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Monday, June 11, 2018

OTP 2018 June 11: Sports, politics conflicted 50 years ago with mourning of RFK’s death

If you think the intersection – and conflict – of sports and politics is something new, well, you haven’t been paying close enough attention to either for a very long time.

Don’t think so? Check out President Trump’s pardon of the controversial African-American heavyweight champion Jack Johnson, who held the title more than 100 years ago. His reign was consumed by the politics of the day. So it is no surprise that the debate over NFL players and the national anthem remains a divisive topic.

Anything that is going to have the powerful symbolism of sports —and the ability to unite, as we have seen right here in Washington during the Capitals’ Stanley Cup playoffs run — is also going to generate enough passion to divide as well, in death as well as life.

That was the case 50 years ago, as Major League Baseball tried to cope with the proper way to mourn the death of New York Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy on June 6, 1968.

 

I almost linked to a story with the tag line “Miguel Cabrera stands next to Detroit’s “Rally Goose” during the first game of a doubleheader vs. the Yankees on Monday. The Tigers lost the opener but won the nightcap” but opted for history instead of the goose.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 11, 2018 at 07:41 AM | 1349 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boxing, death, hockey, off-topic, politics, why can't we all just get along

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   601. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5691643)
Flop
   602. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5691644)
I'd be OK with forgetting the Civil War and letting the former Confederacy go its own way. That's either 11 or 14 states depending how strictly one counts.
   603. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5691646)
I don't believe the President has proposed abolishing 7 states


I don't believe the President could NAME 7 states.
   604. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5691647)
I don't believe the President has proposed abolishing 7 states, unlike you. I think it's unlikely he'll ever make such a proposal, but if he does, I'd be against it.


I call bullshit.

You've NEVER said even the slightest word of opposition to a single thing Trump has done or said. Never. In the slightest.

The idea that you ever would is farcical. Nobody believes it. I doubt YOU even do. So why bother saying it? Is it part of your devolution? Saying things nobody believes just to say them?

   605. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5691648)

I don't believe the President could NAME 7 states.


Sure, he can name them, probably more than 7.

But he probably can't spell them.
   606. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5691653)
I call bullshit.

You've NEVER said even the slightest word of opposition to a single thing Trump has done or said. Never. In the slightest.

The idea that you ever would is farcical. Nobody believes it. I doubt YOU even do. So why bother saying it? Is it part of your devolution? Saying things nobody believes just to say them?


Trump does 10 things a week that are nuttier than Andy's proposal, and Clapper has never uttered a negative syllable. But THIS is where he draws the line? Yeah, bullshit.
   607. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:33 PM (#5691655)
I'd be OK with forgetting the Civil War and letting the former Confederacy go its own way. That's either 11 or 14 states depending how strictly one counts.


I believe this is the appropriate response.

Only way to be sure ...
   608. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:33 PM (#5691657)
Where the state universities would wind up in the 3-way split. I assume that all of them currently have a large number of students whom the proposal would render as out-of-state.

U.C. system:

[North Cal]
Davis
Berkeley
Santa Cruz
San Francisco (medical campus)

[Cal]
Santa Barbara
Los Angeles

[South Cal]
Merced
Riverside
Irvine
San Diego

Cal State System:

[North Cal]
Chico
Humboldt
Sacramento
Sonoma
San Francisco
East Bay
San Jose
Cal. Maritime Acad.

[Cal]
Monterey Bay
Channel Islands
Northridge
Los Angeles
Dominguez Hills
Long Beach
Cal Poly SLO
Cal Poly Pomona

[South Cal]
Stanislaus
Fresno
Bakersfield
San Bernardino
Fullerton
San Marcos
San Diego

The previous 6-way split would have stranded Chico and Humboldt in a state too small to support them.
   609. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5691659)
Another good column by Frank Bruni on TDS and its threat to lose the midterms and re-elect T.

Dear Robert De Niro, Samantha Bee and other Trump haters:

I get that you’re angry. I’m angry, too. But anger isn’t a strategy. Sometimes it’s a trap. When you find yourself spewing four-letter words, you’ve fallen into it. You’ve chosen cheap theatrics over the long game, catharsis over cunning. You think you’re raising your fist when you’re really raising a white flag.

You’re right that Donald Trump is a dangerous and deeply offensive man, and that restraining and containing him are urgent business. You’re wrong about how to go about doing that, or at least you’re letting your emotions get the better of you.

When you answer name-calling with name-calling and tantrums with tantrums, you’re not resisting him. You’re mirroring him. You’re not diminishing him. You’re demeaning yourselves. Many voters don’t hear your arguments or the facts, which are on your side. They just wince at the din.

You permit them to see you as you see Trump: deranged. Why would they choose a different path if it goes to another ugly destination?

...

Never mind that [DeNiro] wrested the spotlight from the Parkland, Fla., teenagers, so that his negative message, not their positive one, was the big story. Never mind that he squandered a chance to model a bearing more dignified than Trump’s.

He made the blue wave look iffier and Trump 2020 stronger. Did you mean to be clapping for that?


Bruni has generally been quite good on TDS. Kudos to him.
   610. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5691663)
I'd be OK with forgetting the Civil War and letting the former Confederacy go its own way. That's either 11 or 14 states depending how strictly one counts.

