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Monday, June 11, 2018

OTP 2018 June 11: Sports, politics conflicted 50 years ago with mourning of RFK’s death

If you think the intersection – and conflict – of sports and politics is something new, well, you haven’t been paying close enough attention to either for a very long time.

Don’t think so? Check out President Trump’s pardon of the controversial African-American heavyweight champion Jack Johnson, who held the title more than 100 years ago. His reign was consumed by the politics of the day. So it is no surprise that the debate over NFL players and the national anthem remains a divisive topic.

Anything that is going to have the powerful symbolism of sports —and the ability to unite, as we have seen right here in Washington during the Capitals’ Stanley Cup playoffs run — is also going to generate enough passion to divide as well, in death as well as life.

That was the case 50 years ago, as Major League Baseball tried to cope with the proper way to mourn the death of New York Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy on June 6, 1968.

 

I almost linked to a story with the tag line “Miguel Cabrera stands next to Detroit’s “Rally Goose” during the first game of a doubleheader vs. the Yankees on Monday. The Tigers lost the opener but won the nightcap” but opted for history instead of the goose.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 11, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 1349 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boxing, death, hockey, off-topic, politics, why can't we all just get along

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   501. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5691273)
Concession accepted to buy the flip...
   502. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5691274)
The folly here is believing that North Korean people have access to much beyond the cult of personality forced upon them. Thinking that there's any scenario where they'll 'blame the regime' is just fantastical.


I'm far from an expert on NK but I have read a decent amount about the country and the regime and it seems like Kim's biggest threats are, perhaps equally:

China
his military / state apparatus

A people's revolt, given the totalitarian lockdown the populace is under, seems quite remote. I would imagine, much like Russia, the "snitch on your neighbor so you don't get the gulag" prevails at an atomic level in society.

If you agree with that analysis then this summit just bought Kim an incredible amount of slack with China and any potential internal usuperes. Kim just "convinced" the US to give up joint Naval exercises with SK, what more could China possibly want? Christ.
   503. Srul Itza Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5691275)
what more could China possibly want?


Withdrawal of US Troops from South Korea, or at least a sharp reduction.

Which will be the next shoe to drop.

   504. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5691282)
It should be noted that while sanctions DO cause problems for relief organizations (higher costs, bureaucratic delays, etc) - the Kim regime has, on occasion, actually blocked humanitarian aid and relief orgs like CERF, WFP, and UNICEF itself.

What's more - it's not like relief orgs are just permitted into the country, even under close watch, to set up their own distribution centers or focus on hardest hit areas. People aren't just allowed to line up at the docks or such to receive food/medicine.

The regime tightly controls distribution - very much using famine as a weapon, just as Stalin once did.

IOW - how about Dear Leader (the GOP's, not NK's) doing something simple like requiring a precondition of CERF's unfettered access to humanitarian aid distribution for a summit?
   505. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5691284)
   506. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5691290)
I'm far from an expert on NK but I have read a decent amount about the country and the regime and it seems like Kim's biggest threats are, perhaps equally:


I'm also far from an expert but I have read a very large amount about NK, it's a weird fascination I have.

From what I have read the snitch culture is alive and well which obviously helps discourage popular rebellion, but at the same time, information about the outside world is steadily becoming more widespread, especially along the Northern border. There is a sizable smugglers/merchant class that regularly crosses the border and returns with not only goods but information and smart phones as well. DVD's of Western & SK movies and TV and widespread.

None of that is to say they're watching CNN and MNF every night, but the regime's grip on information is looser than it used to be and getting more so.

And while a popular rebellion is very unlikely, it isn't impossible to picture a Romanian style revolt where citizens align themselves with non-elite army units. Back in '09, when Kim Jong Il was still alive and the information flow much less than now, there was rioting in Pyongyang and other cities in response to currency revaluation which wiped out the savings & capital of many black/grey market participants.

Would I bet on a revolt tomorrow or even in the next year? No. But it's easy to envision a bloody revolt within a decade. It would probably be crushed brutally but even so it would be the beginning of the end.
   507. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5691292)
IOW - how about Dear Leader (the GOP's, not NK's) doing something simple like requiring a precondition of CERF's unfettered access to humanitarian aid distribution for a summit?


This just in - Ivanka Trump will be announcing the formation of TrumpAid to deliver critical humanitarian assistance to impoverished regions. Leveraging the power of capitalism to deliver the most efficient outcomes, TrumpAid promises to alleviate suffering in the most expeditious manner while providing fair market return to its shareholders.
   508. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5691293)
In more news that might be of interest to the Trumpkin concern trolls who cannot help but suggest that the not-so-silent minority can only be won over by ceasing being so mean to Trump...

A rather surprising first poll of the Ohio governor's race between DeWine and Cordray

Cordray has a seven point lead.... Both Sabato ("soft favorite") and Cook ("Lean Republican") - have (soon to be had?) DeWine as the favorite.

It's the first non-partisan poll - and it's only mid-June, of course - but as the Cincy Enquirer results and the TFA say...


COLUMBUS - Even in a strong year for Democrats, Republicans assumed they could count on the Ohio governor's race.

Maybe not.

