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Monday, June 11, 2018

OTP 2018 June 11: Sports, politics conflicted 50 years ago with mourning of RFK’s death

If you think the intersection – and conflict – of sports and politics is something new, well, you haven’t been paying close enough attention to either for a very long time.

Don’t think so? Check out President Trump’s pardon of the controversial African-American heavyweight champion Jack Johnson, who held the title more than 100 years ago. His reign was consumed by the politics of the day. So it is no surprise that the debate over NFL players and the national anthem remains a divisive topic.

Anything that is going to have the powerful symbolism of sports —and the ability to unite, as we have seen right here in Washington during the Capitals’ Stanley Cup playoffs run — is also going to generate enough passion to divide as well, in death as well as life.

That was the case 50 years ago, as Major League Baseball tried to cope with the proper way to mourn the death of New York Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy on June 6, 1968.

 

I almost linked to a story with the tag line “Miguel Cabrera stands next to Detroit’s “Rally Goose” during the first game of a doubleheader vs. the Yankees on Monday. The Tigers lost the opener but won the nightcap” but opted for history instead of the goose.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 11, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 1349 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boxing, death, hockey, off-topic, politics, why can't we all just get along

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   101. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5690242)
Chump change, my friend, chump change:

So, how much did Jared/Ivanka make in 2015? Do real billionaires even care about $82M? Where's the Dr. Evil with his pinky in his cheek meme?

I keep being reminded of that talking point from the 2016 campaign about how the Trumps had already made their billions and wouldn't be beholden to special interests. Instead, they're constantly looking for a few measly million here and a few measly million there.
   102. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5690246)
So, how much did Jared/Ivanka make in 2015? Do real billionaires even care about $82M? Where's the Dr. Evil with his pinky in his cheek meme?

I keep being reminded of that talking point from the 2016 campaign about how the Trumps had already made their billions and wouldn't be beholden to special interests. Instead, they're constantly looking for a few measly million here and a few measly million there.


The figures matter less to me than the specifics - i.e., what endeavors did they arise from? Are there connections to their, ummm, 'work', in the administration? Have those figures from specific endeavors increased relative to pre-WH?

In the case of Ivanka, at least, the answer seems to be a huge red flag... I.e., one of her prime income sources is her brand of idiotware - the same idiotware that KellyCon was hawking... the same brand that China amazingly just gave her expedited trademark approval of.

That said, unremarked yesterday was the emoluments case by brought by CREW and others kicked off yesterday... and the judge seemed rather skeptical of the defense arguments.

The plaintiffs had already cleared the major standing hurdle - and the judge has promised a ruling in July... Chances are, the initial decision on standing gets appealed (I thought it had already, but apparently not) - so I highly suspect this goes up the ladder before that point, but we shall see.
   103. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5690251)
More primaries today...

The biggest race to watch is probably whether Mark Sanford survives a Trumpkin challenger...

Unremarked last week - South Dakota had its primaries and it was actually a really poor showing for Trumpkins.
   104. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5690253)
I'm sure this isn't original, but I was struck last night by how perfectly Trump and Kim were made for each other. Kim looked like a deer in the headlights facing a full Western-style press corps, and Trump marched him around from here to there and assumed the position of control. They're both bullies, and Trump used his larger physical mass to take the alpha role. Kim was like the junior high bully that was getting recognition from the high school version of himself, simultaneously happy to be there but nervous an actual principal might show up and send him to the office.

Looking at it from another angle, Kim has "accomplished" many things Trump admires. A press corps who publishes, without question, whatever golf score claims (or other fake news) the administration pushes out! A rubber stamp parliamentary body, crowds that will whip themselves into formation for a nice parade, anyone who expresses disagreement basically disappears, and some serious border walls someone else pays for. When Trump says he has "great respect" for Kim, he's not kidding. Coming from the G7, with its uppity Canucklehead, this must have been a breath of fresh air for Trump.

Trump is going to be emboldened by his "success" here, and it is an historical event to meet with NK - regardless of anything else. Problem is, he's got to get back to Washington and deal with real politics again, and real countries (and Canada!), and it's not going to go as well.
   105. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5690257)
Trump is going to be emboldened by his "success" here, and it is an historical event to meet with NK - regardless of anything else. Problem is, he's got to get back to Washington and deal with real politics again, and real countries (and Canada!), and it's not going to go as well.

Speaking of high school analogies. Canada is like the wallflower that is excited to have the attention of the cool kids. Even if it is not exactly positive attention.
   106. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5690260)
Speaking of high school analogies. Canada is like the wallflower that is excited to have the attention of the cool kids. Even if it is not exactly positive attention.


Find your inner Carrie and crash Trump's motorcade.

It's the only way.
   107. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5690262)
Speaking of high school analogies. Canada is like the wallflower that is excited to have the attention of the cool kids. Even if it is not exactly positive attention.


