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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   1101. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5717124)
But when Trump says something that's bad for him -- such as one of the versions he gave about the Comey firing -- they swear he's telling the truth. They fight you to the ground defending Donald Trump, Truth Teller.
Do they not teach about statements against interest in Fake Law School and Patents 101?
   1102. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5717127)
I do love how now the lying villain Michael Cohen has suddenly been turned into the truth telling hero Michael Cohen.

This is a lie. Ray is lying. No one has turned Cohen into a hero. Please stop lying, Ray.
   1103. BrianBrianson Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5717128)
Having foreigners do their bidding is probably generally a good quality in an American President.

Doing the bidding of foreigners is probably generally a bad quality in an American President.

Conflating the two is probably a useful quality in a troll ;)
   1104. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5717130)

But when Trump says something that's bad for him -- such as one of the versions he gave about the Comey firing -- they swear he's telling the truth. They fight you to the ground defending Donald Trump, Truth Teller.

I assume he wouldn't make up a lie if it was damaging to himself. You seem to think that Trump only tells the truth when it's against his own best interests, and only lies when it isn't. Weird position to take. Or maybe you're arguing that he's too stupid to tell the difference?
   1105. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5717132)
Seeing the Little Lord and the Fake Lawyer rhetorically fellate each other over and over again never gets old. I hate lawyers and the law but since I’m not allowed to opt-out of the system they’ve forced on me (at gunpoint) I’ve had to interact with a few over the years. All of them could make a coherent argument, these pumpkins and their hero Rudy Giuliani must presumably be exceptions.
   1106. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5717136)
But when Trump says something that's bad for him -- such as one of the versions he gave about the Comey firing -- they swear he's telling the truth. They fight you to the ground defending Donald Trump, Truth Teller.

Do they not teach about statements against interest in Fake Law School and Patents 101?


Why do you need an exception to hearsay to offer into evidence what Trump told Lester Holt on national tv?
   1107. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5717139)
But when Trump says something that's bad for him -- such as one of the versions he gave about the Comey firing -- they swear he's telling the truth. They fight you to the ground defending Donald Trump, Truth Teller.

I assume he wouldn't make up a lie if it was damaging to himself.


Unless he didn't understand that it was damaging to himself.

And He. Lies. All. The. Time.

So everyone keeps saying. Except when he's George Washington.
   1108. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5717153)
(He bizarrely looks down at me for being a patent lawyer. At least that's hard IP.)

WRT patent lawyers, some of them, I assume, are good people.

It's just that they've never been inside a courtroom. Unless they once had their drivers' licenses suspended.


Courtroom experience is of little help to the legal issues we discuss here. We basically discuss bar exam questions.
   1109. baravelli Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5717159)
I recall saying something like "I don't give a rat's ass even if he did collude to beat Hillary because he was a better choice than Hillary" (*) but I don't recall saying he had a moral obligation to collude. If you source the quote you're referring to we can all have a look.


Anyone who is interested, see post 1102 at

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/otp_10_july_2017_jim_bunnings_brethren_baseball_men_who_went_into_politics/P1100

And thus EVERY campaign should be morally obligated to take a meeting with someone who the campaign believes may have some valuable and truthful oppo research, NO MATTER if the information is coming from an enemy power or not.
   1110. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5717161)
baravelli is killing it with the BTF Google.


Ray, #1089:
I do love how now the lying villain Michael Cohen has suddenly been turned into the truth telling hero Michael Cohen.

I love how John Gotti didn't die in prison after everybody realized that Sammy "the Bull" Gravano was an unsavory self-serving liar who completely changed his story.
   1111. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5717162)
Anyone who is interested, see post 1102 at

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/otp_10_july_2017_jim_bunnings_brethren_baseball_men_who_went_into_politics/P1100


Yes, I did say that.

My full comment:

The thing that's laughable about drawing such a distinction, David, is that it's something a child would do, not being old enough or wise enough to understand the deeper issues. There's no reason for such a distinction. You're worried about an enemy foreign power influencing our election. But that's a simpleton's view of the issue, because you're coming at it from the wrong angle. Elections SHOULD be influenced by the truthful fruits of oppo research. And thus EVERY campaign should be morally obligated to take a meeting with someone who the campaign believes may have some valuable and truthful oppo research, NO MATTER if the information is coming from an enemy power or not.

If Russia goes to the Clinton campaign and says, "We have information that Donald Trump sexually assaulted twelve women and then bragged about it on Access Hollywood, here, we'll show you the tape," it would be IRRESPONSIBLE for the Clinton campaign NOT to take the meeting. This is the election for US president. And if there is information out there that a candidate is wholly unfit for the office, information that could sway the election and save the country from a major mistake, that information SHOULD be solicited and obtained -- and publicized from the highest of rooftops. No matter who the information is coming from. To NOT take the meeting is closer to treasonous than to take the meeting.

So again, you have such a rube's view of this. And as such you've reached exactly the wrong conclusion. You're an intelligent person, so why are you allowing yourself to be snowed on this issue?
   1112. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5717163)
baravelli is killing it with the BTF Google.


At this rate, Ray will be reduced to non-responsive soliloquies by Labor Day... Oh, wait.
   1113. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:40 PM (#5717164)
Baravellli: thank you! I was not making it up, but I did not have the mental energy this afternoon to do the searches needed to find it. (I did do a quick search for "moral obligation," but that didn't work, and I gave up after that.) Morally obligated, moral obligation. Same thing.
   1114. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:40 PM (#5717165)
The thing that's laughable about drawing such a distinction, David, is that it's something a child would do, not being old enough or wise enough to understand the deeper issues


Hard to believe we’d see such erudite condescension from the man who claimed climate change was a hoax.
   1115. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5717166)

Please stop lying, Ray.
But then he'd be reduced to talking about Frasier and catcher's throwing lanes.
   1116. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5717167)
Quoted in #1111:
To NOT take the meeting is closer to treasonous than to take the meeting.


