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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   301. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5715128)
Mariia Butina was ####### longtime NRA/GOP politico Paul Erickson - who just happens to have a loooonnnngggg history with the ACU, Stephen Moore, Breitbart, and a whole host of orgs that just happen to Trump central.

There's a name for this (and #296) - guilt by association. None of the folks Zonk mentioned are alleged to have done anything wrong, and even Zonk has nothing but his usual speculative innuendo.
   302. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5715131)
There's a name for this (and #296) - guilt by association. None of the folks Zonk mentioned are alleged to have done anything wrong, and even Zonk has nothing but his usual speculative innuendo.


Which is why I said


It's entirely possible... maybe even likely... that they were just idiots who got duped. Sex certainly has a long history as an espionage tool.

However, I'm sure even Clapper would agree that - even if it proves to be quite embarrassing to his party - the details and truth of the imbroglio need to come out.


I mean, I said it in the very post you quoted.

Did you just rage quit stop reading?

Does my repeating it now work for you to finish reading?
   303. perros Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5715132)
She's a tough broad. Throws a left hook like a guy.


Well, I'm not dumb, but I can't understand why she walk like a woman and talk like a man.
   304. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5715135)
And Clapper - I think what you mean is criminal... not "wrong".

I mean, if someone feigns romantic interest and ##### me in order to get access, intelligence, ingratiation, or influence - it's entirely possible I haven't done anything criminal.

But - I submit - I have still done something wrong on some level. Even if that level is just naivete that ultimately leads to someone doing something else wrong - criminal - without my direct knowledge.

As I said... it certainly warrants investigation - and as you like to say - is worth watching.
   305. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5715140)
I always read "The Yankee Clapper" in John Sterling's voice. I like it.

I'm just glad you didn't drag Mel Allen into this.
   306. BrianBrianson Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5715144)
How about Dutch treat or Dutch courage?


Both get my Irish up.
   307. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5715146)
Things just bleed into each other, don't they?

“This is becoming more and more like a Soviet-type of economy here: Commissars deciding who’s going to be granted waivers, commissars in the administration figuring out how they’re going to sprinkle around benefits,” said Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.). “I’m very exasperated. This is serious.”

“Taxpayers are going to be asked to initial checks to farmers in lieu of having a trade policy that actually opens and expands more markets. There isn’t anything about this that anybody should like,” said Sen. John Thune of South Dakota, the No. 3 GOP leader. He suggested the new spending might need to be offset by cuts in other funding areas.
   308. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5715147)
Notice there aren't anymore ballplayers called "Dummy," "Gimpy," "Heinie" or "Swede?"

And not too many pool players are called "Fat Joe", "Gimp", "Crip", or "Half Man" any more.
   309. Shredder Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5715148)
The U.S. Agriculture Department on Tuesday plans to announce a $12 billion package of emergency aid for farmers caught in the midst of President Trump’s escalating trade war, two people briefed on the plan said, the latest sign that growing tensions between the United States and other countries will not end soon. …
Seems like we could have saved a lot of trouble by just giving the $12 billion to the steel and aluminum industry to begin with.
   310. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5715149)
Ray, #182:
Gonfalon, #177, you’ve completely lost it. The post from May of mine that you quote •supports• my thesis completely, that this — the usage of “clock holster” on this board — is not an attempt at humor. You even bolded the portion that drives that point home.


"What the president Ray was really saying was..."

Or more straightforwardly, from #288: "Just remember what you’re seeing and what you're reading is not what’s happening," Trump said.



Mouse, #204:
Clapper's silly poll notwithstanding I must admit I like how things are trending ... The House Tilts Toward the Democrats


Clapper's posted poll isn't silly at all. Never underestimate the ratio of reason to emotion at voting time. There's an even greater margin of error in tracking feelings, but their impact is very real. And of course a lot of regular polls are emotion-based (e.g. approval/disapproval).




MF Charlie, #205:
That was your big mouth typing that, Ray.
That must be a tough trick! I'd like to see that, GB.


Maybe Ray should try repeatedly slamming his mouth and nose and chin into the keyboard, and posting the result. It certainly couldn't come out worse than he's been doing lately.




Mouse, #220:
If the conservatives didn't have the Clintons to kick around any more they will ... well I am not sure I will live long enough to ever know.


LOCK CHARLOTTE AND AIDAN MEZVINSKY UP!




Jolly Old Andy, #305:
I always read "The Yankee Clapper" in John Sterling's voice. I like it.
I'm just glad you didn't drag Mel Allen into this.


"Whatabout that!"
   311. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5715152)
Seems like we could have saved a lot of trouble by just giving the $12 billion to the steel and aluminum industry to begin with.


