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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   601. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5715917)
Jeez - you don't need to approach history with the nuanced understanding of a three year old playing "Me Power Ranger, You Bad Guy".


Brian the babe they called Brian
He grew, grew grew and grew
Grew up to be, yes he grew up to be
A boy called Brian, a boy called Brian

He had arms and legs and hands and feet
This boy whose name was Brian
And he grew, he grew and grew
Grew up to be, yes he grew up to be

A teenager called Brian, a teenager called Brian
And his face became spotty
Yes his face became spotty
And his voice dropped down low
And things started to grow on young Brian and so
He was certainly now, no girl named Brian
Not a girl named Brian

And he started to shave
And have one off the wrist
And want to see girls
And go out and get pissed
A man called Brian
this man called Brian
A man they called Brian
   602. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5715920)
White Fragility

DiAngelo addresses her book mostly to white people, and she reserves her harshest criticism for white liberals like herself (and like me), whom she sees as refusing to acknowledge their own participation in racist systems. “I believe,” she writes, “that white progressives cause the most daily damage to people of color.” Not only do these people fail to see their complicity, but they take a self-serving approach to ongoing anti-racism efforts: “To the degree that white progressives think we have arrived, we will put our energy into making sure that others see us as having arrived.” Even the racial beliefs and responses that feel authentic or well-intentioned have likely been programmed by white supremacy, to perpetuate white supremacy. Whites profit off of an American political and economic system that showers advantages on racial “winners” and oppresses racial “losers.” Yet, DiAngelo writes, white people cling to the notion of racial innocence, a form of weaponized denial that positions black people as the “havers” of race and the guardians of racial knowledge. Whiteness, on the other hand, scans as invisible, default, a form of racelessness. “Color blindness,” the argument that race shouldn’t matter, prevents us from grappling with how it does.

Much of “White Fragility” is dedicated to pulling back the veil on these so-called pillars of whiteness: assumptions that prop up racist beliefs without our realizing it. Such ideologies include individualism, or the distinctly white-American dream that one writes one’s own destiny, and objectivity, the confidence that one can free oneself entirely from bias....

In DiAngelo’s almost epidemiological vision of white racism, our minds and bodies play host to a pathogen that seeks to replicate itself, sickening us in the process. Like a mutating virus, racism shape-shifts in order to stay alive; when its explicit expression becomes taboo, it hides in coded language. Nor does prejudice disappear when people decide that they will no longer tolerate it. It just looks for ways to avoid detection. “The most effective adaptation of racism over time,” DiAngelo claims, “is the idea that racism is conscious bias held by mean people.” This “good/bad binary,” positing a world of evil racists and compassionate non-racists, is itself a racist construct, eliding systemic injustice and imbuing racism with such shattering moral meaning that white people, especially progressives, cannot bear to face their collusion in it. (Pause on that, white reader. You may have subconsciously developed your strong negative feelings about racism in order to escape having to help dismantle it.) As an ethical thinker, DiAngelo belongs to the utilitarian school, which places less importance on attitudes than on the ways in which attitudes cause harm. Unpacking the fantasy of black men as dangerous and violent, she does not simply fact-check it; she shows the myth’s usefulness to white people—to obscure the historical brutality against African-Americans, and to justify continued abuse.

   603. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5715922)
postmodernism was a mistake.
   604. PepTech Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5715924)
Regarding the Cohen tape:

1) Cohen comes across as a weasel for taping his own client.
2) Trump sounds like a normal human being, with actual conversations going on and, like, listening and stuff.
3) Trump clearly knew McDougal was being quashed, which I'm certain he's denied, therefore he's a liar. Again. Yawn. This will do nothing to move the needle on Trump either way.
   605. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5715928)
What seems to bother you is that I also use it if I'm responding to a series of comments that I want to differentiate from each other. If person A is responding to person B, I'll sequence it like this:
No, you won't. As evidenced by the very post you post this claim in (570).

See where you put the comment starting with "Howie..." in bold italics?
See where you put the comment starting with "JFC..." in italics?

See how you don't use the "quote" function for either of those, even though both of those are quoting people?
   606. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5715929)
Again... to make the argument for some partial counting of slaves for purposes of the census and consequent allocation of representation, you need to explain the difference between a slave and a cow under such an idea.

I am still waiting to hear one.
Slaves could become free citizens. Cows could not.
   607. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5715930)
But - let's assume a master freed a slave in his will. That slave would still lack standing to receive the estate.
That is incorrect. Setting aside that Dred Scott was not just a moral abomination but a legal one -- it simply invented claims about American historical jurisprudence out of thin air -- the case was about blacks' rights under the constitution. Inheritance is a question of state law.

So, I imagine anyone not-a-slave would have pretty easily gotten a judgment to receive the estate.

Property cannot inherit property.
The case you cite did not hold that freed blacks remained property. It held that they couldn't be citizens.
   608. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5715933)

So what you're saying is the Founders used the 3/5ths compromise so slave owning southerners could count them for House representation the way Wyoming uses cows today?
No, the way that Californians use illegal aliens today.
   609. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5715936)
#591:
an individual South Carolinian had vastly more sway on the Presidential election than did an individual Mainer


Although, to get very pedantic here, the individual South Carolinian's vote had only an indirect impact, even as late as 1860. Throughout the whole antebellum period, presidential electors from South Carolina were chosen by the legislature, not by popular vote. SC was exceptional in this, as most states had gone over to popular vote long since (or like Virginia, always done so). Here's an interesting chart of appointment of electors by state.



A South Carolinian never held more sway than in the 1876 Hayes-Tilden squabble, when an impressive 101% of South Carolina's eligible voters were duly and officially reported to have cast a ballot. One of my favorite political tidbits. It just goes to show that turnout is very important.

It's just too bad America didn't have cable news and the internet while the 1876 election winner was being hashed out. That would have cooled passions by giving both sides a fair and open chance to express their respective viewpoints.
   610. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5715937)

Trump hasn't united the country yet - but by booting a CNN correspondent from an event tonight, he is bringing media cats and dogs together

Bret Baier
‏Verified account @BretBaier
24m24 minutes ago

Bret Baier Retweeted John Roberts

As a member of the White House Press pool- @FoxNews stands firmly with @CNN on this issue and the issue of access
   611. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5715939)
postmodernism was a mistake.


