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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   701. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:58 AM (#5716144)
   702. homerwannabee Posted: July 26, 2018 at 06:00 AM (#5716145)
Some thoughts on the upcoming elections.
1. When Joe Manchin is up by 10 points in a state that overwhelmingly voted for Trump, you know the Republicans are in trouble.
2. Yes, the Democrats will do better than expected. Just look at 2010. The party that loses all power tends to be more active in voting.
3. Don't be surprised when conservatives go with this mantra, "But Trump did better than Obama, and so this means nothing for 2020 because Obama got reelected."
4. The articles of impeachments by some Republicans will backfire big time. Trump supporters will be ticked off that Rosenstein isn't actually getting impeached, and will see Republicans in congress as incompotent. Democrats will see this as either A)Grand standing (Correct answer), or B) An attempt to destroy democracy as we know it. (Incorrect answer, but an answer that most Democrats will conclude with.) Basically Democrats are helped by this impeachment "attempt" when it comes to the 2018 elections.
5. The Mueller investigation will be interesting. Supposedly they were supposed to wrap this up by September if Trump gave an interview in mid July. If Trump is able to delay the investigation by dragging his feet on doing an interview, will Mueller announce the results in October or even late October knowing full well that his investigation is going to have an impact on the November elections?
   703. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:00 AM (#5716149)
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?

Davo, you're the one who objected to the homophobic language in the first place.

Why I’m starting to think Ser Davos Teabagworthy might not be arguing in good faith.

Davo seems like a troll sent our way by Julian Assange, nominally a leftist but nearly always much angrier at liberals than at any other group. I'm not sure why anyone pays any attention to him for any purposes other than anthropological, but whatever.
   704. . Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:10 AM (#5716151)
Italics light: You
Italics bold: Me


A bunch of people have told Andy his system is tough to follow, and it is, and the only reason it's that way is because he's the only person here who re-quotes himself virtually every post. It's purely a product of his narcissism.


   705. . Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:29 AM (#5716152)
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "fellate Iran" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just TDS.

   706. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:33 AM (#5716153)
Sick burn Fake Lawyer. Now finish those hippies off with a devestating “I know you are but what am I”.
   707. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:33 AM (#5716154)
he's the only person here who re-quotes himself. It's purely a product of his narcissism.

Quoting yourself for clarity of conversation is not narcissism. CITNG YOURSELF and your own posts - which you do constantly - is narcissism.

You couldn't possibly be any more clueless.
   708. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:37 AM (#5716155)
Is that a challenge? Because I wouldn’t want to make that challenge to Fake Lawyer, the Bungee Cord Bronson.
   709. . Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:42 AM (#5716156)
Quoting yourself for clarity of conversation is not narcissism.


Yeah, it actually is -- particularly when, as virtually everyone has noted, the posting becomes less clear as a result.
   710. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:48 AM (#5716157)
Well this should get the Little Lord aroused and turgid.

The inevitable has finally happened. Well, almost. Kelsey Grammer, star and executive producer of the 90s sitcom hit Frasier, is apparently taking meetings with writers pitching ideas for a potential reboot. According to Deadline, the new series would likely be set in a new city—much as Frasier moved the psychiatrist from Boston to Seattle—and Frasier Crane would serve as the link to the new series, establishing it in the same universe as Frasier and Cheers.


Do you think the Little Lord would fellate Kelsey Grammer in exchange for a cameo on the new Frazier reboot? In the absence of evidence to the contrary and given his intense obsession with fellatio on a grand scale, I’m going to have to guess “yes”.

Since Grammer was an enthusiastic supporter of the Great War of Adventure in Iraq, it makes perfect sense for the “new city” to be Baghdad.
   711. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 07:59 AM (#5716158)
Yeah, it actually is -- particularly when, as virtually everyone has noted, the posting becomes less clear as a result.

Words mean things, but we'll let that go.

So citing yourself and your own posts is what, then, in comparison? This oughtta be good.
   712. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:26 AM (#5716165)
Write your own joke re the headline - Trump Sags In Midwest

“In three politically important Midwest states — including two that were key in deciding the 2016 election — President Donald Trump’s job approval rating is below 40 percent, and Democrats hold a sizable lead for the upcoming congressional midterms,” according to a trio of new NBC News/Marist polls.

“In Michigan, which Trump won by nearly 11,000 votes, 36% of registered voters approve of the president’s job, while 54% disapprove.”

“In Wisconsin, which he won by about 23,000 votes, another 36% give Trump a thumbs up, with 52% giving him a thumbs down.”

“And in Minnesota, which Trump narrowly lost by 1.5 percentage points, his rating stands at 38% approve, 51% disapprove.”



Additionally we have here - on and off - talked about retirements. Well here is the (mostly) final list - Here Are All The Republicans Retiring From Congress In 2018

Depending on how you count, 39 Republicans and 18 Democrats are not running for re-election. That includes 13 Republicans and 10 Democrats who are leaving to seek another office, such as governor. Excluding them, 26 Republicans and eight Democrats are walking away from their political careers at the end of the 115th Congress. That’s the most “pure” retirements by Republicans — and the fewest by Democrats — since the 2008 election.