Unreal.

Slurp, slurp, slurp. Iran is going to be jealous...
   1117. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5717168)
Ah, yes, I did say that. It's not what David said I said.


You're getting rhetorically flagellated here.
   1118. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5717169)
David said I said, "Trump had a moral obligation to collude," which is actually not what I said. I said "every campaign" should take a meeting where valuable and truthful information about their opponent is being offered, even if it's being offered by an enemy foreign government. I then gave the example of the Russian government offering Hillary truthful evidence that Trump had sexually assaulted 12 women.

I stand by that.
   1119. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5717171)
Please stop lying, Ray.

But then he'd be reduced to talking about Frasier and catcher's throwing lanes.


Not sure what you think I'm lying about, but carry on.
   1120. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5717173)
David said I said, "Trump had a moral obligation to collude," which is actually not what I said. I said "every campaign" should take a meeting where valuable and truthful information about their opponent is being offered, even if it's being offered by an enemy foreign government. I then gave the example of the Russian government offering Hillary truthful evidence that Trump had sexually assaulted 12 women.


Was the Trump campaign not in the subset of "every" campaign?

David said that you said that Trump had a moral obligation to collude. You did say that. You also said that every other campaign had an obligation to collude as well. David did not say or imply that you didn't.
   1121. BDC Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5717174)
If Russia goes to the Clinton campaign and says, "We have information that Donald Trump sexually assaulted twelve women and then bragged about it on Access Hollywood, here, we'll show you the tape," it would be IRRESPONSIBLE for the Clinton campaign NOT to take the meeting


A year-old comment, I know, but it's of the form "if some rando goes to Dan Rather and says 'I have information that George W Bush was a ####-up in the National Guard, it would be irresponsible for Rather not to pursue the matter'."
   1122. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5717175)
From earlier today, evidence that Robert Mueller is hot on Donald Jr.'s tail...
   1123. Srul Itza Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5717176)
It's just that they've never been inside a courtroom.


Having done patent litigation, patent-related litigation, and trade secret litigation, I am going to have to disagree.

I am not talking about myself. I am not talking about litigators who do a certain amount of patent litigation. I am talking about patent lawyers with whom I have co-counseled, who do engage in courtroom litigation as well as other patent work.
   1124. Srul Itza Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5717178)
Please stop lying, Ray.


You might as well ask him to stop breathing.

.
.
.
.
.
. . . . NAH, I won't say it.

I'll think it. But I won't say it.
   1125. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:05 PM (#5717179)
Was the Trump campaign not in the subset of "every" campaign?

David said that you said that Trump had a moral obligation to collude. You did say that. You also said that every other campaign had an obligation to collude as well. David did not say or imply that you didn't.


No, actually, by saying "You said Trump had a moral obligation to collude" the implication is that I was carving out a special set of rules for Trump. I was not, which is quite clear from what I said in the post Baravelli linked to.

I also did not say "collude," which gets into the matter of whether taking a meeting but doing nothing illegal is "collusion" of any real moment, which is the whole Don Jr. nothingburger issue.

--

What's the scandal here, exactly? Where's the lying? I agree I wrote what Baravelli quoted.
   1126. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:13 PM (#5717182)
   1127. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5717183)
No, actually, by saying "You said Trump had a moral obligation to collude" the implication is that I was carving out a special set of rules for Trump.


No, actually, not at all. There is no such implication.

What's the scandal here, exactly? Where's the lying? I agree I wrote what Baravelli quoted.


You're lying that David misrepresented your comments.
   1128. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5717185)

Having done patent litigation, patent-related litigation, and trade secret litigation, I am going to have to disagree.

I am not talking about myself. I am not talking about litigators who do a certain amount of patent litigation. I am talking about patent lawyers with whom I have co-counseled, who do engage in courtroom litigation as well as other patent work.
First, it was a pop culture reference, one that I knew Ray would get.
Second, I'm pretty sure Ray does patent prosecution but not patent litigation.
   1129. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5717187)
It took Trump several days to get the media's attention off his fellating of Putin in Helsinki. It's taken Ray less than 24 hours to get BTF off his "fellate Iran" comment, even though he's never apologized or even acknowledged that he wrote it. You've gotta admire the talent.
   1130. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5717189)
Not sure what you think I'm lying about, but carry on.

Who is portraying Cohen as a hero, liar?
   1131. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5717191)
I’ve always said I don’t care about collusion per se (I said it earlier today) and that my only interest in collusion here is that people are applying standards to Hillary and trump unevenly. I stand by what I said in the section baravelli quoted.
   1132. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5717194)
Helpful tip, Ray: After the week you've had and are still having, you might want to go lighter on the "I've always said." baravelli hasn't died yet.

But if you're feeling brave and sure, Ray, how about accounting for your "everyone's a contemptible homophobe but me" year of shameless bullshit? Cowardice is... not a good look.
   1133. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5717198)
But if you're feeling brave and sure, Ray, how about accounting for your "everyone's a contemptible homophobe but me" year of shameless bullshit? Cowardice is... not a good look.

Hell, if it wasn't for his cowardly look, Ray wouldn't have any look at all.
   1134. BDC Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5717201)
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems? Ray is wrong about most things :) and it’s fair to point that out. But the cowardly lying coward stuff is unnecessary.
   1135. McCoy Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5717204)
Appealing to people's sensibilities is the coward's way out.
   1136. Howie Menckel Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5717206)
Leslie Moonves up next on.... Crossfire
"The CBS Corp. board of directors will investigate allegations of sexual misconduct that are to be raised against CEO Leslie Moonves in a report in the New Yorker expected to be published today. Moonves status as CEO is unchanged and independent members of CBS’ board voiced their “full support” at present for Moonves and the rest of his management team."