A new Enquirer / Suffolk University poll – the first statewide, independent poll since the Ohio primary – showed Democrat Richard Cordray leading Republican Mike DeWine in the governor's race, 43 percent to 36 percent among likely voters.


And as the subhead for more results says --

Senate race: Dislike for Trump boosts Dem

Oh my... it's almost as if all the dots are forming yet another undeniable singularity.
   509. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5691294)
Cohen has agreed to cooperate with prosecutors. Just dropped.

Would I bet on a revolt tomorrow or even in the next year? No. But it's easy to envision a bloody revolt within a decade. It would probably be crushed brutally but even so it would be the beginning of the end.


Well if they need help controlling the populace they can just ask China! Not really much to add to your post otherwise, I'm in agreement.
   510. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5691298)
Cohen has agreed to cooperate with prosecutors. Just dropped.


Is this the ABC - now separately confirmed by several orgs - "likely to" or is it actually a statement by either Cohen or SDNY prosecutors?
   511. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5691304)
Is this the ABC - now separately confirmed by several orgs - "likely to" or is it actually a statement by either Cohen or SDNY prosecutors?


WSJ is hedging, they had a separate report this morning saying he's still undecided. I don't have any reason to not believe the ABC reports. Seems like a lot of smoke that he was about to flip.
   512. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5691307)
More Fake News, I'm sure.....

Antarctic ice loss has tripled in a decade. If that continues we are in serious trouble.
Antarctica’s ice sheet is melting at a rapidly increasing rate, now pouring more than 200 billion tons of ice into the ocean annually and raising sea levels a half millimeter every year, a team of 80 scientists reported Wednesday.

The melt rate has tripled in the past decade, the study concluded. If the acceleration continues, some of scientists’ worst fears about rising oceans could be realized, leaving low-lying cities and communities with less time to prepare than they’d hoped.

The result also reinforces that nations have a short window — perhaps no more than a decade — to cut greenhouse gas emissions if they hope to avert some of the worst consequences of climate change.

Antarctica, the planet’s largest ice sheet, lost 219 billion tons of ice annually from 2012 through 2017 — approximately triple the 73 billion ton melt rate of a decade ago, the scientists concluded. From 1992 through 1997, Antarctica lost 49 billion tons of ice annually.

The study is the product of a large group of Antarctic experts who collectively reviewed 24 recent measurements of Antarctic ice loss, reconciling their differences to produce the most definitive figures yet on changes in Antarctica. Their results — known formally as the “Ice Sheet Mass Balance Inter-comparison Exercise” (IMBIE) — were published Wednesday in the journal Nature.

“We took all the estimates across all the different techniques, and we got this consensus,” said Isabella Velicogna, an Antarctic expert at the University of California, Irvine, and one of the many authors from institutions in 14 separate countries. The lead author was Andrew Shepherd of the University of Leeds in the U.K. ...

Yes, but what do scientists know? THEY'RE ONLY SCIENTISTS!
   513. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5691312)
More Fake News, I'm sure.....


Well sure. It snowed somewhere in the US last year, didn't it?
   514. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5691319)
Well sure. It snowed somewhere in the US last year, didn't it?


I can't wait until 2025, when the East coast and midwest have sustained something like 4/7 historically brutal winters (thanks to arctic blocking) that the "climate change" message hits home. It's more than just overall warming that we need to worry about. It's the extremes.
   515. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5691321)
Apologize if this was noted yesterday, but this quote is too good to pass up:
“The leader's excretions contain information about his health status so they can't be left behind,”
-link

Amusingly, that was only the 9th-weirdest thing to come from the summit, according to the article.
   516. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5691331)
It's more than just overall warming that we need to worry about. It's the extremes.


Tell that to the stupids, like Senator Snowball
   517. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5691333)
pouring more than 200 billion tons of ice into the ocean annually and raising sea levels a half millimeter every year

Look on the bright side, the Rays will finally get their new ballpark. Probably in Dothan, Alabama, at this rate.
   518. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5691347)
Could be quite a Friday!

Trump's campaign manager gets his bail revoked and goes to jail to prevent him from further obstruction and witness tampering, while Trump's lawyer flips and becomes a cooperating witness!

All the connected dots are collapsing into a singularity that even Concession Boy may not be able feign inability to connect them...
Oh, I can tell you what Ray and FLTB will say: "Oh yeah? Sure, Trump has been impeached and is being hauled away in handcuffs... but the prosecution was still a failure because he wasn't convicted of conspiring with Putin! Nyah, Nyah! Told you so!"
   519. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5691349)
In addition to the CE poll above -

Quinnipiac just dropped a poll that also shows Cordray ahead of DeWine - albeit just by an MOE 2 points.

Expect this race to move from "lean Republican" to toss-up soon...
   520. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5691350)
Oh, I can tell you what Ray and FLTB will say: "Oh yeah? Sure, Trump has been impeached and is being hauled away in handcuffs... but the prosecution was still a failure because he wasn't convicted of conspiring with Putin! Nyah, Nyah! Told you so!"


May all our endeavors be comprised of such failures...
   521. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5691360)

Laura Ingraham

@IngrahamAngle

PRUITT BAD JUDGMENT HURTING @POTUS, GOTTA GO: Pruitt had aide, GOP donors help wife find job: report http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/392021-pruitt-had-aide-gop-donors-help-wife-find-job-report#.WyE0960l8PU.twitter …
10:18 AM - Jun 13, 2018
   522. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5691361)
Trump has been impeached and is being hauled away in handcuffs

More selected responses:

"Yes, but wait till the memos come out revealing the bias of the agents who handcuffed him. BOOM."