GOP President Trump has sagging ratings and GOP political critters are retiring in record numbers (while Democrats the reverse). All signs continue to point to a blue wave. Here's hoping.
   713. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5716167)
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "fellate Iran" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just TDS.


Oh shut up, that is moronic, even for you.

Ray LOVES to chide people. Now that he's been caught and again exposed as a hypocrite and a troll, he needs to be humiliated. It's got nothing to do with Trump. Ray has behaved this way for as long as I've been aware of his pathetic existence.
   714. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5716168)

I was working at an elite research nonprofit when Theranos became a “thing” and their technology came up during a group meeting. The president of the organization, who is also the smartest person I’ve ever met in my life, said there was zero chance the technology worked as advertised and predicted, “A lot of people are going to lose a lot of money because they’re intentionally misunderstanding the science.”
Yeah, but according to the book, whenever someone questioned how it could be possible, Holmes would just chant the word "proprietary" three times in a row and everyone would sagely nod their heads and say, "Oh, now I see. Ok."
   715. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5716169)
Rosenstein of course should not be impeached, but he should have recused himself from the Russia investigation because he's a witness.

Unless he stumbled across a clandestine meeting between Trump and Putin in a back alley in Dundalk while he was serving as U.S. Attorney in Maryland, he's not a witness in the Russia investigation.

(The fake claim that he's a witness contained in the fake impeachment articles is based on him having allegedly having signed off on a FISA renewal application. It's not clear that he did so, but assuming he did, that makes him... law enforcement, not a witness. The fake claim is that not that he's a witness in the Russia investigation, but that he's a witness to "potential FISA abuse." But (a) there was no such abuse; that's just IKYABWAI?, (b) "FISA abuse"is not a thing anyway; and (c) even if it were, that's not the Russia investigation; that's a meta-investigation of the Russia investigation. We don't let subjects of criminal investigations make fake allegations of wrongdoing against law enforcement to pick and choose who is going to investigate them.)


No, it's because Rosenstein is a witness in Mueller's obstruction investigation over the firing of Comey, given the memo Rosenstein wrote describing Comey's misconduct, and the circumstances surrounding the memo, such as who asked him to write it, why, what Rosenstein was told about why Trump was unhappy with Comey, etc.

(Actually, Mueller is also a witness, having been interviewed by Trump for Comey's job a day before Rosenstein appointed him as special counsel. The firing of Comey had to have come up in that interview.)
   716. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5716171)
Supposedly they were supposed to wrap this up by September if Trump gave an interview in mid July.
That was literally never ever ever true. It was just something Giuliani and some other random Trump lackeys were saying. Mueller has never given a timetable.
   717. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:45 AM (#5716174)
Yeah, it actually is -- particularly when, as virtually everyone has noted, the posting becomes less clear as a result.


YOU'RE gonna jump on the "your posts are unclear" bandwagon? YOU?!?
   718. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:46 AM (#5716175)
Yeah, but according to the book, whenever someone questioned how it could be possible, Holmes would just chant the word "proprietary" three times in a row and everyone would sagely nod their heads and say, "Oh, now I see. Ok."


I know several folks in the IVDD world and I don't recall any of them being enthusiastic about the Theranos technology. Since you read the book, is one of the conclusions that the enthusiasm from the investor class completely overwhelmed the skepticism from the scientific class?
   719. dlf Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:47 AM (#5716176)
By the way, I had some free time today, so I read Bad Blood. Even though I knew the basic outline beforehand, it's still an astonishing book. ...


It's been on my night stand for a bit and I've been meaning to get to it. This morning on the way to the office I was listening to a podcast where the guest was Bethany McLean, author of Smartest Guys in the Room about the Enron fiasco. The difference between fraudster and visionary is very narrow and difficult to see from the outside. I wonder how much Ms. Holmes believed her own press versus how much she was intentionally pulling a fast one, but then I realize that some of the folks perpetuating the biggest financial and political acts of misconduct truly believe in what they are selling even when what they are selling is objectively baloney. Is Elon Musk next up? The cars seem visionary, but the financial position, especially post acquisition of Solar City, his brother's (brother-in-law?) company, seems odd.

The only ones who come across almost as badly as Holmes and her boyfriend are David Boies/Boies Schiller, who are portrayed as little more than thugs in the book.


David Boies is one of the most brilliant trial and appellate attorneys of his generation and his firm is incredibly well respected. But this is another in a long series of examples of people who are brilliant in one field thinking that their brilliance will carry over to all other fields. From the infamous Long-Term Capital Management to some of the posters here who go well outside of their throwing lanes to opine on areas well outside their experience or expertise ...
   720. Jay Z Posted: July 26, 2018 at 08:57 AM (#5716180)
Impeachment would not overturn the outcome of the election. Trump won the election and was duly inaugurated. The election also established Pence as next in line should Trump not complete his term; if he were impeached then Pence would become president, honouring the outcome of the election. Making Hillary president would overturn the outcome of the election, but there's no suggestion that would happen.


Seconded.

Talking about "the will of the people" is like Nixon bringing up McGovern in defense of Watergate.