I don't see it that way. Trudeau is standing up to the bully. I doubt he's happy or excited that he has to deal with Trump the Idiot.
   108. McCoy Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5690265)
I'm sure this isn't original, but I was struck last night by how perfectly Trump and Kim were made for each other. Kim looked like a deer in the headlights facing a full Western-style press corps, and Trump marched him around from here to there and assumed the position of control. They're both bullies, and Trump used his larger physical mass to take the alpha role. Kim was like the junior high bully that was getting recognition from the high school version of himself, simultaneously happy to be there but nervous an actual principal might show up and send him to the office.

Except Kim got everything he wanted or will be getting everything he wanted while Trump only gets his beloved "win the news cycle" and little else with tons of potential for egg on his face. Now it is possible the 12 dimension chess player wants international incidents so that he can tweet tough so it is possible that this is a big win in Trump's head.
   109. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5690267)
If Jason does return, I propose that every response to him be a link to this John Oliver video.
   110. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5690270)
If Jason does return, I propose that every response to him be a link to this John Oliver video.

Whatabout Cher? Whatabout The Olsen Twin? Whatabout Fabio? Whatabout Sinbad the Sailor? Whatabout Sinbad the Comedian? (starts around 5:30 or so)
   111. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5690271)
I don't see it that way. Trudeau is standing up to the bully. I doubt he's happy or excited that he has to deal with Trump the Idiot.

Yeah it fits Canada as a whole better than Trudeau himself. And even then it's more initial instinct than reasoned position. Canadians are pretty uniformly anxious about what's going on.

Trudeau does have a silver lining in that a tussle with Trump could unite the electorate behind him, and he's been looking a bit shaky for re-election 18 months from now. But considering the potential disaster a trade war with the US would bring that would be small consolation for him.
   112. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5690274)
SINGAPORE — President Trump said he “developed a very special bond” with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un during their historic summit here Tuesday and proclaimed the start of a new era that could break a cycle of nuclear brinkmanship and stave off a military confrontation. ...

But Trump provided few specifics about what steps Kim would take to back up his promise to denuclearize his country and how the United States would verify that North Korea was keeping its pledge to get rid of its nuclear weapons, saying that would be worked out in future talks.

“We will do it as fast as it can mechanically and physically be done,” he said of the process to rid North Korea of nuclear weapons.

The result was a diplomatic breakthrough after decades of hostility, but no guarantee that North Korea would follow through. Trump grounded his optimism in his own confidence that he can read an adversary and that his gamble of attempting personal rapport with a dictator would pay off.

Trump said Kim agreed to shutter a missile engine testing site and to allow the return of remains of American service members lost in North Korea during the Korean War more than 60 years ago.

Kim, it seems, got at least one benefit up front.

Trump announced that he will order an end to regular “war games” that the United States conducts with ally South Korea, a reference to annual joint military exercises that are an irritant to North Korea.

Trump called the exercises “very provocative” and “inappropriate” in light of the optimistic opening he sees with North Korea. Ending the exercises would also save money, Trump said.

The United States has conducted such exercises for decades as a symbol of unity with Seoul and previously rejected North Korean complaints as illegitimate. Ending the games would be a significant political benefit for Kim, but Trump insisted he did not give up leverage. ...


Trump added that they were useless and a waste of money because all we did was bomb empty mountains. Add training to the list of things Trump doesn't understand. Would he prefer we bomb cities and factories while training, or would he prefer we don't train at all? Because there's no other option.
   113. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5690275)
Except Kim got everything he wanted or will be getting everything he wanted while Trump only gets his beloved "win the news cycle"
Yes, well, that's everything Trump wants, right there.
with tons of potential for egg on his face
Trump has repeatedly shown that what other people would be embarrassed over, he simply does not care about. If it's not praise of Trump, then by definition it's from delusional people, and just doesn't matter. Make a vapid comment and forget it.

   114. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5690278)
The real problem isn't Trudeau's - it's Trump's.

Unlike the tyrannical regimes Trump wants to play nice with, all of these western-style democracies have elections... and the Canadian and European press has reached a truly scathing and brutal level of Trump-hate. Multiple foreign leaders - especially in Europe - are now talking openly about "isolating" the US.

Trade is obviously easier across a common border than trans-atlantic - but that doesn't change the fact that the EU combined GDP is roughly equal to the US. Toss in Japan, Canada, even Mexico - keep in the mind that the rest of the TPP is continuing towards enactment - only an idiot (which is unfortunately what the US has at the helm) isn't going to see a real danger developing.

"We're America, #######!" doesn't work if the rest of the western world says "Great, go #### yourself or have Kim and Putin do it".... and there's a significant chance of that happening.

No, it's not like it would turn the US into a third world country... but anyone who doesn't think a coordinated "enough of this ####\" from European, Pacific Rim, and Americas democracies cannot inflict serious harm isn't a serious person.

Empires rise and fall throughout history and as the destruction of WWII falls further and further into the past, it was inevitable that the US time as the unquestioned and undetachable top of that heap was going to fade. However, it's nothing short of amazappalling (that should be a word!) that the US has gotten so suicidal that it's letting a madman and a buffoon accelerate that process.