If my math and numbers are correct - for 12 billion dollars, you could actually just cut a check for $14,000 to every steelworker in the country.
   312. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5715155)
But that would be communism. What you do is give the money to the OWNERS of the steel mills, and they'll make sure the steelworkers get what they deserve.
   313. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5715158)
Seems like we could have saved a lot of trouble by just giving the $12 billion to the steel and aluminum industry to begin with.


As I said...digging holes and filling them up again.
   314. BrianBrianson Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5715160)
If my math and numbers are correct - for 12 billion dollars, you could actually just cut a check for $14,000 to every steelworker in the country.


Or, you know, a single 12 billion dollar check to the largest steel company ;)

Edit: Damn, too slow.
   315. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5715164)
But that would be communism. What you do is give the money to the OWNERS of the steel mills, and they'll make sure the steelworkers get what they deserve.


Actually, I think it's more like half-assed Stalinism.... since we're basically giving money to a sector impacted by a dumb idea that actually has - at best - had no positive effect on the industry the dumbass policy was supposed to help in the first place.

I guess that's the next round of bailouts.
   316. zenbitz Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5715170)
More and more people are going to get screwed going forward, and if you make it a habit to dismiss them as Republicans, guess what? They will become Republicans, or worse, respond to the first demagogue who comes by after you walk away and affirms, "Yes, you wuz screwed!" by whatever fill in the blank other best fits the demagogue's purpose.

For some reason, people imagine some static universe in which people are permanently red or blue, or imagine the non-voting majority will come around if they are told they are stupid for not voting for a corporate shill 'cos that bastard on the otherside is a bumblefuck dipsh-t.


Well I am not really sure what you expect the left to actually DO here. Some people just don't respond to reason (at least w.r.t. their economic interests) - otherwise none of "those people" would ever vote for Trump. The Democratic Party approach is to appeal by reason to the center/undecided and appeal by emotion (to drive turnout) to the left. The real left (not "Nancy Pelosi Left") sure as shooting isn't going to vote GOP so really you are just trying to get them to the polls and convince them not to vote Green or Bernie or whatever.

You can't really expect the Democrats to make an EMOTIONAL appeal to working class white people -- certainly not while (if I read your politics) they actually lurch leftward! You think they are all of a sudden going to support socialism? BY NAME (i.e, - emotion)?

It is to laugh. The squishy center of this country holds a huge chunk of power in terms of wealth and potential votes. Maybe not as much as the upper 0.1% but significant power. You can't actually be suggesting that the way to defeat soulless "corporate shills" is to try to unite the left and right working class wings?

   317. zenbitz Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5715173)
So, Trump - funny story - it turns out that wealth redistribution works BETTER if you don't short the economy while doing it.
   318. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5715175)
As I said... it certainly warrants investigation . . .

Ma. Butina's alleged attempts at espionage have been investigated, and that may continue, but beyond that, there's nothing suggesting any of her social contacts have done anything that would warrant investigation, not withstanding the weaselly effort here to suggest being in the same room with her at a widely-attended public event is somehow suspicious.
   319. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5715177)
being in the same room with her at a widely-attended public event


Same room, same bed...same thing really.
   320. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5715180)
Ma. Butina's alleged attempts at espionage have been investigated, and that may continue, but beyond that, there's nothing suggesting any of her social contacts have done anything that would warrant investigation, not withstanding the weaselly effort here to suggest being in the same room with her at a widely-attended public event is somehow suspicious.


Anything except providing the bedroom backdoor to the top, you mean.

For the record, if Yankee Clapper is actually Paul Erickson - it needs to be noted that I had no knowledge of this. It's purely an accident - and one, I might add - entirely of his own making by choosing this particular hill to die on.

As such - sans knowledge or even suspicion - this does not constitute doxxing.
   321. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5715182)
Come on now, who among us hasn't set up a secret back channel to filter Russian oligarch money through the NRA to a presidential campaign? In my reckless youth, I did something similar with Rock the Vote and Alan Keyes.
   322. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5715185)
Donald Trump:
I’m very concerned that Russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming Election. Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats. They definitely don’t want Trump!
Mark Harris:
DEAR DIARY TODAY I LEARNED ABOUT REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY!
   323. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5715193)
How about Dutch treat or Dutch courage?

How could you not mention Dutch oven?
   324. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5715194)
As such - sans knowledge or even suspicion - this does not constitute doxxing.


Did I imagine that one of the usual cast of yokels here claimed posting a photo of someone's gravestone was doxxing?
   325. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5715199)
The invitation-only gathering brought together about 250 Democratic insiders from key swing states. Third Way unveiled the results of focus groups and polling that it says shows Americans are more receptive to an economic message built on "opportunity" rather than the left's message about inequality.

