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Monday, June 11, 2018

OTP 2018 June 11: Sports, politics conflicted 50 years ago with mourning of RFK’s death

If you think the intersection – and conflict – of sports and politics is something new, well, you haven’t been paying close enough attention to either for a very long time.

Don’t think so? Check out President Trump’s pardon of the controversial African-American heavyweight champion Jack Johnson, who held the title more than 100 years ago. His reign was consumed by the politics of the day. So it is no surprise that the debate over NFL players and the national anthem remains a divisive topic.

Anything that is going to have the powerful symbolism of sports —and the ability to unite, as we have seen right here in Washington during the Capitals’ Stanley Cup playoffs run — is also going to generate enough passion to divide as well, in death as well as life.

That was the case 50 years ago, as Major League Baseball tried to cope with the proper way to mourn the death of New York Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy on June 6, 1968.

 

I almost linked to a story with the tag line “Miguel Cabrera stands next to Detroit’s “Rally Goose” during the first game of a doubleheader vs. the Yankees on Monday. The Tigers lost the opener but won the nightcap” but opted for history instead of the goose.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 11, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 1349 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boxing, death, hockey, off-topic, politics, why can't we all just get along

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   1201. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5693953)

If the elites in Congress were actually interested in solving this problem rather than just mindlessly repeating one cliche from it, they'd work to pass a compromise bill which deals with it -- which would necessarily involved giving the Trump administration some of the things it wants.


That's kind of absurd and should be viewed as proof that this is Trump's doing. We have a problem that all have recognized should be fixed but the only way to fix it is apparently to negotiate on other things not related to the immediate problem.

If I'm dying in the street from a gunshot wound from a random driveby pretty much everyone would agree that the paramedic sitting in the ambulance next to me should help me. But what Trump and now Ray are arguing is that if I happened to have unpaid parking tickets the paramedic cannot help me until after I pay the parking fines.

If separating families is a problem that all can agree on then fix that problem. Funding for a wall that will take years to build is not going to fix the problem anytime soon so holding these kids hostage is just political theater.
   1202. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5693958)
People have focused on the TRUMP administration's "change in policy" without acknowledging what changed in the actions of the illegal IMMIGRANTS -- such as an increase in the number of *families* trying to enter over the past decade


I know it seems like it, but Trump has not been president for a decade. Less than a year and a half actually.

It IS a change in policy, not a "change in policy." You have your tongue so far up Trump's ass you can't even acknowledge that bleeding obvious fact. It's cruel, unusual, and unnecessary. You may be all giddy that this is happening here, but most of us aren't. Right now, I am ashamed to be an American.
   1203. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5693959)
If separating families is a problem that all can agree on then fix that problem.


Well it is a policy problem, obviously (yes I include the specifics in enforcing a policy to be a policy problem). As a policy problem it is horrific and should be changed. Well first it should never have come to this, but now it is like this it needs to be changed.

Funding for a wall that will take years to build is not going to fix the problem anytime soon so holding these kids hostage is just political theater.


Again the policy should be changed, but if anyone thinks this situation is putting pressure on Democrats they are insane. This situation is a freaking political goldmine for Democrats. Democrats could not have asked, begged, or hoped and dreamed for something more calculated to make the GOP Trump Administration look worse. Especially with (for example) suburban moms. From a political perspective nothing would make political strategists on the Democratic side happier than seeing this travesty continue on through the election, with endless photo ops and heart rending stories about little babies being ripped away from their mothers arms.

Once more for the purposefully stupid I think the policy is horrible. I would change it in an instant if I could and damn the political consequences. But the fact is the politics of this situation enormously favor the Democrats and every day that this goes on and plays out in the headlines is a huge problem for Republicans.
   1204. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5693960)
So far nobody here has honestly and accurately described the problem


So far nobody here has honestly and accurately presented a problem. I mean, what is the significant moral cost to not enforcing the border? I don't know what that even means. It sounds like classic authoritarianism, which you historically have claimed to oppose. "We must control these people coming through our borders." Why? "Because they're brown people and we must control the brown people. Oh, uh, I mean, there's a significant moral cost to not controlling our borders."
   1205. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5693961)
If separating families is a problem that all can agree on then fix that problem.