The utilitarian part concerned with present harm is the takaway here. Which I largely think comes down to listening to others' stories, not unlike the metoo movement.... Sincerely standing in the other person's shoes, with empathy. Guilt's pretty stupid for stuff you didn't do.
   612. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5715940)
Coming back to this a bit late since I was tied up at work all day:

David N: The problem is that this is looking backwards in time, rather than looking at the situation at the time. Most people couldn't vote in 1789, not just slaves. Women and children, of course. But non-property-owning-whites generally couldn't vote either.

Well, nobody would say that the Constitution decreed that white women were 100% equal to men due to the *lack* of a 3/5 compromise for women. So you are sort of making my point.

And unlike the inability of women to vote, the 3/5 Compromise gave disproportionate benefit in representation to slave states over free states. VA and PA had roughly equal free populations in the 1790 census (VA had 5.7% more people), but VA had nearly 50% more representation in Congress (19 vs. 13) due to the presence of slaves, even though its representatives had every incentive to vote against the interests of those slaves.*

The percentage of the population that were free women and children did not vary that much by state, relatively speaking. But the population of slaves, taking into account the 3/5 calculation, ranged from 0-45% of the free population depending on the state.

I just ran some numbers and in the end this did not have as much of an effect on the composition of Congress as one might expect, but it was still meaningful. "Slave states" had about 40% of the free population according to the 1790 census, but received about 46% of the representatives in Congress (I am not including NY or NJ as "slave states", even though they did not outlaw slavery until a few years later).

As noted above, Virginia was the biggest beneficiary, gaining 4 representatives vs. what they should have gotten based on free population only, while Maryland and South Carolina gained one apiece. A number of "Free states" (including NJ) lost one rep apiece. If representatives had been apportioned solely based only on free adult male population (i.e. excluding women and children), a few states might have gained or lost a single representative (versus what they would have received based on total free population), but none would have seen as big a swing as VA did due to the 3/5 Compromise.

* All references above are to the 1790 Census and to the 1793 Congress, which was the first one apportioned based on that Census.
   613. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5715948)
When SC seceded in 1861, slaves were like 2/3rds of the population. The other big plantation states were similar, I think. Such a population imbalance lives on in collective behavior, if not conscious memory.
   614. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5715952)
I don't think I'm moving any goalposts.


You definitely moved from "the legal treatment of slaves" to "the legal treatment of slaves by the federal government" because they states were doing things you claimed didn't happen, which would make no sense to an honest actor. Federally, slaves essentially didn't exist, except as mandated by the individual states.
   615. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5715953)
In economic news - Trump & E.U. Announce Trade Deal:
The U.S. and European Union have reached a deal to ease trade tensions and avoid further tariffs, President Trump and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said Wednesday.

The deal calls for both sides to “work together toward zero tariffs” on industrial goods, Trump said at a joint appearance in the Rose Garden after meeting with Juncker. The European Union will also import more U.S. soybeans and liquefied natural gas, or LNG, both leaders said. And both sides will work together to reform the World Trade Organization, they said.

The E.U. is a bit overdue on welcoming U.S. agricultural exports, but it looks like there may be a breakthrough here.
   616. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5715962)
[quote“I believe,” she writes, “that white progressives cause the most daily damage to people of color.”

So, should I join the klan then?
   617. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:36 PM (#5715963)
Politico:
In abrupt shift, Trump makes nice with EU, gets tough on Russia
Few people close to the president believe he has changed much, but the White House appears sensitive to mounting criticism.


Over the course of just 11 days, President Donald Trump went from calling the European Union a “foe” and publicly questioning his own intelligence agencies to palling around with a top EU official in the Rose Garden and scheduling a meeting with his senior advisers to discuss election security.

It was an abrupt tonal shift for the president — and it underscored the growing pressure on Trump from fellow Republicans to toughen his public stance against Russia and to limit the fallout of the escalating global trade wars.

Few people close to the president believe he has changed much, and they expect the president to continue bashing long-time U.S. allies and cozying up to Russian President Vladimir Putin whenever he gets the chance. Still, the announcements on trade and Russia appeared to serve as high-profile messaging after a week of chaos that Trump is on the same page as his political party — and that the White House is sensitive to the mounting criticism.

.............The announcement appeared to have been slapped together at the last minute. ................>Reporters were rushed into the Rose Garden for the unscheduled remarks with little notice. The Rose Garden was empty, with the exception of the few dozen journalists who observed Trump and Juncker.

.................Neither EU officials nor the White House offered many details about the agreement they reached on trade. In large part, it appeared to be a symbolic deal meant to give both sides relief from tariffs while they continued to negotiate. The tentative accord — essentially to forestall an escalation of a trade war rather than end the existing tit-for-tat tariffs — is a major win for the EU, and especially Germany, the bloc’s biggest and richest member.

...........Many of the provisions of the truce fit with EU priorities and require little action by Brussels or capitals across the continent. Imports of U.S. soybeans were already expected to rise sharply in response to Trump’s larger, more brutal trade war with China. And the EU has long hoped to eliminate nearly all tariffs on manufactured goods and had been working to do so in negotiations with the Obama administration for an earlier trade accord, before talks broke down.

.............Meanwhile, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on Russia to end its annexation of Crimea in a declaration released on Wednesday. While the statement reaffirmed a long-held U.S. position, the timing was notable, given Trump’s recent defenses of Putin.

The White House also announced that a planned second meeting between Putin and Trump would be delayed until 2019. The decision to put off the summit will limit — at least for now — the political blowback that would result from another huddle between the world leaders. But the move is likely not part of some grand strategy to distance Trump from Putin; the Kremlin was reportedly reluctant to accept the invitation.
   618. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5715968)
Rudy Giuliani is floating his own "would/wouldn't" alibi for the just-released Michael Cohen tape. Guiliani insists that Donald Trump is telling Michael Cohen "Don't pay with cash" in the part of the tape where Trump is heard saying "Pay with cash."