"Once again, the time has come to mend, but not end, capitalism for a new era," said Third Way President Jon Cowan

“Status quo! Status quo! Status quo!”
   326. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5715200)
They definitely don’t want Trump!


I assume he'll amend that to "They definitely don't not want Trump."
   327. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5715201)
Did I imagine that one of the usual cast of yokels here claimed posting a photo of someone's gravestone was doxxing?


Well, it depends how long OTP membership stays active after exile...

I'm fairly sure you're talking about the time Juannity took umbrage to someone posting the photo/location of Cokebart's grave.
   328. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5715213)
@alex_mallin:
NEW: The VFW has issued a statement saying it is "disappointed" with audience members who booed and heckled members of the press during the president's speech today
   329. perros Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5715214)
I'm suggesting providing for the commonwealth through programs and policies the majority can and do support -- expand entitlement payments to redistrtibute wealth. It's been done before, and it can be done again. Look at the top tax brackets in the 50's.

If we can bail out the wealthy at every turn, while throwing away trillions through the pentagon, there's money to support the common good -- medicine, education, meaningful work, etc.

I note there's not much discussion of climate change anymore, let alone any questioning of the premises of a worldwide war on terror, so yeah, it's probably so much spitting into the wind.
   330. Howie Menckel Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5715220)
this DailyOscarWilde Twitter account might appeal to some

Oscar Wilde
‏@DailyOscarWilde
2h2 hours ago

There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating: people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing

...............

"I'm suggesting providing for the commonwealth through programs and policies the majority can and do support -- expand entitlement payments to redistribute wealth. It's been done before, and it can be done again. Look at the top tax brackets in the 50's."

aren't we recognizing this as inevitable? what percentage of Americans current age 40-65 have close to enough money saved for retirement? the number of pensions is dwindling, and the culture is such that "saving for a rainy day" went out of style years ago.

I realize there is a primal conservative reluctance to see this change happen, but how can it not? the tribe has spoken - even if unwittingly.

it will be an interesting sea change: after decades of the 1 percenters keeping virtually all of the economy's gains for themselves, their best hope would have been that the middle class elected to save just enough money to get by in retirement.

that has gotten increasingly difficult - but at the same time the desire isn't there, either, for many people. so Congress inevitably will wind up repatriating a lot of those rich gains in the form of higher tax rates for the uber-rich, as Jess notes.

if this had been a deliberate plan by the middle class, I would admire its genius. in the end, it will have worked.
:)
   331. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5715221)
Just remember what you’re seeing and what you're reading is not what’s happening,


I’m very concerned that Russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming Election. Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats. They definitely don’t want Trump!


Trump is straight up gaslighting the American people at this point.

I guess if the "Blue Wave" hits the mid-term elections, then he has his excuse all laid out and ready to go.

If Putin's boys are smart they'll simply attempt some clumsy probes at the American election system on that night, leave behind some obvious bread crumbs to follow back, and then Trump can even declare that the election WAS tampered with in some way.

That's how Putin could sow chaos in America without actually having to do anything big at this point.
   332. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5715228)
I love how people who have never met me can confidently make assumptions about me.


What assumption, Howie? Please point to any other instance here where you've complained about "the man" waging "class warfare".

I'll wait.

And while I do, the assumption I make about you is that you're mostly a fence sitter who sometimes takes veiled swipes at the left.
   333. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5715229)
You know what's sad, Joe? When somebody gains a measure of political consciousness through their personal experience, yet they are poo-pooed because they were in the dark previously.


Shut up, hippie, even though that was nice and condescending toward "previously in the dark" Howie.
   334. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5715230)
If Putin's boys are smart they'll simply attempt some clumsy probes at the American election system on that night, leave behind some obvious bread crumbs to follow back, and then Trump can even declare that the election WAS tampered with in some way.

That's how Putin could sow chaos in America without actually having to do anything big at this point.


Yea it's not particularly hard to see it unfolding much like you've described.
   335. perros Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5715233)
   336. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5715236)
can't argue with this:


Ed Overbeek



@EdOverbeek
11m11 minutes ago
More
Trump’s farmer bailout is intended to placate his marks and keep his con going. But it’s also the Tea Party dream - a government safety net, but intended just for “folks like us”. Socialism, but for white nationalists. Let’s call it nationalist socialism.
   337. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5715237)
I clicked on your first link, hippie, and it was pretty much a non sequitur waste of time. Kind of like you. Never again.

edit..and your second link goes nowhere. Also kind of like you.
   338. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5715240)
If Putin's boys are smart they'll simply attempt some clumsy probes at the American election system on that night, leave behind some obvious bread crumbs to follow back, and then Trump Democrats can even declare that the election WAS tampered with in some way.