I was born and raised in one of the hardest ones to count: Oklahoma. That is, Indian Territory, if you want to use 19th century language. I think that most if not all of the tribal governments tried to maintain neutrality, but significant numbers of their citizens fought on both sides. The further south you got within IT - for instance, the Choctaw Nation - the greater the Confederate fraction. There were elites among these tribes that owned slaves of African ancestry - one of the many traits they picked up from their neighbors before Andy Jackson engaged in ethnic cleansing. The last Confederate general to surrender in 1865 was a Cherokee named Stand Watie.
   611. zenbitz Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:48 PM (#5691668)
What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison.


Well what are you supposed to do when they close the FEMA camp you were guarding?
   612. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5691672)
But anger isn’t a strategy.


Seems to be working out for the new GOP.
   613. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5691673)

I was born and raised in one of the hardest ones to count: Oklahoma. That is, Indian Territory, if you want to use 19th century language. I think that most if not all of the tribal governments tried to maintain neutrality, but significant numbers of their citizens fought on both sides. The further south you got within IT - for instance, the Choctaw Nation - the greater the Confederate fraction. There were elites among these tribes that owned slaves of African ancestry - one of the many traits they picked up from their neighbors before Andy Jackson engaged in ethnic cleansing. The last Confederate general to surrender in 1865 was a Cherokee named Stand Watie.

==========================


So do you vote to keep OK or send them along with the others?
   614. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5691674)
I don't believe the President could NAME 7 states.
So for all the criticism of the things Trump isn't good at, we should give him credit for his special talents. Like speaking to the dead.
   615. zenbitz Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5691677)
It's the type of major Constitutional revision that can't be done through the Initiative process, but it apparently doesn't even purport to amend the State Constitution, attempting to achieve its goal by amending an obscure state statute.


Not 100% on crack house derived initiatives, but many state initiatives are amendments to the state constitution. Either that, law changes, or bond measures. They do require 66.6%, I think. It's also possible that a FLTB wrote the thing so forgot to mention it was an amendment.
   616. zenbitz Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5691679)
I don't believe the President has proposed abolishing 7 states, unlike you.


I'm pretty sure he'd be on board if you convinced him the extra 7 were how Obama got "57 states".
   617. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:58 PM (#5691682)
Trump does 10 things a week that are nuttier than Andy's proposal, and Clapper has never uttered a negative syllable. But THIS is where he draws the line? Yeah, bullshit.

Of course the other difference is that my Great White State "proposal" wasn't made seriously. I only wish I could say the same about Trump's bleats.
   618. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:58 PM (#5691683)
From noted SJW cuck Tom Nichols on twitter:

The President of the United States just gave an attaboy to Kim Jong Un for having the balls to take over his family’s management of a Stalinist dynasty running a starving prison camp.
Trump supporters will now tie themselves in knots explaining why it’s awesome that he did that.
   619. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:03 PM (#5691687)
So for all the criticism of the things Trump isn't good at, we should give him credit for his special talents. Like speaking to the dead.


Mocking Trump’s dishonesty only emboldens his followers. No, if you want to earn their respect and win their devotion, why not try to come up with justifications for this apparent gaffe? Show them how fair and open-minded you can be.
   620. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5691690)

What I don't understand is what kind of psychopath or sociopath would willingly sign up to run a private prison.
I don't understand why running a private prison says something worse to you than running a government one.
   621. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5691693)
Trump: Biggest enemy of America is the news media.

I bet you hippies won’t even consider this possibility.
   622. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:18 PM (#5691697)
The President of the United States just gave an attaboy to Kim Jong Un for having the balls to take over his family’s management of a Stalinist dynasty running a starving prison camp.
He also offered a variant on his prior "You think we're so innocent?" Putin defense to excuse Kim's mass murder.
   623. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5691698)
I'm in Florida, but in a part of Florida that was never part of the Confederacy, so I'd like to stay please.
   624. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5691703)
Dear Trumpholsters: your fat bald spray-tanned dunce of a hero needs you to improve the quantity and quality of your sycophancy. Watch and learn.

The president praised North Korean leader Kim Jong Un in a Wednesday interview, calling the head of the totalitarian regime a “smart guy” and a “great negotiator.”

“He’s a tough guy. Hey, when you take over a country, tough country, tough people, and you take it over from your father, I don’t care who you are, what you are, how much of an advantage you have, if you could do that at 27 years old, I mean, that’s one in 10,000 that could do that,” Trump told Fox News’ Bret Baier. “So he’s a very smart guy, he’s a great negotiator, but I think we understand each other.”


It gets even more impressive.

When Baier pointed out some of the unsavory things Jong Un is accused of doing in North Korea, Trump demurred.

“Yeah, but so have a lot of other people have done some really bad things,” Trump said. “I mean, I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.”


Think Trump could get through an interview without crowing about his intimate relationship with Vladimir Putin?

Well, I don’t want to spoil it all for you.

But the bar has been raised, Trumpholsters. I don’t think quoting Dilbert is going to cut it anymore.

   625. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5691704)
I'm in Florida, but in a part of Florida that was never part of the Confederacy, so I'd like to stay please.


No one gets out alive. We fought a war over it, we won, everyone stays. Even if they want to leave.
   626. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5691705)
CBS is reporting that Sarah Sanders and her top aides are on the verge of resigning. Appears to be a done deal, they are just finalizing their departures.