What's your proposal? Simply let all family units in? Simply turn them all away? Build new temporary housing facilities to hold them as a family unit? Hold them together in facilities/personnel not meant for such or equipped to handle such? Have Congress override Flores? Release the children to friends or relatives already in the US while the adult's asylum claim is processed (not sure how that addresses the family separation problem)? Automatically grant asylum to any adult requesting it without deciding whether the person qualifies? Release parents and children into the US while the asylum claim is pending? Automatically grant entry to any adult requesting it? Not investigate whether the adult is actually the parent's child?

I'm hearing zero proposed solutions. How would YOU address this, specifically?

   1206. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5693963)
I wonder if those agents in the New York FBI office who were leaking to Giuliani before the election would be willing to do this?

FBI agent removed from Russia probe for anti-Trump texts says he’s willing to testify before Congress

The FBI agent who was removed from the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election for sending anti-Trump texts intends to testify before the House Judiciary Committee and any other congressional committee that asks, his attorney said in a letter made public Sunday.
Peter Strzok,

Trump keeps saying he wants to testify too.

Today's Special: One slightly used Brooklyn Bridge.
   1207. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5693964)
The Daily 202: Trump is losing the debate over splitting up immigrant families

Thursday was a tipping point in the debate over President Trump’s policy of separating children from their undocumented parents at the border, as GOP lawmakers distanced themselves and conservative faith leaders mobilized their flocks against it.

Republicans might be able to win political fights over “sanctuary cities,” the border wall and the president referring to Hispanic gang members as “animals.” But party strategists privately acknowledge they will not be able to prevail in a messaging war over whether it’s a good idea to take kids away from their folks, especially against the backdrop of dramatic visuals and a stream of relatable stories about traumatized young people being housed in shelters. This policy is widely believed by operatives to play especially poorly with suburban women who are key to Democratic hopes of retaking the House.

This explains why more and more elected Republicans — especially those facing tough reelection fights — are going on the record to say they oppose splitting up families. Even Paul Ryan declared that he is uncomfortable with the policy. “We don’t want kids to be separated from their parents,” the speaker told reporters during his weekly news conference, though he blamed the courts and not Trump.


Again this is not something GOP President Trump can use as leverage against Democratic politicians. This is a election landmine Trump is dancing on. Yes, it is both terrible policy and terrible politics.
   1208. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5693965)
It IS a change in policy, not a "change in policy." You have your tongue so far up Trump's ass you can't even acknowledge that bleeding obvious fact. It's cruel, unusual, and unnecessary. You may be all giddy that this is happening here, but most of us aren't. Right now, I am ashamed to be an American.


And your proposal is...?
   1209. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5693966)
Strzok could have spoken to the IG. Did he?
Yes.

EDIT: And just to be clear, your first sentence is misleading. He couldn’t have not spoken to the IG. (Except by quitting.)
   1210. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5693967)
Right now, I am ashamed to be an American.


Actually, that's a little much. I'm ashamed that this is happening in my country.
   1211. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5693968)
Again the policy should be changed,


What's your proposal?

This isn't a trick question. There are a number of different ways to address this. I want to hear what you folks in particular are advocating.

   1212. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5693969)
I'm hearing zero proposed solutions. How would YOU address this, specifically?


Asked and answered. Not separate the families, like had been done in every administration prior to this one.
   1213. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5693970)
I'm hearing zero proposed solutions. How would YOU address this, specifically?


Several people have pointed out that President Obama handled this exact situation without building camps for babies ripped from their mothers arms. Why are you ignoring this? Why do you hate babies? (Yes, I am purposefully being emotional in order to show how this will play out in the next election).

Besides which this is a Problem for Trump. He is President. If he thinks this is the best possible solution than he gets to live with the criticism, the articles, headlines and horror at his governments actions, even if no one here presents a solution. You do realize that it how it works, right?
   1214. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5693972)
I'm hearing zero proposed solutions. How would YOU address this, specifically?

How about the same way we did over the other 8.5 years of this decade? Illegal immigration has gone down over the last 10 years.
   1215. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5693973)
What's your proposal? Blah blah blah. Blahblah blah blah. Blahblahblah blah blah.


On this Father's Day let me take this opportunity to thank Little Lord Fauntleray, the Omega Dancing Monkey, for not breeding.
   1216. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5693974)
So far nobody here has honestly and accurately presented a problem. I mean, what is the significant moral cost to not enforcing the border? I don't know what that even means. It sounds like classic authoritarianism, which you historically have claimed to oppose. "We must control these people coming through our borders." Why?