"f Moonves were to be forced out at CBS, he would not be easy to replace. One of the industry’s most powerful figures, Moonves is highly regarded for his creative skills and instincts about shows and stars with the potential to yield broad-based hits. As CEO, he also impressed investors by navigating CBS through the digital upheaval of the past decade. He took CBS into the OTT arena with the CBS All Access and Showtime standalone services, and CBS reaped the rewards of licensing its vast library of TV programs to Netflix and other digital platforms."
   1137. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5717207)
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems? Ray is wrong about most things :) and it’s fair to point that out. But the cowardly lying coward stuff is unnecessary.

I haven't said he was lying about it, but how else would you describe his refusal even to acknowledge his "fellate Iran" comment, let alone apologize for it?

Not to mention that Ray's accused so many people of "dishonesty" over the years that it's a miracle those letters on his keyboard are still functional. He's the last person to have any cause for complaint when someone turns the tables on him.
   1138. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5717209)
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems? Ray is wrong about most things :) and it’s fair to point that out. But the cowardly lying coward stuff is unnecessary.

I remember feeling bad for Ray when he ghosted these pages in the run up to the 2016 election, as things looked bleak for his man. No more. He’s a liar who evades direct questions. Words have meaning. He says we’ve cast Cohen as a hero. That’s a lie. And he’ll continue to lie. That’s who he is.
   1139. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5717211)
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems? Ray is wrong about most things :) and it’s fair to point that out. But the cowardly lying coward stuff is unnecessary.


BDC, it's necessary to call out lies when they occur. Ray has a habit of trying to gaslight people on the board. Other people are homophobes for using "cockholster", Ray never said that Trump had a moral obligation to collude, the other posters on the board said that Michael Cohen was a hero, etc.

The only way to deal with a gaslighter is to point out that they are lying and force them to confront their own mistruths. Ray does this so regularly that it cannot be a mistake. He has 100% lost the benefit of the doubt on this.
   1140. zenbitz Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5717214)
my only interest in collusion here is that people are applying standards to Hillary and trump unevenly


It has been explained to you numerous times what the actual difference is.

Trump's campaign is accused of knowingly collaborating with members of the Russian Government and Intelligence agencies.

HRC's campaign is alleged to have paid an American company who hired a British contractor who had Russian connections.

You can blither about laundry all you want, but these are different things.

(SBB can too, but since he's 100% troll him agreeing with you only hurts your argument)
   1141. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5717219)
BDC, #1134:
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems? Ray is wrong about most things :) and it’s fair to point that out. But the cowardly lying coward stuff is unnecessary.


Liar, hack, virtue signaler, malicious, fake, hypocrite, contemptible, revealing, frivolous, ad hominem, not sincere, hater, partisan, irrational TDS, ludicrous, complicit, pure attacks, professed "concern," simply false, mean spirited, pretend you're not guilty, silly, unhinged, completely lost it, mockworthy, preening, phony, dishonest, resorting to slurs, the intent being to hurt the target... Ray is literally everything he sanctimoniously accused others of being during his on-off "homophobe" harangue.

All of the above were his own words, taken right out of his posts. While indignantly pushing a false proposition that his forgotten-but-not-gone Iran insult had already negated. To quote a little more of his own undeviating cockholster calumny, Ray never made an attempt at being truthful. He's a “joke."

If Ray wants to start making it right, terrific. There aren't too many regulars on this board who haven't gotten out ahead of themselves pressing a poor point way too far, and who ended up looking foolish for it, myself most definitely included.

And if Ray doesn't want to start making it right, if he thinks he can duck his head and chug along posting his usual fare about derangement and Hillary's dossier and nothingburgers until enough people lose interest in calling him out of his hiding place? Then he and we will all know what he has chosen to be, even if some among us feel more comfortable NOT using the accurate nouns and adjectives. I genuinely hope Ray does not do that.
   1142. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5717223)
TShipman: Theres’s no reason not to quote my actual words on the “moral obligation” nothing burger,rather than using other words and attaching a different meaning to them. Baravelli was honest enough to quote my actual words.
   1143. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5717227)
TShipman: Theres’s no reason not to quote my actual words rather than using other words and attaching a different meaning to them. Baravelli was honest enough to quote my actual words.

So who wrote these words? Some 400 pound guy sitting at his home in New Jersey?
5313. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2015 at 01:27 PM (#5006872)

You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.
   1144. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5717231)
The only way to deal with a gaslighter is to point out that they are lying and force them to confront their own mistruths.

Nobody takes Ray seriously enough for his gaslighting to have any effect.
   1145. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5717232)

TShipman: Theres’s no reason not to quote my actual words rather than using other words and attaching a different meaning to them. Baravelli was honest enough to quote my actual words.
Nobody attached a different meaning to them.

And there certainly was a reason not to quote them: as I said, a quick google didn't reveal them. So I 100% accurately paraphrased them. That you realize how deranged the words sound now does not mean you get to pretend you didn't say them.
   1146. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5717233)
Here's more actual words from Ray:
I do love how now the lying villain Michael Cohen has suddenly been turned into the truth telling hero Michael Cohen.
Let's check the record, shall we? There's this (810):
Is there anyone here who doesn't think Avenatti and Cohen are both in the Weasel Inner Circle?
And this (604):
Cohen comes across as a weasel for taping his own client.
Ray, either find a citation for someone calling Cohen a "truth telling hero" or admit that you made it up. It's one or the other. This is called accountability. And kindly cease berating others for things you make up.
   1147. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5717248)
Ray, either find a citation for someone calling Cohen a "truth telling hero" or admit that you made it up. It's one or the other. This is called accountability. And kindly cease berating others for things you make up.


I've stayed out of this little squabble, and put Ray on ignore a while ago, because I finally realized it's useless and exhausting to engage him. But God bless you others for fighting the good fight.