Also, Fox printed this today. Seems like last night's results spooked the #### out of the GOP.
   627. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5691706)
Comrade Cola to 622. Just wait in this line.
   628. DavidFoss Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5691716)
Also, Fox printed this today. Seems like last night's results spooked the #### out of the GOP.

Bannon said a couple of weeks ago that he wants the midterms to be a referendum on impeachment. He thinks it would step on any positive message that the Democrats would hope to push and that it would also turn the Trump base out to the polls.
   629. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5691721)
Bannon said a couple of weeks ago that he wants the midterms to be a referendum on impeachment. He thinks it would step on any positive message that the Democrats would hope to push and that it would also turn the Trump base out to the polls.


I think Bannon has pretty good political instincts but impeachment is going to drive blue turnout as well. I'm in the camp that doesn't really think Dems need to articulate much (at least for now) about actual governance and policy. Running anti-Trump is fine for now.
   630. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5691728)
How were you from a part of Florida that wasn't part of the Confederacy? The best I can think of is if you lived in a union fort that they controlled. But even with that the entire state succeeded from the union.
   631. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5691734)
Also, Fox printed this today. Seems like last night's results spooked the #### out of the GOP.


And that’s written by their liberal analyst.
   632. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5691736)

Also, Fox printed this today. Seems like last night's results spooked the #### out of the GOP.

For those who didn't follow the link, the article was entitled Trump is headed for impeachment if Republicans don't do these things to hold the House---and the author was ex-Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia. Aficionados of the Clinton years will recognize that name.
   633. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5691741)
CBS is reporting that Sarah Sanders and her top aides are on the verge of resigning. Appears to be a done deal, they are just finalizing their departures.

Obviously Sanders is only a parrot, but her removal from the scene would still be Washington's biggest aesthetic improvement this side of impeachment. You don't even need to get past her voice to say that.
   634. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5691743)
Sanders should have resigned as soon as she found out Trump lied to her and sent her out to repeat the lie. After that she had no credibility, and has been an essential lame duck since.

edit: not cool Andy.
   635. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5691746)
Not looking forward to scrolling past the conversation that 633 is bound to generate.
   636. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5691748)
Not looking forward to scrolling past the conversation that 633 is bound to generate.


Do not feed the troll, no matter how disgustingly sexist the troll may be.
   637. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5691751)
Chris Cuomo interviewing Corey Stewart, and asked him why he took money from a well known white supremacist: "I'll take money from anyone who supports me." And he (Stewart) didn't see anything wrong with that.
   638. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5691755)
Bannon said a couple of weeks ago that he wants the midterms to be a referendum on impeachment. He thinks it would step on any positive message that the Democrats would hope to push and that it would also turn the Trump base out to the polls.


I think Bannon has pretty good political instincts but impeachment is going to drive blue turnout as well. I'm in the camp that doesn't really think Dems need to articulate much (at least for now) about actual governance and policy. Running anti-Trump is fine for now.


He's got shitty instincts. If he had better instincts, he wouldn't be out of not just an administration job, but his breitbart job, too.

It amuses me that - as much as the Trumpkins just love to bring up the "Obama-Trump" voter, they completely ignore that those are almost certainly the exact same folks who didn't show up in 2010 and 2014... What, Trump has turned them into super-engaged mega midterm voters? Puhlease. So the guy who got 3 million fewer votes than his opponent in 2016 is going to lose them in 2018 as well.

More importantly, though - the 'drive blue turnout' isn't an "as well"... it's the dominant factor - and one for which we have an endless supply of special elections and polling data points. In virtually every corner of the country, in all kinds of elections - Democrats have overperformed... usually by a pretty damn good clip. Yeah, yeah - perhaps we'll get another trough in the congressional ballot gap that puts the Dem lead again at 'mere' mid-single digits (and Clapper will let us know, I'm sure) - but if you dig into the intensity? Even when the Dems were shedding a point here or there - they were still maintaining healthy double digit intensity gaps.

I understand the impulse by some Democrats to avoid the impeachment question... blah-blah news cycle "but what's your message?" blah-blah. It's a message that resonates with a very small sliver of the population that follows such stuff, all of whom might as well cast their ballots now anyway.

In a way - I think you can call it another of the unending Clapper kisses of death... Because my bet is that impeachment will be a primary issue this fall. Not because Tom Steyer is running ads or because Democrats make it one - but because the calendar says this:

Paul Manafort's trial will be underway. Michael Cohen seems virtually certain to be under indictment, if not a cooperating witness (and probably a cooperating witness for a couple months by that point). Mueller might very well wrap up by end of summer, too - not because Genius Guiliani says he will, but because plenty of signs point to an endgame. They're ready to sentence Papadopolous. Wrangling over Trump testimony has been going on for some time. And on and on it goes.

So yes, yes... by all means, Trumpkins - I wholeheartedly encourage you to make Trump's impeachment an issue. Shout it from the rooftops.
   639. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5691757)
I was born and raised in one of the hardest ones to count: Oklahoma. That is, Indian Territory, if you want to use 19th century language. I think that most if not all of the tribal governments tried to maintain neutrality, but significant numbers of their citizens fought on both sides. The further south you got within IT - for instance, the Choctaw Nation - the greater the Confederate fraction. There were elites among these tribes that owned slaves of African ancestry - one of the many traits they picked up from their neighbors before Andy Jackson engaged in ethnic cleansing. The last Confederate general to surrender in 1865 was a Cherokee named Stand Watie.