Because of the welfare state. Government already taxes a huge amount of taxes from the people who are shouldering the tax burden, and Democrats are asking for more.

But I've not advocated separating parents from children; I'm asking for your proposed solution.

"Because they're brown people and we must control the brown people. Oh, uh, I mean, there's a significant moral cost to not controlling our borders."


Yes, yes, it's all racism. There can be no other reason.

A sixth grader would be embarrassed to make that argument.
   1217. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5693975)
How about the same way we did over the other 8.5 years of this decade? Illegal immigration has gone down over the last 10 years.


Trump is pouting like a petulant child who didn't get a pony for his birthday. he can't get Mexico today for the wall, he can't get Congress to pay for a walls he is figuratively holding his breath till he turns blue. That's all this is.

On the one hand,youcan't blame a spoiled petulant child for acting like a spoiled petulant child. but you can blame the parents who should know better. Trump is Veruca Salt demanding her Oompah Loompah.
   1218. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5693976)
But I've not advocated separating parents from children; I'm asking for your proposed solution.


Don't separate them. Like every President since Trump did.
   1219. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5693977)
I'm asking for your proposed solution.


Exactly how many people have to have answered this question with "You know the Obama administration managed" before you acknowledge it? Will you ever?

Anyway, like I said it is a terrible policy, but the best possible politics for Democrats. So hey if Trump wants to do it, nothing can stop him but intervention from Congress or the Courts. And Democrats will extract a fair amount before letting anything through.

OK, I was wrong, having a bipartisan bill pass Congress and get vetoed by Trump (because no wall funds) or a Bill not make it through because Republicans insist on wall funds would be even better than the current situation (politically). What a campaign advertising bonanza.
   1220. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5693978)
We can spend billions of dollars on a wall that isn't going to do anything or we can simply bus those we catch back over the border. Busses don't cost billions. Personally I'm for much more open immigration.
   1221. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5693979)
Asked and answered. Not separate the families, like had been done in every administration prior to this one.


So give automatic entry to an adult who comes here with a child or children.

Yes?

And what do you foresee the effect of that policy to be?

Would we continue to have a meaningful border?

Would unscrupulous people look to abuse the policy via fraud? Should we be concerned for the safety of the children being used in this fashion?

What's your comment on the increase of adults and children seeking illegal entry over the past ten years? Concern? Not a concern?
   1222. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5693980)
Because of the welfare state. Government already taxes a huge amount of taxes from the people who are shouldering the tax burden, and Democrats are asking for more.

The welfare state is tiny compared to our defense budget, and will continue to be so, regardless of immigration policy. We manage somehow.

Yes, yes, it's all racism. There can be no other reason.

This isn't a particularly clever way to evade the question of what the "moral cost" is.
   1223. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5693981)
Classic Ray. Let's focus not on what is happening but your response to what is happening.

Oh, Nazis are killing Jews? You think that is horrible? Ok, so what is your solution? Now let me pooh-pooh it in the form of 12 questions that attempt to hobgoblin your answer.
   1224. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5693982)
Because of the welfare state. Government already taxes a huge amount of taxes from the people who are shouldering the tax burden, and Democrats are asking for more.


Huh? Republicans are asking for more to build their wall and to pay for all the ICE agents and building all the various camps to hold children (forced away from their families at gunpoint). Democrats are trying to be fiscally responsible and not waste money. Especially since America was promised a Wall without paying a penny for it. Mexico was paying for the wall. Maybe you should complain about however made that lying promise.
   1225. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5693984)
So give automatic entry to an adult who comes here with a child or children.

Yes?


No. You send them back.

Did every single illegal crossing the border get free access before St. Donald came to save us from ourselves? of course not.
   1226. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5693986)
Oh, Nazis are killing Jews? You think that is horrible? Ok, so what is your solution?

Well, obviously, we can't let the MS St. Louis drop its passengers off here. There's a tremendous moral cost to letting refugees come ashore.
   1227. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5693988)
Did every single illegal crossing the border get free access before St. Donald came to save us from ourselves? of course not.


Ray has this bizarre fantasy wherein every liberal is in favor of completely open borders and that Obama held a giant illegal immigration sale, "Smuggle one in and get a second one free!"