"This is totally normal Presidential activity. You only think this is news because the MSM wouldn't report all the times Obama was led away in handcuffs."

"Unless the corrupt officials we elect remain in office till the next election, democracy is dead."

"You know who else was led away in handcuffs? Jesus! Sort of."

"This is 19-D chess, folks, he's suckered you again."

   523. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5691367)
Feels like Trump gave the go ahead for Laura to throw Pruitt under the bus. If Hannity does the same (and Dobbs) we'll know Pruitt's goose is cooked.

Why did Jason leave us? I'd love to here him spin this week's developments.
   524. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5691369)
@552: You forgot: "But... but.... HILLARY!"
   525. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5691380)

522: Needs more references to TDS.
   526. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5691382)
522: Needs more references to TDS.


And some LOLs...

"He's only going to prison for two years? LOL"

   527. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5691391)
No Juanabouts? You bozos are living in a dreamworld.
   528. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5691393)
522: Needs more references to TDS.


That's self-evident.
   529. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5691395)
No Juanabouts? You bozos are living in a dreamworld.


"I noticed you didn't say anything when Napoleon was hauled away in handcuffs."
   530. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5691399)
Is this really necessary to make America great again? If it is, I vote we go back to not so great.

The undocumented immigrant from Honduras sobbed as she told an attorney Tuesday how federal authorities took her daughter while she breastfed the child in a detention center, where she was awaiting prosecution for entering the country illegally.

When the woman resisted, she was handcuffed, Natalia Cornelio, the attorney with the Texas Civil Rights Project, recalled from her interview with the woman, who had been detained under the Trump administration's zero-tolerance policy to refer anyone caught crossing the border illegally for federal prosecution.
   531. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5691406)
Speaking of handcuffs, does anyone know how the removal process works should the Senate vote to convict?

Do US marshals show up to escort him out, guns & cuffs ready if he doesn't co-operate?
Do they toss his furniture out on the sidewalk?
Does Melania get removed with him?
   532. Greg K Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5691408)
   533. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5691409)
I wonder how Steve King's referenced GOP supporters are going to feel about Trump being possibly flipped on by a lawyer of... less-than-acceptable genetic background?
   534. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5691411)
Why did Jason leave us? I'd love to here him spin this week's developments.
Jason doesn't play defense.
   535. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5691413)
Is this really necessary to make America great again? If it is, I vote we go back to not so great.


You really want to feel sick? Apparently ICE agents are now telling mothers that "they are taking the child for a bath". I can hardly believe this is America. I don't really get outraged too much over this stuff, I tend to take a utilitarian view and are probably as good as ever for the vast majority of people but this is just sickening.
   536. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5691414)
I don't think this is going to end well for America. I hope that I am wrong, but I don't see a path back to normalcy that doesn't involve a complete revolution; and I don't think that will happen. I fear we are witnessing the beginning (or possibly the middle) of the end.
   537. DavidFoss Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5691419)
>Why did Jason leave us? I'd love to here him spin this week's developments.

Jason doesn't play defense.


Yeah, just go to dailycaller. The IG report is coming soon. Rosenstein is apparently investigating Republican Staffers. There's some conference of progressive liberals where I'm sure wishlist items included as applause-lines to a very friendly rally-type audience will now be used to scare moderate voters.
   538. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5691423)
You really want to feel sick? Apparently ICE agents are now telling mothers that "they are taking the child for a bath". I can hardly believe this is America. I don't really get outraged too much over this stuff, I tend to take a utilitarian view and are probably as good as ever for the vast majority of people but this is just sickening.
If it makes you feel any better, they are usually not actual ICE agents, but rather contractors hired to support ICE. And the detention centers are mostly commercial.
   539. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5691425)
I don't think this is going to end well for America. I hope that I am wrong, but I don't see a path back to normalcy that doesn't involve a complete revolution; and I don't think that will happen. I fear we are witnessing the beginning (or possibly the middle) of the end.


I liken 2018 USA to 3rd century Rome: an undisputed great power beginning to unravel due to stagnation, corruption and loss of vitality. Rome righted the ship and hung around another couple centuries (+/-) but they only barely survived, and even had some secessions/split offs before rebounding.

America can survive Trump. What it cannot survive is a parade of more Trumps. If the office of POTUS becomes one of corrupt media figures, then it's hell/handbasket within a generation. And I don't think we can dodge that bullet without a massive campaign to create a truly educated, informed and intelligent population.

Merle Haggard said the decline started in '75. Some would say '79. But if we don't purge & puke the societal rot that gave us such a joke of a POTUS then obviously the history books will say it started with the first tweet about Kenyan birth certificates.
   540. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5691428)
If it makes you feel any better, they are usually not actual ICE agents, but rather contractors hired to support ICE. And the detention centers are mostly commercial.