A very readable new book on the subject of the Watie family and the larger Cherokee Nation is Blood Moon by John Sedgwick.
   640. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5691758)
Not looking forward to scrolling past the conversation that 633 is bound to generate.

Do not feed the troll, no matter how disgustingly sexist the troll may be


Why, you think Andy doesn’t criticize fat ugly men too?
   641. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5691759)
Do not feed the troll, no matter how disgustingly sexist the troll may be.


Always cute when SBB practices his unique brand of "who me?" when it comes to trolling.

If it were me, I'd suggest he try it with some self-deprecating humor like "As this place's most legendary, universally acknowledged troll, trust me when I say..." that might get him the high fives he misses when the Trumpkins take a break.
   642. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5691763)
Holy ####, Kushner has apparently pushed Trump to pardon "many rappers"

Maybe he can pardon Tupac. Tupac can then stop pretending he is dead and make a comeback.
   643. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5691765)
I still still can’t believe Mike Huckaboob’s big-boned daughter is only 35. I guess someone has to balance out the aesthetic proportions of the universe so Sharon Stone could look so good at 50.
   644. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5691770)
I don't approve of sexism, but I do reserve the right to keep calling her Girl Spicey.

If it makes people feel any better, her replacement will either be titled "Boy Girl Spicey" or "New Girl Girl Spicey".
   645. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5691774)
I don't understand why running a private prison says something worse to you than running a government one.
Yeah, same thing applies, I guess, they are probably also sociopaths. One difference in my mind is that Government prison director is likely a career civil servant who is just a cog in the bureaucracy; he could justify it to himself as "someone has to do it". While a private industry ceo type could have found another way to make money, and chose to pursue incarceration for profit.
   646. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5691777)
Andy, you've fucked up twice here.

First of all, you're being an asshole to remark on Sanders' looks as if that's substantive. Dick move.

Secondly, you've given the quack, the Trump Tower Man of the People, and the Crapper something to comment on to avoid the fucking dumpster fire of the man and party they support.

Fail.
   647. Traderdave Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5691783)
Fox says Sanders angrily denies, so she'll probably hang on another week or so.
   648. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5691785)
Getting upset about making fun of Sarah's looks while children are ripped from their mothers' breasts seems a bit quaint imo. But, maybe I'm just cynical.

Also, there is a Trump mural at the illegal camps, and it's as glorious as you would expect.

   649. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5691788)
   650. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5691790)
CBS is reporting that Sarah Sanders and her top aides are on the verge of resigning. Appears to be a done deal, they are just finalizing their departures.

That's a misleading characterization. CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.
   651. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5691791)
Making fun of Sarah's looks while children are ripped from their mothers' breasts seems a bit quaint imo.


Quaint is not the word I would use.
   652. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5691792)
Don't have sex with men from 'different race' during World Cup, warns Russian politician

I had no idea YR was Russian.
   653. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5691795)
So...

I don't share the interest of others regarding "Boy, too bad Juannity isn't here to comment" - we know what he'd say "Gimme another love spanking, big orange daddy!"...
But didn't someone note how he "trusts Pompeo..."?

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo lost his cool Wednesday with reporters who pressed him on the vague agreement President Donald Trump reached with North Korea in Singapore this week.

During a visit to South Korea Wednesday, Pompeo bristled at and called “ludicrous” questions about why a document Trump and North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un signed on Tuesday did not include language that Pompeo has called essential to any nuclear deal.

When asked how a nuclear agreement would be verified, Pompeo snapped: “Don’t say silly things… It’s not productive.”

The exchange underscored the lack of clarity — seemingly even within the Trump administration — about precisely what Trump and Kim had agreed to in Singapore, as well as the huge challenge of disarming North Korea at anything like the speed promised by Trump, who boasted on Twitter Wednesday that there is “no longer a Nuclear Threat” from the country, which experts say possesses as many as 60 nuclear warheads.
   654. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:34 PM (#5691798)
CBS is reporting that Sarah Sanders and her top aides are on the verge of resigning. Appears to be a done deal, they are just finalizing their departures.
CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.


See Andy? Besides being tasteless, this is why your post was bad. It allows the Trumpkins to address your idiocy rather than the real issues. Which they can't of course, so they wait for someone to shoot themselves in the foot, which you did. Congratulations.

To Clapper: I don't expect a serious response, but this is meant as a rhetorical: Do you really think it's a good idea for a president to have a press secretary on the job who has admitted the president lied to her about a trivial matter and sent her out to repeat the trivial lie?
   655. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5691800)
That's a misleading characterization. CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.


That's our Clapper...

In two years, he's never uttered a single word of disapproval over anything his Dear Leader has said on the sexist front. Not once. Not a peep.

Such a ridiculous hack...
   656. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5691802)
Quaint is not the word I would use.


I guess just oudated in the time of Trump ####. Like Hillary got ripped to shreds by a million sexist attacks and look what it produced. It's asymetric warfare and a couple mild (at best) softballs here hardly seems worth complaining about.

That's a misleading characterization. CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.


Fair enough, which is why I linked the primary text. I'm a message board poster, not some schmuck with a J school degree with Objectivity to maintain.