It is weird, but nothing seems able to convince him otherwise.
   1228. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5693989)
Has anyone mentioned recently that Trump's former campaign chair is in jail? If not, well it should be mentioned often.
   1229. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5693992)
Several people have pointed out that President Obama handled this exact situation without building camps for babies ripped from their mothers arms. Why are you ignoring this?


Because as a Kenyan-born Muslim sleeper agent elected through a combination of election fraud and voter intimidation by afro-Jihadist thugs, Obama's entire presidency is inherently illegitimate and as such offers no valid predicates for future governance.
   1230. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5693993)
OPEN BORDERS.

How much clearer do you want it, Raymond?
   1231. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5693994)
I'm glad nobody here pretends to be a libertarian anymore,
   1232. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5693996)
Did every single illegal crossing the border get free access before St. Donald came to save us from ourselves? of course not.


Not sure what game you're playing with "every single" and again this issue concerns adults coming here *with children* but as to what the previous POLICY was -- and again the incidences of adults coming here with children are increasing -- here is what Lowry said in the link I posted:

The Trump administration isn’t changing the rules that pertain to separating an adult from the child. Those remain the same. Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.

It’s the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)


And this is the previous administrations' policy, from the WaPo story you linked to yesterday:

The current policy resulted from a decision made in April by Attorney General Jeff Sessions to prosecute all migrants who cross the border, including those with young children. Those migrants had avoided detention during the administrations of George W. Bush and Barack Obama. Because of a 1997 court settlement that bars children from being imprisoned with parents, Justice Department officials now say they have no choice but to isolate the children.

Sessions and White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders have defended the policy as a sound, and biblical, decision to enforce the law.

“The previous administration wouldn’t prosecute illegal aliens who entered the country with children,” Sessions said Thursday in Fort Wayne, Ind., citing biblical advice to follow laws. “It was de facto open borders.”
   1233. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5693997)
Has anyone mentioned recently that Trump's former campaign chair is in jail? If not, well it should be mentioned often.


LOCK HIM UP!!!!

Check.
   1234. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5693998)
“It was de facto open borders.”


Nope.
   1235. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5694000)
If Rich Lowry said it.... golly.
   1236. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5694001)
LOCK HIM UP!!!!

Check.


This is incoherent even for you. He is already locked up. Not for the political act of running against Trump, but rather for legal issues.

It is amusing you don't think it significant that Trump's Campaign Chair is in the pokey. But hey, keep pretending otherwise.

   1237. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:41 PM (#5694002)
So give automatic entry to an adult who comes here with a child or children.

Yes?


No. You send them back.


Some of them are seeking asylum.
   1238. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:41 PM (#5694003)
The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults.


Weren't you just recently pretending Trump had not changed the policy? Weird, because from your own quote it looks like there is a new policy. So which is it, has Trump changed the policy or not? And why exactly do you favor babies being ripped away from their mothers?

Don't worry I am sure this will play great in November.

"Gee everyone it is the same policy as before. I mean it is a totally different policy than before. Before it was open borders! Yeah, and the only way not to have open borders is to separate children from their parents! Vote GOP!"

Good one dude. I am sure the GOP will ride the landslide wave!
   1239. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5694004)
I bet most of those children were MS-13 anyway. They like totally deserve to be put in camps, since they are all animals anyway. Right?
   1240. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5694006)
By the way I think it tremendous that Ray thinks citing Pence (EDIT: My bad, Sessions. The bible quote fooled me into thinking Pence had to be involved somewhere) on the previous administrations policy is somehow definitive on what exactly the previous administrations policy was. The bit about the bible was just the cherry on top.

Could your argument possibly be less serious?
   1241. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5694009)
Psst, citing Sessions.
   1242. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5694011)
Some of them are seeking asylum.


Sure. for those, you process their claim. there is no need to separate the children
   1243. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5694012)
Well, Ray also keeps citing Rich Lowry - the GOP's Philippe Petain as some kind of authority and objective observer.
   1244. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5694014)
there is no need to separate the children


The monstrous MS-13 affiliated children, is I think what you meant.
   1245. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5694018)
Some of them are seeking asylum.


We all know asylum seekers are rapists and murderers and drug runners. Lord Donald has told us so.
   1246. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5694022)
Immigration is the key to Trump's victory, as it will be to his defeat. I'm just not sure anybody will call his bluff, as the Clinton influence weighs strongly upon Democrats.
   1247. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:33 PM (#5694023)
Some of them are seeking asylum.