Less oversight, makes me even sicker.
   541. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5691429)
Merle Haggard said the decline started in '75. Some would say '79. But if we don't purge & puke the societal rot that gave us such a joke of a POTUS then obviously the history books will say it started with the first tweet about Kenyan birth certificates.
Not Rush Limbaugh's first national radio show?
   542. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5691432)
If it makes you feel any better, they are usually not actual ICE agents, but rather contractors hired to support ICE. And the detention centers are mostly commercial.

I'm not sure that should make anyone feel better.
   543. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5691440)
I'm not sure that should make anyone feel better.
Speaking of IG reports:

The inspector general’s recent audit found problems at four of five ICE facilities, including Otero. Discovered during surprise inspections, auditors at various sites found evidence of systematic and suspicionless strip searches, rotten food and moldy bathrooms, the misuse of segregation, the denial of communications and long delays for medical care.

Specific to Otero, federal inspectors observed nonworking telephones, unsanitary bathrooms and unjustified lockdowns and solitary confinements.

“ICE detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody, which is not supposed to be punitive,” the Inspector General’s Office states in its Dec. 11 report. “The problems we identified undermine the protection of detainees’ rights, their humane treatment and the provision of a safe and healthy environment.”

Regional ICE spokesman Carl Rusnok stated in an email that “ICE is confident in conditions and high standards of care at its detention facilities.”

For its part, Management and Training Corp. wrote that, contrary to the inspectors’ findings at Otero, the facility was not in violation of standards.

...

At the time, a scandal surrounding deaths in custody attributed to medical neglect was enveloping a different for-profit prison, the Cibola County Correctional Center. In the aftermath of investigative reporting that brought four deaths there to light, the prison’s corporate owner and operator, CoreCivic, faced an early contract termination with the Bureau of Prisons in the summer of 2016. But by fall, the private prison giant picked up $150 million in new business with ICE, and the facility was up and running as an immigrant detention center by the end of the year. The vendor now in charge of health care has been sued twice in New Mexico civil court for deaths due to medical neglect.

Management and Training Corp., meanwhile, has been named as a defendant in New Mexico lawsuits around 30 times, according to a review of court records.
Direct link to report (pdf).
   544. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5691446)
You want to talk decline you can talk about the GOP's obsession with outsourcing what should be government work to private contractors. It's less efficient, not more, and leads to less oversight. And it's another form of corporate welfare.
   545. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5691457)
It's less efficient, not more, and leads to less oversight. And it's another form of corporate welfare

Absolutely. I doubt the motive is ever really efficiency. It's a realization that a large amount of money is flowing through an institution, but entrepreneurs aren't intercepting any of it.

And it's hardly limited to Republicans. Neoliberal outsourcing of everything is a bipartisan venture, Chicago parking meters being Exhibit A – though in Chicago, neoliberal corporate welfare is hard to tell from plain old graft.
   546. perros Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5691458)
   547. canadian shield Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5691466)
Jose Luis Garcia, 62, was watering his lawn and having his morning coffee outside his home in the Arleta neighborhood of San Fernando Valley when ICE agents put him in handcuffs and detained him, according to his daughter, Natalie Garcia.

The arrest came as a shock to the 32-year-old Garcia, who said that her father is a law-abiding, legal permanent resident who came to the United States nearly 50 years ago when he was 13 years old.

He attended Van Nuys High School, and raised his family in Glendale, she said.
   548. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5691471)
@realdonaldtrump:
The reason great dealmakers do not OPENLY celebrate a deal, especially one that is not complete, is that it shows weakness to the other side
   549. DavidFoss Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5691479)
@realdonaldtrump: The reason great dealmakers do not OPENLY celebrate a deal, especially one that is not complete, is that it shows weakness to the other side

Ah... one of those retweets from the past. This one is from 2013.

   550. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5691481)
@larrysabato:
Longtime major GOP donors and campaign workers in VA have told me last night and today that with Corey Stewart’s nomination, they are “done” with the party. Last straw, they say. Hard to know how widespread this is, but it’s not good news for Republicans.

Maybe we'll even get a forceful 'yeah, that's not good' from BBTF's own GOP operative in regards Corey Stewart's rise through the ranks of the Republican Party.
   551. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5691482)
America can survive Trump


I don't think it can survive the threat to our rule of law that Trump represents. If the POTUS can act this way and get away with it in the long term, I just don't think it bodes well. Maybe I'm overreacting, but it just seems futile.
   552. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5691483)
Jose Luis Garcia, 62, was watering his lawn and having his morning coffee outside his home in the Arleta neighborhood of San Fernando Valley when ICE agents put him in handcuffs and detained him, according to his daughter, Natalie Garcia.

The arrest came as a shock to the 32-year-old Garcia, who said that her father is a law-abiding, legal permanent resident who came to the United States nearly 50 years ago when he was 13 years old.

He attended Van Nuys High School, and raised his family in Glendale, she said.


More FTA:

Garcia said her father has a conviction for a misdemeanor stemming from a domestic violence dispute with her mother that occurred 18 years ago. Her father completed his sentence for that conviction, which was anger management classes and reporting to probation, she said.

ICE officials confirmed in a statement that Garcia, who is a citizen of Mexico, was arrested by deportation officers on Sunday.

“Databases reveal that Mr. Garcia has past criminal convictions that make him amenable to removal from the United States,” the statement said. “Mr. Garcia is currently in ICE custody pending removal proceedings, where an immigration judge with the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) will determine whether or not he has a lawful basis to remain in the United States.”