That's how Putin could sow chaos in America without actually having to do anything big at this point.

That seems to be what may have happened. If "Putin's boys" could figure it out in 2018, they may have known it in 2016, too, even without prompting from BBTF-OTP.
   339. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5715244)
#338: Я резинка, ты клей.
   340. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5715246)
A peace offering to Davos and Perros...

This is just hilarious.

Indeed, the original, actual piece that landed Kruta on Fox & Friends almost reads like parody.

But then Ocasio-Cortez spoke, followed by Bush, and I saw something truly terrifying. I saw just how easy it would be, were I less involved and less certain of our nation’s founding and its history, to fall for the populist lines they were shouting from that stage.

I saw how easy it would be, as a parent, to accept the idea that my children deserve healthcare and education.
I saw how easy it would be, as someone who has struggled to make ends meet, to accept the idea that a “living wage” was a human right.
Above all, I saw how easy it would be to accept the notion that it was the government’s job to make sure that those things were provided.

I watched as both Ocasio-Cortez and Bush deftly chopped America up into demographics, pointed out how those demographics had been victimized under the current system, and then promised to be the voice for those demographics. The movement, Ocasio-Cortez shouted, “knows no zip code. It knows no state. It knows no race. It knows no gender. It knows no documented status.”


Setting aside the 'translation' Kruta provided - i.e., just accepting it as accurate - the only thing that I object as one of those horrid center-lefties is it was the government’s job to make sure.

I think it is the government's job to alleviate, make possible, support, even aggressively support these things. I support progressive taxation, robust - strengthened and expanded entitlements. I back carrots, sticks, thumbs on the scale, and oversight.

However, I also think government is a blunt instrument. I think that the bluntness of that instrument means that it is impossible for the government to perfectly and uniformly ensure all of these things for all 330 million citizens.

Which means that actually - we're just quibbling about the numbers and the specifics.

If the fact that I can only be - for the sake of argument - 80% (85%?) with Ocasio-Cortez means I'm the sans-culottes enemy, then we'll remain at an impasse.

   341. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5715249)
the assumption I make about you is that you're mostly a fence sitter who sometimes takes veiled swipes at the left.

This strikes me as accurate.
   342. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5715250)
That seems to be what may have happened. If "Putin's boys" could figure it out in 2018, they may have known it in 2016, too, even without prompting from BBTF-OTP.


The difference is that unlike you - after this fall, should a Democratic wave come to pass - my opinion on investigating and punishing it will not change.

And - if any Democrat, post-2018 wave - changes their tune, that Democrat will be dead to me and unworthy of my support.
   343. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5715251)
Trump's America

Cops called on women nursing their kids at pool

Two Minnesota women who were confronted at a public pool for breastfeeding say they plan to file a discrimination lawsuit. And over the weekend, dozens of other moms launched their own, special protest outside the pool to support the two women.

Last Wednesday, Stephanie Buchanan and Mary Davis were in the kiddie pool with their children at the Aquatic Center in Mora, about 60 Miles north of Minneapolis. When Buchanan's three-month-old son, Roman, got hungry, Buchanan started nursing him.

"A patron came up, a lady at the pool, and told me that I needed to cover up," Buchanan says.

Davis then started breastfeeding her child in solidarity. A pool employee asked them to cover up or move to the locker room. They refused and decided to leave the pool. That's when a police officer approached them.

"I said 'Minnesota state law protects me to feed my baby anywhere that I need to,'" Buchanan says. "He said, 'I understand, and I let the establishment know, but they reserve the right to ask you to leave.'"


What kind of sick lowlife calls the police on a nursing mother?
   344. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5715254)
Yeah. That article and interview were great. It’s like it’s slowly dawning on her that her side are the bad guys. No wonder she’s terrified!
   345. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5715256)
“Well I know socialism is bad, so if the socialist lady say poor children should have healthcare and education, then I know those things are bad, which means....Oh ####, me and my conservative friends, we.....we don’t want kids to have healthcare? Joe, are........are we the baddies?”
   346. perros Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5715257)
it is impossible for the government to perfectly and uniformly ensure all of these things for all 330 million citizens.

Who claimed that it could? It's not like other countries haven't figured a lot of this stuff out.
   347. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5715260)
For the record, if Yankee Clapper is actually Paul Erickson . . .

So, Zonk's response to my noting that he was just making up stuff with his weaselly speculation about people he disagrees with, is to just make up more stuff about me, with his usual "just saying, don't really know, something, something, could be, don't blame me" disclaimer? He's certainly consistent, if nothing else.
   348. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5715261)
it is impossible for the government to perfectly and uniformly ensure all of these things for all 330 million citizens.