Sure. for those, you process their claim. there is no need to separate the children


You don't show any understanding of the mechanics of this, which was my initial suspicion.

You can't hold them in the same facility. The facilities aren't set up for that.

And you can't hold the children for more than 20 days per the law.

The asylum applications take longer to process than that.

So you have to either send the children/parents back to the place they're seeking asylum from (or to some other place), or you have to find adults within the US to send the children to, or you have to admit the entire family to the US.

Which are you advocating?
   1248. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5694025)
Don't arrest them. That seems to cause the problems.
   1249. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5694035)
So you have to either send the children/parents back to the place they're seeking asylum from (or to some other place), or you have to find adults within the US to send the children to, or you have to admit the entire family to the US.

Which are you advocating?


Whatever it was we did before Trump.

I guarantee that this is not a crisis that requires a change in policy, because as soon as the Democrats cry uncle and agree to spend half the money in the world to build a wall, Trump will go back to what we did before, even though it will take many years to complete a wall which will likely do nothing anyway.
   1250. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5694036)
People are speaking in generalities. “Keep the families together.” “Process their claim.” You have to deal with the mechanics of the situation, otherwise you simply don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re just virtue signaling. Which is what I guessed from the befinning. Few here if anyone has shown a grasp of the subject matter. Not Misirlou, not BM, not (unshockingly) Sam.
   1251. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5694037)
If Rich Lowry said it.... golly.

Another one of JE's former "#NeverTrumps".
   1252. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5694039)
Not Misirlou,


How many times can I say t? Go back to what we did before. That's what Trump will do if and when he gets the money for his boondoggle.
   1253. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5694040)
Few here if anyone has shown a grasp of the subject matter.


Like you do.
   1254. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5694042)
Andy I could be mistaken but I don’t think Lowry ever came out as never Trump.

IIRC he was more “I don’t prefer Trump.”
   1255. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5694043)
Because you're a common citizen who does not deal with these matters as a matter of routine you are merely virtue signaling since you don't have an iron clad plan ready to roll out on demand. Um, okay.

This problem was absolutely not a problem it is at its current scale before Trump. So yes, the answer is very simple. Have Trump and his cronies stop doing what they are doing. That will solve the problem. Illegal immigration was not and is not a huge problem and it certainly isn't a big enough problem that we as a nation need to do this.
   1256. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5694044)
When The Onion eradicates the line between parody and stenography:

Sessions Defends Separating Immigrant Families By Citing Senate Confirmation Vote
WASHINGTON—Claiming that the administration’s policy was rooted in a clear moral authority, Attorney General Jeff Sessions reportedly defended separating immigrant families Friday by citing his senate confirmation vote. “I would remind anyone concerned about the ethics of removing asylum-seekers from their children that I sailed through my confirmation hearing with a vote of 52-47,” said Sessions, quoting at length from a transcript of his testimony in which his history of racially charged remarks and actions were discussed in detail. “We’re not just talking about immigration hardliners here, either—Dean Heller, John McCain, Susan Collins, and even Joe Manchin all gave me their endorsement. These senators were certainly aware of what actions I was likely to take as Attorney General, so why would they have decided to confirm me if these policies were unjust? The relative smoothness of my hearing proves that we are on the correct and righteous course.” Sessions also cited the continued lack of impeachment proceedings against him as a sound justification for eventually rolling back the rights of legal immigrants who have lived in the country for decades.

Gotta admit that highlighted part is kind of hard to answer. But then all that mattered during Sessions' confirmation hearing was his paper qualifications, and STFU about any moral considerations.
   1257. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5694048)
Andy I could be mistaken but I don’t think Lowry ever came out as never Trump.

IIRC he was more “I don’t prefer Trump.”


You're right, and I stand corrected. Lowry was more or less always in the position that JE has been since the nomination. He doesn't particularly like him or admire him, but he finds him a useful club to beat liberals with. Kind of like you and FLTB.
   1258. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5694049)
Should've listened to Liz Warren.
   1259. Count Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5694051)

You don't show any understanding of the mechanics of this, which was my initial suspicion.

You can't hold them in the same facility. The facilities aren't set up for that.

And you can't hold the children for more than 20 days per the law.

The asylum applications take longer to process than that.

So you have to either send the children/parents back to the place they're seeking asylum from (or to some other place), or you have to find adults within the US to send the children to, or you have to admit the entire family to the US.