   115. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5690279)
When Trump says he has "great respect" for Kim, he's not kidding.


When asked to explain that, Trump explained that he came to control and run an entire country at age 26, and how impressive that is. Add how hereditary monarchies work to the list of things Trump doesn't understand.
   116. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5690285)
Add how hereditary monarchies work to the list of things Trump doesn't understand.


Why bother with such a list?

It's easier to just keep the list of things he DOES understand... and by my count, it remains limited to:

Spray tan bottles
Twitter
Fastfood wrappers
Grifting and graft
Sexual Assault

The past couple years haven't yielded any new additions to the list...
   117. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5690290)
When asked to explain that, Trump explained that he came to control and run an entire country at age 26, and how impressive that is. Add how hereditary monarchies work to the list of things Trump doesn't understand.

Mary Queen of Scots was only six days old. I looked to see if any monarch ascended to the throne in utero, but couldn't find any. (I'm getting deja vu. Have I asked this question before and had it answered by Greg K or one the other history buffs here?)
   118. Lassus Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5690291)
I'd expect a whatabout Iran deal any minute now.
   119. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5690293)
I looked to see if any monarch ascended to the throne in utero, but couldn't find any.


I don't think it's possible, given the monarchistic hullabaloo over the birth of an heir... Decidedly against the idea that life begins at conception, those folks...
   120. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5690299)
I'd expect a whatabout Iran deal any minute now.

From Iran themselves! It is hard to keep up. :-)
   121. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5690315)
Trudeau is standing up to the bully.


Too bad his eyebrows aren't.
   122. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5690316)
The real problem isn't Trudeau's - it's Trump's.

I think that works better for Europe than Canada. Canada's pretty locked in to the US. Trade deals with Europe and the wider Pacific are good, but Canada depends on the US, and that's not going to change any time soon.

Mary Queen of Scots was only six days old. I looked to see if any monarch ascended to the throne in utero, but couldn't find any. (I'm getting deja vu. Have I asked this question before and had it answered by Greg K or one the other history buffs here?)


If there is, it's likely to be a Scot. Mary passed on the Crown to her son James VI when he was just over a year old. The early modern Scots loved them some infant monarchs.
   123. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5690317)
Too bad his eyebrows aren't.

This has fueled quite a heated debate. Sadly we may never know the truth. When the social media world is so divided by partisanship and mutual accusations of fake news and conspiracy theories everyone believes what they want to believe.

Gone are the days when there was such a thing as absolute eyebrow truth.
   124. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:21 AM (#5690321)
Trump has repeatedly shown that what other people would be embarrassed over, he simply does not care about. If it's not praise of Trump, then by definition it's from delusional people, and just doesn't matter. Make a vapid comment and forget it.


He even said that if it all crashed and burned he'd make up some excuse and move on. HE SAID HE'D MAKE UP SOME EXCUSE!!! He's admitting he's a con man, but the marks don't care at all. Right, SBB?
   125. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5690328)
Too bad his eyebrows aren't.


Remind me again. Who was it just yesterday going on and on about substance over style?
   126. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5690331)
Remind me again. Who was it just yesterday going on and on about substance over style?


Was it the rube who has neither?
   127. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5690336)
Played like a banjo...

It's appropriate, I guess.
   128. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5690340)
Trump makes the patently false statement that Canada is "ripping us off" to the tune of a $100 billion trade deficit, and the rubes eat up despite the fact that we have a trade SURPLUS with Canada. When called on it, they make fun of his eyebrows. I almost pity them, in the way one would pity a dumb animal. Almost, but not quite.
   129. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5690348)
Weak.


CBC News Alerts

@CBCAlerts

Trump adviser admits 'mistake' on Trudeau 'special place in hell' remark. Peter Navarro says intent was to send signal of strength. 'In conveying that message I used language that was inappropriate and basically lost the power of that message.' Background: http://cbc.ca/1.4700061
10:14 AM - Jun 12, 2018


The message was perfectly conveyed.

There's a special place in hell for the democratically elected leader of America's largest trading partner mere hours before Dear Leader delivers a glowing handjob to Kim Jong Un.

That's exactly and precisely the message of the Trumpkins and the deplorables who front for him.

Jason has it tattooed on his ass where Trump gives him playful spankings. SBB uses it on his stationary. It's Clapper's signature on his fax blasts. Ray thinks it would make a great Uwe Boll movie.
   130. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5690350)
Trump said Kim agreed to shutter a missile engine testing site and to allow the return of remains of American service members lost in North Korea during the Korean War more than 60 years ago.


Regardless of anything else, it would be a nice bit of closure for the families of those service members.

The war was over 65 years ago, so if they were 20 years old when they died, their equivalently aged wives would be at least 85 years old, and the infant kids would be at least senior citizens themselves.
The parents of those service members have probably long passed away.

   131. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5690356)
Regardless of anything else, it would be a nice bit of closure for the families of those service members.


I don't believe a word Trump or Kim say about anything. Besides dog tags, which could be easily saved, how would you verify the ID of the remains returned?
   132. Ishmael Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5690357)
Mary passed on the Crown to her son James VI when he was just over a year old. The early modern Scots loved them some infant monarchs.