Impeachment is a vague act, there partly as a legal act, partly in case of massive unpopularity. Being POTUS is a privilege. I was okay with Andrew Johnson almost going due to his decisions as POTUS. Meaning that POTUS can be impeached simply for making decisions, repeatedly, that a whole mess of people disagree with.

Elections are just a vote in time, not a suicide pact.
   721. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5716181)
But this is another in a long series of examples of people who are brilliant in one field thinking that their brilliance will carry over to all other fields.

Wisdom. Also...


699. manchestermets Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:46 AM (#5716142)

[DMN] The last claim is... well, I don't even know what; what's the word for something that's trying to sound profound but is actually just meaningless?

Libertarianism?
Primey-worthy.


   722. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5716182)
Being POTUS is a privilege. I was okay with Andrew Johnson almost going due to his decisions as POTUS.


You didn't say #### at the time. How convenient.
   723. The Fallen Reputation of Billy Jo Robidoux Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:03 AM (#5716183)
This morning on the way to the office I was listening to a podcast where the guest was Bethany McLean, author of Smartest Guys in the Room about the Enron fiasco


Which podcast, dlf?
   724. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:03 AM (#5716184)
Impeachment is a vague act, there partly as a legal act, partly in case of massive unpopularity. Being POTUS is a privilege. I was okay with Andrew Johnson almost going due to his decisions as POTUS. Meaning that POTUS can be impeached simply for making decisions, repeatedly, that a whole mess of people disagree with.


I love when Johnson comes up - mostly because it makes Clapper all pouty - but I'd also point out that one of the articles of impeachment against Johnson was actually just 'bringing disgrace and ridicule to the presidency'.
   725. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:13 AM (#5716186)
I love when Johnson comes up


ಠ_ಠ
   726. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5716190)
David Boies is one of the most brilliant trial and appellate attorneys of his generation and his firm is incredibly well respected. But this is another in a long series of examples of people who are brilliant in one field thinking that their brilliance will carry over to all other fields.
Oh, I’m not sure that’s exactly applicable here; after all, he did manage to stave off problems for her for quite a while. But his conduct was much like we now know his conduct in representing Harvey Weinstein was: intimidating and/or incentivizing potentially hostile witnesses. If Carreyrou had not been backed by the WSJ - and Rupert Murdoch comes across as one of the heroes here - he might have folded too.

I wonder how much Ms. Holmes believed her own press versus how much she was intentionally pulling a fast one, but then I realize that some of the folks perpetuating the biggest financial and political acts of misconduct truly believe in what they are selling even when what they are selling is objectively baloney.
You don’t get a definitive answer to that from the book, especially since she and her small inner circle chose not to speak to Carreyrou. (Given their potential criminal liability, that was wise.) You get the sense that she was ruthlessly ambitious for her own sake, and that once she had hitched her ambition to this vehicle, she had no choice but to double, triple, quadruple down. (She wanted to be the female Steve Jobs, but didn’t know how.) It’s tempting to say she got in over her head when she couldn’t deliver, except that the book has her firing her CFO early in Theranos’s existence when he pointed out that faking demos for investors/customers was... fraud-y.
   727. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:29 AM (#5716195)
Impeachment would not overturn the outcome of the election. Trump won the election and was duly inaugurated. The election also established Pence as next in line should Trump not complete his term; if he were impeached then Pence would become president, honouring the outcome of the election. Making Hillary president would overturn the outcome of the election, but there's no suggestion that would happen.


You guys always ignore the cost involved in impeachment. Also the fact that it is not going to happen absent something massive coming from Mueller, for a whole host of reasons.

I find the weird "OMG you are not yet for this thing that almost never happens and totally won't happen now? How dare you!" to be a bit ridiculous.

It is not ging to happen any time soon, so why bother agitating about it? I guess if you think talking about it helps the nation somehow (I disagree); or talking about it makes you feel better (fine, but not for me); or perhaps it awards political advantage for your side (I disagree again); or maybe you think I is just the "right thing to do" (your opinion, but I still disagree).

Trump is a disaster, a liar, crook, and con man. I get why people want him out, but seriously that is why we have elections. Elections matter and in 2016 we lost and Trump won.
   728. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5716197)
[DMN] The last claim is... well, I don't even know what; what's the word for something that's trying to sound profound but is actually just meaningless?

Libertarianism?

Primey-worthy.


Yeah that was wasted as the 99th post on a page. Libertarianism is just anarchy with a formal mechanism in place to protect wealth at gunpoint.
   729. BrianBrianson Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5716202)
John Bolton: "The president believes that the next bilateral meeting with President Putin should take place after the Russia witch hunt is over, so we’ve agreed that it will be after the first of the year."


Not sure why he thinks the witch hunt will be over by then.


Four hundred billion years in the future is "after the first of the year".
   730. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5716204)

It is not ging to happen any time soon, so why bother agitating about it? I guess if you think talking about it helps the nation somehow (I disagree); or talking about it makes you feel better (fine, but not for me); or perhaps it awards political advantage for your side (I disagree again); or maybe you think I is just the "right thing to do" (your opinion, but I still disagree).


There's another reason - the foundation needs to be laid.

Not framing it this way to pick a fight with you - but hear me out...