Jesus ####### Christ. If any of you right wing ######## try to defend this by citing "Well, he shouldn't have committed a crime" I'll send Sam over to stab you in the neck. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. This is the ####### opposite of making America great.
   553. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5691485)
You want to talk decline you can talk about the GOP's obsession with outsourcing what should be government work to private contractors. It's less efficient, not more

Private businesses are only more efficient because there is competition. Remove competition, and companies just profit maximize.
   554. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5691494)
Absolutely. I doubt the motive is ever really efficiency. It's a realization that a large amount of money is flowing through an institution, but entrepreneurs aren't intercepting any of it.
Suspect the main factors are laziness on the part of government officials, and arcane rules that limit hiring.

For example, Congress limits the authorized size of the military (10 USC ch31-32). It takes years to train an aircraft maintainer. Therefore it makes a ton of sense to pay Lockheed Martin to maintain your airplanes- you don't sacrifice billets, you don't have to spend time training someone (and maintaining a training infrastructure), you don't have to spend your time doing performance appraisals, and the cost is transferrable. Same goes for gate guards, system engineers, cooks, etc.

What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison. I can understand being a bottom-5 percenter and having to work as a guard at one, because it's the only thing hiring in ####-town New Mexico, but how evil do you have to be, how craven, to be an exec at one of those places?

   555. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5691501)
What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison. I can understand being a bottom-5 percenter and having to work as a guard at one, because it's the only thing hiring in ####-town New Mexico, but how evil do you have to be, how craven, to be an exec at one of those places?


Small sample size, but back in the 90's I did some business with a couple of execs in that industry. They didn't strike me as evil or craven so much as completely emotionless. They could have just as easily been building homes or selling tractors or any other anodyne business. They were walking Excel spreadsheets, Lt. Spock was warmly human compared to them.
   556. -- Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5691510)
I don't think this is going to end well for America. I hope that I am wrong, but I don't see a path back to normalcy that doesn't involve a complete revolution; and I don't think that will happen. I fear we are witnessing the beginning (or possibly the middle) of the end.


But America hasn't Declined, oh no, it hasn't. Not in the slightest, and we have a new Madden edition coming out this fall.

Some would say '79.


The Decline started well before Trump and the historical strands comprising it all began or accelerated in a secular way right around 1979. In a nutshell, for starters, look at the history of (1) the NRA and gun culture generally; (2) the Moral Majority; (3) supply-side economics and the triumph of finance; and (4) median middle-class incomes. Gun nuttery, religious nuttery, economic nuttery. All got rolling in around 1979. Then add on the multicultural nuttery strand, which really starts picking up in around 1987-88, and you pretty much have the entire Decline right in front of you staring you in the face like a pack of rabid dogs. September 11 and 21st century social media were accelerants -- the functional equivalent of bringing in the current edition of Matt Harvey with the bases loaded and a one-run lead in the 7th game of the World Series after you've already blown an 8-0 lead.

Donald Trump and the populist rise (*) are symptoms of the Decline that long predates them. Nothing more.

(*) As well as the utterly dysfunctional political system.
   557. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5691515)
But what does Decline look like?
   558. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5691524)
Declown
   559. DavidFoss Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5691525)
But what does Decline look like?

... and what would America look like if there had been no decline?
   560. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5691528)
For example, Congress limits the authorized size of the military (10 USC ch31-32). It takes years to train an aircraft maintainer. Therefore it makes a ton of sense to pay Lockheed Martin to maintain your airplanes- you don't sacrifice billets, you don't have to spend time training someone (and maintaining a training infrastructure), you don't have to spend your time doing performance appraisals, and the cost is transferrable. Same goes for gate guards, system engineers, cooks, etc.


I'd like to know what kind of training it takes to be a cook in the Army. "It says #### ON a shingle, not #### dangling over the side of a shingle!"
   561. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5691532)
Suspect the main factors are laziness on the part of government officials, and arcane rules that limit hiring.

For example, Congress limits the authorized size of the military (10 USC ch31-32). It takes years to train an aircraft maintainer. Therefore it makes a ton of sense to pay Lockheed Martin to maintain your airplanes- you don't sacrifice billets, you don't have to spend time training someone (and maintaining a training infrastructure), you don't have to spend your time doing performance appraisals, and the cost is transferrable. Same goes for gate guards, system engineers, cooks, etc.

There are a few places in the federal government where the ceiling on employees doesn't align with the money available, so contractors are hired to perform work that could be done by government employees. A better budgeting process would address that, but I doubt we'll ever see that level of perfection. However, contractors are more often used for work that isn't inherently governmental, such as janitorial services, where the government isn't that good at filling high turnover jobs. You don't see government employees staffing cafeteria positions anymore at agencies large enough to have such facilities, and that's for the better. The other appropriate use of contractors is for short-term projects where it doesn't make a lot of sense to hire a large number of people and let them go a year later. IT systems are the classic example, but it seems like every IT firm can drag out the design process forever, and make it necessary to retain the contractor to operate the system if it is ever completed.
   562. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5691533)
Yikes! The proposal to split California into three pieces actually qualified for the November ballot. L.A. Times story

OK, I think it will fail. I hope it will fail. I'll personally vote against it. And even if the ballot somehow passes, which I don't expect, Congress would have to approve - and why would they?