Here's the thing. It's always been bear's thing, and it is now also Ray's thing to minimize the transgressions of Trump and others on their side to cartoonish levels, and do the opposite to Trump's opponents. We saw it earlier with Ray handwaving away the Trump team's attempt to gain dirt on Hillary in the form of hacked and stolen data from Russia in exchange for favorable acts towards them should he become President as merely "opposition research." Firing the FBI Director in a clumsy attempt to end the Russia investigation is merely the President firing a subordinate, as if it were no different than firing the White House butler. Etc...

Thus, if someone comments on the Cohen tapes as being possibly quite damaging to Trump, out pops the "Oh, so Cohen is your hero now?" reflexive schtick. It comes as naturally to them as breathing. I don't think they even realize they are doing it.
   1148. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:20 PM (#5717249)
TShipman: Theres’s no reason not to quote my actual words rather than using other words and attaching a different meaning to them. Baravelli was honest enough to quote my actual words.

Nobody attached a different meaning to them.

And there certainly was a reason not to quote them: as I said, a quick google didn't reveal them. So I 100% accurately paraphrased them. That you realize how deranged the words sound now does not mean you get to pretend you didn't say them.


Hilarious. "Don't pretend you didn't say these words that you didn't say."
   1149. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5717251)
my only interest in collusion here is that people are applying standards to Hillary and trump unevenly

It has been explained to you numerous times what the actual difference is.

Trump's campaign is accused of knowingly collaborating with members of the Russian Government and Intelligence agencies.

HRC's campaign is alleged to have paid an American company who hired a British contractor who had Russian connections.

You can blither about laundry all you want, but these are different things.


You've sugar coated what Hillary did there; in any event they're indeed different things, and what Hillary did is far worse.
   1150. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5717252)

Ray, either find a citation for someone calling Cohen a "truth telling hero"
Well, there's Rudy Giuliani: Cohen "is an honest, honorable lawyer."
   1151. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5717253)
Hilarious. "Don't pretend you didn't say these words that you didn't say."

Hmmmmm, did you say these words?
5313. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2015 at 01:27 PM (#5006872)

You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.

You seem to be pretending that you didn't, or maybe your defense is "I didn't say them, though I may have written them."
   1152. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5717254)
Ray, either find a citation for someone calling Cohen a "truth telling hero" or admit that you made it up. It's one or the other. This is called accountability. And kindly cease berating others for things you make up.

I've stayed out of this little squabble,


So have I, since it's one of the most ridiculous squabbles ever squabbled here.

I didn't say anyone called Cohen a truth telling hero, I said they're acting as if he is. What do you do with the statements of truth telling heros? You swallow them whole. That's what much of the left has done with Cohen over the past couple of days. Cohen -- allegedly -- said something that makes Trump look bad. So we're going to believe him. The left is salivating over what Cohen said. (Not literally salivating, MadVillain!)

I am entitled to use the term hero loosely; it's a figure of speech. I didn't say anyone here actually used the word. How ridiculous. So ridiculous, in fact, that I likely won't waste time responding to this little sidebar again.
   1153. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5717255)
Thus, if someone comments on the Cohen tapes as being possibly quite damaging to Trump, out pops the "Oh, so Cohen is your hero now?" reflexive schtick. It comes as naturally to them as breathing.


Judging from the way he so enthusiastically fellates Donald Trump he can probably breathe through his ears.
   1154. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:45 PM (#5717256)
Hilarious. "Don't pretend you didn't say these words that you didn't say."
Hilarious. You said them. Just like you used what you call homophobic slurs.


I didn't say anyone called Cohen a truth telling hero, I said they're acting as if he is.
No, you didn't say that. Bzzt. Try again.
   1155. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:07 AM (#5717258)
Glenn Greenwald

Verified account

@ggreenwald
8h8 hours ago
More Glenn Greenwald Retweeted Mollie
And: if getting dirt about your opponent from foreign officials is immoral or treasonous, why was it OK for DNC representatives to be trolling around Ukraine, working with foreign officials to get dirt on Manafort & Trump because Ukraine favored Hillary? https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446 …
Mollie

Verified account

@MZHemingway
Following Following @MZHemingway
More
I don't have a problem w/ getting dirt on election opponents from foreigners. But if you do, why was it OK for Hillary Clinton to secretly hire a foreign spy to get dirt on her opponent from Kremlin officials, and seed that info into the media and weaponize it in the US gov't?
   1156. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:25 AM (#5717260)

"Hi. I'm a Trumpista. I'm too stupid to tell the difference between an enemy of the United States and a friend of the United States."
   1157. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:28 AM (#5717261)
And then a hero comes along
With the strength to carry on
And you cast your fears aside
And you know you can survive...

Is Michael Cohen ready for the John Dean role: A hero who saves America from Donald Trump?

A trusted lawyer turned on a corrupt president 45 years ago — and changed history. Are we witnessing a repeat?

Heather Digby Parton, Salon

...

But keep in mind that this is TrumpWorld we're talking about, and among those people, you really don't exist unless you're on TV. All this may have more to do with Michael Cohen trying to figure out how he can parlay this situation into a new career in media once this mess is over. There's only one clear way for him to do that: Take the John Dean route and become the man who saved America from Donald Trump. Dean lost his law license and did four months in jail, but he is now considered a hero and a national icon. It's not a bad model.

This idea isn't coming out of thin air. Emily Jane Fox of Vanity Fair reports that Cohen has finally accepted that Trump never had any loyalty to him and that he's on his own. Friends are telling Cohen, Fox writes, that he could change the course of history, sending messages like this: “Please let him know that he could go down in history as the man that saved this country. I think his family would be so proud of him. Even people like me that were disgusted with the things we heard on those audio recordings, would totally forgive him.” She also reports that Cohen has been planning a big media push for some time -- this is just the beginning.