The Sasanian Emperor Shapur II was supposedly crowned before he was born when his father the Emperor was murdered, as he was the last remaining (possibly) male member of his family.

We're talking 4th Century CE though, so take it with a grain of salt.
   133. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5690358)
When Trump says that Kim's "people love Kim and that's all I have to go by", he says it with envy.
   134. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5690363)
Besides dog tags, which could be easily saved, how would you verify the ID of the remains returned?


DNA.
   135. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5690371)
DNA? An egghead fiction.
   136. McCoy Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5690374)
You think Trump would want to pay for that?
   137. Ishmael Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5690378)
Besides dog tags, which could be easily saved, how would you verify the ID of the remains returned?

That reminds me; I think it was BDC who talked up Ismail Kadare in some long ago thread. I read The General of the Dead Army on that recommendation and it was fantastic. Really atmospheric, quietly ironic.
   138. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5690379)
DNA? An egghead fiction.


I'll admit that the testing of Trump revealing he's the spawn of a cockroach and an eggplant is beyond current scientific explanation, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is incorrect.
   139. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5690380)
Besides dog tags, which could be easily saved, how would you verify the ID of the remains returned?


DNA.


Of course, DNA on its own is useless unless you have something to compare it to.

I doubt people still have viable DNA sources from 65 years ago to use as a match.
Maybe there are some blood relatives alive from the families (children, siblings) that they could do a match on, but there is a cost for trying to find the matches.
   140. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5690384)
but there is a cost for trying to find the matches.


Well, obviously you limit the search to the families of the still missing.
   141. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5690385)
Regardless of anything else, it would be a nice bit of closure for the families of those service members.


King Joffrey gave the same courtesy to the Starks. Wotta guy.
   142. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5690386)
Of course, DNA on its own is useless unless you have something to compare it to.

I doubt people still have viable DNA sources from 65 years ago to use as a match.
Maybe there are some blood relatives alive from the families (children, siblings) that they could do a match on, but there is a cost for trying to find the matches.


There was a pretty largescale project to use it for purposes of identifying Vietnam war MIA/KIA back in 2016 - and it has yielded results.

No reason the same wouldn't work here...
   143. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5690387)
Except Kim got everything he wanted or will be getting everything he wanted while Trump only gets his beloved "win the news cycle" and little else with tons of potential for egg on his face. Now it is possible the 12 dimension chess player wants international incidents so that he can tweet tough so it is possible that this is a big win in Trump's head.

That's incorrect. The United States hasn't done anything that can't be quickly reversed if North Korea doesn't live up to its pledges. There's reason to be wary about Kim keeping his commitments beyond superficial symbloc gestures, but we'll have ways of verifying whether he does. I'd also note that those with the most to lose here, the South Koreans, seem to believe that the effort is worth the risk. A denuclearized North Korea is a goal worth pursuing.
   144. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5690388)
but we'll have ways of verifying whether he does.


Kim has agreed to international inspectors? I missed that announcement.
   145. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5690390)
That's incorrect. The United States hasn't done anything that can't be quickly reversed if North Korea doesn't live up to its pledges. There's reason to be wary about Kim keeping his commitments beyond superficial symbloc gestures, but we'll have ways of verifying whether he does. I'd also note that those with the most to lose here, the South Koreans, seem to believe that the effort is worth the risk.


Sure.... the watchful eye of Dennis Rodman.

Let me make a bold prediction: "Verification" will come completely and totally in the form of whether Kim says nice things about Trump or not. If he does, that will be all the verification that your Dear Leader needs - and that will be good enough for deplorables the likes of you. If does not...
   146. BDC Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5690396)
Cheers, Ishmael, yes - The General of the Dead Army is one of my (bleak and surreal) favorites.
   147. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5690397)
That's incorrect. The United States hasn't done anything that can't be quickly reversed if North Korea doesn't live up to its pledges. There's reason to be wary about Kim keeping his commitments beyond superficial symbloc gestures, but we'll have ways of verifying whether he does. I'd also note that those with the most to lose here, the South Koreans, seem to believe that the effort is worth the risk.

Trump did give Kim a meeting, which is symbolic and gives him standing. It is not a huge thing.

I absolutely agree the effort is worth the risk, but hate the way that some people are portraying it as a huge win. It has the potential to be a big win, but the devil is in the details.
   148. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5690400)
if North Korea doesn't live up to its pledges.


And BTW, what pledges has Kim made? I see a lot of platitudes like committed to this and working toward that, but nothing substantive.
   149. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5690403)
Are they going to get real inspectors or clueless suckers who can't find the obvious, like Hans Blix?
   150. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5690404)
The United States hasn't done anything that can't be quickly reversed if North Korea doesn't live up to its pledges.
Except respect, for looking stupid, if these overtures do little more than any of the previous overtures.