I would live in "California" but within walking distance of the state line with "Southern California." The state supported university I teach at would be located in "California" but at least 30% of its current students are from "Southern California." (Untangling the university systems and their support would be a very messy issue.)

In the entire history of the U.S. after the adoption of the Constitution, there have been exactly two instances of the fission of states - and both of those were the direct consequence of war on American soil. The last I checked the neighborhood, I didn't see a shooting war in progress.

Among the reasons for thinking it won't pass:

It does nothing for the long-time "State of Jefferson" agitators, as they'd still be a small-population rural backwater massively outvoted by the urbanists in the Bay Area and in Sacramento.

Having the San Joaquin Valley part of a state whose largest city is San Diego would be just weird.

Much of the politics of the San Joaquin Valley is about water. Having the bulk of the water belong to a different state would not be what they want.

What's in it for the big cities? In particular, why would Los Angeles County vote for it? There are an awful lot of votes there.
   563. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5691535)
Jesus ####### Christ. If any of you right wing ######## try to defend this by citing "Well, he shouldn't have committed a crime" I'll send Sam over to stab you in the neck. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. This is the ####### opposite of making America great.
A Hispanic from California that isn't even American wasn't likely to vote for Trump. In fact, he probably voted for HRC, illegally, several times. What did you expect?
   564. -- Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5691536)
... and what would America look like if there had been no decline?


Like it did in 1979 with a far better economy and far better fashion sense. As well as some continued advances in individual liberties.
   565. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5691544)
Gun nuttery, religious nuttery, economic nuttery


I can agree with all of that. Where you lose me is the mildly racist rambling about multicultural "nuttery".
   566. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5691551)
Why did Jason leave us? I'd love to here him spin this week's developments.

FWIW he's still tweeting up a storm, but it may be the Mets who finally drove him underground around here.
   567. dlf Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5691554)
What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison. I can understand being a bottom-5 percenter and having to work as a guard at one, because it's the only thing hiring in ####-town New Mexico, but how evil do you have to be, how craven, to be an exec at one of those places?


Not quite parallel and running into danger of actually being baseball related, but HOF pitcher Don Sutton's brother Ron was a prison warden in the Alabama Dept of Corrections system, including, for a lengthy time, running the facility where death sentences were carried out. Ron, unfortunately, did not have the perm.
   568. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5691557)
OK, I think it will fail. I hope it will fail. I'll personally vote against it. And even if the ballot somehow passes, which I don't expect, Congress would have to approve - and why would they?

I can't see the Congress approving this if passed, but there seems to be a pretty good case that it also violates the California Constitution. It's the type of major Constitutional revision that can't be done through the Initiative process, but it apparently doesn't even purport to amend the State Constitution, attempting to achieve its goal by amending an obscure state statute. It appears that the propriety of the Initiative would only be determined if someone brings a lawsuit challenging its placement on the ballot, but my guess is that is likely. Weird state.
   569. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5691559)
The arrest came as a shock to the 32-year-old Garcia, who said that her father is a law-abiding, legal permanent resident
Well, other than the criminal conviction, she means. It's rather dishonest to bury that lede. Whether he's eligible to be deported, or whether he should be a priority for deportation even if he's eligible, are separate questions. But the excerpt made it sound as if it was a mistake in some way.
   570. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5691560)
In the entire history of the U.S. after the adoption of the Constitution, there have been exactly two instances of the fission of states - and both of those were the direct consequence of war on American soil. The last I checked the neighborhood, I didn't see a shooting war in progress.


Which are you omitting: VT, ME, or WV?
   571. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5691566)
Which are you omitting: VT, ME, or WV?

From what I can tell, the effective separation of Vermont happened before the adoption of the constitution, which was my reference. So that's the one I omitted. But even if you include it, the Revolutionary War looms in its background. Also before the adoption of the constitution: a whole bunch of Atlantic coastal states gave up their far western claims. I was including Maine, whose separation from Massachusetts seems to have been precipitated by the failure of the MA militia to effectively defend them during the War of 1812.
   572. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5691567)
You really want to feel sick? Apparently ICE agents are now telling mothers that "they are taking the child for a bath".

Well, at least they didn't say they were taking them for a shower, so please, no 3rd Reich comparisons!

I can hardly believe this is America. I don't really get outraged too much over this stuff, I tend to take a utilitarian view and are probably as good as ever for the vast majority of people but this is just sickening.

That's the Understatement of the Year. Sessions and ICE are where the rotted racist soul of Trump and his fanboys most surely reveals itself. The conflict between law and morality hasn't been drawn this starkly since the days of Jim Crow. Trump's canoodling with Putin is almost innocent by comparison.
   573. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5691569)
None of this would be happening if you hippies had just been nicer.
   574. -- Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5691570)
Where you lose me is the mildly racist rambling about multicultural "nuttery".


The fact that you would denote it "mildly racist" is itself proof positive of the nuttery.
   575. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5691571)
Longtime major GOP donors and campaign workers in VA have told me last night and today that with Corey Stewart’s nomination, they are “done” with the party. Last straw, they say. Hard to know how widespread this is, but it’s not good news for Republicans.