Who claimed that it could? It's not like other countries haven't figured a lot of this stuff out.


But again, then we're talking specifics, numbers, and details...

Take "Medicare for all"... I actually support the concept. More - I think the polling data even shows it to be enormously popular, so it actually annoys me that so many Democrats are resistant to publicly backing it.

However, when the rubber meets the road of actually writing it up as law - it's not going to be as simple as just striking all the age-related eligibility provisions. So, my concern is a haphazard implementation of something I support that ultimately undermines it.

But hey, maybe I'm being stupid - truly... cart before the horse, etc, etc.
   349. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5715262)
So, Zonk's response to my noting that he was just making up stuff with his weaselly speculation about people he disagrees with, is to just make up more stuff about me, with his usual "just saying, don't really know, something, something, could be, don't blame me" disclaimer? He's certainly consistent, if nothing else.


What am I weaselly speculating about?

Setting aside what I think was pretty obvious snark -

Do you think Butina wasn't ####### Erickson? Do you think Butina ####### Erickson isn't what got her access to places she got access to?

Explain to me what connection is weaselly speculation...
   350. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5715263)
Clapper, #347:
Zonk's response [was] his usual "just saying, don't really know, something, something, could be, don't blame me" disclaimer

That seems to be what may have happened.
   351. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5715266)
“Well I know socialism is bad, so if the socialist lady say poor children should have healthcare and education, then I know those things are bad, which means....Oh ####, me and my conservative friends, we.....we don’t want kids to have healthcare? Joe, are........are we the baddies?”
In other news Davo’s should find amusing, inflation in Venezuela is projected to hit 1,000,000% (not a typo) this year.
   352. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5715267)
@EdOverbeek
11m11 minutes ago
More
Trump’s farmer bailout is intended to placate his marks and keep his con going. But it’s also the Tea Party dream - a government safety net, but intended just for “folks like us”. Socialism, but for white nationalists. Let’s call it nationalist socialism.


Apparently the amount of money that the tariffs are costing bean farmers alone is more than the total amount of the proposed farmers' bailout. Ben Sasse (R) of Nebraska was just on the News Hour ripping Trump a new one over this issue. He said he's had farmers coming into his office every day for the last three weeks complaining about the tariffs' effects on them.
   353. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5715268)
the older libs here (and elsewhere) know this line of attack is homophobic and misogynist, but they will excuse anything so long as they believe it hurts Trump

There's probably something to that. OTOH I think that there's a certain kind of satire that isn't homophobic at all. Taunting someone as gay has always been homophobic when the speaker (and sometimes the target) think that being gay is despicable. But what if the target thinks being gay is despicable, and the speaker doesn't? Particularly if the target is a homophobe or a hyper-hetero type.


I'm at a loss to understand why this (bolded) usage of a homophobic slur is not homophobia.
   354. perros Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5715269)
the sans-culottes enemy


Sans-sabots, s'il vous plaît.
   355. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5715270)
Ben Sasse (R) of Nebraska was just on the News Hour ripping Trump a new one over this issue. He said he's had farmers coming into his office every day for the last three weeks complaining about the tariffs' effects on them.


He should just tell his constituents to stop watching the fake news. Problem solved.
   356. BrianBrianson Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5715271)
“Well I know socialism is bad, so if the socialist lady say poor children should have healthcare and education, then I know those things are bad, which means....Oh ####, me and my conservative friends, we.....we don’t want kids to have healthcare? Joe, are........are we the baddies?”
In other news Davo’s should find amusing, inflation in Venezuela is projected to hit 1,000,000% (not a typo) this year.


One of the points on today's (or yesterday's?) 538 podcast was that for people over ~40, "Socialism" means "The Soviet Union", more or less, while for people under 40, "Socialism" means "Sweden". So it's hardly surprising they have different opinions about socialism.
   357. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5715273)
I'm at a loss to understand why this (bolded) usage of a homophobic slur is not homophobia.

We're at a loss to understand why you keep refusing to address this:
5313. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2015 at 01:27 PM (#5006872)

You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.

You can run, and you can hide, but you can't erase the record.
   358. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5715274)
One of the points on today's (or yesterday's?) 538 podcast was that for people over ~40, "Socialism" means "The Soviet Union", more or less, while for people under 40, "Socialism" means "Sweden". So it's hardly surprising they have different opinions about socialism.

And for some of us, "socialism" is a meaningless term when it's used to describe everything from Stalin's Russia to Obamacare. I'll stick with Rabbi Hillel's ethical position and let the Bernies and the Davids argue over what constitutes "socialism".
   359. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5715275)
This Kruta article in the Daily Caller is outstanding!