Which are you advocating?


You don't understand this issue and you're yelling at other people to justify atrocious immoral policy decisions. This idea you seem to have that asylum applicants must be detained is wrong. Asylum applicants often work legally after their applications have been filed and while awaiting their decision; see here for a quick overview. If their applications are later denied, they will be deported (assuming they don't qualify for some other status like withholding of removal without getting asylum). They don't have to be detained while undergoing this process, and affirmative asylum applicants don't start in detention.

For defensive asylum applications, like those by people who arrive at the border and are detained and then claim asylum, it's a little different. If they're found by an immigration officer to have a credible fear / significant possibility of establishing eligibility for asylum, they can and should be paroled unless they pose a public safety or flight risk. For example, I worked on the case of a guy who flew into the country without papers, was detained at the airport, said he was applying for asylum, then was detained in a detention center for weeks or months before he was interviewed by an immigration officer and established a credible fear of persecution / significant possibility of establishing eligibility for asylum (I believe he had pro bono counsel at that point). He was then paroled. While he was paroled, he worked legally for years while awaiting his asylum hearing (and he got asylum! great guy, and I recommend working on these cases for the lawyers here).

Long story short, these are justifications for a deliberate and unnecessary policy of separating children from their parents. On a related note, the Trump administration is also tightening eligibility for asylum. They are doing all of this because they are racist and don't want the country to have too many brown people. (You don't have to be racist to be an immigration restrictionist, but the Trump administration is in fact racist. Some, I assume, are good people).
   1260. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5694052)
One can't oppose concentration camps if one doesn't "deal with the mechanics." Got it, Ray. You're a good little Vichy whore.
   1261. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5694053)
#1259 - Good post.
   1262. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5694057)
Few here if anyone has shown a grasp of the subject matter.

Remember, Ray is the expert on any and every subject matter. Like how climate change is a hoax.
   1263. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5694068)
Sometimes you wonder how patient the cops would be if dealing with people of a different persuasion than the dead person here.
   1264. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:50 PM (#5694075)
This is just yet another instance of the subject matter not being one of the four things Ray deems worthy of caring about, so he's seizing the opportunity to do one of the few things he does care about: "triggering" the libs through a concoction of feigned ignorance, an absence of empathy, and an unwavering contrarian stance no matter how much that stance flies in the face of logic.
   1265. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5694083)
I haven’t said it’s not a problem (duh) just asked how people here would address it. Apparently such discussion can’t be had with any level of seriousness.
   1266. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5694085)

Remember, Ray is the expert on any and every subject matter. Like how climate change is a hoax.


To be fair, his position on the topic has evolved from “climate change is a hoax” to “I never said climate change was a hoax”.
   1267. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5694088)
I haven’t said it’s not a problem (duh) just asked how people here would address it. Apparently such discussion can’t be had with any level of seriousness.


And who's fault is that? You asked, many people answered, and you ignored the answers and asked again, and numerous people answered again, and you ignored again, and thus people mocked you.
   1268. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5694091)

And who's fault is that? You asked, many people answered, and you ignored the answers and asked again, and numerous people answered again, and you ignored again, and thus people mocked you.


And of course he's full of it because he didn't "just ask" he also judged when he felt people didn't give a good enough answer. He told us we were all not really serious about the issue because we couldn't give him a complete plan to solve an issue that Trump created and can solve himself.
   1269. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5694093)
Some of them are seeking asylum.

Sure. for those, you process their claim. there is no need to separate the children

The problem is the most of the the claims for political asylum are not meritorious. Folks have been coached that saying a few magic words puts them in a different category that might get them released pending a hearing, for which few actually even show up. Continuing that catch & release policy would have been a perversion of the political asylum process. The bottom line is that people are trying to immigrate illegally, bringing their children with them, and then invoking a process that prevents them from being immediately deported. It's a problem of their own making.
   1270. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5694094)
Complete plan? I gave a number of options that seem to me to be the only possible options. All you had to do was to agree with one (or propose another) in one sentence or a paragraph.
   1271. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5694096)
Continuing that catch & release policy


I was wondering when you'd show up to parrot the Trump catchphrase.
   1272. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5694098)
The problem is the most of the the claims for political asylum are not meritorious.