   1158. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:29 AM (#5717262)
I didn't say anyone called Cohen a truth telling hero, I said they're acting as if he is. What do you do with the statements of truth telling heros? You swallow them whole. That's what much of the left has done with Cohen over the past couple of days. Cohen -- allegedly -- said something that makes Trump look bad. So we're going to believe him. The left is salivating over what Cohen said. (Not literally salivating, MadVillain!)

I am entitled to use the term hero loosely; it's a figure of speech. I didn't say anyone here actually used the word. How ridiculous. So ridiculous, in fact, that I likely won't waste time responding to this little sidebar again.
Thank you, Ray, for a timely and reasonable alternate interpretation of your words. A quick check of "michael cohen hero" leads to articles like this one and this one, both contain skepticism. Nothing has been "swallowed whole", unless you have some other citations. Googling "Michael Cohen credibility" also seems to result in a lot more questions than praise. But fine, we'll take your clarification at face value for now.

What is your explanation for your repeated accusations that board members here are "homophobic" for employing oral sex imagery to describe the Putin/Trump relationship, while you employ oral sex imagery to describe the relationship between the left and Iran? Are you homophobic? That is the only logical conclusion.
   1159. homerwannabee Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:37 AM (#5717263)
As someone who leans left, I am still bleh about the whole Russia scandal, and whole sex scandal. Can anyone make a convincing case that Donald Trump should be impeached based on the evidence we have seen so far? It seems like a very weak case at the moment.
   1160. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:38 AM (#5717264)
"Hi. I'm a Trumpista. I'm too stupid to tell the difference between an enemy of the United States and a friend of the United States."


The Steele dossier cites people connected with the Russian government as sources. Senior Russian Foreign Ministry
figure (Source A). Former top level Russian intel officer still active inside the Kremlin (Source B).

But I know, I know; Hillary's campaign didn't meet with these Russians. Instead they paid someone to pay someone to meet with them.

It's totally ok to allow people connected with enemy governments to Influence Our Election if you construct artificial layers of separation between them.
   1161. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:45 AM (#5717266)
It's a long road
When you face the world alone
No one reaches out a hand
For you to hold...

“HE COULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE MAN THAT SAVED THIS COUNTRY”: FREED FROM TRUMP, MICHAEL COHEN SEES A NEW IDENTITY: NATIONAL HERO
As Cohen is further distanced from the president, friends have been encouraging him to change his narrative. “Washington is actively pushing him away,” a person close to Cohen says. “At the same time, he has all these people telling him that he could change the course of the midterms, or 2020.”

BY EMILY JANE FOX
JUNE 28, 2018 7:51 PM
   1162. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:51 AM (#5717267)
Ray, #1152:
I am entitled to use the term hero loosely; it's a figure of speech.

But cockholster means that Vladimir Putin literally thrusts his real-life penis in and out of a compliant Donald Trump's actual open mouth because being gay is vile, according to the true beliefs of clinically deranged people who hate.

Meanwhile, Ray saying "liberals fellate Iran" is totally different because...

Like Donald Trump, Ray should be taken neither seriously nor literally.

Like Donald Trump, Ray should be taken neither seriously nor literally.

Like Donald Trump, Ray should be taken neither seriously nor literally.
   1163. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:05 AM (#5717270)
Did you read the Salon and Vanity Fair pieces, Ray? Headlines aside, both profusely sprinkle "could" throughout their articles. Salon "would never compare John Dean to Donald Trump's former attorney, Michael Cohen, in terms of legal skill or intellect". Your implication that "the left" is "swallowing whole" a hero narrative is... opinion at best.

Nevertheless, a reasonable opinion, there are certainly those would see Cohen that way. Believing that it's a rampant salivation exercise by a high percentage of people is, however, an unreasonable opinion. Is "swallow whole" another homophobic reference of yours, by the way? In the absence of another interpretation, we must assume so.
   1164. tshipman Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:55 AM (#5717276)
Can anyone make a convincing case that Donald Trump should be impeached based on the evidence we have seen so far? It seems like a very weak case at the moment.


No, and that's why we're waiting for Mueller to come back.

Luckily, we don't have to rely on just what's in the public sphere.
   1165. . Posted: July 28, 2018 at 07:14 AM (#5717281)
WRT patent lawyers, some of them, I assume, are good people.

It's just that they've never been inside a courtroom.


You mean like ambulance chasers?
   1166. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 28, 2018 at 07:19 AM (#5717282)
I wouldn't go as far as to call Cohen a hero, but if the information he provides damages Trump in any way, he deserves credit. The more damage, the more credit.

The only way I'd elevate Cohen to hero status is if his info leads to Trump and select members of his cabinet and advisers are hanged by their ankles from a tree on the WH lawn.
   1167. . Posted: July 28, 2018 at 07:20 AM (#5717283)
I said "every campaign" should take a meeting where valuable and truthful information about their opponent is being offered, even if it's being offered by an enemy foreign government. I then gave the example of the Russian government offering Hillary truthful evidence that Trump had sexually assaulted 12 women.

I stand by that.


There's no reason not to, as it's entirely true.
   1168. . Posted: July 28, 2018 at 07:26 AM (#5717284)
But if you're feeling brave and sure, Ray, how about accounting for your "everyone's a contemptible homophobe but me" year of shameless bullshit?


I already did it. The fact that you're obsessively and bizarrely declaring ersatz victory over it (*) is neither here nor there. It's how you roll. Nobody but nobody obsessively and bizarrely declares ersatz victory better than you. And that's quite the high honor given the high bar established around here.

(*) Over and over and over and over and over again. Your rate of declaration has somehow managed to top even the rate at which Andy, who's ignoring me, tells everyone he's ignoring me.