Hey, if this "works", great. Nixon opened China, right? This could break the dam and lead to the end of NK. It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where this opens NK up to the West, like Japan in the 1870s, and brings them into the 21st century. Given an open media and internet access and freer interaction with the Western world, Kim's autocracy would crumble over time. That's a net win, no matter how you look at it.

And what other endgame did Kim have? Fire a nuke? Not exactly practical. If, as has been reported, they had some horrific accident down there and their program was TU anyway, this summit is a gift from heaven. Kim's bluff was about to get called and he was already all-in.

That being said, Trump is bending over backwards to legitimize a brutal dictator who has assassinated his rivals and run roughshod over his own people for his entire life. Kinda sucks to see that behavior rewarded.
   151. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5690414)
Sound and fury, signifying nothing. That's my take. You give away the goose in meeting with Kim, giving Kim a huge win internally and stabilizing his own power base and meanwhile Trump gets a win because the 40% or so of the country that thinks he's doing a great job continue to think that. And for his part, Dennis Rodman extends his 15 minutes of fame into 2018 and gets some ashtray money for drugs.

Nothing was formalized here it was all for show. Sadly, this is what passes for "leadership" among a large swathe of the electorate.
   152. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5690415)
I absolutely agree the effort is worth the risk, but hate the way that some people are portraying it as a huge win. It has the potential to be a big win, but the devil is in the details.


Nobody's portraying it as a huge win - well, beyond the kool-aid drinkers. Left and right, the verdict is 'meh' (see the link above, which runs the spectrum).

I absolutely agree 'the effort is worth the risk'... but it needs to be clear that at this point, it's solely and only the United States that has given anything concrete.

What the US has gotten is the exact, same vague statement NK has been delivering for decades... i.e. "the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula". It's actually not even a pledge to de-nuke - it's a "commitment" to "work towards".

In exchange?

Well... as has been stated over and over again - this 'meeting of equals' is something three generations of Kims have wanted. They GOT that. They didn't have to do a damn thing to get it, but they got it.

China was vocally suggesting last year that joint SK/US military exercises be cancelled. NK got that.

Anybody who really doesn't see how Trump got played like a banjo is just not capable of processing any real facts.

It's utterly surreal - the Iran deal was a bad deal made because Obama wanted it as part of his legacy... Yet - it was a multi-party agreement with the P5+1 - it expressly included IEAE inspections and both the IEAE and US intelligence have confirmed that Iran was living up to the deal.

Yet this? Trump got a photo op... and said all manner of things about Kim that will play great on NK TV.

It's not even a funny joke.
   153. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5690416)
FFS.

The WH even produced for Kim a nifty little propaganda trailer that barely needs any editing for the triumphant Kim to take home.
   154. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5690417)
And BTW, what pledges has Kim made? I see a lot of platitudes like committed to this and working toward that, but nothing substantive.

Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula? Here's the text of the framework agreement. Lots of work ahead, and it's pretty much a "not trust that much but verify" situation. However, North Korea is a basket case as a country, and acquiring a modest nuclear arsenal hasn't improved its standing domestically or internationally, so it's possible Kim thinks he can do better by "selling high". I wouldn't overpay here, but there may be a chance to work out a process that leads to Kim's eventual demise. The communists didn't last long once the Berlin Wall came down, and Kim may have a tough time hanging on if normal relations with South Korea develop. Those jumping to denounce the framework appear to be motivated solely by knee-jerk anti-Trump animus.
   155. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5690420)
Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula?

That just reaffirms the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration that NK already made with SK. All that declaration says is that they share a common goal of denuclearizing. No specifics and no timetable.

It's good that they talked and are being diplomatic instead of shouting threats and insults but there isn't much tangible there.
   156. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5690421)
Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula? Here's the text of the framework agreement. Lots of work ahead, and it's pretty much a "not trust that much but verify" situation. However, North Korea is a basket case as a country, and acquiring a modest nuclear arsenal hasn't improved its standing domestically or internationally, so it's possible Kim thinks he can do better by "selling high". I wouldn't overpay here, but there may be a chance to work out a process that leads to Kim's eventual demise. The communists didn't last long once the Berlin Wall came down, and Kim may have a tough time hanging on if normal relations with South Korea develop. Those jumping to denounce the framework appear to be motivated solely by knee-jerk anti-Trump animus.


Sure... except for the part where there is not so much as the tiniest of smalleset or briefest little hints of ANY method or framework of verification involved.

And despite your pollyana goes deplorable - don't look now, but the Dear Leader has managed to do something dad and granddad couldn't do. Get a US President to travel to Asia to fete him, say nice things about him, meet as equals, and cancel joint exercises.

Kim's stock just rose immeasurably in the eyes of anyone that might have been thinking about overthrowing him.

But yes, yes... Trump is exactly the type of guy who is willing to set in motion wheels that would likely take years, if not decades, to bear the magical fruit.

Do you honestly believe this crap - or does your own Dear Leader fetish just demand you keep playing Orange publicist?
   157. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5690422)
December 2014:

US President Barack Obama said that Iran has the potential to become a “very successful regional power” if Tehran agrees to a comprehensive deal restricting its controversial nuclear program, in a year-end interview with National Public Radio.