No. the problem is that Trump is doing this only to try to extort money from congress to build the wall. The moment they give in, this problem mysteriously disappears. Thus, it's not a problem.
   1273. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5694100)
The problem is the most of the the claims for political asylum are not meritorious. Folks have been coached that saying a few magic words puts them in a different category that might get them released pending a hearing, for which few actually even show up. Continuing that catch & release policy would have been a perversion of the political asylum process. The bottom line is that people are trying to immigrate illegally, bringing their children with them, and then invoking a process that prevents them from being immediately deported. It's a problem of their own making.

Yes the problem is so bad that we've been practically overrun with illegal immigrants.
   1274. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:28 PM (#5694101)

I was wondering when you'd show up to parrot the Trump catchphrase.


Might as well call 'em wetbacks.

   1275. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5694103)
Trump's policy is decades in the making. Latin Americans are bringing their families because there's no going back. This is a Uniparty problem. Until Democrats stand up behind their open border convictions, it'll only get worse for the immigrant.

It's not like the white supremicists are going to vote D.
   1276. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5694106)
The problem is the most of the the claims for political asylum are not meritorious.

Well, when you get to write the dictionary, I suppose you can define a word any way that suits you.

No, the problem is that asylum is only granted on the narrowest possible grounds, and usually without any real chance for the petitioners to present their case in any more than the most perfunctory way. We gladly send people back to a certain death in their own countries unless they can "prove" political persecution to the satisfaction of judges who are predisposed to reject their claims, and phony conservatives don't see any problem with that. There's about as much "rule of law" here as there was in the kangaroo courts of Alabama during Jeff Sessions' boyhood, which is clearly where he got his ideas about justice.

   1277. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5694107)
The thing is is that Trump doesn't really care about a wall. He just wants to say "I win, you lose". If he wins he'll just quickly move on to some other battle that he wants to just be able to crow about getting his way,, He is absolutely not interested in creating any kind of way of life, or creating a government/bureaucracy, or coming up with long lasting policy. It is all about showing the world his victories and making sure everyone knows that he is better than them. That's it. Plain and simple and GOP voters are going right along with it because of the big bad bogeyman that is the Liberal when they should be standing up against it because in the long run his style of governing is far more damaging and destructive to its citizens than anything they can dream about the Liberal doing.
   1278. Count Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5694108)
The fact that half the Trump administration, most notably the president, feels the need to lie egregiously about the separation policy is a sign that the justifications for it are bullshit. (To steal a line from twitter, some officials including Trump are lying and blaming existing law or Democrats; some are lying and saying there is no new policy; and some are proudly saying the policy is for deterrence).
   1279. Count Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5694112)
FYI, until recently depending on the federal circuit you could claim fleeing gang violence or domestic violence in countries where the police didn’t protect you; Sessions issued an opinion last week trying to tighten this and limit claims from people who weren’t being directly persecuted by their government (I don’t know enough about the law to understand exactly what the effect of Sessions’ action is, and you can make a strong substantive argument that extending asylum to domestic violence or gang violence was a stretch, but the Trump administration wants to limit immigration because they don’t like brown people so hard to take their side when they try to tighten the rules). It’s not easy for applicants, particularly pro as ones, to win asylum anyway.
   1280. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5694114)
Death Squad Dossier

You've got to understand that it's the US ####### Cenral American immigrants both here and there. It's the longstanding policy of multiple US regimes to murder all who resist their peon lot.
   1281. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5694117)
   1282. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5694118)
. . . and you can make a strong substantive argument that extending asylum to domestic violence or gang violence was a stretch . . .

Crime and poverty exist world-wide, and always have, but neither is normally considered to be political persecution, which is the basis for legitimate political asylum claims.
   1283. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5694120)
Because that's the important part. It has to be legitimate otherwise we're sending you back to be killed.
   1284. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5694121)
you can make a strong substantive argument that extending asylum to domestic violence or gang violence was a stretch

Sure, as long as you buy into the administration's premise that morality has no place in asylum decisions, and remain indifferent to the real world consequences.
   1285. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5694122)
Clapper knows about legitimate asylum. His family fled Assholistan when the ruling regime ruled them too assholish for their tastes.
   1286. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5694123)
Because that's the important part. It has to be legitimate otherwise we're sending you back to be killed.


Clapper doesn't care about what's right, or moral, or decent. Only what's legal.
   1287. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5694126)
Since Sessions opened the door on biblical justification for our barbaric treatment of refugees, I wonder of he really understands it.