Maybe we'll even get a forceful 'yeah, that's not good' from BBTF's own GOP operative in regards Corey Stewart's rise through the ranks of the Republican Party.

I'm sure he'd say "I didn't vote for him in the primary". But that was then, and this is now.
   576. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5691573)
What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison. I can understand being a bottom-5 percenter and having to work as a guard at one, because it's the only thing hiring in ####-town New Mexico, but how evil do you have to be, how craven, to be an exec at one of those places?

Small sample size, but back in the 90's I did some business with a couple of execs in that industry. They didn't strike me as evil or craven so much as completely emotionless. They could have just as easily been building homes or selling tractors or any other anodyne business. They were walking Excel spreadsheets, Lt. Spock was warmly human compared to them.

Don't be too hard on them. They were just following taking orders.
   577. BrianBrianson Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5691575)
Private businesses are only more efficient because there is competition. Remove competition, and companies just profit maximize.


The idea that private businesses are more efficient doesn't really have any empirical basis. It's an article of faith. Certainly, privatisation can be used as a cover to slash wages/safety standards/service and pass the buck on the blame. But "lousier service for less money" isn't really more efficient.
   578. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5691579)
The fact that you would denote it "mildly racist" is itself proof positive of the nuttery.


The fact that I would denote it "mildly racist" is proof that I am generous.

Also I fully agree with you that America in in decline. The reason for America's decline is that people like you are afraid of different cultures.
   579. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5691580)
Yikes! The proposal to split California into three pieces actually qualified for the November ballot. L.A. Times story

OK, I think it will fail. I hope it will fail. I'll personally vote against it. And even if the ballot somehow passes, which I don't expect, Congress would have to approve - and why would they?
Wow, that's a bad plan. A "socal" consisting of "riverside/bako/fresno/SD" would be very bad for SD residents.
   580. -- Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5691581)
--
   581. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5691583)
Yikes! The proposal to split California into three pieces actually qualified for the November ballot. L.A. Times story

OK, I think it will fail. I hope it will fail. I'll personally vote against it. And even if the ballot somehow passes, which I don't expect, Congress would have to approve - and why would they?


Personally I'd rather just combine Idaho/Montana/Wyoming/Utah/South Dakota/North Dakota/Kansas/Nebraska into one big state with electoral votes corresponding to their combined populations + 2 for their 2 Senators. They can even call it The Great White State if it'll make them feel any better.
   582. bunyon Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5691586)
In the entire history of the U.S. after the adoption of the Constitution, there have been exactly two instances of the fission of states - and both of those were the direct consequence of war on American soil. The last I checked the neighborhood, I didn't see a shooting war in progress.

Yeah, but give it until November.
   583. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5691588)
Wow, that's a bad plan. A "socal" consisting of "riverside/bako/fresno/SD" would be very bad for SD residents.

In effect, that's the gerrymander. A grouping of San Diego, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, and Imperial Counties would have voted pretty comfortably for the Democratic candidate in the last couple of elections, running up comfortable margins for the D in San Diego County and largely splitting the other large counties. Adding the San Joaquin Valley (especially Kern County) would nudge it back toward a tossup and hence give the R's a chance to maybe elect a senator or grab the electoral votes.

It is possible to drive from San Diego to Bakersfield or Fresno without passing through Los Angeles County - the 15 to the 395 and then west through Mojave and the Tehachapi pass. Still doesn't make it a natural grouping.
   584. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5691595)
The proposal to split California into three pieces actually qualified for the November ballot.

I love California, I miss California, and I would even like to move back to California.

That is a completely stupid plan and I award no points.
   585. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5691601)
The idea that private businesses are more efficient doesn't really have any empirical basis. It's an article of faith.

There is plenty of evidence. Private businesses provide what people want in a more efficient way. Go to any grocery store and you can see this. The problems come with natural monopolies and government intervention. Prisons should not be run by private corporations though.
   586. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5691603)
I just opened the link in #515, and it reminded me of how much the Chrome plugin Make America Kittens Again has done to keep me happy. It attempts to replace any picture of Trump with a picture of a kitten. So for the link in 515 I saw this. Sometimes it puts kittens in the place of pictures of things other than Donald Trump (Melania Trump, the Trump Tower), but that's a small price to pay for never having to see his face.
   587. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5691608)
Personally I'd rather just combine Idaho/Montana/Wyoming/Utah/South Dakota/North Dakota/Kansas/Nebraska into one big state with electoral votes corresponding to their combined populations + 2 for their 2 Senators. They can even call it The Great White State if it'll make them feel any better.

Government according to Andy's whims remains unlikely.
   588. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5691609)
There is plenty of evidence. Private businesses provide what people want in a more efficient way. Go to any grocery store and you can see this. The problems come with natural monopolies and government intervention. Prisons should not be run by private corporations though.

Not really true. An economic market will give the people what they want in the most efficient way but individual businesses within that market will come and go, rise and fall, succeed and fail all the time.
   589. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5691616)
The proposal to split California into three pieces

Why only 3? You could make it 4-6 easily. Texas too. Maybe Florida.
   590. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5691620)
Not really true. An economic market will give the people what they want in the most efficient way but individual businesses within that market will come and go, rise and fall, succeed and fail all the time.