Let's say Mueller issues a final report that contains one or more items that meets your own bar for bringing articles to the House floor. That's not going to change the broader equation much.

I guarantee that not one of the Trumpkins will jump ship - they'll Dersh it all the way down. Indeed, as we've all discussed many, many, many times - this is wholly and entirely why Trump is witch hunting, Carter Page has become a martyr, Fake News, yada yada.

Team Trump has laying the foundation to defend against an impeachment for better than a year. It's only logical to counter that with a foundation to yield a conviction.

It's the flip side of the "impeachment is a political mechanism"... where even a clear and obvious crime won't automatically lead to impeachment if public support for impeachment isn't north of ~60%. Getting to that 60% is going to requite a coalition - some of those folks necessary - like yourself, have laid out a clear mechanism to get there... and that's fine... but not every remainder of the ~15-20% or so still needed is going to come in a single chunk.

So, I don't really have a problem with some folks having a clear trigger mechanism and knowing that it's going to require a Mueller 'something' (or whatever) to get there... that's fine - but if that's just another 5% chunk, that still leaves more chunks needed.
   731. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5716208)
Not framing it this way to pick a fight with you - but hear me out...


No, I agree with this. Actually I laid it out (in summary form) as "political advantage" and I see the argument, I just don't think it helps all that much, and that it costs more in net.

Basically, unless it is something very dramatic that causes even GOP politicians to sit up and take notice (i.e. threatens their positions) I don't see impeachment as feasible. Of course if that happens, it will happen very quickly and I would expect a quick deployment of "Conservatism didn't fail, Trump failed conservatism" nonsense.

But overall I don't disagree strongly with your post, but it doesn't explain why those of us here who are skeptical currently about impeachment get grief about that stand. Other than ... well ... everyone gets grief here I guess.

   732. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5716211)
There's another reason - the foundation needs to be laid.
I think that’s right. You want people to be saying, “We’re not there yet,” so that people are contemplating getting there at some point.
   733. BDC Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5716214)
I agree with zonk in that I can't imagine anything happening – like, literally, ####### anything at this point – that would cause Trump to lose Republican backing in the Senate. And thus I see Mouse's point about why bother talking about impeachment.

It is interesting to note that if a tape had appeared in 1998-99 featuring Bill Clinton discussing cash payments to Monica Lewinsky for her silence, he'd have been removed. I think the only people who doubt that are real cynics about the depths of partisanship. Republicans abandoned Nixon over the "smoking gun" tape 45 years ago, and Democrats, 20 years ago, would have done the same to Clinton.

Things have changed. I am not sure that it's only Republicans who've changed, but Republicans certainly have changed. 20 years ago we heard a lot of earnest talk from the GOP about how a lying adulterer couldn't be entrusted with the grave responsibilities of the Presidency. Them days are over.

   734. BDC Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5716217)
I guess the other thing that bemuses me about the Michael Cohen saga is, why pay off these women in the first place? Clearly nobody on the right even cares about Trump's coverup of his sexual adventures; they must care far less about the adventures themselves. How could Trump have been hurt if these women had talked? It's almost like he had forgotten about his own life history, about Marla Maples and all that tabloid news in the '90s, which only made him that much more famous.
   735. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5716221)
Michael Avenatti just said on Twitter that there are unreleased tapes from the Cohen stockpile discussing possible problems with pregnancies.
   736. Howie Menckel Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5716225)
imagine a world where there are more than a dozen adult offspring of Trump and ladies of questionable virtue
   737. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5716226)
You know, I was wondering if there was going to be a news story this weekend out of Cooperstown with a Muay Thai/stretchy band battle in the crowd. Reffed by Chipper and Morris, who spotted their jerseys circling each other Thunderdome style.
   738. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5716227)
Michael Avenatti just said on Twitter that there are unreleased tapes from the Cohen stockpile discussing possible problems with pregnancies.

Hmmmmmm, if Trump had a Latino love child, how would that play with his base?

Of course if Trump literally raped a Latino woman, his hard core defenders would just say it proves he's not prejudiced.
   739. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5716228)
Michael Avenatti just said on Twitter that there are unreleased tapes from the Cohen stockpile discussing possible problems with pregnancies.

We need audio of Wrestlemania President:
FAKE NEWS! I pulled out.
   740. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5716229)
How many abortions would Trump have to have paid for to lose the snake-handling wing of the Republican party?
   741. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5716230)
Michael Avenatti just said on Twitter that there are unreleased tapes from the Cohen stockpile discussing possible problems with pregnancies.


Much as he might be the only legal pro in the country who likes green rooms more than Dershowitz and as such, I'm loathe to care about what he has to say...

I imagine a paid-for abortion might be the one and only thing that shakes loose that evangelical support... maybe.

It's rather ironic - beyond various financial transaction malfeasance/campaign finance/yada yada - there are no shortage of perfectly legal paths whereby a fella might pay for a sally on the side's abortion. Yet - something like that feels to me like it would be the single most damaging thing to come out for Trump.

But again, it's Avenatti.
   742. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5716231)
imagine a world where there are more than a dozen adult offspring of Trump and ladies of questionable virtue


Hmmmmmm, if Trump had a Latino love child, how would that play with his base?