As for her schedule, things have a way of getting sped up in this WH wrt staff turnover, especially when the ship is listing a little more in the chop.
   657. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5691806)
Crapper is nothing if not predictable.
   658. Howie Menckel Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5691812)
can we all just agree not to make nasty comments about irrelevant issues such as the physical appearance of women - or men?

it has nothing to do with the validity of their comments, so in an ideal world anyone who "went there" would properly be seen as resorting to a lame outpost, instead of addressing the substance of the comments.

I will now commence with the first BBTF "WHATABOUT GAMES!"

I haven't seen those Hunger Games movies except in commercials - but how many more movies do I last with this attitude? and are they still making them?
   659. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5691814)
That's a misleading characterization. CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.

Fair enough, which is why I linked the primary text. I'm a message board poster, not some schmuck with a J school degree with Objectivity to maintain.

No, your #626 didn't link to the CBS story. The only link in #626 is to the Fox story on impeachment, which was a separate matter that you raised.

   660. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5691818)
really? well ####. beer on me clapper.
   661. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5691819)
can we all just agree not to make nasty comments about irrelevant issues such as the physical appearance of women - or men?

it has nothing to do with the validity of their comments, so in an ideal world anyone who "went there" would properly be seen as resorting to a lame outpost, instead of addressing the substance of the comments.

I will now commence with the first BBTF "WHATABOUT GAMES!"


No, we cannot.

We cannot because this is a thread to discuss politics and all things regarding the political world.

We cannot because the undeniable center of the American political universe is its President.

That Presidents is more than anything else - nothing but a collection of "nasty comments about irrelevant issues such as the physical appearance". Everybody knows it. It's not really open to debate.

It's not reasonable to expect the discourse on a topic to consistently rise above the centerpiece of that topic.

When he's dispatched with, we can discuss how decorum should make a triumphant return.

If people want that, I just spelled out how we can get there. One shouldn't bother trying to swim gracefully while wearing cement boots. One should just try to get rid of the cement boots in whatever messy, destructive, ungainly way one can.
   662. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5691820)
CBS is reporting that Sarah Sanders and her top aides are on the verge of resigning. Appears to be a done deal, they are just finalizing their departures.
CBS is reporting that Sanders is planning on departing at the end of the year. If she follows that schedule, the sexists here will still have plenty of time to embarrass themselves further.

See Andy? Besides being tasteless, this is why your post was bad. It allows the Trumpkins to address your idiocy rather than the real issues. Which they can't of course, so they wait for someone to shoot themselves in the foot, which you did. Congratulations.

First, my apologies for stating the obvious, which is that Sanders has an incredibly irritating tone of voice.

Second, are those who take offense about my crack about Sanders equally offended by the thousands of comments that have been made here about Trump's lardlike physical appearance, or the comments made about Hillary Clinton's looks? If not, what's the difference, other than an amusing set of ad hoc standards?

Third, in case you hadn't noticed it, Clapper has yet to address a real issue since he's been posting here. He's beyond embarrassment, and I'm no more responsible for his digressions and evasions than the odious Sidney Blumenthal.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting upset about making fun of Sarah's looks while children are ripped from their mothers' breasts seems a bit quaint imo. But, maybe I'm just cynical.

You and me both. And gee, I wonder how we got that way.

But I'll make Clapper and all the other little Trumpkins here a deal: The minute they utter a single negative thought about Trump's and Sessions' policies that rip parents from their children at the border,** I'll refrain from making any more comments about that loathsome toady who parrots her boss and ducks questions every time she addresses the media.

** Or about Trump's serial sexism that involves a lot more than an occasional comment about one particularly creepy woman.
   663. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5691821)
Second, are those who take offense about my crack about Sanders equally offended by the thousands of comments that have been made here about Trump's lardlike physical appearance, or the comments made about Hillary Clinton's looks? If not, what's the difference, other than an amusing set of ad hoc standards?


Good to know you hold yourself to no higher standard than our POS president. Is that what you are going for?
   664. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5691822)
I guess just oudated in the time of Trump ####. Like Hillary got ripped to shreds by a million sexist attacks and look what it produced. It's asymetric warfare and a couple mild (at best) softballs here hardly seems worth complaining about.

It's called gaming the refs, and WRT that little enterprise these guys are the pros in their profession. They'll bring up a single comment about Sarah Sanders forever while totally ignoring every sexist comment and action uttered and performed by their beloved president.
   665. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5691824)
Yet you carry on as if Trump did something stupid.

You are, as always, arguing in bad faith. Exercising executive clemency¹ based on celebrity appeals is stupid.


No. If the person is deserving of a pardon executive clemency, then it doesn't matter who made the appeal, celebrity or no.

It may not be an ideal way to do this but any deserving pardon is a good one and not stupid at all.

(Indeed, it can't really be dignified with the term "policy" at all; it's just whim.)


Um, policy was your term. I implicitly objected to it, which is why I put it in scare quotes.
   666. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5691825)
Second, are those who take offense about my crack about Sanders equally offended by the thousands of comments that have been made here about Trump's lardlike physical appearance, or the comments made about Hillary Clinton's looks? If not, what's the difference, other than an amusing set of ad hoc standards?

Good to know you hold yourself to no higher standard than our POS president. Is that what you are going for?


Let's see: I make one indirect comment about Sarah Sanders' looks,** and that means I'm on the same level as Donald Trump. Got it.