   1169. . Posted: July 28, 2018 at 07:34 AM (#5717286)
We saw it earlier with Ray handwaving away the Trump team's attempt to gain dirt on Hillary in the form of hacked and stolen data from Russia in exchange for favorable acts towards them should he become President


No, this is a lie. No one told Trump, Jr. they were going to provide "hacked and stolen data from Russia" or anything close. You and yours get pushback because you lie about fundamental facts like this routinely. It's no more complicated than that.

And the fact that you tell yourselves lies like these is the reason you can't correctly compare Trump's people's conduct with the dossier.
   1170. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 08:02 AM (#5717287)
I said "every campaign" should take a meeting where valuable and truthful information about their opponent is being offered, even if it's being offered by an enemy foreign government


Sounds like the sort of principlel that should be codified in law to prevent any innocent misunderstandings.
   1171. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 28, 2018 at 08:27 AM (#5717289)
I’ve changed my 17 month old son’s name to Michael from Comey as Michael Cohen is a truth telling hero. My oldest son’s name will remain David Frum Bill Kristol because those are the great leaders of the resistance. Also I’m homophobic and you all should be fellating each other because that image makes me laugh contemptuously. This post will be searchable for Ray to cite.
   1172. dlf Posted: July 28, 2018 at 08:29 AM (#5717290)
Can I suggest that everybody stop with the ad hominems?


But BDC, if we get rid of the ad hominems, the OTP thread will wither to nothing which anyone who wasn't such a fair weathered - nay airconditioning loving - fan would realize. (See I too can do my part to keep it going albeit not nearly as well as many of our fellow posters.)

...

A small bit of substance for the weekend crowd. FHFA Director Mel Watt has been caught up in the #metoo movement. Apparently a subordinate has filed an EEOC charge alleging that she failed to get a pay raise after the Director mentioned an attraction between the two and at a different time suggested kissing her ankle tattoo. Watt is a former D Congressman who heads this executive agency on a term-of-years appointment rather than at the will of the sitting President, a structure which the 5th Circuit just recently found to be unconstitutional.
   1173. BDC Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:05 AM (#5717292)
But BDC, if we get rid of the ad hominems, the OTP thread will wither to nothing which anyone who wasn't such a fair weathered - nay airconditioning loving - fan would realize. (See I too can do my part to keep it going albeit not nearly as well as many of our fellow posters.)


But see, I love that stuff. It would only annoy me if the stadium vote had failed. As it is, I'm laughing all the way to the box seats in the new BDC Dome :-D

And Ray may love it too; at least, the more people get into slagging him, the more he seems to come back with the defenses of Trump and his newly-found gay-rights theme. I have no idea.

People generally make good points about confronting trollery, and I am not going to get my nose out of joint about it. Just making a mild suggestion. Carry on!
   1174. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5717293)
Can anyone make a convincing case that Donald Trump should be impeached based on the evidence we have seen so far?

"Convincing" is a subjective term. But I do think we should be bothered by a combination of two facts:

1. Trump and his associates have had to resort to paying hush money to various individuals. For various legal reasons his associates have engaged in some circuitous schemes to transfer funds to these individuals. That is to say, Trump's own defenders view him as a compromised political figure. He has been blackmailed in the past, so it's possible, maybe likely, that he will be blackmailed in the future.

2. Some entities do not place much value on a bit of extra money, which essentially leads us to a Senator Geary scenario. The Russians have an active intelligence apparatus, and they have a long, well-established relationship with Trump. Trump is, to put it politely, servile around Putin, which leads to obvious questions. Other entities could have, or could be pursuing, similar dirt on Trump. This could include China, North Korea, organized crime, Facebook, or various other actors that seek to control the US federal government.

The Russian collusion case doesn't add much in my view. We have learned that the Trump family is so reckless and so dissolute that they will accept an invitation from apparent Russian agents to participate in a scheme that is as brazenly unprincipled and unrestrained as "kill moose and squirrel." Nobody seems to have recognized that they really should call the FBI when somebody like this shows up at their door. But this seems insignificant to me compared to #1.

To be clear, the fact that Trump had extramarital relations is NOT in itself the problem. The problem is the lengths to which he will go to cover-up his behavior. That's essentially what got Clinton impeached.
   1175. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5717296)
No, and that's why we're waiting for Mueller to come back.


Right. If we all had the means and access to all the info Mueller has, we'd probably have an affirmative answer. Every allegation that the Dancing Monkeys poo-poo can't be just coincidental. The odds would be longer than hitting the powerball, twice in a row.
   1176. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5717297)
The Russian collusion case doesn't add much in my view.


What if the rumor that Trump owes millions of dollars to the Russians is true? What if Putin facilitated those loans?

I'm concerned with the Russians sabotaging our elections, and more concerned that Trump is beholden to Putin.
   1177. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5717305)
The only way I'd elevate Cohen to hero status is if his info leads to Trump and select members of his cabinet and advisers are hanged by their ankles from a tree on the WH lawn.

I'd set the bar about 5' higher.** They'd have to be hanged by their necks over a pack of hungry wolves, who could then feed on their remains. That'd be partial payment for what they've done to the country.

** Or about 4' in the case of Sessions
   1178. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5717306)
“HE COULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE MAN THAT SAVED THIS COUNTRY”: FREED FROM TRUMP, MICHAEL COHEN SEES A NEW IDENTITY: NATIONAL HERO
As Cohen is further distanced from the president, friends have been encouraging him to change his narrative. “Washington is actively pushing him away,” a person close to Cohen says. “At the same time, he has all these people telling him that he could change the course of the midterms, or 2020.”

BY EMILY JANE FOX
JUNE 28, 2018 7:51 PM


Here's that quote in context, which FTR was made by an anonymous person passing a message to him, not by the author of the article:
Earlier this week, however, a woman chased him down the street, shouting at him that he could be a hero if he cooperates with the government and brings President Trump down. Last week, another person attempted to get a message to Cohen, saying, “Please let him know that he could go down in history as the man that saved this country. I think his family would be so proud of him. Even people like me that were disgusted with the things we heard on those audio recordings, would totally forgive him.”