The danger - to Trump - isn't offspring.

It's pregnancy with a lack of offspring.
   743. BrianBrianson Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5716233)
How many abortions would Trump have to have paid for to lose the snake-handling wing of the Republican party?


I think, one can't think of trying to land a fatal blow, but gunning for death by a thousand cuts.
   744. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5716236)
I imagine a paid-for abortion might be the one and only thing that shakes loose that evangelical support... maybe.


Only maybe. "He was a Democrat when he did it," "That was before Jesus washed him clean of his sins," "The Lord uses sinful men to perform his godly works," etc etc etc.

Never forget the average Republican voter is a Creationist. They've intentionally cultivated a base of the most ignorant, easily-deluded people in America.
   745. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5716238)
How many abortions would Trump have to have paid for to lose the snake-handling wing of the Republican party?


Skittish to place the bet, but my money would still be on One.

Not the whole boat, mind you - but a big enough chunk that it would really hurt him. REALLY hurt him.

   746. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5716240)
Only maybe. "He was a Democrat when he did it," "That was before Jesus washed him clean of his sins," "The Lord uses sinful men to perform his godly works," etc etc etc.

Never forget the average Republican voter is a Creationist. They've intentionally cultivated a base of the most ignorant, easily-deluded people in America.


I suppose the continued career of Scott DesJarlais in congress is pretty good indicator you might be right.

But who knows...

In any case, a guy in the low 40s doesn't really have a lot of spare points to shed.
   747. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5716244)
Will anyone take the hint? Justice Kagan: "Confirmation Process Makes Supreme Court Look Like Junior Varsity Politicians":
Justice Elena Kagan said Wednesday that partisan battles over Supreme Court nominations makes the court look like "junior varsity politicians."
. . .
"There have certainly been periods where the expectation has been that if you have a certain set of qualifications and if you looked like you were going to be a responsible judge, even if somebody thinks that there is going to be some set of rulings which they'll disagree with, the expectation was, nonetheless the President was entitled to his Supreme Court pick," Kagan said.

Justice Ginsburg said much the same thing recently, but there doesn't appear to be any indication that the Justices stance has affected Senate Democrats.
   748. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5716250)
I get the increasing impression that Clapper realizes his Orange Goose just might have #### out its last egg....
   749. Davo Posted: July 26, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5716259)
Never forget the average Republican voter is a Creationist. They've intentionally cultivated a base of the most ignorant, easily-deluded people in America.

And yet they kick our ####### ass every election.
   750. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5716262)
I think the Republican party candidate has gotten more votes than the Democratic presidential candidate exactly once in since 1992, and that's even with a base of credulous rubes and yokels who think Jesus rode a dinosaur, climate change is a hoax, and Obama was an African savage with a fake birth certificate.
   751. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5716265)
My ass doesn't feel kicked.
   752. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5716266)
And yet they kick our ####### ass every election.


They are in charge now, in 2008 it was reversed. There is a fair percentage of voters who just vote against those in charge, no matter what.
   753. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5716268)
I suppose the continued career of Scott DesJarlais in congress is pretty good indicator you might be right.

God forgave him. Why can't you?
   754. PepTech Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5716277)
Your Daily Hypocrisy Update!

Ray types this with a straight face:
While people will wonder if Maddow will Apologize for her nuttiness, or whether her viewers will acknowledge it -- first they'd have to recognize it
And this!
So lecturing Howie others on the subject [of using oral sex imagery] is quite rich indeed, like me lecturing Lassus the entire board on how to be a good Democrat employ oral sex imagery.
Also, this comment appeared:
Holy ####, he ###### up like a year ago, you caught him, and he feels embarrassed now. Can we move the #### on you cretins?
Clearly he does *not* feel embarrassed, since he has continued to berate others for their use of "holstering" even after, and without acknowledging, his own "fellating". And, it should be noted, he didn't #### up; he employed perfectly reasonable imagery to make a point - for which he then hypocritically virtue signals away at others.

The point is, and this should be made clear over and over again, is that failure to address this hypocrisy should bring into question every he types on every topic. Is this a dead horse? Sure. Nonetheless, the Daily Hypocrisy Update will continue insofar as the usual suspects provide sufficient material. True liberals understand this.

----------

Speaking of which, on the SBB front:
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "fellate Iran" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just TDS.
Let's rephrase:
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "cockholster" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just trollery.
Kind of... rolls off your tongue, doesn't it? ;)

This could be fun!
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "Decline" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just trollery.
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "modern liberal" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just trollery.
One would hope that the sheer number of times the usual suspects have repeated the "TDS" thing reflects some internal knowingness of how ridiculous it is, and in normal times that mechanism would in fact be at work ... but unfortunately, it's just trollery.
The DHU is presented as a public service. Thank you for your time.

ETA: Plus the whole "narcissist" thing, from the poster who continually employs "in this space" and the like. Priceless!!!
   755. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5716278)
I agree with zonk in that I can't imagine anything happening – like, literally, ####### anything at this point – that would cause Trump to lose Republican backing in the Senate. And thus I see Mouse's point about why bother talking about impeachment.
I can: a GOP bloodbath at the polls in November. Republicans in both houses of Congress still mostly support Trump because they think it's the best way to keep their jobs. If Trump does become a millstone around their necks,¹ then they'll turn on him.