** The only direct comment I made was about her irritating voice.
   667. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5691827)
They might have been using Kardashian for that. But even if so -- even if Trump didn't care about Alice Marie Johnson per se -- they weren't "just" using her for that, which was the original accusation. If they were "just" using Kardashian for that, Alice Marie Johnson wouldn't have gotten her pardon.

That doesn't even remotely follow. I guess you're just showing confusion over how to read Trump. You have no idea. Granting Kardashian's request was the press and photo op.


Sorry, wrong again. Arceneaux already defined the terms, when he TDSed wrong about what Trump was going to do. Again I quote what Arceneaux wrote:

And in an expletive-laden piece in Complex magazine, Michael Arceneaux wrote, “Those folks are unlikely to do anything about Alice Marie Johnson. They just wanted a photo op and much-needed good press. Kardashian meant well, bless her heart, but I hate that she provided them with that.”


Emphasis added, so that you can try to follow along.
   668. Howie Menckel Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5691829)
per 661, you may well have won the day.

I have basically morphed into an Amish person. Never been on Facebook, rarely go to movies, no violent TV shows, not eager to engage in verbal or other political combat.

that point of view has never made the Amish superior or inferior, by definition.

I just wonder if there is room left for Amish-types
   669. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5691830)
** The only direct comment I made was about her irritating voice.


first of all, bullshit.

Obviously Sanders is only a parrot, but her removal from the scene would still be Washington's biggest aesthetic improvement this side of impeachment. You don't even need to get past her voice to say that.


Second, even if it were true, and it isn't, it's poor form, and allows others to dismiss your and our arguments out of hand. You are the useful idiot that you like to accuse others of being.
   670. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5691833)
Is this the ABC - now separately confirmed by several orgs - "likely to" or is it actually a statement by either Cohen or SDNY prosecutors?

WSJ is hedging, they had a separate report this morning saying he's still undecided. I don't have any reason to not believe the ABC reports. Seems like a lot of smoke that he was about to flip.


If Cohen has indeed "flipped" it wouldn't be the least bit surprising, so it's hard to figure out what all the cheers from the TDSers are about. They're pursuing him for state crimes. As we know that means that Trump wouldn't be able to pardon him. So if he's looking at serious jail time he would naturally flip.......

.......presuming he has something to sell. It wouldn't be surprising if he has money laundering type crimes by Trump to sell. Whether he has anything collusion related -- which was supposed to be the point of all of this -- remains to be seen.
   671. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5691836)
Obviously Sanders is only a parrot, but her removal from the scene would still be Washington's biggest aesthetic improvement this side of impeachment. You don't even need to get past her voice to say that.

Second, even if it were true, and it isn't, it's poor form, and allows others to dismiss your and our arguments out of hand. You are the useful idiot that you like to accuse others of being.


Serious question: When have any of the Trumpkins around here ever seriously addressed any of the serious arguments against Trump put forth by me, you, zonk, the Mouse, BDC, art wall, or anyone else you can think of? All they ever do is to ignore, ignore, and divert, divert. Much as we (usually) try to be respectful, it's like hitting your head against a stone wall, and you know it.

Here, you try a little experiment: Post an article like the one I did earlier today in #512, and see how much response you get. At best you'll get Ray spouting one of his Flat Earth theories in rebuttal, but more likely you'll get no response at all. This is what I'm talking about, and you're not going to get any better response from any of them by pretending Sarah Sanders is something she isn't.
   672. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5691837)
Whether he has anything collusion related -- which was supposed to be the point of all of this -- remains to be seen.


Is it your opinion that if other crimes are uncovered, they should be ignored?
   673. Jack Keefe Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5691838)
I thonk Spice Girl is cute Al. She probly does not no I am a Live. Thats rotten Al every 1 says a women is a Beest and those of us who Aperciat her are the Ceylon Maturity. Al I may have had a few too many vodka & Mr Pibbs tonight but tell no 1 & I will get through this Unpurse sieved.
   674. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5691839)
Serious question: When have any of the Trumpkins around here ever seriously addressed any of the serious arguments against Trump put forth by me, you, zonk, the Mouse, BDC, art wall, or anyone else you can think of? All they ever do is to ignore, ignore, and divert, divert. Much as we (usually) try to be respectful, it's like hitting your head against a stone wall, and you know it.


Because you frequently give them distractions to argue against.
   675. OCF Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5691840)
The Ceylon Maturity? Sri it ain't so!
   676. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5691841)
.......presuming he has something to sell.


*Snort*

Yeah, I mean, what are the chances?

   677. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5691842)
Obviously Sanders is only a parrot, but her removal from the scene would still be Washington's biggest aesthetic improvement this side of impeachment. You don't even need to get past her voice to say that.


Again, the left's blatant sexism is one of the really interesting things to come out of the Trump era.

The folks that can't stop lecturing everyone else about sexism can't stop engaging in it themselves.
   678. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5691843)
This is what I'm talking about, and you're not going to get any better response from any of them by pretending Sarah Sanders is something she isn't.


Mocking Sanders for what she says is fair. mocking her for her looks is not.
   679. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:55 PM (#5691844)
Again, the left's blatant sexism is one of the really interesting things to come out of the Trump era.


F$ck you Ray. Would you for once in your life read ahead before pontificating?
   680. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:58 PM (#5691845)
Elegy...