Want proof? “I’ve got 4,000 hours of Mafia people on tape," said Guiliani on Fox News. "I know how to listen to them, I know how to transcribe them."
   619. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5715969)
new Quinnipiac poll: "Who do you trust more to tell the truth - President Trump, or the news media?"

REPUBLICANS
75 pct Trump
16 pct news media

DEMOCRATS
86 pct news media
5 pct Trump
   620. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5715979)
You definitely moved from "the legal treatment of slaves" to "the legal treatment of slaves by the federal government" because they states were doing things you claimed didn't happen, which would make no sense to an honest actor. Federally, slaves essentially didn't exist, except as mandated by the individual states.


I don't think I did.

If I wasn't clear, I'll state it clearly:

The sole and only reason to "count" slaves as 3/5 of a person was for purposes of representation in the federal government. Representation at the federal level meant weight in terms of electing Presidents, determining the composition of congress, and the resulting legislation of such a thing.

The underlying concept of a census to determine such - even accepting colonial/early constitution distinctions between classes - is that this grand new experiment existed for the benefit, direct (in the case of voters) and indirect (in the case of non-voters who nevertheless would benefit), of those people counted.

The 3/5 compromise provided zero benefit for the slaves who were counted as 3/5 a person. None. Zero. This really cannot be in dispute. However imperfect, at the barest minimum - for a woman or a child - it meant some armed force dictated by the new government would at least prevent pirates from invading and carrying them away into slavery.

For the slave, it meant.... foreign slavers wouldn't invade and carry you away into slavery.

Strip away all the distinctions and you are left with one, basic fact:

Does counting that person as a person - or some fraction of a person - actually matter to that person?

If it does, count them. If it doesn't, it's all bullshit parlor nonsense.

   621. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5715984)
posted by Howie M, #619:
new Quinnipiac poll: "Who do you trust more to tell the truth - President Trump, or the news media?"

REPUBLICANS
75 pct Trump
16 pct news media

DEMOCRATS
86 pct news media
5 pct Trump

Same pollster, same question, from the Quinnipiac survey taken 19 months ago (Feb. 2017):

REPUBLICANS
78 pct Trump
13 pct news media

DEMOCRATS
86 pct news media
7 pct Trump

In the same two polls, independent voters have risen from 50% to 58% in favor of the media, and have dropped from 38% to 29% who trust Trump. That's a 17% swing away from Trump.
   622. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5715987)
Does counting that person as a person - or some fraction of a person - actually matter to that person?


Again, you're moving goalposts - the question was about whether counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person for the purpose of representation unduly favored the South, the North, or whether the question even makes sense (I guess, if I had to take a position, I'd probably say the question makes no sense). Now, you're asking about whether it matters to the slave, because the position it unduly favored the South has been found to not be very defensible. Maybe it's a parlor game, but no one made you engage it. All those people are dead, so it's almost necessarily academic. Slavery might still have a legacy in inherited wealth and such, but the 3/5ths issue is genuinely gone.
   623. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5715989)

When SC seceded in 1861, slaves were like 2/3rds of the population. The other big plantation states were similar, I think. Such a population imbalance lives on in collective behavior, if not conscious memory.
The last claim is... well, I don't even know what; what's the word for something that's trying to sound profound but is actually just meaningless?

The claims that are actually concrete are wrong. No state had close to 2/3rds of its population being slaves. South Carolina was 57%; Mississippi was 55% No other state was more than 47%. (Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, and Georgia were in the 40s). Other slave states were 1/3 or less.
   624. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5715991)
thanks, Gonfalon - I wondered about independents
   625. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5715992)
This link puts SCs slave population at 65 percent in 1720, and things went up and down from there. The low country near Charleston was 80 percent slave at one time.
   626. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5715994)
The claims that are actually concrete are wrong. No state had close to 2/3rds of its population being slaves. South Carolina was 57%; Mississippi was 55%


Maybe it's the astronomer in my, but 57% is awfully close to 2/3rds.
   627. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5715996)
When SC seceded in 1861, slaves were like 2/3rds of the population. The other big plantation states were similar, I think. Such a population imbalance lives on in collective behavior, if not conscious memory.

The last claim is... well, I don't even know what; what's the word for something that's trying to sound profound but is actually just meaningless?


Far out, man.
   628. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5715997)
Again, you're moving goalposts - the question was about whether counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person for the purpose of representation unduly favored the South, the North, or whether the question even makes sense (I guess, if I had to take a position, I'd probably say the question makes no sense)


OK, well, this is an easy one.

Simply redo the allocation with slaves counting for nothing. Of course the slave states benefited from the 'compromise'.

Now, you're asking about whether it matters to the slave, because the position it unduly favored the South has been found to not be very defensible.


Shouldn't that ultimately be the point, if we're talking about 'counting' 'people' for ANY purpose? I mean, seriously - if it matters not all to the person counted, then why else would you count them?

Maybe it's a parlor game, but no one made you engage it. All those people are dead, so it's almost necessarily academic.


The 3/5 compromise came up. If one wishes to express an opinion on it, how do you not involve the above - absent my suggested proviso that we're strictly talking about the necessity of the United States coming to pass, surviving 70 years, and ultimately being a position that that which was not best solvable in 1788 became such? I'm not salting the historical earth - I'm just saying that "well, the slave states had a point..." is bullshit. They had a trump card to play and played it. Nothing more.

Slavery might still have a legacy in inherited wealth and such, but the 3/5ths issue is genuinely gone.


I've never even come close to implying otherwise.

I've solely and purely said that the 3/5 compromise for purposes of representation in terms of Constitution --> Civil War was purely bullshit. I've said it benefited solely and undeniably the slaveholders and that it had no real philosophical foundation beyond aggregation expediency.

I have even said, in essence, "but yeah, at least we got a pretty sweet 21st century country out of it".
   629. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:55 PM (#5715998)
I'd probably say the question makes no sense


Read a history book. Seriously, there's no question the 3/5s Compromise gave the slave states a dominant political position for the next half-century.
   630. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:59 PM (#5716000)
Far out, man.


