
   1074. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5717072)
Serious aside: If one admits that Trump lies all the time, why declare TDS whenever someone correctly points it out?

You do know whom you're addressing with that question, don't you? (HINT: You can probably find him here.)

A lie is still a lie, regardless of the frequency. It's not deranged to call a lie what it is. But anyway, a decent question - why did Trump lie about THIS??? And the corollary: Why is THIS lie any different?

The problem is that Trump lies about everything, because if he ever told the truth about anything he'd be afraid he might get into a bad habit. He thinks telling the truth would be like taking his first puff from a crack pipe.
   1075. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5717075)
What's also not a secret is that Hillary Clinton didn't write the dossier.

Never said she did.
I don't blame you for not paying attention to the things you say. But in fact you did. See post 1019.
   1076. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5717076)
If SBB keeps rhetorically fellating himself with such vigor, he might throw out his figurative back and have to go see an allegorical chiropractor.
   1077. Lassus Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5717077)
D is for Derangement!!

Like how all those parents and kids who still haven't been reunited are probably feeling.
   1078. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5717082)
I don't blame you for not paying attention to the things you say. But in fact you did. See post 1019.


Wow. That one's not even close.

But it's obviously target demo material, so the requisite adjustments have been made.
   1079. . Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5717083)
The problem is that Trump lies about everything, because if he ever told the truth about anything he'd be afraid he might get into a bad habit. He thinks telling the truth would be like taking his first puff from a crack pipe.


From which it follows that he didn't lie about the meeting because there was something untoward about the meeting, but because he lies about everything.

I thought this was clear, but apparently it isn't. It's rather elementary logic.
   1080. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5717084)
Yes, although "So what if he did it; it's not illegal" is not actually a new defense; people have been using it all along.

Nobody, admittedly, has gone as far as Ray's "Trump had a moral obligation to collude," though.


I recall saying something like "I don't give a rat's ass even if he did collude to beat Hillary because he was a better choice than Hillary" (*) but I don't recall saying he had a moral obligation to collude. If you source the quote you're referring to we can all have a look.

(*) This is because I don't care about collusion per se (**) and everyone has always done anything under the sun to win elections even colluding with foreign governments even colluding with enemy foreign governments even paying someone to pay someone to pay Christopher Steele to collude with enemy foreign governments.

(**) I do care whether the folks who were talking out of their asses when they accused Trump of colluding will ever find any evidence of such.
   1081. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5717085)

The Daily News fired all its sportswriters, but this guy still has a job in sports "journalism"?
   1082. BDC Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5717092)
this guy still has a job in sports "journalism"?


Am I reading that right? A student-athlete skyped into a media event instead of flying to it, citing actually having to attend class, and a sportswriter wants to make a scandal about it? I sure hope that writer's body of work does not include columns bemoaning the lack of "students" in NCAA athletics.
   1083. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5717093)
Ray to David, #1080:
I don't recall saying he had a moral obligation to collude. If you source the quote you're referring to we can all have a look.


Don't do it, Dave! It's a trick. There's already one properly sourced quote Ray doesn't even acknowledge. Something about the mouth of the Euphrates.
   1084. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5717094)
Sure. But I'm not a "real lawyer." I'm a real lawyer. (People can look me up and everything.)


David mainly does labor law and soft IP, some commercial lit. No particular relevance to most of the legal issues we discuss here.

(He bizarrely looks down at me for being a patent lawyer. At least that's hard IP.)
   1085. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5717096)
I recall saying something like "I don't give a rat's ass even if he did collude to beat Hillary because he was a better choice than Hillary" (*) but I don't recall saying he had a moral obligation to collude. ...

(*) This is because I don't care about collusion per se (**) and everyone has always done anything under the sun to win elections even colluding with foreign governments even colluding with enemy foreign governments even paying someone to pay someone to pay Christopher Steele to collude with enemy foreign governments.


So if Trump made a secret deal with Putin to feed classified information to the Russian intelligence agency, in return for helping him sabotage the Clinton campaign, it'd be okay, because the candidate who would feed classified information to the Russians was a better choice than the candidate who wouldn't.

   1086. PepTech Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5717097)
If you source the quote you're referring to we can all have a look.
This one, for starters. See #5313.
   1087. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5717099)
So if Trump made a secret deal with Putin to feed classified information to the Russian intelligence agency, in return for helping him sabotage the Clinton campaign, it'd be okay, because the candidate who would feed classified information to the Russians was a better choice than the candidate who wouldn't.


Wouldn't what? She paid someone to pay someone to hire a foreign spy to dig up dirt on her opponent from an enemy foreign government and then her campaign peddled that information to the US media and intelligence agencies, causing her opponent's campaign to go under federal investigation.

In stark contrast, your "would" above is purely hypothetical.

Also, learn to read better: I didn't say I was ok with illegal acts, especially releasing classified information to a foreign government; I said I was ok with collusion.
   1088. How can it be QPQ if Zonk Says it isn't a QPQ? Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5717100)
   1089. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:13 PM (#5717103)
3) Trump wasn't under *oath* when he repeatedly denied foreknowledge.