And for some of us, "socialism" is a meaningless term when it's used to describe everything from Stalin's Russia to Obamacare. I'll stick with Rabbi Hillel's ethical position and let the Bernies and the Davids argue over what constitutes "socialism".


Yup.
   360. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:57 PM (#5715278)
Re: #357--
Unlike Trump, we need to take Ray neither seriously nor literally.
   361. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:57 PM (#5715279)
Art, I think you meant the Daily Beast, not JE's right wing rag. (smile)
   362. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5715280)
Art, I think you meant the Daily Beast, not JE's right wing rag. (smile)


sorry my link is to the Beast, which is riffing on the original article in the Caller

   363. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5715282)
Re: #357--
Unlike Trump, we need to take Ray neither seriously nor literally.


Whereas everyone always takes you figuratively and metaphorically.
   364. zenbitz Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5715284)
The biggest lie the the conservatives ever told was that there isn't enough money to give everyone a fair shake.

For David, yes, the "economy" of Venezuela collapsed. Plenty of countries on the socialism-capitalism scale have their economies collapse.


Correlation is not causation - as you WELL know. And there are plenty of socialist hellholes in Europe whose economies don't seem to be in any more danger than anyone else's.


But yeah, we still value you even if you suffer from some sort of phantom collectivist trauma. Or did you (or your parents?) actually emigrate from the USSR/Eastern Bloc?
   365. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5715286)
Pity the Omega Dancing Monkey. He has to go through life as a dip ####. ALfred E Neuman meets the on screen persona of Eddie Deezen. (Eddie Deezen is a nice person)
   366. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5715287)

Whereas everyone always takes you figuratively and metaphorically.


I really think you need to address your comments about the left fellating Iran. It's an important part of one's growth into recognizing the things that matter, the things that are convenient, and grappling with the grey area they can produce.

Do it, Ray.

It's a healthy thing... and I'm not mocking (well, mostly not mocking).
   367. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5715296)
Results trickling in in Georgia... Early big lead - 15 points - for Kemp, but it's almost all early vote and nothing from around Atlanta.

Would I be correct in assuming that Cagle's best areas are likely to be Fulton, Cobb, Dekalb?
   368. -- Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5715297)
The answer is simple, and it's hard to believe you and yours haven't come up with it yet:

Iran could identify female.

Duh.
   369. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5715298)
Iran could identify female.



That's a different word, and I already said Ray should have used cunnilingus instead of fellate.

Nice try. He has to answer for his hypocrisy. Hoisted by his on petard!
   370. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5715299)
The answer is simple, and it's hard to believe you and yours haven't come up with it yet:

Iran could identify female.


I am fairly sure that many of "the left" are also female.
   371. BDC Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5715300)
But what if the target thinks being gay is despicable, and the speaker doesn't? Particularly if the target is a homophobe or a hyper-hetero type

I'm at a loss to understand why this (bolded) usage of a homophobic slur is not homophobia


Well, it's because homophobia does not consist of a tripwire verbal threshold. I quoted Dan Savage upthread saying that Trump had his tongue up Putin's ###, or words to that effect. Now, if Dan Savage is a homophobe, Rosa Luxemburg was an apologist for capitalism. But it's not just his ethos on every other matter that allows him that break. It's that as a gay writer/activist, he can tease/taunt/satirize a macho hetero in ways that are basically metaphorical. Part of it is "you've called me a f##### all your life, I'm proud of being a f#####, now let's see how you like it."

Again, is this funny? Maybe not. Is it subtle? No. Is it rhetorically effective? Probably not too much, though it certainly makes his point unequivocal. Does it at some level validate a discourse where gay sexual practices and/or identities are seen as perverse or abject? Maybe it does, which is why I'm listening to the argument that shipman and zenbitz have been making. On the one hand, having your tongue up somebody's ### is an insult, and you don't want to perpetuate its availability as insult; but on the other, having your tongue up their ### if that's your joy is cool, whereas being accused of doing it when you fear and abhor such joy undercuts your own homophobia. Trump obviously admires and is even in awe of Putin's hypermasculinity, but would never admit to anything homoerotic about his attraction. Shoving his face in that homoeroticism makes a point, maybe a clumsy point, but a point.

But is it homophobic? Heck no, any more than the reversal of terms employed by any other minority-or-ally rhetorician is racist, sexist, ableist, xenophobic, or any other -ist or -phobic.

   372. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5715301)
Ray, #363:
Unlike Trump, we need to take Ray neither seriously nor literally.
Whereas everyone always takes you figuratively and metaphorically.


THIS is the snappy comeback someone who gives pompous lectures on comedy theory comes up with?