Iran.

A "very successful regional power."

Iran.

(Maybe we can now cue up the violent Leninist's use of scare quotes around "mullahs.")
   158. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5690423)
Do you honestly believe this crap - or does your own Dear Leader fetish just demand you keep playing Orange publicist?

I don't think Clapper has a dear leader fetish and I don't think he believes any of the crap. He just doesn't want any hiccups in his judicial appointments pipeline.
   159. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5690425)
Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula? Here's the text of the framework agreement. Lots of work ahead, and it's pretty much a "not trust that much but verify" situation. However, North Korea is a basket case as a country, and acquiring a modest nuclear arsenal hasn't improved its standing domestically or internationally, so it's possible Kim thinks he can do better by "selling high". I wouldn't overpay here, but there may be a chance to work out a process that leads to Kim's eventual demise. The communists didn't last long once the Berlin Wall came down, and Kim may have a tough time hanging on if normal relations with South Korea develop. Those jumping to denounce the framework appear to be motivated solely by knee-jerk anti-Trump animus.


I totally take them at their word! This entire process is backasswords. You don't hold the summit and THEN try and agree on a formal agreement you hammer out the agreement THEN you have the summit. There is no there there. This is just fluff. It's the sort of fluff that if Obama did it he'd be laughed at by people like John Bolton or Mike Pompeo -- and they'd be completely right. Or yourself, for that matter.
   160. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5690427)
Those jumping to denounce the framework appear to be motivated solely by knee-jerk anti-Trump animus.


There's not enough substance one way or the other to make any kind of serious evaluation. It's a promising start and nothing more.
   161. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5690428)
A "very successful regional power."


The fcvktroll has taken over Jason's departed reins of Juanaboutism.
   162. BDC Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5690430)
I hope that the winner in the whole exchange turns out to be the mountain that fell on the North Korean nuclear program.
   163. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5690431)
Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula?


We'll add Kim Jung Un #### to the list of things Clapper finds tasty good.
   164. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5690432)
Did you miss that North Korea pledged to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula?

That just reaffirms the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration that NK already made with SK. All that declaration says is that they share a common goal of denuclearizing. No specifics and no timetable.

It's good that they talked and are being diplomatic instead of shouting threats and insults but there isn't much tangible there.


Well, did folks expect a 50-page treaty ready for Senate ratification? A framework agreement is about all that realistic expectations would allow. The process had to start somewhere. If North Korea doesn't live up to its commitments, we can stick with sanctions and continue to pressure them. We haven't given up any options.
   165. BrianBrianson Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5690435)
Anybody who really doesn't see how Trump got played like a banjo is just not capable of processing any real facts.


Trump got everything he wanted (a win on the news cycle). It's win-win.
   166. Lassus Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5690436)
It's a promising start and nothing more.

A promising start to the legitimization of a murderous kook, yes. Congrats to all around.
   167. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5690437)
December 2014:

US President Barack Obama said that Iran has the potential to become a “very successful regional power” if Tehran agrees to a comprehensive deal restricting its controversial nuclear program, in a year-end interview with National Public Radio.


Iran.

A "very successful regional power."

Iran.


Of course, those concerned with substance will carefully read the words "comprehensive deal".... Those same substantials will then remember that US allies - and even Russia - then worked out a comprehensive deal, which included inspections. Further substance-minded readers will note the specifics steps and details of that comprehensive deal.

Substance-minded folks will then also remember that, again, both the IEAE and US intelligence have since VERIFIED.

Finally, substance-minded folks will also recall that Obama didn't fly to Qatar to give Housan Rouhani a handjob... mere hours after he was reserving a special place in hell for one of the US's closest allies, while its other close allies were throwing up their hands and deciding the US under its current President is a lost cause.

But - only substance-minded readers.

And you're not one of those.
   168. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5690438)
The fcvktroll has taken over Jason's departed reins of Juanaboutism.


You used scare quotes around the Iranian "mullahs."

You bring nothing to the table but sophomoric fantasies of political violence which, for some bizarre reason, Furtado lets you continue to spew in open forum.

   169. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5690441)
Of course, those concerned with substance will carefully read the words "comprehensive deal".... Those same substantials will then remember that US allies - and even Russia - then worked out a comprehensive deal, which included inspections. Further substance-minded readers will note the specifics steps and details of that comprehensive deal.


Short of regime change, there was and is no chance that Iran could ever be a "very successful regional power." The idea is laughable on its face.
   170. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5690443)
And BTW - all of 167 doesn't even mention that while Iran is certainly no bowl of human rights cherries, I feel pretty certain that the Kim regime's death toll far, far, far exceeds Iran's.

Though, of course, under the Trumpkin regime - the US doesn't give a #### about such stuff anymore.
   171. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5690444)
You bring nothing to the table but sophomoric fantasies of political violence


I bring to the table precisely what you shitstains deserve.
   172. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 12, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5690445)
YC, your #154 basically owes my #150 a Coke.
   173. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5690447)
Short of regime change


Iran requires "regime change." North Korea requires a hand job under the table to Dear Leader.
   174. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5690448)
Iran requires "regime change."