Put a blond combover on the elephant. Take down the pictures of Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.

It’s over. It’s Donald Trump’s GOP.

The anti-Trump candidates are fleeing, and the ones who stick around are getting trampled. The chill has gone out among whoever’s left: there’s no more speaking up, and if there is, it’s just for the sake of a speech, a protest quote that quickly disappears.

They chalk it up to party loyalty, or staying unified for the midterms. They say they still believe in the principles, but they don’t tend to do more than say the words. Then, when the microphones are off, they confide. They complain. They nurse fantasies that there’s a reckoning coming, that maybe this will all end with the Republican Party nominating someone like Eisenhower. Or at least like Paul Ryan.

And each time they watch another of their own go down, they wince, try to move on. Don’t look back. Try to forget.

* * *

Deal with it, said Corey Stewart, the anti-immigrant, pro-Confederate symbols, new Republican nominee for Senate in Virginia: “This is the new Republican Party.”

As for the people resisting, Stewart said, “They’re dinosaurs. They need to wake up and understand that President Trump has fundamentally remade the Republican Party.”

* * *

“People become disenchanted with the way democracies work. A strongman comes along, says, ‘You’ve got to give up some freedoms, but if you do, I’ll take care of these problems for you,’” Sanford said late Tuesday in his concession speech. “We’ve got to stay true to this notion of the democratic principles that our founding fathers laid out.”

* * *

Then there’s what’s happening every day. The party of free trade has gone protectionist. The party of spreading freedom and never negotiating with dictators is now full of praise for chumming it up with Kim Jong-un. The party of fighting deficits has blown a trillion dollar hole in the budget.

Family values and moralizing have been replaced by porn stars and Twitter tantrums. Trump goes to war with the G-7, and the sum of the Republican reaction is a statement from John McCain and a few comments on Sunday TV from Maine Sen. Susan Collins.

There aren’t committee hearings. There aren’t bills put on the floor. There aren’t votes that force the president’s hand. It’s well into cliché that the only people who speak out against Trump are the ones who’ve already been chased out of reelection and are heading to their cushy cable and lobbying gigs.

* * *

Flake, along with fellow Trump critic Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), is trying to check Trump on trade, but GOP leaders have rebuffed them. He described the GOP mentality as: “Don’t show a fissure, pretend we’re all together.”

They see what happens to people who speak up. They don’t want it to happen to them.
   681. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5691846)
Sanders should have resigned as soon as she found out Trump lied to her and sent her out to repeat the lie. After that she had no credibility, and has been an essential lame duck since.


Sounds a lot like what Obama did to Susan Rice.
   682. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:03 AM (#5691848)
Not looking forward to scrolling past the conversation that 633 is bound to generate.


Yes, the people to "scroll past" would be those pointing out the sexism, rather than the sexist himself (who happens to also lecture this board 12 times a day about the Racism of Jeff Sessions).
   683. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5691849)
Yes, the people to "scroll past" would be those pointing out the sexism, rather than the sexist himself (who happens to also lecture this board 12 times a day about the Racism of Jeff Sessions).


For the love of God ray, you are embarrassing yourself.
   684. Zonk is a cagey fellow Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5691850)

Again, the left's blatant sexism is one of the really interesting things to come out of the Trump era.

The folks that can't stop lecturing everyone else about sexism can't stop engaging in it themselves.


In a world where you've become the OTP's foremost purveyor of youth culture, fashion trends, and sneakers - per your now 3rd day of obsession with one of the columnists in Complex magazine...

I'd say the bar for "really interesting things to come out of the Trump era" is far higher than you think it is.
   685. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:28 AM (#5691852)
Giuliani: "I don't know what Mueller's got left... The Manafort case looks like it's falling apart... You take out the Manafort case which may go out on lack of authorization -- and now this witness tampering, and I can't even figure it out..."

The list of legal issues Rudy "can't even figure out" has gotten quite long.

   686. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:39 AM (#5691853)
Rudy: "A sitting president can't be indicted. Nobody disputes that."

Turley does. And plenty of others.

Rudy could just say "Many academics don't dispute that." That would be an honest statement. Instead he moves his lips.
   687. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 14, 2018 at 12:53 AM (#5691855)
Again, the left's blatant sexism is one of the really interesting things to come out of the Trump era.
The right nominated and voted for Donald Trump, so the right has no business lecturing anyone on sexism.
   688. zenbitz Posted: June 14, 2018 at 01:02 AM (#5691857)
Who cares about official mouthpieces like Sanders at all? Her job is to say what the President tells her to say.

It's our job to ignore it.
   689. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 14, 2018 at 02:00 AM (#5691860)
Unpopular opinion time: If you are going to make fun of men's appearance/looks, then you should not shy away from doing the same to women.

Now of course ideally, you should do neither. But I can't say I haven't made fun of the bloated cheeto with flaccid hair. Or the original pyjama boy Blake Farenthold. Or well a bunch of other guys. And if you are going to do that, and then declare the same kind of comments towards women as out of bounds... well I think that is actually the more sexist position.

(I say this having no actual idea what Sanders actually looks like, since I have decided to pay zero attention to that pathetic piece of theatre probably 7 WH press secretary's ago, and I only see references to her in this thread)
   690. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 02:41 AM (#5691861)
MAGA!