Shall we assume it was an authentic attempt (pardon me, attempt) at a joke? (Or "joke"?)

It seems that Ray's hilarious insult "fellate Iran" should be treated like conservative rabbis treat the word "Yahweh": unspoken.
   373. BDC Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5715303)
the "economy" of Venezuela collapsed. Plenty of countries on the socialism-capitalism scale have their economies collapse

Not to mention that the underlying structural problems in the Venezuelan economy stem from decades of 1-percenter capitalism/neocolonialism, that in turn provoked the socialist/populist Chavez movement.
   374. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5715307)
Not to mention that the underlying structural problems in the Venezuelan economy stem from decades of 1-percenter capitalism/neocolonialism, that in turn provoked the socialist/populist Chavez movement.


it was propped up by oil. when prices dove, the rug was swept out from under it all. The Saudis do the same thing, except they got more oil and more money saved up from it.
   375. Tom T Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5715308)
But it's not just his ethos on every other matter that allows him that break. It's that as a gay writer/activist, he can tease/taunt/satirize a macho hetero in ways that are basically metaphorical. Part of it is "you've called me a f##### all your life, I'm proud of being a f#####, now let's see how you like it."


We have a Department Head who publishes...um...we'll run with "non-traditional" statements to the effect that mathematical rigor in engineering is a form of white heterosexual domination (shouldn't be hard for you to find this).

The other Heads and faculty have been a bit uncertain how to deal with this individual due to the fact that, not unexpectedly, but decidedly unfortunately, all of the other Heads happen to be male, of some Caucasian extraction, and heterosexual.

This year, however, one of the new Heads happens to be male, Caucasian, but notably NOT heterosexual...and a strong believer in mathematical rigor in engineering.

I am thinking of bringing popcorn to the next committee meeting involving these two Heads at which educational topics are discussed.
   376. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5715309)
S-B-B, #368:
The answer is simple, and it's hard to believe you and yours haven't come up with it yet:
Iran could identify female.
Duh.

So, S-B-B, when you wrote that David Nieporent had "a strange emotional need to rhetorically fellate organized power," you meant something like Planned Parenthood, or Hadassah, or Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling?
   377. -- Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5715310)
Now, if Dan Savage is a homophobe,


You and yours continue to make the rudimentary error of conflating the static state -- "being a homophobe" -- with acts that might or might not demonstrate the static state -- "making a homophobic slur."

Heck no, any more than the reversal of terms employed by any other minority-or-ally rhetorician is racist, sexist, ableist, xenophobic, or any other -ist or -phobic.


Nah, all this is is an axiom for your preferred modern liberal, identity-based culture. Actual liberals reject such a culture and therefore the axiom. Why a gay person should be permitted to belittle other gay people is very much an exercise best left to the reader.
   378. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:55 PM (#5715311)
Not to mention that the underlying structural problems in the Venezuelan economy stem from decades of 1-percenter capitalism/neocolonialism, that in turn provoked the socialist/populist Chavez movement.


Correct. Venezuela's reactionary turn to hard socialism/communism was, well, a reaction. Against the decades long exploitation of that region's natural resource by colonialists (read "Americans" and their cronies.) And of course, when the economy of Gilded Ageism failed, it was blamed on the reactionary movement that was simply a belleweather of that coming failure.
   379. -- Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5715312)
So, S-B-B, when you wrote that David Nieporent had "a strange emotional need to rhetorically fellate organized power," you meant something like Planned Parenthood, or Hadassah, or Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling?


Best guess there is that I meant he had a strange emotional need to rhetorically fellate organized power.

For what something like that has to do with calling one actual man's mouth another actual man's "cockholster," we must consult the current edition of the Annals of TDS.
   380. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5715314)
I see Fake Lawyer is back to rhetorically fellating himself.
   381. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:08 PM (#5715317)
Coming up on 100K votes in - extrapolating from past runoffs, it seems like the total is likely to be ~500K. Kemp is romping by 24 points. Nothing from the Atlanta area yet, but full results from some areas and Cagle barely added anything from his first round.

Looks like Abrams vs Kemp.

I think November 6 is a good day to plan a dawn hop in your pickup with daughter's beau at gunpoint and drive some illegals to Mexico... just to toss a date out.
   382. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5715319)
In blue collar news - Factory Towns, Once Solidly Democratic, Are Now A GOP Haven:
The Republican Party has become the party of blue-collar America. After the 1992 election, 15 of the 20 most manufacturing-intensive Congressional districts in America were represented by Democrats. Today, all 20 are held by Republicans.
. . .
In 1992, there were 860 counties where at least 25% of the working population was employed in manufacturing. Democrat Bill Clinton won 49% of those counties. By 2016, manufacturers employed at least a quarter of the workforce in only 320 counties. Ninety-five percent of them went for Donald Trump.