More Ray impressions. Far out, indeed.
   631. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5716002)
Without knowing all the statistics, my gut reaction is to oppose slavery.
   632. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5716003)
OK, well, this is an easy one.

Simply redo the allocation with slaves counting for nothing. Of course the slave states benefited from the 'compromise'.


Sure, but simply redo the allocation with slaves counting as a whole person. Of course the slaves states suffered from the 'compromise'. Neither position is the clear default. All the other people (except Indians) who received no say in the process still counted for the allocation. Why would slaves be singled out as different from all other persons who weren't allowed to vote?
   633. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5716006)
Without knowing all the statistics, my gut reaction is to oppose slavery.


Well, we're a rich and populous society, whose economic is largely driven by brainpower, so slavery is a bad decision. (Hopefully, only the irredeemable Jess Franco will take this totally seriously).
   634. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5716008)
Slavery might still have a legacy in inherited wealth and such,


The legacy of slavery is imbedded in US custom, law, behavior, and wealth, and why African-Americans as a whole remain second-class citizens in those areas.
   635. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5716009)
Hopefully, only the irredeemable Jess Franco will take this totally seriously


Always look on the bright side of life.
   636. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5716010)
I have even said, in essence, "but yeah, at least we got a pretty sweet 21st century country out of it".


Ain't America Great Again?
   637. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5716012)
The legacy of slavery is imbedded in US custom, law, behavior, and wealth, and why African-Americans as a whole remain second-class citizens in those areas.


Jeez, read a dictionary.
   638. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5716014)
Sure, but simply redo the allocation with slaves counting as a whole person. Of course the slaves states suffered from the 'compromise'. Neither position is the clear default. All the other people (except Indians) who received no say in the process still counted for the allocation. Why would slaves be singled out as different from all other persons who weren't allowed to vote?


Which will lead to the same place.

The proportion of legislative representation and electoral college votes will mean that the non-slave states maintain enough power to force compromises when push comes to shove on the expansion of slavery - 1820, Kansas-Nebreska, etc - but would've needed another 50 years to stop it cold (depending, of course).

I hate to pull out the old whipping boy, but this is a strain of Dunning... that the southern slave states were content to protect the peculiar institution in the south. They weren't. They were actively more expansionist. The Mexican-American War gets far, far too little play in this context. It was a war that the south wanted and the south got.

I'm sorry, but pretending that the slave state political center from 1788 to 1865 wasn't a lot more John C Calhoun on his worst days than Thomas Jefferson on his best days is folly.
   639. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5716015)
Again, you're moving goalposts - the question was about whether counting slaves as 3/5ths of a person for the purpose of representation unduly favored the South, the North, or whether the question even makes sense (I guess, if I had to take a position, I'd probably say the question makes no sense)

OK, well, this is an easy one.

Simply redo the allocation with slaves counting for nothing. Of course the slave states benefited from the 'compromise'.
Again: without the compromise, slaves would have counted 100%. So the compromise hurt the slave states (in that regard; it helped them, of course, with respect to taxes). The default was that every person -- citizen, noncitizen, man, woman, child, white, black, free, slave -- was counted. Then they excluded Indians entirely. And then they excluded 2/5ths of slaves.
   640. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5716020)
Which will lead to the same place.


Probably eventually, but it's hard to be totally confident. That Europe went anti-slavery pretty quickly might've played out differently if the US remained staunchly pro-slavery, maybe propped it up in Brazil, etc. etc. If slaves counted as whole persons for determining representation, slave states would've had a much stronger strangehold on American politics.
   641. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5716021)
I feel like such a rube

I taped Maddow tonight specifically expecting that - since she led last night's broadcast with, well, "fake news" that Trump's people had deliberately rigged the transcript to delete the question to Putin about wanting Trump to win the election (see previous page) - that she would lead tonight's show with a mea culpa.

no such luck - the first 20 minutes was on that female Russian in hot water.

geesh, you know what you're getting with a clown like Hannity. while I have criticized Maddow before, it's partly because I expect much better from her. I guess I ain't gonna get it. as Trump likes to say, #SAD!
   642. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5716022)
The legacy of slavery is imbedded in US custom, law, behavior, and wealth, and why African-Americans as a whole remain second-class citizens in those areas.

Jeez, read a dictionary.


The white man’s dictionary???

Get woke my brother.
   643. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5716025)
Again: without the compromise, slaves would have counted 100%. So the compromise hurt the slave states (in that regard; it helped them, of course, with respect to taxes). The default was that every person -- citizen, noncitizen, man, woman, child, white, black, free, slave -- was counted. Then they excluded Indians entirely. And then they excluded 2/5ths of slaves.


No, without the compromise, perhaps the constitution doesn't get ratified by the states that had slaves.

Slaves counting anywhere between 1% and 99% was the price of ratification.


   644. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5716033)
No, without the compromise, perhaps the constitution doesn't get ratified by the states that had slaves.


If America remains British, is slavery still outlawed in 1834?
   645. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5716036)
Agree with #643. The compromise was by definition a compromise between two positions. One of those positions would have benefited the white population of the south relative to the compromise position, the other would have hurt them relative to the compromise.
   646. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5716040)

The quote tab should always be used when quoting OUTSIDE ARTICLES. Do we agree on that? That's what I was referring to with my comment to Howie.

What seems to bother you is that I ALSO use it if I'm responding to a series of comments that I want to differentiate from each other. If person A is responding to person B, I'll sequence it like this:


No, you won't. As evidenced by the very post you post this claim in (570).

See where you put the comment starting with "Howie..." in bold italics?
See where you put the comment starting with "JFC..." in italics?

See how you don't use the "quote" function for either of those, even though both of those are quoting people?


One of these days one of your precocious daughters will explain to you the difference between "outside articles" and "other people", but since it may be past their bedtime I'll try to spare them the effort.

"Outside articles" refers to (wait for it) articles from outside sources: The Washington Post, National Review, etc.

"Other people" refers to other Primates who are participating in the discussion.

Are you following me now, Bright Boy?

So here we go.....

When I'm quoting an article, I always use the quote tab. For example, from the Washington Post's website....
Conservative lawmakers on Wednesday introduced a resolution calling for the impeachment of Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein, in a move that marks a dramatic escalation in the battle over the special counsel investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election.