But maybe that person was....the TDS Caucus of BTF!
   1179. Greg K Posted: July 28, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5717308)
I'd set the bar about 5' higher.** They'd have to be hanged by their necks over a pack of hungry wolves, who could then feed on their remains. That'd be partial payment for what they've done to the country.

** Or about 4' in the case of Sessions

I don't know, this crosses a line for me. Making fun of a man's height is just uncivil.
   1180. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 28, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5717316)
It's ok though, he's an elf, not a man.
   1181. zenbitz Posted: July 28, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5717321)
You've sugar coated what Hillary did there; in any event they're indeed different things, and what Hillary did is far worse.


Because I am an honorable guy I will concede the following: It is *possible* that what Hillary did was"worse"*. However, that assumes facts that are not yet in evidence. I don't think the Trump campaign collusion case is closed, so it's hard to say what did and did not happen (at least according to what the Mueller intends to prove).

But I know, I know; Hillary's campaign didn't meet with these Russians. Instead they paid someone to pay someone to meet with them.


They also (inconveniently for your argument) didn't actually USE the intel they collected during the campaign. Now *maybe* those Russian sources were tainted (i.e, serving Putin's interest) and *maybe* the campaign knew about them before the fact and *maybe* they desperately tried to get news outlets to publish the findings of the "Dossier" during the campaign, but there is not much hard evidence of this. Similarly, there is not much hard evidence** that the Trump campaign provided quid-pro-quo to Russian sources.


* As a side note - who gets to determine which "alleged crime" is worse anyway? I mean, lets agree on some objective measure of worse.

Finally - as stated multiple times by lefties here - if the Clinton campaign committed any crimes or improprieties, by all means investigate them! Prove your case! But it is EXTREMELY compelling that the GOP congress has seen fit to commission an investigation of only one campaign (the GOP one) and NOT the other. Why would they do that if the consensus was that "what Hillary did was worse"?



** revealed yet, as the investigation is still ongoing.
   1182. zenbitz Posted: July 28, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5717322)
As for Cohen's heroism - Ray you need to be more clear that when you say "you" treat him as a Hero you are referring to liberal snot rag articles that none of actually read or even agree with.
   1183. BDC Posted: July 28, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5717326)
Earlier this week, however, a woman chased him down the street


Another thing that must happen to Michael Cohen frequently. Hell, if I bumped into Michael Cohen leaving the subway, I'd chase him down the street till I was sure I still had my wallet.
   1184. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5717329)
The only way I'd elevate Cohen to hero status is if his info leads to Trump and select members of his cabinet and advisers are hanged by their ankles from a tree on the WH lawn.

I'd set the bar about 5' higher.** They'd have to be hanged by their necks over a pack of hungry wolves, who could then feed on their remains. That'd be partial payment for what they've done to the country.

** Or about 4' in the case of Sessions


I don't know, this crosses a line for me. Making fun of a man's height is just uncivil.


I'm assuming you're just mocking Ray's phony "homophobia" trolling, but if I'd written 5' higher the noose would be somewhere above his neck, and wouldn't get the job done.

But as a compromise, I'd be willing to see him electrocuted in a high chair. Fair enough?
   1185. dlf Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5717335)
People generally make good points about confronting trollery, and I am not going to get my nose out of joint about it. Just making a mild suggestion. Carry on!


Confronting trolls doesn't require ad hominem attacks, but having others do so does make things easier for me: I get to scroll past both the efforts at trolling and the ad hominem substance-less responses thus reducing brain cells required to process what happens here and narrowing what I care to respond to. So do indeed carry on.

the more people get into slagging [any troll], the more he seems to come back with .../quote]

Well, yeah, that is the point of being a troll: say stupid things to get a rise from another and never, ever, ever actually engage in a substantive discussion without moving the goalposts time after time. LOL. Concession accepted. I'm a big hearted guy so I do find it within myself to have pity for those that feel the need to fill the emptiness of their lives this way, but I don't need to engage in their play.
   1186. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5717336)
Canadian woman gives birth in US, gets $1 million hospital bill

I’m proud to be an American
Because at least I know I’m free
   1187. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5717338)
S-B-B, #1168:
But if you're feeling brave and sure, Ray, how about accounting for your "everyone's a contemptible homophobe but me" year of shameless bullshit?

I already did it. The fact that you're obsessively and bizarrely declaring ersatz victory over it (*) is neither here nor there. It's how you roll. Nobody but nobody obsessively and bizarrely declares ersatz victory better than you. And that's quite the high honor given the high bar established around here.
(*) Over and over and over and over and over again. Your rate of declaration has somehow managed to top even the rate at which Andy, who's ignoring me, tells everyone he's ignoring me.


I know this will rock your entire sense of trollish self-worth, Mr. Concession Accepted Concession Accepted, but Ray's dishonor doesn't auto-transmute into someone else's triumph.

Sorry that you're feeling left out. "I spent the same year insincerely parroting the same shameless bullshit despite my own identically hypocritical blow job insult... so why isn't everybody paying the same attention to me?" Maybe the difference is because some of us think that Ray is better than his shittiest posts.

   1188. Count Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5717340)
He can be impeached for obstruction of justice of the Russia and Flynn investigations (firing Comey, trying to obstruct Flynn investigation, and the pattern of behavior since, including berating and threatening potential witnesses). He also continues colluding with Russia; he supported Russia's interference and rewarded them for it and wants them to do it again. Whether the collusion piece is impeachable probably relies on learning more about exactly what happened during the 2016 campaign, but in reality we all know he has colluded and is continuing to do it. And the obstruction is related to the collusion.