No, but Jr. was when he testified to Congress that Sr. had no knowledge. If Sr. helped prepare Jr's testimony, and that testimony can be proven to be false...


...Then? Why did your thought trail off?

I do love how now the lying villain Michael Cohen has suddenly been turned into the truth telling hero Michael Cohen.

   1090. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5717106)
I'm not arguing that the meeting was a Huge Deal. Being caught in a stupid lie (again) that, as per #1006, is edging towards legally fishy^ territory, is getting interesting. I doubt you realize that... anyway, you should be aware that when you type "concession accepted", it reads as "I, SBB, now recognize that [PepTech, in this case; substitute Mouse or Zonk or, really, Spongebob Squarepants] is my intellectual superior and I, SBB, lack the capacity to properly discuss even the simplest topics with them."

I think the meeting is a big deal, and the news that Trump knew about it means we should adjust our priors.


Since the meeting was a nothingburger, whether Trump Sr. knew about it is a nothingburger.

This has always been the case.
   1091. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5717107)

(He bizarrely looks down at me for being a patent lawyer. At least that's hard IP.)
WRT patent lawyers, some of them, I assume, are good people.

It's just that they've never been inside a courtroom. Unless they once had their drivers' licenses suspended.
   1092. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5717111)
The collusion case is shifting from the Trump Campaign to Donald J. Trump. That's a big deal.


There's no such thing as a "collusion case," as there's no such thing as "collusion." (*)


Yeah, that was my thought too. There's a "collusion case" in the same way there was a "Vince Foster murder case."

But hope shall be kept alive.

It might be a big deal if campaign people or Trump himself were involved in knowingly receiving stolen property, for example, or conspiring in some way to commit an actual crime. But right now, the record is nowhere near that.


Also an obvious point, but somehow the anti-Trumpers can't tell the difference between what is a big deal and what isn't.

If Trump conspired with the Russians to hack the DNC's emails that would obviously be a big deal. But not conspiring with the Russians to hack the DNC's emails..... isn't.

There's nothing particularly untoward, much less criminal, about meeting with a Russian, even a Russian government person, to receive campaign intelligence on your opponent.(**) Indeed, the Clinton campaign did it frequently in the very same campaign. So whatever principle would make it untoward as to Trump's people would do exactly the same w/r/t Clinton's. Yes, I know this is very, very difficult for the perpetually hopeful to accept -- even those with law degrees -- but it nonetheless remains unassailably a fact.


Indeed. What the Clinton campaign did was orders of magnitude worse than the nothingburger of meeting with someone who says they have dirt on your opponent.
   1093. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5717113)
There's no such thing as a "collusion case," as there's no such thing as "collusion." (*) It might be a big deal if campaign people or Trump himself were involved in knowingly receiving stolen property, for example, or conspiring in some way to commit an actual crime. But right now, the record is nowhere near that.

Collusion is a handy shorthand for the entire universe of criminal liability that the Trump Campaign is being investigated for. These include, but are not limited to: computer crimes (and conspiracy to commit them),


Neither Trump nor anyone in his campaign would have the foggiest notion how to commit a "computer crime."

campaign finance violations, various forms of fraud, and obstruction of justice.

The fact that Trump himself was involved in these decisions, including both "Catch & Kill" strategies like the National Enquirer, and whether or not to meet with foreign powers providing stolen intel, is a big deal.


Obstruction for firing Comey is a made-up charge. Trump may have committed campaign finance violations, which are not high crimes.

Back to the drawing board?
   1094. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5717114)
What the Clinton campaign did was orders of magnitude worse than the nothingburger of meeting with someone who says they have dirt on your opponent.


Orders of magnitude worse than nothing would also be nothing.
   1095. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5717117)
Mueller must be getting close to something. I know this, because Bear's flailing so hard his head is about to explode.


Mueller is leaking to nobody except SBB? Huh?
   1096. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:28 PM (#5717118)

Orders of magnitude worse than nothing would also be nothing.
I like the cut of your jib.
   1097. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5717119)
"Why did Trump lie about this"????, solemnly ask the very same people who plausibly argue each day, every day .... that Trump lies about everything.


But when Trump says something that's bad for him -- such as one of the versions he gave about the Comey firing -- they swear he's telling the truth. They fight you to the ground defending Donald Trump, Truth Teller.

You can't make it up.
   1098. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5717121)

You'll notice that nobody sincerely believes the Trump Tower meeting was a nothingburger. None of the American participants said, "Yeah, we met with them to get dirt on Hillary. That's perfectly legal. What's it to you?" Everyone realizes that if the meeting was what it purported to be, what the documentary evidence says it was, that it's a huge problem. So instead, they give a "I smoked but I didn't inhale" defense: "Yeah, we went, but they just showed us cute cat videos on YouTube, so we left after a few minutes."
   1099. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5717122)
I like the cut of your jib.


Feel free to rhetorically fellate my jib anytime.
   1100. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5717123)
Flipflop
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