There is not really a free market for government services here or anywhere in the world. A market for prisons doesn't really make that much sense, while a market for fixing cars does. So the government outsourcing car repairs makes sense, because you can outsource to the market, while outsourcing imprisoning people really doesn't.
   591. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5691621)
Holy ####, Kushner has apparently pushed Trump to pardon "many rappers". Ray, great minds think alike, you and the Kush!
   592. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5691624)
Personally I'd rather just combine Idaho/Montana/Wyoming/Utah/South Dakota/North Dakota/Kansas/Nebraska into one big state with electoral votes corresponding to their combined populations + 2 for their 2 Senators. They can even call it The Great White State if it'll make them feel any better.

Government according to Andy's whims remains unlikely.


While government according to Donald Trump's digestive system is an everyday occurrence. And you seem perfectly fine with it.
   593. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5691627)
Why only 3? You could make it 4-6 easily. Texas too. Maybe Florida.

A few years back, the same guy (Draper) was floating a 6-way split. It would have been 5 medium-to-large states and one tiny one. The tiny one would have been "Jefferson." The 6-state plan also split Orange/Riverside/San Bernardino apart from Los Angeles and grouped them with San Diego. The Bay Area was split in two at the Golden Gate bridge, with Marin/Sonoma/Napa grouped with Sacramento and Tahoe. In the 6-state setup, Stockton/Fresno/Bakersfield would have been its own landlocked state. He circulated petitions but didn't draw enough signatures to put it on the ballot. The main thing that happened between then and now were some rule changes that made it easier to qualify for the ballot.
   594. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5691630)
Holy ####, Kushner has apparently pushed Trump to pardon "many rappers". Ray, great minds think alike, you and the Kush!


Is Suge Knight in jail?
   595. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5691632)
Some essays are letters into the future. “The Prevention of Literature” is one such essay, and today I’d like to respond to it from 2018.

Orwell argues that totalitarianism makes literature impossible. By literature, he means all kinds of writing in prose, from imaginative fiction to political journalism; he suggests that verse might slip through the cracks. He writes, too, that there is such a thing as “groups of people who have adopted a totalitarian outlook”—single-truth communities of sorts, not just totalitarian regimes or entire countries. These are deadly to literature as well.

Orwell was writing in 1946, five or seven years before scholarly works by Hannah Arendt, on the one hand, and Karl Friedrich, on the other, provided the definitions of totalitarianism that are still in use today. Orwell’s own “Nineteen Eighty-Four,” which provides the visceral understanding of totalitarianism that we still conjure up today, was a couple of years away. Orwell was in the process of imagining totalitarianism—he had, of course, never lived in a totalitarian society.

He imagined two major traits of totalitarian societies: one is lying, and the other is what he called schizophrenia. He wrote, “The organized lying practiced by totalitarian states is not, as it is sometimes claimed, a temporary expedient of the same nature as military deception. It is something integral to totalitarianism, something that would still continue even if concentration camps and secret police forces had ceased to be necessary.” The lying entailed constantly rewriting the past to accommodate the present. “This kind of thing happens everywhere,” he wrote, “but is clearly likelier to lead to outright falsification in societies where only one opinion is permissible at any given moment. Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.”

He goes on to imagine that “a totalitarian society which succeeded in perpetuating itself would probably set up a schizophrenic system of thought, in which the laws of common sense held good in everyday life and in certain exact sciences, but could be disregarded by the politician, the historian, and the sociologist.”

Orwell was right. The totalitarian regime rests on lies because they are lies. The subject of the totalitarian regime must accept them not as truth—must not, in fact, believe them—but accept them both as lies and as the only available reality. She must believe nothing. Just as Orwell predicted, over time the totalitarian regime destroys the very concept, the very possibility of truth. Hannah Arendt identified this as one of the effects of totalitarian propaganda: it makes everything conceivable because “nothing is true.”


Fake News!11!!!!
   596. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:04 PM (#5691633)
Personally I'd rather just combine Idaho/Montana/Wyoming/Utah/South Dakota/North Dakota/Kansas/Nebraska into one big state with electoral votes corresponding to their combined populations + 2 for their 2 Senators. They can even call it The Great White State if it'll make them feel any better.

Government according to Andy's whims remains unlikely.
While government according to Donald Trump's digestive system is an everyday occurrence. And you seem perfectly fine with it.

I don't believe the President has proposed abolishing 7 states, unlike you. I think it's unlikely he'll ever make such a proposal, but if he does, I'd be against it. Until someone else proposes such nuttery, I can only oppose your version.
   597. The Fallen Reputation of Billy Jo Robidoux Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5691638)
   598. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5691639)
Some essays are letters into the future. “The Prevention of Literature” is one such essay, and today I’d like to respond to it from 2018


This was a good read.

The Republican Party is particularly well-positioned to subsist on a steady diet of obvious lies because of their Creationist underpinning, which combines sneering anti-intellectualism against the learner “elites” with a childlike willingness to accept obvious fictions as preferable to reality.
   599. Zonk was SHOCKED by #6! Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5691640)
Also I fully agree with you that America in in decline. The reason for America's decline is that people like you are afraid of different cultures.


There aren't enough white kids to go around!!!!
   600. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5691642)
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