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. (Leviticus 19:33-34)

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ (Matthew 25:25-36)


For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)


I'm not saying we should base public policy on selected biblical verses. I'm just saying we shouldn't justify public policy based on selected biblical verses.
   1288. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5694129)
Clapper doesn't care about what's right, or moral, or decent. Only what's legal.

As long as his side also gets to pick the judges. It's like a perpetual motion machine.
   1289. Lassus Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5694135)
I haven’t said it’s not a problem (duh) just asked how people here would address it. Apparently such discussion can’t be had with any level of seriousness.

Ban the families together, imprison them together, return them together, and don't separate screaming, howling, infant children from their parents.

Then, when people actually answer you, acknowledge that they are answering you.

WTF is your damage that you can't even admit you have been answered?
   1290. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5694151)
Clapper doesn't care about what's right, or moral, or decent. Only what's legal.

Your tiresome claim that the left's whim-of-the-day trumps the actual law is without any basis. I would think that by now some would see the danger of allowing the Executive Branch to sub rosa revise statutes that they can't get Congress to change, but I guess we have some slow learners.
   1291. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5694154)
Clapper doesn't care about what's right, or moral, or decent. Only what's legal good for the GOP.

FTFY.
   1292. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5694156)
Your tiresome claim that the left's whim-of-the-day trumps the actual law is without any basis.


Right. Trump started doing something unprecedented 2 months ago, and the near universal condemnation of it is merely the left's whim of the day. God, you're a tool.
   1293. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5694170)
This problem was absolutely not a problem it is at its current scale before Trump. So yes, the answer is very simple. Have Trump and his cronies stop doing what they are doing. That will solve the problem.


As noted, the number of adults bringing children with them has been increasing.

What you're doing is akin to arguing, in the face of increasing commercial air travel from the 50s to the 70s, for a return to the status quo of the rules, regulations, and policies of the 50s.
   1294. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 01:17 AM (#5694171)
One can't oppose concentration camps if one doesn't "deal with the mechanics." Got it, Ray. You're a good little Vichy whore.


Obligatory:

SCOTT ADAMS' BLOG
PODCAST
Episode 107: The Holocaust Movie Half the Country is Experiencing

Posted June 17, 2018
   1295. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 01:20 AM (#5694172)
The problem is the most of the the claims for political asylum are not meritorious.

No. the problem is that Trump is doing this only to try to extort money from congress to build the wall. The moment they give in, this problem mysteriously disappears. Thus, it's not a problem.


The problem is that Congress -- both parties -- prefers the current situation. Otherwise they'd act to ameliorate it.
   1296. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 01:47 AM (#5694174)
Yes the increase has grown so much that it just happened to become a problem two months ago when Trump decided he wanted to play hardball over the wall. This is a manufactured issue.
   1297. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 01:48 AM (#5694175)
It wasn't a problem for decades. Trump decided to make it one for no real good reason.
   1298. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:02 AM (#5694176)
If their applications are later denied, they will be
unlikely to be ever found again. And if they are eventually found, people will argue that it's mean and cruel and unfair to deport them because they've been here for so long, even though they're already subject to a deportation order.
   1299. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:38 AM (#5694177)
No, the problem is that asylum is only granted on the narrowest possible grounds,
Why is that a problem? A well-founded fear of persecution is the standard in both federal and international law. (Not sure why that's being characterized as the narrowest possible grounds anyway.)
and usually without any real chance for the petitioners to present their case in any more than the most perfunctory way.
I'm guessing you know quite a lot about it (?). Which newspaper did you once read an article or op/ed in? WaPo or NYT?
We gladly send people back to a certain death in their own countries unless they can "prove" political persecution to the satisfaction of judges
There are those scare quotes again. (Talking about certain death begs the question, of course.) And, yes; that's the entire basis of our legal system. If you want something -- anything -- you have to prove your case to a judge. Not sure what you think the alternative would be.
who are predisposed to reject their claims,
Immigration judges are of notoriously poor quality, but that's not the same thing as saying that they're biased, and of course asylum applicants have multiple levels of appeal available to them.
There's about as much "rule of law" here as there was in the kangaroo courts of Alabama during Jeff Sessions' boyhood, which is clearly where he got his ideas about justice.
Once again, your basis for any of these claims -- or the scare quotes -- is?
   1300. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:41 AM (#5694178)
Flipsters.
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