And when (for instance) I want to respond to something you've said in reply to something that I've said, it goes like this:

[You]: Obamacare was first proposed by Stalin in 1928 as part of his 5 year plan to enslave America.

[Me]: Hmmmm, where are you getting that from?

[You]: It says so right here in The Federalist Papers, as translated by the Federalist Society.


Italics light: You
Italics bold: Me

Or to use the example above:

Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.

JFC. Donald Trump is on firmer ground in criticizing people for incivility and economic illiteracy than you are in criticizing people for being unable to understand how to use the quote tab.


Keeping up, Whiz Kid? I knew you could.

But you'll have to summon all of your ancestral intelligence to advance to the next step: What if I'd included something Howie had said? Then it would go like this:
(there is more detail on the parallel feeds, but I didn't want to quote twholeFA. just google news "Washington Post transcript Trump" and you can find it and add your own segment if you like.)

Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.

JFC. Donald Trump is on firmer ground in criticizing people for incivility and economic illiteracy than you are in criticizing people for being unable to understand how to use the quote tab.

Quote tab: Howie

Italics bold: Me
Italics light: You

It may not be as easy to follow as Taxation = "Stealing people's lives"**, but if you concentrate real hard I think it'll eventually come to you.

And please, David, promise me you'll never change.

** That'd be you, in light italics



   647. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5716042)
BrianB, #633:
Without knowing all the statistics, my gut reaction is to oppose slavery.


Well, we're a rich and populous society, whose economic is largely driven by brainpower, so slavery is a bad decision. (Hopefully, only the irredeemable Jess Franco will take this totally seriously).


Everyone from Roseanne to the director of "Guardians of the Galaxy" to our very own Ray and SBB is getting devastated by their own unfortunate digital paper trails. That's why I felt I needed to plant a marker against slavery, without any regard for how popular or unpopular slavery may be. Just in case I ever run for Senate, or direct a film about a space raccoon.
   648. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5716045)
And when (for instance) I want to respond to something you've said in reply to something that I've said, it goes like this:
Right; I know. Or, in other words, you don't know how to properly use the ####### quote tab. See, the quote tab is for quoted material. When you quote Howie, or me, or anyone else, that's quoted material (just like stuff from the Washington Post is). Use the ####### quote tab like every single other person here.
   649. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5716046)
It's too bad Ray isn't here, it would be a satisfying robot triumvirate.
   650. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5716056)
Use the ####### quote tab like every single other person here.


It is OK to be different. Diversity is OK. That said I don't want to have to skip over any more posts where Andy describes his weird formatting, so please stop. :)
   651. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5716058)
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the official White House transcript from the Helsinki press conference just happens to remove exactly ONE question: "Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?”

Of course, it's also just a coincidence that the exact same question is also missing from the official Kremlin transcript. Convenient coincidences, indeed.


The Washington Post debunks that theory, which appears to have originated with MSNBC. The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, which caused the Post to produce the same transcript.


While people will wonder if Maddow will Apologize for her nuttiness, or whether her viewers will acknowledge it -- first they'd have to recognize it -- the overarching question is what to make of people who see the world in this nutty conspiracy sort of way. It's no different from Alex Jones, but don't expect the TDSers to understand that.
   652. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5716059)
The Washington Post debunks that theory, which appears to have originated with MSNBC. The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, which caused the Post to produce the same transcript.

If that was the case, why is the White House version slightly different than the Kremlin version?


Because the same type of conspiratorial thinking that brought us BENGHAZI and the pizza parlor nutters is not limited to folks on the right, much as folks on the left think/pretend that it is.
   653. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:12 PM (#5716061)
Not to defend Maddow specifically here


Lol.

Just say she pimped a nutty conspiracy theory to her viewers and move on, already.

She is predisposed to seeing the world that way.
   654. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5716062)
Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.


Good for thee but not for me, Andy? That seems rather hypocritical.
   655. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5716063)
So some of the fringiest Republicans have offered articles of impeachment of Rod Rosenstein. (Jim "What sexual assault?" Jordan and Mark Meadows.) The whole enterprise is frivolous to begin with, and I assume it's not meant to be taken seriously but just to get some free talk radio time, but the best part is that it includes things that happened six months before Rosenstein took office.
   656. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5716064)
well, it is remarkable that perhaps the most notable question of the interview is the only one missing from the transcript. that is a fairly likely start to a good story.

but you have to do your homework, and then either get to the finish line - or pull up short.
Maddow had a decent "just sayin'" story in her hand.
"we haven't been able to find out why yet, but a critical Q/A from the Trump-Putin has not showed up on the official transcript."

that would be exactly right.

ugh. I FFd thru the DVR, and at the 50-minute mark, she doubled down.
mentioned and dismissed The Washington Post "speculation" about a technical issue, focusing instead on the White House "finally admitting" that the transcript is missing a Q/A.
they claim the official record is going to "the archivist," but Maddow notes - I assume accurately - that the video on the official site still doesn't have it. she smugged the hell out of it.

(only consolation is that in the prior segment, a former colleague of mine who always HATED doing TV survived the segment. she wobbled at first, but I don't think very noticeable to the casual viewer.)
   657. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5716068)
Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.

JFC. Donald Trump is on firmer ground in criticizing people for incivility and economic illiteracy than you are in criticizing people for being unable to understand how to use the quote tab.


What on earth are you talking about?


I think he's talking about how you don't understand how to use the quote tab.

You don't typically use the quote tab for other posters as is convention; instead you generally either bold or italicize their comments. Then sometimes, bizarrely, you use the quote box for Poster A but then use mere italics for Poster B.

Ergo, you don't understand how to use the quote tab.

QED, QFT, This, period, end of story.

So lecturing Howie on the subject is quite rich indeed, like me lecturing Lassus on how to be a good Democrat.
   658. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5716070)

Just say she pimped a nutty conspiracy theory to her viewers and move on, already.

She is predisposed to seeing the world that way.


Some of us are able to distinguish between positing that the WH intentionally clipped a transcript for which there is ample video and positing that perhaps Hillary and/or the DNC had Seth Rich killed.