¹:Or a Rosetta Stone. (For our usenet alums.)
   756. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5716282)
Clearly he does *not* feel embarrassed, since he has continued to berate others for their use of "holstering" even after, and without acknowledging, his own "fellating". And, it should be noted, he didn't #### up; he employed perfectly reasonable imagery to make a point - for which he then hypocritically virtue signals away at others.


FWIW, I did a count of Ray's lecture on the matter vs demands for an explanation and the count stands at 322 vs 71 (I'm counting this one in the 71).

   757. Davo Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5716283)
@haircut_hippie
(you, dumb): we should pay workers more
(me, has taken econ 101): you see where this line meets that line? that’s why the poor should starve
   758. Davo Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5716284)
750 I think the Republican party candidate has gotten more votes than the Democratic presidential candidate exactly once in since 1992


Cool, and by pythag records the Rays are goin to the playoffs.
   759. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5716285)
Cool, and by pythag records the Rays are goin to the playoffs.


No they're not.

They'd leapfrog Seattle - but fall behind the Angels, and they'd actually trail the A's and Yankees by more than they do now.

EDIT: Oops - my bad. They'd still trail 3 teams but their deficit would be roughly what it is now.
   760. homerwannabee Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5716289)
There is one thing he could do that would lose his stranglehold on the Republican party. Nope it's not having strippers in the oval office. It's not him being caught with an 18 year old. But the unforgivable sin for Trump would be to declare, "I decided I am going to be part of the Democratic party again."
Virtually overnight he'd lose two thirds of his base.
   761. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5716290)
Cool, and by pythag records the Rays are goin to the playoffs.


No they're not. Pythag WC standings:

NYY - 63-37
OAK - 55-48
LAA - 54-49
TBR - 53-49

Just like the real standings, the Rays have one team between them and the second WC.
   762. PepTech Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5716295)
There is one thing he could do that would lose his stranglehold on the Republican party. Nope it's not having strippers in the oval office. It's not him being caught with an 18 year old. But the unforgivable sin for Trump would be to declare, "I decided I am going to be part of the Democratic party again."
Actually, as noted above, having paid off an abortion after, say, 2012 would probably do the trick, as well.
   763. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5716296)
Count me among those who doubt that.
   764. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5716297)
741

But again, it's Avenatti.


Ever since the words "Stormy" and "Daniels" first came together in the popular lexicon, I've been saying I don't trust Avenatti as far as I could throw him...and he really could fcuk the whole thing up.
   765. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5716298)
750 I think the Republican party candidate has gotten more votes than the Democratic presidential candidate exactly once in since 1992

Cool, and by pythag records the Rays are goin to the playoffs.


I'll add-on to #759 and 761 to note that if you're willing to just make #### up for fake "pwning the libs" points all sorts of things are possible.
   766. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5716299)
Count me among those who doubt that.


I think the only chance would be if he paid for an abortion *after* taking office and even then it's probably 50/50 ...
   767. spycake Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5716300)
As long as paid for it with his own personal money, he's fine.

Maybe one could justify charging it to the secret service budget too.
   768. PepTech Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5716301)
I think the only chance would be if he paid for an abortion *after* taking office and even then it's probably 50/50 ...
Maybe. There's an awful lot of Catholics (and I'm sure some others) who are decidedly *not* pliant on this. If there's any single issue a certain segment is rabid over, it's pro-life. Murder is murder.

I've had a number of conversations both before and after the election, and this in a blue state, regarding an absolute refusal to vote for anyone who is pro-choice^. Perhaps a particular strain of TDS would allow such a voter to follow the "do as he says, not as he does" path, but I dunno.

^ And a willingness to compromise on everything else, to ensure that plank.
   769. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5716306)
I think the only chance would be if he paid for an abortion *after* taking office and even then it's probably 50/50 ...


Meh - again, his "evangelical" support isn't going to drop to zero... He could hold a televised press conference in the oval office dressed up like Jesus and play-act coitus with someone dressed up like Charles Darwin in the middle of a pentagram drawn over the Great Seal and he probably still keeps 50% or so.

That 85% or so dropping to 75% or so would still be an awfully big problem for him.

Low 40s is bad. 30s is disastrous.
   770. zenbitz Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5716308)

By the way, cops killed the person who died in the Trader Joe's standoff. But only cops, rather than law abiding citizens, should have guns because cops are so well-trained.


False dichotomy.
   771. Davo Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5716309)
There are other things (besides paying for an abortion) the tapes could reveal that would meaningfully reduce his support. Sex with a minor, sex with a guy, sex with a Latinx, etc.

Again, nothing that will crater his support, but his approval numbers are so low that even a 5-10% drop is deadly.
   772. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5716311)
That 85% or so dropping to 75% or so would still be an awfully big problem for him.

Low 40s is bad. 30s is disastrous.
Heck, given how narrow his margin was in 2016, a 1% drop would likely be sufficient to cost him re-election.