To be a "very successful regional power," yes. Saying it about the mullahs' regime is, as I noted, laughable on its face.
   175. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5690449)
To be a "very successful regional power," yes. Saying it about the mullahs' regime is


Swallow that Norkie dick though, buddy. Gobble it all down like a good little #####.
   176. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5690450)
Further substance-minded readers will note the specifics steps and details of that comprehensive deal.
The lesson learned from this is that specific steps and details and even "comprehensive plans" are a bad idea, as they can be second-guessed, criticized, and used as talking points. Far better to keep it unfalsifiable.

Empty meaningless grandiose statements of success can be mocked, but by doing so you look like you are rooting against the good guys. People like Clapper will fill in the blanks with made-up facts that, if challenged, came from Clapper, not you. Use language like "I looked into his soul" and "I trust him, he trusts me". Keep it about Trump, and his image; the facts don't matter (until they do).
   177. Srul Itza Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5690451)
I don't believe a word Trump or Kim say about anything. Besides dog tags, which could be easily saved, how would you verify the ID of the remains returned?


There is a major laboratory facility here that does nothing but that. They have been identifying previously unknown remains in Punchbowl from the Pearl Harbor attack. They can handle this.
   178. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5690453)
Swallow that Norkie dick though, buddy. Gobble it all down like a good little #####.


Embarrassing reply.
   179. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5690454)
Embarrassing reply.


Any reply to you is embarrassing by definition. It means you've fed a troll. Such is the way.
   180. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5690456)
Empty meaningless grandiose statements of success can be mocked, but by doing so you look like you are rooting against the good guys.


In a meeting between Trump and Kim, there are no good guys.
   181. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5690457)
Short of regime change, there was and is no chance that Iran could ever be a "successful regional power." The idea is laughable on its face.


Hate to burst your concession, substance-boy -

But Iran is already a pretty successful regional power. The Iraq war probably did more than anything since the Islamic revolution to bring that about. It's got the third highest total GDP in the region - trailing only only Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It's certainly got a population problem, but it's also got a load of natural resources and one of the region's most educated populations, to boot.

It's a serious human rights violator - though, well behind North Korea and pretty much on par with the various feudal governments the US counts as allies. It's hardly a beacon of representative democracy - though mindful of the role of the Supreme Leader/Assembly of Experts - it does have an elected President and parliament, unlike most other ME nations not named Israel.


   182. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5690459)
Any reply to you is embarrassing by definition. It means you've fed a troll. Such is the way.


Another embarrassing reply. You're on a roll today.
   183. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5690461)
Trump:

Trump: Well, we’ve given him, I don’t wanna talk about it specifically, but we’ve given him, he’s going to be happy. His country does love him. His people, you see the fervor. They have a great fervor. They’re gonna put it together, and I think they’re going to end up with a very strong country, and a country which has people — that they’re so hard working, so industrious. I think if you look at South Korea, someday, maybe in the not too distant future, it will be something that.
   184. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5690464)
Another embarrassing reply. You're on a roll today.


The saddest part of my day is realizing you've already bred.
   185. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5690465)
But Iran is already a pretty successful regional power.


No surprise that you think so.

It's a serious human rights violator


You don't say.

it does have an elected President and parliament,


LOL. Wow.
   186. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5690466)
YC, your #154 basically owes my #150 a Coke.

Your first sentence is at odds with the remainder of your post and all of mine, so no coke for you. The rest was a much more realistic take on the prospects going forward (uncertain) than most on the reactions here, so kudos on that.
   187. BDC Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5690467)
His country does love him. His people, you see the fervor. They have a great fervor

Gulags: creating fervor since the Pharaonic Era.
   188. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5690469)
Trump earned $3.9 million from her stake in the Trump International Hotel in Washington and more than $2 million in severance from the Trump Organization, while Kushner reported over $5 million in income from Quail Ridge, a Kushner Cos. apartment complex acquired last year in Plainsboro, N.J.
Hey, I used to live next door to that! Googling... I see that the year before, Kushner's companies bought the apartment complex that I had lived in. And several of the others in the area.
   189. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5690470)
His country does love him. His people, you see the fervor. They have a great fervor


Iran -- a "very successful regional power." And you know, Obama's words don't even need to be taken out of context like you took Trump's.
   190. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5690471)
But Iran is already a pretty successful regional power. The Iraq war probably did more than anything since the Islamic revolution to bring that about. It's got the third highest total GDP in the region - trailing only only Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It's certainly got a population problem, but it's also got a load of natural resources and one of the region's most educated populations, to boot.


Thanks, I was going to make this post but you beat me to it.
   191. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5690473)
Yes, how "very successful:

Under Iranian law, many nonviolent crimes, such as “insulting the Prophet,” apostasy, same-sex relations, adultery, and drug-related offenses, are punishable by death. In December 2015, members of Parliament introduced a bill to eliminate the death penalty for drug offences that do not involve violence. However, the initiative, while welcomed by several authorities, has not moved forward.