Some of us are not.

As you say, some people are predisposed to seeing the world a certain way.

For example, I'm told that some people have extraordinarily varied and intricately complex interpretations of fellatio.... it's appropriateness, broader contexts, implications, gender relations, etc. You might be surprised how some people manage to position their world view.
   659. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5716072)
WASHINGTON, July 25 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) introduced legislation Wednesday to end money bail, which would prevent people from being locked up before trial solely because they cannot afford their bail. Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.) has introduced a companion bill in the House.


Please let there be a vote. EXPOSE KAMALA!!!
   660. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5716074)
Rudy Giuliani is floating his own "would/wouldn't" alibi for the just-released Michael Cohen tape. Guiliani insists that Donald Trump is telling Michael Cohen "Don't pay with cash" in the part of the tape where Trump is heard saying "Pay with cash."

Want proof? “I’ve got 4,000 hours of Mafia people on tape," said Guiliani on Fox News. "I know how to listen to them, I know how to transcribe them."


More proof that Giuliani is a terrible lawyer. The better argument -- than citing to 4,000 mafia people, how silly -- is that it doesn't matter whether Trump said "Pay with cash" or "Don't pay with cash." Because no matter which Trump said, there's not -- to my knowledge -- any evidence that any payment was made. If no payment was made then there can't be a campaign finance violation.

Also, no matter which Trump said (pay with cash or don't pay with cash), Cohen responded with "No no no," and Trump responded with "Pay by check" and... they agreed to pay by check, not by cash. (Although apparently they didn't follow through to actually make any payment.) Either form of payment could potentially be a campaign finance violation depending on the facts but cash would of course raise further red flags -- but they agreed to pay by check. And we don't know that they ultimately did.

If no payment of any form was made by Team Trump to AMI then no crime was committed on these facts. Please note: A discussion between a client and his or her attorney as to what the available options are (**) is generally not a crime, even if the client suggests a course of action that might be illegal; that's kind of why you're asking questions to your lawyer in the first place, because often you don't know what's legal and what isn't. And if no payment was made then there's no crime here, not even perjury or false statements since Trump hasn't been as stupid as Bill Clinton to say anything under penalty of perjury.

(*) Anyone who claims to know which one Trump said on the tape is lying to you, unless the person is a forensics expert.

(**) Granted if third parties were in the room as it appears -- although it's hard to tell whether they were in the room at the time this issue was discussed -- then privilege could have been waived. But even if privilege was waived there's no crime in discussing what's legal and what isn't or generally in discussing available options.
   661. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5716076)
HAPPY NOW, ########?

John Bolton: "The president believes that the next bilateral meeting with President Putin should take place after the Russia witch hunt is over, so we’ve agreed that it will be after the first of the year."


Not sure why he thinks the witch hunt will be over by then.
   662. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5716078)
No, you won't. As evidenced by the very post you post this claim in (570).

See where you put the comment starting with "Howie..." in bold italics?
See where you put the comment starting with "JFC..." in italics?

See how you don't use the "quote" function for either of those, even though both of those are quoting people?


One of these days one of your precocious daughters will explain to you the difference between "outside articles" and "other people", but since it may be past their bedtime I'll try to spare them the effort.

"Outside articles" refers to (wait for it) articles from outside sources: The Washington Post, National Review, etc.

"Other people" refers to other Primates who are participating in the discussion.

Are you following me now, Bright Boy?


Utterly no difference as far as quoting protocol goes.

You're north of 70,000 posts. Hard to believe you don't understand such a simple convention.
   663. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5716079)
More proof that Giuliani is a terrible lawyer. The better argument is that it doesn't matter whether Trump said "Pay with cash" or "Don't pay with cash." Because no matter which Trump said, there's not -- to my knowledge -- any evidence that any payment was made. If no payment was made then there can't be a campaign finance violation.

....

If no payment of any form was made by Team Trump to AMI then no crime was committed on these facts.
That is not correct; indeed, it's exactly backwards. If AMI bought off McDougal to protect Trump, that would constitute an illegal campaign contribution by AMI. It's only if Trump did reimburse AMI then no crime occurred. (Trump is free to spend as much of his own money as he wants.)
   664. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5716080)
I will largely agree with David that there was no "will of the people" in the 2016 election. I find the concept silly -- like "mandate" is -- because it's generally tyranny of the majority and that's not actually a noble concept though it may be the most fair way we can think of.

Where I disagree with David -- presuming he holds this view -- is that Hillary doesn't have a "will of the people" either. Well, first because she wasn't elected, but more to the point even IF there's such thing as a "will of the people" that we want to grant, 66 million to 63 million ain't it. They were in the same ballpark for votes, so close that Trump prevailed under the rules of the election that were in place. If a candidate wins by 1 vote then there's no "will of the people" there in any meaningful way, so obviously there's a line and in a close election no will of the people can exist.

   665. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5716081)

By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff. But only cops, rather than law abiding citizens, should have guns because cops are so well-trained.
   666. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5716082)
Ray, #661:
John Bolton: "The president believes that the next bilateral meeting with President Putin should take place after the Russia witch hunt is over, so we’ve agreed that it will be after the first of the year."
Not sure why he thinks the witch hunt will be over by then.


(a) It won't be.

And mainly, (b).
   667. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5716083)
Ray, #654:
Good for thee but not for me, Andy? That seems rather hypocritical.


Thunk up any explanation yet for why your "liberals fellate Iran" post wasn't homophobic but everybody else is a vicious gay-basher, Mr. Thee For Me?
   668. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5716085)
That is not correct; indeed, it's exactly backwards. If AMI bought off McDougal to protect Trump, that would constitute an illegal campaign contribution by AMI. It's only if Trump did reimburse AMI then no crime occurred. (Trump is free to spend as much of his own money as he wants.)


I'll cede to your legal analysis, as election law is apparently not patent law. I would have thought that Trump would have had to help coordinate the 150K payment from AMI to MacDougal in order to be on the hook for a campaign finance violation. If merely knowing about the payment qualifies (such that Trump had a legal obligation to report it), then my above analysis was incorrect. (As well as my point that had Trump paid 150K to AMI he would have done something illegal.)