That having been said, I think Peptech underestimates the ability to rationalize. Most pro-lifers will say, "Yeah, personally he's bad... but he appoints pro-life judges, and that's what really matters. Why would I allow a pro-abortion Democrat to replace Trump just because of one abortion, when millions are at stake?" A bigger problem for Trump would be if Kavanaugh is confirmed, the Supreme Court hears another abortion case, and it doesn't overturn (or at least severely limit) Roe/Casey.
   773. PepTech Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5716312)
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and perform an abortion and not lose votes"
   774. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5716314)
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and perform an abortion and not lose votes"

Well, since he's already shot Uncle Sam, what's a little abortion among friends?
   775. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5716315)
Most pro-lifers


are not pro-life; they're pro-birth and anti-sex.
   776. zenbitz Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5716316)
Re:Bad Blood - they finally took down the Theranos sign from down the block a couple months ago.
   777. BrianBrianson Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5716318)
are not pro-life; they're pro-birth and anti-sex.


Some of them have a dozen or more rugrats - their anti-sex attitudes have limits.
   778. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5716319)
are not pro-life; they're pro-birth and anti-sex.


Some of them have a dozen or more rugrats - their anti-sex attitudes have limits.


Well, TV was pretty bad not too long ago, so...
   779. dlf Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5716320)
Which podcast, dlf?


Patrick O'Shaunesy's "Invest Like the Best" Crappy interviewer, but often has interesting guests.
   780. homerwannabee Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5716321)
Nope, changing party is the only real thing that will get him to lose support. See, no matter he does personally they would justify that as something that only affects Trump and whoever he did it to. But policy is a much bigger ball of wax. Then what he does affects the entire country. Millions of people are influenced by what he does policy wise. So say he pays for 10 abortions while in office, that won't matter so much to an Evangelical because he would stop millions abortions if he chooses the right Supreme Court pick.

Basically Trump's contract with Evangelicals is this. As long as Trump does what Evangelicals want policy wise, he can do what he well pleases in his personal life.
   781. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5716323)
Basically Trump's contract with Evangelicals is this. As long as Trump does what Evangelicals want policy wise, he can do what he well pleases in his personal life.

This. The only saving grace is that his base doesn't consist solely of evangelicals. A few of them might actually care about his personal morals.
   782. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5716324)
I'd dearly like to believe "I guess we'll find out"... but again... Green Room Mike.... so I'll remain skeptical we will.
   783. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5716326)
Ever since the words "Stormy" and "Daniels" first came together in the popular lexicon, I've been saying I don't trust Avenatti as far as I could throw him...and he really could fcuk the whole thing up.

Avenatti is no one to emulate. Has he actually done anything useful at all in regards to Trump other than crow about WHAT'S COMING ANY MINUTE LOOK OUT?
   784. DavidFoss Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5716327)
Since we are talking about Cohen, do we know yet what exactly inspired the warrant which led to the raid of his office? I mean, once investigators are in there, I am sure they will find lots of stuff, but what was the probable cause which inspired the warrant in the first place? I have a hard time believing its just the Daniels/McDougal stuff.
   785. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5716329)
@MichaelAvenatti: And for the haters out there, check my track record. I don’t make claims that are nonsense.
   786. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5716330)
Avenatti is no one to emulate. Has he actually done anything useful at all in regards to Trump other than crow about WHAT'S COMING ANY MINUTE LOOK OUT?


He's basically the equivalent of a football kickoff 'gunner'... most gunners are not Steve Tasker, but they still fill a purpose, such as it is.
   787. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5716331)
On Avenetti -- while he's a shameless self promoter, his PR instincts are about as good as it gets on the "left" (here meaning basically just anti-Trump). He knows how to frame a story and how to react to one. He has mastered the art of the slow leak twitter story, which the press eats up regardless of the veracity or specifics. I think he's as good of a foil to Trump as the "left" could hope for.

On impeachment -- mouse you continue to believe that impeachment weakens the Democrats. I just don't see it. Even a failed impeachment, during Clinton's 2nd term, significantly reduced Clinton's political capitol. Secondly, you have an odd commitment to both "impeachment is a political process" and "Elections are Forever". Those two positions aren't compatible and the US has many mechanisms, including impeachment, to remove elected officials that while having won a snapshot in time, are no longer fit to serve -- for whatever reason. And in this particular case impeachment would still leave the GOP in charge of the executive branch should it be successful. Hard to get too up in arms about that.

   788. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5716332)
784

Since we are talking about Cohen, do we know yet what exactly inspired the warrant which led to the raid of his office? I mean, once investigators are in there, I am sure they will find lots of stuff, but what was the probable cause which inspired the warrant in the first place? I have a hard time believing its just the Daniels/McDougal stuff.


IANAL, so I don't know for sure, but it was SDNY that obtained the warrant and conducted the raid. They tend to be pretty tight-lipped over there nowadays.
   789. McCoy Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5716334)
I can: a GOP bloodbath at the polls in November. Republicans in both houses of Congress still mostly support Trump because they think it's the best way to keep their jobs. If Trump does become a millstone around their necks,¹ then they'll turn on him.