I don't think paying hush money is or should be impeachable, but it should be a big scandal and oddly isn't just because everyone's opinion of Trump is so low already.
   1189. . Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5717342)
Sorry that you're feeling left out. "I spent the same year insincerely parroting the same shameless bullshit despite my own identically hypocritical blow job insult... so why isn't everybody paying the same attention to me?" that you're feeling left out.


Yeah, no one here ever pays attention to me.

/eyeroll.

Maybe the difference is because some of us think that Ray is better than his shittiest posts.


Declaring ersatz victory? What declaring ersatz victory? (*)

Like I said, nobody but nobody does it more obsessively than you.

(*) Hint: His post wasn't "shitty." There's nothing remotely "shitty" about the pallid metaphor, "fellate Iran." And there's nothing "shitty" about noting the homophobia in the Trump as cockholster motif -- which is why Ray was able to post several articles by mainstream people saying exactly that. Your conclusion that Ray's posts in this area were "shitty" is your personal unilateral declaration.(**) Nothing more.

(**) Which you've taken to obsessive lengths.

   1190. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5717343)
Canadian woman gives birth in US, gets $1 million hospital bill

Just reading that headline made me think "You have to be dumb to go to the US without proper travel insurance." Then I read that she DID have travel insurance.
Now I'm flip-flopping over whether Blue Cross is evil because they didn't inform her when she got the insurance that it wouldn't cover her pregnancy, or whether she's at fault for not asking them specifically if her pregnancy was covered.

And the headline doesn't explain that it wasn't just a simple child birth, but it involved six weeks of bed rest for her and two months in ICU for the preemie baby. The fact that it's $1million with those expenses is not that unusual (for the US).

That said, shitty system across the board.
   1191. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5717347)
You've sugar coated what Hillary did there; in any event they're indeed different things, and what Hillary did is far worse.
Uh huh. Also, when Trump sexually molested women (by his own admission!), why, the fact that Bill Clinton had affairs means that Hillary is far worse. And the fact that Trump said that some neo-Nazis were fine people, but Hillary called some of Trump's supporters deplorable so that means that Hillary is far worse. And Trump actually defrauded tens of thousands of consumers, but Hillary acknowledged that her policies meant that some coal miners would lose their jobs, so Hillary is far worse.

But I know, I know; Hillary's campaign didn't meet with these Russians. Instead they paid someone to pay someone to meet with them.
Nope. Hillary paid an American company to gather information. There's no evidence that she had the foggiest idea who Christopher Steele was or what he was doing or who he was talking to. She did not pay anyone to pay anyone to meet with any Russians. And while some of Steele's sources worked for the Russian government, there's no evidence any of them were speaking for or on behalf of the Kremlin.

But you know all this already, and you're just pretending you don't.
   1192. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5717348)
Canadian woman gives birth in US, gets $1 million hospital bill
Of course, any sane person knows that -- as badly as the government has screwed up American healthcare -- nobody gets charged $1M for childbirth. So, checking... yep. It was not $1M for childbirth. The kid was born very premature, and: "She stayed on bed rest in the hospital for six weeks and her child, born premature, was placed in intensive care for two months."

EDIT: Coke to RTG.
   1193. BDC Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5717349)
I'm flip-flopping over whether Blue Cross is evil because they didn't inform her when she got the insurance that it wouldn't cover her pregnancy, or whether she's at fault for not asking them specifically if her pregnancy was covered


Probably she went to the hospital, was told that everything would be covered by Blue Cross, and then only later come to find that they'd refuse payment. Meanwhile there she is, figuring she or her baby or both are fixing to die without this care, and perhaps not in the keenest form to investigate all the insurance details, and by the time she runs up a $950K bill, she's out of luck.
   1194. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5717350)
by the time she runs up a $950K bill, she's out of luck.

won't it be the hospital that is out of luck?

reminds me of that old line about how if you owe the bank $5,000, you have a problem.
if you owe the bank $50,000 - the bank has a problem.
   1195. BDC Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5717351)
won't it be the hospital that is out of luck?

I guess you're right. For the patient, the only downside is that she can never go back to Hawaii. The upside is that her kid can become President of the United States.
   1196. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5717355)
Trump is, to put it politely, servile around Putin . . .

Trump has sent lethal aid to Ukraine, bombed Putin's Syrian ally, destroyed a convoy of Russian mercenaries attacking a U.S. facility, repeatedly twisted the arms of our NATO allies to get them to increase their defense spending, and strongly opposed Germany's new reliance on Russia for its energy needs. Putin can't take much more of that sort of "servility".
   1197. Greg K Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5717357)
I'm assuming you're just mocking Ray's phony "homophobia" trolling, but if I'd written 5' higher the noose would be somewhere above his neck, and wouldn't get the job done.

But as a compromise, I'd be willing to see him electrocuted in a high chair. Fair enough?

I was more poking fun at myself and my obsession with civility.

As if killing political opponents is a-ok in my books, as long as we're polite about it.

Self-parody is the finest form of comedy! Especially if your only target audience is yourself.
   1198. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5717359)
They also (inconveniently for your argument) didn't actually USE the intel they collected during the campaign. Now *maybe* those Russian sources were tainted (i.e, serving Putin's interest) and *maybe* the campaign knew about them before the fact and *maybe* they desperately tried to get news outlets to publish the findings of the "Dossier" during the campaign, but there is not much hard evidence of this.

That is untrue. Steele himself has said that he peddled his "dossier" to numerous media outlets, although he was mostly unsuccessful in getting anyone (other than David Corn) to publish his completely unverified claims before the election. Those trying to make something of Hillary's campaign not disseminating the material itself are missing the point - the material would have even less credibility if it had been known that it was a Hillary/DNC-financed operation, which accounts for the longstanding effort to obscure that information.
   1199. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5717362)
It's ok though, he's an elf, not a man.

Which, honestly, might not be so bad.
   1200. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 28, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5717363)
As if killing political opponents is a-ok in my books, as long as we're polite about it.


There's no need to require it be "polite."
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