On August 2, authorities announced that they had executed at least 20 alleged members of a group Iran considers a terrorist organization on charges of moharebeh, or “enmity against God.” Rights groups believe that these individuals were among a group of 33 Sunni Kurdish men arrested in 2009 and 2010, and sentenced to death in unfair trials after enduring abuses and torture in detention. In August, authorities in Khuzestan province executed three Arab citizens on alleged terrorism charges.

New amendments to Iran’s penal code allow judges to use their discretion not to sentence children to death. However, Iran continued to execute children in 2016. On July 18, Amnesty International reported that authorities had hanged Hassan Afshar, who was arrested when he was 17 years old and convicted of “forced male to male anal intercourse” (lavat-e be onf). At least 49 inmates on death row were convicted of crimes committed when they were under 18 years old.

In March, the United Nations Children’s Rights Committee noted that flogging was still a lawful punishment for boys and girls convicted of certain crimes. The committee noted reports that lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) children had been subjected to electric shocks to “cure” them.

On May 25, Iranian media reported that authorities had flogged 17 miners in Western Azarbaijan province after their employer sued them for protesting the firing of fellow workers.


Executions for things like adultery and homosexuality and "apostasy."

But, hey -- there's a lot of oil there!!!! Success!!!!
   192. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5690474)
Short of regime change, there was and is no chance that Iran could ever be a "very successful regional power." The idea is laughable on its face.
Despite almost 40 years of economic beatdowns by the most powerful country in the world, Iran is actually in pretty good shape. Second largest-economy in the region, next to SA, modernized industrial base, 93% adult literacy rate in 2015 and 98% youth literacy rate, more than 40% of the population is under 25 and almost 75% of population under 40, etc.

And cokes.
   193. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5690476)
Looks like 185 must have eaten the substance, so concession boy should perhaps try re-posting it.

#1 - I'm not sure how one defines success then, if GDP isn't at least a large part of the equation.

#2 - Yes, I did say that... notice how you ignored what followed immediately. Let's call that concession accepted.

#3 - Don't know what to tell you... I didn't laud it as perfect or even good - just noted that it ranks above its neighbors. Per the Economist's Democracy Index - it's near the bottom of world rankings, but ranks above Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, and neighbors like Uzbeckistan and actually ranks above regional neighbors like Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Guess who's LAST on that list?

I guess your pleas for substance were just empty words?
   194. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5690477)
I know all those things already.

Iran is not "successful" under any meaningful definition of the term. It's not really the peoples' "fault," but still. That's not really the measure of anything.

It certainly has the raw materials for success, but that's really neither here nor there.
   195. Traderdave Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5690478)
But Iran is already a pretty successful regional power. The Iraq war probably did more than anything since the Islamic revolution to bring that about. It's got the third highest total GDP in the region - trailing only only Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It's certainly got a population problem, but it's also got a load of natural resources and one of the region's most educated populations, to boot.


Iran also has spheres of influence elsewhere in the region, such as Iraq and Lebanon. When a country has significant wealth vs neighbors, a large military and influence beyond its borders, it's a regional power. Ipso facto.

It's not a particularly positive or progressive power, but it is a regional power.
   196. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5690479)
Except Kim got everything he wanted or will be getting everything he wanted while Trump only gets his beloved "win the news cycle" and little else with tons of potential for egg on his face. Now it is possible the 12 dimension chess player wants international incidents so that he can tweet tough so it is possible that this is a big win in Trump's head.
So Trump isn't as self-unaware as I had always felt him to be:
Trump says he trusts Kim Jong Un. And if he's wrong? "I may be wrong, I mean I may stand before you in six months and say, 'Hey I was wrong,'" said Trump, before adding, "I don't know that I'll ever admit that, but I'll find some kind of an excuse." https://cnn.it/2LHOB45


In other news, not only did Trump had a massive victory to North Korea by canceling our joint exercises with South Korea, but he did so without telling (a) South Korea, or (b) U.S. forces in South Korea.
   197. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5690480)
Yes, how "very successful:


Go ahead and keep handwaving my point...

I've never said nor implied that among the world's human rights abusers - Iran would certainly be one of the dozen or so worst. What I have said is that A) North Korea is worse - and kindly stop pretending that wasn't my point, and B)its neighbors - some of whom are US allies - definitely belong in that same short list.

Concession accepted.
   198. -- Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5690481)
#1 - I'm not sure how one defines success then, if GDP isn't at least a large part of the equation.


So Hitler's Germany was a "very successful regional power"? Is that really your argument here?

#3 - Don't know what to tell you... I didn't laud it as perfect or even good - just noted that it ranks above its neighbors.


So? None of its neighbors are successful.

   199. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5690482)

The result was a diplomatic breakthrough after decades of hostility,
What idiot reporter wrote this and should have Sam sicc'ed on him?
   200. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: June 12, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5690483)
I know all those things already.


I doubt you do.

Because you're kind of an idiot.
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