Unless a large chunk of them that keep their jobs or get one are Trumpublicans in which case the Republican party becomes more hardcore Trump supporters.
   790. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5716337)
Bravo, PepTech. Ray is likely to put you on ignore (if he hasn't already). The service you are performing is righteous.
   791. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5716338)
Since this morning's OTP seems even more speculative than usual - today's NYT column pre-reporting on Trump's 2020 re-election:
In the end, a bitterly fought election came down to the old political aphorism, popularized during Bill Clinton’s successful 1992 run against George H.W. Bush: “It’s the economy, stupid.” This time, however, it was the Republican incumbent, not his Democratic challenger, who benefited from that truism.

Donald J. Trump has been decisively re-elected as president of the United States, winning every state he carried in 2016 and adding Nevada, even as he once again failed, albeit narrowly, to gain a majority of the popular vote. Extraordinary turnout in California, New York, Illinois and other Democratic bastions could not compensate for the president’s abiding popularity in the states that still decide who gets to live in the White House: Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida.

Yet, unlike 2016, last night’s outcome came neither as a political upset nor as a global shock. Mr. Trump and Vice President Mike Pence have consistently polled ahead of Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and her running mate, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio, since July. The New York Times correctly predicted the outcome of the race in every state, another marked change from 2016.

In exit poll interviews, Mr. Trump’s supporters frequently cited the state of the economy to explain their vote. “What part of Dow 30,000 do the liberals not understand?” Kevin O’Reilly of Manchester, N.H., told The Times.
. . .
Democrats also failed to capitalize on, and may have been damaged by, winning back control of the House of Representatives, but not the Senate, in the 2018 midterms. Mr. Trump proved effective, if characteristically vitriolic, in making a foil of the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi. Efforts to impeach the president mainly served to energize his base. Polling surveys suggested that wavering voters saw a Democratic Party more invested in humiliating the president than in helping them.
. . .
“Trump succeeded,” lamented one moderate former Democratic lawmaker who asked to speak on background. “He got my party to lose its marbles.” The lawmaker cited calls by party activists to abolish the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency — calls the Warren campaign did not formally endorse but did little to refute — as emblematic of the party’s broader problems.

Hopes that voters will have a better choice of candidates in 2020 seem unlikely to be fulfilled, although it's still early by some measures.
   792. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5716339)
Unless a large chunk of them that keep their jobs or get one are Trumpublicans in which case they become more hardcore Trump sycophants.


That's what people said about Cohen, Amarillo Mannicotti, and the like.

He's got a way of inspiring fierce loyalty in sycophants... until they're no longer sycophants.
   793. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5716340)
mmmmm....holstery fanfic....
   794. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5716341)
The Times has managed to stock their op-ed page with an amazing amount of hot air. The old "gotta call this horse race evenly" syndrome no matter if everybody watching can see one of the horses is actually not even a horse.
   795. Lassus Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5716343)
@MichaelAvenatti: And for the haters out there, check my track record.

OK
In 2013 Avenatti formed a company, Global Baristas, to buy Seattle-based Tully's Coffee out of bankruptcy.[39] Avenatti first formed a partnership with actor Patrick Dempsey, but Dempsey later backed away from the venture after a short legal battle that resulted in a settlement.[40] Since 2015, Global Baristas has been named in more than 50 lawsuits in state and federal courts for breach of contract, unpaid bills, and unpaid taxes.[41]
   796. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5716344)
lamented one moderate former Democratic lawmaker who asked to speak on background.


Did his voice sound like droopy dog?

Because if so, I think I might be able to guess who he is... and his feel for the pulse of the nation is not exactly highly tuned.
   797. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5716345)
791

Clapper's going to blow this up to poster-size and tack it to the ceiling over his bed.
   798. Davo Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5716346)
I mean Trump should be impeached over stuff like this:

“I have broken more Elton John records, he seems to have a lot of records. And I, by the way, I don’t have a musical instrument. I don’t have a guitar or an organ. No organ. Elton has an organ. And lots of other people helping. No we’ve broken a lot of records. We’ve broken virtually every record. Because you know, look I only need this space. They need much more room. For basketball, for hockey and all of the sports, they need a lot of room. We don’t need it. We have people in that space. So we break all of these records. Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.”

Like, dude, your mind is melting in real time.
   799. Zonk Has Great and Unmatched Wisdom Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5716348)
Clapper's going to blow this up to poster-size and tack it to the ceiling over his bed.


Ha! Clicked the link...

It's Bret Stephens!

Any NeverTrumper is allowed in the tent - it's a big tent - but um, yeah... I'm pretty sure the Democratic party doesn't really need his advice.

I am also now thinking my throwaway line in 796 is actually - probably a pretty prescient guess.
   800. Shredder Posted: July 26, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5716350)
(The fake claim that he's a witness contained in the fake impeachment articles is based on him having allegedly having signed off on a FISA renewal application. It's not clear that he did so, but assuming he did, that makes him... law enforcement, not a witness. The fake claim is that not that he's a witness in the Russia investigation, but that he's a witness to "potential FISA abuse."
I didn't RTFAOI, but I thought the argument generally was that he was a witness to obstruction, in that he had something to do with vetting or approving the bullshit letter that the Administration wrote justifying the Comey firing (it wasn't Russia, but rather because he was so mean to Hillary), which everyone knows is a lie.
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