Though as ever the overearching point remains that Rudy knows nothing about the law in this area either :-) He knows nothing about the law in the area he's advising his client in.
   669. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5716086)
By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff.


Saw that. Sadly, not surprising -- either the fact of this or the lack of outrage or at least accountability to flow from it.
   670. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5716087)
By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff.


Not according to cable news!
   671. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5716088)
Thunk up any explanation yet for why your "fellate Iran" post wasn't homophobic but everybody else is a vicious gay-basher, Mr. Thee For Me?


If he did, how we would have time to insist that people "say [maddow] pimped a nutty conspiracy theory to her viewers and move on, already."?

Some things are worth divining and pronouncing in binary fashion and some.... take time.
   672. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5716090)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?
   673. Zonk Rocks You Like a Sharpiecane Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5716091)
and he feels embarrassed now.


Does he?

We don't know.
   674. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5716092)
By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff. But only cops, rather than law abiding citizens, should have guns because cops are so well-trained.

They shouldn't be having a car chase for that far across town. They made it all the way to Silver Lake? It's hard describe to someone how to get there. It's not all that close to a freeway. I thought they stopped those types of car chases.
   675. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5716093)
You don't typically use the quote tab for other posters as is convention; instead you generally either bold or italicize their comments. Then sometimes, bizarrely, you use the quote box for Poster A but then use mere italics for Poster B.

That's when more than one person is being responded to, and it seems silly to keep using the quote tab when you're quoting all of them.

You can (alternately) italicize or bold one of the quote tabs, and that's fine. I've never objected to that, but jeez, you and Bright Boy sure get worked up about the weirdest things. Bright Boy practically seems on a verge of popping a vein over it, and that can't be a good thing.

But here, just to accommodate your tender sensibilities I'll use your preferred method, with quote tabs enclosing each and every one of them in their respective security blankets:
Hypocrisy update:

Ray still opts to not acknowledge that on the one hand, he berates everyone for the "homophobic" use of sexual phrases, while on the other hand he employs those same phrases himself.


I can't imagine what you're talking about, unless you mean this:


5313. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2015 at 01:27 PM (#5006872)

You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.

You can now grade this according to the RDP format. And while you're at it, you can explain how that "fellate Iran" quote of yours is exempt from being labeled homophobia.

Oh, and don't you ever change, either. You're an integral part of the BTF-Entertainment Complex, and I don't know how we could ever survive without you.

   676. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:07 PM (#5716094)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?

You and Ray need to get yourselves a room.
   677. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:12 PM (#5716096)
By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff. But only cops, rather than law abiding citizens, should have guns because cops are so well-trained.

Mike Trout went 0 for 2 last night. Therefore everybody is as good as Mike Trout.
   678. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5716097)
Does he?

We don't know.

And nobody cares either. You have incontrovertible evidence that Ray is arguing in bad faith. This isn't groundbreaking stuff, but congratulations anyway.

Now please move on.
   679. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:20 PM (#5716098)
I, for one, I am curious to see how long it can go on without Ray even acknowledging it.
   680. greenback slays lewks Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5716100)
I, for one, I am curious to see how long it can go on without Ray even acknowledging it.

I think the answer is kinda obvious, but, OK, maybe we should start a pool.

Put me down for never.
   681. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5716104)
I think the answer is kinda obvious, but, OK, maybe we should start a pool.

Put me down for never.


Or maybe we could try to guess the name of the first Trump loyalist here** or in the outside world who breaks ranks and admits that Trump is a racist, and post odds on whether Ray's admission will come before or after that.

** Hi, JE!
   682. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5716106)
Michael Cohen, the hero we don't deserve:

Michael Cohen resents the president's use of him as a "punching bag" and has hit a "reset button" on his relationship with both the president and the media, his attorney said Wednesday.

“He had to hit a reset button,” Lanny Davis, who is representing Cohen as he defends himself from an investigation into possible bank fraud campaign finance violations, told The New York Times.

“He had to say he respected the FBI. He had to say he believed the intelligence agencies that Russia meddled in the election," he continued. He had to describe the Trump Tower meeting as extremely poor judgment at best. And, ultimately, he said, ‘I’m not going to be a punching bag anymore,’ which he had been when he said, ‘I’ll take a bullet.’”
   683. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:52 PM (#5716113)
“He had to say he respected the FBI. He had to say he believed the intelligence agencies that Russia meddled in the election," he continued. He had to describe the Trump Tower meeting as extremely poor judgment at best. And, ultimately, he said, ‘I’m not going to be a punching bag anymore,’ which he had been when he said, ‘I’ll take a bullet.’”


Hard to believe that people credit this unquestionably. Cohen made his own decisions in life. Nobody forced him to represent Trump, and in the manner he did so. And it seems he was paid handsomely for doing so.

Davis's "punching bag" comment makes no sense. At the time Davis made the comment Trump had never been the slightest bit critical of Cohen; quite the opposite, actually.
   684. tshipman Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5716114)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?


Davo, you're the one who objected to the homophobic language in the first place.

I think we're nearing the expiration date of this particular trope, but Ray has richly deserved the drubbing he's gotten on this issue.
   685. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5716116)
Yeah Davo certainly is a weird one to defend a guy calling people "faggot*"

*He has established you don't have to use the word in order to have said it(??)
   686. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5716118)

Mike Trout went 0 for 2 last night. Therefore everybody is as good as Mike Trout.
Well, if he went 0-2, then everyone on the Orioles is.
   687. PepTech Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:12 AM (#5716120)
I think Ray's comment on Iran was a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. It would be interesting, though, to hear the logic regarding how everyone is homophobic but him. That he has continued to berate others for holstering even after his fellating came to light is... remarkable.

You guys giving Andy a hard time over quote box conventions are all being ridiculous. He has a convention and follows it, it's not that hard. So what if it's not *your* convention.
   688. OCF Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5716122)
By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff.