Not the same towns in all cases, but a clear trend. Much more at link, which goes to the WSJ. Note: May have to access via Google to get the full version of the article for free.
   383. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5715320)
Not to mention that the underlying structural problems in the Venezuelan economy stem from decades of 1-percenter capitalism/neocolonialism, that in turn provoked the socialist/populist Chavez movement.

Correct. Venezuela's reactionary turn to hard socialism/communism was, well, a reaction. Against the decades long exploitation of that region's natural resource by colonialists (read "Americans" and their cronies.) And of course, when the economy of Gilded Ageism failed, it was blamed on the reactionary movement that was simply a belleweather of that coming failure.
Strangely, none of the other countries in the reason have suffered from the same problem.

Also, BM will be along soon to tell you about personal responsibility, and about the only people responsible for the socialist policymaking debacles are socialist policymakers.
   384. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5715324)
Strangely, none of the other countries in the reason have suffered from the same problem.

There's got to be a valid region for that.
   385. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5715330)
S-B-B, #379:
For what something like that has to do with calling one actual man's mouth another actual man's "cockholster," we must consult the current edition of the Annals of TDS.


Another marvelous SBB afterthought edit. See, the pivotal difference is Vladimir Putin's penis is REAL! That's why SBB is a true liberal and everyone else is a deranged homophobe.
   386. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:31 PM (#5715333)

For what something like that has to do with calling one actual man's mouth another actual man's "cockholster," we must consult the current edition of the Annals of TDS.
YM Anals. HTH.
   387. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5715346)
382–Not too surprising. Neither party represents the interests of workers any more, but the (mostly older mostly male) manufacturing workers slew closer to the conservative view on social issues.
   388. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5715359)
Looks like a rout for Kemp in GA.
   389. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5715361)
Not too surprising. Neither party represents the interests of workers any more, but the (mostly older mostly male) manufacturing workers slew closer to the conservative view on social issues.


Yup. The old working class voting block skews GOP because the GOP is the party of angry, petulant, racist, old white men. (By the way, that's not a good snapshot of the actual American working class any more. White guy in a hard hat is an out of date meme. The working class is best pictured as a woman of color working at a fast food counter.)
   390. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5715364)
Looks like a rout for Kemp in GA.


He *did* spend the last few years gaming the voting machines, after all. (Honestly, he's just one of the incompetent idiots running on the GOP side of the ticket this year.)
   391. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5715366)
(By the way, that's not a good snapshot of the actual American working class any more. White guy in a hard hat is an out of date meme. The working class is best pictured as a woman of color working at a fast food counter.)


“Woman of color” LOL

Not you white devil! Not you!
   392. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5715372)
Looks like a rout for Kemp in GA.


Rout hell - Cagle may not even make it to the 39% he managed in round 1.
   393. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: July 24, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5715379)
Best guess there is that I meant he had a strange emotional need to rhetorically fellate organized power.

For what something like that has to do with calling one actual man's mouth another actual man's "cockholster," we must consult the current edition of the Annals of TDS.

The word "fellate" has a clear meaning, and you used it in a plainly pejorative manner. How is that not a homophobic thing to say about a man, even in a metaphor?.

Further, you seem to be under the impression that Colbert's implication with his joke was any different than yours. I don't see it, unless you think that Colbert was suggesting Trump literally holsters Putin's #### in his mouth.
   394. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5715410)
   395. BrianBrianson Posted: July 24, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5715411)
The working class is best pictured as a woman of color working at a fast food counter


Retail is correct, but ~75% of Americans are white, and men are more likely to be working (for wages, anyhow) than women are.
   396. tshipman Posted: July 24, 2018 at 10:47 PM (#5715421)
Strangely, none of the other countries in the reason have suffered from the same problem.


Venezuela is a basket case in terms of government, but it's not like it's this huge outlier in the region.
Brazil GDP/capita is 15K, Venezuela is at 12K. (Per IMF, although the hyperinflation makes that number highly variable.)
Paraguay, for instance, is poorer (9.8K).

Venezuela is also the only country with significant oil assets, with all that comes with that.

I dunno ... Chavez was certainly not good for the country in the long run, but his period of rule was also the most stable period in the last 50 years. Venezuela's basket-case status is more likely to have led to the socialist government than the other way around.
   397. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5715424)
DON’T TELL THE PRIGS!

I'm going to tell them you're following a STONECOLD twitter that isn't Steve Austin's.
   398. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5715427)
flip
   399. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5715428)
flip
   400. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5715429)
flip
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