This feels like something from a William Gibson cyberpunk dystopia novel, where the government has become so weak and useless, private corporations have been taking over the basic upkeep of the nation. But it’s not a William Gibson novel, there’s no plucky protagonist with some sort of cybernetic implant, it’s just America in 2018, with crumbling roads that Domino’s has decided to fix. For the sake of the pizzas.

Domino’s is tired of their innocent pizzas, who only wish to serve humankind, being beaten all to hell by poorly-maintained roads. They even have a website that shows, in graphic, pizza-box-cam detail, what brutal hell pizzas are put through when their delivery vehicle impacts a pothole.

It’s not pretty.

To remedy this, Domino’s has been hiring work crews to repair potholes in a number of cities, including Burbank, California (five holes fixed), Bartonville, Texas (eight holes), an impressive 40 holes fixed in Milford, Delaware, and an astounding 150 potholes filled in Athens, Georgia.

It’s not entirely altruistic, of course. Domino’s tags every filled pothole with their logo and the tagline “OH YES WE DID.”


Jalopnik
   691. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 03:01 AM (#5691862)
Second, are those who take offense about my crack about Sanders equally offended by the thousands of comments that have been made here about Trump's lardlike physical appearance


They aren’t, and the reason is obvious: sexism. Their sexism.

I’ve called Donald Trump “fat” dozens of times. Because he is. He’s not as fat as Rush Limbaugh, who’s a real porker, or Chris Christie, who looks like a Ziplock bag filled with water, but Trump is obviously fat (and bald, etc)

Nobody cares about stating those obvious truths, but heaven forbid you comment on a fat woman with a strabismus who got a high-profile media job because of nepotism. Then the ACTUAL sexists all rush to squeeze into their ill-fitting White Knight armor to defend m’lady’s honor. It’s funny, and transparent, and will inevitably lead to someone threatening me with their katana.

I’d tell you newly-minted chivalrics to pull the other one, but as I recall the idiom it’s inherently sexist and I’d hate to see you triggered twice on one page.

Edit -I owe 689 a Diet Coke.
   692. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 03:05 AM (#5691863)
Again, the left's blatant sexism is one of the really interesting things to come out of the Trump era.

The right nominated and voted for Donald Trump, so the right has no business lecturing anyone on sexism.


Yes but this is Little Lord Fauntleray here. If you outlawed concern trolling, virtue signaling, and transparently-feigned outrage he’d have nothing left to offer except odes to Kelsey Grammer and Jack Klugman.
   693. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 03:09 AM (#5691864)
Don't have sex with men from 'different race' during World Cup, warns Russian politician

I had no idea YR was Russian.


I am actually! Grew up in a house where the borscht flowed freely, although I never developed a taste for the stuff.

I am not a politician however. You may have noticed my impolitic comments on...pretty much every thread.
   694. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 03:34 AM (#5691866)
he’d have nothing left to offer except odes to Kelsey Grammer and Jack Klugman.


It certainly wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, but I think you meant Jack Lord, not Klugman.

Otherwise, carry on ...
   695. manchestermets Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:34 AM (#5691870)
Unpopular opinion time: If you are going to make fun of men's appearance/looks, then you should not shy away from doing the same to women.

Now of course ideally, you should do neither. But I can't say I haven't made fun of the bloated cheeto with flaccid hair. Or the original pyjama boy Blake Farenthold. Or well a bunch of other guys. And if you are going to do that, and then declare the same kind of comments towards women as out of bounds... well I think that is actually the more sexist position.


Probably better than deciding to make fun of someone's appearance or not based on sex, is whether they themselves routinely do it. Trump does, so it's fair to say he's leaving himself open to such attacks. I don't know if that's a habit of Sanders - if so, then go for it, if not then it's uncalled for.
   696. Lassus Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:42 AM (#5691871)
Second, are those who take offense about my crack about Sanders

I didn't take offense, I said you were being a dick. And a distraction.


equally offended by the thousands of comments that have been made here about Trump's lardlike physical appearance

JUANABOUT TRUMP!??!!?

This is the reverse racism argument, which I figured out was invalid when I was 11 years old. Congratulations, you're Ray now.



Unpopular opinion time: If you are going to make fun of men's appearance/looks, then you should not shy away from doing the same to women.

See above. There are historical and contextual reasons why these are not simply the same thing. It is frankly bizarre to hand-wave that away.



See, Andy? Look what's being talked about now.
   697. Lassus Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:50 AM (#5691872)
I have basically morphed into an Amish person.

Sadly, for those of us involved in animal rescue, the Amish stopped being an idyllic curiosity a long time ago. They run a ton of awful, abusive puppy mills.
   698. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:10 AM (#5691873)
Serious question: When have any of the Trumpkins around here ever seriously addressed any of the serious arguments against Trump put forth by me,


You've never put forward a single "serious" one, only reductionist, exaggerated, over-the-top ones no one could possibly take seriously. No one takes DeNiro's or Bee's rants "seriously," either.
   699. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:12 AM (#5691874)
I’ve called Donald Trump “fat” dozens of times.


But you're a clown.

OK -- a jester.
   700. Joe Bivens will never admit, will make some excuse Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:32 AM (#5691877)
Ole Smokey Eye's shining humanizing moment came when she cried answering the little kid reading the question about how he could be made to feel safe at school with all the gun violence. Besides that, she was/is a useless (to us) waste of oxygen.
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