Something like 24 hours before this was publicly acknowledged, I realized for my own sake (and commented so to my wife) that this had be the case. There was just something about the way it was being talked about even before the story came out.
   689. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5716123)
So some of the fringiest Republicans have offered articles of impeachment of Rod Rosenstein. (Jim "What sexual assault?" Jordan and Mark Meadows.) The whole enterprise is frivolous to begin with, and I assume it's not meant to be taken seriously but just to get some free talk radio time, but the best part is that it includes things that happened six months before Rosenstein took office.


Making frivolous cases for impeachment is all the rage these days.

Rosenstein of course should not be impeached, but he should have recused himself from the Russia investigation because he's a witness.

The rest of his actions -- on redactions, on the delay in disclosures, on the instructions to Strzok not to answer questions he should have answered, on the failure to hold uncooperative witnesses in contempt, on the withholding of information from oversight committees -- are all bog standard AG behavior.
   690. Omineca Greg Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:25 AM (#5716124)
Anybody remember that great band from the '80s, "A Flock Of Nightingales"?

Who could forget...

I walk along the avenue
I never thought I'd meet a state like you
Meet a state like you
With bulging شلوار‎ and Persian eyes
The kind of eyes that hypnotize me through
You hypnotize me through

And Iran, Iran's so far away
I just ran, Iran all night and day
I couldn't get away

I get the urge to give some head
I get on my knees and start going down on you
Going down on you
The cloud is moving nearer still
Isfahan is just one city that I blew
City that I blew

And Iran, Iran's so far away
I just ran, Iran all night and day
I couldn't get away

Reached out a hand to stroke your shaft
You're slowly disappearing from my view
'Appearing from my view
Reached out a hand to try again
I'm floating in a beam of light with you
پرتو نور با تو

And Iran, Iran's so far away
I just ran, Iran all night and day
I couldn't get away


Don't make me do "Tainted Love"...

Once Iran to you (Iran)
Now I'll run from you
This tainted love you've given
I give you all a boy could give you
Take my tears and that's not nearly all
Tainted love (oh)
Tainted love


Boy, you don't even have to change that one...
   691. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:39 AM (#5716127)
What's wrong with "Nom nom nom nom nom Iran"?
   692. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:40 AM (#5716128)
Rosenstein of course should not be impeached, but he should have recused himself from the Russia investigation because he's a witness.
Unless he stumbled across a clandestine meeting between Trump and Putin in a back alley in Dundalk while he was serving as U.S. Attorney in Maryland, he's not a witness in the Russia investigation.

(The fake claim that he's a witness contained in the fake impeachment articles is based on him having allegedly having signed off on a FISA renewal application. It's not clear that he did so, but assuming he did, that makes him... law enforcement, not a witness. The fake claim is that not that he's a witness in the Russia investigation, but that he's a witness to "potential FISA abuse." But (a) there was no such abuse; that's just IKYABWAI?, (b) "FISA abuse"is not a thing anyway; and (c) even if it were, that's not the Russia investigation; that's a meta-investigation of the Russia investigation. We don't let subjects of criminal investigations make fake allegations of wrongdoing against law enforcement to pick and choose who is going to investigate them.)
   693. Howie Menckel Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:59 AM (#5716129)
The BBTF tag team of attorneys Dershowitz and Turley both dismissed the merits of a Rosenstein impeachment idea tonight. seems to be a pure - and pointless - grandstand
   694. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 03:54 AM (#5716136)

By the way, I had some free time today, so I read Bad Blood. Even though I knew the basic outline beforehand, it's still an astonishing book. Several other people here have recommended It, and I do too. My biggest criticism is that while it does an excellent job of telling what happened, it leaves more questions than answers as to how it happened. Pretty much everyone who worked there must have known the place was a big fraud -- the book probably has 20 different people quitting (or being thrown out the door) because they spotted the fraud and were alarmed or disgusted. Anyone who was paying attention to what Holmes was promising in public vs. what their equipment could actually do would have seen that. And yet, hundreds of others stayed on, and somehow word didn't get out for years. And somehow Holmes managed to con sophisticated investors and business people for years based on phony financials and phonier technology. (Or maybe it's phony technology and phonier financials.)

The only ones who come across almost as badly as Holmes and her boyfriend are David Boies/Boies Schiller, who are portrayed as little more than thugs in the book.
   695. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:06 AM (#5716137)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?

You and Ray need to get yourselves a room.


To fellate each other. And then blame it on the hippies. “It’s your fault we got so faggy!”
   696. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:12 AM (#5716138)
And somehow Holmes managed to con sophisticated investors and business people for years based on phony financials and phonier technology. (Or maybe it's phony technology and phonier financials.)


I was working at an elite research nonprofit when Theranos became a “thing” and their technology came up during a group meeting. The president of the organization, who is also the smartest person I’ve ever met in my life, said there was zero chance the technology worked as advertised and predicted, “A lot of people are going to lose a lot of money because they’re intentionally misunderstanding the science.”
   697. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:14 AM (#5716139)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?

Davo, you're the one who objected to the homophobic language in the first place.


Why I’m starting to think Ser Davos Teabagworthy might not be arguing in good faith.
   698. manchestermets Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:45 AM (#5716141)
I have already clarified this, but whatever. Forever more tilt against the vague phrase "will of the voters" as you would. The process functioned according to spec, voters voted knowing full well what they were voting for (as much as they ever do) and Trump won. Overturning that legitimate outcome of voting should not be done lightly or on a whim.


Impeachment would not overturn the outcome of the election. Trump won the election and was duly inaugurated. The election also established Pence as next in line should Trump not complete his term; if he were impeached then Pence would become president, honouring the outcome of the election. Making Hillary president would overturn the outcome of the election, but there's no suggestion that would happen.


I still think there's a non-zero chance we end up with President Hatch at some point as the endgame of this thing plays out.


How would that happen? If Pence is dragged in, isn't it more likely to be President Pelosi (other potential Democrat speakers are available)? What would it take for it all to come crashing down (and dragging in not just Pence but also Ryan) before November?
   699. manchestermets Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:46 AM (#5716142)
The last claim is... well, I don't even know what; what's the word for something that's trying to sound profound but is actually just meaningless?


Libertarianism?
   700. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:58 AM (#5716143)
Sick burn.
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